0:01Right now, the thing I'm curious about the most is I would love to do a comedy special about the Abrahamic faiths.
0:06A Now that's risky. I mean, you I will say like I would love your even your clips cuz obviously you're not putting your whole sets on Instagram, but even your clips like you take some risks and it works every time cuz you you like own it.
0:21>> I appreciate it.
0:21>> And you're like, "Listen, just nerdy white guy here. Don't mind me. Anyway, [laughter] Nigerian names."
0:25>> Exactly.
0:26Well, dude, I like maybe I've shared this before on here. I thought of >> It's not like that's going to buy it.
0:31I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I ruined it. No, what did you You have no idea. Yeah, what the [ __ ] >> Yeah, we're going to put Chris to work.
0:36>> Just like Ben it.
0:37>> I'm sorry, Deef. I ruined your mic.
0:39>> It's all right. I'll fix it.
0:40>> I [ __ ] it all up.
0:41>> All right. [laughter] It was That's better. There we go.
0:44Um >> [laughter] >> Give it some Viagra.
0:47>> Yeah, exactly. Um I love cultures and I love people.
0:52>> Yes.
0:52>> I think above anything else like I I genuinely love people. Like I'm so fascinated and I I don't judge. I'm like I'll find it funny. I think there's certain things that I think are hilarious, but like I love people and I think the maybe not the best way, but an essential way to understand a culture is to understand their religion. Like I I always say this on religion cam. I'm like I don't think you can understand a people without knowing the god they worship. So for me it's like I want to [snorts] understand the faith cuz most of these cultures don't exist ontologically outside of their faith,
1:19right? Like in order to understand the Middle East you have to understand Islam. To understand America you have to understand puritanical evangelical Christianity. To understand like Western Europe you got to understand Catholicism. Like it's intrinsic to understanding the people is how they orient their lives and for most of them it's the most single important thing in their life. So it's like at the very least as a respectful human being on this planet I should know the bare minimum, right? I should understand what the Quran is about. I should read some of the Hadiths. I should get that. Like
1:42I should read the Talmud. I should understand the Torah, the Tanakh. Like to me it's like kind of just like being a respectful human being is to like know more or less what it's about. You don't got to read everything, of course, but so [snorts] for me I'm like I love culture. I love people and I want to understand how they're connected. And religion and culture and how they're connected. And so, doing all these different channels is a way to kind of like understand better and be less ignorant about all these people I share the planet with.
2:07>> Yeah, I like that you're doing the different topics like that, too, where you have like religion camp as one going through the history and everything.
2:12>> And then, for me, comedy is just like, okay, let's take all this data and then make it funny.
2:17>> Yeah, now, how do you Obviously, you're going to take risks doing that.
2:20Obviously, as a comedian, you can't worry about like, on a certain level, offending someone who wants to be offended and stuff like that. But how do you do that in a way where you're like, all right, I'm going to not piss off the majority of people.
2:36There'll always be a subset, but like, >> But the way you do that is you know more.
2:40By knowing like about the culture and actually like immersing yourself, like calling up your buddy from high school that is Nigerian, and you're like, oh dude, I didn't like I never even connected like your culture and like the fact that your parents are like from, you know, Lagos or whatever. Like, I didn't know I didn't ever connect that with who you are as a person. So, like, tell me about your culture and [ __ ] You understand where the lines are. So, like, I would feel comfortable doing a show and having a Like, I've done shows where it's like a bunch of Muslims in the front, and I'm like, oh, I know what's funny about
3:07Islam without offending you guys. And I know where the lines are, and I know how to do that with Christians and with Jews. And by knowing more and having and just being more versed on like people, then you know what's going to offend them, and you know more or less what they're going to find funny.
3:22>> It's interesting cuz it feels like the lines are getting drawn more than ever between like cultures and people. Like, sometimes it feels like the internet itself is like we're all sci-opping ourselves and separating groups more than ever when the [ __ ] internet is the tool that brings people together from around the world on like ever before. Like, the the paradox there is insane.
3:46>> Yeah, so you go on Twitter, and it's like, oh, everything's the Jews' fault.
3:49And you're like, and And it's like now anytime any type of like moral philosophy is just like this ethnic group is the problem.
3:55>> Yep.
3:56>> You've completely missed the point. Like you're you're completely like jumped it.
4:00Like what are you doing? Like everyone's like talking about all these problems like, "Oh dude, wealth inequality and you know, cost of living and government and that that." I'm like, "These are all legitimate concerns." And then instead of like unifying as a force and being like, "Okay, let's try to get good politicians and like let's try to like actually have some agenda proposals that'll do good. You have dumb idiots on the internet being like, "Oh, it's this people."
4:20>> Right.
4:20>> They're the reason. I'm like, "Did you learn nothing?"
4:22>> Right.
4:23>> And it's like uh to I think a great example is Uganda, Idi Amin.
4:28Idi Amin >> Yeah, tell people who who didn't see Last King of Scotland.
4:31>> [laughter] >> Exactly. Becomes the dictator of Uganda and pretty summarily and very quickly just like kicks out all these South Asians. They call them South Asians, we call them Indians. But they're all basically like Daisy like diaspora.
4:45Okay, so it's like Pakistanis and Indians that have moved to Uganda and many of them were moving there as like indentured servants under the British and then built lives there and then started their own companies and businesses. And then Idi Amin comes in and says, "We need to be Uganda first.
4:58We need to kick out all of the foreigners. If you're not Ugandan, if you don't have dark skin, if you're not of us, you're out." [clears throat] And so within 24 hours he gave all these people an ultimatum and said, "Leave or be imprisoned." And so as a result you have this giant like brain drain of all these people that have built their entire lives. They are Ugandan, they've lived in this country their whole lives, their parents are Ugandan. They just happen to look, you know, Indian. And so as a result the country kind of collapses because all of these economic drivers for the country are now leaving. And so as overnight
5:28it's like your laundromat is closed and your mechanic is not there anymore. And so all of a sudden the country starts implode on itself. And it's like, "Yeah, dude, you just kicked out all of the people that are like supporting your economy." Not all of them, but many of these people that are contributing to the economy that are good members of their society, you kick them out. So anytime people are like, "Dude, it's this group's the problem." I'm like, and I know people on the internet are going to be like, oh dude, you're you're doing Israeli propaganda or good [ __ ] or whatever.
5:53I'm like, dude, I just anytime you're pointing at a group and being like they're the reason for all the problems in the world you're you missed it.
5:59>> First of all, you also have got and I don't care where you're talking about here. It could be China, it could be Russia, it could be Israel, it could be [ __ ] wherever. You have to be able to separate people from their government, too.
6:12>> Yeah.
6:13>> You know what I mean? Like people and I I've always say this line.
6:16My friend Eric Soler who's someone you should definitely have on when he's in town. He's so [ __ ] funny.
6:20Unintentionally, too. But like, you know, he's traveled the world in all these random places, particularly places that aren't recognized as countries and he's like, people are not their governments, bro.
6:30>> Yeah.
6:31>> You know? And when you start to define them that way by the decisions made, especially when a government's bad, which, you know, news flash, that happens a lot.
6:38>> Yeah, empires are kind of evil.
6:40>> Yeah. It's like, you know, you it everyone just needs a boogeyman on on things and I guess when I was younger, when I was a teenager, I was just I mean, news flash, I was very naive.
6:54>> Yeah, same.
6:55>> There was a thought with like the internet had had come in now and I'm like, oh wow, so no one will ever be able to separate themselves as a people like ethnically anymore. Like they'll do it in small ways, but never like, oh, look at them or oh, look at them cuz we can all just talk to each other now. Nope.
7:13>> It has had the opposite effect >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:15>> in the modern era and I feel like, I'd love your thoughts on this. I feel like the real breaking point, I mean, people talk about like the political unrest after the global financial crisis in the US, certainly have a great argument there, but like the real breaking point was COVID because you had something happen where particularly elites in power lied.
7:36>> Mhm.
7:37>> Much of what was put out there was propaganda >> Mhm.
7:40>> and wrong.
7:41And so it people and I get it where they're like therefore anything that we have ever heard now or before is now wrong.
