0:01I mean, you talked about it, thinking about this in 0304, like, oh, the size of weaponry that they could now do on mass scale was scaring you. That's 20 years ago. Now, you're talking about an age of AI. You're talking about an age of [ __ ] microwave weapons and [ __ ] Like, >> the more I look around now, the more I am apprec I don't know if that's the right word, but you'll understand what I mean. the more I am appreciative of just how [ __ ] fragile society is and how many things like, you know, the number of ways we could end the world right now without even using the word nuclear.
0:32>> Yeah.
0:33>> Is scary.
0:34>> Yeah. Which is why I got into cyber security.
0:36>> Oo.
0:37>> But no, it's true. It's true. I mean, they make all these doom and gloom movies, but when you watch them, you're like, "Oh my god, that could really happen."
0:44>> Yeah.
0:44>> You know?
0:45>> Yeah.
0:45>> That's what's scary.
0:46>> Yeah. I mean, like they even if you look at like the alien stuff, they'll talk about, well, where'd they get that in the movies? What were they writing on? I don't know.
0:54>> It makes me want to be a prepper. I'll say that.
0:56>> Yes. Yes. There's a lot more of that going on. When I had Shawn in here, he was like, "You ready?" I'm like, "For what?" And he's like, "You got to go bag." I'm like, "Should I?
1:08>> Where's your water?" Yeah.
1:10>> And he's like He's like, "Oh my god."
1:12All right. We're going to make a list for you. And his I mean, it's no joke.
1:16I'm sure like he's and he's been ready.
1:17This is not like a year ago. This is like this dude's been thinking about this for a decade.
1:22>> So he's like if the world ends like that man, >> shout out to Sean. I I think you'll be good.
1:26>> Yeah, we're all going to his house.
1:28>> That's where I'm going. I wasn't invited, but >> I'm going to show up and cash my check.
1:32Be like, "Hey, you told me I could come down and visit.
1:34>> Remember me?
1:35>> I'm here."
1:35>> Yeah.
1:36>> Anyway, so we we got on this tangent though when we were going in between your tours. We got through the farm.
1:43What was going on there? You left the farm after 6 months. Is that Did you go directly to Mosul again after that?
1:50>> No, I I PCS to another location um in the US.
1:55>> PCS.
1:56>> Um I moved that on military orders. They moved me to another location for my new assignment. So I worked there and then I wasn't there very long before I went back.
2:06>> Okay. So now this time you're going back >> as a full-blown case officer.
2:11you have gone through the whole farm training and everything and now the way I understand it is if you explained this earlier and I got it right you're able to go out there and and based on what you're told they want to get and make decisions talk to anyone you want to >> pretty well to a degree >> okay >> there's a lot of mother may I um with hey I want to approach this person um the agency CIA we had to run things through them too even for >> oh you're running it through CIA Mhm. We were the redheaded stepchild.
2:44Yeah. We had to ask, "May we may we please?" And look, I love the agency. I love all my agency friends, but man, they stole some of my good leads. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
2:53>> Oh, no.
2:54>> Yeah. So, it gets old, you know, like I there was and this is not War Zone. This is like real real world um where I had a lead who how do I describe it?
3:06He had access to like a a a country of interest who was developing a nuclear weapons program and he had some access that was really cool and I found him and I developed him and it was going really good and then I got a cable from the agency saying stand down. I was actually going to go meet him in Prague.
3:28I was and it was a really cool hotel so I was really excited and uh agency's like nope sorry we're going to take this. Thank you. No, but you're the one who developed the relationship.
3:38>> Doesn't matter.
3:39>> But is that guy just going to like see someone else walk up and be like, "Yeah, okay. I'll deal with you." Like, >> I'm sure they had to bump they had a different approach, right? Maybe maybe >> that guy had a kid and they put him in cub scouts together or something. But yeah, they were like, "Thank you very much."
3:53>> Suddenly suddenly the kid needed a surgery, >> right?
3:56>> Something like that. Like, oh, look, he broke both of his legs.
3:59>> I know. We don't know how it happened.
4:00>> Yeah. [ __ ] >> Hey, hey, get the bat.
4:05So you're so sometimes they would steal stuff but when you were in the that one was not in the war zone as you said obviously you're meeting him in Prague but like when you're in the war zone in Mosul and you're doing the whole mother may I thing and then you go out you're doing it alone. So, I would imagine there's some details you obviously can't give because you don't want to give away like who sources were, but can you describe the first one you did alone on a broad level? Like what kinds of things they were into and maybe where you had to go get them?
4:39>> Yeah, I have a lot. Um, >> all right, let's go through the list.
4:42>> I'll tell you the first one, remember I had all those men telling me that I wasn't going to succeed and no one would talk to me. So that was in my head and the first meeting I had was a turnover.
4:52So the case officer that was running this person was supposed to do like a warm and friendly this is Shaunie, whatever my name was, you know, this is Shnie, she's so great. You're going to love her. Like talk me up. Yay. And then they're going to leave. And then I do that to the next person when I leave, right? Well, this dude did not do that.
5:09He was like, "Peace out, Shnie. Bye."
5:11It's happened to me twice, by the way, in my career, and it pissed me off both times. So, I'm sitting there staring at this person like, "Oh my god, they're not going to talk to me. That person, that outgoing co did not talk me up."
5:21Like, uh, but it was fine. We we got along fine. Um, and that op, this person had access to a computer network that terrorists were using basically that that ISIS before they were ISIS, all of those groups, they were using. And so on that op, we had to get in, we had to get access to that network. And so I was able to work with CIA and they helped outfit basically just a really special thumb drive, >> right? And this person just had to go into use any computer that was connected to that network, plug that in >> and then the intelligence community probably owns that for perpetuity.
6:03>> Stuff like that.
6:04>> Yeah, that's crazy. I That's a lot of good intelligence for sure.
6:07>> Yeah.
6:08>> Did you I mean, you said there were a lot there, so we can go through some of them, I'm sure. Like how long a list are we talking?
6:14>> How much time do you have?
6:15>> Like like like are we talking are we talk on on this second Mosul engagement?
6:19Are we talking like a hundred people?
6:21>> No. No.
6:22>> Okay. I was going to say that would seem like kind of high, but either way >> I would never sleep.
6:26>> It's not one or two.
6:27>> Yeah. No, there's a lot more.
6:29>> Okay.
6:29>> There's a lot more.
6:30>> So, did you ever lose a source?
6:35>> No. I don't know why I knocked on wood.
6:36I don't have sources now, but I'm still knocking on wood.
6:40>> I don't know. That was not a tell. That was not a tell.
6:43>> I don't I don't know about that.
6:45>> Weren't you say you work for Merc now?
6:47>> No. No. I own my own company.
6:49>> I know. But like you did some work for her.
6:51>> Yes.
6:51>> All right. Okay.
6:52>> He's watching my hands.
6:54>> Okay. All right. All right. But so you never lost Did you have close calls?
6:58>> No.
7:00>> No. I I was lucky.
7:01>> What What makes a good Because you know these people are agents, right? They're they're not they're not case officers.
