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17:20[music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Go live on Jimmy door.
18:29Hi everybody. Welcome to today's show. I still have a cold. I can't believe seven days going on seven days. I take every supplement in the world, including Ivormectin.
18:40And uh it's still I mean I taking I'm taking real deal supplements. I'm taking that coax 10. I'm taking sulfurane or whatever the hell. All that stuff you see Hooverman talk about and that lady.
18:54I'm taking all that stuff. I'm taking uh liposomaal vitamin C.
18:59>> Jimmy Gmenta says, "Wow, hair looks great even with a cold." [laughter] >> I am I I'm very proud of uh my hair and uh it costs a lot of money. Costs a lot of money, but it was worth it. I don't have kids, so what am I going to spend my money on? Buy, you know, that's why I get to eat at restaurants and get hair transplants because I don't have kids.
19:24But anyway, uh let's bring in our first guest. Oh, very exciting. Uh Chris Hedges is with us. Puliter prizewinning journalist. Took second place to St. Ma Power and a [laughter] book award.
19:37He's an activist and best-selling author of 12 books, including a genocide forld reporting on survival and resistance in occupied Palestine. That's not out yet, is it Chris?
19:48>> No, that one's out. the one I did with Joe Sako where we that's those are kind of essays, you know, but the um but the book we just did, we interviewed 29 families in Egypt who had fled Gaza. We tell the story of the genocide through their experiences. That's called Reququum for Gaza and that'll come out.
20:09Phanographics is publishing it in October.
20:12>> Okay. How how do I how did I I never miss a book by you. I missed that one. A genocide forld. Son of a gun. Anyway, he uh previously hosted the Emmy nominated show On Contact for RT America. That seems a lifetime ago. Uh >> you can't you can't watch it, Jimmy, because YouTube erased my six years of shows. So >> that's Yep. That's right. Uh because you know YouTube's all about uh democracy, freedom, liberty. Uh his writings now and his podcast, the Chris Hedges report, can be found on his Substack at chrised.substack.com. substack.com.
20:48And uh Chris Hedges, you're you're always so uh accommodating of my schedule. I appreciate you uh and your great insight. That's my Judge Npalitano interview. That's my intro. Anyway, Chris Hedges, welcome to the show. Good to see you, buddy.
21:03>> Thanks, Jimmy. Thanks for having me.
21:06>> You know, uh Judge Npalitano has the rotating guests of people of your stature. I'm surprised.
21:12>> I've never been on his show.
21:13>> I'm surprised. Oh, >> I was ask Have you, Jimmy?
21:17>> Uh, no. No. He's never He's [laughter] never asked me for my expert opinion.
21:25>> No. No. Uh, so, um, let's get to it. So, this is your latest at your Substack, the rise of the global south. And, uh, in it you you it's that subhead. says, "The war on Iran has not only ended in humiliating defeat for the United States, but resulted in a dramatic shift in the balance of power in the Middle East and the global south." And here's just a little bit from that article. The humiliating defeat of Israel and the United States and their war on Iran along with the savagery of the ongoing genocide in Gaza are ushering in a new world order. This order is one where voices of reason and stability emanate
22:08not from the west which spent tens of billions of dollars sustaining Israel's genocide but from the global south including China. It is an order where alliances are losing rapidly reconfigured to protect I'm sorry are being rapidly reconfigured to protect countries from a rogue American state that lashes out like a wounded beast as it spirals toward terminal decline. Now, first of all, my first question, has Israel and the United States suffered a humiliating defeat?
22:41>> Yes. I mean, they may bomb again. Um but Iran holds all the cards because it has a strangle hold on 20% of the seaborn natural gas and oil uh and uh can it's already of course created catastrophic consequences in countries like India uh and uh you know Banglad and the Philippines and everywhere else. Um, in the United States, we have a buffer because we're a net exporter of oil. But nevertheless, diesel is up to almost $5 a gallon. Uh, and and we've been cushioned because, uh, Trump has drained 40% of our strategic reserves and petroleum. Japan has had to now go in twice into their strategic reserves.
23:29They get about 90% of their oil from uh through the Gulf. Um, so they they can't you can't wait much longer. I mean, we're work weeks, I don't know, maybe a few months, I don't know, but we're not that far away from a global depression unless the strait is opened up. Uh, so yeah, it's been a complete catastrophe.
23:51Remember, it used to be free passage through the straight before this war was launched. Uh, the Gulf countries, which our Gulf allies, where US bases are, they were not consulted. No one was consulted. Our European allies which have want nothing to do with this project were not consulted. Uh they were attacked. Uh the interceptor missiles were prioritized for Israel. Uh there was significant damage not and and to our installations mostly the radar installation which cost hundreds of millions of dollars. So by the end uh the the both the Israelis and the Americans if they weren't blind uh they uh oftenimes didn't know where incoming
24:31missiles were actually the trajectory of incoming missiles. Um so yeah it's been an utter catastrophe.
24:40uh Iran uh has you you've seen countries like Pakistan uh move in to fill the kind of vacuum including in Saudi Arabia where they've sent fighter jets and all sorts of other things and provided a kind of security umbrella. No, this has been I mean many people liken it to the 1956 Suez crisis when Gamil Abdaser in Egypt nationalized the Suez and the Israelis and the French and the British went in to in this blundering effort to militarily seize the Suez Canal and then actually Eisenhower intervened to end it. That was they many people marked that as the death of the British Empire especially because the pound sterling
25:20was removed as the world's currency and you saw the rise of the petro dollar. Um but yeah, I mean the the empire has been in long decline. I think you can go all the way back to Vietnam. Uh in the last 25 years, we've had six different wars, all of which we've lost. Um but Trump is uh you know, he's you couldn't sort of find a a a Caligulaike figure uh better to uh accelerate the implosion of the American Empire. So yeah, it's it's it's uh there's this is there's just no good outcome for Israel and the United States.
26:00I [clears throat] I remember the last time we talked, I was I was under the impression that Trump was going to be less of a warmer [laughter] than than Biden was. I I have a lot of egg on my face over that. But that's quite a con. He he pulled in in in his I mean I haven't seen a con job like that since uh you know Nigerian princes learned how to email. I mean that was quite a con uh his his campaign. Was it not? I mean it it duped a lot of people smarter than me but you didn't get duped.
26:33Well, because that he you know everything that comes out you can't trust anything that comes out of uh his mouth is in you know his entire uh trajectory his entire career has been conning people one way or another whether it's I mean I wrote a book America the farewell tour I was kind of looking at the American pathologies of the breakdown of American society and there was a chapter on gambling so I wrote it out of Trump's Taj Mahal in Atlantic City >> I didn't know Trump was going to run for president at the time and he had driven the Trump Taj into bankruptcy. Half of the the hotel and casino was mothballled
27:13was closed off. There were literally rodents running around the corridors.