7:50We're just it's going to be it's like SpongeBob. We're going to be opposite day every day.
7:54>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think just like contrarian thinking is maybe like a healthy exercise. Like always like hear something and evaluate it, be skeptical, like try to like digest it and think about it, but just by immediately taking the opposite stance of whatever the majority whatever you've been taught your whole life is is going to lead you inevitably into the wrong direction or into multiple different wrong directions. And I think we're seeing that a lot with social media especially. I think things are because there's so much content, the algorithm's answer is to silo things.
8:22And so because there's just so much you can't consume everything, the algorithm's basically okay, let's keep people on these platforms. Let's give them something they love, something they hate, something they love, something they hate. Keep them on this emotional roller coaster. Because like you leave these social apps and you're not feeling better. You know what I mean? Like generally like I turn off my phone I'm not like ah, that was so rewarding. Like I'm so glad I did that. It's like no, this is a slot machine and you win sometimes and you lose sometimes and they're designed in that way to hack
8:48your brain to make you feel kind of like you need another hit.
8:53>> That's right.
8:53>> Not like you need good content or bad content, you just need another hit. So as a result, things are more siloed, things don't spill over, you're kind of stuck in your echo chamber. And the concern is that it radicalizes people in every different direction. Not only like neo-Nazi radicalization, but like you'll have like ultra left-wing like dude now is sick propaganda and you're like hold on, we're getting too separated here.
9:15And so I don't I don't know if you know the YouTuber J Reg.
9:19>> No.
9:20>> You You may have seen him. He's like brilliant. I really like watching his stuff. It's all I think I think it might His name might be Greg, but his handle is J Reg. So I don't actually don't even know how he pronounces it. But he just does like really interesting like funny YouTube content about like the political space.
9:35And he did one This was like four or five years ago, about like the Overton window.
9:39>> Oh, yeah.
9:40>> This dude. I You've probably seen his face, man.
9:42>> not seen this, no.
9:43>> He's great. Um >> Postmodern love songs, I already like him.
9:46>> Yeah, yeah. He's His new thing is like uh he's anti-clanker. So, he's like against like the the AI clanker revolution. So, he's like trying to restore >> a kind of thing?
9:56>> It's a It's a like a funny >> that on YouTube?
9:59>> Not in England, but yes. It's a >> marking this >> [laughter] >> cuz I'm trying to get demonetized.
10:04>> It's like a The clanker thing is like a funny slur for like the robot overlords.
10:08>> Okay.
10:09>> Excuse me.
10:10And uh but he made one of the Overton window that I thought was great.
10:14That >> Explain the Overton window to >> Overton window is basically the window of acceptable discourse within any society.
10:20>> Mhm.
10:21>> So, you know, during McCarthyism, like communism was outside of the Overton window. Like it was people were flirting with it, and people were like, "No, no, no, you have to reel it in. Be more centrist, da da da." And so, that window will shift. And like there's a bunch of different Overton windows that exist in different communities, right? Like there's words that we won't use, and that those exist outside the Overton window. And he basically made this thing like the window historically was like shifting left, shifting right. You would have like during New Deal America, like, yeah, it was a little bit left. And then
10:46like, you know, during Reagan, it was moving right. And like the way people would talk about stuff, this window is just shifting. And he's saying now the window is broken. And that it's shifting in both directions. Where like left left thoughts are good, right thoughts are good, but centrist thoughts are out.
11:01>> He's right.
11:01>> And that by claiming to be a centrist, people on either side will be like, "Oh, you're actually right-wing." Or being a centrist, people are like, "Oh, you're actually left-wing." And so, now you have this bifurcation where the middle is out, and the far ends are also out.
11:14And I was like, "That is a great way to put it. The window is not shifting anymore. It's completely fractured."
11:19>> You got to get that guy in for a podcast.
11:21>> I I I hit him up actually recently. I think he lives in Canada, maybe Toronto.
11:24>> Yeah, if you get him, send him here afterwards. I'd love to talk to him about that. That is I think he's a thousand percent right.
11:30he >> all sorts of interesting things about like horseshoe theory that like, you know, will take you on one side.
11:34>> Well, it's like he has You should just watch the videos, but like basically like in every different political strata, like things are horseshoeing.
11:41And if you're familiar with horseshoe theory, it's like as you go farther right and farther left, it kind of meets in the same thing. And so he's like, you have far right-wing people that are like, "Yeah, dude, we hate Jews. We hate Israel." Da da da. And then you have far left-wing people that are like, "Yeah, we also hate." And like they're like coming together and he shows there's a bunch of different horseshoes.
11:56And I just think he's really clever. But on the Overton window thing, I'm like, I feel like that's what's happening. Is that as things are so siloed, people are kind of just getting whatever feed they want. And by having like a type of like politically neutral stance, where you're sort of like taking some stuff from here, some stuff from here, and like being a normal human being, which I still maintain most people are, the internet and sort of the digital atmosphere that we're in like just separates people into such a crazy way.
12:22I don't even know if anyone believes anything. I hear people on Twitter being like, "Dude, Hitler was cool." And you're like, "Do you even believe this?
12:27Are you just trying to get clicks?"
12:29>> the time. It's not even real.
12:30>> Are you just living in some like developing country trying to make money on outraging people? I'm like, >> Yeah, that's a great point, Mark. I mean, you have to remember, and I'd like to think I'm not an optimist about this. I do I I and you as well, obviously. Like I I do think we're right, but when you go on to Twitter, which is on every continent, basically.
12:53Probably on Antarctica, too. I'm not sure, but you know, you can see a tweet that has 50,000 likes and 3 million views, and you're like, "Oh my god, that's what everyone thinks."
13:03>> Yeah.
13:03>> First of all, 1.7 million of those views are bot accounts and not real, including a 30,000 of those likes. And the 20,000 likes that are there are people who are habitually tied to Twitter all day and liking [ __ ] So, I will give you an example. We were sitting in here recording with the religion business guys, who are also dudes you should definitely have on your show, >> [gasps and sighs] >> on September 10th, when Charlie Kirk was shot.
13:25>> Mhm.
13:25>> And we went to take a quick bathroom break, and during the bathroom break, Dave was like, "Dude, Charlie Kirk just got shot, and it's really bad." And we were like, "Oh, shit." And we got back on air, and we were just all shell-shocked. And then, [clears throat] we finished, they they left, Dave left, and it was like a weird day. It's like, "What the fuck?"
13:43And I remember just seeing Twitter and scrolling it 10-15 minutes and seeing how angry people were. And I and I get that completely, right?
13:53And how politicized some of it immediately got and all that. And then, I put my phone down, I walked to my window out there, and it was around 5:30, maybe. So, it's during peak rush hour of people coming back. And I watched people walking back from the PATH train down my street. And ironically, this was a day where not everyone was glued to their phones, which is very that felt very symbolic to me, because usually, you know, I used to see people [ __ ] texting down the street.
14:16But, I'm watching people walk, and these are people from ages 22 to 60.
14:22All different backgrounds, people who vote left, people who vote right, people who don't vote at all.
14:27And there was no one with like a commotion or like holding their phone out, like, "Oh, see that." People were going about their lives. I'm not saying that [clears throat] means you ignore something like that. That was a seminal event for all the wrong reasons and and stuff. I'm not saying that, but I am saying this anger that you see at everything is not representative of the whole of society unless we try to make it in a way that we try to then dictate that thing to come out into the real world and force people to get involved, and force people to get mad at each other, you >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, even seeing people
15:00mad about like Zoran and Trump like talking. Like people on the left are like, "Why are they Why is he like capitulating to this, you know, fascist?" And people on the right being like, "Why is Trump talking to this communist saying that they agree on stuff? This is crazy." I'm like, "No, no, no. Both these people are elected.
15:14They're in power. I would love to see people cooperating."
15:17>> Yes.
15:17>> Like again, I this is not just be my my Christian bias, but, you know, I think about the book of Matthew from time to time.
15:23Blessed are the peacemakers. And not the peacekeepers necessarily. You don't need to just like allow anything to happen all the time and just >> NATO, bro.
