0:01were there. It was really, really fun.
0:03>> Now, what was it like when you're 15, 16? Because now, like you can look back on it as an adult, having way more understanding of the world.
0:11Was it a would you describe it as somewhat of a normal experience dealing with the modeling agencies? Or were was there anything that now you're like, "Well, that's kind of weird that they did it this way or that way."
0:21>> Are you kidding me? Like, everything is kind of weird now when I look back on it.
0:25>> Yeah. Joe worked in it as well. He he knows what you're talking about. Yeah.
0:29Yeah, I mean it was just accepted the way that people were back then. And you have to understand the mauling industry back then was you had to be a certain height and weight and look. You had to be kind of special in a way. Um it's [snorts] just different now. Now it's like all different types and anyone can model. But like back then it was very serious. So you had to take it, you know, it was a career and you had to travel around the world. I went to Greece. I went to Cape Town and like build your book for three or four months, you know. So, um, but yeah, in the States, you definitely noticed that
1:00there were older agents that would take you to parties and you would be around, you know, younger girls, older men. That was so normal. Um, you know, maybe they would give you drugs and alcohol.
1:11>> It was very normal.
1:12>> Even at 15, 16.
1:13>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can get in the clubs.
1:17>> Well, that's crazy.
1:19>> It was just It was just the way it was, you know. Um, so when I finally met Epstein, it was like, oh, this is this is kind of how it is. I mean the women agents would do the same thing. Would take you to these dinner parties with old men all the time like don't you have anybody our like our >> age 15 16 is crazy.
1:34>> Well the models back then started around 13 14 15 >> we all started really young where nowadays they don't start you till maybe 17 18 1920. It's older now >> still. Like >> it's weird no matter what. But like >> the blatancy I don't think that's a word, but you know what I mean of having a 14, 15year-old at dinner with with old rich dudes or whatever cuz they're the new model and then you wonder how something like Epstein happens like >> Yeah, exactly. It was just the time.
2:05>> Did your parents know that was happening?
2:07>> Um, no, probably not. They never asked me.
2:12>> And they never asked you about that.
2:14>> No, I think everyone, all the parents, I mean, didn't know. I mean, I know of many parents that would line up their girls to meet with John Casablanca at Elite Models, and when they go into the room, they were sexually assaulted before they came out, you know, to go back with their parents. John Casablanca, who was tall and good-looking and charming, and everybody loved him.
2:34>> Yeah. Jeal Marie, Jeanlu Brunell, you know, all these these big agents who, >> you know, were they were assaulting a lot of girls. I mean, this is a known fact. So, >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
2:45>> Yeah.
2:46>> And it it it's amazing that >> it took until like Harvey Weinstein in 2017 for people to realize, oh, there's a casting couch [sighs] in all these industry. Like, it just >> Yeah. Unfortunately, when you have that power, someone like Harvey, it's like, oh, you really want this movie role?
3:02Show me how bad you want it. Right. like this whole thing is just that's why I got out of the acting world. I just I couldn't even handle it how bad it was.
3:10>> When did you get into that?
3:11>> Well, I was always like a young actress >> doing acting classes since I was like, you know, 19 or so.
3:18>> Okay.
3:18>> My I mean my first film was with Oliver Stone. I booked a role.
3:22>> No kidding.
3:23>> 98 99 right out of high school. I I started auditioning in Miami any given Sunday.
3:29>> Oh, you were in Any Given Sunday?
3:30>> Yeah. I was opposite Jamie Fox.
3:32>> No [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah.
3:34>> It's a great movie.
3:35>> Yeah, it was a great movie. Really great cast.
3:37>> Six inches in front of your face.
3:40[laughter] Don't do that in a long time.
3:42>> Wow. Yeah, you're good. Um, and [laughter] then >> I was like, that would suck. Don't ever do that.
3:47>> It was a good movie, but it was a great cast, you know, but I started realizing right off the bat, oh shoot, this is how it works, >> you know.
3:54>> Yeah. I mean, Jeffrey would send send us on auditions with big big movie directors.
3:59>> Yeah. And we're seeing that and we're seeing even darker stuff than that in emails just sending girls to gynecologists, skin care people. Oh, she doesn't get out of high school till 400 p.m. or something.
4:12>> But that So do you looking back on it when you were 15 16? So when you come to New York for the first time, how long it sounds like you were alone when you went there. You stay there alone.
4:22>> Mhm.
4:22>> At 15 16.
4:24>> So they put you up at a hotel.
4:25>> Yeah.
4:25>> You have your own room.
4:26>> Mhm. How long what was the longest time you were there by yourself?
4:30>> Well, that time I was just there for a week. So, you should go for a week or two at a time. Yeah, >> that's like a week or two. I know.
4:35>> In New York City without your parents and everything.
4:38>> Mhm.
4:39>> Do you looking back on it?
4:42>> Were there things that happened there, too?
4:44>> Well, that's normal for to bring a 16-year-old, 15, 16, 17 year old Yeah.
4:48to New York City by yourself. They put you in a mall apartment and then you go out with the promoters and you go to the nightclubs and you get the VIP room and you're around all these celebrities.
4:58That's that was pretty normal.
5:01>> Um yeah, I mean you were there hanging out with Leo next to you and all sorts of celebrities and things since we were really young.
5:09>> Did you ever say I'm 15? I mean, I don't think anybody really cared like that we were that girls were underage or I don't think people really cared. I think it was just kind of accepted. Yeah.
5:22[clears throat] >> Yeah.
5:25>> That's hard to pro like that's really hard for me to process. I mean I I mean I know this stuff happens.
5:30>> Yeah.
5:31>> But the normaly with which you're talking about, oh yeah, they all did it 13, 14, 15. Yeah. You know, you come for a week, you stay without your parents. They take you to clubs and promoted. It's like, >> yeah, but you're supposed to be protected. Like, who's protecting you, >> right?
5:46>> You know what I mean? And so, you feel like you're protected. I'm in a mall apartment. Okay. Okay. I go out to these clubs. They want you to socialize. Your agent is usually with you.
