0:01I don't know how you never get scared doing what you do.
0:04>> I sometimes get scared.
0:05>> Sometimes.
0:06>> Sometimes.
0:06>> Do you show it on the outside or is it strictly internalized?
0:09>> Yeah. I got caught in a military coup in Eer and I was definitely very scared and I showed it. I was visibly shaken the whole time I was there.
0:18>> Yeah, that wasn't that long ago, right?
0:19>> No, that was like two years ago. August two years ago.
0:22>> What happened there again? you were on the ground doing a different documentary and then got >> it was an episode of trafficked uh from I think from the beginning first season of trafficked I started pitching national geographic a story on Nair because I was first of all it's one of my favorite parts of the world it's the Sahel region of Africa the southern Sahara desert region it's been sort of the center of all sorts of trafficking human trafficking gold trafficking guns um everything you can think of and gold trafficking is now fueling which is the story we wanted to investigate there is how is go how gold trafficking is
0:58actually fueling um terrorist organizations and for the longest time I kept telling national geographic it's such a good story story the United States has two big base military bases there the biggest drone um um military base outside of the United States is in Nishair nobody knows a lot about it >> wait the biggest drone military base >> military base outside of the United States was in Agadez in um in in Nair which is right in the Sahel region. And this is because the US is fighting against these terrorist organizations and trying to keep them >> um to not grow bigger and more powerful and potentially all of these groups. The
1:36ultimate goal is to to attack the US, >> right?
1:39>> Um so to prevent another 9/11 and I kept telling Nio that this was such an amazing story and so relevant to us. And so I wanted to really sort of look at the gold mining and how the gold is actually trafficked and how it gets into the hands of groups like al-Qaeda and ISIS and Bokoh Haram. And uh I spent you know months putting on a plan and every time Nigio would say it was just too risky. This is one of the most dangerous places on earth essentially. Again you have all those terrorist groups right there. You have kidnapping squads. Um you know there were three I believe it was three US soldiers who had been
2:14killed there um a few years before recently.
2:17>> Yeah. Um soldiers that were there as part of this operation to fight against the terrorist groups. And eventually I think season 4 we finally convinced Natio we have a plan. Um there was a president a democratically elected president at the time that had good connections with the United States. The US had soldiers there. We'd been training the local military and they had agreed, the government, the Nigerian government had agreed to allow us into the country and to let us do our work and provide a provide as a military convoy.
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3:13>> So, we'd go into this very remote region where all the mining is happening and where all the trafficking is happening to, very dangerous region, but we'd go with a military escort, which is not at all what I'm used to doing, right? I don't usually travel with security, but in this case, it was really the only way that I could ensure a way in and out safely out of that place. And so, we did. And um [snorts] we spent it was sort of a eight-hour journey out in the desert. These this is complete desert.
3:41So there's no roads, right? You're and we had it was two or three of two cars of ours and then four trucks with military soldiers on top. Uh all heavily armed and trained and it's yeah an 8 hour journey. Every time we stopped for sort of a bathroom break or snacks or stretch your legs, the the soldiers you could see, they'd get out of their trucks and they sort of do a perimeter, armed perimeter around us. Um, you know, binoculars and the whole deal to see if there's any cars coming. Again, uh, heavy on terrorist groups and kidnapping squads and but we managed to make it safely and it was amazing. It was sort
4:19of one of my favorite days I've ever had in my life. uh where we spent the day.
4:23We got inside one of the m the mines and this is sort of they're dug by hand and dynamite explosions and you go >> dug by hand.
4:34>> Yeah. First there's they they explode it. They with dynamite and then they start like basically digging it. And um >> can we pull up an image of this de while Mariana is talking as well?
4:44>> Nair gold mining.
4:46>> Yeah. I'm terrified to say the name of that country for obvious reasons. say it [laughter] the wrong way, you know.
4:51>> Ner, it's not Nigeria, which is how much people get it confused.
4:55>> Yeah.
4:55>> Yeah. It's sort of that. Yeah. Um without Yeah. So, one of those, the top left corner one, that's sort of what we went down, my team and myself. But this the one we went was 100 ft um deep and it gets really claustrophobic.
5:11>> I was going to say it's only that wide, but it's 100 feet deep.
5:13>> Oh, yeah. And it is more or less that wide at one point. And you went in that Oh, yeah. My team and I Yeah, we did.
5:18And at one point you have to go I sort of had to go with my butt on the ground and sort of slide down.
5:24>> Oh, hell no.
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5:59>> We get to the bottom and it's a bit wider and there's a team of people.
6:03There were like three or four miners picking at the wall basically 100 ft deep picking at the wall trying to get the little pieces that have gold in them to then carry them in huge bags up. But there's sort of no security procedures, right? These guys are doing this in flip-flops, by the way. And they told us we got there because it was an eight hour journey. We got there, I think it was like 300 p.m. And as we are filming in the at the bottom, they tell us, "Oh, by the way, we forgot to tell you, but at 4 p.m. is when the dynamite explosions start around us." And there's a high risk of this whole thing
6:41collapsing. So, you know, it took us about half hour, 30, 40 minutes to go down. And they said, "So, we have about 20 minutes to get out up carrying all the gear and everything." and it was the fastest we've ever gone up um we've ever moved in our lives. But we got up and within like two minutes after being out of the of the mine, you hear a huge explosion and all over there's they're like basically opening up more mines and and getting the gold out. Um so it was an amazing day and we ended up camping out in the desert. It was me, my whole team, the only woman surrounded by by men, the soldiers and my team and the
7:16miners. And um and then eventually uh it was we woke up the next morning, we ate goat. They cooked some goat for us the night before. We all had massive diarrhea during the night, but I was still on cloud9 because this is really and I knew like how many people in the world have experienced this and it's such it's exactly the kind of work I like to do.
7:36>> Just quick question on it. So you had gotten to capture what >> Oh yeah, we filmed it all. Yeah, we filmed it all. We filmed interviews with minors. They explained to us how uh the the terrorist groups come over and they get buy gold from them or sometimes don't even pay. They just sort of take the gold away from them and that's how they're um funding their operations in the region. Do you ever for a story like that, do you ever have a goal besides just, you know, sunlight is a disinfectant, get the word out there and then let hopefully good people do something with it to change it or do you
8:10ever actually go beyond that yourself?