27:19The people were shooting up in the elevators. Uh and that's kind of a a good metaphor for where he's taking the country. I think you have to look I wrote a column a little while ago called uh America's a banana republic. And you know, I lived in Latin America for six years, but you know, El Presidente Trump is really no different from all these Calos and dictators that I either covered or read about in Latin America, uh, you know, such as Truillo in the Dominican Republic or Anastasio Tacito Samoa in Nicaragua or Francis Papa Doc Duvet in Haiti. Uh, you know, they're they're all the same and they they act
27:59the same. I mean I mean it just the playbook is remarkably uh similar. You know you had for instance Duva would show huge billboards of himself uh around Haiti with Jesus Christ with a hand on his shoulder with the caption I have chosen him. You know, the ICE thugs are very similar to his 15,000 strong tonal makud, these secret police who tortured and killed and shot I think I don't know up to nobody knows 30,000 60,000 of his opponents. uh you know he he resembles Venezuela's old dictator Juan Vicente Gomez who looted the country the same way he's Trump and his family are looting the country to
28:47become the wealthiest person in Venezuela. Um you know there is this there's kind of no bribe too small, no violation too egregious, uh no stupidity too absurd and all descent is treason. I mean, so I've seen it all before. So, yeah, I didn't uh I think your mistake was was um believing that Trump means what he says. He doesn't I mean, this guy shifts with the winds. I mean, he shifts within the same he contradicts himself within the same statement.
29:21>> So, yeah, I I did read the America the farewell tour. It's quite a light read, pick me up, kind of a [clears throat] good feeling. [laughter] Um uh now um but Trump did have a first term where it's he seemed to resist starting new wars. So that's what I was basing it on. Uh why so do you think that was just a head fake to wait for his second term to do all this crazy wararm mongering and uh and this crazy corruption that he's doing? I mean he did have that first term, right? Yeah, he had that fat first term, but he was surrounded by establishment figures Matthysse and others who essentially reigned him in.
30:06And that's courtesy of Project 2025.
30:10That's something that And remember, Trump is just a figurehead. I mean, Trump's a very limited >> Yeah.
30:15>> person intellectually, um, not to mention morally, but the people around him know precisely what they're doing.
30:21and uh they are deconstructing the administrative state about to abolish the department of education have already you know gone after anything that has to do with the common good. I mean from national parks to FEMA to the EPA it's all being eviscerated. Um and this is their project. So they get to hand Trump this Sharpie and the executive order. I don't know that Trump's even read it.
30:45Um, but it's a it's a completely different uh group of at the center of governance and uh and so there was and that was part of Trump's frustration.
30:56Remember that um you know even his chief of staff and they they were intervening to uh curb his impetuosity and his stupidity. I mean, the fact that Donald Trump can decide to go to war with Iran, uh, and is, you know, this is a guy who knows nothing about the Middle East or much less Iranian culture or history and assume that, uh, you know, this kind of Alice and Wonderland [snorts] fantasy that was sold to him, of course, by the Israelis. I mean, remember, BB's been trying to push a war in Iran for three decades. Y >> uh and you know the we'll decapitate the leadership and people will come out into
31:36the street and the Kurds will you know come over the border and uh and the regime will collapse and they won't even have time to close the straight of Hormuz. I mean even Trump's own intelligence chiefs and military advisers from all we can tell at least according to the New York Times thought this was crazy. Uh but Trump made the decision to go and and here's where we are. he, you know, he's he's whatever comes out of this is is going to be very very favorable to Iran. Uh the Iranians, I mean, for 47 years, the United States has sought to uh through sanctions and everything else to control uh and limit
32:18the reach and power of Iran. Um and now uh Iran is the dominant power within the Middle East. This is why BB Netanyahu is freaking out. Uh and and they there are there are non-negotiable demands. They have hundred million dollars, no it must be hundred billion dollars, sorry, in in uh frozen assets that they want released. Uh they will control the straight of Hormuz and it's $2 million a ship to go through. Well, they let Chinese ships and Pakistani ships go through which is kind of interesting. Um, and they want it paid in the Chinese currency. Uh, because that's part of the assault on the petro
32:59dollar to destroy the hegemony of the US dollar. Um, uh, they, uh, you know, want guarantees that they're they've been attacked twice. These are unprovoked attacks. Iran did not threaten anyone in the region. Uh, [clears throat] they want guarantees through the UN and everywhere else that they won't be attacked again. But more importantly, what this has done within the region is essentially uh uh ex shown to American allies the impetence of American power, the the limitations of American power.
33:33Uh and that's why you're seeing countries like uh Turkey or Pakistan move in to fill that void. Um so it you it's a very rapidly changing world. It's been changing for a while. Um, but it's it's clear that our allies don't trust us. Whether those allies are in the Gulf, whether they're in Europe, whether they're anywhere else and and the voices of stability and prudence and reason are not emanating out of Washington. I mean, didn't he he just threaten to bomb Oman?
34:04Uh, obliterate Oman. Uh, they're emanating out of Beijing.
34:09So uh I don't the whole deal was the United States would provide security for the Gulf States.
34:18>> Yeah.
34:19>> In return for the petro dollar for them uh selling oil only in US dollars. Uh but now it's manifest as you say that the United States is unable to protect them. No matter how many military bases we have in the Gulf States, Iran can just drone them and we have no we can't stop those drones and uh or their missiles and that's why how why they can control the strait. Uh so the the what what is in it for the Gulf States to still be be an ally of the United States instead of being an ally of China and Russia right now?
35:00>> Well, that's the point. Remember, they were not consulted either. I mean, Trump just with BB just launched the war. So, they didn't even know it was coming.
35:07They didn't want it. And the as the THAAD missiles and the other interceptors were being depleted, they were prioritized for Israel.
35:16>> Right.
35:18>> So, uh this this has sent a very clear message, as you just said, to our traditional allies in the Gulf. And in fact, these bases, far from protecting them, are just magnets.
35:31Uh and you've already seen Saudi Arabia by the remember uh Muhammad bin Salman, my favorite assassin who killed my friend Jamal Kashugi. Um but he went to Mara Lago and and Trump really insulted him. I remember if you don't remember that he, you know, said something about he has to kiss my ass or >> Yeah. Well, this was a very stupid thing to do, but you know, in a long list of stupid things to do, and Saudi Arabia has been backing away from and that's why you see this alliance between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. So, yeah, I mean, Trump is just uh he's like Barry Weiss at CBS, but on a bigger scale. He's just
36:08a human hang grenade. Um, and he's just imploding what's left of the empire right and left.
36:15So in in the your article uh you write that empires in decline blunder into conflicts with little understanding of where they are headed and they alienate their allies which is exactly what Trump has done. Uh so what what stage of imperial decay do you think the United States has entered and is there any plausible path to a managed decline rather than a chaotic collapse?
36:44>> Yeah. Well, that's a good point because the British Empire was managed decline, but I don't think you're going to get managed decline under uh Hegsth and Rubio [laughter] and Trump.
36:58Uh what you're going to get is implosion. Well, I think we're already at a state of implosion. Uh because these people have no I mean, the difference between the United States and Iran is that Iran had a strategy.
37:11Asymmetrical warfare.