5:54>> You know what I mean? I mean, agents would give you some coke or something in the bathroom. Like, agents would give you during that time, not now, but during that time, you know, it was it was definitely things were more accepted. Um, then you would go to your agency and you would get your castings for the day and you'd run around to castings literally to hotel rooms where there's photographers. Like you would go to hotels and meet with photographers at hotels. It was the strangest thing. Um, and then they would book you on jobs where you're flying to Hawaii or the Caribbean, you know, for a few days
6:24shooting with these people, you know, and I mean there's a lot of women there and most of the time nothing really happened, but every now and then you were with a photographer who wouldn't leave you alone, you know, so there was a lot of these things going on.
6:36>> Did you ever feel pressured to have to hook up with somebody?
6:42>> I mean, I guess I would say yes. I mean, I think I felt pressured quite a few times. Um, yeah, I would say yeah, definitely yes.
6:52I think any model would say yes. And on many occasions, it's probably happened to most models and actresses. Um, and then you would go back to your agency and tell them, you know, so and so, this French photographer wouldn't keep his hands off me. He was touching my nipples or like, you know, you know, putting his hand by my private like things. just, you know, little things like that, you know, little Well, I mean, I would say something like that to an agent and they were just like, "Oh, it's just how he is, you know, things like that, you know." So, things were just kind of accepted.
7:21>> Yeah. And then when I became a Ford model, I mean, Katie Ford used to take us to these parties and these charity events where you're all these girls at a table and then all the rich older men would sit next to you and you'd have to have conversation with them, you know, she would tell you how to like, yeah, use your knife. I already knew how to do this, but like use your knife and fork, you know, elbows on the table. Like they would want you to be like a little lady, you know, while you're just having conversation with like a 60-year-old man. It's like I don't know if they ever stopped to think that that's probably not what
7:53young girls really want to do is to hang out with these old guys.
7:57>> But you're useful to them to do that.
7:59That's how they look at it.
8:01>> One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit
8:29that subscribe button if you haven't already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help. And you can join my newsletter via the link in the description.
8:36>> Yeah, that's how because they're they're friends. They're just, you know, >> you're just like pawns for them. I mean, you don't really matter to them. Yeah, there's a couple things clocking for me.
8:45Number one, what you're describing right here, I'll be conservative and say it's not much different from some form of sex trafficking. And if I want to be really just off the cuff with this, it sounds like sex trafficking to me. I'll let people in the comments decide that on their own, I guess. But the second thing is the years where this is happening to you psychologically, 15, 16, 17, 18, >> you're getting desensitized to all of it. It's be it is being ingrained in you as a young girl >> that this is normal. This is how things work. Oh, you want to have this career and whatever. You have talent. Lisa,
9:22you'll be great at this, but you got to do these things.
9:25>> That's what I look everyone else is doing it, too.
9:27>> Mhm. Yeah. I guess in a way >> it's [clears throat] kind of like that.
9:32I mean, it's No one really says it like that, >> but I think you kind of have to play along a little bit. You learn pretty pretty quickly when you speak out or you that nobody really cares or um or you should be quiet. Yeah.
9:45>> Did your did your parents ask you about anything that ever happened when you were away from them for a week at a time in New York? Ever?
9:53>> Um no. Um after I after I left home, I was by myself living in countries for three to four or five months by myself in countries. I lived in Greece by myself for 3 months. I lived in South Africa for 6 months by myself. So, I was traveling and it was pretty normal um up until maybe like 5 or 10 years ago to travel at a teenager to these countries by yourself. I mean, I saw crazy [ __ ] happening like in Greece and other places, you know.
10:25Yeah. Just weird weird weird stuff. And usually involved like drugs or alcohol or, you know, photographers or, you know, clients or crew, you know, just expecting girls to do certain things.
10:37Um, I mean, you would push back as much as you can, but uh, I think you you could find pretty quickly that the more you push back on things, the more you're not really accepted or your career doesn't advance.
10:50>> So, I think it's the reason why so many people leave the modeling business and especially the acting business.
10:55>> Yeah.
10:55>> Yeah.
10:56>> Yeah. And it's and it does seem you see it all the time and and like you were saying earlier, it's you know, we're talking about abuse of girls and boys and everything.
11:07Don't get me started on the boys. It's pretty bad >> within Hollywood that you've seen >> in the modeling business.
11:14>> In the modeling business. I'm >> sure.
11:15>> I've heard a lot about that, too.
11:17>> Yeah. Abbercrombie Boys. Yeah.
11:19>> Mhm.
11:21And they got to you put someone who's got like a dream to be able to get to this point or do this thing and then they're young and they get sent somewhere far away to do it and then it's like, well, you just got to do this thing and you'll get it.
11:35and their mind is groomed to be like, "Well, I guess I just got to >> Yeah, it's a really sad business in that way." You know, I knew a lot of male models who went for like big big castings with huge photographers and were assaulted, you know, and like if you didn't do something, then you don't get the job. And I knew I knew boys that walked away from it was like, "F you.
11:58I'm not doing that." And would walk away and just give up on their careers, you And then I knew some who, you know, had a lot of shame around, you know, um, things that they did or didn't say no to or >> Yeah. Yeah. That's why that's why I've always told you when I speak out, it's always always for the men, too. It's not just for women, >> right?
12:18>> Yeah. [snorts] >> What was now? you wanted to become a model. So, you put yourself in a position to do it, but then once you were in it, you're around all these people from the business, the masters of the universe, if you will.
12:31>> What was modeling scouting like back then? That's always a term like you said you did it as well. We can get to that, but like whenever I hear that, I'm like, >> do you just like walk on the street and watch people pass by and go, "Ah, she's good-looking. Ah, he's good-look. Let's talk to him." Like, is that was that what it was back then?
12:47>> I mean, back then, not really. you I mean you do some street scouting obviously if you see someone who has potential >> you go up to them and you know you hand them your card and you always tell them for their mother or father to contact you >> and then you say you know um then they come into the agency with a mother or father that's how I've always operated I mean obviously there's scouts out there who don't operate like that um I mean for me I loved it I really loved it I would travel to all these countries and I would actually meet with agencies so in each country of the world. Let's say Sa Paulo, um Warsaw, you know, I went to
13:24Bratislava, like like Croatia, I mean, China. No, no matter what country, too.