15:30>> Yeah, [laughter] just roll over. But like make peace. And like find people you disagree with and try to find common ground and pull them back to your side and maybe they'll pull you to your side and we can all kind of be in the middle and >> Yeah.
15:41>> lower the temperature. And I hate like the negative rhetoric because it also makes jokes harder in a way. Like >> What do you mean?
15:49>> Like I love comedy above everything else. So like anything that infringes on my ability to do stand-up like is annoying to me. So like I love making cultural jokes and jokes about people's backgrounds and where they're from and like religion and all sorts of stuff. So like when the temperature gets too hot, people immediately get scared.
16:05And so I'll be talking so I'm like, "Oh, you're Mormon." And then people are like, "Oh, dude, he's he's talking about religion."
16:09>> [clears throat] >> And I'm like, "No, no, we're just I'm just like I know where the lines are.
16:12I'm just going to make some funny jokes about the underwear. This is going to be fine." Like I talked to a Muslim dude, a Jewish guy and I I can feel the tension where people are like, "Oh, no." And in certain ways the tension is good because you can release it. But at the same time like I don't want to have to justify myself like, "Hey, I'm operating in good faith. I love people and I love these people specifically at this show right here in front of me. I have nothing but empathy and respect and I just want to like tease and poke fun and make fun of myself and make fun of them. It's not that deep." And I you can just feel the
16:38tension in the room though. It's like, "Oh, he said black. Oh, no, this is going to be bad." And it's like, "Guys, it's okay." Like I like I understand that there's actual bad actors out there that exist to like stir up vitriol and get people to hate each other. That's not me. And I just kind of want the temperature to settle because again, like I don't think racism is funny, but I think racial jokes are very funny.
17:01>> No, seriously though, there there's a huge difference there.
17:04>> Yeah.
17:04>> Like you talk to anyone, any of your guys that you've had on who were like in the military or whatever. I mean, that's like the diversity coalition.
17:11>> the most >> Right, they got every race, creed, and religion in that thing. And the way that that pass they'll tell you the way they pass the time is making funny jokes about each other's cultures.
17:19>> Yeah, it's great.
17:20>> It's like, yeah, it's awesome.
17:20>> I'm I feel like that's just how dudes talk.
17:23>> That's what [laughter] I'm saying. It's like there's somewhere along the way it became, you know, this locker room talk.
17:28You're not allowed to [laughter] do that at all, you know? I'm not saying you got to go all the way with things, but >> full Italian, you know?
17:35>> You [laughter] know, like sometimes I deep hits me like I got to pull it back.
17:39But still, like when we got to a point where people were litigating every word you said, you're like, oh, this slippery slope is way worse than whatever the other side is. Like that's where we're at now where it's getting weird because you made that point that J Reg, that YouTube channel right there, which can we make a note to link that in the description just so people can can check that out. But like he was talking about the Overton window has now removed centrism and it's far one way or the other.
18:06And I don't think there's any better example than like the dichotomy of like, not to single it out, but just look at at at this kind of like symbol right here. The dichotomy between like woke policing of all words and anyone who speaks against us, we're going to throw on some masks and shut down your speech at a [ __ ] college with balaclavas and [ __ ] Versus like Nick Fuentes.
18:30>> Mhm.
18:31>> Like the there is no I I there's nothing but air between those two. You know, I mean heavy air that they can't walk through.
18:38>> [laughter] >> Like whatever, right? Like there is there is significant space between them.
18:43And so people who are just like, Yeah, you know, I don't like that. I don't like that either. They're like, shut the [ __ ] up.
18:48>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:49>> Right now. Like to me I've I've been talking about this recently cuz I hadn't seen Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy in a while, but I rewatched it a couple months ago.
18:59And holy [ __ ] did he cuz he made these movies in '04, '07, and 2011. They came out in '05, '08, and 2012.
19:08Holy [ __ ] did he nail where society was going.
19:11>> Prophetic.
19:11>> Yeah, like and he does with a lot of his movies. He But what he does is before he does a film, he picks a word as his tone. This is what the film is about.
19:20Not necessarily the title of the film, like a word. So, for Dark Knight, it was chaos. I started thinking about that.
19:26I'm like, "Oh my god, okay, Dark Knight, chaos. Who represents that?" Well, obviously the Joker. He's chaos, right?
19:32But who's the symbolic figure, spoiler alert, in the movie who gets flipped by the chaos? Harvey Dent, who becomes Two-Face. He becomes the very thing that he hates.
19:42>> Mhm.
19:43>> And I looked at it and said, "Some of the [ __ ] that's being pushed on the internet right now is the Joker.
19:49>> Mhm.
19:50>> And we all have to decide if we're going to be Harvey Dent. Are we going to become the things that used to be like, "Oh, no, come on, that's me."
19:58Like, "Be Be a nice guy, you know what I mean?" Regardless of what your beliefs are, just [ __ ] stop. Or are we going to be like, "Yeah, [ __ ] this. We're so mad that we're going to become that."
20:06>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:07>> Yeah, cuz now you have people on the right being like, "You can't make jokes about this.
20:10You can't make jokes about whatever terrible thing I don't like." And it's like, "Really?" Like it's just like circling back and it's like, "Let's just everyone take a breath."
20:18>> Yeah.
20:19>> Like and I I understand information is hard and understanding what's going on is difficult. So, like the way I operate is if I don't understand something, pop in a ChatGPT, ask a question, you know, pop in a Grok, ask the same question.
20:33You get two answers, you find kind of like the balance, and then you go ask someone that you think knows. If you have a question about a religion, about a culture, about a people, go ask them.
20:42And then you'll realize like, "Oh, wow, we're actually human beings and we agree on a lot of stuff and we're not actually all that crazy." And if you don't know, then uh just maybe uh maybe listen.
20:52>> Oh, that that would change >> Or shut the [ __ ] up. [laughter] >> Right. Like there's a lot of [ __ ] I don't know and I probably said a lot of stuff on here that I that might not even be completely factual, but I'm operating in good faith and if I got something wrong, that's you know, that's my bad.
21:03And like if I don't know, I'll just be like, "Dude, do, know."
21:05>> Yeah, you're putting out three episodes a week couple of >> [laughter] >> three hours. Like, you know, four.
21:11Christos over there like, >> Yeah.
21:14>> It's like a joker like >> Yeah.
21:17>> But, you know, you >> But, finding people you think are operating good faith I think is essential.
21:21>> Yes, and you're not going to get every line right or you're going to say something and you'll be like, well, that was [ __ ] dumb. And afterwards [laughter] like it's part of being human, but I think there are a lot of people who do that now by a lot of people I mean a handful of people relative to society online who make a living by doing that in 280 characters or less 40 times a day and I think they start to believe it after a while.
21:42>> Oh, yeah, yeah. You heard that term the mask eats the face?
21:45>> Actually, no.
21:46>> It's Is it I I think about a lot cuz it's like I think people specifically online will kind of play characters. Like you'll be on Twitter and you'll be like, okay, I'm doing this like outrage people like to get clicks and da da da. And after enough time this mask ends up becoming you. You know what I mean? Like the mask like literally eats the person that's wearing it and then the character becomes the person.
22:05>> Yeah.
22:05>> You know?
22:05>> Nobody cared who I was >> [laughter] >> until I put on the mask.
22:09>> Exactly, dude. Interstellar.
22:11>> Or whatever.
22:11>> God damn it.
22:12>> [laughter] >> He's on the spaceship? I haven't seen it. I'm just assuming. I'm not familiar exactly with all the movies. I'm sorry, okay? I read books.
22:20>> Sometimes.
22:21>> Oh my god.
22:23>> Yeah, who does all the research?
22:24Christos?
22:25>> No, we actually >> Christos is over here like, I'm I'm the brains.
22:28>> We have a bunch of people that are awesome. We got my my buddy Zach, my friend Sophia, my buddy Jesus and like they'll pitch topics and ideas and like help aggregate the research and we go through it and then, you know, pick some stuff, write some jokes, slip some jokes in there.
22:40>> Dude, dude, the jokes are [ __ ] phenomenal.
