Back in April of 1994, some of the worst atrocities of the modern era broke out in the landlocked central African country of Rwanda. To make a very complicated story short, the dominant tribe in Rwanda, the Hoou tribe, which controlled the government, had the majority of the population, for a bunch of different reasons, rose up under the direction of their leaders, and attempted to exterminate the minority tribe in the nation called the Tootszis.
0:28And for a 100 days they did their best.
0:30They killed hundreds of thousands of them. More than half a million of them.
0:34Many with machetes or burned alive or buried alive. And they raped even more than that. And not just raped, but literally coraled AIDS patients in AIDS hospitals and sent them out to rape Tootsie women and to affect them with with HIV, which they did. It was horrifying. And as the details of what happened during what is now referred to as the Rwanda genocide filtered out to the rest of the world, people were stunned and nauseated by it and really bewildered that something like this could happen. Not that long after the most famous genocide in history in the 1940s in Europe, to which we'd all said,
1:15"Well, that could never happen again."
1:17Well, it did. A version of it did happen in Rwanda in 1994.
1:24But what was even more distressing and in some ways shocking was that the world knew it was happening as it happened and did nothing to stop it and in most cases said nothing about it even when it was in progress. From the very beginning, four days after the genocide in Rwanda started, a Swiss journalist in Kilgali, the capital, published a piece in a French newspaper saying, "I have interviewed eight officials and there's a genocide going on in Rwanda." This ran in a western paper and then was picked up in other Western papers, but no one did anything.
2:00So, the Red Cross knew it was happening.
2:03The UN knew it was happening. There were UN troops in Rwanda. The French government knew it was happening. There were French troops there. The nation of Israel knew it was happening. Israel had been a supporter of the Hoou government for decades. In fact, it seems pretty obvious that some of the bullets and grenades used to murder tootssis were sold to the Hoou government by the Israelis. And in fact, there's some evidence apparently that the Israeli government sold weapons to the Hoou government during the genocide which were used to murder tootssis. We say apparently because the documents surrounding this have been classified.
2:38They're under seal per orders of an Israeli court on the grounds that were they to become public, it would be bad for Israel's image globally.
2:48So the Israelis knew and the Clinton administration famously knew it was happening, but for domestic political reasons didn't act to stop it. So the lesson is something horrible, in fact, genocide can happen. the world can know it's happening and allow it to happen. That's the lesson.
3:07And it's a lesson that a young Harvard law student called Samantha Power thought about a lot as she was getting her degree in Cambridge. How can a genocide take place within living memory of the Second World War and the civilized world does nothing about it?
3:24Well, in 2002, she published a book on that exact question. The book was called A Problem from Hell. He won the Puliter Prize and all kinds of other prizes.
3:33And Samantha Power's case was pretty simple. The world cannot allow genocide to happen again. If people find out this is happening, they have to act. That's the mark of civilization. Do you stop mass murder of civilians on ethnic grounds, genocide? And if you don't, then you're not civilized. The United States, she wrote, has a moral obligation to intervene with force if it determines that a genocide is underway. What's the point of having the world's largest military if you can't at least try to prevent a genocide? Well, as noted, she was lauded for this. The book changed her life. She became one of
4:11the most famous people in the world and in a fairly short period of time, a close adviser to then candidate Barack Obama.
4:21He was elected in 2008 and promptly made her the chairman of the Atrocity Prevention Board. You may not have known such a thing existed, but it does. It's an inter agency group. It still exists.
4:35Name slightly different, but its purpose is in the name preventing atrocities.
4:40Using the power of the US government to prevent atrocities. Well, there weren't many well publicized genocides during the first Obama term, but Samantha Power stuck around. She ended up teaching at Harvard Law School and then Biden is elected or becomes president in 2020 and she goes back into the White House. At this point, she is the head of USAD, the United States agency for International Development. She also has a seat on the National Security Council. She is a highlevel foreign policy person in the Biden administration. Well, it just so happens that during her time there, the thing that she warned about, wrote about
5:16actually happened. Another genocide.
5:19This one took place in Gaza, the territory that Israel has controlled, formerly part of Egypt since 1967.
5:28And shortly after the attacks by Hamas into southern Israel in October of 2023, Israel decided to murder as many people as it possibly could in Gaza with the aim of getting the entire population to leave Gaza so Israel could take over Gaza. Now, we're not guessing about this because Israeli officials said out loud, "This is our plan." And then they tried to do it. Two interesting things.
5:57Samantha Power, famous for opposing genocide, said not a word about this. Of course, by this point, 30 years after the Rwanda genocide, Samantha P's view of genocide appeared to have changed. So the way to fight genocide really was to empower women and girls in the LGBT community, fight the patriarchy.
6:20That's how you prevent genocide. But when an actual genocide occurred on her watch as someone with a seat on the National Security Council, Samantha Power did and said nothing. She's now back at Harvard Law School, but she has actually been asked about this. You're the genocide lady, but you did nothing to stop genocide after writing a book scolding the rest of us for doing nothing to stop genocide. Why is that? She didn't respond. Well, I'm not here to answer questions like that, she said. You can look it up. It's an amazing exchange.
6:50What she did not say was, "You're absolutely right. I wrote a book saying the civilized world can't allow genocide to happen and then I allowed it to happen." But that's exactly what she did. But what's even more interesting is that she's not alone in this. Everybody knew from the first week after October 7th that Israel planned to commit genocide, traditionally defined genocide, targeting a population because of their bloodline and trying to exterminate or move them.
7:21Everyone knew this because Israel announced it twice in October of 2023.
7:26The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said out loud in a public speech, "The Palestinians are Amalcch."
7:34Amalecch, a reference that many in the West didn't get, but everyone in the region understood. And it's a reference to 1st Samuel 15. The first verses in it, which you should read because it tells you a lot about it, what out about what Israel is doing now. But those verses describe God's command to eliminate a tribe called the Amalachites.
7:53And not just the draft age men, but all of them, including children and infants.
8:01All of them. kill all of them, destroy all of their property, slay all of their animals. This is God's command. So when Benjamin Netanyahu describes the Palestinians as Amalcch twice in the first month of the Gaza operation, you don't need to guess what the point of this is. The point is to destroy every man, woman, and child, child, and infant in Gaza. And they said about doing that, but it wasn't just Netanyahu who said that. It was a lot of different authorities in Israel. And in fact, as someone who's been keeping a list of this for a while, it might be worth reading them, just so everyone knows,
8:40this isn't blood liel. It is true. On October 9th, so 3 days after the Hamas attacks, the defense minister of Israel, their own Pete Hegsth, described his plans for Gaza, not for Hamas, for the entire territory, for the over 2 million people who live there. and we're quoting, "No electricity, no food will be allowed in. We are fighting human animals, not human beings, human animals."
9:11Well, the deputy mayor of Jerusalem that winter responded not to say, "Whoa, whoa, settle down, defense minister. Calling your opponents animals is of course genocidal talk." No. The deputy mayor of Jerusalem thought he didn't go far enough and he said this.
9:34They're not human animals. They're not human beings. They are subhuman.
9:40And then he said that the Palestinians of Gaza should be buried alive with bulldozers, which some ultimately apparently were.
9:51Ben Gver, Matt Brooks of the Republican Jewish Coalition, carpet bomb.
9:58Cabinet ministers in Israel, supporters of Israel in the United States making the same case in public from the very first day. Kill indiscriminately. Move them out. There were discussions on the American right about what we should do with those gazins, the people who live there. Move them to other countries, Egypt, maybe even the United States. Get them out. kill enough of them that the rest leave. The survivors want to flee.
10:25And so the aim was genocidal from the very first day. The Israelis announced it. Israel's supporters in the United States seconded it, amplified it, and members of the US Congress on television, the people who are paying for this genocide, announced proudly, "That's right.
10:44The Israelis have every right to kill civilians and that's why we are paying them and giving them weapons to do so.
10:50Watch this.
10:51>> I would encourage the other side to not so lightly throw around the idea of innocent Palestinian civilians as is frequently said. Uh I don't think we would so lightly throw around the term innocent Nazi civilians during World War II.
11:08>> In World War II, we did not negotiate a a surrender with the Nazis. We did not negotiate a surrender with the Japanese.
11:14We nuked the Japanese twice in order to get unconditional surrender. That needs to be the same here.
11:21>> Many people in this part of the world say what happened in Gaza does not align with Christian values. Killing children, killing mothers, killing families who are not militants.
11:29>> Yeah. I I just I don't buy that at all.
11:31>> Why?
11:32>> Cuz what did we do in World War II?
11:35>> Did we think one minute about starving the Germans? Did we bomb every city into bl to smitherings?
11:43So this is a >> October 7th to World War II.
11:46>> Yes, I am. This is an absolute existential threat to the Jewish people.
11:50We flattened Berlin. We flattened Tokyo.
11:55Were we wrong to drop an atomic bomb to end the Japanese reign of terror? Were we? So my view, if I were Israel, I would have probably done it the same way. There are no innocent Palestinian civilians. We starve the Germans. We're proud of it. We dropped an atomic bomb on Japanese civilians. We're proud of it. The Israelis should do the same here. Now, if there's another definition of genocide, intentionally targeting the innocent for murder, it would be interesting to know what it is.
12:29Keep in mind, none of these people, Brian Mass from Florida, Randy Fine from Florida, in the end, of course, Lindsey Graham from South Carolina, none of them even bothered to add the caveat, well, Hamas supporters, no, people who live next door to Hamas supporters, down the street from Hamas supporters, in the same region as Hamas supporters, Arabs, must be killed because they're Arabs.
12:58How is that any different from Who Radio comparing the tootsies to cockroaches?
13:03How is the net result different? Well, it's identical in both cases. How is it different? And this is an explicit violation of the IH definition of anti-semitism, but it's also true. How is this different from what the Germans did to civilians in World War II? It's different in its scale, thankfully.
13:21Is it different in its intent? It's hard to see how. And if it is different, how how is it different? Well, of course, it's not. It's the same thing.
13:31All of this, by the way, was going on with Samantha Power, not to beat up on poor Samantha Power. Clearly didn't sign up for this. She just wanted to talk about the empowerment of women and girls in the LGBT community.
13:43But how could you write a book on genocide or claim to oppose genocide or send money to a Holocaust me memorial or talk about the Second World War at all and the atrocities against civilians and stand by much less fund this while it happens? It's hard to understand.
14:03But not only have they, they being the supporters of the Israeli government, they've done both at the same time.
