0:01when you got married and obviously like David Misovich is Msavage is [ __ ] we like to call him >> whatever [laughter] I like that Msage Davy boy he's trying to [ __ ] with you guys with your relationship while you guys are also both geographically separated and everything but like did you feel like you were in love and did you want to have kids like were these any type of conversations or feelings you're having early on in the marriage >> you can't really have that conversation Because in Scientology if you talk about leaving that is a suppressive act. If you talk about leaving Scientology if to
0:37another person in Scientology >> even your husband.
0:40>> Yes. So having kids would be essential to leaving because if you leave there's a policy [snorts] in Scientology where if you leave Scientology Hubard says we don't close the door all the way. We leave it a crack open in case they want to come back in. Okay. But at the headquarters, there's a policy that he wrote specifically for the people that work at the international headquarters. If you leave from the headquarters, we bolt the door shut and weld it with an atomic branding iron. So that person can never ever be in Scientology ever again if you if you escape from the international headquarters.
1:17>> And kids are a problem with that.
1:18>> You're not allowed to have kids if you're in the sea or >> Oh. It's kids are pregnant is forced to have an abortion which happened to me twice.
1:26>> It happened to you twice >> while we were at the international office.
1:29>> While we were married.
1:31>> Now what was that like? I mean that that sounds like the worst nightmare of all time.
1:36>> It is absolutely the worst nightmare of all time. The first time I was 19 um I hadn't been being paid so I couldn't afford birth control. And um from the moment I realized, oh, I missed my period, I had to go to the medical person and ask for a pregnancy test. So immediately the cat's out of the bag, so to speak. And I'm told that I I'm not even allowed to have a conversation [clears throat] with Mark about it.
2:05>> So you didn't even know. And um I mean I as I said I I had always wanted kids and this was absolutely my worst nightmare.
2:16During our lawsuit I made a list of all the women I personally knew who'd had been forced to have abortions. Some of them were required to have up to six abortions.
2:28And um that list was 80 women long. It got so bad that the place that they were taking the women was like, "Hey, there's something weird here because you guys are bringing they're the husbands are never there."
2:42>> The Riverside Family um Planned Parenthood Clinic.
2:46>> You're bringing them here in a minivan.
2:47So, they're doing two or three women at a time and they had to switch to another place because the place was like this.
2:54It was the place that was doing them that was like there's something wrong with this. We can't keep doing this. And if if a woman even for a second didn't immediately comply, they'd be put on heavy manual labor and interrogated, separated from their husband, restricted to the property, like extreme measures um >> to convince them to do it.
3:18>> Yeah. And in my case, I was 19. I knew that if I tried to fight it, I would lose my family, likely lose my husband, lose everything. Um, and I thought about fighting it and I just didn't [clears throat] feel that I I was even mentally capable of fighting. Um, but I was grilled on what to say, what to do.
3:41Um, you know, six-foot Australian dude took me to the um, Planned Parenthood clinic and waited there. Um, and the distinct memory I have from that was literally, you know, so the clinic staff are not Scientologists, obviously. They don't know what's going on. And the the the one of the nurses, um, I had been grilled to say, or drilled, I should say, drilled to say, um, I don't want any pain medication. I don't want to talk to a psychologist. just go through with it. And one of the nurses looked at me and she said, "Honey, where's your husband?" And it just in that moment just I was just like, "Oh my
4:28god, he's at work." You know, just um anyhow, in that moment, I was just destroyed like completely and utterly.
4:41And in my mind, I remember also thinking, if this ever happens again, [ __ ] these people. I'm I'm done. I I don't care what they put me through. I will not ever go through through with this again. But fast forward two years.
4:55>> Now, have you shared that this happened?
4:57>> Yeah.
4:58>> I found out after it was already all done and dusted.
5:01>> And when you found out, what was your thought?
5:03>> I was like, you we can't, you know, it is what it is. We were if we we we had seen there there had been probably by that time at least three or four couples that had that had gotten pregnant and in in almost every case the the they were separated and they were both put on to manual labor at separate places. So they wouldn't see each other. They couldn't couldn't game plan anything because they're not together. And it always ended up with either th those people got disappeared. We don't know what happened to them if they kept the kid. And there's a policy if you leave the sea or just any sea or location for for having
5:47for having a baby, then you're supposed to get sent to a small failing Scientology organization. So one that can't pay their bills, can't pay their staff, is in a shitty strip mall somewhere. So they purposely put you in in even a worse living situation so that you will have to struggle. It it will you know I can either stay here and not have a kid or I can have a kid and also be on the struggle bus in the in the middle of nowhere where I don't have any family or support system or anything. So it's it's a Sophie's choice.
6:26>> It's always a Sophie's choice in Scientology. There's no there's only the the the lesser evil and the worst evil.
6:34There's never a good way out. It's always going to be [ __ ] some way or another >> again. How is that not I don't understand how with accounts like you guys being public how that's not prosecuted >> because it's part of their belief system that that's how you do it >> and because they've >> it's completely illegal now. They and they have all the best lawyers to protect them and using their >> buses of women >> taxexempt dollars to protect an evil abusive organization and and yeah so so back to this two years later now I've been moved into religious technology center I was sent to Clearwater Florida
7:15is now in California and I was in a meeting all day with David Msgavage coming in and out with 20 other people. Um he was railing on and on and on screaming about some whatever the latest flap of the day was and I passed out and I was carried out of that conference room into a bathroom and and honestly to this day I don't know why what happened happened but somebody brought me a pregnancy test and I did it and it was positive and now now >> I got just just to put it out there if you pull the goalie and I got Michael Phelps swimmers. They're going to that's going to happen. Okay, [laughter] >> they're getting to the finish line.
8:04[laughter] >> Oh my god.
8:08>> That was the second time. And now you know what happens though.
8:11>> Yeah.
8:12>> And that time I And that time I that I was I never found out about that time.
8:17>> You never found out about that?