7:08They're people that you recruit to say work for team America now as Jim would say.
7:13>> But you know what >> I would imagine a lot of them are like your first one where they're the reason you're getting them as a source is because they're constantly in what will now be an extremely dangerous environment for them because if they're caught they're their head's going to get chopped off this person, >> right? And probably and probably their whole family. What makes it what makes you say to yourself, "This person not only is a good source with information, but they're going to be all right because they can do they can do the job."
7:42>> I don't know that I ever was that confident with people because people change, right? You could wake up one day and think, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm scared. My next door neighbor just got beheaded.
7:54>> And that was the situation, right? It was there were literally bodies littering the streets constantly. It was really, really bad. And so for any of these people to have the balls to walk around some neighborhood, for some team of Americans, you know, I had to drive. I couldn't drive. I'm a woman. I don't blend in, you know, I'd wear a hijab in the back, but I'd have a driver and an interpreter and then I'd be sitting in the back. That's a group of Americans, right? So, we would do a surveillance detection route. We would go pick up that person at a predetermined location. we'd have safe signals and you know like
8:27>> you know if I've got to drive by or if you're late or all those things >> but that person is absolutely literally putting their life on the line just to get in that car with us.
8:36>> Right. And then we got to drop them off somewhere.
8:38>> Yeah.
8:39>> Right. Um so I was never fully confident that I could trust anybody and still to this day I probably have that problem, you know. Um that person could wake up and just decide I'm I'm done. But not even just the I mean that's that's that's an important point because you're constantly dealing with someone who they have to go do it and and and they're in the middle of it. Not to say your job isn't dangerous, but like they're literally living in it.
9:04>> But like also, >> you know, for the people that maybe aren't going to waffle or that's less your concern, they still have to be able to do it and you don't want to lose them, right? So, like if you have someone who's not maybe I'm just using hypothetical, they're not going to waffle. Like they're all about it.
9:21They're gung-ho. We want to do this, >> but you're like, "Oh [ __ ] they're going to make a terrible spy, >> right?" Cuz they think they're James Bond probably. Yeah. That's that's another extreme. Like you you want people you can control, which makes us sound super creepy, right?
9:35>> But we need to be able to control you.
9:37If I say do not display, I don't know, something in your window if X happens, you do not do that. And we're testing. We're constantly operationally testing.
9:50>> I need to Oh, yeah. I need to make sure you're actually following directions because if you're not, that's a big problem. That's going straight in the report. And we're going to assess, do we continue this relationship? It's that serious.
9:59>> Did you ever fire anybody?
10:01>> Oh, yeah.
10:01>> Like sources.
10:02>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
10:03>> All right. So, what was one you fired?
10:05>> Very nicely. Very nicely. Right.
10:07>> We don't want to work with you at CIA anymore. Thank you for coming. Fill out a survey on the way.
10:11>> It's me. Yeah.
10:15>> So, why'd you fire somebody?
10:17>> Well, one in particular um was just kind of trying to be nice.
10:23He he was very very smart. One of those people I described in the beginning. He was very very smart. He had incredible access. He was totally willing to play ball. Um, he did everything I asked him to do, but he started straying and like coming up with his own ideas.
10:42>> Number one, that's dangerous.
10:44>> Number two, and this is when um fishing emails and stuff were just kind of starting, I had a special email account just for him. And I started getting emails from his account that were not from him. Um things like, "Hey, I've traveled to Spain and someone stole my wallet and I need money." Like now everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah, we've seen that 25 times."
11:06>> But at the time I was like, "This dude doesn't travel to Spain." Like what what is this? You know, so that account had been compromised. To what degree, we don't know. So with some of his suitability issues and that I had to break up with him, >> terminate terminate, as we say.
11:21>> I know. But are you worried that they're going to be pissed off and suddenly >> No. No. Cuz you do it like you're nice.
11:26Like you do it nicely just like a breakup, right? You don't want the person you're breaking up with like hate you forever. Am I wrong? No, >> that's usually how it goes, though.
11:34>> Well, that's cuz people don't like being dumped. So, you're doing it where it's the benefit to them. The benefit to you is you're not going to die, right? We're going to keep you safe because you're not working with us anymore.
11:44>> Yeah. Okay. But that means, you know, you if you're paying them, that stops the payments and stuff, too.
11:50>> So, they can't be happy about that.
11:52>> Yeah. Yeah.
11:54>> Most of your sources are is it I mean, you said money is a huge influence. It's like, are you are you paying pretty much all of them?
12:02>> Yeah, you have to. You can't recruit someone if they won't take money.
12:05>> And that happened with the moola that I told you about.
12:08>> Oh, >> yeah. He wouldn't take money.
12:09>> One guy. We're going to get there.
12:11>> Yeah. Yeah.
12:11>> Coming up on that.
12:12>> Yeah.
12:12>> What are we in like 09 now in Mosul?
12:15>> Uh 06 0709. Yes. Second 09.
12:19>> So you're living like on the base, but you're going you still get walk-ins obviously, right?
12:24>> Yeah. They walk into the base through like that CI shop I was telling you and then that CIA shop would filter down, >> right?
12:31>> Yep.
12:32>> Wait, can when you say CIA shop, you you did mention that earlier. Is that like a So, it's like a cover store or something like that.
12:40>> Oh, no, no, sorry. The CI the counter intelligence officer basically he was hired to screen people who were walking in and to help with investigations. So, like there there are local nationals that work on bases. Everyone knows that, right? And so maybe if someone's something's not right, then he would investigate to make sure it's not really a bad guy trying to infiltrate and and blow up a dining facility or something like that.
13:04>> Like like the dude in '09 in in was that in Pakistan >> or was that again? Elbi, the Jordanian.
13:13>> That was in uh Afghanistan.
13:15>> That was in Afghanistan. It blew up all kinds of CIA officers and stuff.
13:20>> So that Yeah, cuz like I've seen it.
13:21I've read about it in books, you know, the walk-ins and then obviously we've seen it in some of the Hollywood movies, but that I'm always questioning a little more, but like some of the actual historical books, they'll talk about this and a lot of times it sounds like or sometimes I think they've just straight up said it like, "Oh, so and so actually literally walked into the embassy or walked into this." And I'm always thinking to myself, a lot of these guys though, like what if they got seen doing that? Yeah. You know, so when you say CIA shop, my head goes to like, you know, is there like a >> like a store,
13:52>> like a fabric store or something, and you walk in and order, >> come buy a scarf and tell us your secrets.
13:57>> Yeah. Like something like that. Like, did you guys have anything like that?
14:00>> No.
14:00>> So, it's literally there.
14:02>> Yeah.
14:02>> You get them in the back door or something.
14:04>> Yeah.
14:05>> Yeah.
14:05>> No, I'm kidding.
14:06>> I I do want to say though, you had asked about money and motivations, right?
14:10>> Yeah.
14:11>> I think I still think this is funny. It still tickles me. So after money in in Iraq and Afghanistan specifically, the number two and number three things I was asked for was Viagra and Johnny Walker Black Label. They were partying, man.
