0:01and the initial conversation starts on Roblox because that's where kids are.
0:06And again, parents can can u shut down this chat feature and you're not supposed to be able to chat if your age is is too far apart. But kids figure that out.
0:20>> Yes.
0:21>> And this has been going on for 15 years now. We interview a man who's now 30, children of his own, military guy, guy can deadlift 716 pounds, Woody.
0:37And he was abused 15 years ago as a boy on Roblox and was brought to tears. This tough guy was telling the story about, you know, being groomed by this predator, meeting him. Turns out he was an older guy and he tried to sexually assault him. Oh my god.
0:55>> And now he's, you know, got legal action against Roblox.
0:59>> How did we always use this term righteously so when we're describing how these predators win over the trust of their victims and it's called grooming, but there's all different ways that it occurs. What on roadblocks where you're dealing with something on the internet, which is also like what you've dealt with in your >> It's the same grooming. I mean, it it follows a template. It's either an older guy pretending to be somebody who's younger or it's an older guy who's going to co-opt and convince this child that he can provide something that the child needs or wants and little by little breaks down the
1:40traditional barriers that exist between adults and children in our society and convinces them to do something they shouldn't do.
1:49Is there a common kind of thing or like key that gets unlocked? That's a bad way to put it. Where the Rubicon every time it's the moment it gets crossed or does it really >> I think there are similarities but you know each case is different. Each child is vulnerable in their own way. Are they from a broken home? Do they are they currently having disagreements with their parents? Are their hormones raging? Do they do they want to be viewed as >> somebody older? Do they want freedom? Do they want money? Do they want jewelry? I mean, it's it's these guys know how to push the buttons. And the problem is is
2:24that this child may be in just a momentary uh location of vulnerability, but if the predator hits them at the exact right moment, it's a disaster.
2:35>> That's right.
2:35>> Right. Two days other either way, they're over it. You know, it's like sextortion. You know, the next documentary we have at True Blue is extortion. We examine all these cases where young men are or boys are online and they think they're talking to an attractive young woman and they trade naughty photos and it turns out it's not a young woman, it's a extortionist in Nigeria and now the guy wants money and the kid's got $500 in gift cards and gives all that away and then there's no more and he says, "Well, you know, f you. Kill yourself." These kids are so caught up in the moment. They think this
3:09guy is gonna, you know, publish the naughty photos and they can't get it out of their mind that this is a momentary thing. In two weeks, you grammar is not going to see it. In two weeks, nobody's going to care. But in the moment, the social media footprint, their presence, their identity is so intertwined with their ego that they don't see it. And and 15, 16 year old boys are killing themselves. I've sat with four sets of parents.
3:38There's a state legislature in South Carolina, Brandon Guffy, son killed himself. Same thing. And he goes and talks to people all the time about this.
3:48He tells his kids, he goes, "Look, first of all, your junk's probably out there already if you're, you know, so don't even don't even think about that being a problem because nobody cares. And you can go to NickMeg, National Center for Missing Exploited Children, and they'll help you scrub the internet of anything you may have sent inadvertently or anything you were tricked into sending.
4:06>> They can do that.
4:07>> They can do that. But the point of it is these kids who kill themselves because of a momentary sense of shame, if they wrote it out for another week, they're applying to colleges.
4:22>> Yeah.
4:23>> They're back with their girlfriend. I'm stupid. And so to me, a lot of this comes back to parents.
4:30>> Yep.
4:31>> And parents have to say, not I'm not blaming parents, but parents have to create an environment where if their child gets lured into something, they feel comfortable enough to say, "Look, I effed up. I need your help to get out of this." And the parents not going to yell at him. They can call him stupid after the fact or tease him about it or whatever. It becomes a joke at some point. What's not a joke is when the kid shoots himself in the head.
4:53>> Yeah. It's not a joke when the kid hangs himself in the closet.
4:57And man, I tell you, having kids of my own, you know, being out of the danger zone, nothing would ruin me, would destroy me like the death of a child. I could I'm a tough guy. I could deal with a whole lot of stuff.
5:15But losing a child at 15, 16 years old, anytime, you know, a child's death procedure is it is it is lifealtering.
5:23And the fact that they even get through this and can be advocates for other kids and other parents is nothing short of amazing to me. And I have nothing but enormous respect for all those parents who deal with this and for those who sat for the documentary which is like I said coming out after Roblox.
5:38>> Yeah, we'll have that link down below by the way. But yeah, I I can't I don't have kids of my own yet. I really look forward to having them. And you can't know what that's like until you and I, you know, I hope I I never know what it's like and I hope no other parent has to ever go through it again, but it's it's >> it's absolutely the most painful thing I could imagine.
6:02>> What about when you are, of course, you feel awful for every parent you sit with and they're devastated and that that's that that's that's a given.
6:12But how difficult is it when you're sitting with these parents who are devastated after the fact and it's one where you're hearing the story and you're seeing all the places where like they should have had more guard rails on there or they should have known or they should have monitored this this or that more.
6:29>> Well, you ask the question in a very sensitive way because it'll elicit a response that'll help another parent from know how to not go through it. But, you know, I don't go out to blame any parents. And, you know, I don't know what my kids did 24/7. I'm sure they had close calls. I had close calls that my parents never found out about.
6:48>> I mean, >> yeah.
6:50>> Inches from death. I grew up in an era where, you know, you walked out and with a BB gun and a bow and arrow and went to go play around in the woods for six hours when you're 10 years old. I mean, you know, we we weren't >> we weren't very tightly regulated, you And as the the oldest of three and the only boy, you know, you know, there were elements of your life where you were sort of raised by wolves. You know, you had your buddies and your pals, it was, you know, lord of the flies. We had a ball. Nobody ever got seriously hurt.
7:16Did we come close?
7:17>> Did you almost lose an eye? Did you almost crash a mini bike? Yeah, all that stuff.
