Cool.
0:01So, when DeF sent me this, I went and took a look at your Instagram and it's kind of funny in the sense that I used to be so on it with college football and everything, I was such a huge fan. And then >> when I started doing when I like got out and got a job and then especially when I started doing this like full-time, there's some things like whether it be college football, even like other sports like basketball used to watch all the time, the NBA, like I never have time to watch this stuff. So in some ways like the last six, seven years is a bit of a blur to where it's like I can't remember who the best players were, who won the
0:33Heisman, who was winning the national titles, but this is when you were a major heralded recruit and playing at the Ohio State University, which is extremely impressive. Was it was it Urban Meyer who recruited you?
0:46>> He recruited me. Yeah, he recruited me and then um switched the the head coach position position switched to coach day as I was being my senior year. Um, so I was actually one of the first I signed in December of 2018. Um, and that was like Coach Day's first, I guess, early recruiting period, early recruiting class. Um, but Coach Day was my he was my first call from um from Ohio State and uh yeah, he called me after I think Yeah, he called me. He was the OC at the time and then that just began sort of my recruiting process. But yeah, I played from Buford, Georgia, played at Buford, um, which I think they're ranked number
1:21one now nationally in terms of just like high school ball. uh but ended up being, you know, the number one ranked center, highly recruited, offered by a lot of places um and decided on Ohio State and then went there and then >> Yeah. So I guess and so you're so Yeah.
1:38>> Yeah. We we'll get into the story, but real quick before we do that, was football something that you were great at and loved or just great at and didn't love?
1:49>> What was your relationship?
1:50>> I think for a period it was the same time. I think like [snorts] um like fascination followed the form and like from a young age I was just I was bigger than the rest of the kids and so football made absolute sense and I had a lot of talent and I was able to express myself very well in football from second grade I started playing and then >> express yourself.
2:11>> Yeah. I was just I was just I was bigger. Um I was physical and um I played well and so it made sense to keep playing. I played other sports.
2:20played like lacrosse and baseball growing up, but football was what I, you know, was able to like be um semi-professional at to play well and ended up yeah getting to high school and getting recruited by. So like my top five were Ohio State, Stanford, Clemson, Notre Dame, Georgia, among others like you know, everybody was sort of like vying for that >> programs right there, >> right?
2:42>> Jesus Christ. Um, >> and then yeah, so got recruited and so like yeah, out of Ohio State I was, you know, I was the number one ranked center in the country, but also I was like I was the valadictorian at Buford High School. And so >> you validictorian over there?
2:54>> Yeah. Class of 2019, Buford Wolves.
2:56>> No.
2:58>> Yep.
2:58>> Yeah. I I knew you were a genius, but damn.
3:00>> No, that's that's like I feel strange even right now talking about high school. Makes me feel very >> Why?
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3:30>> I just feel well, especially well, now it's like I feel very far removed. Well, I think in in totality um 18 up until 18 I was I was my adolescent self and then college especially especially in a different state is a is a step. Um, it's a departure. And honestly, and and I've written I've actually um a lot of the stuff I'd be like saying today about this, I I wrote in a in a memoir like last winter. Um, I wrote like this like 200,000word memoir in about two months. And >> two months.
4:09>> Yeah. So, I was like I was just jotting out words and just lots of coffee and lots of just like I was just writing in my room while it was cold out. Um, which really helped me process some stuff.
4:18But, you know, the the formula that any successful college football program emulates is really of sort of is is a cult in which you remove you take children. It's it's the same thing as the Manson children. You take children from a different state, bring them to an exotic location, you know, mantras, team colors, um, bonding through suffering, lots of things that just help you sort of, um, fulfill fill fill yourself into this new identity, this new role. And, uh, yeah, like I was I was all in and, uh, went to Ohio State and like really really really um, blood, sweat, and tears literally into the
4:58program and, um, had success there. And then and then yeah, I guess it just sort of I I'll explain just sort of like how all that shook out, but um highly recruited football player, went to Ohio State, uh was a was a backup my freshman year behind. So that was 2019. We won the Big 10 championship and then lost in the Fiesta Bowl to Clemson that year.
5:22And um I was the backup. Then COVID hit and that off season and then ultimately that co season I was playing I was the starting I was the starting left guard um as a sophomore and that was sort of co paired with starting college football was a real it was like it was very sort of MKI ultra. was very there was no external human contact to sort of like ground yourself or like neutralize the >> what we were in which was like high stakes high stress college football. It was like it was like it was very Truman showy in which case like football's a production like football's a huge cameras interviews there's this it's
6:04reality television um with these like outlets on the weekend and it was just very strange for for months where you know really the only human contact I was getting was physical human violence in context of the game um being yelled at in meetings and coached in which case like the meetings meetings being a euphemism for like sort of staring at uh projector screen of your of your fuckups and like replaying them and then it's just so it becomes really heavy. It becomes very repetitive.
6:34>> Um >> and so over the course of that co season, you know, I really my my mental health diminished.
6:40>> Quick question on that. Just cuz it was such a strange time and you were still like you said a part of this whole production that's going on.
6:48>> All the rules they had to have for you guys that first year had to be nuts, right? like you couldn't even you'd go to a meeting you got to be masked up the whole time I imagine like like just walk me in there what did that what did everything look like >> so that was 2020 so I mean >> so at first I was in Nicaragua um when the school was closed so I've got family friends in Nicaragua um who who I like I I'll leave their name out of it just for like for their safety but they run um programs down there and uh fantastic people and I've been going there since a young age and so I was in Nicaragua with a friend of mine doing
7:24just doing some like fixing up the school, doing some stuff like that. Uh school got cancelled. We got notification that school was being closed because of COVID. So this would have been maybe like last week of March, sometime in March. Um and so rather than flying back to Ohio, flew back to Georgia, we spent about probably a month, two months remote at home. um essentially doing nothing, just sort of treading water as we like wait to hear what's happening. Start of June, we're able to report back to campus and campus is essentially dead. So for that whole sort of 2020 season, classes are remote
8:00and classes are remote, but football is doing football and so it was very it was a it was a ghost town in terms of in terms of campus really was only student athletes. It was a really big like essentially just college was just athletics as we were moving through that very limited um in person capacity and yeah I mean it was sort of like and as as you remember just sort of the the hysterics the confusion there was a point where we were trying to like play football with gators across our face and like guys are essentially like waterboarding themselves with sweat and perspiration and like >> what across
8:33>> gators. So like gators are like just like those you could wear it around your neck and then pull it up. Um, >> shyies. Yeah, like shyies.