37:14uh that the kind of creating grids where military commanders had autonomy in case central command broke down. Uh the fact that they had buried their ballistic missiles deep underground. That's why when you saw images of them being launched, they kicked up these huge dust storms and the New York Times reported the other day that 70% of their missiles are still uh intact. Um, so the Iran had a strategy and and they didn't go after the American ships which stayed about 800 miles away because they didn't want to get sunk with uh, you know, Iranian missiles. Um, they waged highly successful asymmetrical warfare which
37:57and I covered the insurgencies in Central America for 5 years. That's how you know weaker countries can defeat larger countries through asymmetrical warfare. And that's what Iran did. But we had no strategy. It was a non-realitybased belief system as I mentioned before based on you know the fictions that Netanyahu sold to a very gullible Trump.
38:22Uh not unlike the you know non-reality based belief system that led us into the war in Iraq. And then again, you saw this small cabal of Cheney and Lewis Scooter Libby and Wolawitz and Pearl ignore all of the assessments made by both the Pentagon and the CIA uh to push us into 20 years of a fiasco uh in [clears throat] Iraq and and and uh jumpstart well turbocharge and a very virulent insurgency by uh essentially creating chaos by dismantling the administrative state and and disbanding the military and everything else. So, it's it's [clears throat] it it's that's what happens with empire at the end. Uh
39:11it it seeks to regain a lost hegemony, a lost global dominance through military adventurism, but that only accelerates the decline. And that's true at the end of every empire. arming the Austrohungarian Empire which stumbled like the Germans into World War I. Uh the Athenian Empire that uh uh you know attacked uh Sicily and all its fleet was sunk and everything else. So that's what empires do. They um they become their they become their own worst nemesis and that's of of course precisely where we are.
39:49>> And and so you know How um so you say this has uh empowered the global south and China. What do what do you when people use the term global south what do you mean by that?
40:05I mean the the the traditional west I mean I think Israel is sort of you know although it's not in the northern hemisphere it's it's part of that but it's these traditional alliance among alliances among heavily industrialized nations that are predominantly in the global north but I think the genocide has been very important we haven't spoken about it u this livereamed genocide has sent a very stark message to the global south and remember the global south has suffered genocides of and holocausts of its own. It's not so much recognized by western perpetrators but Namibia uh with the Herrerero and
40:46the Namaka these are under the Germans the the Indians and British I mean the 1943 Bengal famine I think it was 3 million Indians died because the British were taking all the grain to support the war effort uh and you know Churchill's response was to call them a beastly people with a beastly religion I mean so there there's always with within over the British domination of uh Kenya and the genocide that was committed against the Culu uh imperial reckoning a very fine uh by a Harvard historian very great book on that so uh so there's already an acute awareness of the this propensity to carry out genocide within western
41:32culture uh but the genocide in Gaza was a stark message as the climate breaks down and that is that we'll stop at nothing even genocide uh and there's a very good book by a great Indian writer Pankage Mishra called the world after Gaza that I highly recommend so or you can go on YouTube and I gave a lecture on this at Princeton University um on the same subject um so yeah so within the global south uh that whatever veneer or mask of uh you know the concern for human rights and democracy and that's completely completely been obliterated because it's not just that we blocked resolutions at the UN to
42:15censure Israel but you know the the western states the UK Germany uh the United States pumped tens of billions of dollars in there to sustain the genocide. Israel ran out of its stockpiles a few months into the genocide. Uh, and that of course was I mean this gets to the I mean the one of the re another reason we're in such trouble is the cluelessness of the Democratic party. You know they just issued this uh you know apparent critique of the Camala Harris campaign and what she spent $ 1.5 billion dollars. I mean this vapid issueless celebrity driven campaign and they'd even mention Gaza. 77% of registered Democrats want
43:01to cut uh military aid to Israel, but you know, they they're just they're part of the problem. They are locked into their own kind of fantasy world driven by corporate money and corporate power. Uh and and that I think is one of what what I find so frightening is there's no credible opposition. Well, that's that's [clears throat] the it so it seems like the American people have woken up to what has actually been the game since 9/11.
43:30>> Yeah.
43:31>> And um and a lot of people actually voted for Donald Trump because he said they he was with the American people. No more foreign wars. We're wasting all billions of dollars in American blood and treasure. And it's, you know, crazy and stupid. That's what got him elected the first time and the second time, I would say. But of course, uh, the Democrats are for Trump's agenda in Gaza. They're for his keeping the Ukraine war going. Uh, that that they won't uh they keep voting down uh Congress the War Powers Act to take control. And so we even though, like you said, the American people are overwhelmingly against, it's just
44:10another signal that we literally don't live in any semblance of a democracy whatsoever. Right.
44:18>> Yeah. No, that's been true for a long time. It's the veneer of democracy. It's like the late Roman Empire or republic, the end of the republic, uh with the rise of Augustus and the imperial powers that take over. I mean, Trump functions in as a dictator. Um there's no the constitution doesn't work. I mean, Congress is supposed to declare war. Uh you know, there's just egregious violations. the emuments clause. I mean, it's endless. The the uh transformation of the Department of Justice into a Trump vengeance machine. Uh you know, the the uh the slush fund that he's set up, which is going to go to all these
45:06>> protofascists and fascists and the Proud Boys and everywhere else. Uh yeah. No, but I mean I I've long argued I mean you know that we're we've undergone as John Rston Saul wrote a corporate coup d'et on slow motion but that ended a long time ago and that's what's so frightening because uh people are sick of the system uh which has been gamed against them uh I mean the the tax cuts that uh and the reconfig the the you know permission of Silicon Valley type monopolies and all this stuff which is a Democratic project as well. Uh people are sick of it and that's I there's a core kind of cultlike following to
45:47Trump. I'm guessing 30 million. He got 77 million votes. I [clears throat] would say arrest a lot of I know because my family comes from Maine, so I have a very I am close to it. They're just sick of being gamed conned uh and fleeced by both parties including the Democratic party.
46:06>> Yeah, that's the thing. the Democrats actually could take control and the problem is you know you have Chuck Schumer in the Senate and you have Hakee Jeff who's a puppet of Zionists and yeah so there's so that's the you know the fact that Trump is you know you say he's acting as a dictator it's because he's been given the the ability to do so by the Democrats they could actually do something and they won't and that just goes to sh you know it's the uni party what what we've been talking about here uh for a long time What what you know what do you think I I say at this show and I'd like to hear what you say about
46:43it that the only thing that people can do now is you know cuz there's a chance if Trump doesn't end this war >> that gas prices could go to $10 a barrel >> I mean $10 a gallon that could happen and we we already 70% of farmers in America say they don't have the fertilizer or the money to grow the winter food and so things are going to get even even worse.