13:29Yeah. No matter what country you go to, you there's many agencies within those countries. And so, you go as a scout, you meet with that agency, and one by one, the models come in. And I'm a woman and and a mom now, but I think I was a mom then when I was a scout. Yeah. So when I would sit when I would sit there with the models, you'd evaluate them, you take their photos and videos and then you send it to the New York agency and whoever they like, you know, they organize the visas and they come work in the US. That's how it works. Um, now how these men were doing it was a little different. They would have a casting
14:03probably at the hotel, you know, and you know, if you want a model, maybe the ones that probably didn't have potential, maybe they would do certain things. So there was there was this underground of abuse and assaults that were happening just right at that level even before they even got to New York >> you know and then they were sending them to the people in New York like MC Square Jean Luke Bernell's agency you know that was Epste was funding that agency you know and bringing them there and poor things you know having to do things like live in the mall apartments or have to go see Epste or others and they were
14:36getting assaulted left and right you know I mean I mean This is the higher level of modeling. I mean, even like our biggest agencies um in New York, the even the women that own these agencies and that were the director of these agencies, in the files, there's emails of them sending their girls to Epstein.
14:55I mean, in Paris, there was an agency that just came out too that was also saying, "Oh, I got a nice 16-year-old Brazilian. Can I send her over to you?"
15:03You know, and sending him over to Jeffrey. Why are these women sending young girls to Epstein?
15:11Do they not know why? Like why why would this older man want to see these girls? Like do they not even think about it? Or is it their relationship with them too important or the money that they he gives their agencies or whatever it is that clout? I don't know. Why is it so important that these older women are sending young women and teenagers to Epstein? They don't do they even know that Epstein is now taking these girls, putting them in his orbit, and then trafficking them out.
15:41>> I the term that keeps coming to mind as I read these files and reading the same things that you're describing right now, of which there are that I know of, hundreds of examples like this, which means there's probably thousands.
15:54I just think the term vampire it's like this >> the people who do these types of things to young girls, young boys, you name or or just take advantage of anyone sexually regardless of age period.
16:09There's a there's a shame that with their power they put into that act that is symbolically to me the same thing as vampires biting someone's neck in any you know fictional fantasy story you've read and the idea is like it's the ultimate >> control >> control and I own piece of your soul.
16:39>> Yeah. Exactly.
16:40>> Like I own you. Yeah.
16:43>> So when they send what did you say example was a 16-y old I have a 16-year-old Brazilian for you. No name, just the age and the ethnicity.
16:53Go take a piece of her soul. Then she'll do whatever we want.
16:56>> That's how it reads to me.
17:00>> Yeah. But isn't it funny that you have these Epstein files and it's like you're expecting to see, you know, these men who are abusing young women and and teenagers, let's say. We've kind of all known about that for a long time now.
17:14I just find it really kind of peculiar that now we're seeing emails between men of talking about like a seven-year-old.
17:23Like, why would you not think just from seeing emails that have to do with a child, why would you not investigate that? Would that not tell you that there's something really, really, really wrong in the minds of some of these men?
17:38>> Well, look, you're >> seven. Do you know what a seven-year-old looks like?
17:42>> You're talking about the most obvious example in the world, but go all the way to the top of the pyramid here. How about the fact that the man who owns the company that among his holding companies has the biggest female lingerie brand in the world who gave all the wealth that we know of I I shouldn't say all a large portion of the wealth that we know of personally to Jeffrey Epstein and gave him power of attorney and shared businesses and trusts with him that sold houses to Howard Lutnik of the world by the way you know [ __ ] you Howard You know, how about the fact that that guy was still covered up in these documents
18:26until Roana came out and said his name.
18:30He was still never arrested. He was never interviewed to this day. They're about to go depose him at his mansion, by the way, on his turf and some congressmen in Ohio. But he was never even questioned by the DOJ.
18:44And yet in the documents themselves was listed back when Jeffrey was arrested >> as a co-conspirator.
18:53>> So you talk about of course the obvious examples. Oh, they're talking about a seven-year-old right here. Yeah, I think we should investigate that.
18:59>> But the dude at the top of it with him or that we know of as the top gets to live in America on with all his billions of dollars, run all his companies for free, no problem, and doesn't even get questioned. Meaning what the point I'm getting at Lisa is it is much deeper than just all the horrible individual examples we see. It's like if you go to dig a hole and your goal is to dig a 30ft hole. Well, if you don't dig the first foot, you're never going to go to 30 feet. We're talking about things where we should be going to 30 feet.
19:36They haven't gone to the first foot.
19:39>> Oh, I agree.
19:42You dig really really deep. Yeah.
19:45>> But you cynically seem to share my opinion that someone like that probably won't end up in prison.
19:52>> Yeah. Too much money.
19:56>> Is that all it is?
19:57>> Well, how do you know that they haven't called him in and said showed him all the unredactive files? I mean like this is what we got on you and it's pretty pretty depraved, you know, and maybe he just paid him off.
20:12I mean, there's got to be some type of leverage here. I don't I just don't believe for a second that you have that much information on an individual and they haven't tried to do something.
20:23>> I agree with you, but not on the method >> as much money. Can we look up less Wexner's net worth def?
20:29>> So, not on the money, but maybe some other leverage. What What do you think it is?
20:33>> Yeah. To make the point, >> I always think it's about money, but what do you think it's about?
20:36>> I mean, there's money in all this to be clear. I shouldn't. That's unfair of me to dismiss that. I'm not trying to do that. But what's he worth? Ballpark.
20:44>> 9.1.
20:45>> 9.1 billion. All due respect to his 9.1 billion. That's a [ __ ] stain ashtray money. When you're talking about the United States government, which in debt alone has what is it that I don't know, 38 trillion, whatever it is.
20:59Guys like that, guys like Jeffrey Epstein who gets a sweetheart deal like he did in 2008 after you said it was known he abused 43 women on not women, girls, underage 12, 13, 14 year old girls on record and gets basically nothing for it.
21:15>> Their leverage goes well beyond money.
21:17>> Yeah, >> it's information. It's dirt and it's on people that like >> there there are he had >> I don't know if you ever had a chance to like look and see this in in the years that you were around him but cuz I mean the whole point was it was hidden but he would have 80 cameras in one room that if like this thing right here if this were sitting on his table it would have like a hidden camera in it.
21:43>> I know.
21:45I knew he had cameras everywhere >> and you could see some of them.
21:49>> No, no, >> but you knew it.
21:51>> No, I never saw them. I um he had showed me the room once with all with all the um the monitors >> in New York.