22:43>> I appreciate that.
22:43>> Cuz your timing is so good with [laughter] it. Like the little things. I was seeing one recently. I think I was watching the Freemasons one.
22:50>> Mhm.
22:51>> And you're like, Christos, do you want to talk? He starts to say something.
22:53Well, that wasn't important now.
22:54[laughter] >> That's become a running gag throughout the episode. I mean, where did they even start? Do you remember?
23:00>> It was on >> All right, all right, all right. So, look, it's like [laughter] he just tries to jump in all the time, just nonstop every pod I do. It's really annoying, to be honest.
23:05>> least he's not on the other side of a [ __ ] wall now. [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly.
23:09>> Mark used to have this poor guy like there was like a wall separating him.
23:13You have to like yell through the wall.
23:14And he was in a little lair.
23:16>> He was in East Berlin.
23:17>> Harry Potter's [laughter] like under What's What was that thing called? The cupboard?
23:21>> Yeah, exactly.
23:22>> a cupboard. We're in this nice [ __ ] studio in Ken Super.
23:25>> Yeah, we brought him inside finally.
23:26>> Yeah, Jesus.
23:28>> [laughter] >> But no, that's a running gag we do every episode that uh I think Chris does it.
23:32>> I love the timing on it. I love [laughter] I love the timing on it. But, you know, like you're also it's it's funny, but you're talking about real things. Including some Sometimes obviously you're covering one where you're like, all right, a lot of people are saying this one's not real, but here's what's reported on it. But then you're talking about other things like the Freemasons that are like, but turn over a [ __ ] dollar, bro.
23:52This is 100% real.
23:54>> that's the thing that I find interesting about conspiracy stuff. Like obviously being raised in the home that I was raised in, I was like inoculated with this from a young age. But like I was I was vaxed out. That was the only vax I got actually was conspiracy [ __ ] But uh it's like I think that by discrediting stuff and like writing it off, you just leave way more room for people to run with crazy narratives and bad actors that are trying to make money off you. And so I'm like, okay, let's just examine what's actually out here and why people believe this, right? Like was America founded by
24:22Freemasons? You're like, they sort of, you know, like a lot of high-ranking like founding fathers were part of the Freemasons. Is it this evil satanic cult trying to like you know, do child sacrifice? I'm like, sure, there's bad actors in every society, but it seems like it was like a men's club where guys would share ideas. So I'm like >> Did you join?
24:36>> I wish. I wish, dude. I think I I actually went to the Freemasonic Temple in Boston. And like walked around and toured it. It's kind of sick. It's like one of the oldest ones in the US. And I knew a guy that ended up buying the restaurant that was connected to it. He was like, yeah, we have access. Do you want to go look? And I was like, yeah.
24:55So they like >> a little tunnel?
24:56>> No, it was like just a bunch of different rooms.
24:59>> That's only in Brooklyn.
25:00>> [laughter] >> Dave, you got something?
25:02>> Uh I was going to say that the show that I brought to the Edinburgh Fringe in 2022, our theater was an old Freemasons temple.
25:11>> Oh, there's a bunch.
25:12>> Yeah.
25:12>> A lot of them are defunct. Like the the Masonic in San Francisco is like a massive performing arts venue. It's like concerts and comedians. Like we performed there. Like a bunch of Like it's like a just like a theater.
25:23>> Do you feel the ghosts in the walls?
25:25>> Yeah, exactly, dude. You can hear George Washington talk to you. Like what is that?
25:28>> [ __ ] [laughter] >> Oh, dude, is Ben Franklin in here?
25:30>> Yeah, Ben Franklin was Masonic.
25:32>> Mhm. A bunch of them. But again, I don't subscribe to this idea that like it's a satanic cult doing death rituals to like children to like drink their blood, which like is part of Not I don't even know if anyone even believes that, but like you just hear crazy stuff. I'm like My assumption is that it's a uh like an organized society based off of like Old Testament like mystical schools like, you know, King Solomon obviously is one of the founding sort of like I guess philosophical like ethoses that kind of fit into Freemason like Freemasonry. But it's like this medieval like men's club where like philosophers
26:04and like new age kind of thinkers were meeting and talking, and then it carried on the tradition. It's kind of like a frat.
26:09>> Yeah.
26:09>> Is the way I see it.
26:10>> That's how it That's how it always kind of felt, but [clears throat] people run with it and they're like, "No, they're controlling the world."
26:16>> At a point they did.
26:17>> Maybe.
26:17>> At a point they did.
26:18>> yeah.
26:19>> I don't I think I It's All the Masons I've ever met are just like a bunch of old dudes that sit around and wear cool outfits.
26:25>> Right. They wear like the kilt.
26:26>> They're little capes. [snorts] >> Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:28>> Which people say is the the Google Mail logo. You ever seen that?
26:31>> The Google Mail logo which is the Masonic logo?
26:34>> Yeah, this is This is again, maybe. I have no idea.
26:37>> the 33rd floor?
26:38>> Exactly, dude. Exactly. Like And so, I'm like >> Hashtag Blackstone.
26:42>> I'm [laughter] like maybe. Again, I'm not ever saying what it is or isn't.
26:46>> on.
26:46>> This is what they wear. They They wear like this sort of like red little apron thing.
26:51>> I would have thought scarlet letter more than that, but no, I don't >> People are like, "Dude, this is literally Gmail. Gmail is Masonic now.
26:57That's how they got Epstein." What it what >> [laughter] >> It is. He's messaging from a Gmail.
27:02Like, dude, like use Proton or something. Like, use Telegram. Like, what? Gmail?
27:07>> the [ __ ] Ivory Coast via Gmail on the Joey D vacation@gmail.com.
27:12>> you doing, dude?
27:13>> It's incredible.
27:14>> Have you emailed that email yet? We should.
27:16Just see if anyone's reading that.
27:17>> one off from Joey Dief.
27:18>> Dude, another great little uh >> [laughter] >> So, he gets the last guy pulls him up.
27:25Yeah, I'm hearing about this Joey Dief.
27:27Have you ever heard of him before?
27:28>> to be at Edinburgh Fringe next year.
27:30That might be a good way to promote your dates. I'm just saying.
27:32>> Performing at the venue from 15:00 to 16:00.
27:35>> Yeah, I might do that. I might just drop my tour dates in an email to Epstein.
27:38[laughter] Hope it gets released. And then people are like, "Wait, Mark's in here?"
27:43Wait a second. He's going to be at Zanies in Chicago?
27:46>> [laughter] >> Got to go see this guy.
27:48>> Oh my god.
27:50>> But yeah, I'm like there's there's all sorts of weird [ __ ] with that. The one that I think is really funny is uh have you seen Maxwell Hill? Have you heard of this?
27:58>> People suspect that Ghislaine Maxwell was a power broker on Reddit.
28:03>> Oh, I have seen this before. Do you think that's real?
28:07>> There's a lot of weird [ __ ] with it.
28:09>> All right, what's the weird [ __ ] >> Well, like Okay, a couple of things is that there's basically a Reddit account that is like a mod on like the top subreddits. Like, world news and like all the biggest ones that have millions that are getting their news every single day coming from Reddit. And there's like a bigger conspiracy that like uh intelligence and like different foreign operatives are a part of this like small community of people that control what you see on Reddit. And this is like millions of people getting their information with a disproportionately small group of anonymous editors that
28:39are like submitting links and getting instantly approved and getting to the front page.
28:42>> That doesn't sound crazy.
28:44>> It's not.
28:45>> Yeah.
28:45>> So, that part is a little a weird. And people suspect that, you know, well, people don't suspect this this is true that there is an account called Maxwell Hill that was disseminating a ton of information across all of these different Reddit accounts or all of these different subreddits basically like promoting different ideas. And a lot of it was just like regular news stuff, but people look at a lot of the comments and they say, "Oh, they're using a lot of like British colloquialisms." Saying like bloody hell and like spelling color like o u r.
29:14>> Yeah.