8:11Like, hey, I want this story to be able to show X, Y, and Z because that'll literally force, I don't know, legislation or something like that.
8:20>> I think I think it's the same thing, right? It is shining a light, but hopefully by shining a light, you're changing legislation. and you're making the world better in some way. You know, it's a bit of a cliche, but it's sort of the cherry on top for every journalist, right? You do the stories. It's not a sacrifice to do the stories I do. I do it because I love it. And I'm I find I think that I'm very very privileged to be able to sort of wander in the worlds that I do. Um I think there is a little bit sometimes those journalists that like to talk about the sacrifices and the danger they put themselves out there
8:51in order to be able to shine a light on these important subject matters. You'll never hear that from me because I know I'm very privileged. It's a luxury to do what I do. But of course, it's the cherry on top always if you can actually um make some sort of change. And the the fact if your work can have an impact.
9:07And so for us, yeah, for me in this story particularly was to explain to the world what the heck the United States is doing in this remote country in Africa.
9:16Um and to understand why it is actually important to have military bases and American presence in places as remote as this. Um and uh and and so yeah, so I was very happy that we finally were able to capture it after years and years of trying to convince National Geographic to let us go and then suddenly we did and we were able to film it all. It was it was amazing and and know that very few people in the world had ever been able to get this on camera. So of course I was very happy.
9:42>> All in a day.
9:43>> All in a day. Next morning, wake up, head back to Agadez, which is the town um closest to where we were. And we arrive. We're And we're out of service, by the We don't there's no cell phone service. And we're arriving in Agade and again we have a twocar convoy plus the trucks with the military and our fixer who's a local journalist who was actually from Mali but uh we couldn't find a journalist from Nijair that wanted to do the story with us. So we had to bring this guy from Mali who had done many stories in the region. No we couldn't.
10:13>> Wow.
10:14>> But this guy had done stories in the region and and came with us. Amazing guy called Baba. And suddenly I hear Baba in the front car in the convoy in a walkie-talkie telling us something that sounded like there's no cook in Nyame.
10:28Nyame is the capital of Nijair. And we were like what? He's talking about a cook. Is he talking about dinner? We're so confused. And then it sort of after he repeated it several times, we realized there's a coup in Yam. So there's a coup, a military coup. They deposed the the elected democratically elected president and the military had taken over the country and >> the same guys protecting you >> and or not them and essentially what happened is that immediately we lose our milit we we arrived our they dropped us off at the hotel and they said okay the country is in disarray right now goodbye and left
11:06us and so we were abandoned essentially in a hotel that had been built in the 80s when Gaddafi visited Nijair. So, as you can imagine, very rundown. There was one security guy at the gate that spent most of the day sleeping and um and yeah, in a region surrounded by um a lot of danger and we had to try to figure out how the hell are we and they closed the airspace and border. So, we had to figure out how are we going to get out of here? Um and uh and then suddenly they started evacuations from the capital, but we couldn't get to the capital. It was too dangerous. It's three-day drive. It was too dangerous.
11:44And everybody told us absolutely do not do that. I actually tried to hire a human trafficker. [laughter] We said, >> he's like, well, I am an expert in this.
11:54>> I I we were interviewing this guy and I was like, actually, brilliant plan.
11:59[snorts] If we pay you, will you uh smuggle us out of the country? And uh he said, "Absolutely not. We were Americans and we were high targets." He said, "Yeah, you can't pay me enough. Like, you're high targets. You're Americans."
12:11Absolutely not.
12:12>> And uh and yeah, it was the beginning of a huge ordeal. And >> so what did you do? How long were you there?
12:18>> It's a good story. Um >> we got time.
12:20>> We were there for nine days. Uh what happened is that there was a sort of the escalation of a possible war coming because the West African country surrounding Nijair um had said that if they didn't uh put the president back in power that they would attack they would invade Nijair to make sure that the president was back and uh the Vagner group and Russia and its allies were saying that if they did that they would then invade they would send Vagner Vagnner group in and it would start it would be start a war essentially. And uh and again we were with no protection, no way out. And so it got every day you'd see it was
13:05getting worse and the situation was getting worse and worse. And it was particularly bad on day three when you'd see the French, the British, the Portuguese where I'm from, the Spanish all getting evacuated. Uh there were journalists, American journalists who were in Yam at the time. um a couple of American journalists that I that I knew of because I was in in touch with people that worked with them who were there doing the same story but not in a place as remote as us and they were being evacuated but we had no we weren't [snorts] >> and this it was an interesting reason why essentially the United States
13:39refused to call it a military coup because the moment they did they would have to remove all their military personnel and their um all the American personnel from the country and which would mean the loss of millions of dollars in the country, right?
13:56>> Yeah.
13:56>> And so they were trying and trying to do negotiate to figure out a way how to get President Bazoom back in power and and just take care of it themselves and they just weren't able to. So it wasn't after I think it was like a month later that that they declared it a military coup and eventually had to do away with their bases and lose all the investment. But because we were Americans, um, and we were very close. We were like 2 miles from the this big military base, we actually went to the the base and tried to contact [clears throat] them and talk to them, but they said, "I'm sorry.
14:30Unless there's a war that breaks out or you're actually in active danger or you know, you're kidnapped by ISIS. Uh, we aren't able to bring you into the base right right now." And we kept explaining like, "You do understand that that might be too late, right? if you're not, we're seven Americans here. We need shelter.
14:48And um and they refused to. And um and then we had um with all the work that I do, we always obviously have insurance and have an evacuation company that works with us, part of the insurance package.
15:01>> An evacuation company.
15:02>> Yeah. If [ __ ] hits the fan, there's always a place, a number you call a company that helps you out of there. But not in our case. We call the evacuation company. and we were recording all of this and uh and they basically didn't have a plan in place and uh weren't um weren't psyched on getting us out. I mean, did I mean no matter how many times we ask, okay, if the war starts, do you have an an idea? All this is in the film, by the way. Do you have an idea of where we should go or give us some pointers on what to do in this situation? And are you deploying people or is somebody coming to get us? I mean,
15:38we're paying you a lot of money for situations exactly like this. and they just didn't have an answer. We realized that they were completely useless.
15:44>> I hope you got that money back.
15:46>> We did. We did not get that money back and we ended up actually actually insurance helped pay for what it was eventually our evacuation. We found another evacuation company. So my husband who's also a journalist >> and uh co-owns Muk Media with me and other a couple few other partners. MCM Media is a production company that makes traffic. Um he and my team in LA were 24 hours trying to figure out a way to get us out and eventually found another evacuation company with two pilots who were crazy enough to agree to get on a plane.