22:00>> Mhm.
22:02>> What was the context of you see in that room? Was he like, I want I just want to show you something?
22:06>> Well, that was the thing about Epstein.
22:07He was very much like very cheeky about things. He would he he liked to show these things off.
22:12>> Yeah. He'd like to let you know on his famous friends, billionaire's friends, little secrets about them. He would tell you little things. He would laugh about things.
22:22[snorts] Yeah. He always had this little this little grin on his face. I think this was after he he I don't know if he to say the word trusted me, but um these were the conversations I would have with him. I mean, because I was very cur I've always been really curious about things, so I would always ask.
22:37>> Um but yeah, no, he had showed it to me once, so I knew I knew. But I don't >> I don't think he hid that from a lot of people. Um except for maybe the powerful men that were coming over.
22:49>> Um >> like how how big is this room that you're talking about?
22:54>> A little smaller than this room.
22:56>> All right. This is a big room. This is 18 by 14 and a half. So maybe like a 15 by 12 kind of deal.
23:04>> I don't know. Something like that.
23:05>> Just a room. Yeah. Where you someone who sits at these desks around it and then all these screens. So, someone's in there sitting at the desk watching. And would you see like are we talking like 60 screens?
23:19>> Gosh, I don't know how many.
23:20>> I'm sorry. That's really specific.
23:23>> 30 or less.
23:24>> Okay.
23:26[sighs] >> Half of that or less. Yeah.
23:28>> And then there's all kinds of mobile cameras and stuff that he has that you don't see in there.
23:32>> Oh, this is the best technology. So people aren't coming in thinking >> you're coming over for business with Epstein. I'm sure he has a really good business, you know. Um they're fascinated by him. He's really intelligent. He's he's fun to be around.
23:46I'm sure all these people really liked hanging around him, >> you know. Then he says, "Surprise, you know, I have like a little, you know, 15-year-old here, you know, and maybe some say, no, no, I'm married." Or, "No, that's gross. I don't know." But then some are like, "What? Just what? I can just go and Yeah. They go into a room and then the 15-year-old goes in there and does whatever and then they leave.
24:06Then he has that on a camera. You know, he can blackmail you very easily with that. I mean, that's what Virginia was doing underage with many many men.
24:18>> Yeah. That's that's the thing about him that he was um unfortunately well aware of and very good at. It's even a layer below that.
24:31What you just talked about is when he really gets someone, but he knew because of how dirty and radioactive he was because of the [ __ ] he was around that all and Gilen knew this too. All they had to do >> was just get in a picture with you somewhere.
24:48>> Something that's not public, right? Just someone's got it on their camera roll somewhere. just you with a picture with them >> and forever you're going to be like how well did you know that guy if you're someone else right >> yeah cuz if Epstein's protecting these people he would never have let Virginia take that picture with her camera of her with Prince Andrew >> I mean Gain is standing just right there it's almost just like >> like a sinister picture >> yeah I know I mean if he was really protecting Prince Andrew former Prince Andrew he would have said No picture, >> right?
25:24But that wasn't the point. He was a target.
25:27>> Mhm. Exactly.
25:28>> Everybody was a target. And now you can see that in the emails. I got >> Oh, you can see in the emails for sure.
25:32>> I And and there was a different tone with at least from the emails I've reviewed with Elon Musk. When you see those emails that he would send to Elon, they were very obquous.
25:47>> Yeah. He Yeah. He was just like kind of like playing around with him. What's going to be there? like trying to find out information.
25:52>> No, no, no. I'm I'm sorry. I should explain that better.
25:55>> Jeffrey, that's what Elon was doing.
25:57>> Oh, >> Jeffrey.
25:58>> Oh, >> was very like >> trying to get him. Yeah.
26:03>> Like >> Mhm. That would have been a good one for him to get, but he never got Elon.
26:07>> He never got him. which >> well Elon do you know that he recently just said that any survivor that wants to name a name of their abuser if if the abuser comes forward and tries to do a defamation lawsuit that he'll pay for it.
26:23>> He'll pay for their law fees.
26:24>> Good for him. I and I hope to see that.
26:27>> I do hope to see that too. Good for him because >> that means he's not on their side.
26:32Again, if you have nothing to hide, then you should act like that and you should.
26:36And cuz that was the thing, like when they came out, he'd always said like, "Release the files." I never knew this guy. Never had anything to do with him.
26:42It's like, "Well, you were emailing with him." That's what I had to say was sketchy because Elon is personally answering these emails. It wasn't even like an assistant or something. It would be like same day.
26:51>> And it's like, well, you you probably should have told us you were doing that, >> but it does appear from what we can see that he never got him to the island. He did meet him a couple times, but >> and trust me, if he wanted to go to that island and he if he really wanted to be around all that, he would have went, >> but he didn't go.
27:08>> Yeah.
27:08>> For whatever reason.
27:10>> Yeah. And I that would be that's the kind of thing you need though. Someone extreme. Unfortunately, you got to fight fire with fire. Just the reality.
27:18Someone with extreme power like that saying to the people that are supposed to be powerless like, "Hey, >> yeah, you can be on my team for this.
27:26You have legal problems. I got you. Less less Wexner has no money compared to me, right?
27:31>> That's good.
27:32>> But, you know, you mentioned like Jeffrey being affable to be around >> or whatever it was. Like he's like kind of friendly and charming in that way.
27:41>> Yeah. I think most people wanted to be around him, >> right? It's also he was almost born with a little smirk on his face.
27:48>> Yeah. That little smirk, right?
27:50>> My stomach just turns just thinking about it. And now you also have a guy who's like there were people there's so many people who are just quick to say, "Oh, this guy was really dumb and whatever." And when I hear him talk about science on the limited tapes we have, I think he is outkicking his coverage on that, being a little Charlotte for sure, right?
28:13>> But when I hear him talk about finance, he bumbles around, >> but like it's it's clocking. He knows he knows what's going on there. He's not dumb. Mhm.
28:22>> And the thing is when you kind of have that Coney Island accent, >> people underestimate you. They're like, "Ah, this is the fun guy."
28:30>> Mhm.
28:31>> And then they don't they don't realize like, "Oh, >> this dude a shark."
28:35>> Yeah.
28:36>> You know what I mean?
28:37>> Oh, yeah.
