0:01Very excited to talk to you today, Dr.
0:03Jalal. Same here. It was very cool to see you reach out because as you might imagine I get a lot of people reaching out and it's usually like I'm hitting my head against the table like what the So then when I get one where I'm like woo, that's good. I'm pretty excited about it. It's like finding a $100 bill on the ground. Thank you, brother. I'm excited, man.
0:21So you do a litany of different things as a neuroscientist. You are currently researching at Harvard, correct?
0:29>> Correct. Among many other things I'm sure we'll talk about today. But where you found I guess like a real niche and expertise is particularly within like sleeping dreams and OCD. Right. Those are some areas.
0:43>> That's fair to say, yeah. Those are some areas. Um So sleep paralysis and sleep and dreams is something that I've, you know, been fascinated with for for a very long time. Um and OCD as you mentioned was something that I bumped into later on and and But yeah, these are all areas that I'm interested in.
1:02It all started, if you want to go back there, you know, to when I was >> exactly what I want to do. You're reading my mind.
1:06>> go back to when I was a teenager in Copenhagen. So I grew up in Copenhagen.
1:10I grew up in the hood in a ghetto-like area and >> [laughter] >> And so Um one day I was I was sleeping in my bed, you know, calmly. Everything was supposed to be calm, nothing dramatic and um I found myself you know, that I I saw I I found myself waking up consciously. So my eyes became aware. They opened. I saw my surroundings. I saw my room, but I was paralyzed from head to toe. So I couldn't move uh you know, at all. I was paralyzed.
1:40And at this moment at this point I was scared. What do I do? Like I I tried to scream, you know, "Mom, Dad." You know, but the words just wouldn't come out of my my throat was no words.
1:52Very scary at this point.
1:54Then suddenly I I this realization that there's there's an ominous creature in the corner of the room and it's approaching me and it's coming closer and closer and then finally it was on my chest strangling me.
2:04>> Oh, wow. You know, and you know, pressing on my chest and then I saw my legs flying up and down and it was all this this bizarre experience and you know, I was sure at this point I was I was I was going to die. I mean, I was sure of that.
2:18Uh eventually I wrestled myself out of the state. So, I was able to sort of get out of it.
2:24But the ramifications were huge, you know, the next day I was like, "Did I see a ghost? What happened? You know, was I visited by supernatural forces? Uh what does that all this mean, right?"
2:34And I couldn't really go to my parents, right? At that point, you know, I I told you earlier that as as a kid I was a very um I was the black sheep in the family. I didn't you usually do my homeworks. I had like 25% absent rate in in high school.
2:49I was very you know, I was a very rebellious kid my whole life. Never do any homework. The worst I was the guy who entire school years were just never did any anything, you know.
3:00>> Were you in a gang?
3:01I was kind of in a gang, you know, I was a little bit in a gang and I as a as a as a young kid, but you know, in Copenhagen the gangs were not that, you know, I wouldn't say they was that we weren't killing people, but we were there was stabbing. My best friend got, you know, shot at like uh in his in his house. My neighbor got shot in the head, you know, there was a lot of tons of stuff going on, but I wasn't so I was starting to dabble in that world, but let's say put it that way. I was >> Shot him in the foot, not the head.
3:28Let's put it that way.
3:29>> Got you. So.
3:30>> Got you. But anyway, so I had this experience. I was like, "Okay, I saw a ghost. What does all this all What does it mean, right? What is this about?" And so I decided to study this phenomenon closer and I realized there's something called sleep paralysis. This this state of being paralyzed unable to move or speak as you wake up from sleep.
3:46And that's what it started me in science. And yeah, so that's how it started. Before we get there all the way in cuz that's what we're going to be talking about today, I'm sure a lot.
3:55There's actually one other thing that I wanted to note here. You are as far as I know the first Kurdish person Is that right?
4:01>> I've had in here. Is that right? Yeah, and it's it's cool to talk with you because that is that subject matter of the Kurds has come up A lot. probably 30 to 40 times across the episodes I've done. Yeah. Whether it be talking with Joby Warrick or, you know, some of the former military guys who worked with the Kurds in the Middle East, but I bring it up because it's a very fascinating thing to me that a group of over 30 million people does not have their own country and I have advocated on here for them to be able to have their own country, you guys, because you also basically have like a lot of land that
4:41you run already. I don't know why we're not just drawing lines there, but you know, you grew up in in Copenhagen. Was that because you were displaced from some of from where the Kurds were, I guess, like fighting over territory?
4:54Yes, a great question. So, my parents I grow I my parents were both orphans. So, my my mom, her her dad died very early on when she was a kid. My father, same thing, his father died very early on.
5:07Two orphans um and they found each other at some point. There was a lot of war in Iraq at the time, as you know, Saddam Hussein was attacking the Kurds.
5:15And my parents decided to my father he want my father my father wanted to escape Iraq because of the war. He doesn't he didn't want to go and partake in that war.
5:24Came to Bulgaria. That's where I was born in Bulgaria and eventually we I was like five or six months infant and we were in Copenhagen. We moved to Copenhagen.
5:33Now, on your on your on the topic of like on the question of the Kurds and so yeah, definitely that you know, the issue of the Kurds have has been a huge pro you know, issue. You know, they haven't really had land and stuff like that.
5:46Personally, um my parents and that general generation was a lot, you know, they were into that a lot, you know, they found that, you know, the Kurds, you know, they need to have their own country and things like that, but I think our generation, my my sis- my sister, my brother, my, you know, they aren't as that strict about it. I think they they are more they find themselves more as global citizens, I think. Um and because we grew up in Europe and we're sort of we lived in in Cope- you know, in in in Europe and and in uh in America and things like that, we're not attached to that idea, really.
6:23I think the most important thing is that that that Kurds or any sort of group of people have rights of have, you know, their human rights covered, that they are not oppressed in any way, and and I think, look, now the Kurds actually doing very well, you know, they aren't they're pretty rich in the Iraqi region.
6:39Yeah, that that's what's strange to me.
6:41It's like they have a incredibly sophisticated military structure and therefore leadership structure. Yeah. I don't know. I always bring this up and even like some of my reporter guys aren't really sure the semantics, but it's not like they're paying taxes to Syria and stuff like that. Like they literally have their own Mad Max: Fury Road area. It's just they don't, you know, they don't sit on any international commissions because of that. They don't have I guess like they're not a part of some of the trade agreements that are allowed to happen in the region because they're not officially a country and all that.
7:16And I I don't know. I just I think the world is a really complex place, obviously, but my thought is any sizable group of people, I mean, if it's 10 people, I think you're kind of out of luck, but if you have a sizable population, whether it be the Druze, Yeah. d r u z e, or the Yazidis, who almost got exterminated from the planet back when ISIS was around, or the Kurds, it's like I feel like you should probably have a spot where you get a little voice in in the matter. It just kind of feels like the right thing to do, but that's an interesting perspective you have cuz you didn't grow up in it.