8:40>> We got a few in the back.
8:41>> They were trying to put like glass glass over the mask. They were trying to >> glass >> like like plexi like not [clears throat] like just like Yeah, they were try they were just throwing everything at the wall. Um, >> were you guys just talking like this is so [ __ ] >> Yeah, we all I mean Yeah, we all knew that it was pretty stupid. I think the Big 10 was um probably the strictest because I don't think the SEC ever got close to canceling their season. For a time, we did cancel their season. And then I guess everybody at the Big 10 saw that the SEC was still going and playing games and >> making their money and doing everything
9:16they had to do. And so then it's like, well, of course, well, now let's we can play ball now. And so we played ball, but then now we're playing in stadiums empty, but with cardboard cutouts of of fans to look full.
9:28>> Weird. So now you can hear like you can hear the opposite sideline talking while you're talking and then you're having to like simulate artificial crowd noise. Um >> Oh, they were doing that too.
9:39>> Yeah. So it was like so like we had an away game in Penn State and uh Beaver Stadium. Um and what would have been a white out was just cardboard cutouts and then and then fake static coming from the from the PA system. Um, and so it was just very it was just very bizarro world upside down and uh yeah, we were I was playing ball and I was starting my sophomore year.
10:04Um, and it was and that's an extremely I mean that's why it's called the sophomore slump. Like it's very hard to go from a a freshman uh backup who comes in during trash time. I played with a I played with a transfer from West Virginia named Chris Chugenov who was like very he was very like um Blue Mountain State like just super lovable and like a real like an elder for me as a as a young guy and um he was he so he was a fifth year from West Virginia. I was a freshman, you know, dog good from Buford center. He was the quarterback. Um and so we would do CQ exchange. she was the backup quarterback and we would call it the
10:44graveyard shift because like everybody would leave the stadium and we were just like closing out the fourth quarter running zone left, zone right, um ground game just like trying to burn the clock out as we were up 40 points or whatever.
10:57And then so to go sophomore season, there's like no fans. I didn't really have a spring season because the spring ball had been cancelled because of um >> co and I felt very behind in terms of like I just felt very unconfident as a player and I really I really I played that entire sophomore season and I really didn't feel um I really didn't feel like I was playing football. I think that's and I think play is a very important verb because you know in high school um it's very easy you know being more gifted as a football player to just like beat up on kids and you feel like you feel like just [ __ ] of the walk. It's
11:35just you feel so powerful. You feel like a demigod and then of course the talent equates when you get to college football and um you know that's when like savvy and skill and game IQ and all these things really start to like matter and I was still I was still so young. And I still had so many things to learn and I was always as a perfectionist, as a validictorian, as a as a as a kid who took these things very seriously, too seriously I would say really. I um I just really got in my head about it. And that whole season, I just felt very uh dejected that whole time. And that's when it really the cracks started to
12:09form in in my relationship with football and my relationship with myself. And uh it really wasn't until we we played the 2020 Big 10 Championship against Northwestern and um we ended up just having to run the ball a bunch and our our running back Trey Surman I think had a record-breaking like ground game in terms of rushing yards and that was just that really felt like just football again to me for the first time.
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14:08>> Um, that was 2020.
14:11>> Were you able to make like get a lot of [snorts] friends outside of playing football? And the reason I asked that is cuz what I think a lot of people don't understand is you guys in D1 football have a depending on the program a 60 to 80 hour a week job.
14:26>> Yeah. No, I mean I I did I don't think and I think in the case of most college football players I'm probably not the rule. I studied engineering at Ohio State and so I had a pretty rigorous academic schedule outside of football which made me if you especially in engineering if you don't develop a competent friend group >> um who you can like float homework back and forth and like compare answers and like work together like you'll get just absolutely just creamed if you're if you're not ready. So I had a really close friend group just because my academics were so rigorous. Um >> but you you feel like you're being
14:59pulled away from things though too.
15:00Well, I described it. It's it's really sort of like it's any sort of like heroic double personality where it's like if if Peter Parker and Spider-Man if Peter Parker doesn't show up to the spelling be because Spider-Man had to save orphans from a burning building or vice versa, Peter Parker's got debate and so Spider-Man misses like an old lady getting crushed by the subway. Like either way, he's he is receiving the brunt of some sort of responsibility that he can't control. Um there's just not enough of him to go around. Um, it was a very demanding schedule for but for me like I was able to I kept a 4.0
15:34in engineering and I was a roads finalist as while I played Ohio State football.
15:38>> You had a 4.0 in [ __ ] engineering while you're playing at Ohio State University football full time.
15:44>> Yeah, >> there's a bit of a complex story. Well, now we'll get complex story.
15:48>> Okay.
15:48>> Well, I've been wanting to talk about this for [laughter] a long time.
15:51>> It's it's funny now in retrospect, but when I was like an anal nerd, it was really important to me. Um but so 2020 wraps up. I end up getting COVID. Um and that now you want to talk about sort of like the asinine iness of the policies. We were eventually getting so we were probably PCR testing twice a day near the end of the season. So we're getting like these these swabs up the nose.
16:18>> I remember those >> very frequently. And um it was, you know, I don't know if this was ever confirmed or not, but the talk in the college football world was that some programs in the SEC had intentionally like um inoculated themselves to CO.