28:37>> Like he had that >> Yeah.
28:40>> package to be able to >> make you feel like >> Well, there has to me there has to be some sort of extreme intelligence to pull all this off, >> right?
28:49>> That people pick up on, >> right? I mean, why would those types of men want to be around him if he wasn't brilliant >> in some way? Yes. You know, >> because they didn't even know that before they'd meet with him, before they'd get to know him. A lot of them didn't know that, you know.
29:04>> No, because Jeffreey's not going to put that out there until he knows who's going to, you know, be playing.
29:09>> Yep. Yep. That's why when I hear a lot of these guys in the years since it's come out be like, I knew he was a charlatan right away. I'm like, you don't need to say that. It's okay if you I know you're a smart guy. It's okay if you didn't think that. Yeah.
29:20>> Like not clearly you and all these people went in there with him before there were women around in some cases.
29:27Like >> you must have thought there was a there there and and that's o that part is okay to admit. But like just be [ __ ] frank about it. Don't >> try to act like oh I knew it the whole time. Well then why did you [ __ ] meet with him 40 times?
29:40>> Yeah. Exactly.
29:42>> Yeah.
29:43>> It's frustrating. It's frustrating. But >> let's get to it cuz we we haven't gone there yet. We've been talking about him.
29:50Obviously, you you spent some time around him, but >> what was the context of you first meeting Jeffrey? And it was in 2000, you said.
30:00>> Yeah. I was a young model had like worked my way around, you know, European countries and South Africa, Miami, and then I found myself, you know, moving to New York City. And um, you know, I was working with this model agency called Q Models. They're still around. Great agency. um and uh booked a job for a cover of a magazine and a spread and booked it with this Eastern European model. And so we flew to Tortola. It's in the British West Indies. It's next to Little St. James, St. John's in that area. Um and you know, did the photo shoot for a few days and then the clients were like, "You got a day off.
30:38You know, you guys can do whatever you want to do." And we were on this little tiny island. So, you know, the girl um that I was booked with, she was like, you know, I have a friend who owns an island nearby, his name is Jeffrey, and he helped me to get my visa to work in the US. Um he's he's been really great.
30:55He's like a mentor to me. But anyway, you know, he said that we can go to his island, you know, just hang out there for the day. And so the client said we could go. This is really strange British clients. Um and so a boat was sent for us. We just got on that boat and we went over to, you know, Little St. James.
31:13>> What kind of boat?
31:14>> It was just a little boat. It wasn't anything fancy because it was not that far away, the island, you know. So, >> I mean, it was not that far away. So, we got on this little boat. We went over to Little St. James.
31:28>> Um, and then we just hung out there for the day. Like she said, we were just going to hang out. Didn't see or meet Epstein, you know, for a while. I just hung out with the other girls. Now, I always remember there was two other girls there, but since the girls have spoken out um and or connecting that they were also on the island, I'm I've understood now there was other girls there. Um but I only remembered two of them. So, like we were playing in the pool. Um myself, the Eastern European girl, and two other girls. They were all blonde, and there was a older man in the pool, too. and he was just like hanging
32:02out with us, but he was really just like kind of frolicking and canoodling with one of the other young girls.
32:08>> And so I just observed that. Um, >> how old were we talking?
32:11>> I don't know. I mean, I don't know. When you're in your early 20s, everybody looks old. [laughter] >> I would think 40s. Okay.
32:17>> Late 40s maybe. At that time, I just knew he was like my dad's age.
32:21>> Yeah.
32:22>> Yeah.
32:22>> We take one step back for a sec. Just when you first got onto the island, you dock. You get off like Do you see the temple first? Do you see what what do you see >> the temple? Um >> whatever that thing was.
32:36>> No, I didn't see the temple or anything like that first. No, I think it was farther back. And um I think going up to the island, I could see like the structures and stuff and I thought, "Wow, it was really beautiful." Um >> um got to remember, we're not thinking too hard about everything back then. And so I was just saw a beautiful island and definitely saw there wasn't too many structures on the island, you know, just some um buildings and um you know it was really uh I just remember it was like a really exotic, gorgeous island. Um and the pool was really pretty. And >> who took you back to the pool? Like when
33:12you get onto the island, who receives you?
33:15>> Oh, that's a good question. I don't know who receives us. Um, I'm guessing it had to have been the other young girls. I think it was the other young girls. There was always young girls on the island. So, like there was a couple girls that greeted us and brought us in. All I saw were young girls that I was hanging out with while I was there.
33:34>> Um, I only observed an older man who was in the pool for a little while. Um, but he wasn't with us for most of the day.
33:42He just was in the pool for a little while, then he left. And then we were all just hanging out around the pool. Um then we went into our the room just to get dressed, you know, for dinner that evening. Um, and then we went to this really long table um, on the main house and sat down at the table with the other girls there and um, that's when I met Epstein and he walked in and said hello and sat down right next to me and um, he just started asking me a bunch of questions, you know, about like my dreams and ambitions and like what I was doing and where I traveled and I was just telling him, you know, about, you know, my life and what
34:24I was really into and things like that.
34:25And um we talked a bit and I had uh the the one thing that's that really sticks out to me is I had lived in England growing up and so I was telling him about living in Oxford and um you know he had said he'd been there and knew a lot about Oxford. We talked about that and he had asked me if I wanted to meet a prince and so I was looking at the other girls like what a prince and in that moment the gentleman from the pool walked up and he was dressed like he was leaving. So he said goodbye to everyone and he said hello to me and then he it was brief and then he just left. So after that I was like I was
35:03like oh that's kind of cool. I met a prince >> that was Prince Andrews in the pool.
35:08>> Former Prince Andrew. former Prince Andrew.
35:10>> Then he was Yes. Um so I, you know, I had definitely seen a prince on the island. Didn't really think that much of it. Um and then we were trying to leave, you know, to go on the boat to go back to the other island because we were supposed to get back cuz we we had to work, you know. Um but then it was getting dark and Jeffrey said, "Oh, you can't leave. You have to stay on the you have to stay here tonight." And so >> how did he say it?
35:40>> Well, he just was like, "Oh, well, it's getting dark. You guys can't leave yet.