16:18>> Hell yeah.
16:18>> And fly [clears throat] to Tunis to Agadez and and come in the middle of the night to rescue us. And I know this is getting long, but this is the best part of the story.
16:30>> You got me on the edge of my seat. So, [laughter] so they told us uh we get the call and it's this evacuation company and they told us, "Okay, we've got two pilots.
16:39We've got a plane which happens to be a G5, which is the most expensive private small plane out there, which is a little bit of a sort of a whiplash, right, after 10 days stuck in this."
16:49>> Uh, but we have a J5, these two pilots, uh, they are coming at 4:00 a.m., middle of the night. They're going to land for 20 minutes, and they only have 20 minutes on the ground. So if you're not there and if you're not in the plane within those 20 minutes, they're going to leave without you, right? And the whole team in LA is tracking the flight map. You know, the whole thing is set up. We no one we don't sleep. I remember receiving this news and like uh sort of starting to tear up, but not yet because so much could go wrong that we weren't sure if this was going to work or not.
17:24>> And [snorts] and eventually uh meanwhile, couldn't forget this detail. Uh while we were stuck and trying to figure out a way out, I'd also gone to the airport. I think it was like day two or three. I'd gone to the airport to the local airport, very small little place. And I met the manager of the airport, a guy called Kadar. And I started talking to him and I asked Kad, "Do you have children?" And he said, "Yes." And showed me the photos and I showed him a photo of my son and I said, "Look, it's his birthday next Friday and uh he's at camp." And usually we my husband and I have this tradition where
17:53we pick him up from camp. It's his performance camp and he does his performance. It also happens to be his birthday and it's very important for me to be there. As you can imagine, traveling mother, I just I need to be there this day. So, if you hear of any planes taking off or coming in, please let us know. Um, and he started texting me every day and said, "Still nothing.
18:15I'm sorry." And then he found out that there was this plane coming and he texted me and he said, "I've got here some notice of a plane coming. Is this for you?" And I said, "Yes, but I wasn't sure. I was afraid maybe he was working with the military and I said yes but you know yes but don't let's not share it uh yet and anyway get to the airport the next morning having not slept at all we were all so nervous we had a plan in place we had actually we had our flack jackets with us in case there was shootings on our way to the airport which is about 20 minutes away um we had a whole plan if if we were shot at what
18:53to do and we get to the airport. The the airplane is delayed at this point. So, it's already uh the sun is rising. It's like 5:30 a.m. And we get there and there's like a ton of military at the airport, which was not supposed to be the case. It was supposed to be empty.
19:08And the manager, Kader, said he would be there to ensure that we'd get out safely. Um, but there was not supposed to be any military, but it was kind of like that Argo movie, right, Ben Affleck, where we get there and there it is. I was thinking >> and the military is there and they have a huge problem with us. They don't want us to leave and they start creating problems and uh and they say we don't have the correct paperwork because the plane was going to Dubai after we're showing them the visas. They're just creating problems. They just don't want us to leave.
19:40>> And eventually they said okay um you guys can leave but the Malian guy can't.
19:47the guy from my fixer.
19:49>> And this is the moment I'm on the phone with my husband and I tell him, "Look, um, and we can start seeing the plane coming in."
19:56>> And I'm said, I said, "Look, um, this guy, I I'm the owner, co-owner of the company. I'm the executive producer of the show. I'm going to let everybody else leave, but I'm not leaving without without Baba. So, I'm staying behind."
20:10And it was really hard for me. This was really, really hard. [snorts] My husband had the most amazing reaction, which was I would do the exact same thing if I was in your shoes. And as much as this hurts me, I I know that's the right decision to make. And as we're having this really difficult conversation, my husband says, "Wait, wait. I can see the names of the pilots are Portuguese.
20:32I think there's a chance that they are Portuguese." Plane lands, the pilots start coming out. I run to the pilot, the first one that comes out, and I ask him, "Are you Portuguese?" And he says, "Yes." So then in Portuguese the military arrives. They're around us and in Portuguese I tell him look where we explain the situation where journal team of journalists there's one guy who doesn't have the right paperwork the visa because he has an African passport to go to Dubai but my team in LA is taking care of it and when we're on the flight it's going to come through. And this is like him saying yes to this. I
21:06knew could he could risk his flight license, you know.
21:09>> And he says, um, and he thinks about it for a minute and the military guy starts yelling at him and saying, "You can't take him. You can't take him." And the pilot, um, you know, turns guy and says, "No, no, no. I take I take full responsibility. He's on my flight and he's coming in." So, we are all allowed in the plane. I'm the last one. I'm I'm coming. My whole team is inside. I'm the last one just making sure everything's okay. going in and suddenly I hear my name being called, Mariana. And I look back and it's Kadder, the airport manager, uh, who looks at who'd been trying very hard and yelling. He'd
21:43actually been yelling at the military, too, and telling them that they couldn't do this to us. And he says, "Mariana."
21:49And I look back and he says, "Um, say happy birthday to your son."
21:53>> Oh my god.
21:54>> Yeah.
21:55>> And that was a moment where I couldn't keep it together anymore. and we all went into the plane and we all I still get very emotional talking about it but we all lost it >> lost it and yeah I think it was obviously relief um it was a really tense situation but also a lot of guilt you know thinking that for us it was really difficult nine days but for people like Kader the miners the amazing people that I met there it was a very uncertain and shitty future without democracy and you know with terrorist organizations that are growing and committing horrific attacks X. It's It was It was tough. It was really hard.
22:31>> Well, it's clear throughout your career and what you've done, like you obviously have a huge heart, but I'm always amazed by that, too, because you know, when you go to all these different places around the world doing the stories that you do, you're going to meet people you love in the shittiest situations, >> and you're going to have to leave at some point. And this obviously was like a a movie script that ended okay, like leaving. But like either way, you're going to have to leave these places.
22:58>> And I've seen it with other friends of mine as well. I've covered some stories around the world. The saddest part is like >> you'll meet someone who's just pure and great and was just born in the wrong place >> and you become friends with them, you leave. Yeah.
