0:01So, I I didn't realize this because now like obviously we know they covered up the JFK thing forever and all that. But a couple things in there. First of all, you said there was a late there was investigation in the late 70s that ran concurrent between JFK and MLK?
0:15>> So, there was a group that was formed called the House Select Committee on Assassinations. It It's not an accident it came in the late 1970s because we started to get all of the revelations about all the dirty stuff the FBI and the CIA were up to. People already were you know, suspicious of both crimes.
0:33>> Mhm.
0:33>> And now they had the record about all the other nefarious stuff the government was up to. So, they said, you know, we need to really go back into the Kennedy assassination and the King assassination. We're going to create a select committee.
0:45Like a small subdivision and we're just going to dedicate it to investigating both assassinations. Separately, similar investigators, same Congress people involved.
0:55And in both cases, this is why I get crazy when people say the official version is lone assassin in these cases.
1:02In both cases, JFK and MLK, they concluded that there was a likely conspiracy in both crimes.
1:09>> And this was publicly released that they concluded that?
1:12>> Correct.
1:13So, really and truly the official version is that there was a likely conspiracy in both JFK's assassination and MLK's assassination and they had asked the Justice Department to try and follow through.
1:27The Justice Department did what I would argue was a fairly superficial re-look into JFK.
1:34And uh decided that there was one piece of evidence we could talk about if you want that they thought the entire House Select Committee was based on and since they argued that they debunked it, they didn't have to do a JFK assassination.
1:46>> What was that?
1:47>> That was the acoustics evidence. So, >> evidence.
1:50>> So, there was supposedly and I'll be honest, I am at I waver between being deeply skeptical to being just not sure about this piece of evidence, but there was a recording that was supposed supposed to have been recorded on a stuck mic on one of the motorcycle officers in Dealey Plaza during Kennedy's assassination that they only kind of realized what the potential was of this thing years later. So, they gave it to computer programmers and they gave it to acoustics experts.
2:21Can were there gunshots recorded on this film? Was it recorded in Dealey Plaza?
2:25Does it have gunshots? Can we tell where the gunshots are coming from?
2:30And they concluded then that there was a very high likelihood that there were gunshots that came at least one came from the grassy knoll.
2:38Um however, there's a lot of questions about that acoustics evidence and some of it was addressed by the Justice Department when they had a separate group just look at that scientific group look at that recording.
2:53>> Was this the same scientific group that looked at the magic bullet?
2:56>> No, no, no, no. This was This was a group that was just like experts in physics and acoustics.
3:02And the big issue was is that there's a a there's recording on that that like of there's cross talk. So, you know that the cops were like uh let's be on guard while we're in Dealey Plaza.
3:17Oh crap, the president's just been shot.
3:19[laughter] Right? We have that stuff on we have that stuff on on on like recording and on transcript timed.
3:29Right? So, you can you can look at that stuff and it got supposedly accidentally recorded over on the stuck mic.
3:37So, in theory, if you can figure out what's going on sound wise cross talk wise >> Yes.
3:44>> you could time the the recording of the supposed shots.
3:48>> corroborating from vantage points effectively.
3:50>> When you do that, you've wound up with a situation where it certainly looks like the sounds that they said were gun impulses or or should say bullet fire impulses came after the president had left Dealey Plaza.
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4:27>> There's some thought that the that the um needle on that microphone jumped.
4:35Like there was like you know, it was stuck and then it jumped forward so it recorded later physically on the device than it actually did in real time and so it really is shots.
4:45But that's a low percentage.
4:47As other people would argue it's also probably a low percentage that you get shots impulses on a microphone recording that seem to align pretty closely to the Zapruder film.
4:56>> I would say so.
4:57>> So they So there's you you've got this this battle.
5:01It's very tricky to make sense of um but the Justice Department clearly went in the direction of oh these can't be gunshots cuz they were recorded after based on the crosstalk.
5:13So we're not even going to bother >> Conveniently.
5:15>> with everything else you found out and interview people and potentially prosecute people. We're just going to let that go away.
5:24Um but in many cases King assassination was even worse. I don't believe they even at that time did any kind of legitimate investigation into the King assassination as a result of what was sent by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Even though in both cases likely conspiracy conclusion.
5:43>> Yeah, and they're both obviously bad.
5:44And then in the middle of all this, by the way, there's RFK during the '60s, too, which you're also an expert on. So, I'm sure we'll talk about that, too, but All right, lot of things there. First of all, I had Johnny Russo in here maybe 24 episodes after you in number 184, and he says a lot of things. Some things you're like, I don't know. Other things you're like, huh, maybe. But he was I was asking him, you know, >> [laughter] >> how did how did they get Kennedy? He goes, "They were down in the sewer." And I'm like, "The sewer?" He's like, "Yeah, they were down there and then they they ran underground. No one ever saw them."
6:13>> So, there is a theory of a sewer shooting. Um there is like a place where it theoretically could have happened and then theoretically you could have gotten into the tunnel system and gotten away.
6:25>> Theoretically.
6:25>> Um I think people who And and then the people who did this, I should mention, are are people who think that there was a conspiracy. It wasn't like, you know, I'm a official debunker uh who looked into it and like went into like the the place in Dealey Plaza where it happened, and they knew some thing or two about guns, and I think they said that it it just doesn't work from a ballistics angle situation, firearms situation.
6:49So, I've always been super skeptical of the the sewer angle.
6:52>> Yeah, I'm also always skeptical of the guys who, you know, I've heard a million of these stories where some dude in prison like claimed he was the dude that did it or some guy later in life claimed he was the dude who did it to another like underworld person. It's like, you know.
7:07>> In in in all three assassinations, but Kennedy to the 10th power.
7:12>> Oh, yeah.
7:13>> You have to be so careful about people who come after the fact.
7:17>> Yes.
7:18>> All right? The people who have stuff that you can look at before the fact, like I have that in King assassination, we could talk about it.
7:25They I take a whole lot more seriously.
7:27In Kennedy assassination, I've had crazy crazy interactions with people where like and it and it [clears throat] happens more than once. My my favorite I was I was 17 years old, all right?
