0:10Nothing illustrates the inversion of the international and moral order more than the genocide in Gaza and the shipment of billions of weapons by Western nations, especially the United States, to sustain it. Part of this inversion is the unrelenting persecution of those who denounce the genocide, risk their lives to halt it, and call for the rule of law. But the rule of law is buried under the rubble in Gaza, and because of that, Israel is able, with barely a word of protest by Western nations, Spain being one of the few exceptions, to abduct 180 Samidoun flotilla crews 500 nautical miles from Gaza off the coast of Crete.
0:51This open disdain for the law of the sea was accompanied by the usual Israeli brutality. Flotilla members were denied food, drenched in seawater, punched, kicked, dragged across decks with their hands tied, and shot at with rubber bullets and live ammunition. Eventually, crew members were transferred to Crete, where 31 were hospitalized. Two high-profile members of the flotilla, the Brazilian organizer Thiago Avila and the Spaniard Zaher Abu Kishk, who is of Palestinian descent, were kidnapped and taken to Israel. They were blindfolded, forced to lie on their stomachs, and beaten with such severity that Thiago lost
1:32consciousness twice. When they appeared in an Israeli court, the bruises on their faces were visible. Thiago had trouble lifting his right arm. The two men were held in solitary confinement and went on hunger strike. They were accused of supporting terrorism and illegal activity. Joining me to discuss resistance to the genocide, the importance of the flotillas, and the egregious Israeli violations of international law and humanitarian law is Tiago Avila.
2:03Um before we begin with this latest you know this is not the first time you have been held of course Tiago by the Israelis layout the history of the flotillas and the importance of the flotillas.
2:16>> Well Chris first of all thank you so much for having me here. It's very important that we speak about what's happening in Gaza all the time.
2:24Um I'm one of thousands of people that have been involved throughout the years with the flotillas with the solidarity movement for Palestine who have been answering the call the Palestinian to to continue talking about eight decades of genocide and ethnic cleansing and apartheid colonial state and how to defeat this racist and supremacist ideology called Zionism. Uh it's very important the work that you do as well sharing the truth in a moment in a in history where the truth is so scarce to see. So the flotillas they are part of this movement that imagine eight decades of genocide and ethnic cleansing but Gaza itself has
3:00been under siege for 19 years by sea by land and by air and for 18 years there were attempts to break the siege and the first five attempts in 2008 they actually made to break this this siege.
3:13Uh two small fishing boats they made it there they did the volunteer work they brought the food and the aid all the things that they were bringing but then after the fifth mission Israel started intercepting every single one of them.
3:25Some by in this illegal kidnapping and others by attacking them and even killing 10 people in the Mavi Marmara in 2010 others by sabotaging the boats >> Let let me just stop you there Tiago because people may not understand. This was a Turkish ship and Israeli commandos uh repelled onto the ship and I mean explain what happened.
3:50>> Yeah it was actually like this that after 2008 December 2008 the first interception started and in 2010 after a few failed attempts that they were intercepting the boats or attacking the boats people decided that they needed to go with a flotilla. So they came with several boats including a very big boat called the Mavi Marmara. They left some from Greece, some from Istanbul and when they were approaching Gaza the Israeli commandos they unit shed at 13 is an elite unit of the Israeli Navy. They attacked the boats and killed nine people immediately six of them were shot in the back and another one was put in a
4:30coma for four years and then eventually died. More than 50 other people were shot with live ammunition and the Israelis said that they were attacked that's why they had to shoot and assassinate people in their self-defense and that's what the the mainstream media did disclose to the world but of course it was a lie. There was an United Nation investigation that showed that six of these 10 people got executed from shots from behind and they were actually shooting before they even boarded the boat. So there there's a documentary about this called the truth lost at sea with the single amount of footage that managed to
5:05escape the detention and the kidnapping so this shows the truth. It shows the truth about this attack and every single attempt since then have been either attacked again by bombs like when they bombed our boats in Malta by bureaucratic warfare then when they pressure the governments to not allow us to sail or insurance companies or or flag states that give us a flag to sail international waters or have been sabotaged when they put ropes in the propellers when they pierce the hole of the boats when they try to put acid in our water tanks and so many other things and of course the interception and the
5:41illegal kidnapping. So it's been more than 20 missions since then attempting to break the siege with people from all over the world and have been intercepting one after the other. After the pandemic and the after the escalation of genocide, we understood that it was time to do bigger missions.
5:58So, we decided to do an emergency mission leaving from Turkey with three big boats that in April 2024 was ready to sail with more than 30 countries represented, more than 1,000 people, more than 5,500 tons of humanitarian aid. And they did put up a hybrid warfare and pressure the government of Guinea-Bissau to remove the flag. We were not allowed to sail this time. So, we kept on going. Then we tried to sail from Malta and they bombed our boat in Malta in May 2025. Then in June, we managed to sail with the Madeline as small boat of 12 people, myself, Greta, Rima Hassan, Yasmine and eight other people from six different
6:37countries and we got intercepted at 120 nautical miles. And then the Handala boat went again and tried to get there and got intercepted again. And then we went with the Global South Flotilla in October 2025 with then with 42 boats with more than 400 people and we also got intercepted, but the boats got very close. Some boats got 24 nautical miles to Gaza and there was a huge global uprising increase where even a general strike happened in Italy. The governments was so cornered that they had to take measures against the the Israeli apartheid regime. They had to Some of them recognized the Palestinian state. Some of them applied
7:17sanctions. Some of them even sent military vessels to accompany our boats up to a way close but not close enough to get to Gaza.