7:51>> I think that's my perspective and really what I'd love to see and this is kind of been my own view is that I'd love for people to like for example in Iraq, we have different like there's a Shiites, there's Sunnis, there's Kurds, there's all these people. I'd love for them to unite more and and sort of leave aside their cultural barriers and and leave aside that shouldn't be a barrier for for unity. Yes.
8:14>> You know what I mean? Like the tribalism of like having to kill each other or fight each other because I'm Kurdish or I'm this or that. We should try to go beyond that. We're all human beings, we're all are, you know, the same. We're all the same, you and I, you know, all of us are the same and so that's kind of my view. I I'd like more less nationalism in a way and more sort of understanding, unity and yeah, personally, you know, growing up in Copenhagen in the hood, my best friends were Turks, Iraqis, you know, I'm Kurdish, you know, and they're not supposed to get along in some cultural sense, right? But my best
8:51friends were of that, you know, nationality and I loved them more than my Kurdish friend. My when I was in a when we went to the gangs went to fight, I was like 14, 15, right? And so we'd choose our fists and all that, right?
9:04My my Turkish brother would stand up for me more perhaps than my Kurdish brother if I needed him.
9:09>> Wow. So so for the idea of a me being Kurdish and you being Turkish and you being, you know, Arab kind of eroded and we all just became humans and we just saw each other as the person you were inside. What was your level of loyalty?
9:23How was your heart? How was your mind?
9:25That mattered. So that kind of for me it erased that whole thing and you know, so That's beautiful.
9:31>> Color, nationality, all that just went away from me >> Yeah.
9:34>> to be honest.
9:35>> I think that's how it That's my view, you know.
9:37>> That's what we should be, you know? Like we we make all these stories up. And I don't mean to over trivialize it, but my friend Eric Zulger, who's like a world traveler who finds his way into some very interesting situations, like he got kicked out of Turkey couple times for saying he was coming from Kurdistan.
9:53They didn't like that very much. But he always said like nations are just stories, countries are just stories.
9:58>> man. They're all stories. They're We make them up, man. We make it all up.
10:01Look, ultimately we have the same blood.
10:03>> [snorts] >> You didn't choose to be born as Julian.
10:06You didn't Were you born in New Jersey?
10:08I was technically born in Philly, but yes, born and raised in Philly.
10:11>> choose your parents? Nope. You didn't.
10:13You didn't choose your your like how you look, your skin color, nothing none of that, you know? You were just thrown into this vessel of flesh and blood that you call Julian. You got it Even your name you didn't choose for God's sake. Right? So So the fact that you are here and that you are having a human experience as as the person you are that's what it is and and you know, we shouldn't make that a difference. We shouldn't let these constructs that we create in our minds divide us. That's what I feel, man.
10:44That's what I feel. Do I sound like Michael Jackson now? Yeah.
10:47>> [laughter] >> Heal the world.
10:50Yeah, yeah, you do. You're doing great, by the way. Can you just pull in the mic a little bit when you're talking? Yeah, just keep it tight like that. That's perfect. So we left off though where you talked about this sleep paralysis event. You said you were a teenager, so what? Like 15, 16, something like that?
11:05>> Well, actually the the time I was like 18 maybe, 18 I was end of my teenage years and and so yeah, that's when it happened, man, that experience. And so it really took me on this It was a trip.
11:16It was a trippy experience and I decided, well, I'm going to study this phenomenon further. I'm going to like read books and I'm going to just devour them and figure out what the hell is this.
11:25So I looked at books, I started reading books and lo and behold, I found something that I that kind of sounded like what I experienced. I saw you know I heard about people lying in their beds being paralyzed and space aliens would come down on ships and they would experiment on the on the sleeper. They would pull out semen, you know?
11:42>> I've had a couple of those guys in your seat. Yeah. Yeah. So they took they took out semen and then they would you know whisk them up to the spaceship and all that. So very very exotic stuff.
11:52>> Yes.
11:53And so the question was what is this?
11:55What's going on?
11:56Is this the brain playing tricks on you or is it actually you know space alien coming down from far away galaxies? That was the question.
12:05And I had to explore this. So when I went to Egypt I did research. I started to do research and so I looked into the cultural ideas for it and soon my research found that in Egypt it's the evil genies. You know the evil have you seen Aladdin the cartoon?
12:21>> Yeah. The evil Jafar the evil genie that comes you know with huge muscles and he right wants to kill Aladdin. That's kind of the cultural explanation for sleep paralysis in Egypt. So people will say that is the genie. The genie. The genies it's called the jin in Arabic. Yeah I I remember the jin. That's the same thing you're talking about.
12:39>> Interesting. The jin and the genie same thing. So the jin is what is causing sleep paralysis. That's the monster of of of this the sleep paralysis monster in Egypt is the genie. And they have very very evil intentions. They want to kill you. They want to violate you sexually. They want to do all kinds of things to you.
12:56And so very terrifying explanation for sleep paralysis in Egypt. Wow. I went on then to study it in Egypt in Italy for example and it turned out in in in Italy people would say it's this creature called the pandafeche which is this you know witch-like creature.
13:13It can kill you potentially harm you do all kinds of things to you. So again a cultural layer to the experience.
13:20>> [snorts] >> I then wanted to compare sleep paralysis in Egypt to Denmark directly to see how these two cultures interpret the experience. Like how do they interpret and and sort of make sense of it?
13:34>> Yes. Why is that important? Well, because I knew from my time in Denmark that people in Denmark are very let's say secular in the way of thinking. You know, they don't believe in the spiritual world very much. They are more sort of science-based, more physiological in their view of the world. So, I thought, well, how would they understand something like sleep paralysis versus Egypt where literally people are they walk around and they just kind of are very spiritual and very religious overall, right? So, how do they how do these two cultures digest something so profoundly supernatural in nature?
14:09And it turned out that first of all, we found that in Egypt it's much more common.
14:15So, it's twice as common as in versus Denmark, okay? So, in Egypt, very very frequent. A lot of people have it, okay?
14:22Versus Denmark. Mhm. the first finding.
14:25All right? Second finding, we found that in Egypt the people who have it, so if I'm in Egypt, my name is Ahmed, I have it and I'm my name is Joe, I live in Denmark and I have sleep paralysis on a frequent basis, the guy in Egypt has it has it three times more frequently. So, the experience is it's sort of you just have it more. You have it maybe five times a week versus the game Danish guy, he has it maybe one time a month.
14:51>> That's so terrifying.
14:52>> I'll get even it's going to be more spooky. Okay. The guy in the guy in Egypt has greater fear of it.