7:41That's how long I've been I've been into this since I was 12.
7:43>> 17 looking into this.
7:45>> Longer. I've been into it since I was 12. The books were all over [laughter] my house, right? I used to present in middle and high school classes about yeah.
7:52>> That's actually really cool.
7:53>> So I went I went down when the first files were released. That's how much of a Kennedy assassination I were was at that young an age. Got on TV. That's a crazy story. But I'm in an elevator with my father. We're going up to go check the first files. This is at the original archives before NARA even had officially open.
8:11There's this guy on the on the elevator with us.
8:15And he's in like overalls. He looks like he just came from a paint job after he went underneath someone's car and fixed their muffler or something, right? He was dirty as you could ever imagine with what you look like oil and he had paint all over him, right?
8:32And he starts He starts up a conversation. He's like, "You guys here for Kennedy assassination?" And I'm like, "Yeah." So he says, "Yeah, I I've been I've been needing to look into something."
8:43He says, "Ever since I was at the monastery." I'm like, "Bro, if you were at a monastery, you had a real >> [laughter] >> real life change." And he said, he says to me, "Yeah, I was I was in there and we was one of those monasteries where nobody is allowed to talk very much and you're like just eating bread and water.
9:00And then we got this one guy who no one was allowed to even like approach.
9:05And you know, he's always in his like monk garb with like a hoodie on. But one day I accidentally bumped into him.
9:13And sure enough, it was Lee Harvey Oswald.
9:17>> I'll get the [ __ ] out.
9:18>> And I said, "What year was this?" And he's like, "Oh, it was like 1988."
9:23Right? [snorts and clears throat] And I'm like, He's like And he's like And he And he goes like, "And I dug into it and it was a fake shooting." And I'm like, "People have People have argued that before." Um I said, "You say this is 1988." And I said you know that they exhumed him in 1983.
9:41And it was him.
9:42>> Mhm.
9:42>> So, it couldn't have been him in 1988.
9:45So, we get out of the elevator. He doesn't get out on the floor where the files are. He just waits for the elevator to [laughter] close and goes right down. Never saw him again.
9:54>> you know what's funny though, too, Stu?
9:56We're having like this giant existential just moment of questioning everything because there are such crazy things that we're seeing in the Epstein files that I'm also really trying to keep my head screwed on to look at everything else that's not Epstein and Epstein as well, but especially things that have nothing to do with it with like a clear view and trying to follow evidence and not pull on threads too hard and just assume it's the 10th power of whatever the 10th power is. That said, I have to say when you see things as blatantly as we're seeing it right now and clearly how long that went on, you know,
10:37it makes you wonder about everything else. Now, do I think they had [ __ ] AI in 1963 to be able to like [ __ ] with the Zapruder film and change it back then? But no, I I I don't. But it is interesting to hear that they, you know, not from paint guy under the car, but from other credible people that we hear talk about this who have suggested that maybe what you saw isn't exactly what you saw. Well, you know, even 7-8 years ago, um and I was somebody who in all three crimes, I'm I'm probably on the scale of like, you know, one to everyone and humanity and aliens killed somebody within the conspiracy
11:24research field, if you think it's a field, I'm probably one of the people who's closer to a two or three. Like, you know, in other words, we think something happened, but it's it's a lot less complicated, a lot messier, a lot more incompetent than you think.
11:37>> We got to get those numbers up.
11:38>> Yeah.
11:40But, here's what I'd say over the last 8 years, you know, one of the main things that people will say to you is nothing that big or nothing that substantial could possibly have been kept secret for that long. Now, the premise it's it's it's a it's a bad syllogism, right?
11:59Because both the major and the minor premise as I'll I'll get to the major. The minor is that there nothing was actually said is actually false. Well, if my my co-author on the King books Larry Hancock wrote a book called Somebody Would Have Talked based on this whole that whole idea, oh, nobody ever said anything about the Kennedy assassination, it somebody would have said something.
12:21And in fact, people did say stuff. Now, some of it's controversial, but if you ever read his book uh he does a pretty darn good job of getting down to the ones where you really have to scratch your head and say, did this person hint at the Kennedy assassination immediately before and then this person hinted at it immediately after before anybody could have known things.
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14:14>> So, that's a problem.
14:15>> Dude, did you ever read Devil's Chessboard by Talbot?
14:18>> I've read parts of it with with with Alan Dulles.
14:22>> Yeah.
14:23>> Um well, getting to that, just real quick, if I could finish the thought.
14:27>> Please.
14:28>> The bigger theories, like the the bigger premise, which is the idea that you can't keep this stuff hidden.
14:34Between what happened with the Catholic Church and sexual predation, what happened with Bill Cosby for decades, what happened with Harvey Weinstein for decades, right?
14:48>> The amount of people who kind of sort of knew.
14:50>> Yeah.
14:51>> But, you know, know, and I've been in this experience before, where you kind of sort of know something, but no one wants to say anything because the the the if nobody else says anything, you're a goner.
15:05Right? You need like 35 other people to say it with you, or you're not going to especially when you get the stuff where it's your life, right, that's on the line there, right, if you say something.
15:18Like when you're talking assassinations, or organized crime, anything along those lines. It's I mean, losing a job is something, but losing your life, pretty bad.
15:29>> Yep.
15:30>> So, I've come to think that both things are not necessarily true. I'm still more skeptical of the larger conspiracy keeping quiet thing. I'm just not as skeptical as I was even 8 years ago.
15:45>> Yeah, I The reason I ask about Devil's Chessboard is because I mean, it's an amazing book. I cite it all the time. But, that really the way Talbot like sourced that and explained the power structure, not even explained it, painted you the picture of it consistently, story after story over decades made me rethink how I would think about a major secret being kept. And here's what I mean by that.
16:15I used to think that oh, too many people would have to know about this thing and they never be able to keep a lid on it.
16:24Not if they're getting killed when someone comes out and the other 35 are afraid to do it in their little subsection of the station, right? And so, even with something like Kennedy, what really put in perspective for me is I'm just making up a number here, but you know, imagine 100,000 people worked at CIA and the Pentagon. Let me just keep it simple like that.