29:14>> And so, it's like a lot of like Britishisms. And then there's even like p l s e which I need to double-check. I think she's saying please, but normally when people when normally when people will abbreviate please, they'll do p l s. She's doing it the British way p l s e. And if you look at the emails that she has corresponding with Jeffrey Epstein, there's a lot of the same words that are used. Not to [snorts] mention that the day she was arrested, the account never posted again.
29:40You can fact-check me on this. Please.
29:41I'm pretty sure that's the case.
29:42>> That is interesting.
29:44>> posts every single day multiple times a day all the way up until the day she was arrested. And then since the day she was arrested, the account has been inactive.
29:52>> You know what I think about with this whole case, not just this one example, >> Well, her name's Ghislaine Maxwell and the account is called Maxwell Hill.
29:58>> Right. That's what I'm saying. It's like if I were and I don't know who this would be or what the motives would be. I have my thoughts on who Epstein is and who he worked for and all that, but it's he's obviously someone who, especially by the end of his life, had a very high profile. He was known to probably every functional tell intelligence agency around the world.
30:19If I were any type of foreign actor trying to create mass hysteria confusion, insert adjective here along those lines.
30:36And I knew about cases like this.
30:40I might do something like this. I might, you know, have a little side gig for the [ __ ] analyst over here. Hey, you know, use some British colloquialism, set up this account, call it something really obvious, too.
30:51And then, you know, if she ever goes down, well, shut it down.
30:55>> Possible.
30:56>> It's possible, or it's exactly what it looks like. And it's like that when you look at that, that is zero to a hundred.
31:02There's like no >> [laughter] >> There's no middle Those are complete opposite scenarios. That's what makes it so confusing. And sometimes it's like there are there are some conspiracies that are so true and so [ __ ] obvious and right in your face, and you know it, and it's not like if you brought it into a court of law, if it were ever allowed to be in a [ __ ] real court of law, they'd be the jury wouldn't even go back to deliberate. It It's guilty.
31:27>> Yeah.
31:27>> But if I were the people who were a part of those things or whose livelihood depended on, you know, things like that being shoved under the rug, I would try to promote a massive campaign >> using the internet, of course, >> to try to get people to believe everything.
31:44>> Mhm.
31:44>> Believe that the earth is flat, believe that, you know, [ __ ] you know, the sun gods are coming down to do whatever the [ __ ] to an alien anal probe. You insert it here. So that all these the people who had the loudest voices would run with everything. Such that >> going to use round numbers here. Let's say they were screaming about ten different conspiracies. And one of them's Epstein. It's a hundred percent true. Everything they're saying is actually like bar for bar, word for word true.
32:09>> Mhm.
32:10>> I could [clears throat] then discredit them by saying, "Oh, you're going to listen to this guy? Look at the other shitty beliefs."
32:15>> Disinformation.
32:16>> would do.
32:16>> Yeah. Yeah, it's not crazy to me. And like, again, if you're putting in a bunch of [ __ ] I mean, like, people will say like the term conspiracy theorist was like created by the government.
32:24That's the whole thing.
32:25>> They Yeah, the CIA.
32:26>> Yeah. So, it's like potentially you'd like put in a bunch of good stuff with the bad stuff. And by good, I mean true, and then bad false. And you just kind of mix them up, and then you can discredit people pretty easily. Which is possible, which is why I'm like just be extremely scrutinizing with everything you consume. And that's why I'm like kind of averse to certainty. I'm like I kind of leave everything as like maybe. Like I don't really assume that I know anything unless I've like interacted or like seen something with my own eyes. Like I generally try to keep a little air of humility. Like yeah, I don't really
32:55know.
32:56>> Good for you.
32:56>> I like more or less. I hope I've done that today. I'm like yeah, maybe. Was Crowley talking to an alien? Maybe.
33:02>> Right.
33:02>> Is Epstein ever >> Just asking questions here.
33:04>> Yeah, just asking questions. Just you know, I think it's interesting. I think it's worth examining. But again, I'm never going to say it is or it isn't.
33:09But is it possible that Ghislaine Maxwell you know understood the power of media and the power of controlling information and maybe she learned it from a newspaper magnate that you know is shares her same name that happens to be her father that's connected with intelligence. I mean it's possible.
33:26But who knows?
33:27I don't claim to know.
33:28>> Okay.
33:28>> And if there is a a good faith person that's running the Maxwell Hill account that I've completely besmirched, I apologize and uh >> Yeah, good preemptive apology.
33:35>> Yeah, and this is all alleged and we're just kind of making stuff up.
33:37>> alleged. But you know, just asking questions here from my end. [laughter] Not marrying you to anything. But what do you think Epstein was?
33:46>> I think it connected to everything.
33:48>> Mhm.
33:49>> I think he was just like a power broker that liked to conquer [ __ ] and also happened to be a pedophile. You know what I mean? Like and he was using all of this stuff connected. I wouldn't even surprise me if like he was you know sort of propped up because they knew that they had this uh like blackmail on him. They're like hey, you're you have this terrible like evil affliction where you try to abuse children and successfully do. And so as a result of your you know, predilection in this like evil thing that you do, we can now give you information because you're compromised off rip. And then you can do a lot of
34:24our bidding and dirty work and like manage a lot of finance policies.
34:26>> use that.
34:27>> Exactly. So like that wouldn't surprise me. And I think he's probably connected everyone. He's like making deals with whoever is going to get him more power.
34:34So, if he's you you know working with CIA, sure. If he's working with you know foreign intelligence, Mossad, MI6, I'm sure he's connected to everyone. I don't think that he has uh super strong nationalistic lines except for what makes Jeffrey Epstein more money and more power.
34:47>> Yeah, I could see how intelligence services over the years of course were discovering, you know, insert country here whether it be the US, UK, wherever, we're discovering that this intelligence asset was running some of the sickest [ __ ] twisted things right under their nose and they realized people in their own [ __ ] government were now blackmailed by it and so they knew there was a line on what they actually could do with them and I have personally my opinion I don't have a lot of doubt that these organizations, be it MI6, be it CIA, you insert it here, you know, would have gone to a guy like
35:20that and said it's like two people holding a gun to each other. Like, okay, you know that we know that you know that we know that we can't actually stop you from doing this because of what you know about what we know about what you know about what we know. Therefore, you're now paying a tax, [ __ ] >> Yeah.
35:35>> So, if we want some information, you're going to give it to us, you know, and you get to do your sick sadistic twisted [ __ ] and they make literally the deal with the devil.
35:45>> Yeah.
35:45>> I could see that and I think that's why a lot of these countries around the world don't want to talk about this because they may look at it and say, "Oh, you know, he he was like a Mossad guy or something like that, but then we all got involved, too."
35:59>> Yeah, everyone's I I think I don't think anyone's hands are clean. Like, people try to pin it on one specific country.
36:05Everyone's like, "Oh, he's obviously connected with these people." I'm like, he was given a sweetheart deal in the United States.
36:10You know what I mean? Like, he was operating generally with impunity in the United States.
36:14>> they're going to say in the comments, "Mark, don't you know the Jews run the world?"
36:18>> Exactly. I'm like, look, I think he's connected to anyone that's willing to cut him a deal.
36:23>> I I think the emails actually are making that case more than ever.
36:29>> Mhm.
36:29>> Reading through this and seeing all the different countries he's like getting involved with the senior government and it's like, "What the fuck?" Like sometimes countries you never [ __ ] heard of.
36:37>> Yeah, yeah, he's >> And you're like, "This guy is just you know, yes, he's running around with Ehud Barak for sure and that's not great in every way and and yeah, I think that's where it emanated from probably with Israel." But >> He's telling Prince Andrew >> it becomes this whole thing.
36:51>> Yeah. I again, I I almost look at him like Crowley in a way where I'm like you were willing to just do reconnaissance for whomever was going to just like cut you a deal.
37:00>> Yeah.
37:01>> And I think he was like, yeah, eventually like everyone's got comprom- like compromat on me, I got compromat on them. We're in a standoff.
37:07>> Yeah, I asked We had Lawrence Krauss in here in 2023 or whatever and you know, he was a physicist who got his [ __ ] funded by Epstein.
37:17>> Mhm.
37:17>> He went to the island and everything and you're asking him about it. He's like, "Well, physicists need money. He was offering money."