23:11>> And then you find out a month later they died or their family was killed. And I know you've had that a ton in your career. It's like the fact that you're not The fact that you're not like I don't want to overstate this, but like numb to that in some way at that point really speaks to like how much you care about these stories too because you've had to see it so many times.
23:31>> Thank you, Julian. Yeah, I I really of course I do care. And uh I don't think I'd be doing this work if I was numb to it. I think I do it because I because I care. is uh yeah and that's been I think most people think that after you know almost 20 years covering black markets doing stories about sex trafficking and drugs and guns and all sort of the deepest darkest corners of the world that I had that I would have very sort of dark view of humanity and and it's really quite the opposite >> quite the opposite >> yeah quite the opposite the majority of times the people that I meet are people just like you and I
24:04>> who because of lack of opportunities because of the you know horrific inequality that exists in the end up um on the wrong side of law.
24:13Exactly. You know, and and I I always say there's a line that I really love, which is the wheel of history turns and where and when you're born decides whether you get lifted or smashed by it, you know, and um and and it's so true for so many people out there. Um, and that's what, you know, whether I'm interviewing a cocaine a kid, a 16-year-old kid who carries cocaine on his back or a a Jamaican scammer, um, when you actually find out about why they became, um, why they do what they do, it's really impossible not to see yourself in their situation, understand that if it was you, you'd probably be
24:50doing the same thing.
24:52>> Yeah. There there's a story I've told a few times on the podcast before that always hits me, but very similar kind of thing. My buddy Josh from college, he grew up in the projects in the Bronx, >> and he was really lucky. He had two great parents, both at home. His mom was a teacher at one of the local schools right there.
25:12>> And you know, that's something a lot of the kids there don't have. You know, they have a broken home, one one parent in the household working three jobs just to pay the bills. And so he's a brilliant guy and he was lucky enough when he was in middle school to kind of get into like one of the higher level programs like classes which then when he was finishing 8th grade afforded him the opportunity to do a program where during the week he got to go to school like out in the suburbs in Connecticut. So, he told me this story that always stuck with me years ago where he said his first I I guess he was like out there
25:48full-time or staying with the family and then would come home on breaks. I think that's what it was. So, he came home maybe it was Thanksgiving break the first year, 9th grade when he when when he went to do that program. and he was walking back like towards this block and across the block he saw a kid there's a friend of his that he grew up with on the corner you know 14 15 years old clearly a part of the drug gang now >> so he went over there said what's up to him and his friend was like happy to see him but also like what are you doing here kind of thing >> and they talked for a couple minutes and
26:24his friend who obviously by the law is doing something long.
26:30His friend had the presence of mind to be like, "Josh, you don't belong here.
26:35>> You're doing a great job.
26:36>> You're representing all of us. Walk across the street and do not walk back this way."
26:41>> And there are people who might see that same kid in a courtroom 15 years later on, you know, brought up on [ __ ] 50 charges or whatever and be like, "Throw him away forever." But I look at that and I'm not like I never want to be misheard and be like, "I'm going to excuse all crime that happens." But I look at that and I I always try to ask myself, how does someone get there?
27:00Well, if they weren't born into a situation like me, living in the suburbs with two parents and they had X, Y, and Z in their environment, yeah, I'd probably get there, too.
27:09>> You know, and you see that in every single story you've ever done, like to an extreme.
27:13>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I really do. And I do think that empathy is such a important part of um being a journalist, but being a person in general, right?
27:21particularly nowadays where >> there seems to be no space for different opin difference of opinion or nuance. Um and and yeah, we seem to have forgotten the importance of understanding the wise. Not just asking about the what's what is happening but understanding why is this happening? Why does this person become a traffic or a scammer or you know a pirate whatever whatever it is or or a drug dealer like that kid. Um yeah so that's a huge part of the work that I do for sure. How do you not when you see how widespread so many things are? By the way, in our own country too, we have a lot of problems
27:58>> and you've covered those stories, but like when you go all over the world or all over America and you just see these these underbellies that are once you pull on the weed, you realize how much bigger it is than you first thought. How do you not lose hope?
28:11>> You know what I mean? Like, how do you not sit back and go, "God damn it, we're never going to fix this stuff."
28:16>> Yeah. Well, because I do think that it's the systems that are broken and not the people, right? And that's really the crux for me. And with all my work, what I'm trying to always show is that's why when people ask me, you know, we do the majority of our interviews with people with masks. We're very careful about not showing their identities or locations.
28:35We travel with a bag of masks and long sleeve t-shirts and gloves and hats and anything I need to make sure I'm protecting these sources. The reason why is because I'm not trying to get any particular one person in trouble because the problem uh that you know that black market is going to continue existing whether this person is in prison or not.
28:56Again, it's not it's not that these people are broken. It's these systems that are broken and there's a lot of people actually profiting from these systems being broken as we all know. And so my end goal always is to to sort of show how this system is broken and try to figure out, you know, by showing what's wrong with it. Um, possibly starting a discussion on how we can fix it. You know, why is it that one of the stories we did for season one of Traffic actually and still one of my favorite ones was about gun trafficking and how I think something like 90% of guns found at crime scenes in Mexico.
29:32um which as you know has a huge problem with violence. Thousands of people dead, thousands of people disappeared >> and 90% of the guns fi found are American guns. So we talk a lot about the drugs and I've covered this extensively. Obviously I've been in fentinel labs and meth super labs in the jungles of cinaloa, cocaine labs, all of it. But we don't I don't think we talk enough about how that those drug trafficking organizations can only operate because of the guns that they that they bring from the United States, right? It's there's no it doesn't they don't operate in under a justice system. It's the the the justice
30:12is is how much gun power you have.
30:15>> Um and and and so they need those guns in order to be able to continue doing their drug trafficking. And all of those guns come from the United States. So, one of the stories we did was how easy is it to get guns in the United States?
30:28How do the cartels get it down to the US? Who's profiting from this? And uh and again, it's it's the systems that are broken. And often um yeah, I think we forget we forget that.
30:39>> So, for that episode, you got to actually like do the process and see how it happens.
30:43>> Oh my god, it was that it's one of my f favorites because the access we got was insane. So, we started um the first shoot we did was in close to downtown Los Angeles and we filmed with a woman that they called Blondie >> um who is American, American citizen of Mexican descent, but who >> she had blonde hair.