16:4599,950 some of them at least maybe more had no idea that was going to happen that day.
16:54And so, when you are talking about such a low number of people in the highest part of the structure who are complicit to to make that decision and probably make a deal with organized crime and all these other elements as well, whose job is to [ __ ] stay silent and they literally do kill you if you don't. You know, I got to think that it would be allowed to happen to the point that once people did start talking 5 years, 6 years, 7 years later, it would already be in the public consciousness is like A, back then they could cover it up because there's no internet. And B, people be like, "No, we've already heard
17:28the story. This guy's just looking for clout." And then and then they get ostracized or whatever. And then the other people who are ready to come corroborator are like, "Nope, I'm not doing this." And that's something you've heard across all the cases you cited.
17:42The same effect happened.
17:44>> Yeah, many years.
17:45>> And and the other thing is is these are organizations that are self-selected for people who could keep a secret.
17:51Like if you're a blabbermouth and it becomes obvious you don't stay in CIA covert operations very long.
17:58Uh and I have enormous respect for David and and his book. And I have a lot of issues with Allen Dulles.
18:04I'm open to the possibility, right? Um I need to see a little bit more. And the other thing is there's always something that complicates something. So, you know, one of David's key things and which by the way, part of what David did is also been corroborated in the in one of his other books actually that doesn't get nearly the talk where he's talking about Bobby Kennedy, the brothers and I think it's called brothers. Some of it gets into Devil's Chessboard.
18:30Bobby Kennedy absolutely suspected that there was a conspiracy in in his brother's murder.
18:34Um and took a lot of covert behind-the-scenes measures to investigate.
18:39Um and initially he was blown off of his mental faculties cuz he was super close with his brother. He may have worried that some of the stuff he put in motion cuz he was handling stuff.
18:54>> Right. And mob hearings also he was put in charge of a lot of monitoring of the CIA's covert operations after Bay of Pigs cuz JFK really uh only trusted when it came down to I only I have to trust only one person was his his brother, right?
19:10>> I know like that.
19:11>> Right. And so the the the problem for Bobby is he's wondering if things he was doing cuz he was doing some off-book stuff against Castro, if some of that came back to to to to possibly get his brother.
19:25And I'll I'll I'll get to that a second.
19:26It's it's very interesting. That tends to get overlooked. But the other thing, the thing that really makes me question and wonder with Allen Dulles, and this may come up in our King assassination, if you remember the Mississippi Burning murders with you know, the the two Jewish and one black civil rights worker get get killed in Mississippi. It's a huge nationwide manhunt.
19:46>> Didn't that become a movie, too?
19:47>> It absolutely did. And by the way, it connects to King assassination. I can explain.
19:51>> Okay.
19:52>> Um well, you can't rely on the local police to investigate. Of course, we find out the local police were behind it. Um right?
20:01But there was a massive FBI investigation there, which again, hugely important in the discussion of King assassination.
20:09And Bobby didn't trust I imagine that Hoover was going to do a a full-on job on this thing. So, he wanted another person to monitor.
20:19And what's strange is Bobby, if he was as suspicious of Allen Dulles as as um David puts in the book, well, we have the recordings. Bobby lobbied pretty hard that Allen Dulles get be the person who monitors the the uh Mississippi Burning investigation.
20:41And I am a little bit why would he do that?
20:45>> Oh, I got an idea.
20:46>> You think it's to get him off of the Warren Commission or something?
20:48>> I No. I I think they absolutely Like he A lot of things are true about the Kennedys at the same time. Just even look at JFK.
20:58When you look at the things he stood for politically as a president and the things he stood up to and the things that he wanted to do and the leadership quality he had and all those things.
21:08Amazing. Never had a chance to see it all through, but had the potential to be one of the greatest presidents of all time.
21:16When you look at JFK outside of the office, he was a very flawed guy.
21:20>> Of course.
21:21>> His brother was also a very flawed guy.
21:24The Kennedys are some very flawed people. And I personally strongly believe that especially back then with guys like Alan Dulles who were getting compromat on people since they were working on [ __ ] New York Law Street back in the 1910s, you know, I personally believe that there were some strings pulled back there to keep the brother in check because now the brother also had his [ __ ] had the head cut off the [ __ ] dog, essentially. And he was just a tail.
21:57Tail's dead, too, you know.
21:59>> That's actually what Carlos Marcello supposedly said about about what had to happen.
22:03>> Cut the head off the dog.
22:04>> To get rid of Bobby, you had to kill Jack. And And I don't know if Marcello was involved, but And I don't know if he even said that, but supposedly he said that. Um I tend to agree with you. I just I don't The other element, and it gets to what you were saying especially about Jack.
22:20Um he had a social circle. Like it it like he didn't have like people just, you know, fine women and bring them to him >> Uh-huh.
22:28>> at the White House. He was >> You got to careful how you say that now, too.
22:31>> Yes. Yes.
22:32>> [laughter] >> He was He was um He went to He was in the social scene in Washington, D.C.
22:38And if you look at the people who were in that scene, and it doesn't mean they were best friends, but they were you know, almost like frat buddies, maybe. Um They're some of the people that people sometimes throw out as potentially being involved in in the Kennedy assassination.
22:57Uh Des Fitzgerald, who was one of the guys who was kind of running the the the last operation against Castro >> [snorts] >> to kill him.
23:06>> Mhm.
23:07>> Uh he's in books as being like part of like the people who hobnob with Jack when he's kind of sort of maybe womanizing.
23:15Um and that raises a question because one of the things that comes up in the Kennedy assassination is basically right at the time of JFK is being killed they're arranging with a Cuban official to kill Castro. That Cuban official Rolando Cubela said he would not go through with it unless he got like direct assurances that the Kennedy family was behind it.
23:37Now, I don't know if they ever gave the direct assurances. I know Des Fitzgerald claimed he got it.
23:42>> Okay, so Des was claiming that he was doing >> At the very at the quite at the end he's like, yes when he I'm he met I think he met with Cubela in person. He's like, yeah.
23:51>> Who was Cubela again?
23:53>> Cubela was an official in Cuba who had put out feelers and said that he was open to a being part of a Castro regime change, killing Castro assassination plot.