7:21>> But for the grace of God, you know, and you've got to count on that. You need a little luck raising a kid. And and but sometimes you don't have that lucky stroke. And sometimes the kid makes a bad decision. And sometimes you're not there to catch it. And so all you can do is try to create an environment where the kid feels open enough where he can say, "Hey, you know, I got a problem here. You need to we need to get this fixed up." And then that's that's the best advice I can give. Um, and and even that's not foolproof, but that's why I harp on all these safety issues on Roblox. And Roblox is going to be all
7:53mad and, you know, we do more than any other platform. And fine, great, good on you. But let's let's tighten this up.
8:00And by the way, let's talk about it. Let's hear from these victims. Let's hear from the lawyers trying to hold the company accountable because that discussion creates awareness and a dialogue that needs to take place just like the predator investigations, the takedown investigations we do, all of this stuff.
8:21It's about awareness and dialogue. And if I can light a fire under people and get them to talk about it with their kids, that I've won. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my
8:49Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already.
8:58I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description.
9:03>> Well, it's also you make a great point that the company should want to sit down with you and should want to be transparent to fix the problem. And that's a mistake on their >> and they do sit down with other people, but again, it tends to be, you know, with people in the >> tech friendly. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't count. I'm saying like with someone like you who's really trying to solve this problem, if I could see outside of you, if I could see from their perspective with some of these class action lawsuits and stuff like that with lawyers, you know, those lawyers are doing their job and they're representing usually
9:35families who whose kids were victim suffered in one way or another.
9:38>> Exactly. So, I'm not blaming the lawyers or anything like that, but I could see from the company's perspective how it might get like scary to to even address that. But, you know what I mean?
9:49>> You also see a pattern of behavior on the part of Roblox where they, you know, they're trying to hire the uh spokesman for the, you know, Republican Attorneys General Association. You know, they they try to get people in law enforcement to be on their team. They donate money to the Alliance of Attorneys General. you know, they want to be able to say we're we're the we're the solution here. You know, they're throwing a lot of money around, you know, when when they should maybe be throwing a little more awareness around, I think.
10:15>> Yeah. Now, what I mean, you talked about it a little bit ago that there's tools kids are they're smart with tech. They can just get around it and stuff, but you know, that's that's one of the scariest things about becoming a parent for me is like it just gets worse every year. all the different resources and tools and places someone can get hurt.
10:35And you do, like you said, >> you got to have some luck as a parent, too. You can't put a helmet on your kid and have them go through life that way or be a helicopter. They have to be able to fend for themselves on >> and they need to learn those skills. I mean, you know, I always look at it this way. You know, caveman babies survived and saber-tooth tigers roam the earth.
10:52You know, civilization was initiated to to continue [snorts] and you know, you know, there's a god and most days things go well. But, you know, bad stuff can happen. Kids can get prayed upon on games like Roblox. 84 year old women can disappear, you know, for for no fault of their own. I mean, bad stuff happens out there. And the more we talk about it, but don't live, you know, behind lock gates all the time. You have to go live your life. But you have to be aware >> of these potential things. And you're right, it it gets more challenging every year. I mean, we had I my oldest son was who's 34 now, you know, when he was in
11:30high school. There's World of Warcraft >> and you had to be on a computer to do it. You phones weren't that sophisticated and tablets weren't really around then. So, you had to sit on the computer and do it in a common area of the house and it was bedtime. It was bedtime. Well, I can't I'm letting the fellows down. Well, who are the fellas?
11:45Well, they're my guys playing. Get to bed. End of story, >> right?
11:49>> Play another day. Yeah, >> there'll be more fellas to play with.
11:53>> But, you know, now there God, it's just overwhelming. And and I and I think it's important for parents not to try not to be overwhelmed by the technology. You limit your children's exposure. You limit the methods that can be used for adults to approach your child. Turn off the chat function.
12:15>> Look over their shoulder. Understand the games. You know, if it's a bathroom game, the kid's not playing it. if the g, you know, where there are games like that that have been on Roblox historically, the bathroom game, and the bathroom, >> you walk, your character walks into a bathroom and sees different things and you go to different levels and it's it's sexually >> Yeah.
12:34>> aggressive >> and it's not appropriate for kids. But there was a point where kids had access to that. Now, Roblox has indicated that's tried to shut that down, but you know, in a in a in a platform like that or in Discord or in a lot of different places. You know, there there are dark corners of those platforms where kids can get into trouble.
12:58>> Well, that's the thing and that's what's really disappointing that's coming through in what you're saying. And it's not just the transparency or the lack of transparency access, but or or or point that you made. It's like, you know, even when I tried to play devil's advocate two minutes ago, >> you you you can cite the sources of the [ __ ] they do. It sounds like they don't really want to solve the problem.
13:16>> I don't think Roblox wants predators harming children on their platform. I don't think so. I mean, these people have kids, too, right?
13:21>> But how much do they want?
13:22>> But I think in general, you know, anything that limits engagement is bad for business. And so, I don't believe they've found the right balance. Now, again, these things that they have done have been helpful. And I'm sure they prevented some engagement between adults and children, but you know, I mean, maybe I'm asking too much of the company. I don't think I am. And and this has been going on for 15 years. And the other question is, had we not been bargaining about this for the last 6, eight months, had these lawsuits not been filed, had these attorneys general not gotten involved, um, would this have happened? I mean,
14:02would they have made the the the um advancements in security that they have made? I would argue no.
14:10And again, you're letting you're letting a company legislate its own safety.
14:14>> Yeah. This is also a place where like my brain now I want to look at everything.
14:21>> How do you think I feel [laughter] up to my eyeballs? I can only imagine for seven, eight months now.
14:26>> I can only imagine. But like >> I mean just to try to understand it, you know, and and to you know, thankfully, you know, we've got people who dig into this, who make it their business to be, you know, on the inside of it and um you know, both in law enforcement and and um in uh lawmaking and but you know, there there I had a conversation with uh the Florida attorney general, sharp guy.
14:51>> Who's that?
14:51>> And it's James Omire.
14:53>> Okay.
14:54And um he's not in the first episode, but he'll be in the second episode. And I did a podcast episode with him, too.