47:07And so what I say is that the only thing we can do is that the you know the truckers in Canada during co kind of set a template for it and is is that uh we we need workers like let's say the the railroad workers don't show up for work or the port workers don't show up for work or the the grocery store you know we need the truckers in America they we could we have the power to you we have to uh you know the oligarch's revenue stream and then you have to have a demand unlike like you know the no kings rallies or the women's march th those were just scops because the there's no such thing as a protest
47:42without a demand and so they had no demands and so that was just to keep funneling people's revolutionary energy back into this two-party system and so with demand that my demand would be that you have to have public financing of elections and you get all corporate money out of it and that would be the first step um I do you think that that's a possibility or do you see another way for Americans to take control of our government.
48:08>> No, that's the only way left. But you know, the oligarchs and the billionaire class done a pretty good job of eviscerating all organizations, in particular labor unions that act as resistance. That was a blowback from the 1970s where all of the rich people got frightened by the women's movement, the anti-war movement, and uh the civil rights movement and everything else. Um, but yes, you're exactly right. I mean, I just came from Mexico. just for my new book and uh uh the teachers are on strike and they said either you give us what we want. You you accept our demands or uh uh we will shut down FIFA.
48:47Well, that's that's how the game is played. And the Mexican government's kind of freaking out. I think they have six FIFA games or something down there.
48:54So, that's how the game is played. And uh that's the only hope left. I think at this point investing energy into the electoral system is which is just what they want you to do, an utter waste of time. Uh and I have supported third parties. I mean I was Ralph Nater's speech writer going all the way back to 2000. But it was never because Ralph thought he was going to win. Uh he just was trying to pull significant numbers 15 10 you know 20 million voters away from the Democratic party to create pressure on it. But the campaign which was waged by the Democrats to uh aviscerate or destroy Nater's campaign
49:33was really really fierce. I know I was there. Um and uh so uh yeah, you're right. Whether it's going to happen or not, I don't know, but that's the only thing that will save us at this point. You disrupt the uh business or the machinery of commerce and government. That's it. Um uh outside of that we're finished.
49:57So the you know just as you pointed out the you know the decay of America in fair uh America the farewell story you what that really you know what I took from that and what I've been talking about here on this show is that the reason why we're in such a decline and say China is on a rise is because in in the United States capital sits above the government and in China the government is above capital and there's no way to fix that is there?
50:32>> Yeah. I mean, so we are subservient to capital. Everything now within, you know, even our formerly democratic institutions serve the interests of capital. I mean, that's why they destroy they want to privatize everything including education. And I begin America the farewell tour in Scranton, Pennsylvania, which was city that would at the time was going into bankruptcy. And they had to sell off all their assets. That's right. Their sewer system, >> electrical light system, their parking system, everything. Uh well, these this capital the capital didn't build these systems. This was taxpayer dollars. But
51:09then they seize them and they jack up the price. This is why they want to privatize the post office. And if you want to look at what a privatized post office is like, look at the UK where, you know, if it's not if if capital doesn't if it's it's a remote rural area where capital isn't going to make money delivering mail, there's no delivery of mail. Uh so that that is what's happened. I mean, the the insane health care system that we have, I mean, I think it's a million people a year go bankrupt for medical bills and they had insurance. And this is Obama. I mean, you know, Obama threw us under the bus
51:50by blocking the private option and forcing us with to to, you know, buy into his defective corporate profit. It was a big bonanza for the pharmaceutical. Let me talk. Every time I hear the Democrats talk about how wonderful Obamacare is, uh they should talk to somebody, you know, who is struggling on low wages to pay for Obamacare. Uh I mean, it's better than no care, but it's not much better. Uh so, uh yeah, that's right. Everything is in the service of capital. These wars are in the service of capital. I think you've been very good at pointing this out. Ukraine uh you know they once we were defeated let's use the right word
52:35in Afghanistan and uh carried out a humiliating withdrawal uh the stock prices of Rathon and Hallebertton and North went down well you know so they needed Ukraine to make them go back up they need perpetual endless war in the Middle East with Iran to make them go up in all of these shills you know the Robert Kagan's actually Kagan came out against the in Iran, which was kind of remarkable.
53:02But I I dealt with Kagan back in the 80s in uh when I was covering the wars in Central America. He was Elliot Abrams deputy. These people have been wrong about everything. Uh but they are perpetuated all these think tanks, Heritage Foundation, and they're all funded by the war industry. Uh, and that's and then they pop up along with the retired generals and on on CNN and all these cable shows. Mm. MSNBC is no better. I don't know. Was it I don't watch it. Was it changed its name now to something?
53:35>> I think it's called the multiple sclerosis now.
53:37>> Is it Rachel Matto? There she goes.
53:40There's a journalist for you. Um, [laughter] >> trust me, Jimmy. Anybody who makes uh well I know a few road scholars.
53:49[laughter] Uh anybody who makes $10 million a year is not a journalist. I can tell you that. I haven't been one. Um >> so >> her her last contract was 35 million.
54:00>> 35 really.
54:01>> That was that was reward for her Russia gating that which got us into the that you know which uh primed the pump for Americans to be on board for a Ukraine war and not knowing anything about what happened and what led up to that war. So that's how they get people and she was a big key player in that because you got to get the quote unquote left on board for the war and they certainly were and >> yeah well Chsky I think you know we won't go into Gnome's relationship with Epstein [laughter] but I know it was kind of sad but anyway but I still Chsky's amazing so but he writes about that you know what's the role of quote
54:34unquote liberals like Rachel Maddau it's to essentially discredit people like you and me that's why they exist that's why the establishment rewards them so At the inception of the invasion of Iraq, I was on Terry Gross's show the last time, of course, her being an ardent Zionist uh with Michael Ignatv who I know and uh I argued against the invasion and then they had Michael but the way he did it was I protested the Vietnam War, you know, is all these kind of but we have to liberate the people of Iraq and that's that is the role of the quote unquote liberal class. It's why it's tolerated because it's used to destroy
55:15critics of empire. You can never critique the virtues of empire. What did you just tell me before the show that Steven Colbear >> [snorts] >> uh said to Tulsi Gabbard when she was opposing the Syrian war, he said, "I see America as a force for good in the world."
55:32>> There you go. Well, [laughter] okay. Uh that's that's why Steven Coar had a show. I mean, you know, he went after Trump, so now it's become all personalized. But that's why the liberal that liberal class is tolerated as long as they don't question the virtues.
55:47>> They can question the excesses, but not the virtues.
55:51Uh, and so, yeah, that's why Rachel Matto makes insane amounts of money because she is is a way to discredit people like us, but more importantly to herd people back into the embrace of the Democratic Party. And you have been, you know, really, really good on this for a really long time.
56:12>> Uh, yeah. It gets me lots of accolades from my friends in Hollywood. [laughter] >> I don't like Hollywood, Jimmy.
56:19>> Me neither, buddy.
56:19>> I like celebrities.
56:21>> I haven't been invited to a party for since 2016. So, >> there you go.
56:26>> That'll tell you something. All right, let's um so this just before we get off this uh this you know us losing the Iran war in such a humiliating fashion and and prop now Iran is a superpower in the in the region and it holds as you said holds all the cards >> and is going to be able just like Putin's going to be able to dictate how the Ukraine war ends they're going to be able to dictate how how this will this lead to something like a more sane world.