8:19>> No. Not until six months later. The next time I physically saw him, I tried to I put in a CSW, completed staff work request to call Mark, and it was disapproved. I was not allowed to even call him. And um >> they took you to Planned Parenthood in Clearwater.
8:37>> Mhm.
8:39>> And you had said the last time that you'd never let this happen again. What again? You're like a prisoner in an organization, so I'm not judging at all, but like what's going through your head?
8:49[snorts] Uh, I mean again like how the heck he heck did I end up here? By this time I'm 21. Um, you know, it's my husband. I love him and I've always wanted children. It just just it's soul destroying, you know. It it just really is. It's like if I had one superpower, it would be to turn back time on that [ __ ] [ __ ] It's just uh, you know, the only thing that brings me peace. Not that I, you know, I've had to work through a lot on this, but during our lawsuit, because forced abortion was one of the causes of action, it like we know many many people who because of that lawsuit were able to leave and have kids
9:38>> because they couldn't outlaw it anymore.
9:39They couldn't make the women do it anymore because now they're being accused of making women do this. So then they had to stop.
9:46>> The craziest thing is We help people with our foundation to get CEO members, help them get to saf Michael J. Render Aftermath Foundation.
9:56>> And so we've heard over the years we we were always being told, "Oh, this is happening or that's happening."
10:03>> Well, now they're not making the women do this. The dudes are all getting snipped. So, it just doesn't happen in the first place. [snorts] So, it's kind of wild.
10:14>> But that's like >> I know. It's it's like it's like the other side of a shitty coin. It's like what? Now the dudes are having to go through a procedure >> so it doesn't happen in the first place.
10:26But um yeah, and also to be fair, she was also promoted to religious technology center. So now she's working directly with David Muscavage in Clearwater, a totally different organization than I'm working at. So, we are only seeing each other if I happen to be going to Clearwater to put on [snorts] one of these events or conventions that they have. And I might see her for one night in in a year or in 6 months or in four months or whatever whenever if I happen to go and if I happen to see her when I'm there.
10:59>> So, you're what when this happens 21 the second one. So when you guys do get a chance to talk about it 6 months later, there's still no discussion of leaving.
11:12>> No.
11:12>> No.
11:13>> Because >> we were both really upset and Mark asked me, "Why didn't you tell me?" And >> yeah, >> I was like, I I tried.
11:21>> I tried. Um, you know, >> it's just not a conducive, it's not a conducive environment for any sort of relationship, right? Because >> you can't really trust the person all the time. They might rat you out. They think you might rat them out.
11:39>> Um, >> could you talk to anyone about like your emotional state?
11:43>> No. And that that's what was so damaging about these beyond, you know, I was never even allowed to grieve that loss because doing so would have been considered a crime.
11:58>> A crime.
11:59>> Yeah. Like uh if I wanted a child, which of course I did, then that was meant I wanted to leave. And that's a that's you know a transgression. That makes me a suppressive person. It's a suppressive act to talk about wanting to leave, even to your husband. So, by that point, I was just so um felt just completely stuck with no options. I mean, that that really [ __ ] with you.
12:28>> Oh, yeah. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are.
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13:02can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. Yeah.
13:05>> And this is what we're in mid90s now.
13:08>> Yeah. 1996.
13:10>> 96.
13:10>> So you you guys don't you don't leave till 2005, right?
13:14>> And you've you've already talked about like kind of the buildup and ' 04 and and things like that. But let's cuz now you guys have dealt with these you found each other. That's great. But you've dealt with these awful traumatic kind of things that you have to compartmentalize which is completely inhumane. like goes against human nature to have to do that.
13:35You continue serving the organization.
13:37You're very high up in it. In fact, you're higher than Mark is. Yeah.
13:41>> Call me sir.
13:42>> Need to call you sir.
13:43>> Or Mr. Headley.
13:44>> If I didn't call her sir household, too.
13:46>> No, not at not at home. [laughter] >> Mr. Headley. Let's go to bed. But if we were Yeah. That's a sentence that's never come out of [laughter] an event.
13:57>> When when we would be in a meeting and somebody I would have to say like, "Oh, this happened." And they said, "Well, didn't somebody from Religious Technology come down here and talk to you and I go, "Yeah, Mr. Headley came down here." [laughter] He's kind of gay.
14:11>> Yeah.
14:13>> Like, god damn it. What am I doing here?
14:15[laughter] >> Mr. Headley is trans.
14:19>> Oh man. So you guys go through this though and then 05.
14:24>> So in ' 05, in January of '05, I had a motorcycle. I It was legal.
14:30>> Now you got a bike. It was legal.
14:32>> I had one too, by the way.
14:33>> We had the same We had We both had Yamaha TWW200. So it's like a dual sport, big big tires. You can drive it on the road, you can drive it on the dirt.
14:42>> Though in 1999, I broke my leg on a motorcycle. Almost lost my foot cuz they >> Oh my god. didn't call 911 cuz David Muscavage was on the property. I broke my tib fib um both bones right above my ankle.
14:57>> And they didn't call 911. [snorts] >> Nope.
14:59>> And then it could be drugs obviously.
15:01>> Nope.
15:01>> No. Not even talking.
15:02>> No. So even So the the accident happened on the property. The security chief came and put a splint on my leg and then they shoved me into the little red Honda and drove me to the hospital. And on arrival in the hospital, [clears throat] I was already in shock. So they rushed me into the ER. The doctors were said, um, you know, why? First of all, they were super pissed, like, why didn't you call 911?
15:31>> Cuz we're Scientologists, >> right? Then the next thing that came was, who put this splint on? And I'm in shock about almost potentially going to lose my leg, but I couldn't say anything bad about Scientology. So, I just said, "I don't know."
15:46>> Um, >> it was Kevin [clears throat] Katano, security chief, the same dude who was getting counseling from Tom Cruz.