37:23And he was like legit friends with the guy and it's like, you're always going to anytime you meet someone that this guy touched or it was around it's a bad word to use, but you know what I mean, was around there's always going to be that question lingering. You you know, maybe, maybe not, but there is no doubt that he had a tremendous ability to obviously schmooze people who really were pedophiles or sick sadistic [ __ ] which there's no doubt that there is an uncomfortable number of people in positions of power if you will who are that.
37:57But he was also able to schmooze other people who weren't.
38:00>> Yeah.
38:00>> And by doing that associate them with the whole thing and make them dirtied forever.
38:05>> Yeah.
38:05>> And though and I your guess is as good as mine which people are which, you know, there's some where I think we could say definitely in one way, but like you know, the ones who actually didn't do anything and just got besmirched by or whatever.
38:20>> Yeah.
38:22>> I feel a little bit bad for some of them. Some of them it's like, you know, you're like, "Dude, you Why were you still talking to him in 2014?
38:29>> You know he was convicted in 2004.
38:30[laughter] Like, you should have known.
38:32>> Yeah.
38:32>> But yeah, no, there's people going to the island in 1999 and they're like, "Yeah, I didn't know." And maybe they're lying, maybe they're telling the truth.
38:37Again, I don't know. I don't know these people. So, I'm just like going off [snorts] word. But like, I I wouldn't be surprised if this is an attempt to like, yeah, get everyone wrapped up with him.
38:46>> Yep.
38:46>> And then everyone's a little dirty and then everyone shuts the [ __ ] up.
38:49>> That's right.
38:50>> And we can keep on like funding this coup in this country and sending weapons to this country. And I think the financial dealings are in a way like almost dirtier.
38:59>> Mhm.
39:00>> Obviously like his uh sex trafficking operation is like the most vile thing you can do on human earth.
39:05>> But it's like the financial operations implicates way more people.
39:09>> Yep.
39:10>> You know what I mean? Like, let's say a couple hundred people are going to this island to do, you know, like criminal sexual activity. It's like, oh, well, how many hundreds of thousands are in >> a civil war that killed a >> Yeah.
39:21>> Like, how many people are saying >> How many people are implicated in the financial crimes >> Yeah.
39:24>> that he was basically operating as like a you know, almost like a financial black site where it's like, "Hey, some money here, funds people here."
39:32I think they I think a lot of people benefited from everyone being wrapped up and dirty in this web.
39:38>> I think you're right.
39:39>> And the fact that uh yeah, every government is run by pedophiles. My mom's right.
39:43>> Misses Gagnon was onto [laughter] it.
39:45She was She was an early adopter, as you will.
39:47>> Exactly. Exactly.
39:48>> She bought the iPhone 1 on >> on the pedophile government thing.
39:51>> [laughter] >> But you know, I had Mikey Aegly sitting in that seat a couple times. And it was funny cuz at the end of end of the first episode we did, we recorded the whole thing.
40:00And basically he's a a data expert who can go through data and figure out what people are doing and where they are like as a publicly accessible spying tool. And so, he runs through his whole history with this and how he brought it to the government going, "You guys got a [ __ ] problem."
40:16And then at the end of our first conversation, he's like, "Yeah, we didn't even get to Epstein today." I'm like, "What?"
40:21He's like, "Oh yeah, I was tracking people to the island." I'm like, "Damn it, you say that at the beginning of the episode, not the end."
40:25>> What?
40:26>> So, I brought him back that we did 343.
40:28I brought him back right away. We did 351. And he went through that whole thing. When the Epstein story came out like really mainstream in 2019, he's like, "Oh, I can go buy data from 2015, 2016, 2017 right in there." And long after he was convicted and see who's down there. And he's like he's got it down to the names of the bartenders who were there standing across from Bill Gates while he's on the island.
40:51>> Wow.
40:52>> And he's and and I said "Obviously, you're very connected with the government now because you had uncovered you basically over a decade ago he had uncovered all this [ __ ] about some of their missions being publicly available, clandestine missions anyone could [ __ ] get it from their bedroom if they tried."
41:07And I'm like "What do you do with this information?"
41:10He said, "No one ever called about it."
41:13And you could tell like Mike Yeagley looks like he's about to have a brain aneurysm the whole time [laughter] that he's talking, but you could tell like that vein in his forehead was just like, "They never called."
41:22>> Whoa.
41:23>> And you're just like, of course they didn't.
41:25>> You got to wonder why they didn't.
41:27>> [laughter] >> They're like, "Yeah, we know."
41:30Gates is our guy.
41:31>> Yeah. And there's probably other people doing similar [ __ ] And maybe it's not to the scale or maybe it's not this exact pathway, but it's like yeah, there's this guy that's cheating on his wife and he's being used as a tool for this operation.
41:45>> That's right. There's this dude who's secretly gay and living in a country where it's illegal and he's doing this thing.
41:50You're not going to give someone power and information without having some type of some type of rope on it, you know?
41:55>> That's the great I don't want to call it a hypocrisy, but that's a great oversight I think people who really look at this case have. It's like the thing about Epstein is that he was so overt about it and he got cocky.
42:08>> Yeah.
42:09>> And just he liked being seen. Right? And that did him in. That's he did himself in. He went from being a very effective spy, if you will, to being a very bad spy, because the number one thing about a spy is that any of these guys will tell you, you don't want to be noticed. And he learned how to get noticed and liked getting noticed.
42:30And it's like that makes it extra in your face, and then the scale of people that we now know he was attached to, the names, it's just like in your [ __ ] face.
42:44To to say though that that doesn't happen at a way more uncomfortable scale than we think across intelligence agencies around the world and here would be naive, in my opinion.
42:57>> Yeah, but it goes against the people He goes against the American ethos. We're the good guys.
43:00>> Yeah, we're supposed to be.
43:01>> do anything wrong.
43:02>> But that's the thing, Mark. You have an organization of tens of thousands of people, and it's compartmentalized. All you need is five people to be in on something that other people don't have reading on. They talk about it in a skiff, and they run a mission.
43:14>> And they say, you think all these people can keep a secret?
43:17Some people still Some people still believe in Santa.
43:20>> [laughter] >> Right? Bringing it all the way back, dude. Some people believe it way too long.
43:24>> Do you think the Freemasons invented Santa as like a side up on society?
43:27>> Oh, that's far.
43:29>> Let's think about it. Let's think about it.
43:31>> I thought about that in the Amazon reading my book.
43:32>> [laughter] >> We didn't even talk about that. I wanted to get a whole deep dive on your on your Amazon experience.
43:39>> We'll do that in another episode.
43:40>> wait. But uh Santa, I mean, I pretty sure Santa came out of like it was just like Dutch like Santa culture or something. I heard they made him red because of Coca-Cola.
43:51I don't know if you've ever heard that.
43:52>> No.
43:53>> Yeah, yeah. Some people Some people >> I don't even want to Google that.
43:55>> Some people Some people think he's red because there was like a mushroom that people used to take during the pagan holiday that fell on the winter solstice.
44:01>> Exactly. Use my link, JD22.
44:04>> [laughter] >> He's sponsored.
44:06>> That's right.
44:06>> [gasps] >> But it's like the red and white mushroom that people would take.
44:10But uh Ah, no, Santa's probably not Freemasons, but maybe.
44:15>> What is the history that like when did the Freemasons begin?
44:19>> The technical beginning is medieval. I think it's like 1300, 1400.
44:25>> And they literally started as like stone masons cuz they wanted to like build [ __ ] after the plague? Is that right?
44:31>> It was like a guild basically of like stone masons that were like smart coming together forming a union and then it kind of got imbued with like mystical elements that hearkened back to the second temple period of ancient Israel where King Solomon basically built, you know, the temple for the Jews. That was then destroyed by The second one was by the Babylonians. And so Hiram Abiff was this a This is not in the Torah or anything, but this is like alleged through like Jewish folklore that Hiram Abiff was a Phoenician architect. And the Phoenicians at the time were the ones that were building all the cool [ __ ] in the area. So they
45:06bring [snorts] in this Phoenician architect that's able to build the second temple and his name is Hiram Abiff. And in Freemasonic lore, Hiram Abiff is like the master builder, the master mason that has all of this unknown knowledge that's able to know how to build these amazing structures. There's also an element where like some people believe that King Solomon used demons to build temples that he was like given a ring that was from like one of the [snorts] archangels that basically was able to like control the spirit world and that was part of how they built it. And this is again folklore. And
45:36the masons like when the Freemasons actually developed in like medieval Europe, it was hearkening back to this period. But technically the actual formation is like around medieval times.