57:00>> It'll lead to a world where power will shift certainly towards China where I mean you already see it in Europe. I mean Europe is trying to cut the umbilical cord to the United States. I'm no fan of NATO, of course, but uh even big powers need allies and Trump doesn't have any. So Trump pleads with Europe or actually doesn't plead, he demands that Europe go in and and open the straight of Hormuz because of the fiasco that he created and they just ignore him. Uh so that isolation of the empire is very dangerous.
57:40Um and you are going to see global we already seen global alliances being made as I mentioned like for instance Pakistan's role within the Middle East uh and Pakistan's a nuclear power of course >> uh you're going to see uh a further isolation of uh the United States and the rise of new uh either alliances or centers of power but the key issue is the dollar. So there is heavy effort by the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians to break the hegemony of the dollar and that's key.
58:23If they do that, the American empire like a big balloon is uh you know deflated because we can't sell treasury bonds. Remember our we now have a national debt that exceeds income. What is by was 120% or something? Uh, and it's but it's funded on debt.
58:41Everything's funded on debt. But nobody's going to buy our Treasury bonds and that's an instant contraction if the dollar is no longer the world's reserves currency. I'm not an economist, so you know, I don't know all of the details, but I do know the effects because we saw it in the 1950s after the Suez crisis when uh the pound sterling was dropped as the world's reserve currency for the petro dollar. If that happens, the American empire is in deep deep trouble uh because it can't sustain itself uh because amassing that kind of debt or selling that kind of debt uh becomes impossible. So Alfred McCoy has written
59:22about this. He actually gives a year he's a great historian I think at the University of Wisconsin. I can't remember but he's good and he he actually thinks by 2030. I don't know. I think it's always dangerous to give dates. Um but there was heavy effort to for many many countries to decouple themselves from the tyranny of the dollar. I mean that's how they can impose uh economic sanctions on uh on uh ICC judges that rule against Galant, the former defense minister or BB or Franchesca Albani, the very courageous special reperator on human rights. Um, I mean, I was just in Italy with her. We were with the dock workers who uh
60:09refused to load weapons, carried out strikes and refused to load weapons on the ships to Israel. You can see a little video I made of it called Resistance 101. Um, and she can't she can't use credit cards. She can't even book a hotel room in her name. Now, a US court just overturned it. I don't know where we are right now, but that that the Trump administration can do that because of their the global dominance of the dollar. But once that's gone, and that's next clear, I don't know when, but when that comes, the American Empire, that that's the end. That's when you pull the plug on the American
60:45Empire.
60:48Um, I had one more question just slipped my mind. Um, oh, so getting back to the, you know, you your your book about the decay of America and it seems to me like in in California, it it they've spent $25 billion in just a few years to try to tackle homelessness and homelessness has only gotten worse.
61:14And now um they've spent $80 billion on ICE and ICE prisons. And what I tell people is that those ICE prisons and ICE, they're not there for immigrants.
61:26They might look like it. There's a show.
61:30Those are they're there for you uh for for when you wake up to what's actually happening and you protest the data centers >> or or if you do vandalism on the data centers, which is what uh Larry Frink is afraid that Americans are going to drone bomb the data centers. And so it's it's to create a surveillance state. And that's what those prisons they're not there for immigrant. want the immigrants here. They want them here because they want cheap labor and they want workers fighting even poorer people in a more desperate situation than them. So we don't come together and oppose the oligarch. It's it's a great it's so
62:01that's the and so and and and the the keeping the homelessness and you know what I say is like we've we've become China in a as a surveillance state with no rights to protest but uh we we just have more street crime and slower trains. And so do you do you that that is the game, right? That they want to keep uh this chaos, this homelessness, I mean, it's just un unbearable here in Los Angeles and and um and and street crime, what it's it's to make people beg for more authoritarian solutions so we'll accept the surveillance state and the prisons are there for people who try to rise up against it. Is am I is my
62:44assessment correct? What do you say?
62:46>> Yeah. So authoritarian regimes create conditions where in essence people beg for their own enslavement. That's it.
62:54And you're very right. Of course, look, people don't build concentration camps and tell you honestly who they're for.
63:00[laughter] And nowhere in the world in history has that ever happened. Uh they build them for those who are quote demonized as the enemy, the quote unquote enemy. uh you know whether that was in fascism, those were communists and Jews and uh but never forget that those concentration camps were filled with journalists and artists and writers and people from opposing political parties and everything else. So yeah, of course uh they and this gets back to the you know the book America the farewell tour which was based on the 191898 book by Emil Durkheim suicide French sociologist who asked what is it that drives both
63:40societies and individuals to carry out collective suicide and that's where you get the term but he he says it's the rupture of social bonds and what are those bonds those bonds are a place in the society a work where you're remunerated and can buy a house and live with dignity. Uh where the common good is accept. Well, all those bonds are broken. Then you are essentially cast out of society and uh and so societies that have ruptured those social bonds have to create through coercion ways of control and th that becomes militarized police and it becomes a vast carceral system. We have the largest uh prison
64:24system in the world. 25% of the world's prisoners were less than 5% of the world's population. And that's you're exactly right. And ICE is very a key element in that. I mean, they overplayed their hand in Minneapolis. Uh but they're still out there. We just had a here I live in Princeton. Poor van, you know, van load of workers were stopped at 6:00 in the morning because they were going to cut rich people's lawns and they're all gone. uh and their families live in terror and uh so uh and ICE is uh you know all authoritarian regimes build paramilitary rogue forces that are beyond the reach of the law and remember they're
65:05recruiting a lot of these right-wing militia types into ICE there's no training at virtually none >> um and that's what mo you go to India I've been in India and you have Modi he has his own goons for the RSS. Erdogan has his goons in Turkey. Go back, you know, what are the brown shirts, what are the black shirts in Italy. That's a fundamental point of a fascist state.
65:28And uh I think two developments. One, the massive expansion of ICE signals that coupled with this slush fund because that money is going to fund these very people. they that money is is exactly where and that's being directed at people within these groups to empower them.
65:48>> So, let's move on to uh we spoke about this earlier. Here's Trump uh saying he wants to uh he's going to he's going to bomb Oman now, a Gulf state. Let's listen.
66:00>> And Saudi Arabia combined. There's never been anything like that. We have we don't need oil. We don't need the straits. We don't need anything. But we have more oil now being produced by double to control it. Nobody's going to control it. It's international waters and Oman will behave just like everybody else. So we'll have to blow them up.
66:18They >> So I think what he means by blow them up uh you know like how we blew up Iran meaning that we're going to inflate their economy like a Macy's day parade float. I think that's what he means. Uh so here is what he's upset about. I'll show Trump threatens to blow up Oman despite centuries of US ties. According to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, uh countries can stake a claim up to 12 nautical miles for their territorial waters and the straight of Hormuz just 21 nautical miles wide. Um so if by the way, United States not a signatory to this to this. No, we can't, you know,
67:01claim to want to enforce this. It's something we're not a signatory to. But here, if you look at the map, so here's Oman is right here. And then, so there's Iran. And so if they enforce their uh 14 miles and Iran enfor So that effectively covers the whole straight right there.