7:25And after October, we decided that we needed to keep on going. We were planning for this next mission. And then on this next mission, we suffered another attack and huge violations this time. But that's the history of the flotillas which is important to say. People from all over the world, like many other non-violent direct action solidarity missions, trying to do what is necessary when the states don't do enough, when the international community does not do enough, it's everyday people who need to do. Like we say, when governments fail, we sail.
7:58>> But they're seizing these boats in international waters. It's a clear violation of the law of the sea.
8:06>> Yes, it is. We are talking about a rogue state, Chris. Country that is committing genocide, is committing ethnic cleansing, is structured in an apartheid state, you know, in the whole historical Palestine. So, for the level of violations that they continuously apply against the Palestinian people, this is just another one. But the the thing is that when they intercept an international mission, they are violating different laws because there is law against colonization, there is law against the violations that they do against Palestinians as well. But the law of the sea says that when you're in
8:41international waters, no government can intercept any boat, especially when you have the right of innocent passage like we did. And other than that, the international humanitarian law and the International Court of Justice in the case opened by South Africa against Israel for the crime of genocide, they made a provisional rulings in June 2024 that stated that no country, especially Israel, but any other country as well, cannot stop any humanitarian mission heading to Gaza. And when they do that, they're not only violating the law of the seas, but they're violating the biggest judicial court in the entire
9:17planet. And they really don't care, and that's why we need to make them accountable.
9:22>> Before we go into what happened to you in this latest flotilla and your detention, uh explain why. I mean, you know you're going to get intercepted. Um it's almost certain.
9:36Uh but you keep pushing anyway. What what why?
9:39>> Focus, when we are part of this, first of all, we don't understand that the flotillas are the only tactic. For example, spreading the truth like you do is a very important way of promoting a better world. Like doing demonstrations, doing boycott campaigns, the people very brave disrupting the arms factories, people doing all types of grassroots movement of awareness. It's all part of the same process. We don't see the flotillas as something apart from this global uprising with a multiplicity of tactics. But the flotillas themselves, they have a special place in people's consciousness because it sets the alarm
10:13clock. It makes people move because people uh sometimes they get stuck in the blockade of information from the mainstream media, in the boycott, in the censorship from the big techs in their algorithms, uh with the silence of the states, the complicit states. So, the flotillas they have a way of showing a big mobilization and a sense of urgency that puts some things to move. So, that's why the flotillas are important.
10:38When we sailed this last mission, we were sailing with our around 7 months of the so-called ceasefire on Gaza. And this so-called ceasefire didn't really materialize for the Palestinian people. 7 months and people were still getting killed, aid was still being hindered, the land was being stolen from the Palestinians, and their plans for the region was far from peace, was being ruled by war criminals like Netanyahu and Donald Trump, was being ruled by billionaires from the big techs with techno-authoritarian models of dystopic models of working in Gaza with in artificial intelligence and drones
11:15shooting people randomly. Uh so, very bad things and and the industrial military complex profiting from war, from every bomb that falls into a Palestinian children's heads. There was someone profiting at the end of that quarter. So, the the perspectives of this so-called ceasefire were dire for the Palestinian people. That's why we understood that we had to to sail again.
11:36Not because we wanted it, because we were doing all the other tactics as well. We were mobilizing all the other fronts, but the flotillas they had a way of breaking the silence about this. And so, we understood that it was necessary to sail, even despite the fact that the biggest probability was to be intercepted. But, we don't actually sail to get intercepted because we really cannot tell, Chris, when is going to be the moment when the world is going to rise up, when the pressure is going to be so big under with the complicit states that they're going to break their complicity. And the pressure
12:08is going to be so big in the Zionist regime that even themselves they will not be able to pay the political cost of committing this war crime again, of intercepting a peaceful, non-violent humanitarian flotilla, of denying the right of the Palestinian people to access and control their own borders, like international law says. So, we never know. It's like we we are seeing a wall, and the Palestinians have been hitting this wall of colonization for decades. And we go side by side with them, shoulder to shoulder, hitting this wall as well. We never know which is going to be the strike that is going to
12:38break this wall apart, and then people will have their rights. We just need to be there with them, banging on this wall, hitting on this wall, until this wall collapse. So, we never know which is going to be the flotilla, the blockade, the boycott, which is going to be the action that will consolidate in the victory of the Palestinian people in their indigenous resistance and through self-determination and sovereignty. We we actually cannot tell. So, we don't sail to be intercepted, but we sail to maintain consistency in solidarity. We never know when it's going to going to break this horrific siege.
13:10>> You're from Brazil. What's What's the message that the genocide has sent to the global south?
13:17>> Well, I believe the most important message, Chris, is that nobody is safe.
13:23That the Zionist and the imperialist system they can go very far. The total impunity that they committed this genocide in Gaza, they understood that they could escalate to Lebanon. They could escalate to Iraq, to Syria, to Yemen, to Iran, to Venezuela. They could bomb a country in Latin America, kidnap the president.
13:44They could create a naval blockade in Cuba. They could threaten any attempt of sovereignty from Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, or any other country. They could interfere with elections everywhere. So, it set a precedent, a very dangerous precedent for humanity. And it showed that whoever thought that the genocide was only about Palestinians was very, very wrong. What we were saying for years in the flotillas is that the destiny of the Palestinian people is most likely the destiny of all humanity.