15:02People can check it out. Um >> yeah, let's make sure we have a podcast down below.
15:06>> It's Have a Seat with Chris Hansen and Predators I've caught. And we have uh video versions on the Have a Seat with Chris Hansen YouTube channel. But he was very careful in the course of my interview, but indicated that there may be some information that was requested via criminal subpoena, right? You subpoena these things in criminal cases that may have not been properly turned over. Now, he was very careful, so I don't want to overstep into there, but it sounded to me, as somebody who's covered these cases for a very long time, that there could potentially be liability there based upon the Florida Attorney General's
15:52investigation.
15:53Um, so we'll see how that plays out.
15:59That's something to think about, huh?
16:00>> Well, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I'm glad there's some out there who are really trying to do something about it. And it's it's and it's not just it's it's Florida, it's Louisiana, uh it's uh Kentucky, Tennessee, I believe South Carolina, I I think it's up to about eight different states now.
16:18It does concern me though, like I remember three years ago Sean Ryan when he was on my show in episode 148, he was he was talking all about this and it's like you can't even believe this is real. But you have legislators in some other states who are trying to argue to use like terminology like maps, like minor attractive.
16:39>> Yeah, I that's that's just that shouldn't even be in the >> right >> in the in the sphere of a discussion.
16:44There there's no legitimacy to predators, pedophiles, criminals being classified as somebody who's got, you know, some sort of legitimate attraction to a minor. We create laws to protect minors from being sexually exploited. And some of the ages may seem arbitrary to predators, but the reality is we have to draw a line.
17:17And society does the best it can to to protect children from being tricked into situations where they're sexually exploited. And that's why we have an age of consent. And if a child is below that age of consent, even if they say yes, they can't give permission to be sexually exploited.
17:39>> All right? And that's why we have these laws. So here's here's a weird one that I think about a lot now because it's actually extremely realistic. So in a lot of marriages in America, there's a common age difference of two or three years. Yeah. Like there's a very common trend of not always but you know it's like common that the husband will be you know 35 and the wife will be 33 or 32. Now imagine they're high school sweethearts right?
18:10The husband meets the wife when he's a junior and she's a freshman and they begin dating and they're teenagers and they're interacting as teenagers do.
18:22Then one day he's a senior and he turns 18 and she's 16.
18:28What What's the Well, typically there's a sunset clause in these. So in other words, you know, the age of consent is 16. If you're talking about somebody who's within two years of that. If you're talking about somebody who's >> 5 years older, then then it's a different set of circumstances. So that >> the laws try to address that situation.
18:50You know, you bring up an interesting point. You know, there was a documentary done recently uh on the looking at the whole to catch a predator takedown experience and you know there it's one director's point of view, right? And there's some good things, some productive things out of it and I cooperated with it. There's some things that were left out that I thought were important. But one of the critical aspects, the aspects that were critical of my investigations was that in one case there was an 18-year-old who was caught trying to hook up with a 15-year-old and he was criminally prosecuted, but the case was sent to
19:26diversion >> and the the the question they interviewed the kid's mother who got busted and she was critical of us and our investigation and claimed that he couldn't go to his high school graduation because of the embarrassment of getting caught. Well, there's a big age difference between 18 and 15, right?
19:4518 and 15, first of all, is not 30 and 33.
19:50>> That's right.
19:51>> Right. When you were 18, did you date any 15 year olds?
19:54>> Of course not.
19:55>> That wouldn't be right. You know, >> and it was illegal. It was against the law.
20:04>> [clears throat and cough] >> So, do I feel sorry that this 18-year-old couldn't go to his graduation?
20:09I feel sorry for a 13, 14, or 15 year old kid who could have been sexually exploited by the 18-year-old who then wasn't in mentally healthy shape to go to their high school graduation. So, I I don't have a lot of sympathy in these cases. I mean, to me, it's pretty common sense.
20:27>> Yes.
20:28>> Right.
20:29>> Now, what about this other one? This is another one I think about a lot. Are you familiar with the Josh Giddy situation?
20:36>> Yes. So >> that's different, >> right?
20:39>> And I Here's why it's different.
20:41>> Here's a young man was 21 when he was >> he was 19.
20:44>> He was 19. Okay. So he's 19 and he's in a club.
20:48>> Mhm.
20:48>> Right. And he's approached by a girl >> in the club.
20:52>> In the club who, if I have the story straight, says that she's the same age.
20:57>> I think she said she was 21.
20:59>> 21.
21:00>> Yeah. I I think so. Check me on that in the comments. Right. Yes.
21:03>> So what is his due diligence to suggest that a woman who is had to show ID to get into the club >> Mhm.
21:14>> was lying to him >> intent you're talking about?
21:18>> Yeah. I don't think he was [clears throat] setting out to be a predator.
21:24>> Agreed. I think he was a 19-year-old guy who met a very attractive young woman and just assumed that she was of the appropriate age >> because of where this happened. Now, >> and she looked it too, Chris. Like, >> I saw the pictures. I saw the pictures.
21:38Now, I I I'm not one to defend predatory activity, but I don't think in this case, and you look at the totality of the case. Young guy playing in the NBA.
21:49You shouldn't get a break for that because he's a athlete celebrity, >> right? But he should also have some consideration for being targeted because of that.
21:58>> And this wasn't a situation where he was and again my understanding is that it wasn't a situation where he was pllying somebody with drinks to take advantage of them.
22:08>> If anybody was taking advantage Yeah. There was there's a different >> power dynamic. To me it's about the power dynamic who had power in that situation.
22:18>> Yes.
22:18>> And I think it was equal in that situation. And so I think he got a stern talking to and there were a number of conversations and [clears throat] I think he'll be checking ID going forward.
22:29>> I think so as well. But that was like point being that was the rare one where I agree with you. You >> I think so. And trust me, you're not going to get any sympathy out of me.
22:38>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Right.