14:10Lecturing the world about why genocide is wrong, murdering the innocent is wrong, and they're right. And at the same time, bragging about those very same things in Gaza. Here is a now thankfully famous couple of tweets from Randy Fine of Florida gloating about the murder of civilians in Gaza. The first is a picture of a dead child killed by the Israeli government that somebody put in his Twitter feed and asked basically how can you sleep at night and he says quite well actually thanks for the pick with an exclamation point.
14:47And the second is a story about starvation in Gaza which is real and entirely manufactured by the Israeli government with the back stop of the American government.
14:57And Randy Fine on seeing a picture of starving civilians, women and children, writes, "Starve away.
15:07Starve away."
15:10So here you have sitting members of the United States Congress not simply denying genocide, but encouraging it, gloating over it, celebrating it.
15:22How did this happen?
15:24How did the rest of the United States stand by and allow the federal government to take its tax dollars to fund this? Israel could do none of this by itself. Of course, it couldn't exist without US tax dollars. It would be destroyed by its enemies.
15:40There's no question about that. So, how exactly have members of Congress been allowed not simply to fund but to celebrate genocide here in the United States? And the answer is really simple.
15:53by a form of moral blackmail. Where the real criminals here are not Smootrich and Ben Gvere and Netanyahu and the deputy mayor of Jerusalem, the people who are calling women and children who are Arabs animals who must be buried alive with bulldozers starved to death. No, the real criminals, the people who should be in serious trouble, should go to jail, are the people who notice it, who complain about it, who object to it.
16:26Even the people who ever so mildly say, "Not my business, but I don't want to fund this." Those people are the people who have committed the real moral crimes.
16:35Hate to put this up again, but it's such a perfect distillation.
16:40Almost everything Mark Leavvin says, none of it is original. All of it is the kind of most vulgar form of the talking points that everyone else is using.
16:50His are just revealing because he doesn't hold back. Here's Mark Levin describing people who complain about the genocide in Gaza. Watch. Who the hell do you think you are? Who the hell do you think you are to use these blood liels against the Jewish people? That they are indiscriminately murdering Palestinian civilians when you spew the lives of the Hamas terrorists against the Jews and unleash anti-semitism in this country around the world like we've never seen before. Who the hell do you think you are? The idea that the Israeli people, that their representatives in the government are committing acts of genocide and war
17:34crimes against the Palestinians in Gaza is sickening. It's a uh it's a blood liel. Joe Biden basically using blood liel after blood liel against the Israelis that they're killing all these civilians. They're using the Hamas numbers. All of this will be certified.
17:50All of this will be sanctified. All the Hitler youth on our campuses, the Hitler youth throughout Europe, and the Hitlerians throughout Europe where the Holocaust started. This is what they're going to take out of October 7th. The enemy is Hamas. The enemy is Iran. The enemy are those who are silent in the face of this kind of genocide. That is by the terrorists. Keep in mind that Joe Biden did nothing to stop the genocide in Gaza. Of course, he continued to allow the US government to pay for it.
18:21His criticisms were mild and in the end ineffectual. And even as we noted, his in-house genocide expert didn't say a word about it. Biden let this happen just as Donald Trump has let this happen and encouraged it to happen.
18:37But anyone who notices it is the real terrorist.
18:42So what you have here is the desperate attempt which appears to be coming to an end of the people committing the crimes trying to remain the victim of the crime and it's just not sustainable. It's not sustainable as a math question.
18:59All murder of civilians is wrong. But since we're comparing in what place have more civilians been murdered, Israel or Gaza? It's not even close. It's not even close. And again, you don't even need to go there. You can just say it's always wrong. It's wrong when you do it. It's wrong when you do it. It would be wrong if I did it. And we're all capable of it. Which is one of the deepest lessons of what's happened in Gaza and Rwanda and Buenwald.
19:25Is it the desire to kill groups of other people is not limited to one race or religion.
19:33It's a species of the same evil that lurks in every human heart. Just the way people are. And under certain circumstances, good people can do horrifying things and support horrifying things. And they're probably good people who support the genocide in Gaza because they're under some kind of spell. They don't know what they're saying. They don't understand the implications of it.
19:52They don't understand the physical reality of it.
19:55Everybody is capable of evil. That's the truth. That's the universal lesson.
20:01But supporters of Israel don't believe in anything that's universal. They believe that there's one set of rules for the country they admire and another set for the world. When we do it, it's not wrong. When you do it, it is wrong.
20:13In fact, when you complain about our doing it, it's doubly wrong. And that just can't last because it's self-evidently absurd and it won't last.
20:21And anyone who's defended it or helped pay for it will face at the very least a reckoning at the end and maybe sooner, one hopes.
20:32But in the meantime, because this is a process of stages, it might help just to establish what happened in Gaza. And of course, we're not really sure even now, there are more journalists operating in Kilgali, Rwanda without restriction in 1994 than there are in Gaza today. I knew one of them well, a western journalist. He was never molested by anybody. The Hoou militia never heard him. He stood by and watched the whole thing and he reported on it. That is not the case in Gaza. Hundreds of journalists have been murdered by the Israeli government in Gaza. And the purpose of killing them, of course, was
21:10to prevent the rest of the world from knowing what happened there. But some people have been witnesses to this. And we want you to hear the interview that we just did with a man called Nick Maynard, who was one of those witnesses, because we think that his account, which is entirely non-political or even pmical, is instead reliable. He's a physician from Oxford at the university in the UK. He's a cancer doctor and for a number of years, and he'll explain it in just a moment, he has been in and out of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza in recent years, particularly in Gaza, both before and after October 7th. And the
21:51things he's seen there are so horrifying that they can't really be rebutted. No one can look at the man you're about to see and say, "Oh, he's a secret member of Islamic Shihad."
22:03Probably a closet Shiite. No, he's a British cancer doctor in his 60s who does believe in universal principles.
22:10You shouldn't kill the innocent because they're innocent. They've done nothing wrong. And when you do, you should be held to account for it. He's not an anti-semite. He doesn't hate the Jews.
22:20Like a lot of Jews around the world, he is horrified by what's happening in Gaza.
22:25and he has the bravery to describe it.
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23:46So without delay, here is Dr. Nick Maynard of Oxford with an account of what he has seen and the people he knows personally who've been murdered by the Israeli government during the longest genocide in this world since 1945.
24:04Watch. Dr. Thank you for doing this. So you're a medical professor at Oxford. I think you have one of the world's most respectable jobs. Most respected jobs certainly. And now you are speaking about what you have seen in the most contentious controversial conflict in the world. Um how did you decide to speak about what you saw in Gaza? In fact, how did you wind up seeing going to Gaza in the first place?
24:32So it was real pure serendipity that I ended up going to Gaza in many ways. I was invited more than 20 years ago, maybe in 2006, to go to the West Bank to teach medical students at Alkutz University in Jerusalem, in Ramla, and Hebrron and did that on a very ad hoc basis for a few years. And then I was asked to do the same in Gaza. Um, and I leapt at the opportunity because I'd already sort of fallen in love with the Palestinian people. I'd loved visiting the West Bank. So, I went to Gaza for the first.
25:03>> What did you like? It's it's weird maybe for Americans to hear that because the Palestinians have been so thoroughly maligned by our media for so long that people think of them as violent and primitive. What did you like about the Palestinians? Oh, >> they're the kindest people I've met.
25:17They're they're profoundly resilient, particularly in Gaza, but they're generous. They're kind. Um very welcoming. I've always been treated wonderfully by them. And when [clears throat] you go to Gaza, I mean, you see that even on a to a different level yet again, they are incredibly resilient, incredibly resourceful, but they are the kindest, most generoushearted, most beautiful people I've ever met in the world.
25:43>> Really absolutely correct. I I can't overstate the degree to which Americans have been told for decades that the people in Gaza are barely human.
25:53And that was done. When did you first go? I went to Gaza for the first time in 2010 and and I it was just an initial sort of trip to teach and then I've ever since then I've been taking a team of doctors from Oxford to teach medical students there.
26:07>> What was Gaza like? Can you describe it in 2010?
26:09>> Yeah, it was it was it it was under occupation. So it was a it's been variously described as a large prison or concentration camp. And you know people might take issue with that terminology but what lies behind that is the fact that the 99% plus of the population have never ever been able to leave their country. So they are in prison there. So we went in through the most remarkable security from Israel. We went through the era's crossing in in northern Gaza.
26:38Um that first trip took us most of the day to get through the security and we had 10 days I think in Gaza. As a western physician, it took you most of the day to get from Israel into Gaza because of the Israeli security.
26:52>> Because the Israeli security, it it took hours getting through the the most remarkably intense security. Um being grilled repeatedly about why we were going there, um what we were doing, why we were going there, why didn't we go to Africa instead, why we were going to Gaza? If we wanted to help people, why didn't we go to African countries?
27:14Literally those are the questions we're being asked.
27:16>> Is this the same border that Hamas came over on October 7th?
27:20>> No. So Arez is crossing is the very top of Gaza, the northern border with Israel. Hamas came out through the through southern sort of near the bottom of Gaza. Eraz crossing has been was destroyed very early on in this conflict. So it's it's not being used at all. Certainly certainly none of the humanitarian teams that have gone in have gone in through that at all. It's it's it's a sort of no pass area, but you get into GS and I remember vividly my first visit there in 2010 meeting these people who were just so welcoming.
27:52They were so delighted that we'd gone to visit them and the hospitality was just remarkable.
28:00And that's been the way ever since. And indeed, every year I've been going there, I've been taking new people most times. Um, and everyone falls in love with the Palestinian people. they they and they all want to go back. So in those early years I was just teaching every year and I've been doing that until and until 2022. In fact, we had a teaching trip pan planned for November 23 and that was clearly cancelled. But I've also been involved separate to that in carrying out and teaching cancer surgeon. That's what I do in Oxford. So helping them develop their cancer services and teaching my specialty of
28:36cancer as well. What did it look like in 2010? It was occupied as you said, but what was the infrastructure like Gaza City? How would you describe it? It I mean there was vast amount of wreckage of destroyed buildings cuz this was not It's worth pointing out that every single trip I've ever been into Gaza and I've been many times in those 18 16 years um I've seen aerial bombardments.