24:04>> How long How long later did we learn that about like that this happened?
24:08>> very much to your point.
24:10>> Yeah.
24:11>> Technically speaking, you can argue late 1960s cuz some reporters like Jack Anderson were hinting on it. But in terms of public consciousness, not until the 70s.
24:20>> So did Orlando That was his name?
24:22>> Rolando.
24:23>> Rolando, did he have to Was this someone who ended up having to escape Cuba?
24:27>> No, and that's part of why people wonder about what was happening with the Castro situation. My father very smart man, my late father, may he rest in peace was very much like me when it came to Kennedy's assassination. I mean, all his heroes were killed. I was basically I'm basically spent my life investigating the people who killed his heroes, basically.
24:48Um and Kennedy number one of all in terms of what he was interested in. He long was on the Maybe it was the CIA, maybe it was the mafia front until he found out about Castro assassination plots.
24:59>> Mhm.
25:00>> And Rolando Cubela.
25:01And one of the things he always said to me was, "Are you kidding me? If this guy was really trying to kill Fidel Castro, that Castro would let him live?"
25:10>> That's right. That's what I'm wondering.
25:11>> No chance he would let him like go off on like home arrest or whatever it is.
25:15>> Yeah.
25:16>> Um >> There's no trial down there. Like like Like if you have a New York Times report come out in 1972 saying you may or may not have met with Kennedy's guy like to try to overthrow Castro, you never heard from again.
25:28>> Right. So, my father's theory, yes, this is exactly he besides would say, "This guy would be dead." And so, this is what I think. This is what my father thought happened. Um uh Castro was Kennedy was making overtures to Castro about the possibility of of uh normalizing relations. He was doing it very secretly.
25:49And Castro wouldn't have known whether or not to believe it.
25:53And he argues, my father argued that Castro used Cubela as a plant to try and feel out whether it was happening. And once he found out that he was really being backstabbed, quite literally in some respects, by the Kennedys, that he then turned someone like Lee Harvey Oswald on John Kennedy to kill him.
26:14And my father and I got along great.
26:16He's like hugely inspirational to everything I did in my life. The only thing, only thing we ever had consistently very loud arguments about, and they were loud. They were like, "Mom, like I can't go to bed loud. When are you guys going to shut up loud?" was over whether Castro was involved. And he My dad was the best or, you know, sort of defender of that proposition, but he couldn't answer one question for me.
26:44Cuz it would go back and forth really quickly like this. I would I would say Castro's uh inviting would be inviting sure destruction on his own island. It would be a suicide thing to go after Kennedy.
26:56In fact, that's a good reason we could talk about it why the case was covered up. My my my my my my dad would say, you need to go back and look at the Cuban Missile Crisis. Everybody looks at what Khrushchev and Kennedy were doing.
27:08Nobody pays attention to what Castro and Che were doing. And Castro and Che were damn near suicidal during the the Cuban Missile Crisis. Even though it was their island that would get wiped off 100% they were like, "Viva la res revolución!"
27:22Go, you know, don't you dare back down to the Americans kind of situation. And my if they're willing to you know, he was like, "And if they're And if they're He thought Kennedy was trying to kill him?"
27:32He might have said, "You know what? I'm going to die anyway."
27:35>> So, this is another place your dad may actually have a point. Like, we're talking about a raging sociopathic narcissist as Castro was. He did know they were trying to kill him a bunch.
27:44Bay of Pigs backfires on him. They try to blow him up with a cigar. They try to kill him through his hooker and all this different [ __ ] and they can't [ __ ] get him. He's feeling like John Gotti.
27:54He's the Teflon Don. Like, [ __ ] you, you can't do anything to me. I'm talking with the Soviets, too. I'm going to kill you now. It's I'm not saying I agree with your dad, but it's possible.
28:02>> And so, what I would go back to my dad with and I'd say, "Dad, look.
28:07Point well taken.
28:09Here's the problem.
28:11He's he's brazen, but he ain't stupid. He outlived multiple presidents who were trying to >> get rid of him one way or the other.
28:22>> And why would he gratuitously use someone who leads right to his door because Oswald had visited Mexico City and visited the Cuban consulate, was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, was much more pro-Castro at the end of his life on paper than he was pro-Soviet. So, why would you go ahead and use him when you have, and Castro did, this is goes to how how he was, thoroughly intro- infiltrated the Cuban exile community. He basically knew the Bay of Pigs was going to happen. He had all those guys infiltrated, turned.
28:56>> Yeah.
28:56>> He could have used an exile, shot Kennedy with an exile, and blamed the exiles. Why would he use somebody who literally showed up on his doorstep?
29:06And my father could never answer that one element of the question. Um and then I think also when you start to get down to the brass tacks, it's pretty clear to me, and I think to a lot of people, that the main objective of the Kennedy assassination was to frame Castro and get an invasion of Cuba.
29:22And that the because they did too good of a job of it, a whole other set of government officials were like, "We're not going to have World War over this thing.
29:35We're going to We're going to We're going to cover this up." And we actually have >> explain what you mean there?
29:39>> So, and I'll I'll use an example. So, we have the recorded conversations of Lyndon Johnson.
29:46We have what he's saying to people like Richard Russell, and we have a pretty good idea of what he said through proxy to to Earl Warren to get them to join the Warren Commission.
29:57And what he was saying was, "Look, there are some things here that look like they may lead to Castro or the Soviets.
30:07And if that gets out, we'll have a hundred million people dead within a you know, an hour.
30:14Are you You You don't want to join the Warren Commission? You don't want to have anything to do with this? You served in your country in multiple capacities. You need to be a patriot again. You need to join."
30:28And if you look at even internal documents, that was absolutely a factor.
30:33>> What if that was still Holy [ __ ] man.
30:36What if that was the plan all along?
30:38>> I don't think it was. So, so I'm with Peter Dale Scott. Peter Dale Scott's, God bless him, he's in his 90s. He's still fully functional, the all-time one of the lead lead researcher since 1963.
30:50>> Who is it? Peter Dale Scott?
30:52>> Professor Peter Dale Scott.
30:53>> up. Let's give him some love.