14:14We've seen the countries that were shown as the beacons of civil liberties, of democracy, and human rights arresting people by carrying signs, arresting people by using watermelon flags, arresting people by posting on social media. So, it broke completely the mask of the global north as the the people who the governments who should preserve an idea of civility, the beacons of civilization. So, the Palestinian people really they actually show us the lenses to see society as it really is, but also show us the map that there's no way out of this except for resisting, except for mobilizing.
14:53>> So, let's talk about the latest. This, as I said, is not the first time you've been detained by the Israelis. From the descriptions that I read, this was worse.
15:04You're what, 600 nautical miles from Gaza, and you can take it from from there. What happened?
15:12>> Well, first of all, we weren't at that moment of the mission, Chris, that we weren't not going yet to Gaza. Our mission goes a long way. so we sail from Barcelona on May the 15th, and we were sailing from Barcelona to Sicily, where we got more boats, more people, where we trained more our teams, and then we kept on going. When we left Sicily, we were going to to pass by Greece, where more boats would be joining us, and then we would stop in Turkey. And in Turkey, we would train again all of our team, bring more boats, bring more people, do more mobilizations. Some people that went just for the journey all the way there,
15:52they would disembark, and more people who are going for the final leg, they would join our boats and would go come with us together.
15:59But, uh we actually there was a storm brewing in the Mediterranean. We needed to escape the storm, so we decided that we would anchor in in Greece. We actually needed that because our boats are old. The our financial capacity is not is not infinite, so we have old boats, we have as as many boats as we can, but very old boats in bad quality, so we had to stop for the safety of our participants as well. So, we were going to Greece and uh at the island of Crete, and then we started receiving radio messages, and we started receiving uh some boats reporting malfunction in their communications, until we lost the
16:38signal with one of our boats. And then we understood that there was something odd happening. And then some other boats reported seeing ribs coming with soldiers to their boats, and then we know very well what it is. It is an interception. And and then we said, from the steering committee, we said, "Prepare for interception. The boats that can head to Greek territorial waters." Despite the fact that Greek Greece is a is a complicit state, and they were probably uh totally involved in this, and what what the reports we see from the people who went to to Crete is that they were totally involved, totally aware of what was going on as
17:12well. But then, we said, "Try to get into territorial waters." And for the other ones, they were coming and intercepting. They actually managed to intercept 22 boats.
17:23We were around 50 boats at that time.
17:25So, 30 something they actually got to greet.
17:29>> Let me just stop you, Tiago. Tiago, explain how an interception works.
17:33>> Well, in what we call an interception is actually a kidnapping. They come and they come with big military vessels nearby us. From these military vessels, they deploy some ribs, uh some small uh rubber boats with full of commandos, around 20 commandos full of uh rifles and no type of modern warfare gear. A lot of drones also accompany the action.
17:57And they come and they board our boats with one or two ribs. Once they board our boats with the barrel of the gun, they they surrender everybody. They they take control of the boat. Sometimes they move people to another place, to inside the boats, to they take control, sometimes they they steer the boat all the way to Israel to Ashdod port.
18:16Uh but this time they had a different plan. They just wanted to kidnap the people. They actually destroyed the boat and abandoned the boat there. Some boats they they pierce the hole, destroy the engine for the boat to sink.
18:28And then just took the people, put on another on their ribs and took to a military boat, like a very big military vessel adapted to be a military prison at sea.
18:40And so, that's what they did this time.
18:42So, an interception is this, when they kidnap the people, the boat, the humanitarian aid. Uh but this time they were not even interested in that of stealing the boat and the aid like they do other times. They wanted to sink the boat and abandon them there.
18:55They just wanted to kidnap the people.
18:57And so, that's what they did with 22 of these boats and 30 escaped and would So, we were 22 boats, 181 people in a military prison in the Mediterranean with nobody having a single contact with the outside world, nobody knowing how was our state, our health, if anybody was injured, if anybody would got hurt in any way. And we were in their custody, and in their custody they did very, very violent treatment with us.
19:27So, they when they when we got to this military prison, they first of all put us in stress positions like kneel to the ground.
19:36>> Were you Were you Were you Were just uh Thiago, were you handcuffed? You were handcuffed behind your back?
19:42>> Yes, yes. They They They would handcuff most of the people uh with zip ties.
19:47Sometimes when we got to the prison system in occupied Palestine in Israel, they would put the the metal handcuffs as well. But, sometimes during some procedures from transferring from one boat to the other, they would cut the zip ties and then people would go and they would put them again. And sometimes they would blindfold the people or would not blindfold the people. Uh to me it was a bit different this time because they they recognized me from the start.
20:12It was actually the third time they were kidnapping me less than a year. So, they they knew me and and they they would treat me as an organizer. So, whenever they wanted to give a message to all of our participants, they would call me into a container full of commandos and then their commander would say, "I want you to tell them to do this and this and this." And I said to them, "I I don't mind telling our participants anything that is for their welfare. For if something for their welfare, I'll gladly do. But, if something to make them harm, I refuse to do it." And then they they would say, "No, we just need to count
20:48them this and this and this." But, then sometimes they would ask me to to do things that would do harm to our participants. For example, they were angry because when they put us in this military prison at sea, it was a four containers and a square in the middle of these four containers.
21:05And in these four containers, three of them were for the people to stay to sleep. Extremely hot during the day, extremely cold during the night.