31:03>> She did um and uh and Lagua they called her uh which is blondie and and she basically was responsible. She got paid really good money to carry guns across the United States. So she'd go, we went to this guy's house also in undisclosed location in LA and we saw it was incredible. We saw a room full of AK-47s, AR-15s, Glocks, the whole the whole thing. And many of them, by the way, that he told us he'd bought from the LAPD. Guns that the LAPD confiscates, this is in our film. LAPD confiscates and then they buy them back from LAPD. Um, some of them >> like at the like they just walk into the LAPD and be like, "Here's 100." No, they
31:46have contacts within corrupt LAPD that gave them guns.
31:49>> Oh my god.
31:50>> Yeah, it was um um Yeah, it was sort of a reveal. I mean, I I'd heard this before, but to get it to capture it on camera, and he showed us which one and showed us sort of there was one in particular that looked super professional. It had a scope. I believe it was an AR-15 that he said he had gotten from some Marines in San Diego.
32:09So, it was all crazy. Um, and then we saw him putting those guns into the trunk of this woman, the blondiey's car.
32:19And then we uh we weren't able to follow her as she crossed into Mexico, but we met her the next day in Mexico already and saw the exact same guns being given to the buyer in Mexico. just drove right across the border, >> rode across and actually we filmed at the border a couple of days later and saw as much control as there is on what's coming north. There's no control as what's going south that nobody stops cars. There's no no rarely does a car get stopped a car heading south. And we saw it and we filmed it actually. So she just drove across with a car loaded with AK-47s and other guns. Sold it to this
32:57one guy. that one guy. Then um we filmed him selling his guns and then we ended up on an island in um in the Gulf um um of Mexico that was also incredible with a guy. We we went [laughter] on a tourist boat to this island where one of the biggest arms dealer was going to agree to be interviewed. I'd met him the night before, by the way, without cameras. And and he was not he's one, you know, some people you meet and they warm up to you immediately. Others not like that. And this guy was not warm and fuzzy whatsoever. He was uh he was questioning whether I was um the DEA or I was actually a journalist. I was
33:37showing him my Instagram page and some of my previous work and he's like that doesn't mean [ __ ] That don't doesn't mean [ __ ] to me. Like how do I still you could have made that on your way here. Like that means [ __ ] all to me. But he we have really good connections in the the cartel world. I work with a Mexican journalist who has incredible connections and he'd sort of been told by his boss that he needed to give us this interview. So he reluctantly agreed to meet us the next day in this island and we get there.
34:04>> So you even went after you were after he was like all over you like >> Yeah. And he told me like if you show up tomorrow and you're being t traded and and even if you're not a if you are in fact a journalist but who knows law enforcement might be trailing you you know like they did for El Chapo when Sean Pen met El Chapo >> you're dead either way. Like I don't care. I don't care. Yeah.
34:27>> And you're like get me on that boat.
34:29>> Yeah. [laughter] As fast as possible.
34:30>> Built different. You're built different.
34:33And uh the next morning we show up on an island and there he was and he was like he had some of the guns with him. He was selling it to a guy there. He was telling us how he sells in at one point he sold a 100 AK-47s to a member of the CJNG.
34:49>> Oh that's nice.
34:50>> Who was fighting against the the Seno cartel at the time there was this was um you know before the Chapitos got arrested. So there was a huge fight between the two organ and before Alena was killed. So huge infighting between the two cartels and and he was, you know, making tons of money just selling guns to both sides, by the way. And and he told us like, "You were being watched all around us. You see these mountains around us like this is cameras." Yeah.
35:15You're being watched right now, so we're making sure.
35:17>> And I asked him, I said, "Last night you didn't believe me, but you agreed to meet me here now. Do you believe me now?" He was like, "No, but you're being watched. And whatever happens, if you betray us, you're dead." So, >> and you weren't in this situation.
35:29You're not scared a little bit.
35:31>> No, I you you know, [laughter] >> she's like, I [clears throat] was good.
35:35I I I I think most times there's sort of a fight inside my brain between curiosity and fear and curiosity always wins and sometimes that's great and sometimes that's not >> but in this situation it was good because we we got incredible access and yeah and then we fl followed the trail of drugs gone sorry all the way to Caloa and filmed more crazy [ __ ] so it was an incredible episode highly recommend it.
35:59>> Yeah that sounds amazing.
36:01>> Yeah. And I I mean it's also like people are really cynical about this too when you literally see something exposed like Operation Fast and Furious which we've talked about a ton where it's like the government was literally paying for it.
36:12>> And there's another guy who maybe at some point will come on the podcast.
36:15I've teased this a few times over the years but >> you know basically this dude I got connected to him through someone else I know and he kind of scares me. Nice guy.
36:26But, you know, he says he's not in the CIA, but you know, he's been in the CIA for 50 years. And the way he got in was the way I understand is he was like a bartender or something like that in California dating one of the Felix Ariano brothers nieces.
36:42>> And the CIA started watching him and they're [clears throat] like, "Ah, we like this guy."
36:45>> So, they they show up and they're like, "Hey, we're CIA. We think you'd make a great knock." Whatever that is.
36:51Obviously, he didn't know at the time.
36:54you know, we we want you to go down to Mexico and do this. He's like, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm not listen, I'm not a narc." Like, um, they're like like, "We don't want you to rat on them. Are you kidding me?" No, we want you to work with them. Be inside them. Do everything that they do. Go where they go. Like, where our job is not to stop them. And when I hear stuff like this, and then I have a guy like Matt Hedger sitting there whose job it was to do that as well in CIA, I'm like, you know, do they do they really want to stop these organizations? Do they want to stop the gun running like that or is there some
37:25sort of calculation that like hey >> this I'm talking about like the US government here this is the cost this is cost of freedom right here >> and you know these guns got to go across this terror has to exist in other places but we'll control it from the inside and use it to our benefit for the worst terror >> around the world like am I crazy to think that that might be a little bit of the calculation >> I don't know I think that there's a lot that we [snorts] don't know I I think that the for example I mean we all know because of recent reporting something that no one knew about until recently
37:59which is that the CIA is apparently operating inside Mexico. We I mean this was never disclosed. It was the car bombing in close to the Mexico City airport recently which has been reported was fully happen was done be by the CIA or planned and done by the CIA. There were the two CIA operatives that died in Celo after coming from visiting one of those super meth labs that I've visited in the past as well. And so there's a lot more uh involvement of the American government.
38:31I don't think they're not trying I don't think they're trying to stop the guns flowing south because that's not in their interest.