16:34They had all gotten CO early in the season because you would have immunity shortly after.
16:38>> And so the the rumor, >> but you would >> the logic that was that Yeah. The logic was >> I got it like [ __ ] 11 times.
16:44>> Well, I I think if you got the policy was if you got it, you wouldn't be tested again for however long.
16:50period of time was.
16:51>> And so the theory the theory was that some programs were like getting kids sick early to miss non-essential games.
16:57We ended up getting hit right before the national championship. I got it over New Year's and Christmas. Um and we ended up just getting sort of like picked at near the end of the year. Um, and what was crazy was we were eventually you could get a rhyme and reason for this CO stuff and you would realize that like a guy would get it and his roommate or his friend would test positive like 4 days later. So there's this weird lag through proximity where you knew if a guy got it that the next guy if he hadn't gotten it yet would be getting it in 4 days. And so what was so funny was [laughter] before the Big 10 championship um one of
17:35my best friends tested positive for COVID and I knew by the logic I I had CO but I wouldn't test positive. So when they test me I tested negative, played in the Big 10 Championship.
17:48>> The next day, so that would have been a Saturday. The next day on a Sunday, >> we're doing our meetings and we're doing our recovery lifts and all that stuff. I test positive and get sent home. And so like even in that sort of like lowered trust in the sort of like infrastructure we had going on but we were playing catchup that whole year.
18:02>> Um and uh so I ended up testing positive co over Christmas and I guess part of New Year's. Yeah. So I watched the Fiesta Bowl from my home that we won. Um and then we played in the national championship against against Alabama. I was a backup in that case because I was coming off of COVID. I don't think I had any full pad practices before the national championship. But through injuries, I ended up going in in the fourth quarter also maybe 10,000 capacity. Um mostly cardboard cutouts and I ended up dislocating my shoulder against Alabama.
18:34>> Which one?
18:35>> Left shoulder. Tore my labum. Got that repaired.
18:38>> And um you need both, bro.
18:40>> Yeah. So you got like a letter J. Is that a letter J?
18:43>> Two 360s over there >> for for Why did you get yours? the labrooms and then they got the labroom was completely torn 360 both.
18:51>> So I tore it when I was like a kid and didn't know it and it would always bother me when I played basketball.
18:57Someone hit me like that. It would bother me. So I finally got it checked when I was like 20 and they're like well you know you could get it fixed. I'm like ah we'll let it ride >> and then I dislocated it was down here.
19:07>> Well, right and then it just starts like dropping out. Right. Like it >> Oh yeah. I dislocated it 15 times before I got the first surgery. Yeah. It's nasty though.
19:13>> Mine was just fortunately on the posterior side. So I think like my arm got sort of pulled across body on a block and it and it hurt bad. Um got a repair and then hence now we're talking about the 4.0. I was like this is a bit this is going to sound like incoherent. Um I took my I took my grades very seriously. I read my syllabus >> thoroughly and like in the physics class before there was a thing about like citing work or whatever and long story short I'm coming off this late room surgery. I'm still on like what however many oxies of like coming out of the surgery, but I wasn't like I wasn't
19:48missing school. I was still taking my quizzes and >> oxy.
19:51>> Yeah. And this was and so I was now in statics. So this was like statics 2010.
19:55And so this was just like intro stuff.
19:57And long story short, because I cited a piece of work in a way that was like I wasn't supposed to on a quiz.
20:03This led to a whole sort of like COM academic misconduct thing where they essentially I finished with like a 100 in the class or like a 90 whatever 98 99 whatever. Um but they gave me like a they demerited me and sort of killed my so my it's not a 4.0 it's a 3.997 GPA.
20:22>> I'm so sorry.
20:22>> Which rounds up which rounds up when you're just do two digits two significant figures. Um but that's that now this then >> they really hit you for the oxy's citation. That's kind of funny.
20:33>> Well, that's what I'm saying. Well, that Well, I never even got a day in court, which sort of this set me on the path of like I felt like John Rambo. I [laughter] felt like I felt like I had just received a surgery. [laughter] I I was I said blood, sweat, and tears.
20:48Blood, sweat, tears.
20:49>> They drew first blood.
20:50>> That's what I'm saying. And I was like that's what really sort of like broke my illusion of the sort of like >> what's going on here? Um >> that broke your illusion.
21:01>> That broke my illusion. a littleation, >> you know, and uh >> so yeah. So then so that's sophomore I recover. So now I've started my sophomore year. I ended up being a third team all big 10. So I got like an accolade. Um but I really at that point like sort of hated myself. I hated >> You hated yourself.
21:18>> I hated I just I didn't think I was a good player. Um >> you were third team all big 10 as a sophomore at Ohio State University playing in the national title.
21:27>> Yeah.
21:28>> And you didn't feel like you were a good player?
21:30>> No. the the at at at at that place and like this is not this is not none of this is a condemnation. None of this this is just the way that it is. Like there's no it makes no sense to try to make some like moral claim.
21:40>> If anything I say this cuz I still have like friends who are professional players now who reach out to me for advice on like how to like contextualize things. And for me this eventually foreshadowing got so bad that I was like willing to myself to not have to deal with this. Um but especially like that co was a perfect microcosm of of the sort of containment and the um and the mentality that goes into a thing like that where and it's so funny now cuz like now I don't even consume college football. So, I haven't watched college football since I since I stopped playing and and No, cuz for for a moment I
22:17couldn't watch it because it hurts so bad. And then now it's just I I just it's [sighs] it's just in the past and it's like I can't it just makes no sense to me anymore. Do you One of if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description
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22:58I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. I think you described it was really interesting how you described it earlier plucking kids the way you put it from around the country to go to one place where it's one team you join each others through suffering and you described it as >> cultlike. Is there a part of that that you kind the the facade's been removed so when you're watching you know a 12:00 game on a Saturday where all of us are drinking a beer and having fun you know what >> I think if you ask any former college
23:28football player um and there's there's a very interesting overlap also with I would say the veteran community where it's like there is the Hollywood production that is >> American sniper that is any given Sunday where and even me like I want to indulge in the dream that it's like man, if I work hard, I'll get I can become something and make a name for myself and um my body will stay together, my mind will stay together, and uh I'll make a million dollars in the meantime and become a demigod. Um and you know, I mean, even just recently, like a few weeks ago, there was a uh there was an offensive lineman who committed suicide
24:06and they they donated his brain to CTE research. Um >> did he have it?