15:01So, they fear their their fear of dying from sleep paralysis it's it's about like it's it's huge. I mean, it's like 50% of people in Egypt think that they can die from it. Literally, like they think that the experience is fatal.
15:15That's that's, you know, Every time?
15:17Yeah, the so the the rate is like 50% um of the people think it's fatal. Yes, but every time they experience it or just once in a while?
15:25>> experience. So so we didn't really get it down to if it's each time. So that we just asked the question like do you think sleep paralysis can kill? And about 50% of the 100 people, let's say we asked or 1,000 people, so 500 would say yes, we think it can kill. So whether it's each time or not is just a gen- the general perspective of it that it's fatal. Okay?
15:48>> Bes- Beside that, they have more vivid hallucinations, they have more fear, they feel it last much longer. So once they have it, they feel like it lasts for ages. So the Danish person it's it feels like it lasts for a few seconds, right? It's like okay, I had it, it just lasted for a few seconds. The guy over here in Egypt he feels like it lasts for hours. So it's like it's a very amplified, prolonged, scary experience.
16:12Now, this was all it all came back to one key finding, which was that the Egyptians 90% of them thought it was the evil genies. Mhm.
16:22>> So because of that, you know, the cultural ideas was driving this versus the Danish people where everybody pretty much said it was just the brain, it was just stress, it was just anxiety.
16:32So literally you saw how beliefs, your mind can shape the experience. It's kind of like a You know the placebo effect? I give you a sugar pill, I say you'll be better like Space Jam, you know? Nocebo is the opposite. I give you this drink, I'll say it's poison, you drink it.
16:49And then this is >> [laughter] >> You know it's poison and you die, right?
16:52>> Yeah.
16:52That's the nocebo effect. So we believe that this is a profound example of the nocebo effect. The the difference we saw.
17:00And we later replicated this finding in Italy, we found a similar pattern.
17:04Italians will say about a third of them that it's this these witch-like creatures. And again, this experience is prolonged, the fear is amplified, they have vivid hallucinations, and so forth.
17:14So clearly we find this very interesting pattern.
17:18Now this is uh how old are you when you were finding this? So, this I found this when I was I started my research as an undergraduate and then as I was moving to California and doing research there.
17:27So, yeah, yeah.
17:28>> All right. Let me put a little bit of a timeline together here so I understand like how you how you got all into this.
17:33So, you had the initial experience yourself as a teenager.
17:35>> Correct. At the time, you kind of like a little bit of a gangster, going to school 25 75% of the time.
17:41>> Exactly.
17:42>> Skipping the other 25, shooting people in the foot. Anyway. Exactly. I lost I [laughter] lost stuff there. Obviously, you were a pretty intelligent guy. You just never like found an interest in school or applied yourself. Is that fair? Well, maybe I mean it's it's a compliment, but I didn't feel intelligent. I always got bad grades. I felt like I couldn't make sense of any of any of it, but I'll take the compliment.
18:04Well, there was something going on there because then this happens and then you sink yourself into studying that. So, did you go to undergrad in Egypt? Did you understand?
18:15>> I My grades were so poor, I couldn't get into any university in in in in in uh Denmark. But they let you in during the Arab Spring in Egypt.
18:23>> money, you know. So, my My dad had a pizza shop and so he could afford some of it. And then once I got there, I did one semester and then my my semester where I did so well that they paid me for the rest of the money.
18:34>> Yeah, because at that at that time I changed so radically. So, I went from like poor grades, I never saw more than a D in my entire high school until I was like 18, 19. And then to like this dramatic shift where I just started to just read books 24 hours. I'm very obsessive. You see my nature. I'm very obsessive. I get into things. I just focus on it like 24 hours. And so, once I wanted to sort of crack the code of this phenomenon, I read books all the time. I did nothing but read books. And my mind my brain really expanded and obviously it started with sleep paralysis, but I also it was just leak I
19:09would just leak I read other stuff as well. So, I just got really into reading and thinking and writing poetry. I became very sort of and mind you, I was philosophical as a kid, you know, grow up growing up in the ghetto. I always was thinking a lot about my my existence life, you know, life, what is meaning and all that. So, I was kind of philosophical, but there was no intellectual or academic hinge or like or tethering. It was just like free-floating thoughts. Yeah. When I went to Egypt, I my obsession got even more because I lived alone pretty much and I would just hang out with the poor kids on the street sometimes, but
19:45other than that, I would just read. So, I'd read and then go down and hang out with the with the, you know, the the the the kids on the street sometimes just for social interaction, you see. Did you speak their language when you went there?
19:55>> I learned it. Yeah, so I learned it.
19:56>> Wow. How many languages do you speak?
20:02Okay.
20:05Is that that Okay, Kurdish.
20:23I don't I don't speak that well, but I speak a little bit of Italian. All right, three and a half. German, but then German they are learning in school.
20:28I was really bad at it, but uh I was supposed to I was supposed to know it, so I got drilled in German since I was like five or six.
20:36What other languages do I speak? I think that those are probably Spanish, Italian, Kurdish.
20:43>> Well, you speak English, obviously.
20:44>> bit a little bit of English. I'm trying to learn. I'm still learning.
20:46>> [laughter] >> And um Yeah, I think those might be those might be it, I think.
20:52>> All right. I think so. That's that that that's pretty good lineup right there.
20:54You can find your way around. So, you go to Egypt, you learn the language >> the language.
20:58>> yourself into studying.
21:00>> study 24 hours and then I learned Arabic from the street kids.
21:04And cuz the American University in Cairo I went to American University, so I wasn't really speaking Arabic in that university. So, I learned it that's where That's how the the street kids come in. It was kind of my old instinct of hanging out with street Like, I went from ghetto kids to street kids. That's what I mean. That's what I'm trying to graduating Yeah, yeah, so um and then once I was in Egypt, I because of that drastic focus on books, I just got really good grades all of a sudden.
21:32Have you seen that movie called um Gangster's Paradise?
21:37Yes. Yes.
21:39>> So, Michelle Pfeiffer, right? She's the teacher. She gives everybody an A to start with. She said, "You got all got an A, and then you have just have to keep that A until the end of of your school or whatever, and then you just keep it. Instead of instead of earning the A, you got the A and you just keep the A. You know what I mean?
21:54>> yeah. Same thing when I went to Egypt, they actually there was some because I had taken some classes in Copenhagen in literature English literature because it was free university is free in Copenhagen, so I'd taken some classes.
22:05And I had some like D's and F's. It transferred but to Egypt, and once it transferred to Egypt, it it showed up as an A. Oh, wow.
22:14>> So, they told me, "Oh, you are a perfect 4.0 4.0 GPA." I was like, "What? Okay, I'll take it, you know?" And then >> that Tik Tok where they change all the F's to like an A plus.