38:37>> I do and I think they should be u because ultimately that violence comes back to us. Um, but I do think there have been multiple administrations trying to stop the flow of drugs to the United States. I just think that it's not being done the way that it should. I think it's been I mean, it's not me. Everybody's knows it's an utter failure, right?
38:59Millions, billions of dollars lost on this drug war that has had zero consequence whatsoever on American lives. We, in fact, are seeing more and more people die every year. I mean last year actually there was a first time there was a I think it says 17% decrease in fentinyl overdoses but there's something much worse coming out now called nidazines >> trank >> tran dope I've also done a story for season 5 but even I mean tran dope is terrible because it's the tranquilizer mixed with um with fentinil and it's creates these wounds which we filmed in Kensington Pennsylvania these wounds that look like it's like open wounds and
39:33people it's just horrific >> hey guys if you haven't already subscribed please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge huge help. Thank you.
39:40>> But there's a new version, a new sort of synthetic opiate called Nidazines that people are Nidiaine. Yeah.
39:47>> And uh there's still not enough laws against it. So now the cartel is sort of really doubling down on these new synthetic drugs because it's not as dangerous for them um to to make them as it is with fentinel because anyone that's making fentinel right now has a target on their backs. Is this a similar thing to fentanyl where they're getting precursors from other places?
40:10>> Precursors from China.
40:11>> Oh, this is also coming from China.
40:13That's nice.
40:13>> Yeah, I believe so. I Yeah, I'm quite sure. Yes. I was just thinking because I haven't done a story on nights, but I was recently >> How do you spell it? Night nazines.
40:21>> N I t a ze n.
40:23>> Okay.
40:23>> Um it's funny. So, I've been reporting uh covering the opiate crisis since the very beginning. The first story I ever did um on this was in 2008 and it was about Oxycottton in Florida.
40:36>> Oh, you were early early.
40:37>> Early. Yeah, early early. Um >> Good for you.
40:40>> Nobody knew what Oxycottton was at the time. I mean, if you're a doctor, you did or terminal ill cancer patient, but they did you didn't realize what this what was happening. And um it was we were working at the time at Current TV which was Algor television station and had read a little article in Miami Herald about how all these pain clinics in South Florida uh were being inundated with like lines of people out the door that were coming from Appalachia, West Virginia, Kentucky, I mean as far out as even California, people coming to buy drugs there. And why is it why are they coming from so far away to buy drugs from this
41:18pain clinic? These clinics had security guards out front. They had surveillance cameras. I mean, not your traditional pain clinic, right?
41:26>> And so we started investigating this and it we did a doc about it called the Oxygotten Express. Um which sort of we made lots of contact sources and then eventually our sources in law enforcement and on the street started telling me that hey there's something now they're harder to get oxycottton.
41:43getting into heroin. It was the boom of heroin that we also filmed. And then I did one of the first stories ever on fentinel, even before fentinyl was known too. Um, this was before Prince died of a fentinel overdose. It was in 2004 15.
41:59>> Wow.
41:59>> Yeah. Also, right at the beginning or I went to I was working at Fusion, another TV station at the time. I went to my editor and I told him, "Hey, I want to do a story about this new drug hitting the streets called Fentinel." He said, "What? Nobody's heard about this." How did you first hear about it?
42:13>> Because I have a really good contact in law enforcement and on the street and they've been telling me there's this new thing and it started also as a a drug for terminal cancer patients much like oxycottton and uh but it's being abused on the street now and and so I started con trying to convince my editor that this was an important story. He eventually agreed. When our story came out, I think came out in March. The year before had been the first year ever, that one state, it was New Hampshire, the only state where there were more deaths from fentinel than heroin. And at that time, it was just one state. Again,
42:49nobody had heard about fentinel. But I traveled to Mexico to Sinoa and interviewed a member of the Senoloa cartel showing us he had a kilo of heroin mixed with fentinel. At the time, it was in pure fentinel. They would mix heroin with fentinel.
43:05and um and he told us how they had hired the Sino cartel had hired a chemist in Col in Colombia. They paid him, I think it was like 40 or $50,000 to teach them how to make fentinel using Chinese prec precursors. And uh and I remember at one point the Marines show up and the guy there's like this one kilo of uh heroin and mixed with fentinel right next to to me and the marine show up and the guy takes off and then I'm like sitting there. [laughter] There's a shot of me with the one key heroin being like, "What the [ __ ] If the Marines show up, here I am with this uh what do I do now?" Uh >> you pull out the Instagram and be like,
43:45"Journalist."
43:46>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Press press pass.
43:48[laughter] I promise I have nothing to do with this. Um and but that was right at the beginning and it was sort of the best 50k uh dollars that the you know that the cartel has ever spent. Uh and they were that and that's why the cenol cartel were sort of the be the ones who really started the whole fentinel trade. I mean they were very early on because they realized that Americans were abusing pharmaceutical fentinel and they were like oh we can make this in our labs and we don't heroin is made as you know it's comes from puppies you have to depend on the seasons and how that season does and all that cultivation and and this [ __ ]
44:30we can make it in a lab with some chemicals that cost nothing coming from China so we're going to make it and yeah >> you ever read Ben Westo's book Fentanol Inc. no >> on this.
44:38>> No.
44:39>> Wrote a great book about it. I I had him in here a couple months back, but >> he like fell into this story. He explained on the podcast how he did it, but he was he had been working on something else and then found out about the drug and started researching it and it turned into this book and he's like he was like a music reporter, >> like a music and culture reporter. He's like, "Well, I guess I should look at this."
45:00>> [ __ ] flew to China himself.
45:02>> Yeah.
45:02>> And just like set up a meeting. It was kind of hilarious how it happened with the precursor creators. I was like, "Yeah, so I I'll take like uh $50,000 worth."
45:13>> Wow.
45:13>> Walks right out as if he could do it.
45:15Like they took him into the inner sanctum and he's like, "This is government >> funded basically."
45:22Yeah, that's the word.
45:23>> It's government sanctioned.
45:25>> And he saw the scale of it.
45:28>> And what's [clears throat] always struck me though, I understand why China would do that and stuff. They're over there.
45:32It's like a reverse opium war. It makes sense. But, you know, it's dark obviously.
45:38>> But the cartels obviously these are very vicious people.
45:43They are still business guys though.