22:39>> That's why I asked. So I have to you know you but you bear these things in mind and you have to put yourself in that situation as a young fellow and you you know you put as a the father of you know two boys you you put yourself in that situation and you preach to them growing up that you know no means no and you show respect for women and you know if it's a gray area you know it was meant to be it'll meant to be a different day but don't ever you know assume things And uh and it's important to tell young men that and boys that. But to me that situation again without having reported on or talked to anybody intimately
23:19involved in it was exactly that.
23:21>> Yeah.
23:22>> There are one thing I've learned though in this studio unfortunately is that there are you know we obviously have our own problems here in America to be very clear but you know there's there are cultures around the world that openly normalize this. And I and I'll I'll explain. Let me give an exact example. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but I have had Navy Seals sitting in that chair, Army Rangers sitting in that chair, Delta Force guys sitting in that chair, all who served years in Afghanistan, and they all tell the same story.
23:53>> Oh, yeah. And and you'll hear the same stories from people at Quantico where they host uh Afghans to study military techniques.
24:05um you know these are people who are supposed to be um fighting on our team but there's a different culture in some respects and and you know it's it's I mean watch the movie Kiterunner >> what do you do about that I mean >> well I think you you certainly you can't condone it um do you go to war over it to try to change another culture I I don't know that that's the answer I think you you don't condone it you don't uh look the other way but you don't um you know again you hope that their society changes I guess you use diplomacy and carrot and stick and you know if it's if it's something that outrageous you say look you're only
24:45getting American money if you change the policy right >> or you encourage people to change their behavior and you know economic inducements work and so you you try to work that way >> but it's you know we have to worry about our world first and then change culture overseas or you change the culture overseas that affects our world. And and I think these are, you know, you do these in terms of what's most critical, what's most pressing, and what's most dangerous to us at this moment.
25:16>> Yeah. Now, there's moments, I say this all the time, but there's moments [snorts] in here in different podcasts that just stick with you, right, where you're talking to someone and some point comes up and the way they say something to me and the gravity of the point is just like, whoa. And that's wired into me. And I had one of those with uh Andy Bamonte last year who used to be in CIA, definitely still is. But I was asking him about some of the worst [ __ ] he ever saw.
25:46>> Mhm.
25:46>> Out in the field. And he talked about, you know, meeting with some [ __ ] general or something in the middle of Africa who had all these eight-year-old, nineyear-old, 10-year-old child soldiers around him who they were plying up on drugs who they were sexually abusing, all these awful things. And then the soldiers who were watching over them had been the same child soldiers that had that happen to them. And it was just this giant cycle. Yeah.
26:12>> And I said to him, I said, "Andy, how do you fix something like that?" And there was a long pause. And he sat back and he was just like, "This is going to sound so bad." I'm like, "Go ahead, say it." He goes, "You just got to kill them all. You just got to get a reset."
26:30>> Well, sadly, sadly, he's probably right.
26:33It's so ingrained into the civilization that that's the way it works. That's the way it worked for them. It's the way it worked for their their brothers and their parents. And you know, I I've been to Sierra Leone and I've been to that part of the world and and you know, we didn't see um you know, wars or battles or what Andy described, but we saw the remnants of it. We did a story on al-Qaeda using uh blood diamonds to fund terrorism. And we talked to the guys who were doing the investigation and we went back to the places where it all happened and and um you know, got a realistic dose of it.
27:08But what he described was exactly, you know, you could see some of this in the movie Blood Diamond. I mean, it's very realistic and that's the the clash of of u of culture that we have and uh it's very tribal there and in other parts of the world. Afghanistan is the same way.
27:29I mean, it's it's waring tribes and factions and this goes back generations before America was America. So, how do you change that? And it's very difficult to change. And there's a certain truth to what he says. We don't do that because we are a civilized society. We try to handle it the way we should handle it. But, you know, it's ingrained. There's no question.
27:50>> Now that we see though that the problem that like normal folk out here, we're seeing that the problem is wider than we're ever even imagined though. Here at home, it's we're talking about other places, but here at home, we got problems like this. It's like, >> at least we're arresting people. So, at least we're being proactive and and doing these kinds of investigations. At least we're creating content like this podcast where we're discussing it and and we're, you know, we're not just treating it as a, you know, dirty little secret, right? You know, we're exposing it. We're discussing it. And again, my
28:24mantra, we're creating awareness in a discussion that perhaps didn't exist before. So, you know, if somebody listens to this or watches the Dangerous Games documentary on on Roblox or watches any of the Takedown investigations, you know, they they they get something out of it. Yeah, I get, look, these predator investigations, it's a collision.
28:43>> It's a collision where somebody gets caught committing a felony in real time.
28:49They get interrogated by me andor law enforcement. They get cuffed, arrested, sometimes tased or maed, and off they go. And there are darkly humorous elements of it that I lean into because I've learned over 20ome years that it gets people's attention. And again, if it gets people's attention, then we're learning something from it.
29:14>> Right?
29:15>> Now, I agree with you. There there's work that gets done like what you do, like what law enforcement does where justice is served. And I don't want to understate that because it does happen and we see people whether it be the doctors or the lawyers or the truckers or whoever it is doing these things face justice and we should continue to see that. But you strike me as as an optimist as well on on the >> you have to be you can't you couldn't you couldn't do this kind of reporting and not be an optimist. You couldn't do this kind of reporting without being able to escape it and ski down a mountain or to
29:46cook a meal and forget about it for a minute or watch something silly on television or you know hang out with your kids or your wife or you know your family >> and and you have to have that skill. You must have it because you know you can't spend your life even as a young fellow in the studio. You got to go out and do something. That's right. You got to cleanse your mind and you got to refresh yourself and and develop a a recharge of energy to go out and do it a different day. I mean, we travel a lot to go do these stories. I have for many years.
30:16I've got 4 million miles on American Airlines and two and two million on Delta. I mean, I I've seen the road.
30:21I've been around the world.
30:23>> And it can it can it can it can >> it can wear you down if you're not fit >> both mentally and physically. But you got to be up to the challenge. You know, some of this stuff people say, "How do you travel and do all that stuff?"
30:35Getting airplane is like shaving to me.