24:11>> I don't know. I think it's too early to say. test any >> um but I think if you ask any uh and this is the sort of I open my memoir the preface opens with like me in a bar watching the the national championship of Ohio State the year or two after I retired where I'm fully a civilian and like someone didn't recognize me um and you know especially as a big guy you get the like oh you're big like did you play football and it's like >> it's like and they and they and it's and it's just sort of funny um especially there's There's the popular question of like, oh, you didn't want to go pro. As if like as if it's behind the verb want.
24:48As if I didn't want to. As if. But there's just so much between wanting and having. And >> wanting and having.
24:56>> Well, yeah. And for me, ultimately, I even think I got to the place where even, you know, having would have been easy, but I didn't want it anymore. And so the summer of my junior year, um I had always been and and just to talk about like disillusion, I had had my first suicidal thought when I was like seven or eight. Um what what sparked that?
25:17>> I remember being in the bathtub and my I was talking with my mom and this might have been before that, but when I was a kid, I was talking with my mom and I said, you know, oh, 100 years from now, mom, like we're going to be best friends. And I and I I didn't know what death was yet. And then she explained to me what death was. And from the moment I knew what death was, I had like a really macob fascination with what death was.
25:39And I remember even after that, like we went to like Publix, we went to like the supermarket and I got a pack of Chrome Hot Wheels and I asked mom like, "Mom, can I have this?" And she said, "Of course, honey." And then like like death just flashed my mind and I I was like, "I don't even want it anymore." And so like from a very young age, the the topic of death like really gripped my mind. Um it receded. And so yeah, so I saw a psychiatrist at a young age. Um, come high school, life was good. So when there's no stressors, there was no like the foundation was never being tested. And you know, the downside of having a
26:12faulty foundation or a cracked foundation is that it it only becomes worse the more you build on it. And so I had this huge edifice of like I'm Harry Miller, Ohio State football player, uh, potenti going to be a roads finalist, going to yada yada yada. And I got to the summer of my junior year. That's when agents start reaching out to you and that's when they start telling you about how much money you're going to make and like all these things you can be. The plan was play junior year, start be a center um >> declare >> declare all-American um millionaire yada yada yada. And you know, I was just sort of I was having
26:46all these conversations and it was just this thing where again you you uh you just can't want what you want. You can't decide your want. Like the the will the want. Like that's a very like Shopopenharian idea of like the will. Like I did I couldn't will myself further anymore cuz I didn't believe in it. And especially >> you didn't believe in it.
27:06>> I just didn't believe in it any Yeah. So like you know it's it's one thing it's one thing to be hated for what you are. It's one thing to be hated for what you aren't. But it's it's an entirely different thing to be loved for what you aren't. And I couldn't. It just wasn't me. and I was like going down this path and I could feel just like I couldn't maintain appearances um the way that I was and you know so that so that junior year I'm getting I was the strongest I ever was I was the fastest I ever was you know we voted for team captains there were six captains voted I had the seventh most votes I had
27:43a really great off season looking to be a big contributor to the to the program and then but I was like lying to myself so hard and it's And it's crazy how easy it is to deceive yourself cuz I would just get home and I would ignore it. But then like when it was a week away from the first game of the year and I just thought about like being in the stadium and like I just sometimes the stadiums would get so loud that it would make my ears crackle and I just like hated. I didn't want to be in the crowd. But I didn't want all that sound in my head and like I would rather would have died than to than to have to go in there
28:19>> before before we I dig into that because I think it's going to be really important to get to where that got to and like how it >> how it manifest from a thought to getting all the way there. But like >> I've always had a belief that >> there's a price paid for genius, right?
28:39So you look at great people who do great things. Even if we can't always see it, >> there's some sort of price they pay for that. I'm not just talking about like years of hard work. I'm talking about like something in life to >> not to be a pun with your tattoo, but to balance the scales a little bit. And I know you scoffed at me calling you genius earlier, but it's very clear [snorts] >> when I watched your speech of of you talking about this and then read your writing like you and listening to you talk, it's crystal clear to people out there like you have an innate genius about you. You think about things in a
29:14[sighs and gasps] >> what's the word I'm looking for? In an almost very existential way. I don't mean that as as a pun. And I kind of wonder sometimes if because you are seeing things and considering so many things around you that wouldn't even occur to the average person if you wonder if sometimes it's like going down those rabbit holes of thought >> takes your mind away from the presence of what you >> Absolutely. At a very young age at a very young age um that's all it was. It was it was pure contemplation and contemplation without action is just like terror. It's slavery. Like if you you're being subjected to the forces and
29:53you have no power yourself to stand up against it. So you just feel you feel small >> and you feel [clears throat] powerless. You feel when you're presented with the ideas >> and they're like just staring at you and they're laughing at you. Um >> laughing at you. I think that's that's like the language of like I do believe you know in thought like I' I've made a video about this about like thought forms and egregores and egregores are like collective psychic beings >> and you know what you isn't it it's so interesting that you could spend you could do nothing all day but think really hard about
30:29something or be really anxious about something and devote all of your psychic energy to something and you you eat food you consume calories and the energy goes somewhere but it hasn't gone anywhere or in the material plane, there's something when you think about something so hard, you endow it with this sort of this psychic, this mental body.
30:47>> And so an egregor is is when you when a bunch of people get together and think of something and if you if you endow it with too much power >> um it can run away from you. And I think similarly like so like Plato talks about like genius is a gift of madness and actually genius is the Latin word for the Greek demon. And demon isn't like the the the most recent Christianized demon. It can be an agatha demon, a good demon. A demon is just a a lesser god.