30:54>> Yes. Um and one of the nicest human beings you'll ever interact with.
30:58>> looking at this since it happened?
31:00>> Yes, and he's like like if you want to look at like >> Oh, you don't have a lot of time.
31:04>> high high I hope to wrong he had if you want to look at like high IQ people this guy has the most sophisticated understanding probably of like the meta fact I don't know if I always agree with it, but he basically was talking about deep state and really something he called deep politics.
31:22>> I'm looking at the book titles, Deep State Fire, Cocaine Politics, The American Deep State.
31:28What what's that one? The road to the road to 9/11? [laughter] >> And and he frames it all in this in this capacity of deep politics.
31:37And what Peter Dale Scott does is he talks about um basically the two conspiracies. The first conspiracy is the one that actually killed Kennedy. The second one is to cover it up.
31:47My father often would would talk similar types of things, too.
31:50>> That's what Joseph Scott Morgan says, too.
31:52>> Yes. It's and and again, like how do you get those doctors in the to Joseph Scott Morgan? How do you get the doctors in the in the in the lab to keep quiet?
32:02You tell them, "Okay, you want to you want to be, you know, Mr. Whistleblower Man and come out with the full autopsy report? Then you tell me where the nearest bomb shelter is because that's where you're going to have to go when this lands on the doors of the Soviets."
32:15Um and we don't have direct evidence of that, but we have a lot of evidence that it happened with that it was operational with a lot of people in their minds.
32:23>> to stay with this cuz you're blowing my mind with this cuz this is like now 60 chess. But we had so Joseph's been on my show a bunch. He's one of my favorite guys. He was on shortly after your episodes 170 and 171. And it was funny cuz you talk about you've been looking at these cases since you were 12, which is cool. He's the same way cuz he's from New Orleans. So, he he came here You went to school down there?
32:46>> Yeah, I went to Tulane.
32:47>> Oh, awesome. All right, so you're you know the neighborhood. But, he he came here with a [ __ ] binder for those episodes that was like yay thick.
32:55And he looked like he was about to spew his I I was worried he was going to tell me he was like dying of cancer or something [laughter] cuz it looked like a last testimony. And he just [ __ ] laid it out there for almost 4 and 1/2 hours. And his whole thing cuz for people who don't know, Joseph Scott Morgan is a medical death investigator legend, wrote the greatest book of all time on it. He's on every TV channel anytime someone's murdered, which sounds dark, but he's a great guy. And, you know, he basically laid out from the moment of the shot every single step that happened, everyone who was involved, took you into all the rooms,
33:29all the evidence we have of it. And it is [ __ ] sinister when you see how much the powerful people you're talking about, like Pentagon related, like the Curtis LeMays of the world, were basically, maybe for the reasons you're bringing up right now. This is why this is interesting to me and I'm bringing it up. Like, they were they were basically mafia donning all the people around it, starting with the doctors themselves conducting the autopsy.
33:54>> Yeah, they were telling them not to do very basic procedures.
33:57>> With a cigar in their mouth.
33:58>> Right, with a cigar. [laughter] And I mean, those guys shouldn't have been doing the autopsy.
34:03>> No.
34:03>> Like you like Cyril Wecht, late Cyril Wecht, uh I say he's on like the Mount Rushmore of I don't give a [ __ ] right? Um and I say that with with huge respect, right?
34:15Did He took on the American government in the Kennedy assassination, the NFL with concussions. He just did not give >> Yeah.
34:24>> But, he So, he was waiting in an airport and he was like president of like the like forensic pathology association of America. There were a lot of people like him ready to do it. It probably should have been done in Dallas. Dr. Rose was a very good pathologist.
34:42It gets done in in Bethesda Naval Hospital with the the two lead people had basically very little to no experience. The third guy was a wound ballistics guy.
34:54By the way, shows up for RFK.
34:57Yeah, that one I've never fully understood either. Um the team was um they really were and they were being told like, "Oh no, you're not going to dissect the wounds. You're not" Now, there's the problem with the Kennedy assassination, JFK, much more than any other crime I've ever investigated including MLK, including RFK, and by wide margin. And people always ask me, "Why haven't you written about a book about JFK? You've been on that like 20 long 20 years more." I'm like, "Because I can't make sense of all of it." And one of the big reasons why is there's like seven reasons on so many levels for there to be a cover-up where it's
35:37not consciousness of guilt.
35:40It is wanting to avoid World War III. It is uh wanting to protect uh sensitive operations. It is wanting to cover up your negligence and incompetence. It is wanting to cover up you maybe again, I've long thought that certain people who had information um we're talking more like the local level in New Orleans were gay and didn't want to have to tell you how they got that information, right? And because of all of that, you can't do what you do in other cases and say, "Well, this guy, you know, burnt his clothes.
36:17He must be guilty."
36:18>> Mhm.
36:19>> Right? Cuz the guy might be burning his clothes in this case the metaphorically because he doesn't want to start World War III.
36:27And especially if they think Kennedy kind of had it coming, then they would then they're they're not going to say we need to know the truth versus 100 million lives.
36:38>> The The biggest problem, and there's a point that needs to be made there, but even before we get there.
36:44The biggest problem with with Kennedy, like the case itself in looking at it, is [ __ ] everyone hated this guy.
36:50>> Correct.
36:51>> With perhaps with the exception of Khrushchev who might have only disliked him rather than hated him. Because at least he was talking to him. He's like, "Well, that's a [ __ ] change."
37:00Everyone else around the world was like, "Fuck this guy. We don't like him."
37:05People in the underworld criminal organizations, governments, you name it, our own government. You talk to the Cuban nationals who were in CIA. You talk to the like Danny talked to Felix Rodriguez down who's who's still alive, you know, long time CIA guy who was born in Cuba. They they view Kennedy as a traitor. They would [ __ ] which I think is ridiculous, by the way, but you know, they're Cubans and they're very very upset about Castro. I get it. And so they're upset about the Bay of Pigs. But the other thing you're saying, Stu, is you're talking about a potential 60 cover-up here to where they're like, "Oh
37:37my god, if it gets out that Cuba and by as a result the Soviets are involved, boom, World War II is happening and 100 million people die." My only issue with that theory is that we know for a fact, I cite this all the time on the show, that during this time period there were high-level people in the Pentagon and in CIA and in these various bureaucracies who legitimately would openly talk about the conflict with the Soviets in this way in that they would say things like, "Well, if they nuked us, we would lose 60, but then we'd hit them back and they'd lose 240 and we'd win by 180."