30:37It's just something you do before you go to work and [snorts] that's it. And you can't get bogged down. You know, again, there were way worse places to be stranded than, you know, Delray Beach, Florida.
30:48>> But we were there for that charity, Child Rescue Coalition. And, you know, it was down there a couple days. Now, there was stuff I needed to be doing back here. And I had to cram a lot of stuff and including this fine podcast with you into into fewer days than I had to to do a lot of stuff. But you can't you got to get over it. You you can't get so bogged down in the process that you don't see the bigger picture and the importance of what it is that you do.
31:14And also you got to realize that sometimes you have to change the way you do it. Just because we did it this way for years and years, that doesn't mean it we're going to do it this way forever. We have to adapt. Look at what you know from from the first investigation, Beth Page, Long Island, we do our predator investigations a whole different way. Yes.
31:34>> But guess what? Everybody's getting prosecuted.
31:3899% successfully prosecuted. Now, sometimes that may result in a plea agreement and probation and sometimes it may mean going to prison for life.
31:48>> Mhm.
31:48>> Depending on the factors involved, but it's happening and but we've had to adapt to the changing, you know, technology platforms, uh, to the the changes in the law to our ability to set up cameras in different places. I mean, all all kinds of factors involved, but you can't just say, "Okay, well, we've already we've done it this way since 2004. This is the way we're all going to do it. That's not how life works.
32:14>> You've adapted mediums, styles, [clears throat] things you're going after. It's great.
32:20>> All kinds of things."
32:21>> And you're right. I I I too am [clears throat] an optimist, and I'm glad you are. I I suspected that, and I I think you make an amazing point, and that's important. The reason I'm bringing it up at this moment though is because I understand people out there listening right now who are feeling really cynical and let down. Not because Chris Hansen has failed. Chris Hansen's done his job, but like we see powerful people. You talk about people going to jail. None of those people.
32:48>> You wonder why people believe in all these elitist conspiracy theories. It's because look at what has come out in the Epstein files.
32:55>> That's right.
32:56>> Look at this. You know, and still Les Wexner claims that he didn't know that Epstein was doing anything wrong. Didn't didn't become aware of any crimes until he decided to cut him loose.
33:08You know, is that possible?
33:12>> You you are not, as you said, you're not technically like a trained psychiatrist and you're not a trained body language expert, but I would argue there's probably not a lot of people in the world from a body language and psychiatry expert of like predators like you who has the experience on the ground. I can read their faces when I see them. I know. I know exactly what they're going to say.
33:30>> Right. So, when you see Les Wexner's 5hour deposition and you're watching him huddle in, move his arm, blink rate at [ __ ] >> about what his attorney says.
33:38>> Yeah.
33:39>> I'm going to have him kill you.
33:40>> Yeah.
33:41>> What are your thoughts? Well, I I I mean, I don't have any smoking gun, but why does a man a billionaire, a titan of industry, sign over a power of attorney to Jeffrey Epstein? Now, that was his mo. If I'm going to handle your finances, I need power of attorney.
34:02I need to be able to react quickly to markets. I need to move money around. I need to do this stuff. He would say that to other clients. But I mean, if you if you believe the accounts, and I have no reason to disbelieve this particular one, I mean I mean Wexter essentially signed over that upper east side New York home.
34:21>> That's right.
34:21>> The biggest single residential piece of property on the island of Manhattan.
34:26>> That's right. $10.
34:28>> Why do you do that?
34:29>> Why?
34:30>> Well, cuz the guy's got something over your head. Or you want him quiet or happy or he's making you so much money you don't care. Let's take let's take the least objectionable reason. He's making you so much money you don't care.
34:42He's giving you tax advice. He's got shelters.
34:46All right. But you know what happens when he's a convicted sex offender in 2008?
34:52Is that when he cut off contact or did it happen after that?
34:55>> That's what he alleges he cut off.
34:58>> That's what he alleges.
35:00But even 20 20ome years before that, like you said, power of attorney, handing over the biggest >> biggest townhouse in New York City.
35:08>> And you and what you don't know that he's got, you know, got girls and he's abusing his his relationship with you to run around with these models and recruit people.
35:23And there's a lot of suicides involved here. Yes. that French modeling agent, he was into this up to his eyeballs.
35:30Epstein >> unal alived himself.
35:32>> Yeah.
35:32>> Yeah. I don't think I believe that. But >> yeah, I don't know. I I mean, I tend to be a little less conspiratorial. I mean, I understand why people are asking questions and I did see some documents today, you know, where uh prosecutors refer to it as the Epstein murder, not the Epstein suicide. So, was that a [clears throat and cough] >> a Freudian slip or is it more? I but you know when you when you drip drip drip these these uh you know revelations and documents it's every day there's going to be something different.
36:03>> Yeah. And it also like I would imagine I think you were even citing some examples. Correct me [clears throat] if I'm wrong, but like you've seen >> the things that happen like in the modeling industry in particularly and how these young women and actually girls like 15 16 quite literally get traffic to men through the people that run these places which is not to say automatically therefore less less Wexner is guilty because he has Victoria's Secret but it's certainly quite a coincidence now.
36:29>> Yeah. But I mean, if if you're going to be a guy who goes after to try to exploit those people, where are you going to go? You're going to go where there's a healthy supply of them.
36:40>> Yeah.
36:41>> And stareyed girls who want to be the next Victoria's Secret Supermodel and have a career after that are very vulnerable.
36:49>> Absolutely.
36:50It's like when you pray that that's that's some of the lowest stuff when you pray on someone's ultimate fears or dreams, which are the opposites technically of each other.
36:59you are. And that's what all these guys do regardless of who they are, like when they're grooming them. That's exactly what they do to these kids. It's like, God, I was I was still totally stupid when I was 25. And I just imagine like what if I was in the wrong place, wrong time when I was like 14, you know?
37:18>> Well, everybody's got close calls. I mean, you know, I [clears throat] grew up >> pretty f I was on television at 20 years old, so, you know, I was a reporter.
37:28Mhm.