21:14And in the square, there was no coverage at all for the heat and for for the moist of the ocean and for the cold. So, it was very hard conditions. They They would People would lack water, but there was some water, but not enough for everybody. And people lack food. There was some old old bread, but some people as well went into a hunger strike, uh myself included, Chris. So, what happened is that they put us in this military prison. They would put at the at the barrel of a gun to put people in line to count them. They would throw uh stun grenades. They would throw flash bangs to scare people off. And and
21:51people would get very cold at night. So, people would ask for jackets for would ask for for blankets. And what they would do, they they gave like 50 jackets, but we were 181.
22:02And so, some people got jackets, but most of the people didn't. So, they would go inside the container, they would pack themselves and and and cram themselves in a way that would make it hotter, but still would not fit everybody. And so, people would stay outside walking all night to accelerate the metabolism and to stay a bit warmer.
22:21Uh and when somebody asked for blankets or for jackets, they would laugh. They would make fun. They would point the the lasers with the the the crosshairs of the the rifles. And then eventually, when there was many people complaining, what they did was that they flooded the deck. They put a pipe that pumps to to flood the deck and people would get even more wet and more cold. So cruel that they are. And so, at that moment, we decided that was at the end of the second day in this military prison with no communication to the outside world, with without knowing how were our other boats, because we
22:55didn't know that the sturdy boats escaped. They could have been shot. They could have been bombed. They could have been killed.
23:00Uh we really didn't know. So, we were saying, "How is the situation of the other boats and how is everybody here?"
23:07Because they separated six people on our prison boat on the first day. And so, we said, we we made an assembly and at the assembly we made a collective decision that we would stop cooperating with them and would start this hunger strike process until they bring back our six friends that they separated from us, until they brought people their medicine, specially the people with cardiac diseases, specially the diabetic patients.
23:33Uh we people who needed blankets and jackets and people needed sanitary pads for women and people needed more water.
23:40So, those were our demands and we told them that we would stop cooperating, we were on a strike, a hunger strike, but also a non-cooperation strike. And so, uh they they said that we needed to shut up, we could not shout or chant.
23:56And we decided that we would not obey them until they gave us our demands. Uh bring the six people and all these other demands. And then we started chanting all night and they would point the the rifle at us, they would threaten us and we would keep on chanting anyway.
24:10Non-violent type of resistance. And then in the next morning, they were extremely violent. So, they threw a lot of bombs, a lot of flash bangs and stuff and and uh board entered the the inside area of the prison because they would stay above in platforms on the on that boat. They would not enter just when they wanted to promote violence and to do some acts of violence. So, this day they got in with a lot of soldiers, put everybody on their knees with their heads for many many for a long long time. And then they they said that people were being transferred by from boats. And then we said, "We only allow accept to get
24:46transferred once we see our six friends.
24:48We don't want to leave them behind."
24:51Uh and then uh they said, "No, you're not going to have this option." And they just started trying to drag people. And so, we on our knees with our hands up, and they started dragging people. And I was in front because I was negotiating with them, and they would not come for me.
25:05They would come for the people beside beside me and would take them and drag them very violently, and then would take more, two more, and then two more, and eventually they came for me. And when they came for me, they came extremely violent. They just grabbing me by my my by my neck and dragging me. And when they brought me halfway through the door of the entrance of this this prison of this square, they there were already five to six soldiers inside the the other part of the door, and they started kicking my head and kicking my body and so my my leg was outside. People could see my leg like shaking and I'm being kicked by
25:42them. I would hear them throwing me by the metal doors of the of the wall, and that's when I passed out the first time. I I I literally everything went black.
25:52And then they eventually they they dragged me up, and when they dragged me up, they were they were trying to take me outside to another part. And that's when I woke up.
26:04I I regained consciousness. I was being dragged by them. And then I when I regained consciousness, they took me to a processing table, and I was already handcuffed into to the back. They were pulling my my arm very high on my back. It was hurting a lot my shoulder. I thought it it was broken.
26:21And then I I could barely see from my right eye. It was already so so I don't know how to say how so swelling that I could barely see. And then they took me to this processing table, and then the woman asked, "You're Thiago, right?" And I said, "Yes." And then she started making fun of my face. Said that I didn't look like Thiago. And I said, "Yes, you've been hitting me very hard."
26:43And then she she said something in Hebrew which I not cannot understand, and then they started taking me to another corridor. And when they were taking me to this corridor, eventually uh they they actually blindfolded me at that time. I could only see a little bit from below the blindfold. It was not very well tied. So, I could see that I they were dragging me, and then they eventually I would see some boots of the soldier coming, and then when they come, they would punch me. And then, uh eventually they would continue taking me, and then another soldier would come that crosses us in this hallway, and
27:13then this soldier would punch me as well and say something, try to make a joke or something. And then, it was very hard.
27:20>> Where they Where Where were they punching Where Thiago Thiago Where >> me most most in my face, but also in my chest, on my on my stomach as well.
27:28>> Oh.
27:28>> And then they the other ones would continue dragging me.
27:31And then eventually they they got close to the hatch, close to the exit to the place where we entered this this military prison boat.
27:38And then they would put me on my knees and with my head on on my knees on the ground and with my head on the ground as well, the very compact turtle stress position.
27:49And then, uh I would only hear that they were dragging people from behind me. They were dragging the other participants.
27:54So, I was what I was in that the transfer lane that's hearing them being dragged to another out of outside of the prison boat, where they had to climb a ladder, go to a rib, and then from that rib they would go to the other boat that I didn't know what it was or what it was.
28:10And then, I was staying behind. I was just hearing them, and eventually the soldiers that would come and bring these people behind me that when they were leaving them at the at the the hatch to the other boat, when they were going back to get more more more prisoners, they would come and kick me. They would come and spit on me and say bad things.
