0:01All right, so I was on the phone with our mutual friend Tommy G and he's like, "Dwayne, you got to talk to Schmiegel guy. He's out of his [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> So I was like, all right, say less.
0:09Let's do it. Yeah. But I was looking at what you did.
0:13I was like, I've never talked to a guy like this before.
0:16>> It it's not really that special. Um we all carry these mobile phones.
0:22>> Mhm.
0:22>> And these mobile phones bleed all sorts of data about everything that we do. Everywhere we go. It's gotten a little tighter, but when I first started this um and if you think about it >> [clears throat] >> the the kids across the river here that are doing mobile advertising >> Mhm.
0:43>> and their skinny jeans and fancy socks really some of the best geospatial intelligence analysts around because they were taking these data sets, these very messy data sets and creating what are called audiences.
0:57>> Mhm.
0:58>> People who have uh who are signaling, I'm in the market for a new car.
1:02>> Right.
1:02>> Based upon their patterns of life. See him dwelling on a parking lot of a European uh car dealership boom, that's a signal.
1:10Package that up and they can sell it to Mercedes, Audi, Porsche say, here is somebody that is ready to go.
1:19Fitness lifestyle, fast food dining, children, household dynamics all of these things were um foundationally a became more um targetable >> Yeah.
1:33>> based upon where you were going in in the real world.
1:38When we're browsing we have cookies.
1:41Everybody knows what a cookie is.
1:42>> Can you explain to people who don't?
1:43>> Cookie's a little piece of software.
1:46Hopefully everybody's got them blocked.
1:48Um It's a little piece >> allow all the time. [laughter] Damn it.
1:53>> [snorts] >> Uh it's just a little soft piece of software that sort of sticks on your browsing session and allows uh whoever whatever site you're on to sort of track you from that site where you go on their site to where you go and other on other sites.
2:08>> Mhm.
2:09>> [clears throat] >> Um the mobile devices came with this thing called an ad ID, which was like a virtual cookie.
2:18It's this you know, ones and a series of ones and zeros, but that allowed apps, advertisers to track a single device based upon this advertising ID through time and space.
2:30>> Mhm.
2:30>> So I see you at the gym, then I see you at, you know, uh organic food uh grocery store.
2:37>> And this is because I hit like accept every time I download one of these apps or something like that.
2:41>> This is Yeah, this is about your locate your settings.
2:45You were allowing the app to to track your location.
2:50>> Yes.
2:51>> Um and and the interesting thing was you know, back in the day, and I'm talking about 10 years ago when people were just completely ignorant.
3:01>> Mhm.
3:02>> Um not by virtue not by any fault of their own, you'd download a calculator app or a flashlight app.
3:09Does flashlight app need to know where you are?
3:11>> No, but it would always ask.
3:13>> Or it didn't have It didn't have to ask.
3:16>> Oh, they didn't legally have to do it back then?
3:17>> No.
3:18>> Wow.
3:18>> Now Oh yeah, so you're you're you're in an environment where it's constantly asking you, "Can I track you?" Back in the day, which you know, we talk about the the rap the how how tech is just moving so fast.
3:32>> Yeah.
3:32>> I'm talking 10 years ago, back in the day.
3:35Not that long ago. These apps you'd download and install this app and all of the permissions would be set to accept.
3:43So you'd be bleeding your location data to some free sh- ass app like a flashlight app.
3:50And they would then the app, because it was free or had no value that anybody was spending any money, they would take those data sets, package them up, and sell them to this, you know, this deplorable broker data broker community, who would then create these audiences, these prepackaged groups of people based upon predilections of of intent.
4:15>> Right. So, when they I have so many questions here. I don't want to get like too, too lost in the weeds, but we'll just kind of jump around a little bit.
4:22When I would give my data to a flashlight app or something simple like that, even today, but back then as well, wherever it's applicable, am I just an IP address or a cell phone number or like serial number or am I Julian Dory?
4:39>> You're mostly you're mostly a benign identifier.
4:43>> Okay.
4:43>> Uh an ad ID, which is, you know, 17475 Echo Bravo Charlie 1257.
4:51>> That sounds like my name.
4:52>> Yeah.
4:53Um and that's what they would use to maintain the protection of your identity, but as a browsing session, your identity was that that identifier, that selector.
5:08Um if you have a direct relationship with the app Uber, Amazon, you're logging in, they know exactly who you are and what you're doing on the app.
5:19>> Yes.
5:20>> But if it's, you know, this sort of a an app that doesn't have there's no reason to have that one-to-one relationship, they have they are identifying you based upon this ad ID.
5:32>> Right. So, that might be like the one thing where Apple has a little bit of privacy, where they're just like, here's the number of the person rather than here's the full Apple ID and all that.
5:41>> Yeah. So, um in the advertising world or in the marketing world, you they're not getting your phone number, they're not pulling your IMEI or your MZ or any of the other meta selectors from your device that are attributable to an identity. You have to subscribe to a mobile phone and that those those those selectors march right back to your identity. The ad ID is this privacy-compliant way of cross-app tracking you. Right. Um and you brought up Apple, so it's about 3 years 4 years ago Tim Cook declared a fatwa on data brokers.
6:23>> Oh, yeah, is an actual fatwa? Remember that episode of Curb?
6:26>> Fatwa!
6:27>> Yeah, yeah.
6:27>> Fatwa!
6:29>> Or the other one there's another one where >> Oh, when they were fighting over the Palestinian chicken?
6:33>> That one, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:35Um uh and you know, the the the the media or there had been stories about these data brokers and this suggestion that somehow the government was getting involved and you know, it was targeting communities, disenfranchised communities.
6:52Um and so Tim Cook stepped in and Apple had a hypothesis that privacy would sell.
7:00And so they went all in on privacy.
7:03Similar it was almost like the counterfactual to the car companies back in the day when they told told Congress that safety doesn't sell.
7:11Um privacy is sort of this modern-day version of safety.
7:16>> I remember that ad that was fall 2021.
7:19We talked about it on the podcast back then. It was very effective.
7:22>> Yep.
7:23Um and so they've done but let's keep, you know, everything is they can declare themselves the private phone. But what they've effectively done is just consolidated the duopoly between Google and Apple. So all of the data that Apple isn't letting data brokers or an advertiser get directly. They're controlling that flow through something called app app tracking transparency.