45:45And then American Freemasonry comes out of like Scottish Rite Freemasonry that is kind of like a reinterpretation of old European masons, but it was developed by Albert Pike who was a former Confederate general that ends up being relieved of his duties as a Confederate general and then develops >> General? Not a United States >> No, this is during Civil War.
46:07>> Oh, it's during Civil War.
46:08>> Yeah, yeah, that Scottish Rite Freemasonry comes out of Albert Pike's hand.
46:11>> you I'm thinking like pre-revolution.
46:14So, my timeline's off. Okay.
46:15>> it like Freemasonry seems like it really develops in America around Civil War time from Albert Pike.
46:21>> But it was very existent pre-revolution.
46:24>> guard and it kind of like lost some of its allure because it went too public, dah dah dah. So, people were trying to like they got ostracized. A lot of people left cuz there was like a bunch of scandals that happened. And then Scottish Rite Freemasonry kind of like rebirthed it in America.
46:37>> What were the scandals?
46:38>> I'm trying to remember exactly. There was specific scandals where like one of the lodges went very public. And they were like, "No, the whole thing is they were supposed to be underground." And so, they went very public and then there was another scandal. I forget what it was. There was one that like kind of did them in. I can't remember specifically.
46:54But it was like some type of death or like there was a cover-up. Oh, there was >> William Morgan disappearance, 1826?
47:01>> William Morgan, yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:03So, this was one of the ones in America that basically this guy was associated with the Masons and then there was like a big clash with like the religious elite and the Masons cuz they always hated each other. And then he ends up disappearing and no one ever finds out where he's from or where he went or anything like that. And they're like, "Oh, the Masons killed him." And then it became a whole scandal that like really affected like the philosophy and the idea around Freemasons in America. And then Albert Pike writes his book that basically becomes the handbook for Scottish Rite Freemasonry.
47:30>> How Can we Google this, Steve? How many US presidents are confirmed Masons?
47:35>> I'm trying to remember. I think it was like 13. That's That's going to be my number. I'm going to I'm going to go with 13. What do you think?
47:40>> I know there were 13 Declaration of Independence signers or Constitution signers, one >> 15.
47:46>> 15, including Lyndon B. Johnson who took only the first degree, so he wasn't >> Yeah, he barely. Yeah, I mean, barely.
47:54>> recent one to have undisputed membership, Undisputed was So that's Gerald Ford, but does that mean it was like disputed to Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton or Mason?
48:04>> that's the idea is like all they're connected to it in some way. Or that there's other presidents that were in, but they weren't dah dah dah. Yeah, isn't Shaq a Mason?
48:11>> Possibly.
48:12>> There's a pretty sure, yeah.
48:12>> Prince Hall Freemasonry He talked about it.
48:14>> Prince Hall Freemasonry is basically like the black rebirth of Masons in America. Where >> Can we Google that?
48:20>> They didn't Yeah, I don't want to get that wrong if I'm wrong.
48:23>> It might be true, I don't know. I love Shaq, by the way.
48:25>> [laughter] >> I don't care what he is.
48:26>> That's a really interesting thing. A lot of Masons that I've met in Florida were all black dudes.
48:30>> Interesting.
48:30>> And they came through Prince Hall Freemasonry.
48:32>> Yeah, he was a Yes, Shaquille O'Neal is a Freemason. He was initiated into the Prince Hall Freemasonry Freemasonry at the Widow's Sons Lodge number 28 in Boston, Massachusetts and was granted the rare honor of being made a Master Mason at sight.
48:47>> Yeah, I get it.
48:47>> You need that clout.
48:48>> I get it, dude.
48:49>> You see Shaq walk in a room and you're like, yeah, that guy is >> That guy is the the chief.
48:54>> Whatever. Make him >> [laughter] >> Make him the president, dude. That's the scariest dude I've ever seen.
48:59>> But yeah, like Prince Hall Freemasonry was basically like Again, it's contested within like Mason circles, which is why I'm like do they run the world like they're having set beefs? You know what I mean?
49:09Like they have sectarian like disputes.
49:11Because Prince Hall Freemasonry was basically like, yeah, we're going to let black people become Masons.
49:16And it became like a whole contingent of like part of like the civil rights movement where like you had a lot of like black dudes basically gathering together in these Masonic halls like, hey, we should have rights. And they were like, yeah. And so they were it gave like a meeting place for a lot of like early civil rights stuff. Was coming out of Prince Hall Freemasonry.
49:32So that's why I feel like it's just a frat.
49:34>> I mean, in the in the Yeah, in the modern day it feels that way. But like there's no doubt that there was some influence for sure. I mean, you look at this country and regardless of the sect that you're more familiar with that than I am, but like in general, obviously, you know, whether it be George Washington or Ben Franklin or some of these guys like they were strong Freemasons throughout their life. But isn't there also isn't there some evidence that they have some like attachment to the Vatican and to like some of the organized religions, too?
50:07>> Yeah, I'm actually not as versed on this. I try to keep the Vatican's name completely clean and pure as a Catholic.
50:13Right. Which they've never done anything wrong.
50:14>> Oh, you're still Catholic?
50:16>> The Vatican's completely fine and is good. But I mean, the Vatican and I mean Catholics and Freemasons have basically gone at each other forever.
50:24And that the Catholic Church is like, "Hey, we're the hegemon of Europe. Like we control everything. Like we we you know, like they are massive political players specifically in this time in Europe and the Masons are in a way usurping that." And so the Pope's like, "Yo, we got to get rid of these Masons." That's like the political side of it. There's like a more ideological side that's like the Masons are operating without God and we're with God and that ideologically is people are going against the will of God. But as far as like a direct connection, I don't know exactly. I'm sure there's probably
50:54people that are connected like Popes that were like allegedly Masons and stuff, but I don't know.
50:58>> do we Can we Google what what do Freemasons traditionally believe about God?
51:06I want to make sure I get this right.
51:08I've I've read about this before.
51:10But it's like All right. So Freemasons are traditionally required to believe in a supreme being referred to as the Grand Architect of the Universe, but the specific nature of this deity is left to the individual Mason's personal beliefs and religion. Freemasonry is not a religion itself and does not promote one specific faith, but rather requires members to have a spiritual foundation. Yeah. So I remember like >> The church didn't like that.
51:37>> Yeah, I The church is like, "No, you listen to us."
51:38>> Yeah, they're like, "You got to read the Christian Catholic Bible." Yeah.
51:42But I think it was in Walter Isaacson's biography of Ben Franklin where like he talked about Ben Franklin's view on like there being one supreme creator, but he never ascribed to like a religion itself. And it was there were like some Masonic undertones there. So >> Well, I think Ben Franklin was a deist.
52:00So this idea of like the watchmaker that basically like God put the world in motion but is not active in the day-to-day, you know, happenings of humans on Earth. That is sort of >> got to do that.
52:11>> Basically, yeah, we are sort of on our own. Like God invented every like put all motion into the universe, but then he kind of takes takes a step back.
52:19Which kind of goes against typical Christian orthodoxy. Like no, God is alive and present and doing things in the day-to-day. And so deism, I think, comes out of some Masonic ideals, which I might be some of the connection. Not to mention Ben Franklin was like a part of a bunch of other secret societies.
52:34>> Yeah.
52:34>> Hellfire Club in London.
52:36>> Yeah.
52:36>> It was just like which is again why I'm like, yeah, you just go to these groups where like philosophers and economists and smart people of the day are gathering.
52:44>> And [ __ ] like >> pornstars. Do whatever you want.
52:47>> There was a lot of that going >> exactly.