14:26>> What a combo, >> right?
14:27>> Yeah.
14:28>> I tal I You know what? There's some stuff I can't say on there. I talked with one guy off air who I had in here spent a lot of time in Afghanistan and some of the [ __ ] he told me.
14:37>> Yeah.
14:38>> About what they're into. I was like, "Oo, >> yeah.
14:40>> Okay. It's interesting intel for sure."
14:42Yep.
14:43>> So, they needed Viagra.
14:44>> Yes.
14:44>> And they thought you were like the Viagra lady, >> evidently. What can I give you? Here's my dispensary.
14:49>> You're just like opening up your sleeves. What do you want? What do you want?
14:53>> Pain pills. Viagra.
14:56>> Oh, you don't like Vagger? You like sealis? We've got that, too.
14:58>> We got that. We got you covered. It's >> blue or pink.
15:01>> It's from a gas station, too. You wouldn't know.
15:05>> So, how long was the second Mosul engagement?
15:09>> Six months also.
15:09>> All right. Now, this is like again, we're farther. We're farther along the line. So again, what's going to become ISIS is forming. It's getting >> worse than it was in ' 07.
15:19>> Yeah.
15:19>> So Mosul at this point, it's already like you said, like a dust bowl. It >> is bad, >> right?
15:27>> Cuz once ISIS was done with it in like 14 or 15, it was even worse.
15:31>> Yeah. Which makes me sad because there, if anyone's been there, there's like the Mosul Museum. They have incredible history and there's a big Assyrian um population and just the wing bull if anyone's ever seen that. Um it's a bull with like wings and I don't know they just have some really amazing history and there were places like I would like hop a helicopter and try to fly places to go beg for help and support and I remember on one flight we flew over these ruins that were just incredible.
16:01Yeah. Those are toppled. You know what I mean? Like all these cool things they just destroyed.
16:05>> Yeah. I had my my friend Matt Lacroy has been on the podcast a bunch. He's one of these ancient civilization historians and he goes deep. I mean, he goes like sometimes I'm like, "All right, slow down."
16:17>> But, you know, he he and I disagree on some stuff visav the Iraq war as it pertains to some of the history that was destroyed and stuff, but he makes a good point about how much ancient history exists in that region in particularly and how much of it >> is gone.
16:35>> It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. Just like in Syria. I mean, I'm so glad that I shakuried my way into Syria because I saw Palmira Tadmore. I saw these things again that ISIS has destroyed since.
16:48>> Yeah. And now like in in the wake of ISIS in all these different countries, there's these residual messes. Like when I had Joby in here recently, Jo, my Joby Warick who's been on 134 and 198 in here, but when I had him in, he was talking about how what what was the name of that drug, Allessie? Not tran.
17:11>> It's like uh the freaking um it's like E.
17:15>> Yeah, it's like ecstasy, but it's called something else.
17:18>> What the [ __ ] is it called?
17:20>> I forget. He was describing it like he was trying it all the time. Like, oh Joy. He's like, I I haven't tried this.
17:25I'm like, eh, >> my friend told me. My friend told me.
17:27>> Yeah, it doesn't sound like it. He's like, this is what people have said, but he was at the border of Syria, I guess, on the Israel side or something back in the fall, and it's basically turned into a narco state.
17:41>> Oh jeez. where they're just they're just bringing this [ __ ] at will ac I don't know if it was Israel I forget what border it was but one of the they're just bringing it at will across the border because the whole southern half of the state already like with Syria it's not even >> it's borders are on a map but it's not even theirs you know so it's like >> the the number of intelligence failures that can happen in a space like that I can't even imagine >> yeah it's pretty messy it's pretty messy and it's sad again seeing all that before when it was really cool and existed and there weren't terrorists and
18:14we could walk around and it was safe, reasonably safe.
18:18It's just heartbreaking. It's hard. I'm a big history buff. It's it's very heartbreaking for me.
18:23>> What is there any type of history you like better than others?
18:26>> Yeah, I told you I'm a nerd. I like political history.
18:29>> So, I am fascinated maybe maybe it's because of my past, but like I am fascinated with the psychology of like cult of personality. Ah.
18:37>> So, like I've got some old and I'm not a communist, but I have >> I say that because I'm scared to like hang these cuz people are going to be like, "She's a communist."
18:46>> Oh, the comments are just going to start flowing in now.
18:51>> I have I've collected um my dad got them for me actually in China. But these original posters from the cultural revolution in China. I have four. I have an original little red book from Mao Dong.
19:02>> Oh, wow. Um, I have whole um like the fighter helmet, like the leather fighter helmet, fighter pilot helmet with the goggles from Russia when it was Soviet Union. I've got rank like a full set of Russian rank, like just cool. I don't know. I just like political history.
19:21>> Um, that's cool.
19:21>> Yeah.
19:22>> What's wrong with that?
19:22>> I don't know. I don't know. But I think I'm not like your average girl.
19:27>> Definitely not. But that's okay. Like I'm I'm into that, too. I mean, I think, you know, especially now, I can't help but study when you look around the world at all the different world leaders and the back and forth we see like like the like the divide. It'll go from hard left to hard right and hard right back to hard left.
19:45>> It's impossible to not look at some of the patterns in history where >> different people, different types of situations, but same themes >> occurring. That's a little scary for me.
19:56>> Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And you look at what has happened with like pole pot in Cambodia or even the cultural revolution in China. Like millions of people were killed. Families were turning against each other, friends against each other. Like it just blows my mind that that's possible.
20:10>> Yeah.
20:10>> So that's why I'm so interested in it.
20:12>> I mean Xi Jinping's origin story is insane. I mean I I try, you know, >> I want to be clear. I don't have empathy for terrorists and stuff like that, but I want to when I see like a hardcore dictator, a hardcore terrorist, I do try to understand from my piece of the pie here, whatever that is >> to say like to figure out how did they get there?
20:35>> Cuz how can how can we figure out one less of them in the next generation, right? And you see Xihinping like the shortened story, his father was in the Communist Party, pissed off the Communist Party with something, >> right? He got kicked out. And then Xi Jinping, who was like five or six, was forced to wear a sign in the middle of town that basically said, "My father is a traitor to the Communist Party. I'm scum." And his mom had to walk by and I believe spit on him >> at one point. And so this guy who, you know, he is a very smart guy. I have to give him that, you know, bad guy but smart guy. His whole life was like, "Oh,
21:14I'll [ __ ] show you."
21:15>> Yeah.
21:15>> Oh, oh, oh, you're going to spit on me.
21:17You're going to make my mom spit on me.
21:18I'll I'll be in charge of this [ __ ] And that's how the sociopath is born.
21:23>> Yeah. People's people's childhood shapes them so much into adulthood. I mean, if you look at um Bruce Ivans, for example, >> Bruce Ivans was the suspected anthrax letter guy, right? He committed suicide.