22:23>> [laughter] >> So, it was just like, "Okay, good. I'll just keep that." And then I just kept it and I I graduated with 4.0. Just everything was just A's from there. And that was full 4 years? Full 4 years, yeah. And then the finally I actually took my final year in in California, so I went to final year I had to sort of get out of Egypt. I felt like it was becoming I had to have more challenge. Was that when the Arab Spring was happening, too?
22:45>> during the Arab Spring.
22:46Yeah, man, you're you're you're right on it. It was on the Arab Spring. I went to at this point I went to California.
22:52And one day in California, as I'm walking about, you know, in in San Diego, I bump into this guy who turns out to be one of the greatest neuroscientist of alive, if not the greatest.
23:06>> Who? You know, V.S. Ramachandran. He's V.S. Ramachandran.
23:08>> that name before. One of the greatest neuroscientists, and I run into him, and I was like, I'm starstruck. You know, I was like, "Rama Ramachandran." I kind of like I'm shaking. I don't What do I do with myself? Like I start sweating, you know, and and he's kind of He greets me.
23:21He's very warm, very kind, and you know, I I was just so happy to meet him.
23:27I thought, okay, I have to take his class. So, I take his class. I sit in the front row. Okay, I sit in this front row, and every question he has, I'm just sitting there and answering it. Every question.
23:37You know, he's I think he got impressed with that, and so he took me into his laboratory.
23:41I went into got into his laboratory, and we ended up becoming friends. In fact, we became best friends. Can you believe it? So, I was with him for like 4 5 years, 6 years in the laboratory. We became like best friends. He literally called me his third son. He had two other sons. He called me his third son.
23:57He was He was my second father. Always together.
24:00Three or four hours every day we'd drive, you know, go to the supermarket with him, do all kinds of things with him. It was unbelievable. Here I'm Here Here's this kid in the ghetto going from nothing, and this guy, he's just on He was just on Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world. Literally just got that announcement, and I'm sitting there there with him eating cookies and drinking, you know, in the in the cafeteria having milk and cookies with him. Can you believe it? Talking about the human brain. How life can take you from nothing to like you know >> to like shootings, and then here you are
24:32in California, right?
24:33>> Well, you put yourself in that position, too, you know. I feel like I feel like I I feel like I was blessed. I I don't want to take any credit for for it. I feel like I feel like I was I was blessed. It was a blessing. I didn't have >> That's very humble of you, but also like if you want to call it luck or a blessing or something, there's that old American phrase, luck is where hard work meets up meets opportunity. I think that's I I that's a true. and and and and what happened was I did I did work really hard, become very serious about life, disciplined myself. I mean, didn't come easy, but I
25:05my brain changed. So, the brain can change.
25:08And I I think that was a huge part of this reason this this this whole thing.
25:12So, the brain, as you know, is hyper flexible. Uh we have different modules in the brain. We have a structure called a prefrontal cortex, which is outer layer. Then you have the temporal lobes, the emotional part of the brain, it's right here behind your ears. You have the occipital lobe, which is the vision part of the brain. So, you have different parts of the brain. This is called the cortex.
25:32Now, the brain can change. It can change its form. And once its form changes, your personality changes, too. Your discipline changes.
25:42For example, let me give you one concrete example. There's a region called the anterior cingulate and the mid cingulate cortex, which is just beneath this layer called the cortex. The cortex is the outer layer helmet. Yeah. So, the that cingulate cortex, that region there's there's there's neurons there.
26:00The more you use your the more disciplined you are and the more you take action even though you don't want to take certain actions, the more that portion of the brain will grow. So, for example, Melanie, she's lying there, he's sleeping. He doesn't want to get up and take a cold plunge. Okay, or Julian doesn't want to go to the gym.
26:19Right? So, you're sitting there and thinking about it for 3 minutes. Should I go to the gym? Shouldn't I go? Should I go? Shouldn't, you know, no, yes, you know, yes. You decide to go.
26:28When you decide to go, that mid cingulate cortex will literally grow.
26:32And the more you actually do that, the more you take up the the the challenge and you say, "The hell with it. I'm just going to go." the more the cingulate cortex will grow larger, it will become thicker and literally expand. And does this happen in the other direction as well when you go the opposite way?
26:49>> 100% it shrinks. Yeah. So, the the less you just the more you decide, "No, I'm not going to go for that run. No, I'm not going to wake up to and go to school today." My entire life was a dead mid-cingulate cortex, right? It was It wasn't active at all. It suddenly became very active.
27:04And that's because the brain has these synapses.
27:08Synapses are So, there are neurons in the brain, and then And neurons have wires, axons and and and dendrites, okay? So, dendrites are sort of wires that receive information from the axon, which is a wire from the neurons. And And between them, there are synapses that allow for communication, okay? This is a fancy way of saying that these synapses and connections between neurons can grow our entire life. So, the more we do things we don't want to do, the more we challenge ourselves, the more we take action, the more we will grow new synapses and allow for the brain to to become more plastic. So, we
27:46can get into plasticity. There are certain There are certain things that have to occur for plasticity to to really run its course. For example, you have to be hyper attentive, right? So, if I live in the ghetto and I have the same routines every single day, I go to the, you know, I come home, I go to school, I come back, you know, I go out, fight this guy, come You know, I have all these routine things I do every single day. I will have very little plasticity. Why? Because the brain doesn't work like that. It doesn't change itself because it sees, "Look, it's just the same thing over and over.
28:21There's no reason for me to change." The brain is not wasteful in that way.
28:25However, when you do new things and you put yourself in new environments, your attentional system becomes active. And this is a system called nuc- the nucleus basalis. It's in the sort of the mid-central part of the brain. It produces neurons called acetylcholine.
28:42And acetylcholine neurons are basically attention-driving neurons.
28:47This is your attention system. So, whenever I see like if I see this girl over there and she's really pretty, I'll have a lot of acetylcholine attention focusing on her way, for example, right? Or if I go to travel to Egypt, for example, and everything is new, guess what? I have a lot of acetylcholine attention because everything is new. I have to be aware of the streets. I have to be aware of the new mountains and maybe there's a new lion over here using uh figurative language, obviously, but you know, >> Mhm. things are new and so my brain says, "Look, since you are new territory, you better hell change your
29:20structure for survival reasons." So, if you, right, or Joe or anybody wants to change their brain, they have to go to new places or do new things because that's what triggers and prompts the brain to change its structure.
29:33Mhm.
29:33>> Right? So, if that makes sense. It's survival. So, that's the first re- That's the first factor for survi- changing your brain. And I had that in Egypt, literally as an example of me going new territory, the brain says, "Look, you are in survival mode, change."
29:48Second factor is dopamine.