38:16They're talking about millions of lives.
38:18>> that. I say that all the time to people, too. I said that to my students when I taught history and modern American history, I used to point it out to them all the time when we did missile crisis.
38:27Like you we'd watch 13 days. I'm like you you think this is fiction? It's pretty close to the truth, folks. Curtis LeMay was freaking nuts.
38:36>> Out of his mind.
38:36>> Out of his freaking gourd.
38:39Um and JFK knew it. But now you got to divide things up, right? Um there are people who wanted the war, right? But there are also a lot of people who knew maybe that if you start opening up things on the Kennedy assassination and fact, I mean Curtis LeMay is on the list for people.
38:58>> Uh-huh.
38:58>> Right?
39:00That it could go back to them.
39:02Right? So it's convenient for them to potentially get a get in on the cover-up if they see it's falling apart in other places. In other words, if they wanted to if they wanted to get an invasion of Cuba and they see that the FBI is is with uh Lyndon Johnson on we got to avoid World War III and I think they very clearly were.
39:22You may not get your let's Cuba did it, let's invade Cuba outcome.
39:28What you might get if you if you don't shut things down is people starting to ask questions about what you were up to on November 22nd. By the way, Curtis LeMay, I I've heard four different things about what he was up to.
39:39>> you heard?
39:40>> He was on he was hunting in Canada, he was on a plane somewhere, he was actually at the autopsy.
39:46We can't pin it down with him. Now I don't know if he was involved. I'll tell you this, it's funny you mention that name. I probably shouldn't say I don't even know if I should Let's just put it this way.
39:58If there were amongst a handful of people and I don't know if they were involved that I could put under some machine and find out everything they knew, probably not just about this, about a lot of things.
40:08Felix Rodriguez would be on the very top of my list.
40:11>> I agree with you.
40:13>> He would be top three for me.
40:17And not just this, I'd have a 5-hour podcast of truth-telling with that guy if I could get him to if I could get him if I could dose him up with sodium pentothal.
40:26I mean, yeah. Uh >> Steve, [laughter] while we're talking here, can you by any chance pull up the Danny Jones-Felix Rodriguez sit-down from like a year and a half ago? He went to He had to go see him cuz he's very old now.
40:41But >> That's the reason why I was willing to say it.
40:44>> search the transcript for Kiki Camarena.
40:48>> Mhm.
40:48>> K I Kiki Camarena.
40:49>> Absolutely. That's one of the things I would ask him about.
40:52>> search that and then if you find that, >> [cough] >> we'll play it in a minute. But So, go to more on the description.
41:00And then go down a little more.
41:03A little more. See transcript? Then just do a find next. But yeah, so I don't the the issue I have with the cover-up being executed in the manner you're talking about where where they where they decide they're like, "Oh my god, we got to cover this up." And they basically make this calculation so fast is that the calculation was made so quickly. The decision to move his body and get it on the [ __ ] This is all happening in a span of hours, minutes if you will. How would they have known in an in an era when they didn't even have cell phones to text each other at the time to be able to all coordinate on this and be
41:39like, "Yo, bro, this what we doing, fam.
41:41That's it."
41:42>> Now, I agree with you that there are certain elements of the cover-up that are very difficult to explain from that from the perspective I'm saying. And I think there was a cover-up of by people who were involved in the crime.
41:55>> That one gets very interesting because a person who gets a lot of flak, very friendly guy, um he's written books about King and Kennedy assassination, but also Watergate.
42:05Um he gets into a lot of flak because he he basically argues that Carlos Marcello was basically the mastermind of every bad thing that ever happened from like 1963 to like 1976.
42:17>> Yeah.
42:17>> Um and he has stuff in his in his stuff.
42:19He has interviews for instance with the people that Bobby had those side back, you know, vest pocket operations with.
42:27>> Um he he presented a document which was very interesting.
42:32It was a document that was just broad and it was like, "What do we do if an American president gets assassinated in an a foreign country?"
42:39Right? And they're like, "We have to figure And they're like saying, "We have to figure out right away the mechanics of what happened in the event that it's something that ties to like a communist or foreign source.
42:51So, we have to get We have to control very quickly the body and the autopsy."
42:57And that's in documents. And that predated Kennedy assassination.
43:01That maybe what was happening was they were putting into motion something that they had anticipated would happen in a foreign country that happened in the United you know, in the United States.
43:15>> Ooh, it's a lot There's a lot to do with that there. There's also this is only This is just over 15 years, you know, 15, 20 years after the creation of CIA. And it's also in line with the Red Scare of the '50s having just happened that was continuing to the '60s, let's be honest.
43:34And all of these insane, now declassified and some cases or still covered up in other cases basically compartmentalized or not so compartmentalized projects that organizations like CIA were were doing at the time that are I mean, to say they're a violation of the every American principle would be putting it lightly. But, you know, who's to say that That's always been the main argument with this. Who's to say that those same people wouldn't have something like this all buttoned up and [ __ ] ready to go?
44:06>> They were It was right at the period when the CIA was maxed into the James Bond crap, right? Covert operations, we could get all this done, and had the least amount of oversight. And very famously, not talked about, but I'm pretty certain that that Talbot talks about this prominently in his book, um cuz it meant it involves Allen Dulles. Harry Truman, who was president when the CIA was invented, >> Yep.
44:34>> right after JFK dies, and they were close, right?
44:38>> Oh, they were close. I didn't know they were close.
44:40>> They were they were pretty close. Um Harry Truman writes a an op-ed basically saying the CIA needs to be disbanded or fundamentally reformed.
44:50>> Can we find that op-ed?
44:52>> Yeah.
44:54>> Harry Truman op-ed and I Dave has this, so we'll come back to this. Keep in camera or anything, but Harry Truman op-ed CIA Kennedy assassination.