28:29So, it was a very bad moment where I stayed for a long time there seeing people being transferred, being attacked by these soldiers.
28:37And then eventually they would they were dragging most of the people. All of a sudden I hear someone that looked like a commander that sounded like a commander saying, giving some orders very loud, and he mentioned my name. I could not understand the the rest of the sentence in Hebrew, but I could only understand Tiago.
28:54And when he did that, like four or five soldiers came close to me and started kicking me very hard and then dragging me. I understand he gave a command regarding my situation.
29:04And then they were dragging me inside. And then when the when they were dragging me inside, uh they they I I could see that there were I was being taken to like a a dormitory.
29:17But there was a stair to this dormitory.
29:20And when I got to the stair, they would started beating me so hard, so hard, so hard that I passed out again.
29:25And when I uh actually before I passed out, they actually got a shoelace because one one woman found a shoelace in these days in the prison and she gave it to me. I put on my on my pocket. And when he found the shoelace, he put the shoelace on my neck and he said, "Now we can hang you.
29:40It's the new law. You know that we can hang you." And they were all the time threatening to kill me, all the time saying, "Welcome to Israel." and all these things. Uh but then again eventually they beaten me so hard that that I passed out. And when I woke up, I was being dragged with my head on the ground and my head was hurting because was was scratching on the ground.
30:00And he was dragging me by the foot and with my head on the ground. And then I didn't know where he was taking me.
30:06Eventually he threw me on a room in this dormitory.
30:09And that that they they left me and they closed the door. And when they they locked the door, I could see a little bit from here, but also the ziplock was not very well very tight. So I managed to to get rid of one of my hands.
30:24And then I managed to raise the the the blindfold and to see the situation. Then I was in a room where there was six bunk beds for militaries. There was even a military vest nearby. Uh there was 10 bottles of water, 10 to 12 bottles of water and there was a toilet.
30:41And that's when I managed to get to the toilet and that's when I I understood the situation that I was. I could only feel, there was no mirror there, but I could only feel that my head was very swelled.
30:53So, I I saw some blood, but not not that much.
30:57Uh so, I I knew I was okay, but I could not see from my right eye because it was already closed off the swelling.
31:03I could barely hear from my right ear as well.
31:07And that's was pretty much the situation. And then uh they they covered the the the window of this this this dormitory that I was with uh with trash bag, like a black black bag. So, they they taped it, but the the corner was not very well taped. So, when I stood up I I had my blindfold up I could see a little bit that they were still dragging people and taking people outside of the vessel.
31:35And I heard that for like more than 1 hour, Chris.
31:38And then I could hear that the soldiers would come in the hallway of this dormitory, would go to another room, and then someone would start screaming very loud. So, I understood that they were hitting the people in their nearby by dorms. And I could understand could I was actually hoping that at least it was the six people that were missing, that they that they were alive and that least they were there. And I could hear them transferring some of them. So, I understood that they were taking people out and they were leaving me behind. I did I didn't know if anybody else would be left behind.
32:10And then I whenever I heard that soldiers coming, I had to go back to my position, I had to pretend that I had the blindfold down all the time. I had to pretend I had my head tied on the zip lock. So, I would go and get back into positions because I I didn't want to get more more attacked than I was.
32:26And and so, I also put the blindfold back back up, but uh back down, but I would not put perfectly, so I could still see something below. So, I have this tactical advantage.
32:37And that's what I did for a few hours. I cannot say exactly how many. And then they came again. And when they came again for my room, they did the same thing again with the rope. They said, "You know that now we have a new law that we can hang you and we can hang any Palestinian." And I would not engage on that. And they would they they stood me up. And they did were taking me taking me that time not that violent as before.
33:01And then they took me to a place on this this boat that I never seen before. It was When they took me to this place, I could see a little bit from below. So, I could see that I was close to the to the side on port side of the boat. And they opened the hatch. When they opened the hatch, there was just the ocean. No boat, no rib below. So, I understood that they were either throw me or they would threaten to throw me. And that's what they did. And so, they started saying, "Do you like to swim? Do you know how how long can you survive in this cold water?" And I would not never respond to any of this cuz they were
33:32just provoking. I would I would not engage to to to encourage them on anything like this. So, I would just stay quiet. And then they come with a a taser gun and to use the taser on on my right leg. And I I didn't do anything. I All the time I stayed with my I had my hands tied to my back on the zip lock. So, I never have any reaction. I would not talk to them when they were doing these things.
33:56And so, they kept me there a little bit threatening to throw me to the sea, throw me to the sea. Eventually, they closed the hatch. And then they took me to the other side of the boat. And there was a hatch. They opened the hatch again. And the but there was a rib. And they put the the rope stairs.
34:12And then they they lift my my blindfold. They cut my zip lock. And they asked me to climb down.
34:21And when I was climbing down at the last five steps, the soldier below, they just grabbed me and the boom throw me in the rib. And asked me to be on my knees on the ground and my head on the ground on the rib.
34:35And then they they they zip zip lock me again.
34:40And then they started going with the rib to another boat.
34:45Uh and then they put my blindfold again.
34:48And uh the they they put me very on the very front of the rib. So, there a lot of water will come and I was soaking wet. It was actually very cold and I was so hurt, so bruised. All my body was bruised.
35:01And then uh they I could hear the engine of another boat after we left this boat. So, I understood that they were taking me to a different boat, but I could not see this time. When they put my blindfold again, they put very good, very firmly with a second one.