15:51>> And then didn't know how to rig a splint because of what they did because and because my my leg was completely broken, like it was connected by muscle and tissue and that was it. Um, so they because they'd put the wrong splint on, it took them about four hours of testing to see if I was going to lose my foot.
16:11>> Oh my god. And then even the next day, so I had to go into surgery the next day. Oh god, this was a such a nightmare. The medical people were like, "Tell the doctor that you don't want general anesthetic, general anesthesia."
16:25>> The Scientology medical.
16:27>> Yes. The Scientology, which they have no medical training. Don't let the title be confusing. Um they had talked to the doctor and the doctor said, "Yes, this surgery can be done with a spinal tap."
16:38Um, so they the medical staff told me, "You have to tell them to not give you general anesthesia.
16:46Tell them you want a spinal tap." And and so by that point, Sunday morning, they're rolling me down the hallway to this operating room and the gen the um anesthesiologist was this short like grandma type lady.
17:01And I turned to her, I looked up at her and I said, "Can I please get the spinal tap? I can't get general anesthesia."
17:07and she laid her hands on me and she said, "Honey, you are in no condition to get the spinal tap. You cannot. I will take care of you." And I just let let go at that point. I was just like, >> "Did they find out about that?"
17:21>> Of course. [laughter] >> Did you get locked in a room or something because of it?
17:27>> No, but it it was something that I was, you know, punished for and um >> you got >> I had to do conditions and you know, whatever. In Scientology they have conditions of existence and >> conditions above normal are good normal >> uh >> affluence power power change and then they have conditions below non-existence and so if you do something >> reason is betrayal trust enemy liability >> confusion those are all come with you have to do amends and you have to get people to let you back in the group and you have to do confessions and admit your sins and you know all this other stuff.
18:09>> Sins. Yeah. So basically if you get in trouble for anything the first line of of the Scientology justice is you basically get knocked down a bunch of pegs and you got to [snorts] work your ass off to get back into good standing >> unification again.
18:25>> Yeah. And if you don't do that then you could get what's called a court of ethics. And a court of ethics usually signs amends and things you have to do to make up the damage. And then if that fails to turn you around, then you get a committee of evidence and you can be taken off your post. You can be kicked out of the sea or you can be declared a suppressive person. So there's always >> there is always a response if you do something you're not supposed to do.
18:52>> It might not come right now, but it's coming. Yeah.
18:55>> So, what made you finally have the moment to where you couldn't even tell your wife what's [snorts] happening, but you walkie-talkie, you find out Claire's not coming home, and you go, I'm getting the [ __ ] out of here. Yeah. So, they basically I was doing a project for David Muscavage to to design and identify every single audiovisisual system for every single Scientology organization. So they have maybe in one organization they might have 15 or 20 different systems for different parts of the organization DVD playouts uh film rooms to teach Scientology training courses all these different things and I
19:33had gotten approval on maybe 75% of those and I needed approval on seven 20 the last 25% and I had sent a proposal to David Mscavage and he hadn't gotten it yet because the people on the way were holding it or were stalling and they didn't want to look at it. They didn't want to get in trouble if they approved it or unapproved it. And so he wrote down and said, "Haven't gotten this proposal for Mark. If he's not working on that, what is he working on?"
20:04And that's sort of like an invitation.
20:06>> It's a prompt for an investigation >> for the police people at the Scientology police to dig in and figure out what he's got going and then serve him up on a platter. And so they basically figured out that I was selling old 16 millimeter projectors that were going to be thrown away. I was selling them on eBay for insane prices. You were >> I was They were real, >> which he had approval to do.
20:31>> I got approval. I did a whole proposal to be able to sell these.
20:34>> They were going to throw them away.
20:35>> They were like, "What are we going to do with 2006?
20:38>> You're making more in one sale than you make in like [ __ ] 10 years at Scientology."
20:43>> I sold so many The projectors [laughter] were the projectors were really high-end projectors at the time in 1980.
20:52>> And they were still in the box, never opened, hundreds of them.
20:56>> And there was this whole culture around playing old 16 millimeter films and but people had to repair these old projectors to make them work. I had brand new ones in the box, never been opened. And I was selling the they might have bought them for a few hundred bucks in the 80s. I was selling them for two, three, $4,000 on eBay. And I sold I sold so many. But if in Scientology in the sea or you're not allowed to have a credit card for the organization.
21:23>> So I had a Wells Fargo debit card that I my Wells Fargo account would have $50 in it. Then I'd overdraft it and then I'd have negative 45 and then I'd save up some money and I'd fill it back up so that I wouldn't overdraft. And then when I set this up, I said, "Hey, I need a credit card from you guys to be able to set up the account." account and they said, "No, no, we're not giving you any ORC credit card. Use your own debit card or whatever." So, I was like, "Okay."
21:50So, I had like 30k in my account in my PayPal account from selling all this gear. And when they were digging through my office doing this investigation, they found a receipt for a lens that I had sold for like 150, 300 bucks or whatever. And they were like, "Oh, we got the smoking gun. Where did this money go?" I was like, "It went into my PayPal account." They're like, "You have an account that has organization money in it?" And I was like, "Yeah, I got approval. I have a whole proposal. It's all signed off by everybody for me to be able to fund these new design and projects with the all this old junk that
22:26we're throwing away." Anyway, they were like, "It's done. You're going to the RPF. It's done." Which >> is their effective prison.
22:32>> Yeah. And I'll never see her because they don't they they disbanded the rehabilitation project force at the international headquarters. So you would have to go to Clearwater, Australia or Los Angeles to do the >> He didn't mention, but the money that he had made, he had given to the organization. It's not like he had it sitting in his account, >> but they found that there were fees associated with it that he hadn't included in his proposal.
22:58>> My proposal, I didn't say, "I'm going to sell something for 300 bucks. There's going to be an eBay fee and there's going to be a PayPal fee." So they're like, "Oh, you basically embezzled that money." I'm like, "No, it went to the fees."
23:07It started at the time that this was happening, it started as, "Oh, you embezzled $250 of fees that you didn't disclose and we didn't approve that."