35:44We can't send the boat back." So, he couldn't send the boat back for us to leave on. So, I didn't I didn't really think anything of it. I just thought, "Okay, well, I guess we'll just stay here." [sighs and gasps] Um, and so we went to that room. And then I remember there was like an outdoor shower and we got ready for bed and and I was just hanging out with the other girl in the bed and we were just like chatting and stuff and and I had known her like from my agency, you know, I'd seen her around and stuff. So, um I felt really comfortable with her and safe with her. Um and then one of the other girls knocked on the door and was
36:18like, you know, Jeffree is ready for his massage. Let's go. And I was just like, huh? What do you mean a massage? And she's just like, "Oh, well, you know, Jeffrey likes massages." And then the Polish girl that brought me was like, "Oh, yeah. Well, I'm sorry, Lisa. I didn't think that he was going to want to do a massage with you, [sighs] but you know, he likes to do these massages." You know, she was like, "You can just follow what I do." And then we kind of argued a little bit like, "You go do the massage." And then I turned to the girl who knocked on the door and was like, "Do I have to?" And she was like,
36:48"Yeah, you have to. He said you have to." [sighs] So I was just like, "Okay." So, I just went with the other girls and walked across the island to his bedroom area where, you know, we walked in and there was a real massage table and he was laying on the massage table naked. There was like a towel.
37:08>> No towel.
37:09>> Well, there was kind of a towel on him, but you can see he was naked.
37:12>> He's just lying there.
37:13>> Yeah, he's lying there. And then >> how how long was the walk between where you were and the Cuz you're outside.
37:18>> I don't know. It felt like forever, >> right? cuz at that point things had taken a different turn >> because I just thought we were there to hang out on the island and we were going to go back to the clients and to back to our safe job.
37:30>> But um I didn't expect to do a massage.
37:35I mean first of all I don't even know how to do a massage. So the whole thing just seemed really weird and I could see on the look on their faces that was probably wasn't a good thing.
37:45Um, so I just was in the room and so it turned out to be a real massage where I remember learning real massage techniques like how to like massage the back.
37:59>> They're teaching you.
38:00>> Heath is teaching me and how to close my eyes and give the massage. I remembered all that.
38:05>> Um, because he he definitely directed us through it. He he definitely likes massages, you know, he hired massuses and all that stuff. So, he's probably trying to see if I could be a really good massage masseuse, you know, maybe to hire me later. I don't know. But he definitely wanted me to do a real massage and the other girl. So, we did a real massage like on his back and shoulders. Um, but then that's when everything was done. the massage was done and that's when he flipped over and that's when he wanted to play with himself and look at our bodies and take our shirts off and [sighs] and I just looked at the other girl and
38:42we kind of just had this thing where we were just like frozen like this and we just kind of just did what what he said and he was touching us kind of aggressively and it turned into a it turned into an assault between her and I um and that was just just ended. It just ended after that pretty quickly and we just kind of ran out of there.
39:10>> When that when he first turns over and any questions you don't want to answer here, you don't have to answer. We can get off this. But >> and like you realize this is taking a very very dark turn.
39:25Did you you said you looked at the other girl like did did time stop and did you freeze at all or was it you went into some form of like autopilot like just get through this?
39:39>> Well, in hindsight she knew him and obviously since she got her visa through him she probably has done these massages before. So, it was a thing where I was looking at her and she kind of held my hand in a way of like like don't leave like if I was like determined to run out of there and she was like holding my hand too and like helping me just like to get through it. And so I just kind of looked at her and just relied on her just to, you know, massage this dude and get and get out of there. Um, but his his demeanor changed. He wasn't like this friendly mentor type person anymore. Now, he was a little dark and
40:15he just like kind of got off on us young girls, you know? So, it was kind of like that nasty grin he had, that sinister little grin he had um of just trying to just get off and do what I mean. He was literally getting off. So, um we just had to just deal with it until like he was done and then we just literally ran out of there.
40:37>> Did he look you in the eyes at all?
40:38>> Mhm.
40:41What did you see when he when you make eye contact with him?
40:45>> Well, I know that look with him. So, it was a darker It was definitely a dark look. He was definitely um it wasn't the same person as before. It's definitely a a shift in his personality, >> form of ownership kind of thing.
41:01>> Yeah. And a form of like getting off on your fear.
41:05>> Yeah. I kind I've I've I've [clears throat] heard a lot of these accounts from victims who've been brave enough to speak out over the years and you know even young girls who've talked about it and I don't know like I always I you can't understand it at all if you're not there like you get it but I >> I get it now.
41:28>> You get it now.
41:30>> Well because it's never just about a sexual assault. It's not really about sex. It's really about controlling me.
41:36So, what I saw earlier was a very powerful figure, royalty on his island.
41:41>> And if he had just let me go without assaulting me, I can go run my mouth to whoever. But controlling me in that way of a sexual assault is like, "No, you're going to shut up. You're not going to say anything because now you have a secret and now you did something bad."
41:54You know? So, it's in a way of making me feel like I did something wrong. So, now I have to deal with shame and not the fact that I saw. So if I tell people then it might be like oh then I have to tell what else happened on that island.
42:07So now when I left the island I didn't want to tell anybody about anything to do with the island. So it was the assaults are usually to keep your mouth shut >> right >> people have to understand that the the assaults that he was doing to all the young girls was to keep you quiet. It wasn't to just get off on you know >> or secret. You're not allowed to say anything. Yeah.
42:29>> Yeah. Because I mean I didn't see it like that then when I I mean dawn broke and we got on that boat and we I never went back to the island again. I got as clear as way as I could. But also something bad had happened to the island that now that's what was in my mind. I didn't give her a rat's ass about seeing a prince on the island. I never really thought about that until a couple years later when another incident happened, you know, so I didn't really think so much.
42:56Honestly, when I started telling my story at first, I didn't really even a lot of times even bring up the fact that I saw him on the island cuz it wasn't the most important thing that happened to me, you know, it was only another girlfriend was like, you know, he was that prince was on the island. And I'm like, yeah, but she was like, that's really important that that prince was on the island. And to me, it never was any importance really until 2019 when Virginia Grey spoke out.
43:20>> Right.
43:22I obvious is is on a awful personal level. I just that that seizing of power exchange is just so dark to think about because it's like a the way you describe it. It's almost like this telepathic messaging >> that happens that that's like I got you.
43:48>> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a good way of describing it.
43:51>> Yeah. That telepathic thing of just like Yeah.