29:50Dopamine is this reward chemical we have in our brain. There are structures in the brain, fancy names like the, you know, nucleus accumbens and, you know, basal ganglia regions and things like that. Just fancy words for neurons, little bit deep- little bit beneath the cortex, and these are involved in reward or anticipation of reward, in fact. So, not even reward. So, if I am Again, if I'm hugging a girl or if I'm hugging my mother, that's rewarding, but it's not that much dopamine. It's more endorphins and feel-good chemicals. There are other >> Oxytocin, vasopressin, you know, these kinds of in in in chemicals you have.
30:26But if I'm anticipating a meal, tons of dopamine. Or before sexual encounters, tons of dopamine. So, that's anticipation of joy. Anyway, dopamine you also need. So, you need reward. And so, a- any anytime you do something new when it's rewarding, that's when you get especially a lot of of plasticity in the brain. So you have to have these two these two things, these two factors. And I think I had that in Egypt. It was very rewarding for me to learn new things. I was I was I was driven and and and that's how my brain changed. I got I must have gotten new synapses and so that took me from ghetto to
31:04to the Arab Spring in Egypt all the way to to the top of the palace with the with [laughter] the prince of neuroscience, the king of neuroscience.
31:12Here I am, you know. So that's how the all that whole journey. Yeah. Joe, how are we doing with that sound outside? Is that okay? It's fine. I'll I'll stick with the noise around that. We're good.
31:22So you what what's how do you pronounce his name again? I've heard that name before.
31:26>> V.S. Ramachandran. V.S. Ramachandran.
31:28Can we pull him up as well, Joe? Give him a big old shout out. So you're spending 6 years with this guy.
31:33>> I I spent not only 6 years. So 6 years was the guy the time where we were like best friends and just hanging out every single day and going to the beach and talking about science and the history of science and just really shaping my brain. Literally, I had the greatest scientist mentor me personally, right?
31:49Um but then unfortunately, what happened to my my my dear friend is that he got Parkinson's. So the world's greatest scientist or neuroscientist get Parkinson's brain disease.
32:01>> That's so cool.
32:02>> down. He becomes, you know, so Parkinson's is is that you get mask expressions. You can't really smile that much because you need dopamine for smiling. Your movement is very slow. You walk you walk with a sort of what's called a you have like a special walk you walk like you can't really move, you know?
32:21You've seen Muhammad Ali and and also >> Michael J. Fox.
32:23>> Michael J. Fox. So you have this and you got this and so >> [snorts] >> I you know, my from there on I I my my I tried to really take care of him. So I went from like having fun with him more to taking care of him, nurturing him, being a a a a son to him. Like when I got sick at one point, I got sick when I was there in my early years. He He was so kind. He gave me his own car, like a Jaguar. What happened to you? I was I had some I had some uh I sort of um inflammatory issues with like my You thought it was my heart and all kind of things, but I It turned out not to be very serious, but I got a
32:57couple of months of where I was pretty sick. He was like, you know, he gave me everything, man. His own car, everything. And so we need when he got sick I really took care of him and and I really you know, tried to be uh a close friend and yeah, just help him through through that and and I still visit him. I just saw him last year before He doesn't talk that much now. He can't really talk that much. It's hard to understand, but just being in his presence, I can see in his eyes that he can still see it's me. He still feel that happiness when we're together, like, you know, that kind of friend thing, you know, we have.
33:32And >> Sure, he's very proud of you. And everything you've done.
33:35>> He's He's He's very He's very He's very proud of me, but he's also hard to impress, you see? His standards are very high. He's hard to impress, but he he is He always says, "This is my star student." Still. He's still He's still a student, you know. This is my star >> then.
33:48Man, he was he was a great guy. If I can give anything back to him honor him is what I'll do as long as I And he knows this. As long as I'm alive, I will honor him because I really know what he did for me is why I'm here today. He opened up all the doors. I, you know, you can be as smart as you want. You can be get 4.0s, write scientific papers, but when you have a mentor that's the top of the hierarchy, that's when doors open. And so he opens opened a lot of doors for me go to Cambridge and Harvard and all that. Um So I am You mentioned it as one of the traits you look for in friends growing up, but you mentioned loyalty and stuff
34:24like that. I I have a great appreciation for people who understand where they came from and and and the people who allowed them to do what they do. And that comes across heavily. So, I'm I'm sure he feels that as well. If he's calling you his star student, I I think he I think he's probably impressed with with where you're getting to. So, you're you're doing a good job. Man, yeah. Thank you, brother. I really appreciate it, Julian, man. Um but look, I think little did I think that ever I should I would have like a mentor that would like I would love just like a father or like a very close uncle. I never thought this
34:58would happen to me. Like you'd have somebody who's literally so close that, you know, you know, you don't think this will will happen to you, and and uh and then see him getting sick, and you kind of feel like well, life can really throw you curve curve balls. It can be very hard. And so, it's very important to to honor those who really took care of you. Yeah. And I'll do that, man. I can continue to do that. Yeah, that's that I I had said it when you first mentioned it, but it's it's like a very cruel thing from the universe that someone who studies the brain and all these different things that then they get afflicted with
35:31something that affects their function from the brain.
35:34>> 100%. This guy was a superstar.
35:36He was literally so talented, you can't believe it. Like so, you see talent today, for example, you may see Jordan Peterson, he's very talented at at you know, at giving lectures, mesmerizing.
35:47This guy was the superstar. If he had been alive during or he's still alive, thank god.
35:52>> But being able to speak >> been young young and and and healthy during this time, he would have been a star. He would be number one. He would He was so mesmerizing speaker. Yeah.
36:03I Jordan told me uh during one of our conversations, he said that he once had Ramachandran give a lecture at Harvard back in the '90s, and he literally said that was the most mesmerizing speaker he's ever seen.
36:17The most mesmerizing when he saw Rama, you know. So, it tells you a lot from somebody who's himself extremely very very talented speaker, very mesmerizing himself, giving giving praise to who was like really unbelievable, you know, star. Now, he obviously can't unfortunately communicate like that anymore because of his affliction.
36:40>> Unfortunately. But I I know Parkinson's like kind of has a range to it sometimes how it how it affects people, but you know, can he Does he still do any work or research or or things like that? Is is is he able to contribute to I don't know, some of the stuff you're working on or >> Unfortunately, that that stopped like I would say four five years ago. It just became too slow. So we couldn't really >> uh uh s- continue our our work in the scientific sense, but yeah, as I said, I I saw him I think Was it in January or something? I was at his home. It was It was lovely to see me. He was a bit better this year than the previous year
37:18I saw him. He was a bit better. My my own pops with my own dad was there. Oh, that's cool.