23:18And he hadn't picked up his pay. So, he went to go pick up his pay and he was like, "Okay, here's the money." Like, "Yeah, here's 250 here. We're good." And they're like, "Nope, it's a financial irregularity." According to Elron Hubard's words, anyone who commits a financial irregularity, quote unquote, can what is it? Join the Walking Dead.
23:35>> Join the Walking Dead. And [clears throat] The Walking Dead hadn't even come out at this. [laughter] >> Wow. He's ahead of his time.
23:41>> This is a 1960s he wrote.
23:43>> Did like the security guard say you're coming with us now?
23:45>> Yeah. So basically I got interrogated >> and that was the night that he radioed me asking me if he the next morning he was going to be sent to the rehabilitation project force in LA and I would never I and I would never see him again. And meanwhile I hadn't been home so I had no idea any of this was happening.
24:03>> I actually went >> I was in the hole by then.
24:05>> Yeah. She was in this place called the >> kicked out of religious technology center for refusing to divorce Mark.
24:13>> Anyway, so I I basically am like I'm out. They make me pack up all my [ __ ] in my office. Pack up all your stuff.
24:22You're never coming back here again.
24:24Whatever. They're all my files. They ripped all my files. They took my PayPal card. They took my bank card. They took everything. So I could didn't have access to the money anymore. and and I was basically like [clears throat] so I went and um found um I woke up Elron Hubard's granddaughter who lived on the property and her name was Rowanne. Her name still is Rowanne. Um I knocked on Rowan's door and I said, "Hey Rowanne, I got a whole bunch of nonsense I'm dealing with. Can you spot me like two 300 bucks for a week or two because I got to sort this all out?" And she's like, "Sure." She writes me a check. And
25:02then I went to the Treasury Department.
25:05>> She gave you the money.
25:06>> Yeah. Yeah. She's got She had some favors.
25:09>> She had some head. No, she had some hovered money.
25:11>> She was our friend.
25:12>> She was our friend. She still my good friend. She's escaped since then and she >> Oh, good for her.
25:16>> But there's another She comes up She comes [laughter] up a little a few days later in this story, but um when I got the money from her, but I had to cash it, so it wasn't really good to any use to me. I guess I could have endorsed it, but either way, I went to the accounts department. I said, "Hey, I haven't picked up my pay in forever. Can I get my pay?" And I had a whole bunch of back weeks of pay. And also, my sister had some back weeks of pay.
25:42>> They gave it to you. It's like, you're going to jail, buddy.
25:44>> No, no, they don't know. It's all siloed, so they don't know.
25:47>> He also, you also went to my office.
25:49>> I went to her office, went to her push, took all her cash. [laughter] So by the time the morning of them, by the time the morning comes along, I've got like three 400 bucks in my pocket and this check.
26:01>> So I go on my I have a motorcycle. I was not allowed I had been restricted to the property for a really long time. So I wasn't even allowed to go to our where we live together. I had to sleep under my desk at the property.
26:15>> Under your desk?
26:16>> Yeah.
26:16>> For months?
26:17>> Because I wasn't allowed to go home cuz I was >> caught down there. No, just like [ __ ] the floor.
26:22>> Got a a shoe maybe or something you can make a pillow out of. Um maybe a roll of paper towels that hasn't been unwrapped.
26:30>> That's comfortable.
26:31>> Yeah.
26:32>> Um done that before.
26:34>> Anyway, I have horrible back problems now. It might be because I slept under my desk maybe 4700 times. But um so I get the uh my bike has been sitting in the garage at this house that we live right next to the property. We lived right outside the gates of the property in a house with like 10 other RTC people that work with her.
26:53>> Okay.
26:54>> And the motorcycle was sitting in the garage and nobody knew that's where the motorcycle was. It just been sitting in there cuz if you're at the property and you're they think you're going to escape, they lock up your bike. Like they chain it up so you can't get out.
27:07But they didn't know my bike was at the house. And they said you can go home but you're you're going to get interrogated tomorrow and then you're going to go to the RPF. So I was like okay fine. So before I leave, because I had set up this whole base network, I went into David Muscavage's personal server and downloaded hundreds and hundreds of pictures of him and Tom Cruz doing all kinds of bromancy [ __ ] all over the place. And I put it on a [ __ ] drive.
27:34And I'm like, this is a [ __ ] little insurance package I'm putting together here so they don't [ __ ] with me. Anyway, [snorts] and because I had access to the whole entire base network, no one would ever think that somebody could do that.
27:47So, I get those, I put those on a thumb drive, grab all the cash together, I walk home, and as I'm walking home, I actually end up walking with another RTC person. And so, when I walk out the gate, sometimes if you go to go out the gate, they'll be like, "You can't go home. Go come back here. I'm not going to I'm not going to buzz you out." But because she was with me, I let her just be like five feet ahead of me when the gate got opened. And as soon as they opened it for her, I just jammed through there, walked, and then I walked the rest of the way down the road with her to her house. And then I went to my
28:20house. And then that's when I call Claire. Hey, are you coming home? It's like 2 3:00 in the morning now. No, I don't know. We'll see. D. So I get all my stuff together. I put it in this super old 1982 suitcase that I had had. I put it on the strap it bungee cord to the back of the bike that's in the garage. And then I'm waiting for her and I fall asleep.
28:47And so now I wake up in the morning.
28:50It's like about 9:00. So they've already had >> jail. I've already had the morning muster at 8:30 and I wasn't there.
28:56>> You overslept.
28:57>> I I just passed out. So I just overslept. I didn't even I just overslept anyway. And then there's a bang on the door and it's security. And they're like, "Hey, what the fuck?" And I was like, "Oh, I told I needed to be sessionable. I had to sleep enough to come in and be be able to be put on the meter. You're supposed to sleep enough to be able to do that." And because I'd gone to bed at 3, I was like, "Hey, I got I was going to come in at lunch."
