0:01It wasn't like that self-contained with the citizen body that governed itself.
0:06Um there's no democracy in the mian world. So it's >> good oldfashioned.
0:11>> Right. Right. You know rule.
0:12>> Right. Right. Exactly. And um so when Homer is writing, it's probably for a world in which there are early city states and that's kind of world he understands, >> but he's looking back to a world of kings that he doesn't really understand all that well himself. And so all kinds of fun crossovers between Homer's own political universe and then what he's trying to imagine that was is this a half millennium before he was writing or at least composing.
0:35>> How far back does the ancient does ancient Greece go? Like what year >> like the >> like 3000 >> I guess it depends on when you define the beginnings. So like the Mowans um are around in the early Bronze Age, you know, in 3000 BC there's my own civilization in Cree, but they aren't really Greeks. They aren't speaking Greek language as far as we know anyway.
0:55Um, and uh, we we can't read their script. Linear A, it's still a mystery to us.
1:00>> How do we figure out how to read some?
1:01Like we ended up figuring out linear B.
1:04>> How they even do that?
1:04>> Most often you have something that's in two languages, right? Rosetta Stone where you have, you know, it's both hieroglyphs and demotic and hey, look, Greek, we can read Greek and you go from Greek backward to the other languages and kind of trying to figure out where the correspondences are, >> deductive reasoning, if you will, >> right? Um, but when you don't have that bilingual key, you're forced to just make hypotheses about the language and how the how the script works basically.
1:29Is it a syllibary? Is it an alphabet?
1:31You know, is it some kind of hieroglyphic thing >> and then say, okay, you know, let's just spitball pretty much >> and um like in the case of there was a stone um there were the cartes of the pharaohs of the talamies, you know, the royal titles in that like little uh oval-shaped enclosure. Um and they kind of from that it's like okay this is the king's title you know let's let's kind of compare this uh in the case of um linear B ventress kind of just guessed it was Greek pretty much and that that was the the opening of the the thin end of the wedge let him decipher that for linear A we have no comparable we have
2:07no script that's in two languages um we have only very short texts and so there's not much of a sample to work from and very little to compare with so people are just scratching their heads We just don't know. We don't think >> you think we'll figure it out >> unless something comes to light.
2:21Probably not. I mean, it's not an Induropean language, Minoan. And so it's we have no similar language probably to work from, >> but maybe. I hope so. It'd be a lot of fun.
2:30>> But that was from they would have been in Cree.
2:33>> In Cree. Yes. Um and probably in the third millennium BC.
2:36>> Okay.
2:36>> Um the Masonians come along much later.
2:38Um they don't really coales as a civilization until about 1600 BC, give or take.
2:43>> Do we know how that happened? like how they >> we don't we assume that they were the warrior aristocracy of you know the native warrior aristocracy of Greece southern Greece anyway um who became wealthy through some combination of trade piracy warfare with their richer neighbors the Mowans the Egyptians the people in Asia Minor >> and kind of like the Romans later on that the Romans kind of learned from the Greeks the Minians learned from the Mowans and from their other eastern neighbors um that kind of >> you know jump started them into civilization So at what point does like because you you
3:18mentioned it a few minutes ago in another context about Poseidon and how that was he was recognized across obviously multiple very spread out generations in that example.
3:29>> But at what point does like Greek mythology >> come into being? And and you know actually I was thinking about this today. Some of these things I take for granted. Zeus, Hercules, stuff like that. And yet I was like, damn, I don't even remember the movie Hercules and what the context was and stuff. So, it might be good to take a trip down memory lane and break some of it down if that's all right. But like when did it come into being and who invented it if we even know that?
3:56>> Herododus um the father of history, he writing in the mid 5th century BC, he wrote about the Persian wars >> had a famous quote where he says basically that the Greeks received their gods from Homer and Heid. These are two authors who write in the 8th century BC we think. So >> 300 years before he right and you know they had the gods before this but Homer um by writing this text that becomes foundational to Greek education creates a canonical version of the gods um and it's the version that every piece of Greek literature written after the Iliad which is all Greek literature references in some way. So his idea of Zeus as this
4:34all powerful sky god it already existed from a long time before Homer but everyone pictures Zeus through Homer's text um because it's so fundamental to education you know to how they think about their gods. Uh so in many ways um it's the invention of literature, Greek literature in the early archaic period, the 8th century BC that gives the Greeks their definitive view of the gods and of the myths and they evolve. Of course, the thing about polytheism and especially Greek polytheism is it's not one thing. Um every city has its own idea of the gods, its own stories, its own take on the same pantheon and the
5:11same myths. But when you have a text like the Iliad that everyone knows, you get one version, one Zeus.
5:17>> Yes.
5:17>> Um and so it becomes a point of reference.
5:21>> So I I guess you would say that with Greek literature, above all with the archaic period, that's when we get Oh, thank you. Um that's when we get >> Don't miss anything, bro.
5:31>> Um a you know, you really don't. Um a definitive idea of who the gods are and what they do. M so the question I keep I sometimes I try not to make parallels because history is very different but when we're talking about like the other worldly god you know this is a theme that exists across literally every culture that's that's ever been around and they all have these different ideas and obviously we know some of the mainstream ones today but like >> comparing and contrasting it with Christianity per se >> at the at the heart of Christianity was was a historical figure, Jesus Christ, who was historically executed. Now,
6:12whether or not people ended up buying into the story of what happened with the death and resurrection, that's whether or not they had the faith or not. But there was a clear this happened. This guy existed. Here's what he stood for.
6:22Here's some things he did in his life.
6:24Here's some miracles we also believe he did, believe it or not. But that's we'll write it down. And then over the years, people coalesed around what became the greatest story ever told and related Jesus is like the son of God to a greater God and boom, here we are.
6:40>> With the Greeks, if the initial kind of push comes from an amazing piece of text that Homer wrote, and we don't even really know who Homer was, though, and 300 years later they're hearing about this guy who wrote about these gods and this text about this story that happened 500 years before him. and Zeus is at the top of the chain, but also you got Poseidon and all these different gods and stuff.
7:03>> You don't have at the middle of it, >> I don't really know how else to say this, but some sort of historical mankind relation to it. You know what I mean? You just have an idea and yet everyone in in ancient Greece bought into it. What What do you think was so powerful about it that made them go, "Yes, that's what it is."
7:26Christianity is so different um from what they believed. You know, Christianity is a story of salvation, right? You know, where every human, you know, is saved by the sacrifice of Jesus in some way that that you can live eternally um if you believe these things and you know, we'll, you know, follow this parallel to um an an omnipotent God. Whereas for the Greeks, um the gods just are they have to be respected. Um, they are powers that are greater than mankind and they're not more virtuous than mankind. They're not even models for mankind. They're in a sense worse morally than mankind because there's no
8:03consequences for them. Zeus can run off with any nymph for princess he wants and no one can do anything about it because he's just very very powerful. You don't admire the gods because they're better, because they're, you know, the idea is that for Christians that Jesus is the model, you know, that how he lives, how a Christian wants to live.
8:19>> You don't want to live like Zeus unless you're a sociopath. Um the idea is that Zeus is just more powerful, has to be respected. And so you respect him um for what he is, which is the power that moves the clouds and the weather and the affairs of men. And if you don't respect him, he'll get you, right?