35:16The first one was covering it all, the second one was putting a lot of pressure here. So, they put very tight, so I really could not see anything. So, I don't know which boat we boarded.
35:25Uh they actually made me climb with my with my eyes blindfolded. And then it from this boat, they they took me to the shower, uh to the to the toilet. And when they took me to the toilet, they asked, "Are you cold?" I said, "Yes."
35:38And then they threw me more water.
35:40And then they take continue taking me into many many walls and and stairs and doors until eventually they put me on a small very small mattress close to to a a wall on the on the boat.
35:58And they ordered me to lie down there and not to move. And then I stood there for the night, for the rest for the morning, for a long time. And I could hear only one person beside me, which was Saif. So, I understood that at least me and Saif we were on this boat.
36:14And then eventually the the next day, a very extremely cold night, uh uh with all my body bruised, very very hurt, they threatening to kill us all the time.
36:26And then they took us to a outside of this boat to a prison car. From this prison car, still blindfolded, they took us into a military facility. In this military facility, with the military checkpoints, I could understand that they brought us to a prison. When we got to this prison, they took the blindfold.
36:46I could see that I was with Saif there.
36:48Just me and him.
36:50And then, a police officer came and said, "Welcome to the Shabak interrogation facility."
36:55Shabak was the internal intelligence of Israel.
36:59And then, they they they asked us to sign documents, and they took all of our stuff. They took all of our clothes, put us in prison clothes.
37:07And then, they separated us, and I didn't see Saif again for around eight year eight days.
37:14And then, we were put in interrogation from the Shabak, from the Mossad, from the police, and other intelligence that didn't identify themselves for all these days, for around 10 days.
37:2818-hour interrogation.
37:30>> And and what in the interrogation, Thiago Thiago, in the interrogation >> First of all, police, they were very very angry about the mission. And they said that this was a terrorist mission, and that we were the leaders, and that's why we had to be punished, that we would get killed. If we didn't get killed, we would spend our life in prison. And that since they were not the Israeli prison system, they were a Shabak interrogation facility, they could torture people. We could actually hear people being tortured all around us. And they had no restrictions of hours that they could interrogate us. They said that the
38:06lawyers would never see the reports, only the judge. If they would show the judge the reports, that basically there were no rules for what they could do there.
38:16And they would would ask about the flotilla. Why did we insisted on going the flotilla, etc. I said other things because it's very obvious, it's very public what we do.
38:26They asked where the funding came from and we said, "Look, there's an online uh fundraising. You can check the website."
38:32Uh which countries we were organized and I said, "Look, we put all the all these things public on our website. We're not afraid of doing our organized because we're doing for the right reasons." And then they would say that we would spend our all of our lives there if we were not killed. And then eventually they they would uh keep on insisting on all the other missions. So, they asked me to narrate all the other missions. It was actually the ninth mission I was organizing of the flotilla. So, they wanted in details what did we do? How did we do? And all these things were public. We would do public because we
39:06have nothing to hide. We We should not fear them. Uh and and they was insisting on, "Why do you do this? Because there's no starvation in Gaza. You know that this is not true." And we said, "Actually, we know that it is true." And they said, "No, you're accessing wrong information. Every day I see here on my WhatsApp hundreds of trucks getting to Gaza." I said, "I'm sorry, but this is fake because the United Nations proved that there's no aid coming in. The doctors in Gaza, they proved there's no aid coming in. That the journalists that you didn't kill, they proved that there's not enough aid coming in." And
39:38they said, "No, this is not true. This is just to attack Israel." So, they they get a fabricated version that they actually believe that version or they say they believe and they stick to that.
39:48And uh so, they kept us there for all these days asking pretty much the same things. So, they would actually access my social media and say, "For 21 years of uh solidarity work for Palestine."
39:59And they would ask about every single thing, all the times that I've been and when I went to the West Bank and what did I do there, every city that I went.
40:06And I was actually using this as an opportunity to tell them the story that they don't hear in their country about what they are doing, the colonization, the apartheid, and the genocide. And they hated it so much, Chris. They hated to hear these things, but I thought it was important for them to hear. And eventually, they came a few days later asking for a renewal of our of our our remain there. So, they would take us to court hearings, and they would ask the judge to keep us there for longer, and the judge would grant them that. And when they they actually were were deciding to press charges, which charges they would press, they
40:41decided they came and said, "You're going to stay here for your whole life because we are charging you of five terror terror crimes, each of them for 20 years sentence. So, totally is 100 years. You're being charged of being a terrorist, you're being a leader of a terrorist organization, a member of a terrorist organization, in contact with the transporting terror terrorist property because these boats are terrorist boats, and you're aiding the enemy in times of war because the propaganda you do is against Israel.
41:17It's actually assisting our enemies."
41:20And that's the the sum of the accusations that they tried to pull on us for 100 years. And I said, "Look, I don't fear getting in prison. You have almost 10,000 Palestinian people in your dungeons being treated much worse than I am, being tortured much much worse.
41:37Almost 400 of these people are children that you've been keeping here in administrative detention with no right of even proper defense. Some of them are not even properly charged of anything.
41:50You killed so many Palestinians. You've been killing for eight decades.
41:55So, we should not be afraid of getting killed, of spending our life in prison.
42:00That's the reality of anti-colonial struggle.
42:03We are actually on a hunger strike. So, you you say you have 100 years to keep us here, but you actually have a bit more than a month.
42:11So, I'm sure that the whole world is mobilizing against this other violation of humanitarian law. And yeah, we we are here with all the dignity that we have.