29:20They're like, "Fuck that. You're coming in right now. We don't give a [ __ ] about your sleep. Get your ass to the property." And so I'm like, "Okay, fine." So then I close the door. I get my [ __ ] together and I go to the bike. I open up the garage and I just jam out of there. Well, the security SUV is parked next to our house on the road. So, as soon as I'm jamming out of there, they're like, "Oh, we got a runner." And so, they're following me within 10 seconds of my escape. They're like, "Oh, we're on him." And as we're driving down the road, I'm I'm trying to get to Hemmet.
29:54>> Are you terrified? I'm completely losing my mind because I soon as I jam out of there, I look at my rearview. I'm like, "Oh, you got to [ __ ] be kidding me.
30:02They're already on me. I'm not even getting a head start."
30:06Anyway, they they as we're driving into Sanento, the road narrows and there's like some farms and there's some dirt roads next to it and there's fences where these farms are. They basically just get next to me. They're like, "Dude, you got to come back." They're yelling out the window, "You gotta come back. You gotta come back. can't do this. It's not going to end well. And I'm like, "Fuck you.
30:28I'm out. I'm going. I don't give a shit." And they basically just ran me off the road with the SUV. I crash. My suitcase is out. [ __ ] bike's [ __ ] up. And when that happened, somebody driving by called 911 and they said, "Hey, there's a whole bunch of guys fighting on the side of the road with some guy on a motorcycle that they just crashed." And >> there's a copy of the police report from that in his book.
30:52>> Yeah. Wow. and they have a scanner, a police scanner in the security SUV. So they that person calls the police.
31:02Dispatcher says, "Hey, incident on this road with this SUV with a bunch of guys and this motorcycle with one guy and and they're meanwhile they're in the middle.
31:13They took the key out of my bike, so I couldn't even try to get it going again." And I'm like, "Give me my [ __ ] key." And they're like, "No, Mark, you got to come back. You got to come back." Call goes out on the scanner. They hear that, they throw me the [ __ ] key and they whip it back to the property.
31:28>> Whoa.
31:29>> And so then I'm like, I don't know what happened. I just know that they gave me the key back and then they just took off like crazy. And I'm like, okay. The clutch broken off. The clutch uh levers broken off. So I have to bump start it and the carburetor's completely flooded from it flipping upside down and crashing. I get it going, but it only goes like 5 miles an [laughter] hour.
31:52I'm literally just idling on the road with cars behind me. And then I see this cop come and flip it and then woo, pull me over. And he comes up and I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm so [ __ ] This is like the worst thing that could happen cuz now I'm burned.
32:11I'm dead." Because now the police are getting involved. That's like the ultimate sin to get the police involved with the Scientology matter. So, I'm like, "Oh my god, please, please, please. I don't want to. I just want to get out of here." And the cop says, "Where are you trying to get to?" And I said, "I'm just going into town." And he goes, "We had a report of an incident that happened a little bit back on the road with an SUV and a vehicle that matches your description." And I'm like, "Oh, no. I'm just trying to see my dad."
32:40And they wanted they were asking me some stuff. They wanted to find out some stuff before I took off. And and then he goes back to the car and he runs my ID and it's got the property address on my driver's license. And so he's like, "Oh, this is they the police know people escape from there all the time and they get hunted down like animals." So they know about that.
33:03>> They're clued in of what's going on.
33:05>> Yeah. Well, they get sometimes when we when I was on the night shift, I'd see the cops hanging out with the main booth security guards. The guards would buy donuts for the cops and they'd hang out and have a little donut party. [snorts] >> Donuts and pizza will get you a lot in Scientology.
33:20>> Um, >> in this story, they're the good guys.
33:23So, >> yeah. Anyway, so the cop runs my ID. He comes back and he goes, "Dude, where are you trying to get to? I'll help you get there. I just need to know where you're trying to go." And I said, "I'm trying to get to U-Haul in Sanento so I can put my bike in the back of a truck and drive off and be gone." And he goes, "Okay, good. I'm going to call another car and we'll escort you to the U-Haul."
33:46>> Wow.
33:47>> So, we see I'm just waiting there. We're talking. The other car comes as soon as we start driving again. I still can only go 5 miles an hour cuz the [ __ ] carb is just destroyed. [clears throat] And I don't and I can't shift without [snorts] going more faster. So, I'm like first or second gear. I'm just like and they're literally just following me. And while [clears throat] that's happening, somebody from the property, the public relations director from the property and the legal director from the property are following the cops and the comp and back pulls o the cop and back pulls over one of them and says, "What the hell?" Oh,
34:25no. when we were stopped, when the cop was trying to figure out what was going on, the the PR director pulls up next to us on the road and she goes, "What's the matter with Mark?" And the cop's like, "You know this gentleman?" And she's like, "Yeah." And he goes, "That's when he figured it out." He goes, "Oh." Cuz he knew her cuz she's they have police they have events with the police in town all the time to safe point >> the Scientologist from the town.
34:49>> So he's like, "This [ __ ] is messing with her."
34:51>> He's like, "Oh, this they're trying to get him." Yeah. And so then we get the other cop anyway. Then the legal director, she has to pull away cuz he's like, "No, no, you're you're fine. Go drive along. You're interfering with my investigation right now. Move along." So then while we're driving, I can see the cops cuz we're going so slow and they're right be before and after me. I can see them talking or motioning to each other.
35:14And now I I look back and the other person from Golden Era, the legal director, he's following. So they pull him over. And this is all in this police report.
35:24>> Yeah.
35:24>> And so then they pull him over. Then the cop joins back in to follow me and the guys in front. We get to the U-Haul and I'm like, "Thanks, guys. I" They're like, "Are you [ __ ] kidding me?" In the two miles that we had to drive, two people tried to intercept you with us escorting you. And I'm like, "Okay." Okay. And they're like, you know, we're not leaving until you're in the [ __ ] truck driving away. So, they hang out with me at U-Haul. I call my dad. He's now in Kansas City by this time. He says, "I'll get you a plane ticket." I'm like, "What about my bike?" He's like, "Fuck your bike. Just dump that
36:03somewhere." And I'm like, "Well, that's the like the only thing I own is this."