31:14Like it's it's a it's not material, but it's not God. It's just this sort of spirit. And um like a mantis and maniac come from that same root of like a man of mind. So genius, a praying mantis, a maniac. Um all of that mania, mania is madness is genius. We're 40 trillion in debt and most of us below the boomer generation don't own a home and don't have a lot of money in the bank account.
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32:37below to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com link in my description below using code julian. Check it out today. And I think you know especially at a young age you know I think I imagine that there's a lot of people who feel this way where you know the passions um whether it's from your from your chest or from your head like Plato would like divide that up but the the thoughts and the passions come upon you and they feel like animals sort of like gnawing at you or pulling at you. And when you're young and when you when you have no personal
33:11spiritual muscle, it it will pull you onto your face like the leash like it'll it'll dislocate your shoulder. It'll dislocate your your mental limbs from your from your body.
33:21And so you're just sort of like reeling in pain. And so at a young age, you know, I had these like really big ideas and I was confronted with these things, but I had none of the spiritual muscle.
33:31I had none of the vigor to defend myself. And so I was very beholden to these things. And I was also a sucker.
33:38Like I'm just such a sucker for um I I I I love freedom. I love liberty. I love sovereignty. I love being what I am. Um and you know, there was just I couldn't tolerate I didn't want to be yelled at anymore. I didn't want people interviewing me anymore. I didn't want people asking me questions anymore. I didn't want to wear a number anymore. I didn't want agents thinking that I was theirs anymore. And so for me, >> product.
34:07>> Absolutely. I I felt I just felt I'd spent 20 years being created into this thing that I was.
34:16>> And um and again, you you asked and it's very interesting. You asked at the beginning like why did I get into football or like did and I said, you know, like the the the fantasy followed the form. Like I remember the first time when I was in high school and for a long time I thought I'm going to get a college scholarship to get an education.
34:34But then there was a coach from Texas A&M who talked about the NFL and I didn't even know that was an option. And then so for me being so young I didn't have the discernment to know what I wanted. So I I wanted what people showed me.
34:46>> And that's a real that's a real brief I think this is this is somebody I've been reading a lot recently. Um Rene Gerard he he has this idea of like the the triangle of desire where there is the subject and the object. You being the subject, the object what you desire. And then there's a third. There's a model.
35:02And it is the the other who if they want it, it'll make you want it. And or if they prohibit you from having it, it'll make you want it more.
35:10>> And that's how you find so many so many times you want something, you want something that you don't even want, but it's because other people want it. And I think that's how people end up like you were talking about whether it's like studios or whether it's like the the people on your arms, the fancy cars or the money. You just want it cuz other people have it. that money, power, fame, and sex.
35:30>> Money. Yeah. Sex, fame. Money, fame, sex, power. Like it's like >> it's almost like I stole that from you.
35:34>> Huh. Right. Um, and I got to this point where I was like looking at it and I've always been a real drama queen. I was joking with with Cooper how like I I would for a long for like two years I'd cry like in every podcast interview because it was also so fresh and so raw that the tears would come out.
35:50>> Well, I think people are going to understand why.
35:53>> Yeah. Right. And that's just the way it was. I thought that was I like I said I saw that I haven't seen podcast interviews but I saw that one speech he gave and like >> that was the the TED talk.
36:02>> Yeah.
36:02>> They chose not to publish that by the way.
36:04>> They chose not to publish that. That's why Yeah. So I actually >> Why did they choose not to publish that?
36:10>> Because of the and like I understand like they it's sensitive material. It's like it talks about suicide. It talks about self harm. That's what I said. Um you know they ended up you know they sold their tickets. They got their money. I spoke at their thing and it was a big rahrh. Ted, what the [ __ ] This is incredible.
36:25>> That's what I said. I appreciate it.
36:27>> Yeah, everyone go. You have it on your Twitter, right?
36:30>> It's on Yeah, it's on my Twitter. It's in my Instagram bio. Um >> Yeah, it's in Dude, >> you know, they we we I complained and then they sent me they sent me like a pamphlet about like how to talk about like mental health and stuff >> and they sent me like a PDF.
36:42>> Um >> Oh, Jesus Christ.
36:44>> But um yeah, [laughter] >> God. But I like I I get, you know, well in, you know, they were put in a hard position. I get it. But >> no, you're being nice. I'll say [ __ ] that. I'm fine. I appreciate it.
36:57>> It It was great. And but but the reason I bring it up is because like >> it is so raw. And that that couldn't have been How long after was it? We're going to get to what the >> conver that was like 12 to 18 months.
37:09>> Yeah, dude. Like >> it was raw. And again the the the point was I was always a very honest like talking about like talking about freedom, liberty, sovereignty. Um the the to be what you are which I think is good like goodness is like is is to pursue your nature and to fulfill your nature and to not be prohibited. And I knew what I wanted to be. I feel like I couldn't be it. And there's a reason there's a reason why every law is written in the negative tense. Like whether it's the Ten Commandments or the the Bill of Rights, Congress shall make no law, thou shalt not kill.
37:44>> Freedom only exists when you can say no.
37:46If you the the freedom to say yes is just is permission. And whoever's giving you permission is your sovereign. That's who rules you. And the only way I felt I got to a point where I could assert myself and assert my freedom. Especially you know when I viewed myself when I when I viewed myself as property of the television of the institution of media and and managers and all these things when I viewed myself as property suicide became the destruction of property became vandalism and I wanted to show my contempt so much that it's like I I'd rather die than do this. Um and so that became a really dangerous headsp space
38:24where and of course thank God now um I've learned that I have a voice and that was actually for a long time in my dreams I had no voice in my dreams I would be yelled at by people and I would have this frog in my throat and I couldn't speak >> just like in real life >> just like in real life so until I wrote the book I couldn't I I didn't speak in my dreams for like years I couldn't speak and I was always being talked to in my dreams and and taunted and then when I wrote it and like reclaimed my voice and that story I developed.