45:03>> Now, he doesn't say it's because of the Kennedy assassination.
45:05>> Oh.
45:05>> But a lot of people a lot of people would assume >> Whoa. All right, this whoa.
45:11And Tulsi Gabbard put this out in 2023.
45:13>> Yeah, but that's >> not in the room anymore, but that's neither here nor there. So, >> But you're going to want to know what happened after he published that?
45:20>> Yeah, in a minute. Let me just get what this is, but it's it's also like kind of crazy that they've kicked her out of the room and she's like the one that's actually standing for some of the anti-war stuff, but that's neither here nor there. So, the Washington Post, December 22nd, 1963, Harry Truman writes uh they didn't even say president. Can Can you go back to the title?
45:39Uh right there.
45:41Harry Truman writes limit CIA role to intelligence, and then go to the next one.
45:46This is one cut out from it. For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has be- become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the government.
46:01This has led to trouble and may have compounded our difficulties in several explosive areas. I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations. Okay, go back for 1 second before you respond to this.
46:16Stu, go back to the the headline D. If I want to point this out.
46:21Is that So, the other one's a faded screenshot. Is that a little Is that a screenshot from when he wrote that?
46:28>> I think it is, but I'm not 100% >> Okay, cuz it looks awfully clean. I don't know if it is, but maybe people can help me out on this and maybe you can Google the the actual article D if to see if there's another source where we can see it. But if that's the case, Stu, this is obviously pre-internet time. There's [ __ ] three channels on TV. Look how they hid that headline.
46:48The headline should be all big font size 72 or size 144 President Harry Truman on CIA. Instead, they call him Harry Truman and they make it really small and make the title small and this is the same paper that's getting a lot of stories. Yeah, look.
47:05Look, there it is. His Look how small his name is right there.
47:08>> I'd be curious what page it was on.
47:09>> role to intel That's my next question.
47:12Limit CIA role to intelligence and then in size [ __ ] 11 font by Harry S.
47:17Truman. No, but that's the Washington Post back then. This This is programming. They're They're like, "Yo, we got a lot of sources in CIA. They're not going to like this. President's writing an op-ed. Well, let's all stick him on page B6 and put his name real small like that it seems like it's just some regular [ __ ] writing it." The [ __ ] former president of the United States a month after a guy gets whacked in D.C. while he's in sitting office.
47:38Like, holy [ __ ] >> let me let me let me give you two two two things about this that sometimes don't get Well, one gets definitely talked about. The other one, even here amazes me to say it out loud.
47:49It's 1963. We haven't had the Church Committee.
47:52We haven't had the 1967 revelations by people like Jack Anderson.
47:57We don't know. When I say we, like the American people, we don't know that the CIA is into all kinds of heavy cloak and dagger operations. Truman obviously does.
48:07Right? So, like it's amazing to me that he'd even come out with that when it's not something that's being looked into because in part because Congress is not doing nearly what you would hope they would do in terms of oversight cuz it that happens later.
48:25The second thing is who do you think paid a visit to Harry Truman right after he wrote that?
48:29>> Dulles.
48:30>> Correct.
48:30>> Come on.
48:31>> Nope.
48:31>> He wasn't even back yet, right?
48:33>> He was not in the CIA anymore.
48:35>> at all.
48:35>> Correct, and yet he visited. Um now, I want to be fair. [laughter] I mean, the CIA does do stuff we probably don't even know about that is probably advances the security of the United States, but at this time they were real sort of crazy type of situation because they were a black box. Even more so than they are now. They were a black box then.
49:00I mean, we were I wrote my we co-authored a book on that with Larry Hancock called Shadow War Warfare. And the and the issue with that we we kept on coming to is >> leaf.
49:11>> is it's whenever you look at these secret wars that the CIA fought a lot of at that time they're all kinds of screwed up either in the short term or the long term. They don't get looked at. Right? As to why That's why Larry wanted to write the book.
49:25Like somebody needs to explore why these things keep on getting screwed up because the government doesn't do it in a systematic way. We don't learn from it.
49:35Um and they were so high on their own supply from what they did in Guatemala in 1954 that they went nuts trying to do it all over the place. And of course, some people think the same exact people from Guatemala decided to bring it home in 1963.
49:51>> Refresh me 1954 Guatemala is [ __ ] a million years >> a guy named General Jacob Arbenz.
49:57>> Uh-huh.
49:57>> And that one it was masterful.
50:01>> Yeah, totally agree.
50:02>> All the elements of sci-ops and on the ground and covert and spying. That one worked really, really well.
50:11Those guys go on to handle Cuba and then Vietnam.
50:14>> Okay, so the Democrat Talbot wrote about this. They're so they [ __ ] did so many overthrows I'm always like, wait, what? I see.
50:21>> But a lot of them are also like overthrows where it was almost by accident. Some of them And the bigger thing is the overthrows, the problem with all these kinds of shadow wars is to make them work you often have to supply first off, pretty shady characters, right? But you have to supply them with equipment that no one on Earth >> Right.
50:45>> thinks some villager has access to. So you think you're like you go in with this pretense of being secret. But if some mountain man has a like a howitzer that ain't coming from anybody but the United States, right? You have to do all kinds of crazy things to try and hide that. You have to go through like back door people and you know, Libya, what we had several years ago, what happened in the in with the with the soldiers who died?
51:12Uh not virtually anybody asked the question as to why they went after a uh like a like a station many, many miles away from the the embassy because that station was was being used to funnel guns that supposedly were from the rebels that you could get off the street, but were from likely our own government and taking it out of Libya and sending it to the to rebel rebel groups in the Middle East. That's how you get the plausible deniability that you're actually arming uh [gasps] rebel groups in other countries. And maybe those are rebel groups we want to arm.
51:56Oftentimes though, they're rebel groups that you know >> turn into [ __ ] Al-Qaeda and [ __ ] like that.
52:01>> Al-Qaeda, drug dealers, all sorts of things, right?
52:05>> this is where my world view has just been warped a little bit. Cuz like even John Kiriakou when he was in here, he was talking about someone that he cannot by court order reveal who it is.