8:36>> Um and so it's just a matter of acknowledging superior power and giving the gods their due. And that means sacrificing above all. The gods don't care in the Greek world what you think.
8:46You know, in the Christian world, we have this idea of guilt, you know, and sin. the idea that that you know God cares about who you are morally and what you've done.
8:53>> Greek gods couldn't care less about that. They care about getting their due, which is above all the smoke of sacrifices and the prayers of mortals.
9:01>> So instead of salvation and hope.
9:05>> Mhm.
9:05>> They traded on fear and >> Well, it is fear, but it's also obligation. So if you if you pray to Zeus, A, he won't smite you. B, he'll make it rain. Um, and so the the idea is literally make it rain. Um, and so the idea is there's >> another make it rain.
9:23>> There is. Yeah. And that too would have done that. That's more Hades. Hades controls wealth. Okay.
9:28>> Um, but anyway, >> but Zeus was, you know, he was he was getting it.
9:30>> He did actually. Actually, he came in a golden reign to one princess.
9:33>> That's right.
9:34>> U, but but anyway, um, to focus again, >> uh, the idea is there's a wonderful Latin expression, uh, do I give so that you will give. And the idea is that you the mortal worshipper give prayers and sacrifices to the gods and they in turn give their blessings. That's it. It's almost a contractual thing.
9:53>> Um so belief doesn't matter. You know all the the upper of the Roman world take for granted for the most part that there are gods. They don't know if the gods care about humans all that much. Um that'd be curious and they don't care at all. But the idea is that it's safest to keep worshiping them because in the past it's always worked. We worship the gods for centuries. They made it rain.
10:12Therefore, we keep worshiping the gods.
10:14>> Ah, so it's more like a res incentive result driven system.
10:18>> Very much so. And that's that's most religions honestly when it comes down to it. Um, you know, it's very the Judeo-Christian thing is just different on sort of a qualitative level.
10:27>> Yeah. I mean, when you think of uh, you know, like in Christianity and Judaism, God and then you look at across the testaments, but let me focus on like the Old Testament here. You know, you have stories like Abraham where he's asking him allegedly to like sacrifice his own son. You know what I mean? Like there's a real >> there's a brutality to it as well.
10:52Whereas Jesus is then again like in human form >> therefore direct more directly relatable to people and he's perfect.
11:02>> Yeah. And there are parallels I guess you know the the at the heart of Christianity is the idea that that God becomes human can suffer as a human and then die you know the ultimate human experience right um and there are things like this like Adonis he's this this Greek hero um who's kind of revered um um for for dying you know he he's killed by the gods and in a way kind of models the human um arc of dying and then being resurrected and kind of a spring vegetation it's this this kind of odd cult but it's not the same thing because you know in in Christianity It's the god, you know, the single god, the
11:34transcendental god, um, who comes down and is, you know, eventually resurrected and is therefore the pattern for all other human lives.
11:41>> Um, in the Greek and Roman world, you know, a there's all kinds of gods and you can kind of pick and choose between them when you worship. You can't ignore the most important ones. Um, but none of them care all that much about you or are trying to model your behavior. And there are some things like the the famous mysteries, we said this last time, the mysteries at Elusus um outside of Athens. Um and that's kind of a salvation thing. The idea is that you know if you see these mysteries, if you partake in the mysteries and see um it models the resurrection, well the the rescue of Pphanany from the underworld
12:11and therefore spring, the returning of vegetation every year that seeing these things, you'll get some kind of hope for the afterlife. Not it's not the same thing as Christianity, but it kind of ties into the same wellspring of human fears and desires, I think. Um, so there there are things like this they call the mystery cults are used to um where it's more personal. It's more about your relationship with a certain god and with a hope for something beyond you know your coming life. But for the most part um it's a very thisworldly religion.
12:43It's about what you get in this world which is above all rain, health, long life, the things you everyone prays for.
12:50And um you know again that hasn't changed so much today but it's very much more just about that.
12:55>> Yes.
12:56>> Uh it's a very public religion too. It's about a community focused. You know people might still rever have like a personal relationship with a given god for example.
13:04>> But what you do for the gods is communal. You come together um and sacrifice a cow and then you eat that meat together. Um and so it's a way of binding a city together as well or community together as well as revering the gods individually. And that's relatable. I think a lot of religions >> very much so. But but I think it's much more in the foreground in Greek Greek religion especially.
13:25>> Got it. Like Got it.
13:27>> So what what did the Greeks you know in this time period 500 400 300? What what was their idea of the afterlife and what happened and where they went?
13:37>> It's based we think again what we know is literature and it's hard to say how well it corresponds what people on the street actually thought. But it does seem that Homer's idea of the afterlife, remember Odysius goes to the mouth of the underworld and you know calls someone forth.
13:52>> It's pretty dreary. Um it's just these for most people, you know, that this shadow or echo of yourself uh ends up in this kind of gloomy world of dust. Um and it's not really you. It's just sort of your reflection. Um it's barely conscious, just kind of floitting around like a bat. Um, and they only become conscious, become able to be engaged in the world of living if they drink blood and therefore kind of get some semblance of their living body back.
14:17>> Um, and so it says sacrifice some sheep and you know put their blood into a trough for the ghost to come drink at it and they become conscious again and able to engage with mortals.
14:27>> So it's not very pleasant honestly. No.
14:29Um, there is the idea the allesian fields right but it's only it seems if you're a hero or something you know.
14:35Exactly. If you're Maximus, >> right? Yes. If you're a maximist, then >> if you wake up cold, you already eat in Elisium.
14:41>> Exactly. Um, but things like the mysteries I mentioned before, um, suggest that the Greece and Romans had an idea, at least in these smaller cults, that there was a more positive afterlife possible if you believed in the right god who would get you in, you know, to one of the happier parts of the afterlife. Um, but it it does seem like there was a widespread idea that after you died, you it was pretty unpleasant.
15:08Either you weren't conscious at all or it was a very dim echo or faint reflection of what your life had been.
15:13>> Did that make people fear death a lot more?
15:16>> You think?
15:17>> Probably like today, people don't tend to dwell on it because there's not much use in it. So, we we had epitaps, right?
15:23Um and they show a range of things from you know a hope for a better life after death but more often than not just kind of resignation you know I was you know now I am not it's like well thanks guys uh that kind of thing and the epicurans um this this helenistic philosophy that emerges around 300 BC um they both deny that there are gods and also there is any kind of mortal afterlife because they believe that the souls which are made of atoms um will dissipate um with the body at death. Um, very, you know, it sounds scientific, it's not really scientific, it's kind of more mumbo jumbo, but anyway, uh, they had this
15:59idea and they preach against the fear of death, you know, so obviously there was things in their preach against um, if they're proitizing about it. Um, Lucriccius, this Roman poet, wrote a very famous epic um, deura which is all about um, against the fear of the gods and the fear of death, kind of acceptance of your place in the in the world, in the universe. So, I mean, again, they're they're us same brains, you know, they have the same fears, but um obviously weren't crippled by it.
16:28Whatever else people like, well, see what happens, you know.
16:31>> Wait, how many approximately how many gods did they have?