45:46>> And like when you look at marijuana and then cocaine, you know, especially with cocaine, which was a huge money maker for them and continues to be, >> it's a party drug, you know, some it's something people abuse in the clubs and stuff like that all throughout the United States. rich people will even do it, you know, >> but with fentanyl, it it it kills people.
46:08And to me, it's like the the huge investment they made in like, let's push this because a bunch of people in America are addicted to it.
46:16>> It feels to me like that put an extra target on their back. Like I I'm curious what the calculation was there for them to do that besides like a quick get-rich thing.
46:26>> I I don't think they thought that far quite frankly. Um I think they realized it a little too late particularly the chapitos or chapo sons. Um and that's why they I went so I've done three stories on fentinel and the last one was about tran dope which is essentially fentinel mixed with tranquilizer but we went to cinaloa and saw how all the chemists were now prohibited from making fentinel. Um, and >> because the Chapas realized that >> as much money as they were making from this, they there's a huge target on their backs and sooner or later the US was going to catch them and they did.
47:04And so they prohibited all chemists um from making and and for these guys, you know, the chemists, it's their livelihood. So a few of them had been killed. They'd been hung in bridges.
47:16There was signs that with photos of the guys h the chemist that had you, you know, gone against the the rule of the cartel. And we interviewed one chemist.
47:26It was an incredible interview with a guy who had a fentinel lab under his house. He happened to have a house that was built right above one of those um sort of drain um what do you call those?
47:39Um >> storm storm drains, you know, the gigantic storm drains. And and so he took us, we went in a ladder down to this storm drain and he showed us exactly where he used to have his lab and he was making tons of fentinel and then the cartel came that two hitmen um and pointed a gun at and told him that you are not you are prohibited from making fentinel any longer and if you do you were coming back and killing you and he stopped and he was like it sucks because I don't [laughter] have anything else. I don't know what else to do and and he was scared. He was super scared.
48:11You could see the whole time he's like shaking. uh telling us this story. Um >> how did you get in touch with him?
48:17>> Through through my um through some sources and through I have an incredible journalist that is guya who's an incredible guy. I've worked with him for many many years. I mean for I've reported more from Cino than anywhere else in the world and um and [snorts] yeah me and him I mean we've been I remember one first time I ever got access to a fence in a lab. Um I was there with myself a cameraman Miguel and I've been trying for years and then finally we got the call and the cartel told us okay we'll pick you guys up in the middle of the night. We're going to blindfold you. Um we're going to take
48:53you to an undisclosed location. no cell phones, but we'll be able you'll be able to film inside a lab. And I called my husband super excited, telling him, "Hey, I got this." And his uh first response was, "Just make sure they film you as you're being blindfolded."
49:07>> I [laughter] was like, "This is why I love you.
49:10>> Production first, safety later." That's what I'm talking about. [laughter] >> Wow. I I When you talk with a guy like that though, did I would imagine you got a you spoke with him about his background, where he was from, his childhood, what what was his story? What was his environment when he was driving?
49:26Cuz obviously he's a smart guy. He's a chemist.
49:28>> He had to be educated, right?
49:29>> Yeah. So, uh, that time when they said they were coming up, pick us up in the middle of the night. Actually didn't happen. They never did. But a couple of years later, uh, for the another episode we did for trafficked, we went inside.
49:41Really smart guy. I mean, really smart guy. He owned a pharmacy in town. He had a few other businesses that uh, he didn't want to tell us about on camera.
49:52And uh, and he really knew his [ __ ] I mean, he was really a chemist, like because I've been in on camera, but not the other businesses.
49:59>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, he he was afraid it was too identifiable, but um but he really knew his [ __ ] and we are, you know, a fentinel lab is very different from a cocaine lab and a meth lab. You you know, the level of protection is intense. We went with full hazmat suits.
50:16We had a mask that we had to have training to how to use this mask to make sure it had to be fitted to our face.
50:22Uh, we brought we had an expert come to our office in LA and fit every single one of our team's faces for this mask.
50:29It was I hated every step of it because I >> Oh, safety first.
50:34>> Yeah, >> I always say safety fourth. Uh, look good, sound good, look good, safety forth. [laughter] >> That's our team motto as a joke. Yeah.
50:44>> Um and uh and so which is why I hated this whole process of taking these masks and hazmat suits, but it was really the only way. But we get there, we were finally inside. We're gear it's hard to breathe. And this guy has one of those like COVID masks on and like a bandana across his head or and and neck and that's pretty much it. And these gloves.
51:07And then when I ask him like I mean this is very very dangerous like how do you Oh because a lot of these labs actually explode. It's very um very dangerous. I mean you if you do one thing wrong these labs explode all the time. Yeah.
51:21>> All the time this happened.
51:23>> Yeah. People die in these labs all the time.
51:25>> Some are from explosions. Some are from just touching and overdosing obviously of mishandling of the drugs and overdosing. And I'm talking about fentinel labs super meth labs actually tend to explode much more than than fentinel labs but in general drug labs illicit drug labs tend to not be the safest work environment and uh and and I asked him like how do you know once it's how do you know it's done and he said that you feel it in your skin and your heart starts palpitating more and that's how he knows that f the fentinil is good that it's that it's done and it's good quality and I I I have said this before
52:02and people say, "Well, that's [ __ ] because fentinel is an opiate. It's a downer. It's not an upper." Yes, but the symptoms of an overdose is that the heart um slow slows down, right? Um but his uh explanation, I actually now can't even remember what his explanation was, but there was a reason. Oh, I know why.
52:21When you're start when you start feeling the effects of the chemical precursor chemicals that are used in fentinil, your heart actually and if you're exposed to it the way that he is, your heart actually starts palpitating faster. And that's what he explained to us. We filmed it all and and again, no, he had no protection. And yeah, and he told us he's he runs a business in town.
52:44He's been a chemist all his life. if he's approached by the cartel and in his situation, you know, they offer him good money, but in a lot of cases, it's >> it's not a will you do it or not. You have to do it and uh it's you either do it or your family is at risk or you or you are will kill you.
53:01>> So that I was going to ask about >> if you talk to him about the morality question >> and actually can I ask Joe for a question? Joe, can is there some way that you can research what uh the what uh fentinyl what um I just want to make sure that I get this right, but what sort of exposure to fentinyl precursors and fentinil in a fentinel lab what it does to your to your body.
53:26>> All right, let's get this.