7:52>> Okay, before we get there.
7:54Because like obviously the reason you come into this story and the reason Tommy G was interested in talking to you is because you came from the private side as someone who was in the marketing data business, which we'll talk about in a little bit the exact details of that.
8:07But you realized that all these very publicly available tools that's I don't know like ad int or whatever >> Yeah.
8:14>> effectively >> called it that, by the way, because it's just so gay.
8:18>> They all sound gay. [laughter] Like OSINT, HUMINT, you know, it's like whenever I get like the military guys in here they start dropping like the E4s and the I'm like guys, I don't know what that is. You got to tell me, you know.
8:29>> 18 echoes and yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:30>> Right.
8:31>> So that was that was something that got ascribed to it or somebody dropped that in there, but >> Yeah, I mean it's it's creative.
8:37>> Cuz it's really at the end of the day we weren't doing anything related to advertising. It was slices of the data that made advertising more efficient that we were collecting.
8:51>> Yeah.
8:51>> So anyway [clears throat] >> But you come into the story because you realize hey, this is a public utility meaning like me, a private citizen can go get this information and then I can take that data set and extrapolate that into things that would be relevant to a place like a spy agency trying to watch I don't know other international leaders. Or whatever. So we're going to get to how all that came down, but I'm I'm interested in you explaining the nuts and bolts things and one of the examples you were given a few minutes ago about, you know, the kids across the river who put all this data together and
9:21then package it up and sell it. It's a great visual because when we think of pretty much any industry, there's a product, right? And and of course there's a product with this. The product is us and our data and everything. But you look at things that are physical products that you can buy, you can put it in your house and you can see it, right? You look at things that are software products like a Google. You pull it up on your phone and it's got advertisements on there and all the things you're searching for.
9:45>> you know.
9:45>> It's a product, right?
9:47>> [snorts] >> Most people, like I couldn't name you, I know there's a billion of them. I couldn't name you an ad middleman data collection company even though some of these places are, I'm sure without a doubt, some of the biggest companies in America.
10:02>> Yeah. You wouldn't you wouldn't um And and there are there are thousands of them.
10:08Um and there [clears throat] are companies you've never heard of.
10:10>> Yeah.
10:11>> But they are the ones who know that uh you're Catholic, you go to the gym, uh you live here, you know, they have this foundational understanding not just of what you're doing online on a browser, but where you go. And and what they are the way they see that is they can attribute okay, you saw an ad online and what was the effect of that ad? Did we actually see you um you know, visit a store or something like that. Um so it it provided this new foundational understanding of human behavior, human geography.
10:54>> Right.
10:54>> And that's where the um the utility for the government seemed a natural fit.
11:04>> Yeah, cuz the government is using of course there's open source intelligence on things, but then they're using human intelligence on the ground where they get assets, obviously we know all about that. And then they're using data amalgamation that they create, but they weren't necessarily taking like the public utility of it and then using that as like a targeting mechanism. That's where you come in. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And that they've found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly
11:37every mood and health concern you can think of. Well, the company I'm talking about is mood.com and their incredible line of functional gummies. Right now, you can get 20% off your first order at mood.com using promo code Julian. Forget one-size-fits-all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in and as little as 15 minutes and take you directly to the mood you're looking for. Whether that's mind magic gummies for deep work and creativity, PMS support to ease cramps and balance mood swings, or their sexual euphoria gummies to help you feel ready for action and turn every touch
12:11into a full body experience. Listen, you can find gummies that just get you high pretty much anywhere these days, but Mood's functional gummies combine premium, federally legal THC with targeted botanicals to help you get in the perfect mood, usually in as little as 15 minutes. And everything ships discreetly right to your door. No dispensary lines, no awkward conversations, just better days and nights delivered to your doorstep. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100-day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners are going to get 20% off their first order using promo code Julian today. So,
12:43head on over to mood.com, link in description below, find the functional gummy that matches exactly the mood you're looking for, and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And once again, don't forget to use promo code Julian at checkout to save 20% on your first order. So, before we get there, though, >> just like who are you? Like like how did you even where did you come from? How did you get into this space? Like how did you end up now like at the forefront of this thing?
13:08>> Yep. So, um 20-plus years in software.
13:12>> Mhm.
13:13>> Uh in the sales, marketing, customer experience business. So, I understood software.
13:19>> Right.
13:20>> Um the market in software that I spent all those years in was in data analysis.
13:27Um and and had some really good learning experiences with companies that were just either too early in the market, but understanding, "Okay, how do we make this work?"
13:41Um you know, if I had the language that we have now to describe AI and large language models and machine learning, if I had that in 2006, when the value proposition for a for a national security app capability, um if I had the language that we have now to describe the power of of this thing to take a bunch of text-based data and start learning about it, um I might not be sitting here right now.
14:14>> [laughter] >> Um >> And DARPA had it.
14:18>> And well, it was And DARPA couldn't even come up with the right language.
14:22>> I I I believe you.
14:23>> Um >> Is it >> a lot of a lot of interesting stories there. Um >> [clears throat] >> um >> Put a bookmark on that, Joe.
14:30>> Yeah.
14:30>> We'll come back >> You know, so I have this this experience where um you know, you're trying to find weak signals in in data, right? Back in the day, everything was sort of a proprietary data set, a data set that the organization you were selling to had all this data. They needed to slap a front end on top of it to make it easier for their analyst >> to make sense.
14:56>> to to navigate it. Yeah.
14:58Uh Palantir, you've heard of Palantir?
15:00>> Never heard of them before. Wouldn't know.
15:03>> Um >> You don't [clears throat] work for them, do you?
15:04>> I don't.
15:05>> All right, that's good.
15:05>> I I don't think I could pass their employee test to determine how wicked smart you are.
15:11>> Mhm.
15:12>> Right.
15:12>> I like this guy. He can stay.
15:14>> Uh it's true that you >> This podcast is sponsored by Palantir, by the way.
15:17>> Is it really?
15:18>> Yeah.
15:19It's not, no.
15:20>> All right.
15:20>> [laughter] >> He was ABOUT TO LEAVE.