37:28>> I mean, we still had a lot of fun. You run around and, you know, do what young men do, but, [clears throat] you know, I had a a pretty solid sense of responsibility pretty early on, but you're right. I mean, 13, 14 years old, you think you're a grown man, but you're not. And you're vulnerable. And I think, you know, a woman from Eastern Europe who's very attractive and has a shot is told by a French modeling agent that you're the next big thing, but this is kind of how it works. You need to meet my friend Jeffrey. I mean, >> it's crazy.
38:00>> And these guys are doing this all day long.
38:03>> It's crazy. Do things like >> remember South Park made the episode Nambla?
38:09>> Yeah.
38:11>> North American Manboy Love Association or something like that? Things like that really exist?
38:16>> Oh, Namba. Absolutely. It exists.
38:19>> Absolutely. It has been around a long time. And the FBI had pretty much extinguished Nambla.
38:27big investigations until the advent of the internet and suddenly they could communicate without being detected. But all that's a real thing. That's not conspiracy pizza stuff.
38:41Wow.
38:44That's what and and that's again this is where I try to stay an optimist on society but it gets hard. I mean, they used to have cruises, you know, they they get a yacht >> and they they have this stuff. They they they >> FBI did stings on this stuff, >> you know, before everything went digital and they'd put out pamphlets and, [clears throat and cough] you know, uh back page ads on newspapers and and they'd put these things together and they'd sting these guys, but they they put them out of business almost and then suddenly they're back at it with the internet.
39:21What are the most important things? Like we were talking about the roadblock example which is online but you know if you had one, two or three just main pieces of advice for parents to be on the lookout for their kids safety when it comes to predators, what would those be?
39:38>> I would say that you need to be aware of what they're doing online.
39:44>> Mhm.
39:44>> You need to look over their shoulder.
39:46They should not have a device in their bedroom at night. And you have to start at the very moment they have access to the internet, whatever age that is, by telling them there are grown-ups on the internet who like to trick kids. Kids do not like to be tricked.
40:07>> And that'll get their attention. And then you have to ratchet this up incrementally as they get older and more curious.
40:15>> Yeah. and they want to show their independence and you got to say, "Look, you know, I heard this today. I heard that today." I remember very early on in the predator investigations, we had a a [clears throat] dozen middle schoolers on risers and um I said, "Show of hands, how many of you been approached by an adult and made you feel uncomfortable?"
40:39Nine out of 12. How many of you told your kids, "To their little parents?"
40:43>> Yeah, they're parents.
40:45And um I said, "Why?" "Well, we're afraid they're going to take the computer away, the internet away." And that was the most telling thing I've ever heard.
40:54I you know, I try to be careful. I always say this, but a common phrase people will throw around is if I were blank, then I would blank about something very serious. And I don't know that you fully know that about most things until you actually experience those things. But one thing I think about being a future parent that I feel very strongly about is something you kind of cited earlier, which is a more in an even more stereotypical example, which is like if my kid were at a party when they're 16 or 17, they were a little drunk and something was wrong, I'll come get you >> and I'm not going to you're not punished
41:32and there's that trust.
41:33>> I've had that speech when my kids were in that age group, >> right? I think you make an amazing point that there needs to be parents should feel comfortable without, you know, pushing that boundary too far, if you know what I mean, like having repeat offenses and [ __ ] like that. But I think parents should be comfortable to be able to have that conversation about online stuff too without >> Right. It's Look, stuff's going to happen. Yeah.
41:57>> Right. This is the nature of the internet.
42:02>> Stuff will if you're on the internet long enough, something will happen.
42:05That's right.
42:06>> But the reason I'm going to allow you to stay on the internet is that if something does happen, you come to me and tell me about it. I'm not going to beat you up. We'll get a solution together.
42:18>> Um, you know, I I took my dad's advice many years ago. You know, your job is not to be your kid's friend. It's to be their father.
42:26>> And so, you're going to make decisions that are unpopular. They're going to stomp off to their room. They're going to call you names. They're going to be an argument.
42:34bad language is going to be used, but you got to stay calm. The whole the trick to being a parent is to get your kids to do what you know is right for them, what you want them to do, and make them think it's their idea.
42:47That's the That's the That's [snorts] the deal. That's all it is.
42:52>> Yeah.
42:52>> That's all it is. And if you can do that, you win.
42:56>> It's good advice.
42:57>> Yeah.
42:58What were your favorite stories you worked on before you became Chris Hansen to catch a predator? You know, there's so many and back in those days we were allowed to [clears throat] travel internationally and do things, but probably the most impactful story I think was when we teamed with an NGO and went to Cambodia uh with the International Justice Mission, JM, [snorts] and they were investigating Americans going over to Cambodia and other places to commit uh sex tourism with underage kids.
43:34and we infiltrated a brothel in Sve about 11 kilometers outside of uh Pampen and our producer and our our hidden camera guys posed a sex tourist. We went in there and set up a party and we had local authorities as part of it and um we put this together and and and we rescued about 37 girls.
43:58>> Wow. And in the course of of the investigation, we caught an American doctor over there who I later confronted in Guam in a parking structure where he was he with travel as an anesthesiologist, right? So, you know, we pick him off and we caught him like we had him on camera talking about he thought he was on a tourism show and he was talking about how he likes to go over there. And then we had him on hidden camera talking about the young girls and and then I lowered the boom on him in a parking garage in Guam and just tore him from year to year.
44:31>> Did he get prosecuted?
44:32>> He did not, shockingly.
44:34But in that story, two important things happened. Well, a lot of important things happened, but two detectives in Vancouver, Canada, were watching the story when it aired the first time on Dayline, and they recognized the background in the brothel, and they said, "You know what?"
44:51And they call each other, watching it separately, and they said, "This looks like the background on the videotape we took from the guy we arrested for beating up a sex worker.
45:02Follow this." Now, they look at it. They go over to that brothel. They match it.
45:09And it turns out the guy they arrested in Vancouver, British Columbia, for beating up a sex worker had or also been to that same brothel in SVAC.
45:20And they arrested him and he took a seven-year plea for for sex tourism.