16:35>> There's there's 12, usually 12, 12 over 13 Olympian gods. Those the ones who are most important and there's a really we know who they are. a really numberless variety of gods who are foreign to the pantheon, who are minor gods, who are heroes, who are demons, are, you know, kind of subsidiary gods. Uh, and demons is not like our modern idea of a devil, an evil. Demon is just a kind of um a spirit of the air. It can be good, it can be wicked, it can be ambivalent.
17:03It's kind of just like a a minor >> underling of the gods.
17:07>> In Greek, they called it demon.
17:08>> That's where we get it from. It's daimon is the Greek. D A I M O N. Um, and there's all kinds of different ways.
17:14Yeah, there's the Olympian gods.
17:16>> Okay, so we got Zeus, Hera, Aries, Aphrodite, Dionis, Deer. I mean, these are all familiar to a lot of people in pop culture.
17:24>> Heestus, Athena, Hermes. Uh, >> I can't say that. Next one.
17:30>> Well, it's supposed to be Pphanie, but they misspelled it.
17:33>> Okay. Yeah. Whoops. Poseidon, Artemis, Hades, and Apollon.
17:39>> Yeah, it's just Apollo. Yeah. Why' they put an N on the end there?
17:42>> Well, that's the Greek form. You know, Apollo isn't supposed to be. They're being fancy, but still misspelling Pphanie.
17:47>> All right. So, Zeus Zeus Zeus is at the top of the chain here. Who was Hera?
17:53>> His wife. Um, the goddess of marriage and also child birth.
17:56>> Daddy. Look at him.
17:57>> Well, she was, but she was often, you know, she kind of is forced to play in the myths kind of the the role of the resentful wife. Zeus is gallivanting around with some princess or whatever and hero's hunting him down.
18:07>> So, she's like the Carmelo Soprano >> essentially. Yes. Got it.
18:10>> Um um even though you know she had a very important cult of her own, even more important probably before uh the archaic period. But yeah, so she presides as I mentioned before over child birth in >> she had a cult of her own.
18:21>> Yeah. So all the gods when I say cult I mean they receive worship. That's just kind of a way of saying it. They receive worship at their own temples, their own shrines, their own sacrifices.
18:30>> Um and there are heroes worshiped independently of Zeus because you know she presides over these very important things. Again um you know birth is very important. She's a subsidiary goddess of that and marriage.
18:40>> So she kind of female goddesses besides um Artemis and Athena are almost always in the domestic sphere, the sphere of the house as Greek women were. Greek women kind of had a very cloistered existence in Athens especially. They weren't really encouraged to live a public life of any kind. And so their role is tied to the family to the household and so are the gods that preside over those parts of life.
19:04>> So she was the wife of Zeus.
19:06>> Wife of Zeus. It's a tough role. Okay.
19:08Yeah.
19:08>> All right. And then Aries, he's kind of he looks like he's ready to rock.
19:11>> He is ready to rock. He's the war god.
19:13Now, unlike the Romans, his counterpart in the ro the Romans is Mars. The Romans loved Mars. He was a very important god for them because the Romans are very militaristic.
19:21>> The Greece did not like Aries very much.
19:22He had very few cults. Um because he's in the Iliad, he's kind of a sociopath.
19:27He kind of he's he's like the spirit of berserker warfare.
19:30>> That's how I like my soldiers though.
19:32You know what I mean? We got to get in there and kill >> to a point. but he just like shows up as like you a maniac like you know spattering gore everywhere you know stabbing everyone. Um whereas Athena is the goddess of strategy. So she's a much more palatable war god.
19:46>> Oh I see I see the the propaganda the women are are thinking clearer than the guys. I got it.
19:54>> In the case of Aries it's correct. He's a maniac. Um >> they always want up us the women.
19:59>> Well you know then divine pantheon his last last say. Um and uh >> so he didn't have a lot of followers though.
20:06>> Not in ancient Greece. No. Uh but but his Roman counterpart Mars is much better because the Romans kind of made a cult of Mars. Um you know they worshiped Mars much more publicly than the Greek worship Aries.
20:15>> Right. Now Dionis, >> the fun god.
20:18>> Yes.
20:18>> He's the fun god.
20:19>> Yeah. He's Bacas. He's the wine god. The the god of wine and realry. And it's not just parties, you know, that because wine is more than that. There's kind of a mystical side to it. um the god in a more kind of general sense of kind of losing control, divine ecstasy uh standing outside oneself. Um so there there's a wonderful play by Uripides called the Bakkeye which is about him coming into Greece for the first time Dianisis. He's the the son in myth um of a Thean princess um who so Zeus got it on with a princess named Semile um and then Hera tricked this princess into asking to see Zeus in all of his divine
20:54glory. Um, this is fatal for mortals, but she doesn't know this. So, she does this. She's struck by lightning, obliterated, but Zeus saves from her smoldering corpse, uh, the unborn, his unborn son, Dianisis.
21:07>> Um, and sews the baby into his thigh somehow or other. Um, the baby pops out of his thigh a little bit later as Dianisis. Everyone's happy. He's raised in India for some reason.
21:16>> In India, what the is going on?
21:18>> I don't know. Well, the idea was that that vine came from India. It came from outside the Greek world, the grape vine.
21:22And so in the myths he comes from the east with this entourage of followers bringing wine for the first time. So there's this myth about a guy who tries wine and thinks he's been poisoned and like you know kills somebody. Uh but it's actually mythologizing probably the invention of viticulture of of vine growing.
21:39>> Anyway, so he he's you know he's the good time god but but it's not always a good time because there's a dark side to losing control. And in in the Bakkey, for example, when the king of thieves refuses to accept his worship, um he has the king torn apart by his mother and sister um in divine ecstasy. They think he's an animal.
21:58>> Dianisis does.
21:59>> Yeah. Not always so fun.
22:01>> When they write about this, are they talking about because the way you describe it like he came into town or whatever, I'm picturing a human, but we're talking about gods here.
22:09>> He's in human form in this >> in human. So he's in human form, too.
22:12>> The Greek gods, the Greeks are kind of unusual in the near east. picturing their gods always as oh sorry always as humans.
22:20>> Um you know the Egyptian gods are half animal um and often they are anyway. Um but for the Greeks um they kind of fetishize the human form >> and the male form above all from a very early very early period. And so when they begin showing their gods and talking about their gods in literature and in art um they say they see them and they describe them as human. And u they can turn themselves in other things. you know, if you're Zeus, you become, you know, a bull or a shower of gold, whatever, if you want to get it on with somebody. But in general, um, you appear as a perfect human, you know, as sort of
22:52a, you know, the human ideal.
22:55>> All right. De meter.
22:56>> Deer doesn't have much of a interesting cult, unfortunately. She's the grain goddess, the guy. So, she's a very important role, the goddess of the harvest.
23:04>> And she's she's series, hence cereal, um, for the Romans. Kind of fun.
23:08>> No kidding. Now, we put all that processed food in.
23:10>> Exactly. Yeah. slap in the face.
23:12>> But before all the gluten, there was deer, right?
23:14>> Um and uh she's most famous for the myth with Pphanie. She she's the mother of Pphanie.