36:07>> When was the last time you had talked to your dad?
36:10>> Probably a year or two before that.
36:13Maybe here and there. I would call him.
36:15His dad had a 1-800 number that he set up just for Mark and his sister >> to be able to call if they ever needed anything.
36:25>> And we he whenever he would see us, he was like, "You remember the 800 number, right?" And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay." I was >> This is This is out of like a [ __ ] up movie in every way.
36:36>> Anyway, so then we get to the U-Haul.
36:38>> I get the bike, roll the bike in the back of the U-Haul, strap it up. I get in the U-Haul. I'm going to drive to LA.
36:45I'm going to drive to LA. My dad's wife's friend lives there. I'm going to dump the bike at her apartment building.
36:51I'm going to get on a plane and I'm going to fly back to Kansas City.
36:54>> It's January and it's one of the biggest snowstorms they've had in that area is is happening that time [clears throat] in Kansas City and Denver.
37:05>> Anyway, so then um I go to Wells Fargo. I get the U-Haul.
37:12First stop, Wells Fargo. Got to cash this uh Rowan Hubard check. Okay, get that. And then um I go to the I stay with the lady. How did I do that? I stay I go to the lady, dump off the bike, and then I go return the U-Haul. She picks me up from the U-Haul place and then takes me to LAX. My dad buys me a ticket, >> but um there's no flights landing in Kansas City, so my flight is cancelled.
37:41Now, Scientology has their own travel agency that is a SeaOrg member.
37:47>> They can look up any flight on any airline and see who's where and what.
37:52So, all they >> the manifests.
37:54>> Yeah. They can see every They don't know the um they don't see the first name, but they can see the last initials of the name of the last name and they know who they're looking for. So, they can easily go D, oh, Mha. That's our guy.
38:08So, I'm thinking they're going to get me at the airport, but the flight gets cancelled and a bunch of flights get cancelled and also there's no way for me to get from Hemet to the LAX. There's no way for me to do that with the bike because the bike's totally tits up. So, I don't know if they think I'm going there or if they think I'm at a hotel locally. I don't know what they think, but I don't they don't find me at LAX and then I end up going to like they give me a voucher to go like across the street to the Sherin or some [ __ ] for because of my flight got cancelceled and I'm stuck in the airport and I literally
38:51I had whatever cash I had and I'm like, "Oh, I'm I got to eat something. I haven't eaten a single thing this whole entire day." I go into this Sheron. I order a burger and a drink and the woman brings the food. The waitress brings the food and she says, "Do you want another refill on your drink?" I'm like, "Sure."
39:12In the time that it took her to go refill the thing and come back, the burger's gone. And she literally looked at me like, "Are you okay, sir?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'm fine." She goes, "You literally ate a giant hamburger in 8 seconds. That's crazy." And I was like, "Oh, fuck." I'm like, >> "I'm nervous. I got to learn. I got to learn how to eat again. Like I can't just go.
39:35>> That's how you guys would eat.
39:36>> Oh, it was literally cuz we had 15-minute meal breaks for many, many years. And like I said, you got to do all the logistics of getting the food.
39:43So, if you don't eat in 5 minutes, you're [ __ ] Anyway, so then >> if you even have dining, >> I stay in a hotel that night. I sleep like the best sleep I've ever slept in my life at the by this time in a bed.
39:57>> You did?
39:58>> Yeah. It was amazing. And then it's like I wake up and I'm like, "Okay, it's back on." Cuz they can intercept me at any point.
40:07>> Anytime.
40:08>> I would have been sleeping with one eye open >> and telling me Claire is um she wants you to come back. Oh, you're not going to get whatever the story is.
40:17>> Are you worried about repercussions against Claire though?
40:19>> No. No, >> I'm not worried about [ __ ] all with her because I'm trying to get the [ __ ] out of there. But no, >> but also [laughter] but also I know it's going to be easier for me to maybe get her out at when I'm gone. If there's any chance of getting her out, I will have more resources now that I'm on the outside than I would have had on the inside. So, I go I end up with my uh my dad picks me up from uh Kansas City. We go home and then I'm like, "Okay, I'm here." And for two or three weeks, I basically slept. My dad wked for Dell. He was a computer technician and he traveled all over the
40:58United States just upgrading banks and Walmarts and just whole computer systems. And he had a side hustle where he fixed people's computers and he had a whole stack of people's computers that he was that he had to fix. And I was like, "Can I do this? I know how to do computer stuff all day every day. I can do this." He was like, "Sure." Anyway, I end up stealing all of his clients that he had fixing stuff and I get a pizza restaurant and I'm in two weeks I'm making 50 bucks an hour. I'm making more I'm making more in one hour than I made in a whole goddamn week. So, I'm like, "What the fuck?" And
41:38>> I ain't flipped one burger and I'm [ __ ] slaying it.
41:41>> She hasn't thought about Claire in a week.
41:43>> No. And I always tell her I always tell her like >> lost lost her >> before right before. So they changed her phone. Oh, and also the phone that I had was a Nexttel, but it was my personal phone. David Muscavage gave it to me for Christmas [ __ ] a week earlier. He gave me this next Dell phone.
42:06>> Thanks, Dave. And so it was my phone, so I kept it and I but I turned it off because I didn't I knew they're going to call me full-time. So I just took the battery, >> which I was doing, by the way.
42:18>> I took the battery out, but then they changed her phone number. So I tried to call her phone number and [snorts] it was not it wasn't in service because they changed swapped out her phone number so I wouldn't be able to get a hold of her.
42:30>> Are you worried that they were taking Claire to the prison in your place? No, because she didn't do anything and I we never spoke about it. So, she's basically she doesn't know what happened and they also told I don't know this at the time, but um so she doesn't know.