67:19So that what they can do is that gives them the right to actually uh charge a toll that this isn't some kind of international waters. And um the US does not have permanent bases in Oman as it does in Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Saudi Arabia. However, the Navy has an agreement that ensures regular access to a port on Oman's southeast coast. For decades, Oman has maintained very good relations with the US and open diplomatic ties with Iran. Oman's unique position, it goes back centuries. Uh the Sultan of Oman dates back centuries and once controlled an empire stretching from the Indian Ocean to the east coast
67:59of Africa. This contrasts with the relative youth of its neighbors such as UAE Carter which were established as independent states in 1971. Oman has the oldest diplomatic and trade ties with the United States going back to 1790.
68:14So here uh so here is Trump threatening to what the longest diplomatic. So what do you make of this kind of bluster?
68:25>> Well, it's just one more alienation, you know, one more stupid threat uh that alienates a traditional if not an ally, somebody we've had, you know, working diplomatic relations with for a very long time. Uh, I mean, look, Trump has just done this to about everybody.
68:45Uh, you know, starting with Greenland and didn't he say he wanted to run for >> prime minister of Israel?
68:53>> Venezuela and Israel, too. He could be the prime minister of Israel, right?
68:58>> Yeah.
68:59>> Uh, and this is because Oman has now realized that America is this paper tiger. And so they're they're hooking up with Iran instead of us. That's what this is about.
69:11>> Yeah.
69:11>> And I I I can't believe that they all aren't doing that. I immediately I I been asking everyone who comes on the show, why don't the Gulf States uh get together and join with Russia and China?
69:23Because they're obviously the rising power and we're over with. And now Oman is doing that.
69:28>> Two reasons. One, you still have significant US military bases uh especially in places like Qatar. Uh secondly the dollar they are still hostage to the dollar. So >> uh you know and the financial system the the financial effects of this war has been quite harsh for uh many of these Gulf states. So they remain in a precarious position where they have to watch their steps. But I think in the long run, my guess is that you're right that that as they as once there's some kind of regional and financial stability there, you know, they learn their lesson, they're going to walk away.
70:15>> It's uh I mean, every time he makes these threats, it it it's, you know, it's the it's the boy who cries wolf. No, no one I don't the world doesn't even pay attention anymore. I mean, you know, it's it's how does he not I mean, even someone like Trump has to know that this that saying something like that and unless he is suffering from uh you know the onset of dementia, which a lot of people have claimed. Um I don't know if it's just aging, but it it's just it is kind of mind-boggling to me. Does it boggle your mind or are you you expected it? I don't think I think he's really pretty limited and clueless especially
70:57about international affairs. Remember one of the things which happened before Trump came into power is we eviscerated our diplomatic corps. So even when I was overseas, embassies were dominated by the CIA, the agency. The ambassadors often had no idea what they were doing and all these military attaches and this has been accelerated again under the Trump administration and the purging of the within the state department. Now empires need good diplomats for two reasons. One, you have to understand how not only your adversaries but your friends, your allies think. uh and if you know and I think that there was probably enough of
71:36a residue of intelligence officials and diplomats because of the the opposition to BB's pitch to to Trump to understand that uh Iran was not going to collapse.
71:50Iran, by the way, is also the Persian civilization is also very very uh old and and rooted and I've worked in Iran or the Iranian elite is highly educated. So um and that that essentially blinds you. Uh and I think uh so Trump is of course surrounded by sick offense. I mean his every cabinet meeting is just an embarrassment. Um uh and uh so you know people do not tell him what he needs to hear and when when they however tepidly attempt to tell him what he needs to hear he blows it off for his intuition. Uh so I I really think it's stupidity. I think uh I don't think Trump knows much. I think he knows
72:34that the war with Iran is not good for the world's financial system. I think he's figured that one out which is why he's backing away from it and why BB Netanyahu is apoplelectic about what's happening because uh if if this war is not remember US goals in Iran are not the same as Israeli goals.
72:56Israel seeks to turn Iran into a failed state to just bomb its infrastructure you know and destroy it the way they >> in Syria. Syria. Exactly. In Syria or the way they're doing in southern Lebanon, which is a kind of Gazaike uh reduction of everything below the Latani River in Lebanon to rubble.
73:15That's their goal. Uh America's goal is regime change. I mean, let's put in a puppet client state that will do our bidding. And you know, it kind of worked in Venezuela. Uh and that, you know, probably led Trump to think it would work in Iran, but Iran is not Venezuela.
73:31Iran's a huge country, 92 million people. It's the size of Western Europe.
73:35I mean, it's not Iraq even. Um, so, uh, I I don't think that I I think a lot of it and also how, you know, having lived overseas for two decades, when you say things like that, what do the people of Oman think? What do the people of Iran think when he says, "I'm going to obliterate your civilization or some, you know, some such." What how do you think that plays out? you know, and these are these may be, you know, how does it play out with people? I mean, the Iranian regime is very repressive and >> and a lot of people don't like them. Uh, but how do you, you know, I think we saw how it played out in that it actually
74:14gave the Iranian regime a kind of credibility it didn't have before the war. And you saw large numbers of Iranians, and I think it was spontaneous, surrounding their infrastructure, their bridges, everything else to protect them. uh you know so uh it's for for in terms of American interests and even in terms of the interests of uh you know for instance in the Iranian people themselves everything Trump does is completely counterproductive. I mean they want to they want to they want to uh install the shaw's son.
74:47I mean look uh the Savak was one of those the secret police network under the shore was which was trained by the Israelis and the CIA is was one of the most brutal in the Middle East. People have not forgotten.
75:01>> And then we also can't forget that Iranians are very aware that in the 8-year war with Iraq, the United States uh backed Saddam Hussein who was dropping chemical weapons uh the use of sarin and all sorts of other gas. uh we kept giving him money and support and the French kept giving him jets uh because they wanted to defeat the Iranians. So um this is you know that gets into that call it of cultural understanding historical understanding which of course Trump is completely oblivious to uh but you know once you're dealing with other countries and that's what a good diplomat has in terms of in
75:37including of course linguistic facility the empire has and it's gotten worse under Trump but it it was already happening before Trump the empire has uh essentially you know plucked out its eyes and it's rendered itself deaf dumb come in blind. And we didn't talk about Blinkin, but I mean, look, Blinken was almost as perfidious as Rubio as a Secretary of State.
76:00>> Oh, yeah.
76:01>> So, um, do you have >> They're all If you ever want to find them, Jimmy, they're all at the Kennedy School at Harvard training the new generation.
76:11>> Where's Petraeus? He's teaching. Is it at the City College? Where is he?
76:15Uh I think Petraeus just sitting on a lot a bunch of boards getting rich and then you know going on TV and >> Okay.
76:22>> Uh I I didn't I don't know if he's still teaching there. I think he just taught one course. I think he was just trying to clean up his image.