29:01So it's a way of life there. every trip I've >> by Israel >> by Israel aerial bombardment on is on Gaza by the Israeli air force. So and and this was I was there in 2010 not long after the 2008 massive uh uh uh military assault on Gaza. So the destruction you see is remarkable as loads of buildings have been destroyed and each time you go you see more of that. I remember going in in 2015 just after 2014 Operation Protective Edge, which you may remember, which was a about a 58 day military assault. I think the the destruction of buildings was was just like something I'd never seen before. So, you have this sort of
29:42mixture of mass destruction, but you see Gar's rebuilding the whole time. They're there rebuilding their destroyed houses yet again. Um and but it's a busy thriving place. You go down to Gaza City where the harbor is, it's busy. There are markets there, there are fishing boats there. They are desperate all the time to get back to normal living. But it's a the resources are very limited. I mean, particularly in the health care system there, which is where I've been working, they never have enough resources. their economy has almost been completely disabled by Israel all that time. Um so they have very limited
30:23resources for for everything for all aspects of living there but particularly in the healthcare structure.
30:28>> So in 2010 or let's just say before October 7th 20 uh 23 how would you just what what was the state of the health care system in Gaza? It was I mean they they practice high quality medicine. The the the doctors, the nurses, the dieticians, the physiotherapists, the occupational therapists remarkably talented. And I was teaching the students for years. I know how bright these kids are. They they're just remarkably bright. They know so much. A lot of it was sort of didactic teaching, online teaching, which we tried to improve on in our sort of face-toface teaching. But so their knowledge is remarkable. They practice
31:08medicine at a very high level. But they have very limited resources. So in my specialty in cancer surgery, the they didn't have the resources to do absolutely everything. So they many patients had to the the the doctors had to apply to get them transferred for example to the West Bank or to Jordan or sometimes into Israel to have specialist treatment that couldn't be carried out in Gaza. So they had to work with very limited resources. How hard was it for cancer patients to leave Gaza for treatment?
31:39>> Uh very difficult. So there was a very laborious uh uh uh uh uh application process. The Ministry of Health had to apply to the Israeli authorities. That took on average about 3 months for each application to go through. These are all people with life-threatening timecritical illnesses. So that 3 months that cancer will change a lot. of those applicants about twothirds would get through and a third would be rejected.
32:06So these are people again with life-threatening illnesses which cannot be treated in Gaza. One and three were being rejected. So they would inevitably die. Um and even if they were granted permission, they were often sent out alone. So kids sent out sent out for treatment for their brain tumor, for example, might be sent by themselves without any parent accompanying them.
32:30Were these kids with a documented history of terrorism?
32:34>> Not at all. Not at all. These >> Why would the Israelis prevent a child with a brain tumor from getting treatment? Not at their expense.
32:44What's the thinking there?
32:45>> I I don't know what the thinking is. I mean, it has to there were some patients who were accepted into Israeli hospitals, and there are many examples of that. Um, but why some were turned down, some were accepted, I have no idea. But but it rem it is a fact that many people were rejected despite needing life-threatening treat life-saving treatment.
33:07>> How many hospitals were in Gaza?
33:09>> Uh the there's 36 I mean the United Nations tells us there are 36 hospitals in Gaza but some of them are very very small clinics. So there are probably four or four major hospitals in Gaza.
33:22the Indonesian hospital in the north, Shifa hospital which is the most famous iconic hospital in Gaza in Gaza City and then the European Gaza Hospital and NASA hospital in the south. Of those NASA hospital, the NASA medical complex in Hineunis where I was based most recently is the only remaining large hospital in Gards and even that is very significant disabled and they've been destroyed.
33:47>> Why? So um I think this is part of the I mean the whole health care infrastructure has been targeted in Gaza repeatedly over many years. I mean I've been in w hospitals being bombed as long ago as 2014 but in this >> you were in the hospital while it was bombed.
34:07>> No I was visiting a hospital before and then I've visited art have had been bombed. I've been in hospitals that have been bombed in this current conflict, uh, but not prior to then. Um, I think this is every single hospital has been attacked.
34:22I mean, nearly 2,000 health care workers have been killed during this conflict. A a far greater proportion than any other conflict in living memory. Um 75 GS and healthcare workers have been killed per 100,000 capita of population. 75 the equivalent number in Ukraine is 0.8 in all the other conflicts as single figures of healthare workers per 100,000 population in Gaza at 75. So there's been a grossly disproportionate killing of healthare workers. All the hospitals have been attacked. And I think this is I mean I can I'm I I'm going to be talking to you about what I've seen with my own eyes.
35:07The the disproportionate attack on the health care system I think has has been a deliberate part of the Israeli posity uh uh uh policy to dismantle the whole infrastructure of living in Gaza. A lot of people hesitate before getting traditional therapies for cholesterol health. They don't want to wind up stuck [music] on capsules for the rest of their lives. pills. They'd rather feel like they have some say in how they take care of their own bodies. And that's why more Americans are turning to more gentle alternatives with ingredients they recognize, ingredients like ginger, and pomegranate. One of those
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36:25>> So, you don't think those hospitals were collateral damage? These were accidental attacks. I I think they were deliberate attacks. And I've been in I mean, I was in Alaxa Hospital when it was attacked.
36:34We on my first couple of trips there before the Rafa crossing was destroyed in May 2024. the early trips I took out there since October the 7th, we went in through Rafa, we crossed the from Egypt across the Sinai and we that very first trip we went in we were the very first emergency team that got into Gaza. Um and we stayed actually on that occasion in a in a safe house rather than in the hospital and each day we our guaran staff colleagues communicated with Kogat which is the liazison branch of the Israeli army to check that the route going to the hospital the hospital itself was deconlicted.
37:18So there was a sort of a what we thought was a very robust deconliction process where the Israeli military would know that we were work we were driving along such and such a road. We were going to work in such and such a hospital and we would be safe. Um that was naive of us clearly. Um you'll remember about the Grand Central Kitchen convoy that got bombed. That was the first very publicized example of the deconliction process breaking down. Alax hospital. I was operating in the operating theater one day in it was January the 5th, 2024.
37:56I remember the day well operating on a on a victim of a a bomb explosion and an Israeli missile attack hit the intensive care unit right next to where I was working. So we had to >> while you were operating?
38:08>> While I was operating. So we finished the operation. and we had to evacuate the hospital. Then MSF had a team there.
38:14All the foreign aid workers had to evacuate to go back to our safe house and that hospital rapidly becomes disabled. So there are multiple examples of hospitals being attacked. These are not collateral damage. I mean, the the propaganda we hear from the Israeli spokespeople is always, well, these are these are either collateral damage or they are being used as Hamas command centers and we're just targeting Hamas.
38:42And and they've never provided any remotely credible or verifiable evidence to support those contentions.
38:49>> Well, as a doctor who's operated in these hospitals, did you notice Hamas command meetings going on while you were there?
38:55>> Not at all. And I've so since October the 7th I've been in two hospitals but prior to then I've worked in all the major hospitals. I've had unlimited access throughout all these hospitals.
39:07Um and I've been to every square inch of these hospital you know NASA medical complex. It was bombed soon after I left most recently. I I I I walked around every single part of the hospital and I've never seen anything. I've seen no evidence of Hamas military activity.
39:23Now, I clearly cannot talk about what's going on in any tunnels cuz I didn't go into any tunnels. I clearly can't talk about what's going on in the hospital out building 100 meters away or 75 m away. And there may be that there were hammers there. I have no idea. I can bear witness to what I have seen. But of course, the Israeli military are not bombing those outuildings. They've been bombing the clinical areas of these hospitals where there have been patients where there have been doctors where there have been medical students I had been teaching a few weeks previously who were killed in the latest attack on NASA
40:01hospital. So there is they are targeting the clinical areas and I can say with very with with absolute clarity and indeed all my colleagues have been out there none of us have seen any evidence of Hamas military. comparison um again you you gave the numbers the number of medical personnel who have been killed in the Russia Ukraine war and it's a tiny fraction proportionally of the number who have been killed by the Israelis how many hospitals have been totally blown up in that war Russia Ukraine do you think I I don't know I mean the there has been significant targeting of Ukrainian hospitals as well
40:39and Ukraine the the proportion of of healthare workers killed killed and hospitals killed in Ukraine is is not as bad as Gaza, but it's much more than many previous conflicts. So, both those two current conflicts stand out in that respect, but the statistics would say that Gaza is the worst of >> targeting hospitals is a war crime.
41:00Correct.
41:01>> Yeah.
41:03>> How many people do you know who've been killed?
41:06>> Many. I mean, close friends, I'd say probably a dozen close friends have been killed. Um but I probably know killed.
41:15>> Yeah. I mean one one young plastic surgeon who I knew who I'd worked with in in in in May 2023 when I was at Shifa Hospital. He uh was executed and I think and I I use that word very carefully. He was discovered um about a mile from Shifa Hospital um with his mother. They were both had their hands handcuffed behind their backs and they both had bullet wounds in the brains. So I've had friends who've been bombed. I've had friends >> and he was a plastic surgeon.
41:48>> He was a plastic surgeon.
41:50>> Why was he executed?
41:52>> Well, when I don't know. I mean I don't know what goes on behind this. What I can tell you is that that when Shifa hospital was Shifa hospital's been destroyed effectively twice during this war but when it was invaded initially maybe two years ago. Um the all the staff were displaced including very very close friends of mine. Uh, and when they were allowed back in, when the Israeli military left after a few weeks, they discovered the dead bodies of 300 civilians in the hospital, some patients, some staff, many of them handcuffed with their hands behind their back, many of them with bullet wounds on the head, including
42:32this friend of mine. Um, so there are multiple examples of of of people of health care staff who've been killed, health care staff who've been abducted.
42:42You know, I think near the latest figure is nearly 500 healthare workers have been abducted, illegally detained without charge. Um, many of them by the Israeli military into the Israeli prison system. Multiple examples of their being them being tortured. Um, this has all been documented in a in a in a in a in a in a by a group called Health Care Workers Watch. You can Google it. They produced a document called the killing and detention of of guards and healthcare workers in and and there are multiple examples of people being tortured to death.
43:15>> Tortured to death.
43:17>> Absolutely. So an iconic orthopedic surgeon who I didn't know well but I had met and in fact I had coffee with him in May 2023. He was tortured to death and in fact a Sky television investigative journalist interviewed fellow detainees and and did a some remarkable investigative journalism. This is all in public domain and described how this surgeon's mode of torture was being raped to death. He had been serily raped on a daily basis for 2 weeks prior to his dying. His body's never been returned. I've taken detailed testimonies from healthare workers who've been in Israeli prisons and have been tortured. They survived. I've taken
44:02video and audio testimonies and they've described to me their modes of torture, how their genitals were repeatedly attacked specifically. They were electrocuted through their genitals.