21:37There's a book um I think it's called Mirage Man. It's a fabulous book. I highly recommend it. It's so well written. I'm an insider threat like I don't know expert devote what I love all things insider threat. I used to recruit the insiders >> but reading his story shows you all the red flags from childhood like the abuse that he suffered from his parents on this. Yeah. Yeah. So he he had just really horribly abusive parents. Um he went through as he was younger and went into college. I mean, he had all kinds of other issues, but went into college and started like stalking sorority girls. Broke into the sorority house,
22:12stole their little I don't know, like little sority bible thing. I don't know what you call it.
22:16>> I was clearly not in a sorority. Um, stole that. Uh, harassed and stalked other women throughout his career. When the anthrax letters were sent, he was initially they were like, "What about this guy?" And he he was dismissed as this like bumbling weird >> Yeah.
22:33>> bumbling weird dude. But then he goes to the FBI, he's like asking questions like, "Let me help. I want to help with the investigation." But they're investigating him. Like just these crazy history, right? And so when you look at someone, it's called the critical pathway. Um Drs. Eric Shaw and Laura Sers wrote this back in 2015, but basically you have personal predispositions. So whatever his were, what I mean, we all have them.
22:56Narcissism, by the way, is like highest risk for insider threat. Um, so personal predispositions doesn't mean you're a bad guy yet. But then you add in stressors, personal, professional, external, financial, right? Business, maybe you're not getting promoted, maybe you got a divorce, all those things.
23:12When you compound the predispositions with the stressors, that's when you start to see someone's pattern of behavior change, those red flags, right?
23:19Yeah.
23:19>> And that Bruce I red flag, red flag, red flag, and nobody caught on to it. He even had therapists, psychiatrists try to report him to the army for having all kinds of issues and they were ignored.
23:32Right.
23:33>> Yeah.
23:33>> So if no one intervenes, if there's no investigation, if there's no intervention of any kind, that person's essentially allowed to walk down that critical pathway until they conduct a malicious act, which is what he did.
23:44>> Yeah. No, it's I I haven't critical pathway.
23:46>> Critical pathway.
23:47>> That's interesting.
23:48>> Sean Sers.
23:49>> Yeah. It it's funny you said there there was a documentary on Netflix I watched a few months ago that was on Bruce Ivans and the anthrax thing and I was thinking about getting someone in here >> for that cuz that's like a forgotten little >> Yeah. But it was such an interesting case.
24:03>> Yeah.
24:04>> Yeah. And and there's still some as much as he clearly was a weird guy, there's still some question like wasn't him or wasn't like he was a weirdo but like there's there's an open door there if you will. But he was like taking the anthrax sample like he had it read the book if anyone's bored. Read the book.
24:24It's so so good.
24:25>> I got to check that out.
24:26>> Mirage man.
24:26>> It see it personally it seemed to me like he did it. That was just >> I I'd agree.
24:31>> Right. Yeah.
24:33>> But I I had gotten into this cuz we were talking about how [ __ ] up Syria was in in the southern part of it and how open that is. And you had mentioned earlier, this is something that has come up on several podcasts I've done at this point, but I always like to talk about it. You had mentioned you spent some time with the Peshmerga, >> the the Kurds.
24:51>> They're so fascinating to me. People have heard me say this before on podcast, but I'll never stop saying it.
24:56>> It's a group of like 35 million people or something like that.
24:58>> The Kurds >> don't have a country.
25:00>> Yeah. But they do because like they if we go to a map >> Kurdistan >> they don't but they have Kurdistan where essentially northern Iraq southern Syria and that whole car land >> the Peshmerga runs and as it's like they don't as far as I know they don't even pay taxes to Syria or Iraq or whatever.
25:21>> They had their own intelligence unit too the >> Yeah. So what what the hell is going on there? All I know is like when I was in Mosul and I had source meetings or we were doing area familiarization up in Kurdistan, there was a line, an invisible line, and when we crossed it, everyone went, "Okay." Yeah. Um, this is funny. So I I did a lot of work up in Kurdistan and um I had I had a lot of sources there and I mean I could tell you a lot of stories but my second tour when I found out when I landed in Mosul I found out I that they weren't doing anything in Kurdistan that the people that were in my office at the time and I
26:00was like why? And they're like oh we just we don't know it. I was like I will take everyone on on a trip. I'm going to teach you all about lay of the land where you can meet everything. So we went up and we did this this mission where everyone went up and and we explored. We went to like the Dhook Zoo and stuff like that which is very depressing. Um >> why is the zoo depressing?
26:18>> Oh my god, it was the most depressing.
26:19>> Cuz they're like locked in tight.
26:21>> It's like abused abandoned animals like monkeys with cigarettes.
26:27>> You know what I mean? Like they've got like a a dog with like a lot of hair and they say it's a lion. Like you're just like these poor animals.
26:35>> I'm not I feel bad for the animal.
26:37That's kind of funny.
26:40>> I'm sorry. All right, go ahead.
26:41>> I think the snake was dead. Um, so, so we drive up, we pass the last checkpoint for Mosul and we're now into Kurdistan and there's like a big thing over the over the road, you know, with the Kurdish flag and blah blah blah. And we drive in and we were had driven in.
26:58We were in less than five minutes just driving north.
27:02>> Mhm.
27:03>> And my interpreter gets a phone call and he looks at me like, "Oh my god." and he just kind of stares at me and I was like, "What? What is it?" And he goes, "They know you're here. They want you to come meet them." So the Kurds have intel tight at every checkpoint. They have all kinds of plain clothes people that are reporting back. So as soon as this, you know, non blending in redhead chick drives through, they knew who I was.
27:29>> And then they called the people that I used to meet with who called my interpreter and said, "Hey, come on.
27:34Come say hi."
27:35>> Whoa.
27:35>> Within less than five minutes.
27:37>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll hear a lot of special forces guys talk about the Peshmerga like and you know they're they're not just these guys aren't just going to say like they'll tell you if someone sucks. They're like, "Dude, no."
27:47>> Yeah.
27:48>> No, we'll be in a foxhole with them any day.
27:50>> Oh, absolutely. That's the Kurdish flag by the way.
27:52>> Yeah.
27:53>> Shauna Bashana. Shouldertosh shoulder. I created a coin even for them.
27:57>> Yeah.
27:58>> Yeah. See, look at the look at where it is. Yeah.
28:00>> It's like so that east >> I had it wrong on the Syrian map, people. I'm sorry. I always think of this wrong in my head, but you can see I had it right with Iraq. Like they have that whole north area of Iraq. They got the east part of Syria. And geographically there's all kinds of like ranging mountains and prairies there, right?
28:17>> Yes. Yes.
28:18>> Okay.
28:18>> Yeah.
28:19>> And then they go all the way up. And this is why like Turkey has a problem, right? Because they're on their territory at some point.
28:25>> And there's different factions of the Kurds, too. So there's more militarized factions and nicer, more gentler factions and things like that. So that the people in Turkey are dealing with kind of a more militarized faction if you will.
28:39>> Yeah.
28:40>> Yeah. So I mean the whole region I don't know it it it is very interesting especially like see you can see they go into Iran.