38:53>> Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
38:54>> No, I just I developed the ability to speak and um and again that's why I think you know thank God because now I mean all of this I started sharing stuff online a year ago essentially to the date almost and um you know it would be a shame it's just like I think about how talking about brain fully forming at 25.
39:11I didn't know anything at such a young age and I was so and and I also the reason I was so wrong in my TED talk was because there is nothing I hate more than sort of the infantilization or the cuddling of talk about suicide because talking about madness talking about genius like it made sense to me I wouldn't do something that doesn't make sense and so that was the point of the TED talk was like why did this make sense to me and as you can see when when looking at it through the lens of of destruction of property of retaining sovereignty and then and then of course it starts to make sense in the context
39:45of like um sepu and like ritual suicide and like and choosing to to go out on your own terms >> that was like the like the Japanese disembowment of like the like samurai like bashidto. Yeah.
39:57>> Yeah. Um, and you know, there's actually a uh there's a I think it's Walt Whitman um song of joys. He says like along the lines like along the lines of to struggle against great odds, to face enemies undaunted, to be entirely alone with them, and to find how much one man can stand um to face prison, torture, strife, and popular odium face to face.
40:19Um to mount the scaffold, to charge the muzzles of guns with perfect nonchalants, to be indeed a god. There's this idea that in Yes.
40:30There's this idea that >> um if you if >> you doubted he nailed it.
40:37>> If you charge >> I knew he had it bar for bar word for word.
40:40>> If you charge the muzzles of guns with perfect nonchalants, that's how you become that's how you become a god to be indeed a god. God godship. It's so that's why I think it's so beautiful where lots of animals get killed but only a god would choose to suffer. Um bacteria run away from high temperatures. Um, cattle will run away from wolves, but there is something that only a man can.
41:06There's something divine or even I guess you see you'll see a scared animal defending its child where when you when you charge the muscles of guns with perfect nonchalants. Um, that is godship. That is there's divinity in that. Hey guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge huge help. Thank you.
41:23>> And so I say all of this not not to romanticize or to justify because I do think life is more romantic. I do think life is more justified. Um, but that's where my headsp space was at was, you know, when you feel powerless, that becomes this huge well wellspring of power. And I think anybody listening to this right now who is negotiating with those things, that's probably the great temptation. Um, and you know, there's I I say all of that to to confess that it's a very good argument. Like it's very damning. And that's why, you know, as you've seen my as my TED talk, like um you know, for me, I ended up dragging
42:01a box cutter across my throat cuz like I I just wanted to be done with it. Um and you know, evidently like wasn't able to do the damage necessary to to not be here anymore. What do you think that was that you didn't you didn't I mean obviously like if you wanted if >> I wanted to I think like they say there's that like there's that like I don't know if it's like a you know the the folk tale of like it only takes it's like a eating a baby carrot to bite off your pinky but like your brain won't do it because it's like self harm. So like the neurology can't overcome itself to destroy itself.
42:34>> Um >> I think there was an element of that to it. I mean, I was of course like very scared and and again, it's like it's not like I wanted to. It's not like I was going out of my way to do it. It was I was I wasn't really I was I was reluctant. I I was I was scared. Um and so I wasn't eager by any means. And uh I didn't have the the date circled and scheduled with a birthday cake waiting for me. Um, I was I was reluctant and I and so of course like I didn't I didn't create the force necessary to produce the damage that would have done it. Thank God. Um, well, let's go back to the timeline too
43:14because we we got off that and skip forward for a second. So, it was after >> after the championship game. You were third team all-American, which was supposed to mean something, but you didn't feel like or you third team all Big 10, I'm sorry.
43:29you did you didn't feel like you were a good player and you kind of internalized this whole thing and I guess you're headed into your junior year at this point. Is that correct?
43:37>> Yeah.
43:37>> And this I believe what you said 20 minutes ago was that that was when >> it's not like it was the first time in your life you had that ideation but that was when it started to creep in that like you know what >> I'd rather not be here.
43:50>> Yeah. No, because I mean I mean to to speak very plainly and again I'd like I prefer to speak as plainly as possible because I think it removes any like room for deception or dishonesty, but like I mean I felt kind of like just [ __ ] made. It's like I don't like you've you've spent 21 years your parents have spent this money getting you. You're the agents the agents the coaches like everybody had invested in me. Um >> did you have a good relationship with your parents?
44:15>> Fantastic relationship. Like I love my parents. There was no yeah there was no like um I mean I felt bad but of course then again that's like the sort of like the persuasive demon of suicide is that a a huge obstacle is people love me the the rebuttal to that and I describe you know suicide's like sort of like fighting like a Mortal Kombat bot that like learns your moves and starts to like react to you like like a noob cybot Mortal Kombat like it's a ghost that just learns your best techniques. techqu um and it makes mockeries of them. It just laughs at you. You thought that breathing technique was going to save
44:51your life. You thought that mantra was going to save your life. Like this thing has been here longer than you know. This this this power, this force, this like call of the void. And um you know, you really don't know until you and like Kirkart says that like to learn sort of the grace of God, you have to wrestle in the infinite. and >> to learn the grace of God.
45:12>> That's a paraphrase, but he he talks >> that's a good paraphrase.
45:15>> Yeah, he talk but he talks about you you until you exhaust yourself of your own powers, you will rely on your own powers. And that's why, you know, one of my favorite images is the um the story of Jacob um going up on pineal going up on the mountain. So, Jacob in the Bible, this is in Genesis. [gasps] Jacob is the second born twin to Abraham. Um, no, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob to Isaac. Um, Jacob and Esau. Esau's the Esau's the red one, the firstborn twin.