43:54>> You I mean, I think that's like that with most serial predators and abusers is that >> that sexual exchange really isn't about sex. It's really just about this control they have over you.
44:04>> Yes.
44:05>> You know, cuz it's filled with the shame they know. They put that shame on you.
44:09>> Yeah. You know, >> and you said it was relatively quickly you use that word, but is that just you thinking it sped up or was might you have been in there for a while?
44:24[snorts] >> No, I don't think it was that long. I don't think it was long. Well, the massage was longer, I think, than the assault, but the assault was very aggressive.
44:35>> And and and he uses tools.
44:37>> He uses tools. Mhm.
44:40A lot of a lot of his assault on this is the same MMO he uses is is he uses like vibrators and things. So >> Were you ever in pain like like very physical pain?
44:53>> Yeah. It didn't feel good.
44:54>> Yeah.
44:55>> I had never used something like that before.
44:58I mean I have a lot of trauma about those things.
45:01>> Yeah.
45:01>> You know, so now even so that's not my my thing. Um, >> do you remember when when when he when it was that part was over?
45:12Did he like >> discard you?
45:16>> Yeah. Did he say you can go >> just discarding? Yeah.
45:19>> Or did he not even say anything?
45:21>> Well, there's no romanticizing anything, so it's definitely discarding.
45:26>> Okay. Like done. Bye.
45:28>> That's what he said.
45:28>> I don't know if that I can't remember exactly what he said, right?
45:31>> But I know >> that's how he was.
45:34>> Mhm. Do you remember the walk back to your room?
45:38>> The walk? You mean the run?
45:39>> The run.
45:40>> The run. Yeah. It was kind of like a run back. Yeah. What I remember most was staying up all night and staring at the ceiling and and like literally in fear of he was going to come back or there was going to be another knock on the door or there was going to be another request for massage or there was going to be a flatout assault and just jump in the bed. I don't know what was going to happen. It was just scary.
46:05It was just scary just to think that I was like trapped on an island like how the [ __ ] did I even get on this island?
46:10What am I even doing here, you know? Um, and not even being able to really talk about it with the girl, you know, the girl who brought me.
46:20>> There was no discussion at all.
46:22>> Not really. Not really. Just more of an apology. Like, I'm sorry. I think she said that. Well, I think I think she thought because her knowing of Epstein, you have to understand the the type of people that he's around and the type of purity they love and the type of blue blood they love is very white skinned, blue-eyed and blonde hair thing. And all the girls look like that.
46:44>> And I'm like this exotic girl, you know, even though I grown up like in Europe and things, you know, my mother is like Indian background. I'm Italian and like Scottish and West Indian. I'm I'm like this multicultural girl. That's how I saw myself. Um, and so I saw myself as kind of being a little bit different than these other girls. Like I looked a little bit different. So I started thinking in my mind, well, well, maybe he just wanted to do that to me because I was different. I don't know. And maybe she brought me thinking that she he wasn't going to do anything to me. Why would he why would he do anything to her
47:16cuz he likes this type. So I think she thought I was safe and maybe she would have to do a massage, you know, not me.
47:23I don't think they thought that he would want me because when he asked me to go do it when when the girls came it was like they were like like you have to go do it. He said you >> I want to come back to that girl specifically in a second but I'm thinking of a more extreme example that was around Jeffrey that I would love your analysis on.
47:45What do you think of someone like Sarah Kellen Vickers who at least from what I'm able to see was someone who seemed to have been abused by him and brought in and groomed and then eventually becomes order follower who is bringing in other women allegedly. I guess I have to say publicly but you know you know what I mean. bringing in other women for him to abuse. What do you think of someone like that who started on the one side and ended up on the other? Do you have any empathy for them whatsoever?
48:24>> Absolutely.
48:25>> You do?
48:26>> Absolutely. 100% I do. Um, if she was assaulted and groomed, then she was still being groomed by him. You know, the lovehate relationship, that trauma bond that you have with your abuser, and that's how Jeffree operated. Every girl was made to bring in other girls. Like he if you were brought to him and he didn't like you or whatever, then he made you bring in another girl or at least introduce you to your best friends or friends. Um um I believe that the the secretaries that were never abused, I believe they're 100% at fault and they knew what they were doing. The ones who used to hound you to go meet
49:06>> like Leslie Grath and all that.
49:07>> She was the one who used to call me all the time. Um, I believe unless I unless I'm told differently that, um, they should have known better. But I think someone like Sarah Kellen, even if they got a little older and brought people in, I think that's just the the grooming that he had, that attachment that he had over you. I know a lot of survivors may not feel this way, but I really believe um that sometimes you have that's just what Jeffrey did was have that kind of girl that >> Jeffrey that's what Jeffrey did was had that type of grasp over you.
49:39>> I don't know what he was holding over her head to make her bring in other girls. But there was 14, 15, 16 year olds that brought other girls and lots of them too.
49:46>> Yes. I have a ton of empathy for the really young girls like you heard about in the cases in West Palm Beach where he just made this >> [ __ ] pyramid scheme with here's a couple hundred dollars >> or whatever.
50:00>> Bring your friends, go to high school, bring more friends. I it's I just wonder where the cut off point of empathy goes because it's tough when I you can see pictures from the from the press of like >> Sarah at age 28 hugging him on the street seven years eight years after his conviction working for him and you know I'll get this is another example here >> but that's why it's so complicated right >> it's very complicated but here's a tough One, there is, it's not guaranteed, but there is some serious evidence that Gilean Maxwell was sadistically abused by her father.
50:42>> Who was an Robert Maxwell was an evil evil man?
50:47>> I can believe that.
50:48>> Does that make what she did empathetic?
50:53>> No. Because most abusers were abused.
50:57Yes. Yes.
50:57>> And you have the choice and you have that choice to make a a right decision in your life, you know, to do right by people. And and and I do know that a lot of people were I would definitely would believe that she was abused.
51:11>> Yeah.
51:11>> To become an abuser of that massive scale. But that doesn't give them the right to do that. Of course, >> to be a grown woman in your 30s, 40s, jumping out of a car, running after a child >> to bring them back when she knows that what they're doing is abusing cuz she was in on the abuse.