23:19>> And when Praphanany is stolen away by Hades to the underworld, she mourns and won't let any grain grow worldwide. Um and that's the beginning of winter is the idea. Um that, you know, eventually her daughter comes back. She's forced to stay in the underworld for six months.
23:32It's a whole thing. And when she's mourning for her daughter, that's the end of the growing season. That's winter. Um, so she does, you know, have a very important role in the whole setting of the seasons, but she isn't very many myths besides that. She's not really worshiped in her own right, um, in the way the other gods are very often.
23:49>> And then what about Hermes? I said Hermes.
23:52>> Hermes like like the bags, right? Um, he's the messenger god. He's Mercury.
23:57Um, and so he's kind of a fun god. You know, he zips around and delivers messages. He has the kaducus, the wine, you know, the the the the famous um it's like a wand with snakes twined around it. That that's the the wand of the messenger.
24:09>> So, what would they do? Offer up a mailbox for him? What's the >> pretty much right? Um yeah, he's uh you know, he has some fun with like him and like Dian Isis, you know, and he's uh kind of a culture god as well, but he's kind of a less important god than some of the others in the Olympian pantheon.
24:26>> Yeah. The one you always hear about after Zeus is Poseidon, >> god of the sea. Yeah, the god of the sea.
24:32>> And also earthquakes. Kind of fun because >> also I didn't know that >> they the thunder of waves crashing into the earth makes the ground shake, right?
24:39They kind of connected that with Poseidon.
24:41>> Did they know like all the way back then? Did they understand what an earthquake was?
24:46>> They thought it was caused for the most part by uh currents of air moving through under moving underground. They thought they were they thought the earth was hollow or that they were like tunnels deep underground and that water and air moved through them and it caused the land above to shift as they thought earthquakes were.
25:01>> That's actually like pretty creative.
25:02>> It is. They didn't understand like plate tectonics or anything, but they understood that something was going on that it wasn't just like a supernatural thing.
25:09>> And what was at at what point did a god I always get them mixed up in order, but you have Plato and Aristotle. Who came first?
25:17>> Plato.
25:18>> Plato.
25:19So what what years did he live?
25:22>> Um I think the dates they usually give are 4:30 to 350.
25:27>> Okay. So remember after this is like getting >> Yes. Yes.
25:31>> mainstreamed.
25:32>> Yes. Did I get that right?
25:33>> Of course.
25:34>> 4:30.
25:36I was kind of there. I was a little off on his his death, but anyway. Um >> uh yeah. So he's um again the famous people of Socrates, right? And he's kind of from the golden age of Athens. um one of the great authors, one of the great philosophers in Greek history. He's a very very gifted author.
25:50>> So it's Socrates, Plato, Aristotle. Yes, >> that's the big three.
25:53>> Got it.
25:54>> Um and Socrates doesn't write anything, you know, he's kind of a hang out in the agar, doesn't have shoes on, doesn't really bathe very often. He's kind of a interesting guy.
26:03>> Yeah, he he he's OG. Um but um Plato is a very cultivated aristocratic youth who take admires um ethical questioning of Socrates and writes down what he says in this series of dialogues. It's kind of imagined like a dramatic um you know conversations between um you know one several characters that allow him to kind of flexibly discuss different sides of an issue >> um like what is virtue in all kinds of ways. What is piety? Um and it kind of sets the tone for the west the rest of western philosophy in a lot of ways.
26:37It's amazing that we still >> yeah I mean obviously we don't think a lot of things that he thought like the theory of forms whatever else but the kind of questions he asked still matter to us >> um and Aristotle has a much almost an even broader um series of inquiries where he goes natural science for example you know almost the inventor of biology in some ways um he's the guy who kind of systematizes what earthquakes I mentioned before the idea that earthquakes are caused he's the one who kind of makes it mainstream >> how did he how did Did he come up with that? Like did he did he write his method to
27:11>> Well, Greek philosophy and science in particular often combines theoretical brilliance with a total aversion to experiment. And so then they have all of these wonderful ideas backed by no empirical evidence whatsoever.
27:25Sounds good.
27:25>> It sounds really convincing. It's like, okay, we're good. Um they don't really have the the tools, right? They don't have, you know, the instruments they can use to, you know, microscope or to measure things easily. Um but Aristotle takes observations you know he he lives for a long time by the sea for example and he collects you know things from tide pools and examines them dissects them um and his observations become part of his you know what what he writes about his bi biological treatises so there is observation but it's just not systematic um and uh like the idea of atoms you know which comes through
27:57democratist comes in epicurans I mentioned before you they can't see atoms they have no idea what makes up matter >> but they came up with >> but they have the idea there could be this, you know, unsplittable particle.
28:07It's automous means unsplitable. Um, that would be the basis of all things.
28:10They don't know what it'd be like, but it's an interesting idea and they kind of run with it.
28:14>> It's an amazing idea.
28:15>> I mean, it ended up being correct in a sense anyway. Um, >> but uh, >> even theorize that again without any form of experimentation ability to do it.
28:25>> Unbelievable.
28:26>> It is um, and it makes it even though we don't, you know, it's science that's been superseded in all kinds of ways. I mean, completely superseded, but it's still interesting as a structure of thought, right? You know, kind of seeing how it's internally consistent, how they're thinking and discussing these things.
28:40>> Yeah. It's killing me right now cuz while you're talking about this, like the lack of experimentation, everything.
28:45What my closest friend from all my life is is Greek. So, he's always talking about Greeks invented everything.
28:50There's nothing Greeks didn't invent. But I had I had Nico on episode 51 back in the day. And I remember he told me the story like, "Yeah, we invented buoyancy." And it was one of those three. It was Aristotle, Plato, >> or Socrates. And it had something to do with >> it's Archimedes, I think.
29:07>> Damn it. All right. So, it's the fourth one. What happened there again?
29:10>> Uh, so the idea is um >> he's putting some crowns into a pool of water if I remember correctly. And he discovers that a crown made of of gold, I think, displaces one displaces more water than one made of uh lesser metal.
29:24Um, and the idea is that it's um kind of thing about how how mass works and or density rather. Um, anyway, this is the Eureka story. That's where he goes.
29:34Yeah. Yeah. Eureka. And he runs out naked or whatever. This whole thing. I'm trying to remember. A crown of wood maybe. Anyway, so I'm Yeah, it was like a crown of wood and a crown of metal. Am I remembering this right?
29:44>> Yeah. Can we Google that, De?
29:45>> Yeah. This is I don't remember this either cuz this is you know >> Arimedes Eureka story describes his discovery of the principle of displacement while bathing realizing the volume of water displace equal to his submerged body's volume which helped solve King Hyro's problem of determining if a golden crown that's right that's what it was pure or alloyed with silver overjoyed he supposedly ran naked through Syracuse shouting Eureka I have which means I have found it proving the crown >> was fraudulent because its larger due to less dense silver displays more water than the equivalent mass of pure
30:20gold.
30:20>> Okay. So, I guess more or less remembered what it was. I think I remember what it was. But yeah, so because hero is the the tyrant of Syracuse um and probably a relative actually of Archimedes, we think >> and he go ahead. I'm sorry. I >> He's trying to figure out he was given two crowns of one was actually base metal. You know, it had an alloy. It wasn't just all gold, but Right. Yeah.