76:29>> Okay.
76:29>> Uh you know for his affair his his affair.
76:33>> That's right.
76:34>> Remember?
76:35>> Yeah. I remember. Yeah. And he g he gave the top secret info to his uh his lover.
76:40>> Yeah.
76:41>> So um do you do you have to go? Do you have time to talk? No, I don't have to.
76:45Okay. So, no. No. Naftali Bennett uh we showed on this show. He >> gave a speech where he said that they have to turn their Israel has to turn their attention towards Turkey. And now, uh here's a new video of they you know that Israeli spy uh Jonathan Pard who >> Trump released. Um here's what he said that then what what's up next for Israel. Listen to this. I'm not so sure that um we will have as easy a time with the Turks as we've had with the U Iranians. I I've been following Turkish um military doctrine and >> the strongest army in the Middle East.
77:28>> The storm is coming.
77:30>> Yes, of course.
77:31>> I'm I >> and they're of NATO >> and even worse, they're a member of NATO. So, I look at Iran as a problem.
77:38We absolutely have to finish and I'll explain what I mean by that. Gaza, same thing. And the uh why why am I fixated on this now? Because we have to be prepared for the next war which will be probably against Turkey and Egypt.
77:59>> Right. So let me just Jimmy before you start explain who Jonathan Pard was. He gave the Israelis all of the intelligence information on our assets, including human assets in the Soviet Union.
78:17And the Israelis traded that information for the release of Jews, but they shut down the US intelligence in the he shut down the US intelligence in the Soviet Union. Um, and did tremendous damage to the American ability to understand what was happening. Uh, and that is why he wasn't released for so long.
78:46uh and uh and so you know I just want to be clear that he wasn't he he wasn't he wasn't in he was spying for Israel but it was it was an effort u by him and by Israel to do tremendous damage to the intelligence networks of the United States.
79:10>> Yeah. And he did it and >> and he did it.
79:13>> U >> and he's he's a nut by the way. Oh, of course there well they the anyone in power now is over in Israel. Uh but what what he's talking about which I think more people are starting to realize what he's talking about is the well if you see this is what's on the armband of the IDF soldiers. Can you take uh there you go. So you see this and then there's this in Hebrew next to it. And so this is the map of what they call the greater Israel. Here I'll just play this is very quick. to explain what this is >> that was seen on the uniform of an Israeli soldier. Look closely. What do you see? You see Palestine, Saudi
79:53Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt, and a small part of Turkey. And next to it is written the promised land. What does this mean? Are Israel only fighting a defensive war? Or do they have a hidden agenda to continue to expand their land by taking over the countries around them? So this is why Israel is in perpetual war and why they allowed October 7th to happen. In fact, they funded it, made sure it happened, and told their army military to stand down so it could happen so they could use that as a pretext just like we use 9/11 as a pretext to go in and do all those other wars for Israel, Iraq and Libya
80:35and Sy, all that stuff. And so uh what this is the greater Israel project, right? So that's why they're in Lebanon.
80:43That's why they're talking about going into Turkey, which is he says a NATO member. Now you realize Trump wants to pull us out of NATO. Maybe that's one of the reasons why because Israel doesn't want us to have to abide by article 5, which says that we have to defend anybody in NATO who's attacked. So uh this is so more people are becoming aware of what this actually is. This is the Greater Israel Project. Israel is and and the United States are the world's terrorists by far. It's not Iran, it's not ISIS or al-Qaeda, which we just installed the chief head chopper of al-Qaeda as the head of Syria and
81:21he's welcomed at the White House and on Downing Street, right? So even though we still have Guantanamo, it's this guy. So this this so that's what people and people are now waking up to this thing called the Greater Israel Project, which I didn't know about until October 7th.
81:36And now I know everything about it. And I didn't know about the knock, but I didn't know anything. But like most people now I now I do because of this and it's horribly backfired. And so uh do you think that we can uh stop this greater Israel? I mean they're they're they're a country of what 9 million uh even less Jews. I mean they're such a tiny country with such a small population. They can't do any of this without the United States military and money. Um, take take it wherever you want, Chris.
82:08>> Yeah. I mean, as soon as we pull the plug on Israel, then, you know, they're in serious trouble. Yeah. The Greater Israel Project, which you know, it's not just physically occupying southern Lebanon, which they've tried before. Uh, it's not just I mean, you know, Netanyahu just announced he's going to take 70% of Gaza. most poor Gazins, Palestinians in Gaza are now trapped in these feted uh you know uh living under tents and the ruins etc. Uh and and actually somebody in the audience when he announced this said, "Well, you should take all of it." And he said, "Well, we're just going to start with
82:4470%." Um the way that they project power throughout the region is to destroy the states around them. That is why Israel pushed so heavily for the war in Iraq uh and succeeded in getting the Americans to pound Iraq. I worked in Iraq under Saddam Hussein who was awful.
83:04>> But uh he the infrastructure was modern uh highly educated uh of course a wealthy state the education system was very good etc. Um and Israel had to destroy it and they did that by that now Iraq is kind of divided especially you know with a Kurdish zone in the north. So uh they have to destroy these states but they don't have the power to do it for the reasons you pointed out. So they have to get the United States to do it. Uh which they did in Iraq. uh they did in in you know it's why uh as soon as Assad was overthrown Israeli jets were in there bombing everything that potentially could sustain the new state militarily.
83:46Uh and that's what they want to do in Iran. They want to destroy they they can't occupy Iran but they can destroy Iran through saturation bombing continuing. It's why they want to bomb power stations, desalination plants, oil facilities, anything that can sustain the country because it's it's it's the destruction of those countries by turning that's what they did in Libya by turning these countries into failed states and Libya is just chaos incorporated. Um then de facto uh you have Israeli hegemony and uh the projection of military power which goes beyond the actual areas in Lebanon in uh Gaza. We haven't even spoken about the
84:35West Bank that there's a real reign of terror in the West Bank. They would like to push the Palestinians in the West Bank into Jordan. They would like to push what's the Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt. But both Egypt and Jordan have moved their militaries up to the border to try and prevent it. Um, so yes, it greater Israel is it's always been on the agenda, but that's how it works. It works by uh occupying land around it and making sure neighboring states or states like Iran that pose a potential threat are destroyed or Iraq.
85:11Um, but I think after the war in Iran, uh, there it's not only not worked, but it's going to, uh, be very counterproductive to Israel's interests.
85:24>> Yeah. [clears throat] But they all think it's full speed ahead with the greater Israel pro just as Jonathan Pard, Napali Bennett has said that who people say will be the next prime minister possibly. Um uh it's they they seem to not think that there's any stopping them. But maybe there isn't because the American politicians are so you know uh bought by the Israelis are so subservient to them to the Zionist project. Uh so I I I don't I again the I hope but the I think the thing is the American people it's only Republicans over 50 years old.