28:48>> Um there when I was when I was there that second time there were a couple hikers I think there were two maybe three idiots hikers who were hiking through Kurdistan and hiked into Iran.
28:58>> Oh no.
28:59>> Right there. Yeah. and then obviously got captured.
29:02>> But it's Kurdistan that's in Iran.
29:05>> Yeah. Like Kurdistan as you see like >> meaning they're okay when you're on Kurdistan.
29:11>> Yeah. They just walk.
29:13>> But like you said, it's like mountainous and >> so that's why the security doesn't come up and like >> it's beautiful people up.
29:19>> Yeah.
29:20>> You you would just never think like Iran would let would let that happen.
29:23>> No.
29:24>> But walk right in. My my friend Eric Zoliger, who was on episodes 163 and 164, he claims he's not a spy, but I don't know about that. But he he was on a train in Turkey going through Turkey.
29:38And >> his whole thing is he's lived in all these unrecognized territories. Like he at one point ended up got on a jet ski with a random dude and became the ambassador from Liberland to Somali land.
29:49>> Oh.
29:50>> Which Yeah. I mean again >> I mean that makes sense.
29:53>> Definitely a spy. But like he was on a train through Turkey and he got banned from Turkey for life cuz when they when they went to take his ticket they asked him where he was from and he said Kurdistan.
30:02>> Oh no.
30:03>> They're like Sarah come with.
30:07>> They're like that's not the country.
30:09>> Wrong answer.
30:09>> He's like he's like wait but I was just there and they're like you can't come here again.
30:14>> He's like banned.
30:15>> And I'm like I feel like I feel like there's more there probably a little bit.
30:18>> I feel like I feel like they had some info on you or something like >> I don't know about this guy.
30:22>> Oh that's funny. But it's just so strange that something like that today >> exists because there aren't >> there's no groups that large around the world who don't have a country. There's no groups of like 35 million people.
30:35>> That's a good point.
30:36>> Who don't have a country?
30:37>> Yeah.
30:37>> But they do.
30:38>> Yeah. In a way.
30:39>> Yeah.
30:40>> I mean, they've got their own flag.
30:41They've got their own >> boundaries marked out.
30:44>> You know, when you're entering Kurdistan, >> why does the US not I mean, you know, we're supposed to be like the big swinging dick. We use them as an asset in [ __ ] everything we do.
30:54>> We absolutely. Yeah.
30:55>> So why doesn't >> What's the whole hold up with going to the UN like, "All right, come on."
31:00>> I don't know. I'm sure it's probably low on the priority list for what we're dealing with.
31:05>> But I would think it's I'm not going to say it's at the top of the list, but I would think it's not at the lowest because again, these people are being used in active absolutely >> military. Yes.
31:14>> You know what I mean? Like throw them a bone.
31:16>> I know. I know. And there's so much history there, too.
31:19>> Yeah. I got to get a Kurdistan historian in here.
31:21>> Yeah, >> something I've been meaning to do.
31:23>> You totally should.
31:24>> I Allessie, we got to remind me. We got to scout some people on that.
31:27>> Yeah, >> I haven't done that.
31:28>> But anyway, so you were in Mosul 2009.
31:34>> Mhm.
31:35>> And then any other cool stories sources in Mosul in 09?
31:40>> Yes, I'm sure. No, I I don't know. I don't know. No, you can move on.
31:43>> No, no, no, no, no. I I need one or two.
31:46>> Um, okay.
31:49Do you know who Muhammad? Let me see if I remember his name right.
31:55Muhammad is it is Alduri? Can you Google the um the playing cards? I think he was the aces. No, he was one of the top playing cards. Remember when we issued those playing cards um in the war for people that we wanted to capture? Like Saddam Hussein was ace of spades or whatever.
32:15Alduri was one of them.
32:18>> One of the >> Okay, so Muhammad Hamza Zerandi.
32:23>> No, not him. We want Alduri.
32:25>> Is there a way we can do all Muhammad the playing cards? Iraq.
32:30>> Alduri. Dur.
32:32>> Dur. Yeah.
32:33>> All right, let's try this. Oh, wait.
32:36There's a picture of all the ones. See the fifth one?
32:39>> This one right here.
32:40>> Well, actually, stay on this. Can we see that?
32:42>> I feel really old.
32:43>> I assume that. No, that's really small.
32:45Don't worry about it.
32:45>> Well, so as you look for him, I had a a source who was not recruited um who had him who knew him.
32:56>> He was one of the top >> Oh, there we go. Okay, >> that's a pretty >> Saddam Hussein, his son. Uh >> Muhammad, >> it's all the way to the left.
33:06>> That is it.
33:07>> Is that Ibrahim Alder? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
33:10So, King of Clubs.
33:12>> So, him. Um, so I had a source who knew him, had him uh talked to him regularly, and we were trying to capture him. Actually, I've never told the story. And, uh, I tried to get permission to like pass it to the special forces guys that we were working with to see if they could go, but he was in Syria. They're like, "Nope, we can't."
33:37>> Um, and DIA just kept shutting it down, shutting it down. And I was like, "But look, like requirement, like playing card, like big deal." And I just got shot down, shot down, shot down. And um I ended up just very quietly passing it over to some another unit to see if they could just action it themselves because DI wouldn't do it. So that was kind of a bummer.
33:57>> Did they action it themselves?
33:58>> I don't know. I don't know.
34:00>> What was his role again? RCC vice chairman. What's the RCC?
34:05>> I don't know.
34:06>> I'm going to guess that's Republic of something, but I don't know. I have no idea.
34:10>> I don't remember. I just remember >> SSO and R RCC.
34:15>> Yeah, that was kind of a bummer.
34:16>> Yeah, it says like Kamal Mustafa Abdales Sultan Alt Tranidi. It says Secretary of the Republican Guard and Special Republican Guard. So, I wonder if that I mean he looks he looks serious. He's wearing a beret.
34:29>> Oh, yeah. I mean, berets make everybody more >> Yeah. more tough for sure.
34:33>> Yeah.
34:35>> It's got to be frustrating though when you have a fish right on the hook and they say, "Throw it back." It was super super frustrating. Yeah. And I I even tried to get permission to like pass it to agency and like all the and I don't know what was going on back home but people were like nope no. It was like a hard no. So here you go. Someone else please go take it.
34:54>> I wonder if maybe that guy was a source double agent.
35:00>> I don't know. Don't know. I I will never know.
35:04>> Yeah.
35:04>> Yeah. Did you I mean cuz you're there when we're knocking out all the former regime and everything, but was there ever a thought in your head like yeah, we're taking out bad guys for sure. No one's arguing that was a bad guy. These guys are bad dudes, >> but like the people who are going to replace them are as bad and might be even worse.
35:25>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like the saying like you cut off the head of the serpent and a bunch more grow back. Y >> Absolutely.
35:30>> It's got to be frustrating.
35:32>> Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's a lot in Intel in general. A lot of it is very frustrating, especially like you, like I said, like you throw on the layer of politics and you throw like all there's just so many moving pieces that you have no control over. Yes.
35:44>> That for a type A person, it's very frustrating.