15:25>> UM SO, I I came from this ability to talk about data and analysis um in a way that wasn't so much locked in the ones and zeros, but you know, I could sit across the table from somebody who knew even less about it than I did and explain to them why this mattered and why this was going to impact what we're doing in these frontier locations where um you know, you're trying to get heads or tails as to what's going on and you can't fly uh you know, you can't you can't have uh airborne assets flying collecting all of this stuff.
16:14You need something else that's sort of coming in to to hydrate all of that um information.
16:19>> Because this is way too obvious of a >> I mean, it's just it's we can and that was you know, for 20 years we owned the airspace. We could fly and collect against anybody. We collected really good stuff because we were basically intercepting uh cell phone signals, right? With these devices that would emulate a cell phone tower. So, we could attack these phones.
16:42>> [clears throat] >> But what about the signals? What about the phones that we don't know about?
16:45What about the the populations that we're not able to understand their patterns of life, their movements, their centers of gravity? How can we get a better sense of uh what populations in Syria are doing or populations in Libya are doing or populations in Yemen? The the you know, the the high traveled uh destination spots for the for the first world.
17:08>> Right. Yeah, and I I was going to take a vacation in Yemen next summer.
17:11>> Yeah.
17:11>> We have a Yemeni coffee place down here.
17:13It's pretty good.
17:14>> it is. Yemen, have you ever been to a Yemen restaurant?
17:17>> That's what I said. I'm like, I didn't know this was a thing.
17:19>> Yeah, they feed you.
17:20>> I They're great. I like them a lot. But, you know, >> Yeah.
17:24>> I don't know if I'm visiting there.
17:25>> Yeah, probably not anytime soon.
17:27>> Right.
17:27>> Um >> [clears throat] >> So, I understand how to how to present the value proposition that breaks it down in a way where I'm not sitting here talking about, "Well, sir, uh you know, there are these uh demand-side platforms and supply-side platforms >> Mhm.
17:45>> and ad pecking, you know, by that time he's like >> Asleep.
17:50>> Yeah, whatever.
17:51>> Yeah.
17:52>> Um So, I talk about human geography and patterns of life and population movement. And um the ability to sort of do this at a really good deal for the taxpayer.
18:05Um to get sort of this this hyper-local sense of how populations behave.
18:13>> One of, if not, the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take 1 second to hit that
18:41subscribe button if you haven't already.
18:43I really appreciate that. Also, the like button's a big help, and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below.
18:48>> All right, that all sounds good. Prove it.
18:51Uh which sort of leads into how all of this unraveled. Um >> [clears throat] >> I'm I'm giving a presentation to an investor conference.
19:01>> Mhm.
19:02>> Buy-side quant type, you know, alternative data, like, I'm going to give you the I'm going to show you the weak signal uh uh in in in data. You may have heard of, you know, quants like counting cars in parking lots to determine store traffic. I'm like, I'm going to show you this at a at a at a more precise level.
19:23>> [clears throat] >> It's like at a Four Seasons Hotel or Ritz-Carlton.
19:28>> In-Q-Tel goes to those things.
19:30>> Patagonia and Priuses, you know.
19:32>> Uh-huh.
19:33>> Uh so, sitting in the back didn't even notice them. You know, I'm done with my presentation. Two dudes approach me.
19:41And they look like 1%ers from an MC.
19:44>> From a what?
19:45>> Uh one uh motorcycle club.
19:46>> A motorcycle club.
19:47>> Biker gang. They look like bikers.
19:50>> [laughter] >> And >> [clears throat] >> uh John doesn't mind me talking about this cuz me and I are friends now, but sleeves. They look They're not uh from Sand Hill Road in in the Valley.
20:04But they know data, and the questions they're asking me are really different.
20:08They're asking me about Libya, Yemen, Syria.
20:12Is there data as you've described from these places?
20:17>> [snorts] >> I'm like, I don't know.
20:19Want to find out?
20:21So, as that story un- unfolds, I go [clears throat] to work and I start talking to these data companies as I've described these audience attribution companies, data brokers.
20:36I have [clears throat] this cover for action where I'm facilitating analysis for an NGO who wants to know about populations that are uh refugees along the Syrian-Turkish border. Um I had a backstop I had built out.
20:52Um I was talking about, you know, we need to know the the distribution between men and women. We need to know what types of facilities we need to have for women.
21:01Like I had this thing laid out.
21:04But these are data companies, so it was probably overkill. If I had bank, they were going to sell.
21:09>> [snorts] [clears throat] >> Um I'm like, so but this, you know, there we're not you're not selling Nikes in along the Syria-Turkish border.
21:18You're not advertising for Starbucks along the Syria-Turkish border.
21:22>> to sell some [ __ ] grande >> [cough] >> Um [clears throat] mochaccinos.
21:26>> That's right.
21:27>> Um almond milk.
21:28>> And so, you know, they're like, yeah, we've got data usually ends up on the cutting room floor because nobody really we're not monetizing it. Nobody's advertising, but we have data.
21:39Like, all right. How much?
21:42>> [laughter] >> One guy goes, how much you got? Like, ask a stupid question, I'm going to get yeah.
21:48Um So, we go through uh we go through the process.
21:53>> [snorts] >> Um Get a get a data set and start lighting up these areas like You know, we've got millions of data points, with data point being a lat-long observation of a unique device.
22:09>> Lat-long observation of a unique device.
22:12>> Yeah, so this is So, you asked earlier about IP addresses.
22:14>> Yes.
22:16>> Um [clears throat] the apps are pulling location uh your GPS location as your phone is detecting where it precisely is. Not an IP address, which is sort of centroid to a city center or wherever wherever the cutout is. This is putting you like in this parcel.
22:36>> Yeah.
22:37>> Um which to get that to get that distribution, that many observations of unique devices with that degree of precision, it was like that was cutting edge.
22:50Um >> [clears throat] >> And so, we're seeing all of this data and it's like, all right, so what is the use case?
22:59Like, I haven't gotten there yet.
23:01[snorts] >> [clears throat] >> And you know, like okay, we can do this.
23:07This is kind of cool, but what's the use case?
23:11>> Hm.