44:14They underwent severe psychological torture. They were blindfolded for 60 days in a row. They were handcuffed.
44:22They were not allowed to lie down. They were on their knees or sitting for 60 days non-stop, beaten regularly, electrocuted. I mean, awful things. And this document that I'm, you know, the healthcare workers watch, you your read, your listeners can Google that. There's a all the different modes of torture.
44:40All of which >> by the Israeli government >> by the Israeli prison service, guards and military. And this is there is and again this is this the evidence is there detailed testimonies from fellow detainees from families indeed some testimonies from the Israeli prison service staff as well. Um and again this has all been submitted to the international courts. Spring is the most refreshing time of year and nothing compliments it better than black rifle coffee. Lots of it. This an American company founded by veterans with conviction. They built the whole thing around a simple idea. Do it right or just don't do it. They're definitely
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46:00So, the New York Times recently ran a piece saying that Palestinian prisoners had been raped with dogs in Israeli prisons. And the response in the American media to the extent there was response was to accuse the writer of blood liel against all Jews. This is like accusing rabbis of poisoning wells. It was basically Nazi propaganda. That that was the response.
46:25Does that sound plausible to you? It does sound plausible. I did not hear any examples of that. But what I have heard about and what I've taken detailed testim of are some of the most appalling examples of torture. So, one of the one of my friends who was tortured for 60 days in a prison talked about how he he I have I've heard no examples of dogs raping the the the the prisoners, but I have heard multiple examples of the dogs being used as weapons um with you'll be familiar with the with the the the drone warfare, the quadcopters with cameras and guns. Well, they have dogs who are trained to go
47:04into the hospitals with cameras and guns on their back and attacking people. And my colleague of whom I took a detailed uh test me has described that in great detail.
47:14>> Dogs with guns on their backs.
47:16>> Dogs with cameras and and and and guns on their backs and going being trained to go into hospitals and shoot people.
47:23And there I've I've heard multiple examples of that. So, >> of a living dog, >> living dogs who are trained, they go in, they they go into wherever, and then there's a someone remotely controlling the camera and the guns and then they are >> If you told me that it happened in a North Korean prison camp, I would have trouble believing you. You're saying the Israeli government did this?
47:43>> Well, I'm telling you what I have taken test me of a of a friend of mine who witnessed this on multiple occasions.
47:54What do people in the you live still in Britain. What do people in the UK say when you tell them this? Uh >> so I do I talk a lot about this. I I felt this obligation having witnessed all these atrocities that that I feel I have to share this with everyone. I I I've done a lot of media interviews.
48:15I've done a lot of lectures at medical conferences, at lay people's conferences, and I've met a lot of our senior politicians. And I'm not alone. A lot of people have done this. A lot of my colleagues have done this. A lot of US doctors have done this. I mean, US doctors, British doctors, we've all publicly written to our governments. A few of us wrote a very detailed dossier with photographic and written evidence of what we've seen. We presented it to we presented it to our prime minister.
48:42We submitted it to all the cabinet ministers so they know what's going on.
48:48you. I visited Washington DC in the early part of this and met members of the Biden administration um with friends of mine from Med Global, the a wonderful US NGO. We went and gave this evidence.
49:00We took in large laminated color photographs of of babies who'd been shot in the head, of children who' lost their limbs, of children who' star who'd been starved to death. Literally, we've described this to to the to the Biden administration. I've been to several meetings in our government, including one with the prime minister, where we've described what's been going on, and it's had no impact at all.
49:27>> What was your meeting with Biden officials like? What did they say?
49:30>> Um, they some of them were they were by and large very receptive. So we we went to um we met various senators as well but then we met members of the administration. They were very receptive. We we clearly met people lower down the chain. We did meet Samantha Power. She was the most senior who was who was who um I was very impressed with. Uh we got a very good reception and and very sympathetic reception.
49:59Of course none of this goes anywhere. So we don't see any actions at the at the at the end of that. Um but by and large the US politicians you met were were very sympathetic but of course it had no impact whatsoever.
50:12>> Smith power became famous for writing a book on genocide. How we can never allow it again and then she allowed it again.
50:20>> Um so your your friend who was raped to death your friends who were tortured why why were they detained and tortured? I think this is the the the there's a clear disproportion of senior healthare workers who've been taken compared to junior healthare workers. My presumption is I mean I again I I I can tell you a lot of facts about what's happened there. The my interpretation is is my opinion. It would seem to me and many others who've witnessed all of this that this has been a deliberate policy to destroy the health care system. Well, can you get can you give us a spec a specific example of someone you know who was
51:03detained and tortured and what were the circumstances? How does that happen?
51:07>> So, they're they're arrested within the hospitals. So, my two colleagues, one of them was arrested in in the Indonesian hospital. One of them was arrested in NASA hospital. The Israeli military invade the hospitals. They what would appear to be fairly arbitrarily arrest some let others go.
51:25predominantly males. Um they are then taken off and they're I mean so I'll describe what happened to my my the last testimony I took. He was with about 20 or 30 other healthcare workers put in a big pit, an underground pit with no covering. They were stripped naked down to their underwear. They blindfolded.
51:46They were handcuffed. They were left in a pit in the ground for 2 to three days.
51:52Then they were taken off to an Israeli prison. Um they were left blindfolded, they were left handcuffed, they were beaten those first few days non-stop for 12 hours at a time. Um many other forms of torture we've described about all all along. One of my close friends who's one of the senior deans in the medical school there was was was abducted and taken away. He was only taken for I think 10 days and then released. But there are so many >> How old is he? He is I guess late 50s.
52:26>> Yeah. I mean you know and there are photos >> not of militant age.
52:29>> Not of militant age. Absolutely.
52:31Absolutely.
52:32>> And what was the justification?
52:34>> Well, so they were they were continually being grilled about you know what about them being Hamas members and and what they had done and all that sort of stuff. Now there are some so you know Husam Abu Safir who's the director of of Kamal Adwan Hospital was was abducted over a year ago now he's still under detention in Israeli prison. His lawyers can't get in can't get in news about him. There are many people who are still there. Um, we can only speculate as to why they are being taken and why they're being tortured, but it seems [clears throat] the the the deliberate disproportionate um detention of healthare workers and
53:21killing of health compared to other civilians speaks to me that there is a deliberate policy of undermining of destroying the whole healthare system.
53:30Are they charged with crimes put on trial?
53:32>> Oh no, no, no, no. None of them are charged. None of them are charged. These are all people who have detained without charge.
53:38>> So just completely lawless. But that's been happening for as you will know for for decades in in the Palestinian territories. There are thousands of of of Palestinian um in in the West Bank who are in prison without who've been in prison without charge. So this has been happening for a long time. Um but certainly the ones that I have interviewed and the ones I've known who've been told no, there were no charges at all.
54:07And a lot of these are adult just adult men with families.
54:10>> Yeah. I mean a lot of them were sort of I I the the the the age range of the people I know were from probably early 20s to late 50s.
54:22>> That's shocking.
54:23>> It is shocking >> to me. and and having seen this, having witnessed this, this is why I think it is important that that that we tell everyone what's going on because this is not what we're hearing from our western media, from our governments, um despite many attempts of of do foreign doctors who have been there to speak out and tell them. Well, some of the accounts are so shocking that the military just rolls into a hospital, abducts senior physicians, and then rapes them in prison with no charges.
54:55It's kind of hard to believe that could be true given that Israel is regarded by, I think, most people in the United States as a civilized country. Maybe you disagree with their influence over our politics, but like it's Israel. It's not that different from us. You're describing totally univilized evil behavior, organized behavior.
55:16I'm describing what I have either seen or what close friends have told me. Um, and the volume of accounts that I have read, heard are overwhelming and and and and to me that the amount of volume of reports coming out [clears throat] tells me very clearly this is happening. So after October 7th, uh October 7th happens, are you in the UK when that happened?
55:42>> I was in the UK. Yeah.
55:44>> Um given how familiar you are with Gaza and the crossings from Gaza into Israel, were you surprised that Hamas or militants could cross the border in those numbers without push back from the Israeli military?
55:56>> I think we're all surprised and I I I I think that there's a huge amount we don't know about the events of that day.
56:04Um my concentration at the time was within 12 hours of that I was being contacted by my friends and colleagues out there who in the very very early days were were predicting there was going to be the most almighty uh uh uh uh uh backlash and that they were already on the day afterwards begging those of us who could to go out there and help them.
56:32So they knew what was coming.
56:34>> So I think by the next day, by October the 8th, they knew what was coming and and we were talking to, you know, and and people were trying to get in there right from the word go to go and help.
56:45>> When did you get back into Gaza after that?
56:47>> So my first trip was uh we went in on Boxing Day, so December the 23. We we were meant to go on a Christmas day and we got delayed by the Egyptian military in fact in the Sinai. So we went into Gaza on December the 26th and it was the first the first significant emergency medical scenes that went in there.
57:08>> What did you find when you got there? I remember approaching it from this. We'd had a sort of very long crossing the northern Sinai going through all the Egyptian military checkpoints and um it was a I always remember this was a beautiful day, beautifully sunny, no clouds in the sky. And then you could see as we approached Rafa from Egypt, you could see as we approached the Egyptian part of Rafa, you could see this lowlying cloud over the whole of southern Gaza, which of course was smoke from the bombs and you could smell it from about 2 or 3 miles away. You could smell the burning and it was awful. It
57:48was awful. So we got into Rafa. We got through the sort of the Egyptian um checkpoints.
57:56than the guards and checkpoints and we had to drive through Ruffer to get to the house we were the safe house we were living in and this was so this was you know two two and a half months into it by which time a lot of a lot of people have been displaced from northern Gazen city the migration of of displaced refugees from the north was like something I've never seen before as we were driving through Rafa and then up the coast road towards middle of where the hospital we were going to be working in Dar Albbella was it's it's impossible to put words to it the thousands of people walking down most of them walking some of them in
58:39horse and carts some of them in in vehicles who'd been displaced and were moving down south to get away from every from from from all the trauma so that to me was a site I will never forget seeing these people and of course at that time this is very early on, Al-Moasi, which will be an area you're familiar with.
58:58It's it's it's um what the Israelis paradoxy were calling a safe area that everyone was being evacuated safe. You remember that? Well, of course, it's not remotely safe.