35:47>> Oh, yeah. I mean, I I got to think that during this era, you're there when the experiment is going the wrong way, right? The insurgency, as we've highlighted all day today, is growing into what will become ISIS. I guess you got out right when ISIS was popping off, right? Okay.
36:05>> So, you know, also we're going to get to Afghanistan in a minute. Afghanistan, it's like I talk about this all the time with people on the podcast. It's like unbelievable military operation for the first year, year and a half. Then we went to Iraq. To borrow Obama's line, I think he said this very well. Took our eye off the ball there.
36:23>> We see how that ends up and everything because you start fighting two, one and a half wars in a way if you really want to say it with with the resources. But it's like, you know, you're knocking people out at a time where [ __ ] is getting way worse. And the United States is there to quote unquote spread democracy. And this is where my question is. I've had other people in here, Andrew Bamonte comes to mind talking about this with the with the idea where they talk about the idea of like how spreading democracy in certain places doesn't work. But the alternative is you have some sort of totalitarian
37:01rule which in America we don't like hearing that or whatever. But do you think that you know maybe with like collegi culture there's a reality that some countries they just are going to turn to that and so maybe it's better to have the strong man with an arm that's not holding a machine gun versus you know the one that is and it's the best of two evils.
37:21>> Yeah. I mean it makes sense right? You you could come up with any analogy dating right? There are going to be people that are not going to be a good fit. They're not going to like you, right? It's the same thing like we we value democracy. That's not going to be a good fit everywhere. It's just not. So sometimes the lesser of two evils is what we have to go with. That's your point.
37:43>> Yeah. I mean, you hear guys talk about like being there for the first election in Iraq and how, you know, people were like holding I think it was like the pink sticker or whatever and were so excited for it. It's not like there's not an appetite for that among some people, but there's just factions that will turn to, you know, this is what we know.
38:00>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at any country that looks like it's on the verge of revolution. Or look at the Arab Spring.
38:05>> Yeah.
38:05>> Right. Look at Iran. Look what's been going on there. How you've got these population probably North Korea and China too. Like you've got these populations, especially of the younger generation who know or suspect what's out in the world, right? Maybe they have social media lockdown, maybe they don't have free access to internet, etc. But information gets there somehow. And you can see that they have an appetite for change, but it hasn't happened yet in any of these places, right? They've tried, but I think culturally sometimes I don't know, you're just fighting history, generations of history.
38:44>> That's a good way to put it, right?
38:45That's a really good That's a really good way to put it because it's like in America our history is like 250 years.
38:50>> I know we got ours is like this big.
38:52>> We're missing a zero on the end or like two zeros.
38:55>> Yeah. With some of these places and it's like oh you're just going to go in and change it. It's >> it is it's not just ingrained in culture. It's almost >> I you know scientists are going to yell at me for saying this because this isn't technically true, but in a way it's literally like in the DNA >> in some ways. It's just that's what's known.
39:15>> It's a lot of it also learned behavior.
39:17Like if that's all you see, just like those poor kids I was talking about.
39:20>> Yep.
39:20>> If that's all you see and all you know, that's your culture. That's that's what your normal is. And if someone comes in and says, "Change it."
39:28>> It's just like going into a company, right? I go into a company and I'm like, "Okay, we need to change this, this, and this." It's not that easy.
39:35>> You have a culture to deal with. No matter who you're talk, if it's a country or a company, it's the same thing. You have a culture. my family, we have our own little culture, right? Our own traditions. It's all the same thing just on a much bigger scale.
39:47>> Right. You talked about those kids. You gave that visual 20, 30 minutes ago that the kids that would line up >> walk by and you're like >> all they know is war.
39:56>> Yeah. Again, not to empathize with the terrorists or something, but to understand like, isn't it easy to see how some of these kids, you know, their whole childhood is filled with US armed forces knocking down their door and checking everyone? Isn't it easy to see how they turn to terrorism?
40:16>> Yeah. I mean, hearts and minds is a real thing.
40:18>> Y, >> there's a reason you want to win hearts and minds.
40:22>> We could do better. Again, we could do better. What do you think held us back from doing that?
40:28>> Politics, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, >> look, if you have an a pot of money and you need to put it, you've got a war, two wars, are you going to put your pot of money in hearts and minds or are you going to put it in trying to kill the bad guys and try to get the war over with faster? When you look at the priorities, it's just not high on the priority list. Should it be? Yes, absolutely. But how do you go about doing that, right? and not be just a cost center.
40:56>> Yeah.
40:57>> Right. It's hard to prove the ROI of something like that.
41:00>> Hey, we're gonna we're gonna be cool to these kids and they're not going to blow us up when they grow up. How do you prove that?
41:05>> Yep.
41:06>> You know, but I I actually I had a source meeting. This is fast forwarding to Afghanistan, >> 2011.
41:12>> Yeah. Yeah.
41:13I had this source meeting um with um somebody uh pretty well known and they had children and one of their children was a teenager and this kid came in and we were chatting just bullshitting and I will never forget she was telling a story about she was going somewhere and she said in like her best valley girl accent I don't know how she got a valley girl accent But she was like, "Oh my god." And then there was a rocket attack and I was like, "H, not today." But the way she said it was so like nonchalant. It was her norm.
41:52>> Yeah.
41:53>> And it just hit me so hard, you know?
41:56>> It's just so annoying. Like >> another rocket attack, >> right?
42:01>> And for me, I'm like, "Right." I'm like, "I can't sleep when there's a rocket attack." And you're just annoyed.
42:07>> Yeah. That's all she knew.
42:09>> Well, that's the thing. That's the environment you grow up in. and it becomes a norm. Death becomes something that's more I mean I hate to say it like this. It's more of a commodity around you.
42:19>> That's a horrible way to put it, but >> you know like us that's a luxury we have. We get to live in the luxury of like someone dies from something tragic. It's the worst thing ever. And statistically it's happening something tragic is happening as a normal thing >> right >> every day in places like that. Yeah, I I feel like for me like the hearts and minds thing is really big. Um every deployment that I had, I would find a local um orphanage.
42:53>> And well maybe I had secretly tried to adopt a kid um that Denver worked in Afghanistan. I had a source a really high ranking somebody say like I can get you a kid if you want. I was like no no not illegally. I'm good.
43:06Um, but I would always find an orphanage and then I would have people from home send I would ask them what they needed and we would send like vans full of stuff to them.
43:15>> And then when I worked with sources, I really when I had the opportunity to spend time with their families, excuse me, I spent as much time as I could with those kids and with those families. And um if I could leave an imprint, a positive imprint somehow of what being an American or working with Americans was, I really tried to do that. So there's the mission, right? And I wanted to de debrief the person and and teach them tradecraftraft and do whatever I needed to do for that op. But on the same hand, like I I just loved spending time with their families and their kids.