30:39He figured out that it displace more water, the gold. Therefore, it was like >> spotted a fraud.
30:43>> Exactly. Right. Oh, that's hilarious.
30:45>> But during this time period, like in the 3, four, 500 BCs, what was daily life like in, >> let's just keep it simple, in Athens, you know, what kind of population do we have there? What's the class structure like? They're slaves, I assume. Who are they?
31:01>> So, in classical Athens, um, you it's much smaller than Rome. Probably something like, let's say, 30 or 40,000 people in the city. We really don't know. Um, and there's a very large slave population. Um, again, numbers we can't be sure of. Um, we get some very large numbers from some Hellenistic authors that probably aren't correct, but figure maybe a third of the population might be enslaved. Quite a few. And they're coming from the north for the most part from what's now like u Bulgaria or Ukraine. Uh, they're non- Greek slaves.
31:31Um, there's a famous uh a band called they're Cyians um from what's Ukraine now. Cyian archers. They kind of keep order. They're like public policemen.
31:39Um so in the Greek world you know how you experienced Athens depended of course on who you were how rich you were um you know it's a democratic city um between the beginning of the you know the 500 the kleines in 507 BC um and uh about 322 BC and um in this sense that if you're a citizen if you're a male citizen you know you have a say in how the city is run you will meet in the assembly a few times every month um and vote um by acclamation on going to war, you know, on new measures, on new laws, for example. So, it's a direct democracy. You're involved in the running of things. But if you are not u
32:17an Athenian male citizen, you have no say. If you're a woman, for example, you're out of politics. You're actually almost cloistered. You're not >> you're not supposed to be out in the public very often. Um there's a there's a they call it a woman's quarters, a good icon in many Greek city Greek houses, the upper story. We remain out of sight um because it's not decent to be seen in public. Um, if you're lower class, you don't have to worry about this. But if you're an aris aristocratic Athenian lady, you are essentially confined to your house, your friend's houses. Um, it's the men who live in
32:46public, um, who make politics.
32:49>> Um, we think women might have been allowed to attend the theater, but we don't really know.
32:54>> Um, and of course there are lots of slaves. Um, it's a very public society.
33:00So the Agura, the the main square where Socrates hang out, shoeless, and you know, everyone's kind of uh buying and selling. Um that's the heart of the city. Um and it's very much a face toface society. Everyone knows everybody else even though it's a pretty goodized place. So like, you know, Socrates and his dialogues often will see somebody like hang out in the agura. Oh, hey, you know, come on over here, you know, Kyroman or whatever. Um or go to a party, a symposium. Mhm.
33:25>> That's another good word, I guess, that uh the elite elite men will have these pretty much debauched wine drinking fests um after dinner um in their houses. These are symposiums. Um Oh, yes. This is um the best preserved temple. Um it's it's in the Agura and it's much better preserved in the Parthonon actually.
33:43>> Wow. What? So >> um it's it's a little >> How large are those columns?
33:48>> Uh they're about uh I think about 25 ft tall if I remember correct. And and what time like 500ish BC maybe?
33:56>> That temple's from about I think 440 BC.
33:58>> Wow.
33:58>> It became a church layer. That's why it was preserved so well.
34:01>> Um if temples didn't become churches, they were often just pulled apart for their building material.
34:06>> That's a sin.
34:07>> The parthonon was famously blown up. It was kind of a it was being used to store gunpowder in 1687. And the Venetians were fighting the Ottomans. They lobbed a bomb under over under the roof and the whole thing blew skyhigh.
34:18>> The Ottomans, man.
34:20>> Yeah. Yeah, it's it's always the Ottomans, isn't it?
34:22>> It's always the Ottomans. That's why we forget you in history. I'm just kidding.
34:26>> Poor guys.
34:27>> But um where was I going? Oh, yeah. A life in Athens. Um yeah, it's kind of like Renaissance Florence. You know, we wonder how a relatively small city produced so much cultural brilliance in a few generations. And there are different theories for this. It was a rich city. People didn't have to work all that much because they had an empire.
34:45>> They still don't work today.
34:46>> That's true. Right. Yeah. But now I complain about it. Um they u you know had empire pumping in money. They had all these slaves doing a lot of the menial work for them. So they could devote time to things like politics and you know attending the theater. Uh a lot of intellectuals came from all over Greece because it was known to be a rich society and a free society. Um and they had you know this democracy and pretty enlightened leadership um under Pericles especially that this statesman um who rules well who presides in the mid-th century um over the democracy. Um, so it's kind of a lot of things happen at
35:18once. The things come together for Athens and it, you know, the results are Greek culture really as we think of it in a lot of ways.
35:25>> And then when, like you were saying earlier, when the Romans eventually like came in, they had a lot of respect for this culture and everything and just kind of built within it rather than acting like the conquering. We're stamping our on all this stuff.
35:39>> Yeah. It became Athens became a university city essentially. So, it was the the height of fashion for a Roman gentleman to spend a year or two in Athens as a young man, uh, finishing his philosophy. You know, he'd go attend, you know, a rhetorical school or something.
35:52>> Oh, that's cool.
35:53>> Hang out, learn, and perfect his Greek.
35:55>> But, um, yeah. Yeah, the Romans always regarded Greek culture as a close counterpart of their own.
36:01>> Now, what years approximately were like Leonitis and the Spartans wreaking havoc on our timeline?
36:08>> So, so the thermopoly is is in 480 BC.
36:11Um that that's the year when Xerxes with his giant army invades Greece >> and Thermopoly is the stand of the Spartans and other Greece that no one really talks about with the Spartans um in this narrow path to prevent Xerxes from coming south.
36:25>> Um they're betrayed famously. There's a path that goes around, you know, Thermopoly and so they're they're flanked and destroyed. Um and they they become a legend because they refuse to retreat, right? They fight to the bitter end. and his 300 Spartans can become this kind of railing cry that the Greeks you refer to again and again as they defeat this the Persians and then kind of clean this cultural memory for many centuries thereafter.
36:49>> Um so yeah, he's the beginning of the fifth century BC. The United >> and who were the Spartans like? What was their what was their power structure like in relation to all of ancient Greece itself?
37:02The Spartans um actual city of Sparta is pretty small and the Spartans never really have a large citizen body. Um at the time of thermopoly they may have had let's say eight or nine thousand citizen warriors. Um but that was it. Um and they were supported by a massive base of we call them peroy. They were like merchants um who kind of lived outside the Spartan system and hellets slaves.
37:24Uh they were surfs. Every Spartan warrior owned an estate that was worked by a given number of slaves. these hellets and they provided all the the grain they needed to keep their society going. Um that gave the Spartan warriors unlimited free time to in theory train basically for war. Uh they probably weren't quite the military camp that we think of them now. A lot of more recent scholarship in Sparta suggest they're kind of more like other Greeks than we tend to imagine, but it was a weird city in all kinds of ways and that it was almost like um it was very communal. So all adult Spartans um ate together in
37:58these mess halls like barracks pretty much. Um they spent all their time there as well. Um it was a communal society and they spent all their time also in theory their free time. You know a lot of it was spent at the gymnasium training for war exercising. Um and so it was a place in which public duty was placed above um other things. You know even family structure in a lot of ways and that was weird. The other Greeks they weren't very good warriors. They're very successful warriors, but they weren't like the supermen that we see with the eight packs, you know, in 300.