59:08>> That at that time, there were no there were no tents up there at all. It was people walking there. The next time I went back a few months later, of course, that had been covered in tents. I say tents, but they're not really tents.
59:20They're sort of makeshift shelters. So the hundreds of thousands had been moved down south was just it was awful to see >> because their homes had been destroyed.
59:31>> Their homes had been destroyed. Um and you know friends of mine had been displaced 6 7 8 nine times. Uh that very first trip I remember I was I've been in the hospital in Alex Hospital in Derabala for about four or five days and we have a there I have many friends out there. one particularly close family whose daughter um left Gaza about 8 years previously. She got a SC I mentioned she got a scholarship to get out. She stayed in in in in um in the UK. She's a doctor there. She became a member of our family. She you know she she so I used to I' I'd see her family every time I go to Gaza. They came to
60:11visit me in at the hospital in Alaxa just a week after I'd arrived. Um, and they were distraught. I mean, they had been displaced six times at that point.
60:21They were living no running water, no electricity. They had all written on their legs in ink their names and their dates of birth. This is what they all did because they all expected to be killed and they wanted their bodies to be recognized. They wanted to be identified. See, these are close friends of mine.
60:42So it was I I saw fit. I mean I I you know that first trip I I I thought I'd be prepared because I had been on the phone to my GS and friends and colleagues almost daily since October the 7th. We have a strong network in Oxford in particular of people who've been out there. So we were all interacting with all our different contacts. We were meeting regularly on a weekly basis to to do see what we could do. Um, and I thought I'd be prepared, but nothing could have prepared me for for what I saw there.
61:14>> And you're a surgeon, so it's not like you're fainting at the sight of blood.
61:18>> No, I mean, you know, I've described to you the sort of the the non-medical things so far, but of course, you get into the hospital, and it was it Alexa Hospital, which is where I I was first based, is a small hospital. It's not a trauma. It's a very small hospital. It has a I think a bed capacity of 200 normally. There were something like 800 patients there. The the grounds of the hospital, the corridors, the waiting areas were covered in patients and their relatives. You could not you could hardly move. I mean, literally every time you walked into the hospital, you were treading over people who were lying
61:51there or sitting there.
61:53>> Um, and the trauma we saw at that time in December 2023, the the the the the the numbers of aerial bombardments was just non-stop. So we had mass casualty after mass casualty. It was really quite remarkable the awful trauma we were seeing. And this hospital, you know, the the the quality of the surgical care, the medical care is remarkable, but there's only so much you can do with limited resources. So the capacity was of the hospital was being repeatedly overwhelmed. Were you performing surgeries?
62:28>> Yeah. Yeah. I was I spent the whole time operating on major explosive injuries um bomb injuries and and these were injuries affecting so I'm a I do abdominal and thoracic surgery back home in Oxford so I was operating on the abdomen and the chest all the time and these were injuries at that time from explosive injuries and from the what are called the fragmentation missiles that were being used there and these are the the the bombs which have contain many thousands of very very small metal pieces which then act as thousands of pieces of shrapnel which tear through the human bodies. These are
63:09bombs which are designed to cause the maximum amount of tissue destruction and they did indeed do that. So we saw multiple civilians, children. 70% of the people I treated in that first trip were women and children being destroyed by these bombs. I mean I can talk about you know the the little brother and sister Allah and and and a six and six and an 8-year-old brother and sister who were the sole remaining members of their family. Uh their parents were killed by the bomb.
63:43>> Oh come on. Um, and I I you know I can I can see them in front of me as I'm talking to you about them. I can desri you know remember their injuries. We were treating them. This these were days when we had completely run out of all pain relief. So we had no painkillers to give them before surgery before surgerating them. Um little I 8-year-old girl had such a badly broken leg that it had cut off the blood supply to her foot. So that leg had to be straightened in order to stop the foot dying and that had to be done without any pain relief.
64:20And I I'm telling you this, I can hear her screams as that was done. So we we saw awful things and and and we we we a group of us who've been out there did a survey of of of about a hundred foreign healthare workers who've worked in the acute situations there. We had this published in the British Medical Journal, British Medical Journal, end of last year where we described the pattern of injuries.
64:48A and this has been widely disseminated in the medical world now because of the conclusions we drew. We described huge and terrible shrapnel injuries, gunshot wounds, burn injuries, but what we've described as multiple examples of high energy weapons being used in in in civilian populations. And the pattern of injuries that we described is a pattern that's only previously been described in true combat situations, i.e. when soldiers fight soldiers. The pattern of injuries we described using these high energy weapons, the missiles has never been described in civilian populations before in such high numbers.
65:35Which again supports the contention that many of us have spoken about saying that this is evidence of of of indiscriminate, deliberate, whatever, but but mass targeting of civilian populations.
65:51And when civilians are killed, by definition, it's murder because they're not part of it. Absolutely.
65:56>> They committed no crime. Um, what are injuries like from high explosive missiles, bombs?
66:06>> So, we we don't see those who are within a few hundred meters cuz they're killed outright. I mean, they get if they're very close, they get killed by the shock wave. If they're within a few hundred meters, they get destroyed by the shrapnel. So we see people who are several hundred meters away but they come in >> several hundred meters away.
66:23>> We see they come in with the most appalling injuries. These are you don't see the pieces of shrapnel. Often they're one or two millimeters. Um you don't see them. You don't find the majority of them but you see these multiple entry points throughout the chest throughout the abdomen and causing the most appalling damage. Um I learned a lot from the guards and surgeons. I I mean I work in Oxford. We don't see trauma like that. We don't see trauma like that anywhere in the world really.
66:49Um certainly not in the United Kingdom.
66:53Um so they had been dealing with this day in day and out. So I it was a very steep learning curve for me and for most of us coming from the UK dealing with this sort of shrapnel damage which we don't normally see. Um but just shredding their way through the lungs, through the diaphragm, through the liver, awful liver injuries, pancreas, bowel injuries.
67:15And of course, sometimes you see multiple injuries throughout the abdomen. So you have to laborously search out all the different holes and different things.
67:24>> So terrible injuries. And of course they they're life-threatening in their own right. But of course the the the very strong narrative from my most recent trip, although we called this out on earlier trips, was the malnutrition we saw. So the the starvation these patient patients coming in with these terrible injuries but also profoundly malnourished um and their inability to heal from injuries from the surgery. So that the the the mortality rate from these injures was far far higher than they should.
67:57>> I'm confused because we had a guy, an American called Johnny Moore, who's some sort of self-described Christian minister who ran the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, and we were assured directly by him that there's no starvation in Gaza because they were bringing in more than enough food aid.
68:16That's not true.
68:17>> Uh most certainly not true. Whether that's a deliberate lie or misinformation, I can categorically say there is no truth in that statement whatsoever. I spoke out about this publicly back in January 2024 when I that [clears throat] was 3 months into the we we we were beginning to see the signs of malnutrition. I was there again 6 months later it was much much worse. I was there again the following year and the the the the malnutrition. I mean I can I can reel off names of children who I operated on who died because they were malnourished. I mean I they're imprinted on my mind. Uh you know little Habiba a beautiful
69:0311-year-old girl who came in she wasn't malnourishing came in but she she had a severe explosive injury. her her lower esophagus was shattered. That's what I do in Oxford. I operate on the esophagus day in day out. I spend the whole of one night operating reconstructing her esophagus successfully. Um but because her esophagus was so damaged, she couldn't eat or drink. She was on a ventilator. We had to tube feed her. We had no nutrition to give her. She died after 4 weeks. Her repairs intact. She died because she had no nutrition.
69:41>> Because the hospital had nothing to give her.
69:42>> We had no nutrition to give her. We had no nutrition to give any patients at all, Tucker. No nutrition.
69:47>> Where was the rest of the world?
69:49>> Well, I mean, this is something we've called out repeatedly very publicly.
69:53Something I've told my government about that that there is a total blockade at that time. a [clears throat] total blockade which lasted about five or six months of any aid going into Gaza from March the 18th 2025 when the Israeli broke that ceasefire I was there in June and July there was a complete blockade no food going in I saw members friends of mine surgeons I'd been known for years one guy I didn't recognize him because he lost 40 kg in weight we all lo I lost 8 kg in in in in a month there because we had no very little food to eat. So the the malnutrition, the starvation was was appalling. And those commentators who
70:38claim there was enough food going in are being profoundly dishonest in saying that. But I mean, what was the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation doing then?
70:48>> Well, they were going on television bragging about how Johnny Moore was telling everybody that they were saving the people of Gaza.
70:53>> Well, they weren't at all. I mean the the so prior to that ENRA was distributing food. They were of course stopped by the but the Israelis. They were distributing food through over 400 food distribution points and within the limitations of what food was getting into Gaza. They were distributing it as well as they could. They were stopped completely. They were replaced by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation which had four food distribution points. Now, I didn't go to them because I wasn't able to cuz I was in the hospitals. It was too dangerous to leave the hospitals.
71:28You know, I was in NASA hospital where at one point the Israeli military were 200 m away. We couldn't go out at all.
71:34The only safe place we or the the least dangerous place was to stay in the hospital. So, but what I did see were the victims who had been shot at those Gaza Humanitarian Foundation food distribution sites.
71:50>> You personally saw them? I operated on many of them. Um a and I also had Garen colleagues, Garen health care workers who used to go out to the food distribution points, the GHF sites to get food. And these were they were all describing these these these food distribution sites as death traps. And the first inkling I had that um that that something horrible was going on there was I think on something like my fourth day there on my last trip. Um um I was called to the operating theater by one of my Gars and surgical colleagues who he had a 12-year-old boy on the operating table and he'd been shot. It had gone through his aorta. He
72:35was dying. He was bleeding. They couldn't stop the bleeding. So they asked for my help. I went in there. I couldn't stop it either. By which time he his clotting had all gone wrong. This happens in severe injury. So he was bleeding out from over and he died on the operating table under our hands.