37:23>> So my dad and and him were all both together and we went out and have had food and went to his house and and we hang out. And we know it was it was it was it was it was beautiful, man. It was it was a good experience. And um yeah, I treasure that. Hey guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge huge help. Thank you. Aren't they I see you can't trust this stuff when you see I'll see things in passing and like not look at it, but it's like stored in there as like a headline somewhere. Aren't they working on some new treatments right now for Parkinson's
37:56that could potentially reverse it or am I making that up and thinking of a different >> there are different technologies that they're working on. So one is deep brain stimulation. So in Parkinson's, you have parts of the brain that has to do with automatic movement. So they're called this basal ganglia. Yes.
38:11>> Basal ganglia is deeper inside the brain. It has to do with moving automatically versus the cortex where you move voluntarily. So when I move, I grab something over here, I move my hand from here to A to B. That's the cortex, the motor cortex out here. The basal ganglia has to do with automatic movements, automatic involuntary movements. So, on that note, for example, if I if I get a if I have a stro- if if I still you tell me to smile, but I don't smile. But I don't smile.
38:46>> Okay, now I'm going to smile, okay? It looks hideous. Yeah, your eyes aren't doing it for real.
38:51>> have the that this these muscles are the same smile. You don't have these, you know, it all seems This is because this is a called a cortical smile, cortical smile. Now, Julian is a great photographer, and he wants me to really look good on a on a on on screen, okay, on a on a photo.
39:06>> great over here. I see it.
39:08>> I appreciate that.
39:08>> Yeah. What you would do then you would say say a very good joke, and I would laugh, and my basal ganglia would fire with activity, and I would have a real smile, and that would look much more charming, you see? Yes. That's the basal ganglia. Now, the basal ganglia, the neurons in the basal ganglia are dying off in Parkinson's. Mhm. And so, how do you reactivate those neurons? How do you revive those neurons, make them come alive again?
39:34And it turns out that you really It's It's difficult to get deeper in the brain. So, we can stimulate the brain on the outer layer, on the cortex, as I mentioned, the outer layer. It's It's easier because you can have a magnet, and you stimulate it. You go And you stimulate the brain, and you can revive some of those neurons, or make them more active, right? But deeper in the brain, it's harder. It's more difficult. And so, how do you get in there? So, one potential way to get in there is a You can have a helmet that has It's called photobiomodulation. It's a It's a newer technique, and so you have light
40:13go through the brain, and it can go deeper, and it could potentially make those neurons more active. There's a helmet called What is it called? It's Neuronic. And they're not paying me, but they sent me a helmet, free helmet.
40:28>> paying you? They're not paying me. It's free. Yeah. All right, we're going to check your bank account after. They sent me a helmet, a you know, a actual helmet, about $2,000 helmet. They sent it to me.
40:38Uh and they asked me to try it out.
40:41That looks like an I've fallen and can't get up helmet.
40:44There you go.
40:44>> I don't know.
40:46Okay. And uh So, what is So, what does this do? This will go inside your brain, and the light emanating, it's called red light, so infrared light >> Yeah.
40:56>> Yeah, it's it's deeper. It's not You can't really see it with your eyes, but it can penetrate the skull, go in there, and then it can act on the mitochondria inside the cells and make them more active. And so, the cells that you have They won't necessarily It won't create new neurons, obviously. Neuro What's called neurogenesis, the birth of new neurons, is very rare in the human brain. Okay?
41:17But, you can actually make some of the neurons that are, you know, less that deficient, you can make them more active by using using these kind of techniques.
41:24So, Wow.
41:25>> But, it's good. It has sort of an all-purpose all-purpose, you know, um function to it. So, my sister had insomnia, and she tried it. And she has an insomnia going on. I said, "Look, you can try it out. I'm okay myself. I'm I'm fine right now. You can try it." And so, she tried it, and actually she got better within a week, you know.
41:43>> Whoa.
41:43>> So, it improved. Yeah. quite um quite something um to to see, you know. I don't like to assume we're going to get everything solved and all that, but sometimes I get like a little excited in my head that we're living in an era where the exponential growth scientifically is still a thing. They say eventually that'll stop, but it's still a thing, which means we're building on the best building blocks ever, as you always are with exponential growth. And that there are so many horrible things right now that we take for granted is like, "Well, you're fucked." Right. With it that, you know, maybe it's 5 years, maybe it's 10 years
42:20or 15, it's going to be like, "Ah, that's gone. We're good."
42:24>> Right. You know, like something crazy right now that would be like if you walked in there, it feels like a death sentence, in 15 years it'd be like, "All right, just step over here." Yeah.
42:32>> Give me 5 minutes, you're good. Right.
42:33>> Like, I Am I crazy to to feel that way about innovation?
42:37>> at all. Look, so for example, depression, let's say depression what you have seen for like 30, 40 years, what we've been doing is that somebody comes in, we give them a pill, SSRI or you know, something like that, and they take it and they may take it that for 6 months at least, but typically a year they take it.
42:56Most people don't even get better, let's say 50%, let's say at the at the most get a some some a little bit better.
43:03Tons of side effect, you know, Oh, yeah.
43:06sexual dysfunction, they, you know, get gain weight. You know, all these side effects, they get dizzy.
43:13Horrible, horrible, horrible, right? And then So, what do you do? Well, something called TMS, as I mentioned before, stimulation of the cortex.
43:23What you can do now is that literally, instead of a year on drug drugs and potentially getting better or changing like four or five drugs if it the one didn't work, you have this machine, you put it on the left side of the brain, you stimulate it, okay? In one day, you can potentially cure people with with depression. 80, 90% of people will get better. 80 to 90, just one day. One day.
43:46>> One day. So, these are new neuro trials coming, but it seems very promising. So, this is some of my the stuff over Harvard Medical School that I've been involved in in the last year. Very promising. So, put it on the skull, stimulate it like this, and you literally will in one day, you take a drug as well, and this is just one for one drug.
44:03>> the drug? The drug will boost neuroplasticity.
44:06>> It's not an SSRI? No, this is one like for one day. You can Like Tylenol.
44:11Something like that, right? It's It'll boost SSRIs SSRI Oh, sorry, boost neuro what's called neuroplasticity and specifically called what's called uh neurotrophic factors. So, neurotrophic factors for your nerdy audience, okay, for those the audience who like these kind of things >> No, this is great. Keep it Don't worry about it.
44:28>> Okay, so you have what's called BDNF and GDNF. These are neurotrophic factors, just meaning proteins like fertilizers in the brain. And when when you have a lot of those proteins, what will happen is these synapses, these gaps, will increase more rapidly. It allows for growth in the brain.