23:11>> And so I'm sitting in my classified home office skiff.
23:18No.
23:19>> I was going to say that was quick to get this guy.
23:21>> home office in between my master bedroom and my daughter's room.
23:25>> You're in mine right now.
23:26>> Yeah. Yeah, [laughter] yeah. Um and yours is probably better. Yours is probably sound proof cuz I'm sitting in >> We did kind of sound proof it. It's nice in here. Yeah.
23:35>> Um so I'm sitting there like, okay, I have this data. I have this um you know, a user interface a a geospatial user interface a map.
23:46I'm like, I need a use case that's going to matter.
23:50So I'm like, all right.
23:52Where are devices that I know are at Fort Bragg, North Carolina?
23:58Where do they go next or where else in the world are they?
24:02So I draw a little geo fence around >> [clears throat] >> Fort Bragg.
24:07Um hit play and the map starts lighting up.
24:14You know, lots of lots of observations >> Mhm.
24:18>> in and around the lovely Fayetteville, North Carolina.
24:21>> Right.
24:23>> But I'm seeing clusters in Syria.
24:27>> From Fort Bragg?
24:28>> From Fort Bragg.
24:30>> That's promising.
24:31>> So I'm like, this is interesting.
24:34What's this all about?
24:36>> [clears throat] >> Um so I light up, you know, I I start examining like where are they?
24:43And they are located at this abandoned cement factory.
24:51Lafarge cement factory.
24:52>> Lafarge?
24:53>> It's a French company.
24:54>> Hm.
24:55>> Um and they were they were manufacturing cement there.
25:00And if you think about the configuration of it, it's like the perfect forward operating base.
25:05>> Yeah, you put some bodies in cement, no one ever finds it.
25:08>> That's right. Uh you got lots of room.
25:10Um and so I'm looking at this >> [clears throat] >> and then I'm like, all right, let's see.
25:17Where do these devices that I know are attributable between Fort Bragg, North Carolina, where nothing goes on related to special operations.
25:29>> Nothing.
25:29>> Nothing.
25:30>> I didn't even know that.
25:31>> Yeah.
25:31>> Mhm.
25:32>> Um >> [clears throat] >> where JSOC is headquartered as well as um Delta.
25:39>> Mhm. [snorts] >> Um they are located kind of down the road a little bit from the main campus.
25:46>> I understand that.
25:47>> Anyway, um and it's like a Division I one football uh facility.
25:56>> Yeah.
25:56>> Yeah. Think about more, you know, professional football facility. It's if you've ever been to one of those, it's like >> Oh, they're nice.
26:02>> And that's they're they're nice.
26:03>> Yeah.
26:04>> Um >> [clears throat] >> so where So these devices that are in Syria that are affiliated with Fort Bragg, where else are they?
26:14And I start seeing these devices at residential properties in a town called Southern Pines, North Carolina.
26:22>> Oh, still here.
26:23>> Still here, but Southern Pines, North Carolina is really nice, sort of upscale uh residential community.
26:32Um where if you make a few extra bucks and you're in the army, you can afford to live there.
26:39>> Oh.
26:41>> All of this, like I have no a priori knowledge. I am not looking for Delta operators.
26:47I didn't know what Southern Pines meant.
26:50No idea.
26:50>> But you're sitting like in your house with your daughter's bedroom right over there.
26:55>> next door.
26:56>> Looking at open source information going, "Am I about to find the [ __ ] Da Vinci code? Like, is this it?"
27:02>> I'm thinking, all right, so what is the use case here?
27:06>> [clears throat] >> And I don't really know what I have, which is the beautiful thing about this stuff because you go in with like, "I'm going to prove something." And you'll make it work.
27:16I didn't know really what I was looking at.
27:20Um develop that uh those those location points such that you know, I'm seeing contractors from other military bases.
27:32I'm seeing how they are uh moving into Syria, their routes.
27:37Uh so, they all sort of started Fort Bragg and then some guys go to this airport and other guys go to this airport.
27:45And they all end up making cement in northern Syria.
27:50>> [sighs and gasps] >> Um so and that's where I have this meeting that's been written about.
28:00Um and I'm about to step, you know, like this thing's about to get hot.
28:07Um because nobody has any idea about this.
28:11Um and so my partner, uh my he government a civilian government employee, the biker dude that approached me at the Four Seasons without his Patagonia and Prius in the parking lot.
28:23>> I like this guy.
28:24>> Yeah, John Fritzly. Like, and he is not in government anymore, which is one of the read into that what you want, but he's one of the guys. And now he works he's he he >> Yeah, big air quotes there.
28:35>> He's he's making bank as a as a sales guy. Um >> Right.
28:38>> [clears throat] >> Um you know, I'm I'm showing him, you know, I have this PowerPoint sort of built out like that I can click through quickly.
28:47>> [laughter] >> He's looking at it, you know.
28:51>> [gasps] >> He's like, "Let it rip."
28:54This is we need to know. This is This is why we are doing this.
28:58>> Were you uncovering I I'm tracking here as best I can. Were you essentially uncovering that like we were using military in some say intelligence-related operations that we were doing through a concrete company over in Syria and because you tracked the neighborhood in North Carolina that says, "Oh, they're definitely a little higher-level military there." You were able to say, "Hey guys, we're doing [ __ ] undercover and if I have this tool and I'm sitting in [ __ ] Saudi Arabia and I don't like you, I can use this against us to >> unload it?" If I can do it, we must assume that an adversary can do
29:33it.
29:33>> Right.
29:34>> And so that was the That was the This is what we've This is what commercial data without any real uh we weren't part I wasn't targeting anybody. [clears throat] I was Let's see what we can pull out.
29:49>> Yep. Yeah.
29:50>> Um and so the use case became counterintelligence OPSEC um identity management, but more of a operational security use case.
30:00>> And you had never really done anything ever involving the government before.
30:03You'd just been in the software business essentially.
30:06>> Yeah. Yeah.
30:07>> Okay. Yeah. So this is like a whole new world for you out of nowhere.
30:12>> For the for the for the special operations community, 100%.
30:16>> Mhm.
30:17>> Like as I said, you know, you're Delta.
30:19Well, so what does that mean? Right? I mean, I kind of knew, right? But it it just This was not I was not coming from that community knowing what I was looking for.