72:52>> Awful. I mean you can imagine 12-year-old >> and his family told us who had come with him that he had been sent by these these are all starving. They're all very weak. So the the young teenage boys are the ones who are sent out cuz they're the strongest to get the food and he'd been shot by an Israeli soldier there and they witnessed this. Well, I I can't speculate any better than anyone else as to why this is happening. What I can do is I can document what I saw and I can document what I heard from and it was a similar story from all the victims families from those that survived from the victims themselves from GS and
73:35health care workers who went to these food sites in order to get food for their families. They all described the same things how these young teenage boys were being shot by Israeli soldiers. So that 12-year-old was shot and then I started hearing from many others and and a friend of mine who worked in the emergency room at NASA hospital, one of the people I was telling about earlier who had the previous year had been incarcerated in an Israeli prison for 60 days and been tortured daily. He'd recovered. He was now working. and he told me how they had noticed in the ER how there were different body parts
74:15being targeted on different days at the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation food distribution point. So one day he said uh and and and other emergency room doctors and nurses I knew corroborated this that 19 young teenage boys had all come in in one day all of whom had been shot in the head and neck. Nowhere else just the head and neck. Another day they came in predominantly with chest injuries. Another day they came in predominately with abdominal gunshot wounds. And we noticed this. I spoke started speaking to my fellow surgeons in the operating theaters and we all noticed this pattern as well. On one day
74:55the Saturday before I left NASA hospital to come home to England four young teenage boys were brought in all of whom had been shot in the testicles just the testicles.
75:08>> Nowhere else. And we the pattern of injuries that we all witnessed was so striking um that it was it was clearly beyond coincidental. And it seemed to us like there was a game of target practice.
75:24>> And these were all children who'd been shot, Palestinians who' been shot at Gazi Humanitarian Foundation food distribution sites.
75:31>> Absolutely. And I operate on a lot of them. I operate a lot of them with abdominal.
75:34>> Can you Okay. So if you're let's say you're in the business of distribut not the business you're you have the ministry to distribute food to the starving not to Hamas militants but just to families children the elderly and people start getting shot at your distribution sites. Don't you do something about that?
75:54How could the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation day after day allow starving people to be shot at their distribution sites? Um, your guess is as good as mine. T, >> but just try and put yourself in their position. Wouldn't you say, "Whoa, wait a second. We can't have this." Wouldn't you say that?
76:11>> Yes, I would. So I I I I I the the the description I got from many of my colleagues who went to them was that they the the food would all be laid out in a compound um and the gate would be locked and they'd wait there'd be enough food and again I got this description from many of my friends and colleagues who used to these are people who'd been working intense shifts in the hospital for 24 hours then before they went home they had to go and get food for their family starving. So there'd be this food in a compound and there'd be enough food for say 200 people in this compound. There'd be a narrow gate
76:48locked with everyone crowding outside.
76:51They would wait until there were four, five, 600 people queuing up outside, i.e. far more people than there was food allocated for and then they'd open this narrow um uh gate to get in and there'd be utter chaos and fighting to try and get that food. And that was when they were being picked out apparently with the shot. They were being shot trying to get in and shot in the pen by surrounding soldiers.
77:18>> Unarmed people.
77:19>> Unarmed. Unarmed people.
77:21>> Again, I I again I stress this is what's been described to me.
77:24>> Well, not just and not just by you. I mean, we interviewed Tony Aguilar, who was one of the American contractors hired to provide security for these sites, >> who described the same thing, and he watched his life overturned as he was slandered >> by Netanyahu's many defenders in our media, >> you know, paid liars by Johnny Moore, uh, who ran it, who's now affiliated with Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. And I I do hope that the people who run Liberty will sit Mr. more down and ask him to respond to what you've just said because you're describing a war crime, one of the most immoral, disgusting scenes I can
77:58imagine, which he oversaw. And so you you hate to think that someone like that could be rewarded by Liberty University in Lynburg, Virginia, uh after participating in that. So I just I just want this on the record. Not that it I guess probably matters. No one will pay any attention because no one has so far, but that's really upsetting.
78:16So the children the boys shot in the genitals even to ask but is that of something that can be fixed?
78:24>> Yeah. I mean they weren't my patients cuz I'm not a urologist but I remember when they came in cuz I was in the operating theater complex at NAS operating on people with gunshot wounds the abdomen and my close friends who are urologists had this succession of boys being brought in who they were operating on. So I didn't I wasn't involved in their care. Um, I didn't follow them up afterwards, but but I can verify they were shot in exclusively in the testicles.
78:51>> Oh, come on.
78:53>> And there were there were I mean it I remember that same day on on many of the days we got young boys being brought in from the GHF sites. There was a one of the GHF sites was in Al-Moasi. Um, and there were a lot of tents down there as well. And there were we saw a lot of injuries from quadcopter drones. These are remotely controlled fixedwing drones which hover. They have guns on them.
79:20They have cameras on them and they're flown all over the place in Gaza. We saw many people shot by them. They were flown into hospitals. One of my friends was shot in the chest in the operating theaters at NASA. Not when I was there.
79:32It was before I was there. A quadcopter was remotely controlled presumably by someone in Tel Aviv or somewhere. Flown into the hospital, shot him in the chest when he was in the operating theater.
79:43He's in the operating room.
79:44>> He's in the operating room early in the morning preparing the operating theater for a imminent operation when this cop quadcopter shoots him in the chest. He survived. I I was with him a few weeks later than that.
79:59>> Indoors.
80:00>> Indoors. Indoors. I also saw victims, young women who had been shot whilst in their tents in Almoasi um quadcopters hovering over the tents spraying bullets indiscriminately onto the tent. So I had one woman who was 3 months pregnant who came in with the gunshot wound we rubbed and I operated on. We saved her life.
80:25The baby survived as well, but the bullet had missed her pregnant uterus by about 2 or 3 cm.
80:31So we saw examples like that of these quadcopters spraying bullets onto the all the inhabitants of these tents.
80:39>> But I mean the quadcopters are controlled by remote by someone who can see what they're shooting at.
80:46>> Yes. I mean there's a a lot of speculation that a lot of them are being driven uh remotely using art artificial intelligence.
80:54>> That's not speculation.
80:55>> To Yeah. to to to help the targeting.
80:57So, but absolutely they were being controlled somehow and and going into hospitals spraying the tents in Alawasi. We saw many examples of that. I saw them on my first trip in in in December 2023. We saw in in Alexa, we had victims coming in from quadcopter.
81:17>> What did you think of all of this?
81:19>> I was uh you know, I was really skeptical when I was told on that first trip that these were quad. I didn't see any quadcopter. We heard you hear the drones the whole time. I could not believe what I was hearing. I I didn't believe a lot of it early on to be honest with you, Sucker. I I just I was naive. I assumed this was just I wonder there was propaganda.
81:43But I saw so much um on all these trips.
81:47I saw so much clear evidence of children and women being targeted that I would that I believe all of it.
81:57I mean much more than the average person. You spent your life around death and suffering and human drama. I mean, you're a cancer surgeon, so presumably you've got a higher tolerance for this than most people. I mean, obviously you do, but what effect did it have on you seeing this? You do get You're absolutely right. And and I think working with cancer, I've had patients, you know, die of their disease for decades. And you get, >> you know, I've always been a doctor who who I I I valued intensely the relationship I have with my patients. The and and there is you always have an emotional involvement. You you learn to control
82:36that, but of course you get emotionally involved with your patients because you care about them deeply. So yes, I am conditioned to deal with that. And I think doctors, nurses, healthcare workers are conditioned to to deal with these things.
82:48>> And when we're when we're operating on these appalling situations, these children uh when you have children dying under your hands on the operating table, you you you deal with it there and then you get on with it. But the aftermath later that night is and when you get back to to to England is awful. And I learned, we all learned a lot how to deal with the emotional turmoil we all experienced. And we shared a lot, we talked a lot late at night in the, you know, on on the on the fourth floor of NASA hospital.
83:30Incidentally, where the the most recent big massive bombing of the Israeli military on NASA hospital was on the fourth floor, which is they claimed coming back to one of your earlier questions, they claimed that was where Hamas militants were masquerading as as journalists. In fact, and it was not a clinical area. In fact, the fourth floor is where we were living. It's where the intensive care unit was. It's where the operating theater complex was. It was yet another clinical area being targeted by the Israeli military. But coming back to what you asked me about, we would at the end of the day, whether it was at
84:0110:00, midnight, 2 in the morning, we would talk and share the awful things we'd seen. And that was very therapeutic. It was really cathartic talking to each other and sharing.
84:11>> Were these mostly western doctors?
84:14>> Uh, no. No. I mean, yeah, there were a few Western doctors, but a lot of GS and doctors as well. So, we'd all congregate and, you know, I was meeting up with people, some people I'd known for years.
84:24Um but it was a mixture of gar and an western doctors all just sharing these appalling things and that was to an extent cathartic. It was it was very therapeutic, but it lo it it lingers with you and you know and and I I can very openly say that all of us who've been out there have been affected deeply emotionally but but I I want everyone to realize you know we're there for 2 three four weeks at a time. Our Garen colleagues and they're there. They've been seeing this day in day out for two and a half years. So whatever we have witnessed and seen they've seen far more worse. and the the the psychological
85:02trauma, the the the mental health damage is incalculable amongst all the Gauss and people. You get back to the UK and almost not entirely, but almost your entire media is conspiring to hide the truth of what's happening in Gaza and attacking anyone who calls attention to it. How do you feel about that? Um, profound anger. I mean, I I I I talk You have a real a very complex set of emotions when you leave Gaza. Having had a trip like this, you feel guilty that you're getting out and they can't get out. You feel immense sadness that you're you're you're leaving friends who, you know, may be killed. All my
85:47friends out there tell me, and they've said this repeated, they expect to be killed out there. You're leaving patients who probably won't survive. And you but you feel this incredible anger towards your government, towards our government, our media. And I I've you know, the the the media is not particularly interested in listening to what we say now, but but they were to to a degree then and particularly once we've just come out. Um, so I would I did a lot of media stuff and and they were individual journalist. There were some some wonderful journalists I've met and shared my experience with who've been
86:30desperately trying to get their media outlets to show this. You know, the BBC, I mean, the BBC's I think as an as a corporation's behaved appallingly over the last >> I think that's fair to say. Yes.
86:44Um, but that doesn't h that that, you know, there have been some wonderful BBC journalists who I know who've been desperately trying to get this out and have been thwarted. Some of them have ended up resigning because they've been so appalled. But there are many really worthy, passionate journalists who want to get the information out there, but they're being controlled and not being allowed to by their senior editorial boards. So, it's been hugely frustrating. Hugely frustrated. There are also people who've defended it flat out. Certainly here in the United States, there are many people in our media who
87:17basically just attack anyone who points out what's happening and and slander them as haters and Nazis. What do you think of that? I think it's I mean it's I mean it's profoundly dishonest. I think that so so I I think a lot about why people are denying this and why they're not allowing it to get out. I think there's certainly in my country there's a lot of cowardice um a huge amount of cowardice both in the media. I I talk a lot about how our institutions in the UK have failed Gaza, our academic institutions, our medical institutions, our associations, our royal colleges, they've all been silent. Um and our
88:00media clearly as well. So I think at one level there's a lot of cowardice.