38:28>> No, they weren't.
38:28>> I mean, they were pretty, you know, they were probably very effective, but um >> they won some good battles.
38:33>> They won some good battles. Um and actually, thermopoly is not the most impressive battle. Um it was the next year at Platilla in 479 where all the Spartans came out and defeated the core of the Persian army. That's the one that would really be the impressive battle, but we don't know much about it because we have Herodus' account of it pretty much. And it's >> how many on how many was that? I mean, it was a coalition in the Greek side. I think it was something like seven or 8 thousand Spartans, you know, pretty much their whole citizen body >> um uh against and there were uh more Greeks um probably maybe 20 or 30,000
39:06Greeks in total. It was a big battle.
39:07>> Oh wow.
39:07>> Um against probably a similar number of Persians, maybe 50,000 Persians. That was the core of the Persian army.
39:13>> Um at that point, Xerxes had retreated.
39:15He left one of his generals, Mardonius, in control and he kind of um had quite a few of the elite Persian units with him.
39:22>> But yeah, so it was a very different society from Athens and of and the Athenians and the Spartans both knew this. They would contrast themselves against the other. So Athens is the open society that the democracy uh Sparta is the closed society. They don't want foreigners. They don't want outsiders.
39:37And it's an oligarchy. They have two kings kind of eccentrically. There are two different royal families. There's always one king from each royal family.
39:44and the kings lead the troops into battle. Uh there's also uh a council of elders, the Gerusa, and there are 28 of these guys. The kings and the garia together kind of make most important decisions. And then there's a council of all an assembly of all the Spartan citizens who approve things. So it's like Athens, >> they had a real tiered layered system.
40:04>> It was you know kings, geria, and then all the citizens. And then below that pyramid is the hellets who have no rights. um and the perio koi who kind of are outside the system. So it's um the Spartans suffer later on in history, classical history from having fewer and fewer men. Um you know by 100 within a hundred years of the Persian wars, there's only a thousand Spartans, a thousand Spartan warriors.
40:27>> And even though they're very well trained and very efficient, um it's only a thousand guys.
40:31>> Yeah.
40:31>> And there's a famous battle a place called Lucra where about half of all the Spartans then active Spartan citizens are killed um by the thie general. It's a catastrophe of Sparta. A thie in general. A thieves is a city just north of Athens. And they had about a 20-year period where they were in the most important city in Greece. And a very innovative general called a Pamandis who defeated the Spartans. He figured out how to defeat the >> Yeah. Why were they fighting each other?
40:55Greek on Greek crime.
40:56>> Oh, it was constant. Uh the Greeks were always fighting each other because, you know, they're these little jealous citystates. You know, they're not very big, but they >> are fighting constant skirmishes. you know, border wars, wars over, you know, customs duties, wars over everything you can imagine.
41:12>> Most of these are pretty small scale wars, but the Pelpeneisian war, which happens in Sparta, last a whole generation pretty much.
41:18>> When was that?
41:19>> Uh, 431 to 404 BC. Um, and uh, this conflict, you know, the Spartans win eventually, but only with Persian money.
41:27They get money from the great enemy, from the great king.
41:30>> They went around to the >> Yeah, that they they weren't with the devil.
41:33>> They weren't too proud. They took money from the Persians, built their own fleet, um, and then defeat the Athenian navy with >> Now, in exchange, they took money from the Persians. What' they have to give them?
41:43>> Well, the Persians wanted instability because it allowed the Persians to take control of the Asian Greeks. Um, and they didn't want any one power to be too, you know, too important.
41:52>> That was the original Twitter algorithm.
41:54Destroy the enemy from within.
41:56>> There we go. Yeah.
41:57>> Give money to the Spartans. Now they give money to the algorithm with a bunch of dudes in Bot Farm. The great king had a fantastic media coordinator just you know the guy like in 300 with like like the rings over that guy with like an iPhone.
42:09>> Yes. With an iPhone. You you ever see like the memes of the dude with like 700 iPhones just >> Exactly. Yeah. Right. Click farm. Yeah.
42:17>> Like yo the Pelpeneisian.
42:20Oh my god.
42:20>> My lord at this time.
42:24>> Um >> now you said that so there what was the area where they would all gather like the meshaul again? What was that called in Sparta? It's called the the the sica is the the words the barracks where that they they eat together.
42:35>> So we have you know we I assume have some archaeological findings of this today.
42:41>> We really don't actually. It was all very primitive. You know in Athens they have these impressive marble buildings the parthonon most famously. But in Sparta it was all there wasn't even they didn't have walls even. Um it was just it was five villages on little low hills. They were all built of like mud brick and wood. M and so we never found actually many remains from classical Sparta. We have remains from the Roman city that you know was built much later on in the same site but uh we have almost nothing from the classical era.
43:08>> I feel like you're going to ruin my life here but does that mean there was not a giant pit where he said this is spotter and kick people in it to die.
43:16>> It is my sad duty to inform you there was no giant pit.
43:18>> Damn it.
43:19>> I know.
43:20>> Such a good plot point.
43:21>> Yeah. I mean it really the whole movie revolves around the pit. But the silent >> I love that pit.
43:25>> The pit's great. I mean, it's awesome.
43:27It's quick.
43:27>> Yeah. I mean, it's a little a little much. I mean, it's huge, right? You probably don't need a pit that big in the middle of your city. But >> yeah, but it looks good on camera.
43:33>> Looks really good on camera. Yes.
43:34>> Um, no, no pit. I mean, if it was >> possible, though.
43:37>> Maybe. You know what? I bet you we haven't found it yet. Let's just say that. Yeah. Maybe, you know, it was so important that, uh, you know, it was hidden later on.
43:45>> Or maybe the pit was actually a cliff.
43:48>> Oh, okay. There we go. Yeah. And they just >> thinking outside the box. They adjusted it for Gerard Butler so that >> he didn't have to climb, you know, he keep his spray tan on, right?
43:58>> That's right.
43:59>> Um, >> yeah.
44:00>> I mean, it was famously, you know, in according to Plutarch anyway, the Spartans would, you know, cast deformed or weak children off a cliff. You if they didn't >> Oh, that's not nice.
44:09>> It's not nice. It's actually much more common in the ancient world than you might want to think. Um, >> yeah, >> more often they would actually expose the children. They would, you know, if they didn't want a kid or if the kid was weak, they would leave it outside their door or on a dung heap and they wouldn't they'd be picked up by slave traders most often. So the kid would be raised as a slave, wouldn't die, >> but uh so it's kind of a not a very tender mercy, but >> it's horrible.
44:30>> But anyway, yeah. So the pit >> maybe.
44:32>> Okay.
44:34>> But next to the mess you said was the gymnasium where they would train.
44:37>> Did you know like what a Spartan workout was?
44:40>> Probably the same as other other Greek workouts, you know. So Greeks um you know it's pretty simple actually that they would run back and forth. You they had a running track. Um so you a stadium a stadon is is a measurement in the Greek world. It's about 200 yards give or take.
44:53>> Um they would um wrestle and box. Uh those are two things they did. They would also they would lift weights. They had free weights. Um just rocks pretty much. But they had them.