30:31>> Got it.
30:31>> Which is why this Southern these Southern Pines residences where I'm like, "And here's a house in Southern Pines, North Carolina."
30:40Anyway, so I'm going through this and I and I can see like at first, you know, it's a typical presentation. People are barely paying attention. And I'm like walking through my methodology and you know and Lafarge and that's, you know, a kind of I see you this this got their attention.
31:00>> [laughter] >> Ooh.
31:01>> Hello. Um, and then the next slide is and I you know, these are the these are residences that are attributable to the Lafarge cement factory and you know, everybody gets a little closer.
31:14>> [laughter] >> And they're one guy is looking at it and he you know, the two guys start whispering to each other.
31:20>> Did you [ __ ] with them at all? Like, oh, you guys are paying attention now.
31:23>> Yeah, I I wasn't I wasn't dialed in enough to know what I knew.
31:28>> Okay.
31:29>> Um and then the meeting went didn't go high and right, but it was sort of like stop.
31:39How are you doing this?
31:41Like, I just told you how I was doing it and you weren't paying attention.
31:45>> [laughter] >> But the immediate um you know, um you know, they they were their learning systems or their their perception was I must have hacked intercepted, engineered uh or stolen data in order to do this.
32:06I'm like, I didn't [snorts] do any of those things.
32:08>> Let's go back to the first part of the presentation.
32:10>> Yeah. I bought it.
32:12>> That's not how how so how expensive was it to buy like that iteration?
32:16>> 600,000 bucks.
32:19>> The previous wallet I used over the past 12 or 13 years was so bulky, clunky, and terrible. I don't know why I never changed it. Well, actually I do. It's cuz I'm lazy and didn't think to change it until my friends at Ridge sent me over theirs.
32:32The Ridge wallet is unique and slim and fits into any pocket absolutely seamlessly. This modern design is going to hold up to 12 cards plus cash, and you can push them right out from the bottom to get what you're looking for.
32:45It's like a deck of cards in a way. And in case I wasn't holding that up close enough to the camera, Ridge is made with premium materials like aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber. Don't worry, it's a wallet, not a submarine trying to see the Titanic. If you know, you know.
32:57And Ridge is so confident in this wallet product that it has a lifetime warranty.
33:02You heard that right. This is literally the last wallet you'll ever have to buy.
33:06The Ridge wallet comes with over 50 different colors and styles to choose from, and did I mention it also has RFID blocking technology? That's right. This thing is going to keep you safe from digital pickpockets as well. Ridge isn't just about wallets, either. They create premium everyday carry essentials like key cases, suitcases, rings, and more that are built with the same sleek, durable design. No matter what you pick, Ridge is going to give you free shipping with a 99-day risk-free trial and a lifetime warranty on all their products.
33:34For a limited time, our listeners are going to get 10% off at Ridge using promo code Julian at checkout. Just head to ridge.com, link in description below, use code Julian, and you're all set.
33:45After your purchase, Ridge is going to ask you where you heard about them.
33:47Please support our show and tell them I sent you.
33:51>> So, you know, people say >> you that money again?
33:53>> Yeah, this is J Soc.
33:55>> Okay. All right.
33:56>> Yep.
33:56>> Yep. Got it. Yep. Yeah, no, this was not This was not so fun.
34:00>> to say, send me money, Mike. I I need some.
34:02>> Yeah. So, the the So, this was like the initial sort of proof of concept.
34:06Um little bit of money, let's see what this can do.
34:10Um and All right. So, you have hyper-local awareness of the movements of of special mission unit operators.
34:25>> Yeah.
34:26>> Um who get, you know, trained on all this stuff and counterintelligence and um opsec and and all of these things.
34:34And they're like, so you're telling me that all of this was put together without any a priori knowledge, you didn't have any cheats or shortcuts or hacks. And I'm like, my only hack was I know Fort Bragg. Mhm. That was all I needed as my seed location.
34:50[ __ ] China, [ __ ] you know, like they know. There's no secret, right?
34:54>> They own land all around it.
34:55>> They That's right. The United Front Work Department, they buy it. Um >> Yeah, they're watching it from the farm.
35:01>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, talk about that. Um And so um And that was sort of the okay, you've you haven't proven anything yet, but we're paying attention.
35:13>> Mhm.
35:15>> Um >> They probably thought you were Mossad or something.
35:18>> They thought I was a charlatan.
35:20They thought I was a snake oil salesman.
35:22I mean, they said it like one guy said it to my face and walked out. Like, I don't >> Even after you got the name of the place and their addresses, but how could you be a charlatan? That's insane.
35:32>> You're familiar with remote viewing?
35:35>> [laughter] >> One guy accused me, he's like, are you doing that remote viewing stuff?
35:40>> we So you're like, so you're admitting that's real?
35:42>> [laughter] >> I mean, I was like, uh no. This is I promise you, I'm a deep thinker, but, you know, not like that.
35:52>> Let's get Elizondo in here, test him out, see what's going on.
35:55>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um And so we've started to build that out a little bit. And this has all been documented and there's nothing And and this is, you know, going back almost 10 years ago.
36:06>> I was going to say so.
36:07>> Uh so, um we've gotten much better at all of this. The plat- the, you know, the the devices have gotten much better at just not protecting special mission unit operators and spies and case officers, just for population, for humanity. The platforms of the devices have gotten uh better with with privacy and not making it so easy for just anybody to start doing this.
36:32>> Can you explain how they've done that?
36:33Like some key ways?
36:35>> Yeah. Um so anything where For example, every time you open up an app and it gives you a you know 70 boxes to check to provide permissions as a matter of getting that app to work on your phone as opposed to the app just loading on your phone and having all of those permissions set like and do cross cross-app tracking, your location, all of that stuff.
37:01>> But people, to be clear though, and I'll speak for myself, but I'm sure I speak for a lot of people listening right now. This some apps when they ask like if a flashlight app or something like that ask, I'm like, yeah, [ __ ] that. But then there's other apps like maybe off the top of my head like a navigator app or something like, can we know your location? I'm like, well, [ __ ] yeah, you have to know my location or it doesn't work. So that stuff is all still we're still all hitting yes to that.