88:03they're petrified they're going to be accused of being anti-semitic and that the appalling crime of anti-semitism has been terribly weaponized um as a result of what's going on and and people are petrified that if they do come out and say these things they will be accused publicly of being anti-semitic and of course that label lasts doesn't it?
88:26>> Oh yeah.
88:27>> So it it you can't have a job.
88:29>> Yeah. Exactly. So it's very difficult for them I think. Um but I think it's it's not it there are many example and it's much more malign than that. I think there are clear agendas to try and to to to try and shut this all up so that the truth doesn't get out. Um and I I you know I mean it's public knowledge many of our senior politicians are funded um you know a lot of their campaigns have been funded by um by various lobbies with with with with money from Israel. Um the >> I think all of your politicians >> all of our I mean I think it's out there in public know they've all I think you can look at the individual every single
89:08one of them has been so >> in all three major parties.
89:12Ye yes I spend with the major parties but yeah in reform labor counting reform is a major party now >> absolutely you're absolutely right um they have been and that's all public knowledge and and I think that that the I mean there's a wonderful I don't know if you read the book by called complicit by Peter Oorn it's it's he's a well-known uh British journalist who's written a book called I'd really urge everyone to read it um it's about the the way that the UK media the government has been complicit in this genocide died in Gaza and it lays bare all these things about how compromised our politicians are, how compromised our
89:48institutions are, how compromised our media is. I'll never forget maybe 10 years ago, you had this head of the Labor Party who was, you know, an old leftist, all kind of pro-s Soviet leftist. I didn't have much in common with him. I never really thought about him. Um but the one issue on which he was kind of different from you know the people who paid for the party was on Israel.
90:15He was skeptical of British support for the state of Israel. And I've never seen a man slandered like he was slandered.
90:23Now again it's not my role to defend him. I'm not British and I'm not, you know, an old leftist. But that guy was basically driven out of public life. And after that happened, the Labor Party just kind of swung into alignment with the Conservatives and with reform and basically the entire British political establishment is on the same page. Don't talk about Gaza. Israel is our closest ally. Shut up, Nazi. Am I imagining this? No. You It's You're portraying it exactly as it was. And and I you know, I'm not a politician. I've got no political agenda. My my role, I believe, is to bear witness to what I've seen out
91:00there. But I it it it it seems very very clear to me that this the that that the the weaponization of anti-semitism is rife through our society and it's being used to shut people up. And you know I I I I got to know Jeremy Corbyn quite well in the last two or three years. I've shared platforms with I was referring to Jeremy Corbin. Yeah. Yeah. and and and I don't I having spoken I don't believe there's an anti-semitic cell in his body. I I think he is passionately supportive of the Palestinians and that is what his motivation has been. He he he tried to get he pass tried to pass a bill through parliament to get a a
91:40tribunal to investigate what's been going on. It was clearly turned down. He ran his own independent tribunal to in to which I contributed my evidence as well and but there was evidence from a whole host of people. It's a publication worth looking at. Um, and it it it speaks volumes about the people who have have witnessed what's going on out in the in in Gaza and are are desperate to get the truth out there, what's really going on and and and describing how they've been how the the attempts to shut them down have been unacceptable.
92:13>> Well, so I think it's the only reason I bring this up, British politics is obviously not my world at all. I'm definitely nonpartisan when it comes to British politics, but I think at some point when it becomes clear what happened that there was, you know, the largest ethnic cleansing attempt since the Second World War, since the Nazis, uh, right on the edge of Europe, right across the Mediterranean from Europe, like right there with money and support from the United States and from Britain. The question is going to arise like, how did this happen?
92:45Where were the people who were supposed to say something about it? Like how are they able to do this in sight of the world and the world did nothing? And I think these are part of the answer.
92:54Yeah. I mean it is it is unfathomable how the world has allowed this to happen. But the evidence is is is I mean I've been to the International Criminal Court on several occasions to to give my evidence and the evidence they have is is vast amount of evidence they have now. really >> um huge amount of evidence cuz they've interviewed many many people like me who've been out there. I can speak from my own experience of what I've shown to senior politicians, what I've shown to the BBC, you know, I gave them I spoke to BBC journalists about my experience with those young teenage boys. I gave them all the evidence I've just shared
93:30with you. Um and the individual journalists were desperate to get it out there. Desperate. But they were not allowed to. Um and Well, I I listen, I wasn't partyed to the editorial discussions, but they were clearly being held back by their seniors and they never got out there. I mean, I've spoken about it >> on camera on >> on camera. So, >> and they never aired it, >> but So I No, I I've spoken about on camera. That evidence I gave was all independent was was separate non-public evidence. Yes, >> they never they were they were wanting to develop that into a into a detailed story which they never did. So I've only
94:10ever shared that on brief interviews on on media in the UK. That is remarkable.
94:16>> But they wouldn't show it. But I mean there are many examples like that. They they've they have not been you know you just have to hear every single BBC um reference to Gaza to to the death to the figures of death. They'll always talk about the Hamasled Ministry of Health. That is clearly a senior policy.
94:35Whenever you mention the Gazen Ministry of Health, you have to say that the Hamas le Garen Ministry of Health >> in order to discredit their finances.
94:42>> Precisely.
94:45>> I can see why you're a threat to that propaganda operation because you're not working for Hamas, you're working for Oxford.
94:54So, you have more credibility.
94:57So, I can see why they wouldn't want to air.
94:59>> Yeah. So, so the response is either not to show what we've said or or we get accused of not by the BBC but other other agencies of of lying or >> Have you been accused of lying?
95:12>> Multiple times. Yeah. Yeah.
95:15>> What would your motive be for lying?
95:17>> Well, no motive at all. And I I'm I I'm at pains to point out repeatedly that that I I'm a humanitarian. I'm not a politician. I I am a humanitarian and I am reporting what I've seen with my own eyes. I've borne witness to what I believe to be war crimes almost on a daily basis. I've, you know, the clearest evidence I can imagine in the absence of being an international lawyer of genocide being carried out, ethnic cleansing being carried out. It seems to me I I I I'm astonished that anyone can look at the evidence and not see what is going on there. And the evidence is so clear that I think those that
96:07refuse to acknowledge it are have a have malign intentions in suppressing that.
96:14And it's hard not to see design in all of this. I mean the IH definition of anti-semitism which now has the force of law in a lot of the world it is a crime to say certain things thanks to this definition and in that definition one of the examples given is any comparison between the actions of the Israeli government and the German Nazi regime of the 1930s and4s it kind of seems like because that's the obvious compar of course it's the obvious comparison it kind of seems like that was preemptive attempt to keep people from noticing the obvious.
96:51>> Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I I see the great value of my test with describing what I seeing rather than trying to make comparisons with other.
97:01And I think I think that and I've seen many other healthare workers when they do this with all the best of intentions, but it dilutes the strong message I can give and I don't want to distract from that. So I I will I will I think the the the evidence I can describe in my own eye my own eyewitness testimony is so powerful by itself that um that I'll stick to that side.
97:27>> I think that's very wise uh and more powerful. I agree with you. Do you think what's happening in Gaza is well known within Israel?
97:35>> I have no idea. I mean, it it it it seems very difficult to believe they don't know what's going on, but I guess we've witnessed repeatedly the propaganda coming from Israeli spokesman who speak to our media. Um, I can only imagine that it's, you know, it's much more extent than that what's going internally. So, >> I think that's right. So I mean the I I I I remember I don't know about a year ago just as an example of the appalling propaganda the BBC talks repeatedly about how they have to have a balanced approach to this and it's a false balance we all know it's a false balance so they will give x amount
98:16of minutes to someone speaking up for what's going on in Gaza and they'll give the same amount of time to an Israeli spokesman and about a year ago they interviewed my closest friend in Gaza who I've known for many many many years an inspirational doctor. And by the way, we we talk about all the horrors, the atrocities, the the the sheer evil that I've seen with my own eyes. I've also seen the the very very best of humanity, some of the most inspirational heroes, wonderful people. One of them is this very old friend of mine who I've known for for since 2010, since my first trip.
98:53He was interviewed, he's a doctor in Gaza. Um he was interviewed um by the BBC, the radio for today program which is our sort of flagship news program in the morning. Um and they gave him six seven minutes and he interviewed brilliantly. Um and then immediately after that they introduc they interviewed a one of the Israeli spokesman called David Mensah who had you used to work in in in I think he headed up UK uh Labour Friends of Israel or something but anyway he was interviewed and he starts off by saying well it's important your listeners understand that we know that man who you just interviewed is not a proper doctor.
99:33we know he is a um senior commander in the Hamus military and that that that you cannot accept anything of what he said for the truth. Now I'm not talking about my opinion here. I'm talking about what are clear facts. I know this man.
99:50I've known him for 16 years. He's an inspirational doctor. What this man David Mensah was saying was were clear lies and deliberate lies. So I contacted the BBC through some of my contacts and got through to the editorial boards and said, "Listen, you you you've knowingly allowed this man to speak lies. You know the these are not different of opinions.
100:17These are out andout lies. You need to give me the right reply. Speak up for this man who's been maligned on this."
100:24And they they debated it, but they didn't let me have any right. And their argument was we feel they've had a balance. They both had seven minutes and that was a balance. And of course that's their stock answer which is a a false balance is not giving equal exposure.
100:40It's got to be so frustrating to live in a country like that.
100:43>> Appalling.
100:44Are there any politicians in the UK that you think are open to doing something about this?
100:51>> Most certainly. I've met many and again so it's like the journalist. I've met many great journalists who want to I've met many backbench MPs who are appalled by this the the the you know the Green Party Zach I've not met Zack Balonsky Palansky but he's spoken out at length I've I've spoken at length to Jeremy Corbyn Zara Sultana many backbench MPs in the Labour party the the SMP party in Scotland has been brilliant in in speaking up the Lib Dems have had people there've even been one or two Tory backbenches who've been very very outspoken and very supportive. So there are many people there and
101:29they are all waking up. They have all woken up. The we've had some incredible marches in the UK. You'll have seen pictures of them, you know, getting on for a million people sometimes marching in London in support of Gaza. They're not hate marches as we're being told by reform and the conservatives and our right-wing media. These are pe I've been on many of them with my wife, my daughter who are avid marchers. Um they're peace march. They're supporting the the guars and people who are being ethnically cleansed of being [clears throat] who are undergoing a genocide. But that has had an impact. it
102:08that there is a huge pressure being exerted by the people who who've woken up to what's going on via going going to their MPs and they are having an impact.