45:48Jacob comes out second, snatching his ankle, grabbing his ankles as he comes out of the womb. So, he's called the ankle snatcher or the righteous deceiver. He's the one who makes others stumble. And so, he spends his whole life sort of as the second son. And so, he has no birthright. He has no claim to the house to to um the lineage, but he um ends up tricking Esau out of his birthright. Esau tired after a hunt. He he trades Esau a bowl of soup for his birthright. And then Isaac, who's now going blind, Esau's very hairy. So Jacob covers himself in animal furs to resemble his brother's hairy skin um
46:23covers himself in his scent, goes to his blind father, and steals Esau's blessing. And [clears throat] so because he's sort of he he's the righteous deceiver, he deceives his family to earn this blessing. And when they find out he's banished and spends years away from his family and when he comes back, years pass, he comes back and he goes up on this mountain and there waiting for him is the Elohim. And so like a God angel.
46:49Um, and I like to imagine just this sort of like this this aura, the celestial being just sort of like sitting there waiting there smoking a cigarette and Jacob gets up there and they start to wrestle and it says they wrestle all night. Um, and then Jacob and then the angel dislocates Jacob's hip and uh the angel tries to leave but Jacob says like I will not let you go.
47:16The angel says let me go. Jacob says, "I will not let you go until you bless me."
47:19And so you've got this guy fighting on one leg telling God [sighs] to ble I'm not I'm not giving up.
47:27They've wrestled all night. The angel says, "What is your name?" And here I think is a really beautiful image because Jacob, his name means the deceiver, the snatcher, the the the stumbler, the ankle snatcher. And he's had the pride to fight all night. But when confronted and when the angel looks at him in the face and says, "What are you?" He confesses what he is and he says, "I am I am Jacob." And then the angel Elohim says, "From now on, you will no longer be known as Jacob, but as Israel, he who fights with God." And so he he redeems him. That's what the word redeem, redeem. He renames him.
47:59>> And so his name of the deceiver gets changed to he who fights with God. So his his combat with the infinite becomes a um an affectionate name. it becomes a kudos and uh there's an interesting there's also another verse where he says like and Jacob says then what's your name and then the angel says why do you ask my name and just leaves and so there's this it feels very sort of like older brothery where it's like you know who I am and then the angel leaves and then Jacob goes reconciles and that that becomes the the 12 houses of Israel is is his is his lineage um and so just I say all of that to to reference yeah so
48:37that's the I think that's Gustav Duray um one of his etchings Um, >> I love this guy. He's got all the references. It's great.
48:45>> No, it's great. That guy stopped. It's beautiful, right?
48:48>> Um, and just look like you see the struggle in him and then the angels just plain faced in power, the higher ground.
48:56>> Um, >> the art is so good that you can pick that up in one in split second.
49:01>> And so, Jacob walks the rest of his days with a limp. Um, and for me, I had I had a very similar story. So, like to return to the um >> junior season and so yeah, I resolved that like I'd rather die.
49:16>> Did you resent your coaches and the trainers and the people who were a part of this program who were, you know, yelling at you so much and and telling you what to do or >> No. And no, and for the most part, it was just pure love. I mean there's there's cases where um and honestly like you have to operate from forgiveness because >> No, I don't. Um >> you believe the intentions were good >> for the most part. Absolutely. And like even especially coach day coach day his father committed suicide and so he was actually very initiative on he was very initiated on on treating this. Um, I really do think, you know,
49:59talking about egregor and like psychic entities, the every Saturday there is going to be a game with a 100,000 people in the stadium.
50:10You're not stopping that.
50:11>> That's right.
50:12>> It's too big.
50:13>> It's too powerful. You're not You could scream into the midnight sky or like go to the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. you are not stopping ESPN College Game Day from coming to your town and fireworks going off, right? And so you can't like what are you gonna be mad about? Um, and I think maybe I realized this sort of like the futility of what and that's what's crazy is like this this whole saga of me there's always going to be somebody else wearing 76. There's always going to be somebody else wearing the number and whatever. Um and I think you know for a lot of times so like it so I told coach day
50:48um you know I wanted to myself and so I said you know we're about a week away from opening against Minnesota and uh I tell him I I I >> before your junior year >> before my junior year. Yep. Um and again this is the plan is um with swift arms the gods cut short the follys of men.
51:10remember that?
51:11>> I've heard that one before. Yeah, >> that's um I think it's like [ __ ] Sophocles or something. Um >> if it's not, you're fired.
51:17>> I'm fired. Um was Yeah. And I think I think that's Antiggony. Um >> and so >> with Swift Harms. Yeah. So you every everybody has plans. My plan was junior year play all-American, make money, cool professional football player. That was the plan. And so that's that's the plan.
51:37And so I go and talk with coach day and um he's I say, "Can we meet tomorrow?" He says he's probably thinking like, "How are we going to pick up Moscow or how are we going to pick up Chop?" Which are like blitzes or whatever.
51:49>> And I sit down and he's got his game.
51:51He's whatever. He's busy. And honestly, like I kind of probably like ruined his day and I'm like I think about killing every time I go home. I think about myself. Um and he didn't flinch. He sort of, you know, we quickly he had again him being familiar with it. We put the things in place. Um I >> What were those things?
52:08>> Um I started working with sports psychiatry and psychology and we started having we had a you know probably like every other day we were meeting. Um my mom came up for a period and I tried so like we had that >> Did you tell her?
52:24>> Yeah. My mom was actually that was I left that out. My I thought about my first thing was what do I do? Call my mom. I called my mom and I told her and again >> before you met with coach >> before I met with coach day.
52:35>> I asked her what to do and she said yeah meet with coach day. Um >> and he handled it right away.
52:40>> Yeah. But you know he said you know if you feel this way you should probably sit out today and I said like coach I felt this way for a long time. Um the only difference is now you know about it. And so I tried to play I think I practiced for like two more days or maybe it was just that day. Like I just I kept going. But again, it's so weird like you want to talk about disillusionment once you once you sort of like prepare to it's just like now it's like what are someone screams at you and it's just like it's just noise. It's just like this means nothing, bro. Um and so I was out of it and he knew that. So I
53:17ended up I ended up taking I I ended up sitting out and I think at that time in my heart of hearts I knew I was done playing football. Um, >> but he still That's interesting. So, he got you help right away, but he still let you practice.