37:23>> I and I this is this is the the choice that we have to make. Like when I when I'm when it when I have 3% battery and it's raining outside and I need an Uber, I don't want to be [ __ ] around trying to get my little drop a pin and all this [ __ ] I want it to work. So I make that trade-off and I we have this trust because Uber's relationship or any app where you you have that trust. Like your your data is important and they're not going to be you know, selling it to anybody and everybody. They don't need to. Firstly, it's too valuable.
37:59Um but they're not going to be doing that.
38:02And you have to make those you have to make those choices.
38:05Um but you're right. When you want when when location is fundamental to the app's functionality, um yeah, that's that's a choice that's a choice to make.
38:15>> So how do our how does our government now with like the special forces guys and stuff like that.
38:22Adequately defend against this when those guys, you know, they have a life too. So they have a phone. They use Uber and stuff like [snorts] that. How how do they set it up so that if they are using those services, you can't track them to Lafarge anymore?
38:34>> Yeah. So, this is what we have to understand as societies, the capitalization behind being able to segment us into cohorts, into audience groups.
38:48That [snorts] cap structure is so huge that there isn't a silver bullet that's going to defeat that.
38:57Um it's just it's just it's there's just nothing there's just nothing that'll allow you to to to to fully fight back.
39:07Um I mean you you you're going to tell me that there's, you know, something you can do on your phone to defeat Google?
39:14No. And even when um you know, when a when a new privacy regulation comes online, um you know, their ability to pivot into other ways and methods of of understanding sort of your device behavior and activity uh through all sorts of means. I mean these things are are emitting so much telemetry uh data. You know, um it's uh you know, they're packaging up telemetry packs uh and at, you know, 2:00 in the morning if you were observing the processing the the CPUs of your device, all of the sudden it would, you know, you would be like, "What the What What's going on?"
39:58Because it's, you know, it's transmitting diagnostic information about the device.
40:03Um you know, there was um When did When did we have the Beijing Olympics? Was it >> 2008?
40:11>> 2020, which got pushed to 2022, but it was supposed to be in 2020 in Beijing.
40:18>> Didn't we have it back or was that Hong Kong in '08? I don't remember.
40:22>> Anyway, so the most recent Olympics in Beijing, um they they every athlete all over the Olympic, um you know, if you were part of the if you were part of the Olympics, if you were going to go and spectate, you had to download an app.
40:39And um if you look at what that and there was no, um you know, select which permissions you want to allow to be to be collected.
40:54>> Mhm.
40:54>> It was your location, your battery power, um processing power, what apps you have open, the full gamut of device behavior.
41:04>> And so, all right, um I can understand, you know, like all of these conveniences that we we convince ourselves that it's more convenient to let tech do these things, so I'm just going to let it auto I'm just going to automate it and let it know, you know, where I am so that so there, you know, we could we could make the case that um knowing precise location as you're navigating venues is somehow, you know, to allow access or control or but at the end of the day, if you look at the data that this app is collecting, they'd be able to segment the differences between the Australian ski team's device usage from the New
41:47Zealand's ski team. And it could be this weak signal, like their battery power at these times is at this level and their what is that signal? I don't know if there's a signal there, but over time and collected in context with maybe other things, um you know, now do we know that there's unusual there's something unusual about >> Hey guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge huge help. Thank you.
42:17>> This cohort based upon some non-obvious indicator that doesn't make sense to anybody else, but when you layer that in with other things, that is a signal of intent.
42:30>> Imagine if I like this is one thing I think that gets lost on on people when when you have this conversation cuz people think like, "Oh, well, there's a million things going on. How could it be figured out so easily?" First of all, you guys have incredible tools to do it.
42:44Secondly, we now literally have AI to help do it. So, even before that, though.
42:47>> That [ __ ] is that [ __ ] is faster >> Yep.
42:50>> than a Stasi-trained Roomba on Adderall.
42:54>> A Stasi-trained Roomba on Adderall. So, wait, stop the Stasis are training Roombas, too? Do I need to know about that?
43:02I I haven't bought a Roomba. It kind of freaks me out, but I shouldn't do that.
43:07>> It's it's really fast, so at scale to think as a human. And you asked earlier about what can you know, what can operators or or or sensitive cohorts do?
43:18>> Yeah.
43:18>> It's happening so fast, and if you look at the litany of things that you should be concerned about, we don't have the cognitive capability to manage all of this.
43:27>> That's exactly that.
43:28>> Especially if we are operating.
43:31>> Yes. You can't think about like [ __ ] 150 apps on your phone all night.
43:36>> sitting there like, "Oh, you know."
43:37>> Right.
43:37>> So, um it's it's it's not a solution, and there's not much to sell when I, you know, talk to these communities.
43:49It's about understanding, you know, what is it what am I what am I communicating?
43:54What am I saying about myself when I do these things?
43:57>> And at least being able to use it against the adversaries, too.
44:00>> So, there's a level playing field.
44:02>> is uh So, so, because of podcasts and because of the availability of former tier one operators to appear on podcasts.
44:11>> I've had a few.
44:12>> You've had a few.
44:13Um Uh and I'm this is not a criticism. I don't want to get into that.
44:17>> Yeah, the Navy was [ __ ] tracking our podcast every time they were here. It's like, "Oh, there he is.
44:22[ __ ] that [ __ ] in Jersey again."
44:24>> But if you think about it, the uh the tactical cohort or the tactical audience, which is now access to the lifestyle of an operator, what they wear, how they dress, where they go, how they talk, all of these things um has created this new group of consumer who aren't operators.
44:50>> Mhm.
44:51>> But they wear all the [ __ ] and they buy all the guns and they go to the gun ranges and they drive trucks and they do all of this stuff that is the operator lifestyle.
45:00>> Yes.
45:01>> So, for that community, we now have >> cover.
45:07>> ballast.
45:09>> [laughter] [gasps] >> That's why >> So, you're contributing to the operational security of >> all right. I'm okay with that. I like protecting our loved ones.
45:19>> 20 years ago, you familiar with 5.11, the the the clothing store?
45:24>> 7-Eleven.
45:25>> 5.11.
45:26You know, 5.11 would not be It's like this.