43:53There was one gentleman who um he had a bunch of kids and he kept every time I met with him he would say like they loved art and they just really loved art but they didn't have money and blah blah blah and he just kind of he wasn't asking for anything he was just in conversation and so one time I ordered a whole bunch of art supplies from Amazon had it delivered and in one meeting I gave him a ton a ton of art supplies and it wasn't anything that was going to like ID him or What? Like the way I did it was smart. People can be quiet and I'm not I wasn't going to kill him.
44:26Anyway, so I gave him >> these two boxes of like art supplies, but again, local art supplies. It wasn't from America. Anyway, he cried, which made me cry >> because he was so excited how his kids were going to like receive it.
44:43>> And then the next time he came, he brought and I still have it. He brought me, they had made me a book of art that they drew for me with all the art supplies that I had given them. And it's like one of my most treasured things because it's those memories and touching those people, those little people who are now big people, right? That I just hope that I could influence somehow.
45:06>> It comes across when I was talking to you off camera before doing this and in talking to you today. I don't say this as a shot to other spies I've had in here or whatever, but like it's a dangerous job and there's and there's highest stakes and there's things to be done and that involves manipulation, coercion, all this stuff. It's not to say you didn't still have to do some of that in your job. I get that.
45:27>> But like it's very clear to me that you have the gene of like genuinely gives a [ __ ] >> Yeah.
45:36And that's not really like and and I'll I'll put it like like Andrew Bamante who's a friend of mine and you know says he's former CIA.
45:46>> Andy's there to do the job.
45:48>> Yeah.
45:49>> I'm not saying Andy doesn't feel it if like some kids die and stuff, but Andy is very much like world's a shitty place. You seem to be much more of in in your role of an empath and feeling everything that happens around you. And I would imagine that just like he has skills that played well for him to be able to get people into his orbit, it's very clear these skills played well to people, they they they wanted you around. They wanted you like a member of the family in some of these cases.
46:18>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Without a doubt.
46:19Yeah. And you mentioned empathy. Empathy and respect are two of the keys to building trust, >> right? If you feel trust, your brain is releasing oxytocin, that feel-good chemical, right? So, if I can tap into that and make you trust me, like I'm not going to screw you over, but if I can make you trust me, we're building that rapport, we're building that trust, we're building that friendship that much faster. So, that relationship will be that much stronger.
46:47>> So, when I tell you do this or don't do this, you will listen because I have your best interest at heart and your kids and they can see it.
46:56It's interesting like reading your psychology with it all too because I I mean that's what I do in my job with anyone who's in here. But it's doubly fascinating when people were operating at like the highest levels of national security >> and it's like again juxtaposing you and Andy >> like you talked about you grew up >> you didn't fit in. You didn't have any friends or whatever.
47:15>> You wanted friends though.
47:16>> Yes.
47:17>> Right. And you got really good at making friends like you were a late bloomer when and then it was as a part of your career cuz you started so young. You made friends with everyone. Andy didn't have many friends. Had a really difficult time as a child and everything. Had a seinal event that really ended up [ __ ] him over and everything.
47:36>> And then he became the opposite. He's the [ __ ] that. I don't need friends.
47:41>> Mhm.
47:42>> I got I got my wife.
47:44>> I got my kids.
47:44>> That's all he needs.
47:45>> And it's like honestly he's got like me and Danny Jones, right? Because like I guess we understand him in a way. But it's interesting to see how you guys did similar jobs in different ways >> from a similar origin story but had the opposite reaction to the origin story to do the job in the opposite way. That's just really >> Yeah.
48:07>> I'm just I mean I didn't know that before I was talking with you. So I'm just like kind of live processing that.
48:12>> It's like a therapy session.
48:13>> Yeah, a little bit.
48:13>> Um Yeah. Do you have a couch I can lay on?
48:18>> No. I I literally don't own the couch as you can tell.
48:21>> I know. What's with the Where's your furniture?
48:23>> Listen, the money goes to him. That's what I do. I gota I got mouths to feed here, you know. Listen, don't say I don't put it all into my business.
48:31>> It's true. But like you you mentioned like I was a very lonely kid growing up.
48:36I I was very very lonely as well. The job with DIA, I was very lonely. And now I'm a single mom of three. I'm very lonely. like my I am constantly still very very lonely. Um but I think I've just kind of figured out how to embrace it and I don't want other people to feel that way.
48:57>> So yeah, to your point like empathy is my my biggest demise. It's going to kill me one day.
49:02>> Yeah. No, you'll be all right. I think you're hanging around.
49:05>> But you you mentioned obviously several times now that it was 2011 when you went into Afghanistan. So you finished the 6 months in Mosul in 2009, 2010. You come back to America. Is a similar type middle between?
49:19>> I mean, you went to the farm after the first one. This time you're not going to the farm, but you're working the desk in America.
49:25>> Sort of. Yeah. No, this time when I came back, I was um operational.
49:30>> So, I was doing clandestine operations in other places. So, not War Zone, like real world type stuff.
49:37>> Are you allowed to talk about that at all?
49:38>> Not really.
49:39>> Okay, fair enough. So, you get the assignment to go to Afghanistan now.
49:45We kind of talked about this broadly, but this is when we're coming up on 10 years in to this war. We're like nine years in probably when you're going.
49:56>> We still don't have Osama bin Laden.
49:58>> Mhm.
49:59>> Again, it started off very well, but then took the eye off the ball and now like when I've talked to people who were in Afghanistan in the late 2000s going into 2010, 2011, it's like you could start to see the the shift happening.
50:13Yep.
50:14>> Before you went, did you already kind of did you have information that that's where it's going?
50:19>> Yeah, because um I had been working the Afghan desk as well, had time there, so I could see it from the desk point of view, too. But you could also see like priority shifting with requirements, things like that.
50:35Why do why do you think why do you think the Taliban at at that point not 2021 but at that point was starting to have success let's say winning over some hearts and minds I have a few theories um when I studied counterterrorism one thing especially that intro interested me about Hezbollah um was that they actually had a branch for hearts and minds, right? They built hospitals. They had, you know, they supported their people. So, there's a militarized, a political, and then there's like the dog good branch.
51:18>> I think I mean, Afghan history is so so different, right? And the groups are so so different, but I think there was a bit of that as well. Um, I I don't know.
51:31I don't know because the people that I worked with and the source I met even the locals that worked, you know, at our house where we were like everyone was like staunchly opposed and really afraid.
51:43>> Yeah.
51:44>> So, I don't know if it's that. I don't know if maybe it's again that like I mentioned before that fear, you know, you just you fall in line because you're just trying to preserve yourself, your livelihood, your family. Yeah. You know, I think a lot of people act out of fear in ways that they normally wouldn't just for self-preservation.
52:02>> Yeah. Now, when you were assigned to go there again for DIA's purposes, I'd imagine the main mission was for the protection of the assets, our our military on the ground, right?
52:14>> Yeah.
52:15>> So, similar kind of thing to Iraq as far as like, oh, where are the IEDs? Where's where's Tal where where's Taliban headquartered? Where do we got to stay away from? That kind of stuff.
52:24>> Yeah, there was a lot of that. There was a little bit of strategic as well. Um, so when you're I mean the Afghan government was newly formed. There were a lot of big personalities. Um, former warlords like General Dostam for example. Yeah.