42:22Well, we do not fear you and we continue going.
42:25So, when they took us to the court hearing, I did this victory sign that that Nicolas Maduro did in prison as well. And so, that that's the moment where they got very violent and very angry at me as well. And they said that they would break every single bone in my hands and in my arm if I did any move on the next time because whenever they brought us to a court hearing, first of all, we were blindfolded and with two handcuffs on each wrist and in each ankle. And then they would take off, but we would still have to walk with our hands on our back. And they would take it off just for us to go inside the room
43:00first to the press for them to make videos and then they would take away all the press and then we would go back again and would sit down there.
43:06And that's what what we did. And when I did this sign on the first hearing, they all the other hearings before was like 10 minutes of them pushing me to the to the wall and pressuring me and say, "We are going to break every bone on your hand if you do that sign again." So, you and then they would say, "Because we are a fair and and just just state. So, but we don't want to do that to you."
43:32So, that that's amazing how they they flipped from very violent, genocidal, and horrific people to people that say that they have a rule of law in their country. And then in the end, we stayed there for 10 days. So, around 2 days in the prison boat, around 10 days on the on the torture interrogation facility of the Shabak.
43:52And they decided to to let us go. The the pressure the political pressure that was made by the campaign to release us put them in a situation that they could not kill us. They could not imprison us for 100 years. They It was better for them to let us go.
44:08So, they let us go in a way that Sa'if was allowed to take a flight to Spain, but there is were no direct flights to Brazil. So, so they would not allow that. So, they would just drop me in Egypt. And in Egypt, I was taken to the Sinai Desert in the border of Taba, and from there I I found my way. And when I was finding my way in the Sinai Desert to go to Cairo to take the the flight to Brazil, I had no communication with the outside world. So, I was left there with nothing. So, so the guy who was taking me, Muhammad, he was taking me to the Brazilian Embassy. So, that from the Brazilian Embassy, I would go to the
44:44airport.
44:45And then I asked to use his phone to send a message to my wife and my baby that because that I'm sure they would be very concerned about me.
44:54And then when I sent her a message, I her her Instagram is actually blocked to for people who are not her friends, you see. So, I just sent her message and I went to my Instagram to say, "Let me see on my page if they know that I'm being released they would have published on my page."
45:09And when I went there to access cuz I I saw the the videos of the funeral of my mother that she had died 5 days before and I I was not there.
45:19So, it actually was it broke me to see.
45:21It was so sad, so sad. They can actually inflict on us a huge amount of pain. Uh they've been doing this to Palestinian much worse pains for such a long time, but but that's the thing. Whatever they do to us is still as more fresh than what they do to Palestinians. So, Hussam Abu Safiya, the the doctor of Kamal Adwan Hospital, has been tortured for 500 days now, more than 500 days. He's in solitary confinement right now. He also lost his mother and could not see and pay respects for his mother. Uh Marwan Barghouti, in prison for decades as well. He also lost many, many family members and could not see. They actually
45:58design erased entire families from the registry in Gaza. And so, there was not even anyone to grieve them because they erased completely entire lineage, entire family. Thousands of years of lineage there erased on a genocide.
46:15So, the the tortures that we suffered, the violence that we suffered, they were very very hard, but nothing compares to what they do to Palestinians. That's the problem of this when I got back to Brazil, I I never speak about their violence as as soon as I get back because I always want to speak about what's happening to Gaza and to the Palestinians. Otherwise, people put the us on the subject and so I wait a few days. I only speak about the situation that motivated the mission and then after a few days I start talking. And then the other boats that escaped, the 13 boats, they actually joined 20
46:46more boats and they actually went again.
46:48So, 2 weeks later they were there going again and so I went to Turkey at Istanbul to help to to pressure if they got intercepted to support.
46:57And then when they came back from detention, after 3 days detention, they were broken, please. They were People got People got so many broken bones, so many violations in the second interception. So, it was very very hard to see and so in a way that usually we don't speak immediately about the violations that the participants suffered. We only speak about Gaza. But this time we had to speak. People who had so many ribs broken, clavicle broken, cervical broken, punctured lungs, uh the rapes case. So, uh it was such an absurd that uh in in Itamar Ben-Gvir bragging about that, but he didn't calculate it very well because he posted
47:38a video and then there was a huge diplomatic and political backlash.
47:42So, that's actually what changed because uh the world got shocked on how how they brag about doing these horrific violations. So, that's the outcome that we had. It was a mission like like the other missions of non-violence, civil disobedience, direct action, solidarity mission, humanitarian mission.
48:01Uh with the idea of breaking the siege, creating a humanitarian corridor, supporting the Palestinian in the right for self-determination, liberation.
48:09But it was the biggest mission ever attempted. And the the effect was that it created more than 20 countries condemning Israel, some applying sanctions. From October to now, many countries recognized the Palestinian state. And first of all, and most important of all of these, after 7 months, now 8 months of the so-called ceasefire in Gaza, people are finally talking again about Gaza. So it was very hard for all of us, very, very tough.
48:38They can inflict on us a lot of pain.
48:40But it was worth it because people are not silent about the genocide anymore.
48:44So we we understood that we fulfilled our role in solidarity with this mission.
48:51>> I mean, clearly the violence it wasn't I know from speaking with you from previous detentions they were violent, but they it appears they've just ratcheted up to uh a level not seen before probably to prevent people from carrying out further flotillas. Would that be correct?
49:16>> Yes, uh they they they had these two things going on, these two phenomena.