45:29Uh Carhartt.
45:31>> Yeah. [clears throat] >> I've been wearing Carhartt since 1993.
45:34Nobody, you know, you were either a working man to wear Carhartt. Now it's like >> It's back.
45:40>> It's fashionable.
45:40>> back. They wear it on like They wear it at Fashion Week. It's crazy.
45:45>> Uh what's his name?
45:49Wrote a song about it.
45:50>> Kanye?
45:51>> Was it Kanye and >> I mean, he's written songs about a lot of things these days, but you know.
45:56>> uh I won't go down that. Um >> [laughter] >> But 5.11 is like this tactical, you know, clothing store.
46:03>> 20 years ago, like they would never have had a storefront in, you know, suburban Washington D.C. And now everybody's wearing 5.11.
46:11>> Yep. I see what you're saying.
46:13>> Um, you know, and so this tactical lifestyle, um, the interest in it by virtue of the availability, you know, to hear these guys talk, um, to see what they wear, it's kind of like, you know, I want to be a cool guy, too.
46:29>> Yeah.
46:30>> Um, so that provides this sort of this, um, little bit of operational cover, because an adversary is going to be like, all right, unless I see, you know, all of these, you know, if unless I'm able to observe them at overt known government facility, like I don't know what I'm looking at. Is that an operator? Is that just the guy that can afford to look like one?
46:50>> Yeah.
46:51>> Um, so, you know, there are it's it's not all bad.
46:58>> And everyone had like that's the thing.
47:00There's like mutually assured blackmail tracking destruction in a way around the world now when you're talking about like the best intelligence agencies, you've got your handful because >> [gasps] [sighs] >> especially when you're talking about publicly available information, they all can get access to it and as long as they know how to read the language now, thanks to guys like you, like they can all do it on each other. It still puts in danger the quote-unquote chess pieces that are on the board though because you know that that's a risk. You know if you're setting up an intelligence operation now,
47:31you know, your guys still carry iPhones or something. Now, there are some things. This is I'm very not well read in this, so please just fill in and correct me where I'm wrong, but, you know, I've [snorts] heard about things like they'll make guys carry Faraday cages and stuff like that. But again, that come to me, I would assume that comes back to the question of like giving up the convenience of even having the [ __ ] thing in the first place.
47:55>> Yeah, the the Faraday bags, um uh So, here's this is and this is really sort of into the weeds, but so I see a device behaving in a certain way uh and then all of a sudden, I don't see it.
48:14It's it's a Monday afternoon, Tuesday afternoon.
48:17Normal people, their devices are functioning. I am able to see signal throughout the day.
48:23Checking checking Instagram, [ __ ] off.
48:28But these devices that are in the Washington D.C. area from time to time or at very specific times are not emitting any signal.
48:40That's a that's a that's a jump, but you know, like if if you're looking for that non-obvious indicator.
48:47>> Yep.
48:48>> Like what devices if I've got a million devices uh that behave in a very predictable manner.
48:56And then I've got 100 devices that exceed that predictable parameter.
49:02I'm interested in those 100 devices.
49:04>> Right.
49:04>> Because somebody dropped it in a Faraday bag.
49:07>> So, I just had in Joe Wall, who's Wall, who's the CEO of that Israeli spyware phone, the Unplugged phone. I joke it's, you know, it is kind of run through Israel. But anyway, so he was explaining [snorts] that when they've used this for some of the tactical guys, like out in the field and stuff like that, they have to have a product that creates a false signal so that they don't stand out for that very reason you just said.
49:34>> Yep. So, you if So, when when you need your device to continue a pattern of life right? Or a you know, a a technical pattern of life. You need to you're posting and you're doing [ __ ] on Instagram like once an hour.
49:50You need that device to continue to behave that way.
49:54>> Mhm.
49:55>> Which is um you know, there's a lot to go into that to to scale it and make it work, but that's the kind of thing you want to maintain that degree of normalcy or usualness.
50:11>> Yeah.
50:11>> want to be that unusual device in and around Fayetteville, North Carolina, and Virginia Beach, Washington, D.C., Tysons Corner that does weird things.
50:21>> Yep.
50:21>> Um so, how do we maintain that degree of normalcy?
50:26Um and and the idea, the concept that privacy has sort of developed into this normal like you're not hiding something if you are into data privacy. That's become a normal sort of trait, feature.
50:42>> Mhm.
50:43>> Cover again.
50:44>> It's because normal people are using ProtonMail and Signal and all of these >> VPNs.
50:50>> VPNs. It is a normal behavior even if you're not hiding, cheating, dealing drugs, or whatever, right? That's definitely not.
51:01>> Um Well, we'll talk because I I'm I may have some other thoughts on that for you based upon your patterns of life.
51:09>> Oh, okay.
51:10>> kidding. I'm kidding.
51:12>> I'm kidding. Those days are behind me.
51:13>> Yeah. Um So, you know, again, maintaining that posture of normalcy through privacy, which >> [snorts] >> you know, that's one of the uh if you think about, you know, your personal pillars of privacy, like what is your privacy stack? I use a VPN, okay? Make sure you're using the right one, not one that's free or developed and hosted in Romania.
51:36Use one that's from Switzerland.
51:39>> Yeah.
51:40>> You know, an email service that's based in Switzerland.
51:43Um What does your privacy stack look like because it >> Cuz it's literally Switzerland.
51:50>> Cuz of all you know in terms of their data privacy laws, it it you know, it's rooted sort of in that mindset of their banking what they were for banking they have they have become for for data privacy.
52:03>> Got it. Okay.
52:04>> Um >> Shout out Switzerland.
52:06>> Yeah. Uh you know, they they they don't have a de facto uh compliance uh agreement for um data seizures.
52:17>> Love that.
52:18>> Um And you know, Switzerland has always sort of had this um this posture of of secrecy, right? Um you need to launder money.
52:28>> That's where you go.
52:29>> laundering it in Hoboken.
52:31The allegedly but yeah. Yeah. Uh you're going to go to Switzerland.
52:35>> I know >> [snorts] >> I know a couple guys.
52:36>> Yeah, yeah. You're going to Um So you you know, everybody should have their sort of pillars of privacy.