52:39>> Um, just people and players that we're still trying to figure out what's their motivation, what's their end goal, who are they in with, who like. So that kind of intel was also very helpful.
52:50>> Okay. Had you had any involvement or look through or anything in the lead in the years before you were in Afghanistan? Had you had any involvement in the Osama bin Laden investigation?
53:05>> No.
53:06>> How did you get involved?
53:08>> Luck. Uh, so there was a walk I think he was a walk-in actually that a friend of mine had met with. I think he met with him once or twice. And I remember he my friend was leaving. He was with a different unit, but he was DIA.
53:27And he said, "This guy can talk. He talks so much. He talks so much." And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, okay." And he's like, "But he claims that he knows where Osama is. Like, I can't get anything out of him. Like, we just sit there for hours and I don't know what he's saying. Like, he's just talking."
53:44Okay. So, I had uh the meeting, the first meeting. First meeting. I was like, "Oh my god, this guy talked so much."
53:54>> Like, "Please stop talking." Um, >> who do you say he was?
53:58>> Uh, I'm So, with this story, I've got people have have some people have heard the story and they think I'm burning my source, but I changed things. Okay.
54:06>> Okay. Um, so he he was very close with Osama.
54:12Um, he had known him forever, like just I don't know, they had been friends forever. He was kind of his right hand for a while. He knew about the attacks of September 11th before they happened.
54:26>> Um, which if you step back, the the attacks on September on September 11th were pivotal for me for me for my career. I was actually, side note, I was working at Stanford University at the time and I was driving to work listening to the radio when the planes hit the towers and I remember them breaking in and explaining and I remember them saying, "Bodies are falling out of the sky."
54:50>> Yeah.
54:50>> Right. Visceral memory >> one mile away from here.
54:54>> Right.
54:56that I when I got to work, I quit and I applied to grad school because I was angry at myself because I knew I wanted to do it and I was killing time. I wasn't actually fighting the good fight.
55:07I wasn't helping our country and I was really angry at myself. Like it was a personal failure. Um so when he brought up September 11th and we talked about it and we talked about his history, we talked about his we talked about everything. It was very difficult for me especially initially like you're sitting across the table from someone who you hate right I hated everything that he stood for I hated everything that he knew about it was really really difficult but I'm not going to recruit someone if I hate them right you can tell when someone doesn't like you >> Oh yeah >> um and I was really frustrated cuz He
55:50did talk way too much. But over the course of months and spending literally our meetings were like 9 hours. They were these marathon meeting. They were exhausting.
56:00>> What did he talk about?
56:01>> Oh my god. He just blathered on and on.
56:04He was he was okay. He was a very nice person.
56:08His motivations had changed, right?
56:12>> He was pro- al-Qaeda. He had things happen in his life where his motivations changed. He saw the light after September 11th. He was like, "Oh my god, what are we doing?" He had family influence that was like, "What are you doing? This is not okay." And he just kind of stepped back and realized, "Yeah, I might want Sharia. I might want all this stuff, but this is not the way to do it."
56:33>> Okay. So, it took me a long time to just see him as a person now, not as his past, and try to try to respect him and try to have empathy and try to empathize with him in his situation and and be in his shoes and his life that day, if that makes sense.
56:52>> This is a guy who I'm just using the example you just gave, who, you know, wanted stuff like Sharia law and he's talking to an American woman case officer, probably not wearing a hijab.
57:02>> Yes. No, wasn't. Nope. Um, >> interesting.
57:04>> And we talked about that. There was there was one point because it was like eating me up. Why? Like he talked to my friend. My friend was a dude.
57:12>> Yeah.
57:13>> And I straight up asked him, "Why are you talking to me? I am a white western woman. I am the antithesis of everything that you believe in."
57:21>> I straight up asked him. And of course, you know, there's an interpreter. So, he would talk for four hours. The poor interpreter is like, "Wait, wait. I need >> So, no English.
57:28>> No English.
57:30>> No. and and my interpreter and him were from very different parts of the world.
57:33FY this comes in later.
57:35>> Okay.
57:36>> So I I asked him and he kind of just sat back. I'll do this. He just sat back and he kind of got this little smirk and went and I was like okay.
57:51>> But we ended up building a really good rapport. Now remember I didn't have kids at the time. I had really wanted kids.
57:58He had 5,000 kids. He had He had a lot of kids. He had a lot of kids.
58:02>> Like, what kind of number are we actually talking?
58:04>> I don't know. Probably in the dozens.
58:06>> He had a lot of kids. He was busy.
58:07>> He had a lot. Yeah, he was very busy.
58:08>> Poor lady.
58:08>> Yeah. Or ladies.
58:09>> Ladies. Yeah.
58:13>> Doing that over there.
58:14>> Yeah. Um he was probably exhaust. That's why he looks so tired all the time.
58:19>> Yeah.
58:21Um so it really this operation pushed me outside of my comfort zone more than any other because I had worked with terrorists before.
58:29But this was different to me, right?
58:31>> And so I just spent a lot of time getting to know him, getting in his head, understanding the motivations, his vulnerabilities, his suitability, all of that.
58:39>> Um, just listening. He just wanted to be listened to in large. A lot of people when you get him talking, they just want to talk, right? This is what you do for a living.
58:49So, remember we had talked about money and every at the end every meeting I had a little envelope and I would slide the envelope over and thank you.
58:58>> Pay that to your 7,000 kids. There you go. There's your child support.
59:01>> Thank you so much. You're going to have to feed a lot of people.
59:04>> And he would always very graciously push it back and say, "No, thank you. I don't want your money."
59:08>> Oh.
59:09>> And every time I was like, "Damn it, because I can't recruit him if he's not taking >> Right. You were saying." So I checked all the other boxes but that and it was killing me. It was killing me and I was brainstorming with people and we could not come up with a solution. I tried everything I could think of and finally it just hit me. So I had gone side note there was there's a very there's a world famous evidently maybe it's a cobb palm reader. He's probably gone. He was very very old. He's probably dead by now. He was very old. But one of my sources had taken me and a couple of people from my
59:41team to go meet this palm reader. H.
59:43>> And this palm reader when I sit down, I give him my palm and he has a ruler and he's measuring and he goes, "You will have 12 kids." And I was like, "What? We got to go."
59:54Um, so that was kind of a running joke with my team and I. And I had told this this guy about the palm reader and that I was going to have 12 kids. And we started bonding over kids that I wanted kids and that he had a bunch. And I realized this guy is a religious scholar, right?
60:13education is super important to him.
60:16>> Yeah.
60:16>> And he has all these kids.
60:18>> And so the next meeting we did the meeting and I had my envelope and I started to slide it over and I stop when he went to like touch it to push it back. I kind of stopped him and I was like, "Stop. Don't don't touch it." And he looked at me and I said, "Look, after this meeting, I want you to go down to the local bank and I want you to open a bank account in your eldest son's name."
60:38>> What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave, as well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge, huge help. You can join my Patreon via the link in the description, and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.
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