52:49>> I know he liked that [ __ ] commission to France during the revolution.
52:52>> [laughter] >> Exactly.
52:52>> [ __ ] yeah, send me by land, by boat, whatever the [ __ ] I'll get over >> No one knows what I'm doing. I'm just in Paris alone. It's like >> Negotiating [ __ ] war deals and >> getting some land.
53:01>> Getting some poon tang.
53:03>> Exactly.
53:03>> Something like that.
53:04>> Exactly.
53:05>> No, it's What was I Is there any historical maybe not even historical tie, but like mythological tie between Freemasons and like the Templars?
53:20Cuz we're talking a similarish time period.
53:23>> curious. I don't know if there's a direct connection, but I do know that like the Templars were almost operating in a similar way.
53:30>> Yeah, well, actually the way I just said that is a little prophetic. The connection between Freemasons and the Knights Templar is based on myth and legend, not historical fact. The modern Masonic Templar orders were were created in the 18th century to provide a more romantic Christian themed mythology for Freemasonry, but there's no evidence the original medieval Knights Templar survived and merged with Freemasonry.
53:54Not according to Dan Brown. This supposed link was popularized in the 18th century by figures like Chevalier Ramsey and is used to add a layer of historical depth and symbolism to certain Masonic degrees, not to claim a direct historical lineage. Well, there you have it.
54:09>> Yeah, I mean I think the the Nazis in ways are like pulling from the Templars.
54:12So like the Templars like >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:15>> Oh, don't do that.
54:15>> Yeah, no, there's like flags and like symbolism of like I mean old Hitty was grabbing from everyone. He was taking a little thing from Hinduism, taking a little thing from the Templars.
54:23But it's like yeah, everyone I think sort of >> [snorts] >> like romanticized like this Like to the Templars like mythologically are romantic where it's like yeah, these guys were a group of Christian warriors that defended Europe during the Crusades. Like that this is a a militia force that was standing with God.
54:40>> Yeah.
54:41>> And that's kind of how everyone every different faction of the world sees themselves. Like the Nazis were like yes, we're doing God's will and we're going to we're going to you know, what I mean? So it's like that same thing and I think people just take from the Templars to be like yes, we're going to do God's will and defend our people.
54:56Which as you can see a lot of neo-Nazis were like oh yeah, we're going to defend we're going to defend Europe. Like yeah, that sounds nice. And so I think a lot of people romanticized the Templars and they also had good imagery. You know what I mean?
55:06>> Yeah.
55:07>> All those flags and stuff.
55:08>> The flags were kind of fire.
55:10>> So I think everyone Templars.
55:12>> [laughter] >> Got to be careful here.
55:13>> Yeah, don't don't don't clip me. Don't clip me.
55:15>> Let's not take that the next step. It's No, it's it's very fascinating. Like I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the brain of some of the people at the helm of like the most evil societies or governments or movements ever created just to see like how they mentally do the gymnastics to truly believe that they're Jesus. Like they're the good guy.
55:38>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're right and they're actually like doing great for humanity. Like, they actually convinced themselves of that.
55:43>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it probably comes out of like trauma to an extent.
55:46Like, I think people are like so aggrieved by whatever the circumstances are and then they hear a very like simple explanation that justifies everything. It's like, "Oh, if we go to war with these people, if we kick out these people, if we genocide these people, then everything will be fixed.
55:59That's the only thing standing in our way." And they're like, "Yeah, let's just do it." And I think you can literally take that same It It all comes from that base level of like there are real problems that are affecting us. And then our our women are dying, our children are dying. Like, we need to do something. And then you just get a slick little thread that can tie everyone up and they're like, "Hey, yeah, in-group, out-group." AKA Twitter.
56:20>> [laughter] >> Exactly.
56:22>> What are you trying to do with with Camp Mark? It's [ __ ] growing like crazy.
56:26You've been doing an amazing job for a long time. You're hundreds of episodes in. You're obviously very fascinated in the different subject matters that you dig into. You seem like you're a kid in Toys "R" Us about it. That's a compliment.
56:37>> [laughter] >> Exactly. That's how I feel.
56:38>> Where are you trying to go with this?
56:40>> Honestly, I just want it to grow. Like, that's like the only thing. Like, if I can just get more people to join the camp and like be a part of it. Like, that's the only thing. But, I'll I'll be honest.
56:50Like, maybe I need I need like a more like Alexander the Great mentality.
56:55>> Conqueror.
56:56>> Exactly. Cuz part of me is like, yeah, I'm pretty happy with it. I'm stuck. Like, I get to show up every day and like read awesome stuff and like research cool [ __ ] that like I've always wanted to look into, but I never had the time for and now I can do it and do it with a bunch of other people. And like, after shows, people come up to me and be like, "Dude, that episode on on Vishnu was crazy."
57:14>> Like, [ __ ] yeah.
57:15>> Dude, that episode on Napoleon blew my mind.
57:17>> That hard ass blunt today, though.
57:18>> Dude, that thing you did on remote viewing was insane. Like, to me, I'm like, that is so cool that I'm becoming less dumb.
57:25Like, [laughter] and then I can help someone else also be a little bit less dumb. Like, that's the greatest thing ever. So, to me, it's like I love religion. I get to explore every different type of religion. Like, everything you can imagine, any type of religious philosophy, I get to actually understand it in like a real way that's not like agendized with like America first or some other [ __ ] that like makes it bad. I'm like, okay, what did they actually feel about this? And then having the comments verify that and be like, dude, I'm Hindu and you nailed this. I'm like, yeah, that's sick. And then like, the history
57:54[ __ ] is like, okay, what's everything that's happened? A lot of shit's been going on. I only got here in the '90s.
57:59There's you know, potentially thousands of years before me that I got to figure out. So, I get to go through all that [ __ ] And then I get to talk to cool people that know way more than me. Like, it's the greatest thing in the world. Like, I mean, you know how it is. Like, there's no greater joy.
58:13>> Fun job.
58:14>> Right? To get paid to like talk to cool people. I mean, like, what a gift.
58:17>> You also got the coolest studio in the game, too.
58:20>> Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
58:21>> [ __ ] amazing.
58:21>> the lighting in here is pretty nice, but >> Yeah, we're working on it, but it's not a treehouse. That's like That's true.
58:26You got to go into Mark's studio sometime if you ever get a chance out there. People don't break in.
58:30>> Yeah, please don't break in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just ask.
58:33>> it's hard to get to. You got to go through like comb, a lot of security.
58:35>> Yeah, exactly. Bridges, tunnels, the whole deal.
58:38>> Yeah, he's just got like an AK next to him at all times.
58:40>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:41Yeah, we got Navy SEALs. We got the whole squad.
58:43>> Delta Force.
58:44>> But, it's like I get to talk to people all day, and I would do this for free. Like, I would legit do it for free.
58:52And the fact that there's other people that can get on board and like be a part of this mission of being less stupid, learning more about people and cultures and countries and everything.
59:01It's like, yeah, there's nothing better.
59:02>> Well, I think it's also cool cuz you get your own lane as well, you know, like [clears throat] like you obviously have come up with Andrew and have done Flagrant for a long time and like people know you through that, but now they also get to know you like really And it's And it's great that like Andrew has supported that along the way.
59:21>> I think the shows really compliment each other cuz it's like, all right guys, we're going to do like a fun deep dive on like a historical thing, a religious thing, a military thing, a whatever.
59:28And then on Flagrant, it's like, we're just going to do hot takes of the day.
59:32What's happening right now and how can we call each call each other gay?
59:35It's like, [laughter] what is the most unique and clever way I can call you gay? Like it's [snorts] like it's perfect. And the two things like I they fit so well and then you can watch a new one every day.
59:44>> [ __ ] yeah. All right, Camp Gagnon.
59:46>> Yes, sir.
59:47>> We will collab this so you can literally just click below and you'll see the name right there. Go subscribe. Go subscribe to Religion Camp as well.
59:56>> History Camp as well.
59:56>> There's the list of channels on Mark's channel when you go to the landing.
59:59Thank you guys for checking out this clip.
60:01>> If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
60:06And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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