45:02>> They might have liked the wrestling a little too much. I heard some stories about Sparta. I'm just saying.
45:06>> Oh yeah. They they were very much into that. But um they would throw the discus uh throw the javelin. Um other you see like the Olympic like decathlon that kind of stuff was >> that was originating. Wow.
45:17>> Yeah. That's all kind of modern evolutions of classical sports.
45:21>> Now that it is true though that they did like make love before battle.
45:26>> Um >> effectively.
45:27>> I mean so straight face.
45:31>> Yeah. Yeah. So we call it you know this idea of of pet harassing.
45:34>> I'm just saying.
45:35>> Yeah. I mean it's Yeah. It's kind of it's decorous. Um you know so pedarasti boy loving um there was we assume there was pretty much ritualized um homosexuality among the boys living in these these barracks like so a somewhat older boy his late teens say would have as this lover somewhat younger boy like his early teens and um be kind of like a bond you'd have through life. It wouldn't be sexual when it was not seen as okay if you're a mature man um to be on the receiving end of such things. it could be on the uh delivering end. Um and um we don't need to get into this too much but anyway so
46:09there was yes a lot of pedarasti in Sparta but not before battle it wasn't like okay guys let's stop it's time you know when someone puts on like EDM or something they go for it but but what what they would do however which is almost as good um they would stop right before battle and they they would they would march up in perfect order which is terrifying most Greeks are militias remember yes you know they aren't trained they're kind of you know the guys you know staggering around you know they're not marching in you know in time the Spartans are trained train. They're professionals. So, they march in an
46:38order. They perform a sacrifice before a battle very often. And then they'll stop and often comb their hair, make sure they look good before battle. They have long flowing hair. So, it's kind of a flex, too. It's like, we're not scared of you. We're to stay here and do a hard combing.
46:52>> They put like olive oil in their hair and stuff, too.
46:55>> They would rub themselves with olive oil. Yeah. Um, you know, it's to glisten and whatnot. And they also clean. That's how they clean themselves. They wouldn't shower. They would rub oil on themselves. There's a struggle, this kind of a scraping stick to, you know, uh, scrape off all the dirt with the olive oil.
47:08>> With olive oil. I mean, I love olive oil, but I feel like >> you would be kind of sticky a lot, especially after, you know, the EDM, whatever. But, uh, but but yeah, so it's um >> it's an interesting place, the Spartans.
47:20Yeah, there it is.
47:20>> Yeah, there it is. Scraping >> um >> that looks uh >> it wouldn't have been comfortable. No, like in the Roman bath, you scrape down, you know, same sort of deal where they would rub you down with oil and scrape you. Maybe you come to like it. I don't know, but >> sounds like a diddy party. You probably be some pretty deep exfoliation, you know.
47:39>> Saying someone check on Fort Dicks, >> whatever that was down there. Anyway, >> yes, >> interesting interesting history right there. But you I think you and I were talking about this off camera before we got on or maybe we were going into it right when we got on camera at the very beginning. But as you were saying, you even with the Alexander tour, like you spent a lot of time in Turkey, too, cuz there's a ton of history related to to Greeks and Romans there. And I've had a several guys on the podcast.
48:09>> I just recently had Hugh Newman on who spends a ton of time in Turkey. All these different sites we're uncovering that are unrelated to this that that are far older. But the history in Turkey basically is like unbelievable across the generations. But what are some of the most ignored, you know, ancient Rome or ancient Greek relics or sites or really important places and historical pieces of evidence that exist in Turkey that you wish more people talked about?
48:37>> Sure. The thing is that in Turkey, as in most places, the the tourist itinerary is not very creative. People go to see a few cities and that's it. So they go to see Ephesus, for example. They go to see Bodum. They go to see Nemro Dog. Um, they don't really go anywhere else.
48:53There are literally hundreds of Roman cities scattered around Turkey. And my favorite are the ones where it's not been excavated. Often you just kind of go there and it's as it was 2,000 years ago. Um, you kind of commune with the past. There's a spot near Antalya, which is in the southern coast of Turkey called Termesus, for example. It's high in the mountains, and uh, it was abandoned, we think, in probably late antiquity sometime. never reinhabited.
49:18And you see it as they left it pretty much just, you know, all of the the Agura, you the buildings around it, these collapsed houses. It was Roman, but it was in the Greek part, so it was still called Nagura. Um, and all of these tombs, thousands and thousands of sarcophagi on the hills all around Termesus.
49:33>> Um, there's a theater right there, TSUS.
49:35And these kind of limestone crags all around it.
49:39>> Um, yeah, that's a favorite. Um, really, really cool place, >> dude.
49:44That's like got Machu Picchu vibes.
49:47>> It does, doesn't it? Yeah. All the mountains in the background. I always like places like that.
49:51>> Do you ever like go to a spot like that and just sit in silence and feel the ghosts?
49:55>> Oh, yeah. And that's half the pleasure, right? You know, that just go there and being totally alone in a place like that. And I have been at Termesus a couple times. Um, and there's just no one there besides you.
50:05>> Oh, is that an aerial shot over there, De? That's amazing. Right there. What?
50:10>> Of the theater, maybe? Yeah. Um yeah, that's the >> and walk. I did a video on this actually once on Termesus um on my my travel channel which is called um sneak roots to the past.
50:21>> But you have a travel channel.
50:23>> I do. Yeah. Yeah. I have the main channel Tolden Stone and I have this scenic roots channel which is kind of all these random sites I've been to over the years >> which so we'll put that one down there as well. But everyone make sure you're subscribed to Told and Stone if you're not which we can collab this too. So they can they can literally click. You guys can literally click next to my name on this video. You'll see Tolden Stone.
50:42Go subscribe. Your videos are amazing, bro.
50:44>> Yeah, please do. Thank you.
50:46>> That's So how long do you think something like that took to build >> the theater? I mean, it's >> it's built in like a cliffside.
50:52>> Well, we know that the coliseum, for example, was probably built in about 7 years, give or take.
50:57>> That's unreal.
50:58>> Which is nuts.
50:58>> That's unreal.
50:59>> Um, but this is a much smaller city, obviously, and they it's probably built over the course of a generation, I would guess. M >> and it's elaborated. So I I forget I think that's a second century AD theater at Termesis. Um often of some rich guy um who will say hey I want people to remember me as a friend of this city. I will give you x amount of money to build a theater. Um and how fast that happens depends on how much money he gives.
51:23>> And just how big the city how many how many resources they can devote to things like this. So often it's kind of a peacemeal thing where they build part of the theater first then the stage building later. or they'll expand it later on and it's just built on, you know, layers of silt almost built on top of each other. But but TSUS is cool because it was never either excavated or built over in the Middle Ages. You just go there and it's as it was, you know, streets of tombs, you know, the line the statue bases. It's a very cool place.
51:49>> Yeah, I I want to go there. That's I highly recommend.
51:53>> Hope they don't ruin it solitude um through this >> and sitting in there alone. So cool.
51:58They but you the coliseum was built in seven years.
52:02>> That's our guess. We don't actually know exactly but it's built um we think more or less finished um most of it finished under Vespasian who starts it um >> so you know Vespasian you know is the 70s AD and we so we assume that you know Titus finishes it supposedly and he rules for only two years less than two years 79 to 81. So it might have been started in like 73 AD give or take and probably is almost finished when this patient dies in 79. It's unreal. I mean, >> and this is just a guess. We don't know.