86:05the same people who voted for uh Thomas Massiey's opponent there. Those are the only people who still are on the side of uh the Zionists in this country. So, everybody has woken up. I I hope hopefully it will end. I I have I have one last thing I'd like to talk to you about. Um Jeffrey Saxs wrote an open letter to uh the Chancellor Merz of Germany because he's fearing well he's fearing [clears throat] a war of Europe.
86:33you I I don't understand what's going on in Europe. It's that no again just like in America the people don't want this.
86:40Uh but the leaders they all want a war uh to the point where they're you know they're they're doing austerity and ramping up their war machine so they can get ready for war. Well, here's what he says. He says, "The past days have brought a dangerous acceleration that should focus every European's mind. Both capital and now under sustain both capitals, [clears throat] meaning Kiev and Moscow are under sustained attacks. Ukrainian long range drones have struck deep into Moscow, including civilian sites. Russian missiles and drone strikes against Kiev have greatly intensified. Ukrainian drones have crossed into the airspace of
87:20the Baltic states, raising the immediate prospect of an incident that could pull Europe directly into war. A horrific Ukrainian strike on a boy school in Lugansk has further eroded what little remains of restraint. And on May 25th, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavough, acting on instructions from President Putin, formally notified the United States Secretary of State that the Russian armed forces are now launching systematic and sustained strikes on facilities and decision-making centers in Kiev and the Russian Foreign Ministry has advised that the United States and other countries ensure the evacuation of
88:01their diplomatic personnel and other citizens from the capital of Ukraine.
88:06The message is the prologue to a major escalation. And so here's just he he was asked why he wrote this letter and here's his response.
88:16>> Well, I published it because Europe is in a a very very distorted and dangerous state of mind gearing up for war with Russia. Uh it's a kind of fervent Russia hatred that is completely irrational and that is completely counter to the historical truths Germany is >> okay so we won't go there but so he's he's saying we're on the precipice of Europe uh having an all-out war with Russia. Uh do you do you agree with that and what would be the ramifications of that?
88:58Well, the ramifications of course would be catastrophic.
89:02Uh remember, you know, all the war industry after the break up of the Soviet Union, I think Coen Powell made a statement, you know, I can't build a military based on the threat from Cuba and jihadists. So, they needed a new enemy. It became Russia. And that's I was there, by the way, Jimmy. I was I covered the revolutions in Eastern Europe and I covered the unification of Germany. And there were very clear promises made to Gorbachev not to extend NATO beyond the borders of a unified Germany. I was in the room when Hans Dietri Genture made those promises and James Baker made that promise.
89:41Well then of course the arms industry I was a few years ago was in Poland and there's a billboards from Rathon all over the place. Well, they, you know, they knew that if they could uh manufacture an enemy in Russia, then all of the Eastern block countries would have to reconfigure their military equipment to be NATO compatible. That was billions and billions in profits.
90:07And then you had this myth of the uniolar world. We're the we're the only ones. I'm talking about the American empire. We can do whatever we want.
90:15Russia's a failed state. It doesn't matter. And so they did expand NATO which was opposed by Gorbachov, opposed by Yelson and of course opposed by Putin. And there is Saxs references this but there is historical drama uh in that Russia was invaded three times through Ukraine. Napoleon the first world war and the Vermont in the second world war.
90:38And uh there's a actually through Wikileaks uh Burns who was became the CIA director but before was the ambassador to Moscow that that when we can read that memo in the Wikileaks he said it doesn't matter the political persuasion of anyone within Russia. Uh turning Ukraine into uh a NATO ally is absolutely unacceptable within Russian society. But again, we didn't we didn't read with the hubris. Uh and then of course the financial incentives. We baited Putin into the Ukraine. I'm not defending what Putin did, but I'm telling you that he was baited and provoked. And there were numerous messages out of Moscow to stop
91:24and we didn't. And uh so the war industry create turn, you know, Gorbachov wanted to join NATO.
91:32>> Yes. So did Putin.
91:33>> And so did Putin. That's right. at the that's right. I mean that's the tragic and after 911 they wanted to offer all sorts of help because they've had all sorts of uh you know terrorist attacks by chin separatists etc. So that's the tragedy but we couldn't allow that. We had to in order to uh continue this uh massive infusion of money into the war industry you had to create an enemy. And so we did uh and uh and that's I think that's what they're doing. That's what you're seeing.
92:06>> And uh so the Europeans are now just as owned by the war machine as the United States politicians.
92:16>> Well, the I would say the Germans in particular because you know they've really ramped up their military. German militarism is not a new phenomena.
92:25[laughter] Uh and if you uh I mean we didn't even get into the repression against uh people who speak up for Palestine, >> right?
92:35>> When you have the grandchildren of Nazis running around arresting American Jews who deni I mean German Jews who denounce the genocide. I mean that's where we are. And and Germany w would like to become again a military powerhouse within Europe. uh which is not a good idea and this is a really good way to do it. Uh and that's what we're seeing. So there's there's been uh a a remilitarization of German society in the last few years >> and >> and Russia Russia becomes the mechanism that by which it's justified >> and this is why Germany didn't put up a bigger stink uh when the United States blew up Nordstream pipeline be even
93:21though it did serious damage to their economy and they had to pay much higher rates for energy was because they could they wanted to keep Russia as the bad guy, not the United States. So they >> Yeah. You can't you can't build uh you know or divert state resources to the military unless there you can manufacture a threat.
93:43>> And that's all this is, right? And and >> it's just again, I just go back to the mindless, empty-headed people that I'm surrounded by in Hollywood who think they're the on their side of God and morality because they put a Ukraine flag in their profile and they have no idea what they're actually doing is is participating in their own demise.
94:03>> Yeah.
94:04>> And uh >> they don't Jimmy look, they don't even know who they are. celebrities, you know, having been around a few of them, they that dividing line between their fictional persona and their their self erodess. That's what I found. I mean, I don't like them. I live on the East Co. I mean, not that Princeton's a great place, but at least I don't have to deal with those types. Have to deal with academics. It might be worse.
94:29[laughter] >> Uh, well, I guess fingers crossed. Uh maybe hopefully we won't have a European war with Russia. Hopefully uh Trump will sign this uh ceasefire and we'll come to hopefully all this fingers crossed. I don't know. We'll see. Uh Chris Hedges, I really appreciate you uh taking time.
94:49I look forward to your next book.
94:51Everybody check out his Substack uh which we referenced at the beginning of this. Uh thanks again very much for coming on. It's always good to see you.
95:00>> Yeah, great to see you, Jimmy. Keep up the great work. Thanks.
95:02>> Right back at you. All right, we're going to take a break and we'll be right back with Garland Nixon.
95:14[music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> me Andrew. Okay.
96:41Wow, that was uh that was quite a uh interview. I really miss talking with Chris Hedges. Um anyway, we're going to move on. We have a lot more coming up on the show. Uh turns out AI is not working out for the big corporations. It turns out it costs more than to have a real person do the work. That's this is true.
97:00Um uh so that's coming up. Uh we've got uh a lot more with our good friend Garland Nixon will be here. Uh so see us over at Rumble. We're going to jump to Rumble right now and we'll see you over there.
97:23[music]
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