44:45And and that is literally these these drugs will do. This is what a trip will do if you go to like when you go to Egypt or new country, you will have more BDNF and GDNF. In fact, if you exercise if Julian goes out and takes a run and you or do some kind of cardiovascular exercise, you will have more BDNF and GDNF. Another factor that allows for plasticity in the brain. 100% >> So, you don't only need to travel, you can also just exercise. Yeah, that's what I feel like sometimes, Beland, like people want to solve so many of these problems and we see a society where it's like, "Oh, just throw a pill at it or
45:21something." But like I don't know if this is a great example, but if my computer I I just got one that has like 8 terabytes of space. But let's say, you know, these are big files. I keep a lot of files on there. Yep. If I start filling it up with 7 and 1/2 terabytes, 7.7 terabytes, it's going to run slower. And then, you know, sometimes like my desktop looked like a war zone a couple weeks ago. It was just things everywhere, right?
45:47>> And I had storage filled on the last computer. It's like I went in there, I took the time, I cleaned up the whole desktop. It's completely clean now. I organized everything. And then I also went and I cleared data, I moved some stuff to external hard drives I've been putting off to do.
46:02You know, it was like a couple hours to clean things up and everything, so I had to put in effort. But now the computer ran great, and then I transferred to the new computer. Now it's running fast as hell. So, it's like a little bit of time and effort creates a creates some sort of solution that mathematically makes sense. And I like it's not a perfect parallel, but like so many afflictions we see. I'm not talking about Parkinson's or things like that where it's something completely out of your control. But so many afflictions that are bad, you know, be it depression or other things like that. Instead of a
46:35pill, there are things like, well, do you exercise? No. Okay, go exercise for an hour a day. Do a half hour of cardio, move some weights, get some feel better about yourself. Go for a walk out in nature, not on a treadmill or something like that. Experience the outside. If you're a male, it'll boost your testosterone. It's like, you know, so do you ever get frustrated that people also have some very human basic biological evolutionary things in front of them that they could just do and work into their day as a new plasticity for habit, and they just kind of refuse to do it?
47:09>> Yeah, we see that a lot. I mean, it's it's a huge problem. So, think about this. I mean, when you sleep, for example, you have good sleep, tons of plasticity and healing occurs in sleep.
47:18Like, so when you go through different stages of sleep, you have something called deep sleep, which is sort of the third stage of sleep.
47:26During this stage, literally, you have cells regenerate. You have skin regenerate. You have cardiovascular regeneration.
47:33Your your your memory is all the memories from your day will consolidate, meaning they will sort of fall in place. You have a region called the hippocampus behind your ears, memory part of the brain. It will literally take information [snorts] from the day and store it in different localities in the brain during this stage, you know. So, we what when we rob ourselves of this stage, we are robbing ourselves of physical healing.
47:56>> Yes. After that, after deep sleep, you hit REM sleep, which is arguably even more important.
48:02Both during deep sleep and REM, you have like things like growth hormones. Growth hormones mainly deep sleep. But REM, you have things like testosterone.
48:11You have emotional healing. So, during REM sleep, what happens is very interesting. So, neurons in a part of the brain called the locus ceruleus. It's about 32 thousand pitch black cells in the lower part of the brain. Locus ceruleus?
48:27>> Sounds like a gladiator.
48:28>> Sounds I was going to say it sounds like I'm looking at behind you. Sounds like Marcus Aurelius.
48:31>> Sounds like it. Maximus Decimus Meridius. Exactly. Exactly. But those cells, right? They produce a chemical called noradrenaline. This is the chemical cousin of adrenaline. So, whenever you are stressed, you have a lot of adrenaline in the system. You are very hyped up. You are agitated. You are you are you are excited potentially.
48:50And so, this is noradrenaline, right?
48:53Now, when you are in REM sleep, you have no noradrenaline. Noradrenaline is absent. Mhm. Okay? And this is interesting.
49:01The only phase in the 24-hour cycle where the stress chemical noradrenaline is absent from your system is during REM sleep.
49:11It's during REM sleep.
49:13I'll get to the punchline now. Yeah. Why is that important? Well, because when I'm in REM sleep and I'm dreaming, REM sleep is a stage of sleep where we have vivid and lifelike crisp dreams.
49:24These are the dreams where you see yourself on the moon. You're wrestling with an alligator, playing soccer with Messi at the same time, and then you're suddenly in Buckingham Palace as well, and everything is warped. This is in REM sleep, right?
49:35Now, >> a lot lot of REM sleep. That's good.
49:38>> REM is important. Now, I'll tell you.
49:39Now, I'll tell you. Your brain during REM, in the lower part of the brain, you have something called the pons and the medulla. Two structures, okay? In the lower part of the brain.
49:49They send down a chemical called glycine and another chemical called GABA. These are inhibitory neurotransmitters. They calm things down. Yes. They go down through the spinal cord, and then they are called in the spinal cord, they paralyze your entire body. So, you're entirely paralyzed from head to toe during REM sleep. Okay? Now, you are paralyzed in REM, you're having these vivid and lifelike crisp dreams, and then I mentioned noradrenaline is absent. So, that means the stress chemical that allows you to be agitated and anxious is not there.
50:24Now, Julian asks the hundred million dollar question. Why is that important?
50:27Mhm. That is important because when you experience your dreams and you see yourself being chased by a monster and you're running and you can't get away and things are bizarre and strange and dangerous, but there's no stress chemical in the system, that means you can you learn to deal with the with the world without stress and anxiety.
50:48So, your brain will lay down new circuits without stress and anxiety, making you more flexible in your output and the way you deal with the world. So, it's literally like a way of training your system and your brain to be more flexible and how to and cope better with stressful situation without a stressful chemical.
51:07Does that make sense?
51:08>> Yes, it and it also literally inhibits the chemicals that would be causing that in the daytime if you had it while you're experiencing something that's an illusion and not real cuz you're suspended from it. Whoa, that's like >> It's It's important. You know why also it's important? You just made me think of something. You know people with PTSD?
51:25Yes. They have tons of noradrenaline when they're awake. So, they walk out and they see a mouse and they go, "Oh my god, this is terrifying. There's a mouse on the street." Because it reminds them of some hand grenade or something they saw in in Baghdad, right? So, this is what PTSD is about. It's taking a fear memory from you know, Baghdad or Afghanistan and bringing it to New Jersey or you know, to to to California. Yeah. We're not They're not supposed to do that, right?
51:51So, they have tons of noradrenaline in their system.
51:54And that's a problem because because of their noradrenaline, they can go into They cannot go into REM sleep because you need noradrenaline to shut off during REM sleep.
52:06And so, they they lack this ability to take their daily experiences and experience them in their dreams without anxiety.
52:15And so, that perpetuates the trauma and the anxiety they have during the day.
52:20Does that make sense? I want to make sure that you get this because this is I'm sometimes a bit convoluted.
52:24>> No, that's You explained that very well.
52:26>> is this, if you have tons of noradrenaline in your system, you prevent yourself from going to REM to have restful sleep and because you cannot go into REM without shutting down noradrenaline. Does that make sense?