45:26And then we went back four years later [clears throat] to check on the girls who were rescued.
45:33And eight or 10 of them were in a bridge school and I mean it looked like a million bucks in the school dresses.
45:40They're going to school every day and I'm sure there was long-term damage and I you know interviewed them and of course there was a translator involved.
45:48My Camir is not you know fluent. And so we finished up the interview and they they said well when are you leaving going back to America? I said well [clears throat] tomorrow or day after tomorrow. And they said can we go to the airport with you to say goodbye? I said absolutely it's fine with the people here at the British school. It's fine by me. So now they, you know, do their minds really understand who I am or what I did or all they know there is they're in a better place and I had this tall American had something to do with it, right? I'm not looking to take credit for it, but if you know they want to go
46:18to the airport, if the school folks say it's okay, it's okay with me. And the guy pulls me aside. He said, "Well, [clears throat] it has more to do with the fact that the only Dairy Queen in the entire country of Cambodia is at the airport." I said, "No ego problems there. Send them NBC can pay for, you know, eight banana splits on." So, we go to and then we're filming this, right? Because it's part of the deal. We going back and how are these girls doing? We're eating the banana splits and we're communicating as best as we can and we go time to say goodbye and we're doing the whole, you know, Asian goodbye thing and honoring
46:53each other and and and the uh the Ponipen airport has a two-story glass wall when you go in to check in and then go through security. And so they follow me and and they've got their hand I say goodbye. Goodbye. Said goodbye 100 times, right? So now they've got their hands against the glass, you know, weeping. And I go back and put my hands against the glass. So, I'm weeping, the cameraman who's been with me in the most horrible places in the world is weeping.
47:18The producer is weeping and everybody's weeping and we leave and we we filmed all that and we put it in the in the story. It was quite powerful. But, you know, those are things things like that, you know, and there's, you know, there's some fun stories along the way, too. I mean, there's some crazy things that happen. I mean, after the Oklahoma City bombing, we were on the trail of Tim McVey and Terry Nichols and John Doe number two. We thought that was a thing.
47:41and and there was a mysterious uh figure named Andreas Stmmeer who was associated with all these people and uh he was on the gun show circuit and he had gone back to Berlin and everybody wanted to find this guy and I got a tip and I I went in to talk to our executive producer at the time and I said look I can't be certain but I think I know where this guy is. He said well what do you what are the odds? I said, "I think it's 60% we find him." He goes, "You got four days." So producer and I get on a plane. We fly to Berlin. Now we got 4 days in Germany to find this guy. On day one, we find him at 9:15 in the morning.
48:23Gives us a 30-minute interview. We get video of him on the subway in Berlin, and we're done. So now we got three days to go screw around [laughter] and carry on and drink beer in in Berlin. And we had a ball. But um you know, it just it's an amazing it's an amazing business to be in. And it's it's been an amazing time to experience it all. you know, I I I've gotten to go to places I never dreamed of going and expose things I never knew existed and to, you know, tell that story and to work with amazing people at NBC and um in between and now, you know, and to have you situation where we have True Blue where we own the content, we
49:01own the distribution of the content, we have a you know, a bit of a relationship with Fox News and the podcasts are on the Fox platform and so it's life is great. you know, we I've got it's it's very busy, but it's very fulfilling and uh you know, I drive a great deal of satisfaction and and to have some control over the editorial part of it, too. And and the business part of it, you know, and I'm not, you know, I'm not the CFO. I'm not the CEO. I'm partner, part owner. I'm the brand.
49:31>> I'm the brand.
49:32>> But that's my job. I don't need to do the rest of the stuff. I've got people who do that for me. So, I get to be the brand and and go out and do the stuff.
49:40>> So, it's it's good. It's very fulfilling. when you were doing cases like that though where you're tracking like ongoing investigations into crime which you obviously you still do today but I'm saying you know now you work directly with law enforcement when you do this stuff but back then >> how did you handle a situation where you as a journalist were actually getting somewhere in the investigation and getting to like a key component of it and then having to make the choice as to whether or not to loop in law enforcement on it or have you go hit it first? Well, I I think you make those decisions on a case-by case basis, but
50:14you you have to put justice and a criminal prosecution ahead of, you know, there are ways to do it simultaneously. I mean, there's always a way to figure it out so that you get what you need and law enforcement gets what it needs. I I've never been in a situation where I couldn't figure it out. Now, I've been in a situation where unknowingly I've been ahead of law enforcement.
50:36>> What was that?
50:37It's happened many times, but you you either slow down and let them catch up or you help them with what you found, >> you know, so a bad guy goes to jail. But you there, you know, this is the stuff they don't teach in journalism school.
50:50This is the stuff you have to figure out, you know, in the process of it. Um, you know, I remember being a reporter in Detroit [clears throat and cough] and the police chief was on trial for corruption. And I remember an investigator telling me that somebody had come over to do some work on his kitchen and and a tinfoil brick tinfoil covered brick of money fell out of the ceiling. And uh chief said, "Oh, he found my poker money."
51:16Well, it was money that was stolen from the department. And so I'm in the elevator with the the assistant US attorney who's prosecuting the case before the trial and I tell the story and he kind of looks weird and he just kind of shows off after the trial they convict him and he said I got to tell you something. He goes I did not know about that story until you told me in the elevator. I said [laughter] I said you're you're [ __ ] kidding me. He says well no we figured it out. I would have found out but >> but so here I am as a reporter. Yeah.
51:42>> Knowing about the the uh cash of cash in the kitchen of the former police chief of the city of Detroit and you know the the guy who's prosecuting the case wasn't aware of it. So you know you figure stuff out along the way.
51:55>> Some poor desk jockey got chewed the [ __ ] out right after [laughter] that for sure. Were you with NBC working out of New York when 9/11 happened?
52:04>> Yes, I was with NBC. I I left Detroit to go to NBC in 1993.
52:10So, but you were here in New York.