53:30>> Yes, but I insisted. That's what I'm saying. Like when Yeah. Yeah.
53:33>> Either way, though. That's a little strange.
53:35>> No, I think Well, I think Well, to talk about care and again, this was a huge point with my mom for a long time.
53:42People still thought that like football was my outlet as it had been my entire childhood.
53:47>> So, they think that there's some other symptom. I'm depressed.
53:51>> So, you didn't tell them that. You didn't tell them that. No, I didn't say why. I didn't say why. It was just I want to >> And I think, you know, it's stress it's it's stress. It's the same way where it's like it's stressful. Like I mean, yeah, it's a stressful job. Um but it's not the job itself. It's the it's the things that surround it. And I think and that was why with you know for my mom for a long time um even afterwards it it took a lot of and I didn't and I didn't realize this until we had this sort of like breaking this is also fast forwarding but there came a point where that was a long fall
54:22>> and my my mom and I kept arguing near the end of it where I was like there was this failure to communicate and there came a point where like I I said like I'm not going to come home for Christmas. I was so fed up because we were operating under two entirely different assumptions where I had made up my mind like I can't do this anymore and she kept saying when you feel better we'll get back to playing football. And so she so I was trying to like escape from the mad house and she kept saying like you're going to get better and things are going to continue >> and ultimately you know when I communicated we we eventually had the
54:56realization that you know perhaps this is irreoverable um and that wasn't until after the fact.
55:03So I think everybody sort of was operating under that assumption.
55:06>> How were you doing in school at that time?
55:08>> 4.0 >> still.
55:09>> So the day after I the day after I like cut my throat like I went to class.
55:13That's the gators when we talk about the gators that like go over your face. I was just like I just put that over my throat and just like I went to >> I just continued took my exams. Took >> Was that in the fall when you did >> that was in the fall. Yeah. So that was >> after the conversation with coach day.
55:28>> Yes. So I took some time off. Um and then again we there was the after like 4 weeks there was the talk of like returning to play and but again like I was just so out of it. I was like it was just like in dream world that entire time where it's like nothing felt real.
55:43>> What did you talk about with the psychiatrist?
55:46>> How helpful was that?
55:47>> It was very helpful. I mean I had world class um Candace and Josh were my were my two were my two people. Um, and again, a lot of that, and again, this is the function I serve to a lot of athletes who reach out to me is you just need, and this is why I love Nicaragua, like you want to talk to somebody who doesn't even know what the shape of a football is.
56:11>> Um, cuz you get to the point where it's like everybody, again, Saturday, everything goes down to Saturday. How do you feel? It's about Saturday. Are you okay? Can you walk on that Saturday? Everything is Saturday.
56:29This Saturday, are you good or not?
56:30Saturday. Saturday. Um, and to just talk to people who who it doesn't matter.
56:36That's when you can really start unpacking stuff. Um, because otherwise everything is in preparation. It's it's very adrenal and sympathetic nervous system and it's just action and it's just survival. Um, and you can't really like slow down to process things. And so if a if a thing is broken, it's just pure epinephrine. Um it's just it's just it's just it's beyond you, you know. Um and so yeah, it was extremely helpful.
57:03And then, you know, four weeks pass and I'm like sort of back and ironically I was I was like I returned in the position of being like a backup guard.
57:14Um, I was like in the second strings and I was honestly having so fun just practicing because then I was back to being a kid just playing football without any consequences >> because there's not the pressure of you having to perform on Saturday.
57:25>> I was just like I was just playing ball on a beautiful like that was so that would have been October. I was just playing I was playing football in October in Ohio. Um, leaves are changing. It's 6 pm. I get to try to down block on my on my teammate.
57:40>> What gave out?
57:42>> Is Mike Are we good? Is he >> It's still out.
57:46>> All right, we'll be We'll be right back.
57:48We're going to fix it.
57:50>> All right, we're back. We got the mic fixed now. So, you had been saying like the leaves are changing. You were having fun.
57:55>> Yeah, you're playing ball. Like you're a kid and like um >> it's just now there's like there's no fans, there's no critics, there's no production, it's just it's just football and and that I loved. Um but again the problem had not been solved cuz I I still you know I I had more I had more courage to harm myself and to then to say what was wrong which is like a terrible irony. Um >> did it feel like you almost had a band-aid on a bullet wound and you just couldn't see the wound?
58:26>> Yeah. I mean, that was it was like the the primordial crack that like I had never addressed, you know, and I and I >> and for me, I'd always planned on like playing football, making a lot of money, and then becoming a writer. Like I always wanted the endgame was to create things and and art.
58:40>> You wanted to be a writer all the way back. You're an engineering school, but you want to be a writer.
58:44>> Yeah. I figured I would like do a degree that like I could get a job if I needed to was the plan.
58:49>> So, you didn't love I was going to ask you about that earlier, but I want to get you off the thought. You didn't love engineering. You were just really >> I did love engineering. I love a lot of things. I did love it. I did love it.
58:58And I think engineering really informs my style as well in terms of you know it gave me the procedure. It gave me a way of looking at the world.
59:06>> Um >> in terms of mathematical and theoretical but also very practical. Um and again I think again it's all about it's all about what is practical because these theories and I think that's where a lot of people get like messed up is like in theory um ultimately like my philosophy now is about action. It's about what empowers me, what helps me move and progress and um self-actualize and self- overcome. And so yeah, so I loved engineering and uh it's it's it's sort of shaped how I and I'm very proud like to be to be able to say like mechanical engineering. Um >> that's a nice flex.
59:46>> Yeah, a nice like feather in the cap from the Ohio State University.
59:49>> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
59:56And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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