42:47So, I don't think she's going to get in trouble. If anything, I've unbburdened her because she's in trouble because she's married to me now. I'm the [ __ ] out of there. She should be golden again. Um, and it sucks and it's shitty, but I'm like, I'd rather be dead than [ __ ] stay at that place. That's where I was at. I was basically like, >> if I go to the rehabilitation project force, I'm never going to see her again anyway.
43:13>> So, that decision's already >> dystopian thing.
43:16>> That's that decision's already been made for me. I'm never going to see her again no matter what. We're done. So, at least I'm going to leave on my terms and [ __ ] do my life and not be [ __ ] in LA scrub dumpsters for the rest of my time. So, [clears throat] her sister is not really in Scientology that much. Her oldest, her younger sister, that's the oldest of the two, and she went to college or whatever. Claire calls her on her new phone, says, "Hey, can you get a message to Mark? he's on a project and I need to get a hold of him. And I had a Hotmail account forever and it was always like a
43:59I never told Scientology I had this account.
44:01>> The only reason I even knew you had that Hotmail account is cuz you sent me a text.
44:07>> Yes. From the from the Hotmail.
44:09>> That was what you were using to sign up for Pornhub.
44:12>> No. Match.com. Anyway, um [laughter] anyway, so I tell she tells her sister to message me on this email with her new phone number.
44:24>> Mhm.
44:25>> And I get this and I'm like, what the [ __ ] >> Took me two weeks to figure out how to get him a message.
44:31>> Yeah. But then I'm like, >> I figured it out.
44:33>> But then I'm like, this seems legit.
44:37Meaning like it's not a trap for me.
44:38>> It's not a trap. I don't think it's a trap because she's got her sister doing it. her sister's not in Sea or that's super super >> um not something you would bring >> it wouldn't be sanctioned at all.
44:51>> There's no way you would bring a a a green person into this crazy espionage se session that's not that doesn't just do that.
45:01>> So as soon as I get that I'm like okay I'm going to call her. And as soon as I call her, she's like, "Oh, they're saying they're going to get you back and that um Dave um is got the the police people got in trouble for even even messing with you. You're the only person who's getting anything done. You did all those other designs. It's all going to be worked. You're going to get all the money you need, all the personnel.
45:23You're going to get everything. It was a This whole thing is a giant fuckup." And I'm thinking, "Uh, I've [ __ ] been sleeping and [ __ ] at And this is all [ __ ] I you when you're there and you're constantly working, eating, trying to sleep, not getting any sleep, being yelled at, you're just in robot mode. You sleep for a week and you're just, it all just goes, the fog wears off and you're just like, "Well, [ __ ] those [ __ ] fuckers."
45:55>> Isn't it weird though? Like you're out in the real world now and it's just a week and you're like, "Yes, I'm eating.
46:01Yes, I'm sleeping." That's objective >> and I'm making tons tons of money, >> but you're like, "What the >> It is weird.
46:08>> Existential."
46:09>> It is. It's It's kind of like you jumped into somebody else's life.
46:15>> Yes.
46:15>> Like you >> jumped out of the Truman Show.
46:17>> You jumped out of that and now But now I don't know. I don't have any I have work skills and I have people skills, but I don't have real world skills. I don't like I got to pay for a phone. What the [ __ ] How much is that? Oh my god, that's the cheapest piece of [ __ ] in Noia. They want 80 bucks a month for that. Damn. You know, like I'm like, "Okay, that's my yearly seller."
46:41>> Yeah, [laughter] I'm going to have to save up for two years to get that flipper. [laughter] That the razor. That's a sweet little number there. Anyway, so >> you're like, "What is the Iraq war?"
46:54>> Yeah.
46:55>> Well, we knew a little bit, but um Anyway, so then Didn't they make them enlist like you're going to Iraq?
47:04>> That was 100 No, no, that was 100% an option that I was thinking of. I'll join the military.
47:10>> But I was 32 and I don't have a high school diploma. You have to have a high school diploma to join the military.
47:17That's one of the requirements.
47:19>> So I was like, [ __ ] And I'm really [ __ ] bad with the school stuff. I mean, I think really at the end of the day, algebra is what made me join the CEO or cuz I was like, I'm never going to cry.
47:32>> You [ __ ] with algebra? All the computers and cameras you're fixing, you don't [ __ ] with algebra.
47:36>> I know, but I was like, I can't I'm not like my I don't have enough bandwidth to be able to work on this and why, what am I going to use it for? Um, so I was like, damn.
47:49Anyway, I went to my wife my my dad's wife said, "You need to go to this place. They they'll give you a test and they'll find out what you could do based on what you know, like a I don't know, a job placement place and they test you and then you say they say, "Oh, you could do this." Anyway, they [ __ ] told me to [ __ ] kick dirt because I was too [ __ ] smart for any of the [ __ ] [ __ ] they're sending people to. And I was like, "Well, wait a minute. I can't get a job if I don't have a GED, but I'm too smart to get a job with these guys. And most of the people there were like English as a second language and stuff like that. It
48:26wasn't wasn't a lot of male Caucasians in the job placement place when I went in Kansas City at least.
48:32>> Anyway, so then she we start talking again and she's like [snorts] I'm like, "Well, you got to get out of there when Sunday morning you get a few hours to to clean your room and do stuff like that."
48:45And I'm like, just call a [ __ ] cab to the to that place on Sunday morning. And >> that easy.
48:53>> Well, >> yeah, I was going to say >> now you have to say what happened.
48:57>> So I said, well, no, because I I'm restricted to the property. I'm not allowed to go home. I had to sleep on the floor of my office with a sleeping bag. Um Oh, >> they at least gave me a sleeping bag.
49:09>> Yeah.
49:09>> Well, she was in the executive branch.
49:12>> No, by now I'm not in RTC anymore. I was busted >> into the hole.
49:18>> Still Mr. Headley to me. [laughter] >> Mr. Headley.