51:30>> I think a lot of the victims who were bringing other girls may not have known so much of how much they were being abused unless they were unless Sarah Kellen was participating. I don't know if she was or wasn't. I don't really know her full story, but I do think that he groomed you so much to believe that he was doing right. Like he's helps out people. I always thought he helped out people. I've had friends that have met him through me and that have gotten jobs through him, >> you know, and gotten went through four years of of college, university through him, met their husbands through him, and
52:04that will say to this day, "Oh, nothing was wrong. Everything's fine. Like, I I'll never speak out bad about him." You know, there's there's so many layers to it.
52:13>> Yeah.
52:14>> There's so many layers to it. So, >> I mean, to answer your question about people like Sarah Cullen, I just think there's a big difference with someone who was abused by him, >> you know.
52:27>> I understand.
52:28>> And then he he grooms you later on cuz I was I was really groomed by him, too.
52:33>> Yeah. And that's that's the that's the thing about the power abusers like that hold because you feel awful about it when it's happening. You run out of there when it's done. You don't sleep that whole night. The other girl who's obviously been abused a bunch herself >> is like sorry but doesn't want to talk about it. So you just don't talk about it. And then somewhere in there >> that power that they have >> makes you well you tell me does it make you like kind of turn on yourself like well >> it's not about me and it's just it's just not me. So when I spoke out recently the agent that booked us on
53:18that job >> the Polish girl and I were at the same modeling agency. The agent that booked us on that job after we got back home, she said to me, "I'm sorry that I didn't protect you because Leslie and those secretaries called the model agency over and over again looking for me."
53:38>> And this woman knew what this guy does.
53:40>> I'm telling you, that's not just like I go to an island, I'm viewed. Oh, it's all my fault. I was so stupid. I shouldn't have gone to an island. this guy wasounding my model agency to look for me to bring me back over there and they knew and they and she said to me, "I'm sorry that I didn't protect you. I should have known better, >> but she didn't know. I mean, she just recently told me as I've been speaking out and more people, you know, the agent who booked me on the job, I she had nothing to do with the abuse, but Jeffrey Epstein's secretaries were calling my model agency after I left the
54:13island for months trying to get me back over >> to meet with him. And even after I became a Ford model, even after Jeffrey Epson introduced me, after he finally got me back on a phone conversation to go meet with the Ford modeling agency, I went to go meet with that agency when he called me because I felt like he owed me something.
54:34>> Like you took something from me on that island. Okay, well maybe you feel bad and I'm going to go meet with that Ford model agency. Even after I became a Ford model, when I had to go meet with Epstein for the second time, it was written in my schedule in my modeling calendar for the day. So, it wasn't me just like, "Oh, I'm going to go back and see Epstein." It was actually written through my booker at my model agency.
55:00>> Who was the booker?
55:03>> Well, I'm not saying her name. It wasn't Katie Ford. That was the owner and director.
55:07>> Um, I mean, she may not have even known what was going on, you I'm not like holding her, >> okay?
55:12>> Like I haven't heard from her, >> but they wrote that so they would schedule out your days and it would be like 2:00 Jeffrey Epste.
55:18>> Why am I seeing Jeffrey Epste agency?
55:21That's the hold and the grasp he had on on people and institutions, agencies, universities, >> everything.
55:30>> All right. If you don't mind, I do want to back up for one second to the first day there.
55:37You didn't sleep the whole night.
55:38>> Mhm. Do you leave the island in the morning? Like right away?
55:42>> Dawn breaks. Yeah.
55:43>> Okay. So, dawn breaks. Does someone come get you and say there's a boat?
55:48>> Probably. Yeah. We just ran and got on the boat and just left.
55:52>> Okay. And you go and you do your job you're supposed to do that day back.
55:56Where was that again?
55:57>> Tortola.
55:58>> Tortola.
56:00>> Yeah. We finish up the job then we leave and go back to New York.
56:03>> Okay.
56:05And then you said that you found out that he was calling right away the modeling agency saying we want to get her back whether it be to the island or at my New York place or whatever.
56:17>> Make an appointment for me to go see with him.
56:18>> Okay.
56:19>> To go see him. Uh no, he al the the secret the secretaries also called me over and over and over again.
56:25>> So they called me, they called my model agency.
56:30>> Okay.
56:32Did you tell anyone else about this?
56:33like a friend or anybody.
56:35>> Well, I went to like some um what are they called?
56:40>> Those group centers where you go and you sit and you talk to people and you listen. Yeah. I didn't I went I went to that um I had told one girlfriend about it and she went with me to this counseling thing but it was traumatizing hearing about all the br because they were more like brutal and mine was kind of confusing and I felt like if I told my story like I would look like I I did something wrong >> really.
57:06>> Yeah. I don't know. I just didn't find >> I didn't feel as comfortable telling my story because it was so confusing what happened. But you didn't think your own was pretty the way you describe it that I mean any is brutal but that that that seems pretty brutal to me.
57:19>> Well, because maybe because it's digital, you know what I mean? That uses fingers and the tools and things is very different than the other I was hearing were like, you know, like how do you say like >> Yeah. Being overpowered. I see what you're saying.
57:34>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was overpowered, but they were, you know, I'm talking about like, you know, penal. I don't know like like the term for it. But it but Epstein's were digital. So, >> you know, I didn't really know how to like understand it.
57:51>> So, you only went to one of those?
57:53>> I went to a couple of them, but I just never really felt comfortable with that those those types of therapy sessions.
57:58Yeah. [snorts] >> How long was it between leaving the island and having that first meeting with him?
58:07>> Approximately.
58:08>> Four months.
58:08>> Four months.
58:09>> Oh, yeah. those months.
58:10>> So, you have you have time. You're trying to process it on your own. Was there a point in those four months where you kind of like I don't know, trauma compartmentalized it and went about your life?
58:26>> Oh, yeah. Of course. I had a complete personality shift after that. It was like I was kind of damaged.
58:33>> So, I didn't really feel good about myself. I know that I started drinking and like doing some drugs and like partying and being out on the scene and you know now I identify with all the people who hang out and party.
58:47[laughter] I felt like like them where before I don't think I really understood them so much. I think I was like a little more that goody goody like you know >> you know like ew you're doing that you know that kind of stuff. I think after that it was just like oh let's hang out let's party and and it and it worked.
59:05Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
59:11And if you'd like to check out this clips full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here.
59:17And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
Read the essay version →