53:27>> I just want to make sure that I have this right.
53:29>> So, you're saying because something he's wearing suits and stuff, but because he's actually making it, something in him is at least exposed to it enough that he could get that. Yeah, because he didn't have the hazmat suits like we did.
53:40>> Oh, he didn't have it the full suit.
53:41>> No, no.
53:42>> Okay.
53:42>> And we can actually even pull up that clip if we want from our trafficked.
53:46>> Okay. Joe can find that. No problem.
53:48Exposure to fentanyl or its immediate chemical precursors like NPP and A&P >> triggers [clears throat] a life-threatening shutdown of the body's central nervous system. These chemicals are up to 50 to 100 times stronger than heroin. So it could be a profound respiratory depression, extreme sedation, muscle rigidity, cardiovascular changes, blood pressure and heart rate drop significantly leading to poor circulation. So can we Google >> Can you Yeah, exactly. Can you ask if it's possible that your heart uh beats faster because that's what >> small exposure something like that I guess, right?
54:20>> Or or just Yeah. That Yeah. Or that would that triggers the heart beating faster and we can also watch the clip and hear him explaining it to us. All right, let's see. He just asked it.
54:32Yes, small exposure can trigger rapid heart palpitations, but pharmacologically it is almost always caused by an adrenaline response or a panic attack rather than the chemical.
54:42No, this is interesting though because >> I I was going to ask you about this. One of the things that was happening, and I think still happens, maybe my law enforcement friends in the comments can help us with that, but like, you know, there would be cops who would have these overdoses, and I put it in air quotes, when they'd have they'd just be in the room with it or whatever. And yes, sometimes that did happen because it's obviously incredibly potent. There were other times where I believe I read this where they determined that it was actually a psychological effect. I've heard about this as well
55:14>> because they had been warned about it, you know. So, it could be also like >> maybe I don't know pure spec here, but maybe when he's making it, he knows he's getting close or whatever.
55:25>> Or it could be that he actually told me his heart slowed down and in my mind his heart. That's >> exactly [laughter] what I'm saying.
55:31>> So, we should actually at some point watch that clip.
55:34>> Yeah, it says Joe's getting the clip right now. Just before he pulls it up, it says right here, "Even, the adrenaline and panic response, most common when someone believes or realizes they've been exposed to a deadly substance like fentanyl, the brain's fight orflight system instantly kicks in. The surge of adrenaline causes immediate physical symptoms that are often mistaken for chemicals direct effects." I get this in other not to this extent, but to like other random things where I'm like, "Oh, did I just take like three ibuprofen instead of two, you know, or something like that?"
56:00And then I'm like, "Oh, >> right." Or me and the coup where I get Oh, [ __ ] >> Yeah. [laughter] You and a coup. Yeah.
56:04I'm sitting here worried about my hydrograph. But all right, Joe's got the clip right here.
56:09>> So, keep it not full screen cuz this is Nat Gio >> Def. Yeah. Yeah, that's perfect. And we'll watch it. And if you guys get a skip in the episode right now, it's cuz it was copyrighted, but we'll watch it right here.
56:21>> So, you see the mask that we have fitted to our faces, little hazmat suit.
56:25>> All right. Go ahead. Perfect.
56:26>> Chemical process.
56:42This is so funny.
56:43>> What's that? He's opening one of the hydroic acid mixed with acid. I'm just translating people.
56:51>> I'm hoping really really hoping this guy knows.
56:56>> You're not worried.
56:57[clears throat] Start to move here.
56:59[groaning] I'm starting to think my team and I should get the hell out of here.
57:05[laughter] Chemists accidentally kill themselves all the time.
57:10>> Yeah. Do they accidentally kill so this? He says, "Do you know what you're doing?"
57:18>> That's Yeah.
57:19>> Yeah.
57:20>> Okay. Yeah.
57:20>> So, he said he said, "Yeah, my my memory was right." He gets his heart starts moving faster for whatever reason.
57:26That's his his case. But this was I mean I didn't test the drugs but it was very very uh I'm pretty pretty sure that this was in fact fentinyl that he was mixing in front of us and showing us and he would crush them into these M30 pills which is how they're commonly um shipped here to the US. So cheap too like a couple dollars for a pill. It's ridiculous. I've had so many friends on the show like Tommy G and Brandon Buckingham who have filmed documentaries in Kensington and it's just like you know they know what they're going to see before they go there and then they see it in person they're like holy [ __ ] you
58:01know it's everywhere.
58:03>> Yeah it is everywhere >> and it's just a normal day someone in sunlight being given Narcan to come back to life.
58:08>> Oh and that's another thing with these nidazines is that they're so powerful this new opiate that in some cases Narcan doesn't work and it it's not um visible in drug testing either. So that's why people are so worried about it.
58:20>> Yeah. You just wait until nidazine is the next big thing.
58:23>> The the the morality of this though, as you were saying before we were checking on the symptoms there, this guy was told basically you have to do this or your family's going to die.
58:33>> And hey, that's a that is a really hard place to be put in. I can't imagine that. I'm glad I'm not him. But, you know, do you ask him about if he ever thinks about the >> the long the downstream effects of this?
58:49>> Always. I always ask um every single one of these Sinoa cartel or cartel members in general.
58:55>> Um if they know what they're doing is actually killing people and you know a lot of the time my time is spent with those family members. Um, one of the first stories I did, that first story that I did on fentinel, I spent time with a a mother who had three sons and lost two of them to fentinel.
59:09Um and you know yeah again I spent a lot of time in rooms with particularly mothers who are the ones who are um it's there there's something I mean obviously there's a lot of very hurt fathers out there and fathers trying to make a difference after their loved ones pass away >> but more often than not in my experience mothers um after a loss like this they decide that they don't want any other mother um to suffer like they have and they've they've be they become very public in their fight against these drugs. So again and again we interviewed Yeah. mothers who are doing everything going out there going to Congress out on
59:50the streets and trying to prevent more deaths um from fentinel.
59:54>> Yeah. It's the worst worst club you could ever imagine being in losing a kid.
60:00>> Yeah.
60:00>> And I I can't even fathom it. But I'm always amazed when, you know, even years later with things like this, you'll see moms like really, for lack of better way putting it, putting their money where their mouth is and really pushing >> to make a change so other people don't have to feel that. So, I'm glad you also, as a mother, cover that. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And
60:31finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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