49:20First, they were understanding that the flotillas were escalating every time with more and more of boats, growing every time they attack us. So they wanted to send us a message not to do.
49:29And another thing is there there is this internal political struggle in the Zionist regime, which is carried by the far right, represented by Netanyahu, by Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich. And uh the the so-called representatives of the state of Israel, not the far right, which uh they're also Zionists, they also promote genocide and ethnic cleansing, but in a different way, more strategic, more concealed way. And so they were struggling about how to what to do because whenever we get arrested in a flotilla, they had the struggle going on that BB wants to punish us as public as they can and as hard as he can
50:07to show that he's a strong man. He's going for elections, so he wants to get votes. As incredible as it may seem, the violence that he promotes gives him more votes. And Netanyahu, the attacks that he doesn't foreign and the neighboring countries also actually give him more votes as well.
50:23So, they wanted the votes, they wanted to punish and violate people to show strength.
50:28On the other side, the the other sectors, not the very, very far right, they wanted to show a good image of Israel. So, they wanted to get rid of us of this PR crisis as soon as they could.
50:40There's always this tug of war of some wanting to get rid of us, some wanting to punish us. Uh most of the other missions, the ones to wanted to get rid of us, they got the best. And the we we got released and deported very soon.
50:54But from the previous missions with BB, BB was already having his way in in some parts of the the detention process. This time, he was in full control for the first days and for the the first moments of interception. And when he made this video that he actually did for to promote himself, uh the out public outrage and global global uh condemnation created a way that this this this Israeli state, once again the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Yossi Del Sar, for example, he said this is not acceptable, he's not abiding by the Israeli values and all this stuff. So, I'm ordering the release of all prisoners immediately.
51:35>> [music] >> And bow I know what the Russian attorney now.
51:53Tell them what happened.
51:56>> Free free Palestine.
51:59>> Second.
52:00Second.
52:13>> [music] >> Don't let it get me out of the way.
52:34>> So after the video after the attacks of the violations, this side of the politics in Israel, they got the best as well. And got rid of us. But still, they they are more patient. Zionist. It's not that they are respect respect international laws. Actually, Itamar Ben-Gvir controls the the police. The entire police because he's the Ministry of Interior. But the Israeli Navy is controlled by Netanyahu himself. And the Ministry of Defense, Israel Israel Katz.
53:01Uh the the so many of the Israeli state that happens over there is not under Ben-Gvir's command. And the genocide against the Palestinian people in Gaza, the apartheid state, is under every aspect of the Israeli state. So it's not Itamar Ben-Gvir is an heir in the system. He's just a symptom of this this sick society, genocidal society.
53:23>> And what's next?
53:26For you and for the world.
53:30>> Yeah, Chris, whenever people have ask us, "Should we continue?" I always ask them uh are we are we have we solved the root causes that created a flotilla to happen.
53:44Is the Palestinian people free? Do they live with equality regardless of their race, their gender, their ethnicity, their religion in their land that they are indigenous from?
53:54Or have they stopped calling for solidarity?
53:57No. None of these things are solved.
53:59Actually, the situation in Gaza is getting worse and worse. Now, Netanyahu is bragging about controlling 70% of Gaza in the so-called beyond the line in 8 months of the so-called genocide. So, they want to take They want to escalate the world to total destruction, and we need to stop these people. Uh not not we individually, but the global uprising of people, the free people of the world, we need to stop them. Otherwise, we'll be on on on our homes. We'll be We'll be on on everyone's people that think they're so far away from all of these. They think it's just a matter of conscience, but it's not. Eventually, it will be
54:34you. Every single person that had breakfast, that had lunch today paid more for their food because of the wars of Netanyahu and Donald Trump. Every person that used gas, that took transportation, they paid more for this because of their wars. And it's not only the the crisis of cost of living, but the the risk that these bombs eventually will fall on us, that these exception states, this this this terror states, these repressive states, they will come into your country as well, into your society as well.
55:07So, we need to stop that. Every Every generation, they have a mission like like Hussein that was Franz Fanon that every generation has a historical calling that you have to fulfill it or betray it. And we understand this very well. The The Palestinian people showed the world that that the evil of this generation is called Zionism and United States imperialism. And we need to stop this for all the people to be able to live it free, to live with dignity, to have the right to live in peace with justice. So, we need to do all the efforts. Flotilla is just a tool, a tactic, but we need to dedicate our lives to do that. We need
55:42to do like like you do to bring free information to to open people's minds to what's actually going on. We need to organize people in the territories to create social strength, answering the problems to the problem that people are suffering every day that sometimes prevent them from engaging in solidarity and mobilizing in solidarity in as many actions as we can by sea, by land, by every means necessary. It's our task. I I'm I'm I'm a father of a 2-year-old baby daughter that of course she misses me and it's very dangerous to do what we do. I was threatened so many times. She was threatened so many times when I was
56:16in prison by them. Uh but there's nothing more dangerous for my daughter than to live in a world that normalized genocide cuz eventually these bombs could be on our homes, could be in our countries. So, we need to mobilize right now. That's why when people say what's next is to do everything that we are still doing, but stronger, with more people, more organized, uh more dedicated, even more than what we already are. We need to be better for this great battle of our generation.
56:45>> Great, Tiago.
56:48Uh and thanks for the interview and all you do. I have tremendous respect for you and all of the activists who are fighting against the genocide.
56:58Uh I want to thank Max and uh Noal and Thomas who produced the show.
57:05You can find me at chrishedges.substack.com.
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