52:43Um for a whole a whole host of reasons that um um is more about personal dignity and autonomy and and identity than anything else. It's not about hiding.
52:58And so you know, you look at some of the um the operating systems or the Unplugged phone as all right, if I'm going to upgrade my privacy game, maybe I want to maybe I want to go down this route.
53:12>> What do you let's actually get a little specific though just cuz I literally had Joe in here the CEO of Unplugged. What what do you think of that?
53:19>> I I I think it's um So from from a the personal you know, from a personal individual perspective I think it's um it's all about preference and how how deep you want to go.
53:35>> Mhm.
53:35>> [clears throat] >> Um and I think from you know, an operational perspective the more we can move tech to tech that is commercially overt in that it's not going to look weird if I have some SN science and technology directorate built phone that does weird things. It doesn't look like 10,000 other devices. If if we can if we can mirror all of the tech that is commercially available that provides covert communication or protected communication um against an adversary that is looking for that outlier.
54:19Well, it's hard to look for an outlier amongst thousands or millions versus an outlier of like, "I've never seen this messaging app before." Oh, and I see four other devices that are communicating there.
54:33And you know, they're staying two blocks away from the US Embassy.
54:37>> That's now you're speaking my language as far as I where I was going in my head when I was talking with Joe about what the intentions of like Joe and Erik Prince might be. And like viewing seeing as Erik Prince founded it and he's like a long time you know, defense military guy and all that. I could see him thinking, I don't know this, but I could see him like all right, well, if we could get like 5% of the marketplace, that's enough noise. It's enough noise to make our 0.01% we actually care about blend in.
55:06>> I think that that's um whatever that market share is 5% >> Yeah.
55:11>> against the the Apple Google duopoly.
55:14That'd be >> That's something.
55:16>> be like if I, you know, there are 10 million kids wearing sneakers. If I can just corner 1% of that, I'll be rich.
55:22That's 1% is [ __ ] hard.
55:25>> Oh, of course. I'm not even talk By the way, like yeah, I'm sure that's part of it, too. It's a business. They're trying to make money. So, yeah, that'd be great for them in in their goals. But I'm even talking about it from like the second order effect of all right, well, Eric Prince is blowing up people in Haiti right now. So at the government's behest and he's thinking about the projects like that that involve intelligence and protecting people and it's like if we had more of these phones on the ground, they could blend in.
55:49>> Um and there are plenty of businesses, legitimate, not [ __ ] props and you know, intelligence entities, but like legitimate businesses where protecting data and communications is essential.
56:04>> Of course.
56:05>> Uh investment banking. You're doing your your the investment banker that's [ __ ] organizing the the private planes and the meeting places between company that's going to acquire and company that's getting acquired. You don't want >> That's correct.
56:19>> the arbs to come in and and play that against you. You want to protect that.
56:24Um you want to have secure reading rooms. You want to have the ability to share documents without, you know, without anybody intercepting them. Um the movie business is really good at this where they need, you know, they're on location and they need the exfil, you know, >> [clears throat] >> the dailies from their next billion-dollar blockbuster with Tom Cruise. They don't want those intercepted.
56:49>> That's right.
56:50>> Um so there are lots of there are many commercial applications where secrecy is essential that create that that market share where you know, we're we're proliferating within the consumer industry to to create that that ballast, that noise, that, you know, somebody who's operational carrying this phone is can't tell the difference between them or an investment banker or, you know, somebody that's protecting intellectual property or pharmaceutical research.
57:23>> Oh, there's so much of it. You're making an amazing point. There you look at any major industry, doesn't matter what it is. Even to take even take the the hat off. Just regular business that has to happen where there's a lot of dollars and cents on the line.
57:35It's a form of intelligence.
57:37>> 100%.
57:38>> It's business intelligence. People can go and [ __ ] bet on that if they find something out. That's how the public markets work. I mean, they're not supposed to do that, but you know what I mean.
57:45>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um you know, my commercial side of the business, you know, I work with a lot of hedge fund managers.
57:51>> I was just going to bring it up. These guys will put [ __ ] drones over farms in China to find out if if, you know, Apple's making a new chip.
57:58>> And you know what's really great about They all want They all want like their own little CIAs. Right.
58:03>> That's good for you.
58:05>> [laughter] >> Mike's like, "Yeah, I'll be $3 million.
58:07I can get that."
58:08>> Yeah, yeah. It's It's amazing. Like, they all want their guy. If you ever watched Billions Billions, they all want their Iceland.
58:17>> Oh, dude, that show is is you know, scarily realistic on some things. Not all of it, but like yeah.
58:24>> all want their fixer, their guy who can do [ __ ] >> Yeah.
58:28>> And um >> You look like you beat the [ __ ] out of people, too. I like that.
58:32>> Yeah.
58:32>> That's good. Right as he's saying that, he [ __ ] pulls out [ __ ] gun one and [laughter] gun two.
58:37>> Uh so so there are the the shift that is occurring that started, you know, when commercial data became um you know, the community became aware of its of its risk and of its power. And we do a lot We did a lot of stuff not, you know, cowering [clears throat] in the corner. We used it.
58:59>> Yeah.
59:00>> Um >> Yeah, we'll get to that.
59:03>> Um moving to that sort of commercial mindset, not everything has to be a black box built by Q.
59:13Um we need to sort of in this data environment where maybe you've heard people talk about something called ubiquitous technical surveillance, UTS.
59:23Um >> Actually, I have heard UTS.
59:25>> UTS.
59:26>> But fill me in on that.
59:27>> so you it's everything that we've talked about, but the community refers to it as ubiquitous technical surveillance. So, it's the cameras, the Wi-Fi sniffers, adtech, everything that's sort of ambient, you know, um the the the Stasi-trained Roomba on Adderall.
59:44>> Mhm.
59:44>> Um particularly in environments where surveillance is just part of the deal.
59:54Uh UTS >> UTS >> has has made it such where it's like I'm going to go down the street and I'm I am I can never consider myself black.
60:07So, instead of, you know, I can run an 8-hour surveillance detection route, and [clears throat] there's no physical surveillance. I don't have, you know, guys following me, but they're following me through my phone.
60:22>> Right. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
Read the essay version →