52:12>> Well, I wasn't in New York. I was actually in Toronto >> on an unrelated story and um [clears throat] I was watching it was actually was a story on a plane that made a dead stick landing on the island of Terara. This A320 or A321 Airbus was flying from Toronto to Portugal to Lisbon and there was a mechanical issue and it was bleeding fuel and the pilots didn't figure it out and they just thought they had an imbalance. So they opened the the valve to put fuel in the other tank and it all bled out and they ran out of fuel at 30,000 ft.
52:47>> And so this pilot was able to circle the plane and they have a device that pops out that generates power. He's able to circle the plane and navigate and without power for 30 minutes make a dead stick landing at an air force base, a joint use air force base on the island of Trera >> which is in the Azors. So, we're in the middle of doing that story, which is the kind of story we do occasionally for dine and we done [clears throat] the interviews and and some of the guys went out for a few pops at night and I stayed in for whatever reason and was up early, went for a run and all dressed up, ready
53:18to go and and I'm watching the television monitor in the hotel room and there's smoke coming out of one of the towers of the World Trade Center. I called the office. I said, "Dave, what's going on?" He said, "We think a pilot hit a heart attack and crashed [clears throat] into the building and standby, but we think you're just going to go on to Colorado to work on the next story." I said, "All right, well, let me know."
53:39>> Second target gets hit and I call back and said, "I'm on my way." So, I roused everybody up. We get to the airport and they're cancelling [clears throat] flights. I said, "Just get a rental car to the producer. Just go get a Herz car."
53:51>> And we're in Toronto. So, I said, "Fine." I said, "We're headed south.
53:55Let me know what's going on." So, we're monitoring this the whole way. I'm calling sources and try to get information. And we get to the the bridge to go into Buffalo. And I said, "Look, we can either go to Boston or we can go to New York." He said, "We got a ton of people in New York. Boston's where two of the planes came from. You know, we need information from there.
54:11So, go there." So, we went there because that's where Muhammad Ata and his crew got on the the plane from Portland, Maine. They changed planes into Boston.
54:19in Boston at the time had a notoriously >> shoddy security setup >> and they exploited it in every possible way. So we reported from Boston for two days and jumped on a train reported from New York and Washington for the for the rest of it >> but uh very involved in it. I mean it was >> go to ground zero at the time.
54:37>> I did not at the time because it was you there were people down there and they didn't need any more people down there.
54:42I mean we were doing stories on the big picture stuff. There's no reason for me to be there. We had, you know, other reporters were there dayto-day. You know, you could go up to the roof at 30 Rock and do your standup and see it right in the background still smoking and uh but we would, you know, do, you know, the money trail and how all this other stuff worked and, [clears throat] you know, backgrounds and all the hijackers and how they solved the case.
55:04you know, we're doing long form versions for Dline, for the network really, because it was in situations like that, you know, Dline served as the the long form producers of the stories.
55:18>> It's it's amazing that all these years later with something that we all watched happen live as well. Yeah, it was it was this >> unforgett I was a very little kid, but I remember it vividly. It's this unforgettable image. Well, my kids were living in Connecticut at the time and my kids could go down to the end of the point and look >> 38 miles across and see the smoke come up and everybody knew somebody who was killed.
55:42>> That's right. But it's amazing that all these years later, we still don't have so many answers about it. And most importantly, like the families who lost people still, even through court, haven't been able to get answers on things.
55:53>> Well, I think you know, we did a lot of reporting on that. You know, what did the CIA know? What was shared with the FBI? Why didn't we know that these guys met in Koala Lumpur and then similar guys showed up in meetings in San Diego taking flight lessons and who was the 20th hijacker and you know those are all the stories we did in the aftermath of it and and we did some very good reporting there but um you know it's a different world now we have different cooperation different level of intelligence and I hope we don't back slide into where we were >> right [clears throat and cough] >> now you got this two-part documentary
56:27coming out on Roblox >> yes >> so it's coming out bi-weekly. Is that right?
56:31>> It's So, yes. So, the first uh episode, which is an hour and a very compelling hour if I do say so myself. The editors did a phenomenal job on it. I can't take credit for that, but I did all the interviews.
56:42>> That is out now on True Blue. Watch true.com for details. That's my streaming crime network.
56:49>> And then in [groaning] two weeks time, the second part right when this is coming, >> so probably right about the time this airs, part two will be out. And that's another hour. And then my prediction is that so much will come out of both of them that that'll probably generate a third hour.
57:10>> Great. Okay. Because that was going to be my next question. I would imagine this is an investigation you're going to continue.
57:14>> Yeah, we're we're staying on it. I mean, look, this is how I I feel about this investigation. This Roblox story is like To Catch a Predator 2026. M >> same DNA, different battlefield.
57:30>> That's a good way to put it.
57:31>> Yeah.
57:32>> Would you be open to it? Let's say these two come out and obviously it's like, wow, Chris Hansen really went in on Roblox and there's righteous public anger from it. Would you be open to now if Roblox reapproaches?
57:45>> Absolutely. I told And I told him in the emails back and forth. I said, uh, you know, they clearly thought that this was going to be an unfair project for them because of who we interviewed. They don't like Schlepp. They don't like the attorney general in Louisiana. And I said, "Well, the best way to deal with that is to come on and talk." And they said, "No, we're not going to do that."
58:05[clears throat] So I said, "If you change your mind, I will accommodate. If they call me tomorrow and said, "We want to be interviewed." I'll be on a plane to Santa Town.
58:15>> All right. Good. Give them a call. Yeah.
58:16Let's go. Yeah, they they know that.
58:19>> Well, now they definitely know it. We got on the record, but this has been awesome, man. Thank you so much, Julian.
58:25It was it was fantastic and and great experience and I appreciate the long form conversation and appreciate everything you do.
58:32>> Well, I'd love to do it again at some point work.
58:35>> All right.
58:36>> Thanks so much.
58:36>> Everybody else, make sure you go check out Chris's documentary on Road on Roadblocks. That's going to be linked down below. We'll also link your podcast and everything as well. Make sure we have everything in there. But that said, give us a thought. Get back to me.
58:49Peace. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
Read the essay version →