52:41>> Yes, which and in REM is when you do the most rebuilding. When you're in REM, you That would in turn buffer you and make you less less anxious during the day.
52:50So, it becomes a vicious cycle for these people. You know what's crazy? So, do you know Louisa Nicola at all? No. I got to hook you up with Louisa. She's right here in New York City. She's a neurophysiologist, works with high performers, extremely extremely smart, loves every studying every part of the brain. So, there's some things you're saying that also like remind me of some conversations I've had with her. But the first time I talked with her was earlier in 2024.
53:19And without going through the whole litany, I I have been dealing with a lot of health problems for a few years and I had begun treatment to take care of that. It was something called eosinophilic asthma, which like crashed my whole immune system for 4 years. So, I started treatment in November 2023.
53:34Yeah. That treatment doesn't It wasn't supposed to really start to work until, you know, late February, early March 2024, right when I was talking with Louisa, and it was going to start working a little bit at a time. And hindsight being 20/20, it did it worked well. But, Louisa put me over the top with kind of like fixing my body from off of the very broken thing that it was. And one of the things she talked about is she came here to record a podcast with me. And so, she saw my place. And she saw the skylight [clears throat] out there. She saw the skylight over my bedroom. She saw I I love the lighting in this place cuz this
54:10is the only room that's not lit. She saw my big windows right there that let light in. I live right next to New York City, the most lit city, you know, in America. It's never off. And then she looked at the French doors on my bedroom. And she said, "Do you dream?"
54:25She asked me, "Do you dream?"
54:27I said, "It come to think of it, not really."
54:30No. She's like, "How much do you sleep?"
54:32I'm like, "I've got I put myself on a schedule. Now I sleep 7-8 hours a night." And she goes, "You're not getting 7 to 8 hours of good sleep.
54:39You're not getting REM sleep." And she started explaining this whole thing to me. And she she said, "The light that you are letting in, and then that to to combine that with the stress of your job and everything means you have cortisol."
54:50Like she kept it very high-level. "You have cortisol, at the very least, running through your system at all times. Your body's completely off the What's the word that starts with an S?"
55:01"Circadian rhythm." And all that. It starts with a C, I guess. And then she's like, "You need to sleep with an eye mask." Yeah.
55:08I was like, "What?" She's like, "Sleep with an eye mask." And I'm like, "That That feels like a little not heterosexual. I don't think I'm going to do that." She's like, "Fine. Have a problem." I'm like, "All right, it." I ordered an eye mask. I will never not sleep without one again. I I dream now every single night. And I dream like extensive dreams that would be required in the REM area. And it completely like whatever that back literally 50 to 60% was to start to begin feeling like myself again.
55:37>> Yeah. I'm telling you it wasn't fully overnight. Right. But throughout that year as the rest of my body got better from the other stuff, Yeah. the combination of sleeping 7 to 8 hours with the eye mask, having light out of the system, and like sleeping deeply, totally rebuilt my brain. I'm firing on a level that I haven't in years since before I got sick. And it was just that simple thing, and I'll thank her about that forever. But >> you just reminded me of that because some of the patterns you're discussing, which you're actually going even deeper with some of some of the chemicals that literally fire in your body when you're
56:08doing this. It's like, duh, how is that answer not in front of me the whole time, you know?
56:12>> It's important. Look, REM sleep is important. Like, another chemical that's that's being shut off during during REM is serotonin. So, Mhm. you have a structure called the raphe [clears throat] dorsal nucleus in the lower part part of the brain, again, produces serotonin.
56:26During REM sleep, serotonin stops firing altogether. Okay? So, you have no serotonin in the system during REM sleep. Now, you might ask, why's that important? Well, it's a kind of a replenishment, right? It's a replenishment for serotonin. Serotonin is the chemical involved in mood. It's involved in well-being, sense of stillness, sense of I feel good in my body. That's serotonin.
56:46Literally, I mean, when you have depression, you have typically low serotonin, and they give you a drug to boost serotonin. So, that's the standard therapy for it, right? So, if you if you're not getting REM sleep, and you're not replenishing serotonin, you get again, you have another problem. So, it shows you how important ser- REM sleep is. And cognitive tests, there's tons of studies.
57:07REM sleep, you have you have low REM, that means you have very low you have cognitive tasks, you will perform very poorly on cognitive tasks, IQ tasks. That's all REM.
57:20Now, mind you, you have you So, you sleep in force So, you have these stages of sleep, stage 1, 2, 3, and 4. And then, so, 4 is a deep sleep stage of sleep, and then you have REM, right?
57:34But it's important to keep in mind, Julian, that it's not like you have So, 1/3 So, one So, let's say first cycle, you have, let's say This not This is a 90-minute cycles. The first cycles, you have tons of deep deep sleep. So, in the first part of the night night, you have a tons of deep sleep. Okay? And you have maybe a couple of minutes of REM, a few minutes of REM.
57:56And then you go through another 90-minutes minute cycle, REM expands a bit more. And then third cycle, REM more. And then by the morning, you have maybe 30 minutes of REM. Now, I'll tell you why this is important. It's important because it shows us if I only sleep until 4:00 a.m.
58:12or 3:00 a.m., I would have a tons of deep sleep, meaning I'm physically okay, I can run from a tiger, I can sprint, I won't get an ankle injury. However, my REM sleep is still very deprived because I didn't get from 4:00 to 7:00, which I'm supposed to. So, I didn't merely just strip my sleep of entirety like 50% of REM. I maybe I removed 75% of REM.
58:35And And all the emotional and cognitive benefits of REM. Do you see that crucial point?
58:40>> Yes.
58:40>> Meaning, you can't just sleep until 4:00 and then run to the airport and think, "Oh, I got 50% of REM, I'm good." No.
58:47You can run, all right? You can maybe do some sports.
58:50But you your your mind and your emotions will be all over the place.
58:53>> It's exponential. It It It ramps up That makes so much sense. I always wonder like when I get up to piss at like 2:30 in the morning, I've had little dreams. I'm like, "Ah, what was that?"
59:03You know, like thinking about all I'm taking a piss and all that.
59:05And then when I come back and then fall asleep again, that's when I have the wild dreams. Like last night, that's exactly what happened. I And it wasn't even I probably got up to piss at like 4:30, so I slept another hour and a half and it was like crazy like it turned into this crazy story and everything.
59:23And I'm like, now I'm you're talking, I'm like, that's usually what happens.
59:27So, that makes a lot of sense. So, we're dreaming more when that happens.
59:30>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
59:33>> It's all the REM, man. REM, you got to have REM. REM is so important. But, again, you have to have deep sleep as well, so you can't skip the first night, either.
59:39But, uh these stages are important for for us Yeah, for well-being and Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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