52:16I knew who it was though.
52:19Where he's like, you know, some of this stuff that he used to shut down and be like, "Nah, no way."
52:25Like there even before the Epstein files and stuff, he realized some of it's real. And one of them is the Trilateral Commission. This woman that he knows basically, I don't know how his relationship is with her today obviously, but knew her and had a good relationship at the time I guess or a functioning, you know, relationship. She went to this [ __ ] And when I asked him, it was very predictable answer if you followed this, but when I asked him, "What were they talking about?" He said, "Arms deals." These people that run in these groups that are from the technocracy, the banking, all the power
53:02groups in the world that kind of like are the actual holding the peasant marrionette on the string and all that.
53:08They fund they they use basically as best I can see it are they're partners with in in the the intelligence community and then who use the people that work for them, who are the [ __ ] politicians as we're seeing at this point, to funnel all these weapons between these places basically like a criminal does money laundering and involves money laundering too, but a criminal, you know, moves drug product through coffee beans and [ __ ] like that.
53:39>> So I was a wit on Shadow Warfare, My my colleague Larry Hancock, who I think some of the best books on the Kennedy assassination co-wrote the MLK stuff. Um >> [snorts] >> if you go to Shadow Warfare, and you have to understand it the difference between Larry and I is he's hyper-detailed.
53:57>> Yeah.
53:57>> And I'm trying to get it into a narrative that maybe may be more commercially not even commercially viable, but more people would want to read. That book is is hyper-detailed, and he goes into all of that.
54:08He goes into basically he's trying to show people how do we actually set up the apparatus over time, some of it evolves, he wants to show the evolution that you can even try to do regime change shadow wars type of things when you're you know, kind of trying to hide it from the world, especially during the Cold War, the non-aligned countries. You're trying to hide it from the American public. And and there are operational security issues.
54:36And he we it's like a process. Like there's like all kinds of like just basic like structures you have to have these like fake banks or legit banks that are sketchy to work with you, like BCCI. You have to have uh you have to have front companies to transport stuff. You often have to look the other way when it comes to things like drug money. Like you're not actually dealing it, but you go in expecting that the people you're dealing with have to fund themselves through other means. And you don't care, which is not good. And it's all like a little process, and it's evolved over time. But yes, it involves like
55:20all this infrastructure, and at some points very likely you're going to have to get people involved and [clears throat] and get them into some dirty business. And in fairness to those people, I don't know if we should be, but if in fairness they're being told that you're doing this for your country, you're doing this to help the world, you're doing this to save the world from communism, and they may legitimately believe it, and to some extent it may even be true. Like communism was terrible in a lot of places. It's just whether how far you're willing to go to compromise.
55:51>> The Trojan horse.
55:52>> Correct. How far are you willing to go to compromise your own values? How far are you willing to go to subvert and bypass constitutional norms and procedures, international law? How far are you willing to go to do that? Cuz once you open that that door, it opens up the possibility for all sorts of other shady things that aren't at all involved with saving the world from communism.
56:18>> Listen, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and the guy who owns the most paving companies is the [ __ ] devil himself.
56:25>> Yep.
56:26>> And so a lot of these people who may claim righteously so on the top 1% of what they're actually going to do. Hey, by the way, this place has, you know, an audit dictatorial communist regime that does whatever, which everyone could agree, all right, that's bad.
56:41The 99% below it that they're really going in there for, that's the evil. And that's where that's where the mask is off now. But can we actually pull back up, just so people have context, the the coup you mentioned?
56:53Stu, so this was the 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état that that I remember this.
56:58He does write about this in his in >> PBSuccess is what it was called.
57:01>> The democratically elected Guatemalan president Jacobo Arbenz was deposed in a coup d'état in 1954, marking the end of the Guatemalan Revolution. The coup installed the military dictatorship of Carlos Castillo Armas, the first in a series of US-backed authoritarian rulers in Guatemala. The coup was precipitated by CIA covert operation code name PBSuccess. The Guatemalan Revolution began in 1944 after a popular uprising toppled the military dictatorship of Jorge Ubico. Juan José Arévalo was was president in Guatemala's first democratic election. He introduced a minimum wage and near universal
57:35suffrage. Arévalo was succeeded in '51 by Arbenz, who instituted land reforms which granted property to landless peasants. The Guatemalan Revolution was disliked by the US federal government, which was predisposed during the Cold War to see it as a communist. This perception grew after Arbenz had been elected and formally legalized the Communist Guatemalan Party of Labor. The US government feared that Guatemala's example could inspire nationalists wanting social reform throughout Latin America. The United Fruit Company, whose highly profitable business had been That's always what it is. Had been
58:05affected by the softening of exploitative labor practices in Guatemala, engaged in an influential lobbying campaign to persuade the US to overthrow the Guatemalan government. US President Harry Truman authorized Operation PB Fortune to topple Arbenz in '52, which was a precursor to PB Success. And then Dwight D. Eisenhower I guess saw it through and his staff members John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles had significant links to the United Fruit Company. Who knew?
58:32>> [laughter] >> Who knew? Through through their old law career, they had They were the lawyers for the guys doing all the [ __ ] business down there.
58:40>> Yes. And and and And again, I want to say this particular operation part of the problem was it's early on in the history of the CIA.
58:49Uh this particular operation was actually really good. Like If you look at the other ones like if you look at what happened in Iran, like it was a bungled job that wound up that wound up working short term for the interest of the United States. Long term you get the Iranian Revolution in 1979 that we're still possibly going to war within a couple of weeks over.
59:10Um But the But this one was super well done and super effective. And by the way, if you and if you Mike Larry's I do more promotion of Larry's books than I do of the ones we co-wrote or my own.
59:25Um if you follow his books and I I had a lot to do with the research, you take the people involved in the 1954 operation and you follow those folks.
59:36You get to 1963, those there's a lot of folks there. I mean, some of them recruited new people who were younger later on. You get into that field including Felix Rodriguez eventually, right?
59:51Uh, you're in the territory of the people who again, if I had to put under truth serum, one my way, it's crazy. Last I checked, one is still alive at one >> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge huge help.
60:09And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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