102:19I mean it's nothing like enough and of course it's far too late but but there are a lot of backbench MPs who I think are appalled. It's interesting though you say it's the right-wing media in the UK that's supportive of Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing in Gaza. In the United States, it's kind of the opposite. It's it's a lot of former Trump voters who are maddest about what's happening in Gaza. What I mean, there's no reason any nationalist should support what's happening in Gaza. How is that good for the UK? How is that good for the United States? Why do you think conservative media and politicians in
103:00the UK have been roped into supporting something that's terrible for the UK?
103:06I I mean I I I don't know the answer to that and I guess it's it's we'd include I mean I think our mainstream parties are all like that now and I think the the media supporting the mainstream parties. There's very few media outlets in the UK which are supportive of what's going on in Gaza.
103:22So it's perhaps not just the right wing but I think they are the they are the the the [clears throat] most vocal about this. Um I I I don't know. I mean I think >> so disappointing.
103:33>> It is. I I think the the the book I mentioned complicit by Peter Oorn goes into this in a lot of detail and it's some some fascinating insights but it it is it does seem to be there's a very very vocal uh sort of group of commentators on the right who who who who speak out a lot in support of Israel and and and are very successful in in calling out those who are speaking against it. Ah, that's so depressing. How are you treated by the Israeli government when you transit through Israel? Can you go there now?
104:09>> Uh, I'm I've not been able to get in in the last few months. I'm trying to go.
104:13I'm hoping to go in in August, but you never know. They they've in the in the last few months, they've stopped all people. The majority of people like me who have spoken out have been stopped from going in. They've now banned more than 36 NOS's from taking medics into Gaza. MSF has been um has been banned from going in. Other very well-known humanitarian organizations have been banned completely. So about a year, maybe more than a year ago, no, about a year ago, the Israelis announced they were introducing a new registration process for um agencies that wanted to take in doctors to work there and
105:02which of course is against international law because we don't have to be ready.
105:06We go into work in the occupied Palestinian territories and our authority is given to us by the Palestinian Authority. But nevertheless, you have to go through the Israeli borders. Um, and their registration process, the the the document details exclusion criteria as to what you know what would prevent us being registered. One of them is that if any any if the organization itself or any member of the organization or any volunteer with the organization has at any time in the last seven years criticize the state of Israel, that organization will be banned from working in Gaza or the West Bank. Now, that will
105:47that will exclude a significant majority of of of the most prominent humanitarian [laughter] organizations. you probably wouldn't be there in the first place if you supported what Israel was doing if you were for ethnic >> cleansing. So it's made it very very difficult for for um humanitarian teams to get in there.
106:08>> So how do hospitals in the one remaining hospital in Gaza which by the way I should ask at the out outset what do you think the population of Gaza is right now?
106:16>> So I it's a good question. So the the official figures from the Ministry of Health recognized by the United Nations and indeed recognized by the Israeli military now is about 76,000 killed by trauma alone. The Lancet Medical Journal which has published brilliantly >> 76,000 >> just from trauma. The Lancet medical journal which has published brilliantly estimates because there are many thousands of people buried under the rubble including friends of mine. So they estimate with with with great authority I think that that has underestimated it by about 50%. So there are probably a 100,000 killed directly by trauma but that
107:05excludes the excess deaths. We remember that term from the COVID pandemic. those people dying of non-co related cause like cancer or kidney disease in Gaza there has been no cancer really being treated for 2 and a half years >> no kidney disease many of the diialysis machines in Shifa hospital were destroyed by the Israeli army when they went in there so there are many other there's 350,000 people in Gaza who have chronic illnesses that require regular medical treatment which aren't being treated so there are many infectious diseases malnutrition we've talked about. So there are many many people
107:44dying of excess deaths. Now the Lancet estimates again the Lancet estimated 18 months ago that that figure was probably about 180,000 on top of the trauma deaths. There are other estimates and of course these are difficult to be overly accurate but there are some estimates that the that it's at least several hundred thousand. And I heard one estimate saying it was over half a million excess deaths. Now even if you just take the first perhaps conservative Lancet figure of 186,000 when you include the trauma deaths that's over a quarter of a million. That is well over 10% of the population of Gaza. And the
108:26more extreme examples are more than 20% of the population of Gaza. So the population of Gaza in on October the 6th, 2023 was about 2.2 million. It's certainly under 2 million now.
108:41I mean it's it's shocking and for that whatever that number is but over a million people there's one major hospital that's it. So yeah, I mean so NASA hospital is the only really major hospital still functioning but but but it is not functioning fully. I mean I was when I was there we run out of stuff the whole time I talked about often having no painkillers to give patients.
109:08Um we had I had one twoe period when we had no sterile drapes to use in the operating theater. So we you know use sterile drapes to create a sterile operating field so you can operate reducing the risk of infections.
109:23We had one twoe period when we had no sterile drapes. So we had to sort of make our owns out of gowns and you know we couldn't create proper sterile fields. We we had another period of time when we had no running water in the operating theaters. So we couldn't scrub up properly. So we had to use alcohol jelly on our hands.
109:40>> Oh come on. There are occasions and I've talked about the lack of nutrition given given to patients. We had some days when you know there's been no electricity in Gaza since October the 7th. So the hospitals are totally reliant upon um their own fuel sources to keep which they get some from the United Nations as well. But they're always under threat of running out of fuel and there have been multiple examples when fuel has run out of the hospitals. So when the fuel runs out, there is no power. When there's no power, the ventilators don't work. So patients on ventilators die. When there's no fuel, the powers for the
110:19incubators for the newborn babies can't work. So those babies die. There was a a a an episode about 18 months ago, I think, an al-Nasa pediatric hospital in Gaza City, I think about 18 months ago, when the Israeli military invaded the hospital kicked out all the local staff and there were six neonates left in the incubators when they were kicked out and they said, you know, there are six babies there and they were assured they'd be fine. The Israeli military left after two or 3 weeks and that the the the the doctors you some of whom I knew went back in there and those six babies were there in the incubators dead
111:01their bodies rotting.
111:02>> Oh, come on now.
111:03>> And there are many other similar stories like that.
111:09So, you know, these things are happening.
111:10>> You feel that your tax dollars go to the Israeli government? I I'm appalled and I I I'm disgusted and and and I've said this to our politicians. You know, we've we've gone and spoken to them. We've spoken to our prime minister. A few of us spoke to him and Kier Starmer.
111:27>> Yeah. To Kir Starmer. I mean, it was and and we've talked about, you know, the fact that our government is still, you know, they claim there's an arms embargo. There isn't. We're still supplying parts for the F-35 jets. are the Royal Air Force is flying reconnaissance flights from Cyprus over Gaza on a daily basis, giving military intelligence to the Gaza. Why? To the Israeli military? Because of the relationship we have with Israel?
111:55Because of our support for Israel. Since Israel murdered so many British diplomats and military officers at the founding of the country, why why would the British government owe anything to Israel, which again was founded by murdering representatives of the British government?
112:13>> You're absolutely right. And I don't know the answer to that. I mean, we can all speculate, but it is bizarre. I don't understand it. I mean I I I it there is the clearest evidence in my view that that you know our governments are complicit in what's going on there and they need to be held to account.
112:33Last question. Do you plan to go back?
112:35>> Yes, I'm trying to get in in in August.
112:38I've applied to go in. I many of the the NOS's that that I know well have been banned. So I'm trying to go in with another one at the moment. Um, so I hope to I I I know that because I've spoken out so much, the chance of Israel refusing me entry is very high, but I will keep going. I will keep trying.
112:58>> We're killing you once you get there.
113:01>> Yeah. I mean, these there's there's no question that being in Gaza is is unbelievably dangerous.
113:09I've been injured out there from a from a bomb injury. Um, there's no question that it's very dangerous, but statistically there has not yet been a single foreign doctor killed there and I'm not in any way understating the the dangers of being there and of course is a very dangerous place and of course one you know at times you feel fear when you're out there but trying to explain what and I'm speaking on as many others would what motivates us whatever we feel at any one time one time is a complex mix of a whole different set of emotions. So fear is one of them. Um desire to be there helping your friends
113:50is a very powerful >> yes >> uh incentive and that to me when I'm out there is by far and away the dominant emotion. So that outweighs any fear we may have. And that's and it's you know I'm not it's not just it's a lot of us are like this. We we we have this we're so disturbed by what's going on there.
114:13We're so disturbed by how by by how how much our governments are are complicit in this. What is being done to the gardens is so fundamentally wrong.
114:28Not just in the last two years but for decades.
114:32what's being done to them is so fundamentally wrong that that those of us who've had the great privilege of knowing and loving the the Garzen people for so many years and working with them have this absolute obligation and I couldn't imagine doing it any other way of having to go out there and help them.
114:52>> What does your family think?
114:53>> Um very supportive. My wife Fenula um is as passionate as I am about the GSAs and the Palestinians. We I mentioned earlier we have a we have a a Garzen daughter informally a Garzen daughter called Enas who we we love dearly. She's she's never been able to go back to Gaza. She's become a member of our family. Um we we're our house has been a over over years has been a bit of a refuge for GS and medical students and Garen doctors who've managed to escape. They often come and stay with us or we fix them up with other friends for accommodation.
115:28We've managed to take two wonderful GS and medical students into Oxford. We've managed to get them part of our medical school now in Oxford. So my wife I could I don't think I could do all of this without Fenula's support and she's she's a genu as as heroic as any of us in in in in supporting me in this respect and my kids likewise. I mean, my daughter, I've got a daughter and two sons. They're all very passionate. My daughters are full-time activists most of the time. Um, but they're all very supportive. And of course, before I go, I go and talk to them all individually and explain. They know why I'm going and
116:04they they I go with their complete blessing.
116:08Godspeed, Dr. Maron, thank you very much.
116:11>> Thank you very much for meeting me and I've really enjoyed it. It's >> got me going.
116:20If you made it through the end of that, thank you for watching.
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