52:30That's the assumption.
52:31>> We were just I was telling you a golden hour.
52:34>> Oh, you weren't kidding. Yeah.
52:35>> This was a video I took.
52:37>> My phone's like bling out right now, but I can see it. But like when you're just like >> in awe. I mean, deaf, that was your first time.
52:45>> Oh, yeah.
52:45>> Below that, you believe it's that perfect.
52:49>> I brought my youngest brother to uh Rome uh three or four years ago, and he was filming for me. I was doing some stuff in and around the city and he' never been to the city before, never seen the coliseum and we had our first dinner like in the shadow of the coliseum. Like Austin, isn't this amazing? He's like, "Yeah, it's pretty cool, but I kind of want to see see Tokyo to be honest."
53:07Like you dick, I brought you to Rome.
53:09It's like dude.
53:11>> Anyway, >> humans did that.
53:12>> Yeah, but but what's so cool about the coliseum? And if I see how half of it's in pretty good shape and half of it's not.
53:18>> Was just going to ask you why is I I haven't Googled that yet. I know you made a video on it back in the day. Why is half the coliseum gone at the top?
53:26>> And a couple reasons, but the big one is that half is built on bedrock and half is built on loose silt.
53:31>> Um, and so earthquakes took out the southern half um over the course of the middle ages all collapsed and the stone was robbed away um as soon as it fell down. The northern half on bedrock is much more stable, didn't collapse. Um, also the popes preserved it that they kind of controlled that part of the building for a long time and it was a good backdrop for the processions.
53:50That's part of the reason anyway.
53:52>> But uh >> such a cool place.
53:53>> So really awesome. And I think that the inside is kind of underwhelming to be honest. The coliseum was it was cied out, right? It's just a skeleton.
54:00>> Yeah. You don't you don't you can't see it in all its prime magnificent glory and the things they could have done cuz it's dry. But it's >> still when you walk around like we went around when we first went down there a couple weeks ago. We went around the entire circumference of it and you're just like, "Wow, that actually took a little while." And that's a big building. They built this.
54:23>> They have these tours. You can go up to the highest part, like the upper rank of seating. And you have a special ticket.
54:28I did this in 2018.
54:30>> But looking down from that vantage point, from the very highest part that's still preserved. You really have a sense of the sheer scale of the building.
54:36>> And it's it's kind of like a skeleton now, but it's almost more impressive in that way. See the bones, you know, these the ribs, the vaults that supported it all.
54:43>> Incredible. It's It's very cool.
54:45>> Now, one last thing. I said I was going to come back to this, >> but when in 476 AD when Rome falls to the Germanic tribes, >> Yeah.
54:55>> why, how militarily were the Germanic tribes able to pull that off >> and take the city and effectively the heartbeat of the empire?
55:05>> The Germans who destroyed the Roman Empire were in many ways already part of the Roman system. They were either allies of Rome uh Roman soldiers themselves um or familiar with the empire from just long service or you know they weren't barbarians in the sense they didn't know anything about Roman civilization. They actually admired the Romans and wanted to be Romans themselves. They wanted to claim um the title of being Romans you know as the Romans themselves had kind of held over them for all the centuries. Um the guy who deposes the last Roman emperor um Odoer is his name. um he's a a Roman
55:37general who's been kind of made part of the Roman army and just kind of gets rid of this puppet emperor who was a boy.
55:44>> The end of the Roman Empire in the West is not just a story of barbarian hordes rampaging over the Rine and taking over.
55:50It is partly that that was part of the issue. But it's as much even more I think a story of internal collapse of civil war above all weakening the empire and then of local elites gradually distancing themselves from the central power saying you know what we bought into Rome we're done we're going to make our deal with this barbarian chieftain we're going to make our deal with each other and ignore central power it's kind of things falling apart as opposed to people showing up and destroying it that happens absolutely but it's only able to succeed and not you know inside a Roman revolution of some sort because it was
56:30rotten already. Um things were falling to pieces.
56:34>> I love to be an optimist and I think you know we've been going through some tough times culturally here in America for a little while now. I I I think we're going to come out of this on the other side all right. I think I think there's a lot of good things that can happen for us to continue to be a great place and for my money the best place in in the world to live. But it is impossible to not see some of those same patterns in our society. When you talk about elites, when you talk about ineffective government, when you talk about the two of them fighting and then divorcing themselves from each other and going
57:08around each other's back while all the regular folk, as they would call all of us, >> are beneath them on the level of decision-m or understanding how things work. And then there's a lot of other variables as well that we won't get into right now.
57:22When you see that and you look at what a unbelievable structure the Roman Empire was and the fact that it was able to fall and it's gone. It's impossible to not fear some things going wrong here that that could lead to something like that.
57:41And as a historian, I would imagine, you know, not to be like a doomsday or anything, but when it comes to any type of powerful civilization, whether it's us or some other places around the world, >> you got to be thinking about that sometimes, right?
57:55>> What I always say is that America is not Rome. You know, it's so fundamentally different. You know, it's just a different script in all kinds of ways.
58:03>> You can say that that big hegemonic powers might have similar kinds of places in the world. For example, they might get complacent. They might, you know, have all kinds of waste and internal descent that looks similar superficially. Anyway, but I don't see in our own society anything that's like what happened in the Roman Empire in the fifth century AD.
58:23>> What you can compare it to, I think a little better is the collapse of the Roman Republic. Um, the replacement of the Republican system by Caesar and friends, for example.
58:33>> Not that I think that's happening now, much though some people might like that to happen. um it's more a matter of people ignoring conventions, people ignoring the rules of the game in pursuit of ambition.
58:46>> And so I think that if there's any lesson in Roman history for us in America today, it's that people with power, you know, we've always known this, tend to abuse power. And when you ignore the rules of the system, things can fall apart pretty quickly. So that would be my my topical lesson I guess is looking at that part of Roman history, the end of the republic and how ambition destroyed so much.
59:07>> I like that. It's a different take than a lot of us are talking about in pop culture right now, but still related to the same >> area of the world. Very interesting.
59:15>> Tolden Stone, Mr. Garrett Ryan, your work is amazing. As I always say, I love having you on the show. These are incredible conversations. I look forward, of course, to doing it again at some time. But we will again we'll collab this so people can subscribe literally hitting the title of this video right here and subscribe to your channel. But you are also doing all these amazing tours in Egypt, Turkey, Italy. Am I missing places?
59:41>> Uh one in Spain too actually.
59:42>> One in Spain too as well. So let's make sure I link that as well down below.
59:47Thank you. I will so people can check that out. But what I what I really really admire about you is you are constantly traveling to all these places like a kid in Toys R Us. You're so interested in it. I see all your posts when you put them like the actual written posts on YouTube. They're awesome. So people can go read that as well and hopefully join >> Garrett's upcoming tours.
60:08>> Oh well, thanks so much Julian. I really appreciate it.
60:10>> All right, we'll do it again sir. Thank you.
60:12>> Everybody else, you know what it is.
60:13Give it a thought. Get back to me.
60:15Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.
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