49:25>> And And you know, I had already by this time gone through my own version of hell. I'd lost like 30 lbs. I weighed less than 100 pounds, like 20 pounds less than I weigh now. I was literally like >> completely emaciated.
49:43um just really really messed up. And of course the moment he took off I initially they were going to take me out on the highway to bring him back. But then they told me he'd called 911. He'd gone to the dark side. He called the police. Um >> that's what they call it in Scientology when you leave. They call it the dark side. You've gone to the dark side.
50:04>> Yeah.
50:05>> Um not the clear side.
50:07>> No. No. Just just throw a little Star Wars in there. I was [ __ ] doing some Vader [laughter] [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Yeah. And And I was immediately like, "What the heck?" My entire world just went up in flames with him gone. And that same night, I was like, "I'm out of here." I packed a bag and hid it under my bed. Um the day he escaped. But then they by like two days after when they didn't get him back immediately, that's when they wouldn't let me go home at all anymore. That I had to sleep on the floor of my office. So, >> oh, and also the thumb drive with all the pictures.
50:41>> Left it on the ironing.
50:43>> Oh, no.
50:45>> Left it.
50:46>> All the Tom Cruz files.
50:47>> All of it. Uh, snowmoiling in Alaska.
50:50scuba diving in Bonire, Aruba, Kurissau, Scotland, on the sailboats, in the in England, in the Real Madrid with Beckham, Tom and Beckham in the stadium watching football, all of it on the ironing board, >> which to me I think if they found that, >> do you know how much you could have sold that for?
51:11>> But they found it. But I could have got in big trouble, too.
51:15>> Wow.
51:16>> Well, because those are their property.
51:19They weren't naked.
51:21>> Well, >> no, >> but they probably would have tried to sue. They pro Well, yeah. Yeah, >> I didn't like that [laughter] pause.
51:26>> Well, I was like I was like, well, not in all the pictures.
51:30>> Anyway, [laughter] they could have I think they could have jacked me up if I actually did take that because I the only things I ended up taking were my own things. But >> I but I always but I went through all my [ __ ] like what the [ __ ] And then I was like, >> they had somebody arrested 10 10 years later for taking files >> for having a hard drive.
51:52>> They don't mess around with that kind of stuff.
51:54>> But yeah, so um so I figured out how to get a message to Mark through my sister without telling her anything. Um and then Mark says, "So just call a cab."
52:05And I'm like, "Well, >> easy for you to say, but I'm locked up."
52:09>> And he said, "So what's your plan?" So, I had I had already I knew all the ways people had tried to escape from that place. Um, >> they' cut they'd they'd made lists and of all the people who had escaped from the property over a 15 20 year period.
52:28>> And so she knew every single way any person had ever escaped from the property. So given that I was in really bad physical shape, emotional shape, and everything else, I knew I had to come up with a plan that wouldn't involve them intercepting me because physically they could easily overcome me and had done so with people in the past that I knew of.
52:52So the idea that I came up with is I waited until David Msgavage had gone to Clearwater, Florida in January for the um Fort Harrison gala that they did to woo the locals there.
53:04>> How many months later is this?
53:05>> So no, this is three weeks. Three weeks after I left. Yeah. So I had made an an eye doctor appointment which was at the Walmart in Hemet. And normally how that would go is the medical staff would drive you to the appointment, drop you off, and then come pick come back 2 hours later to pick you up. So I thought, okay, that gives me a 2hour head start. Well, I had to. So, I had a an an eye doctor appointment for 10:15 January 24th, 2005, which ironically is the also happens to be the anniversary of Elron Hubard's death, though I didn't realize that at the time. I've [laughter] >> That's some biblical [ __ ]
53:47>> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Realize that.
53:49>> Just like you starting on March 13th.
53:51>> Yep.
53:51>> Yeah. Told me that off camera.
53:55>> [laughter] >> I own March 13th.
53:57>> There you go. Much better. Much better.
53:59We'll we'll uh rename it. Anyhow, so I had to get approval to go to the eye doctor appointment the night before. I wrote wrote it up and they said, "Well, you can go, but you have to have a security escort. You can't go like normal." So, somebody would be contact would be driving me to the Walmart, coming in with me to the appointment.
54:19>> Coming into the appointment. Yes. What do they say when they come in?
54:23my friend. It's my friend.
54:24>> Yeah, >> they they do it all the time.
54:26>> They do. They have people go to their parents' funerals and they got a a minder with them. Yeah.
54:31>> And it's like, who's this? This Susie.
54:33It's like, how long you guys been working to for each other? Like, we don't I don't even know her. She's just here to make sure I don't scadat him.
54:40>> I had this guy Lee sitting in that chair last year who escaped North Korea and it's all and we talked about it on that podcast, the similarities to Scientology, but it's the same thing.
54:50>> Yeah.
54:50>> Yeah.
54:51>> Crazy. So, you go into this appointment with your weird security guard guy, >> but no, it's a girl.
54:56>> It's a woman.
54:57>> It's a woman.
54:58>> And it's a girl that works for her. It's her junior.
55:02>> Oh, >> but she's twice my size. He can easily overcome me.
55:06>> Anyhow, we pul Oh, and so also that morning I had a the next phone radio thing.
55:13>> So, I had gone at six o'clock that morning. I went into a closet and called um a local cab company and scheduled a cab for $1015 at Walmart under the name Barbara Smith.
55:28And I had $200. So I specifically was like, "How much would it be for a cab from from Walmart to the Riverside County bus station?" And they said, " $90." So, I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to be basically halfway through my funds before I even make it out of the county." But whatever. I I I knew that that's why I had, you know, gone through every option and knew that I had to have Mark's help to escape.
55:58>> And I told her, soon as you get in the cab, turn off your phone. Take the battery out. Turn off your phone. When you get to Riverside bus station, there will be a ticket there for you that will take you to Barstow, which is the opposite direction of Kansas City.
56:16>> You're going to go >> too fast, too furious. Like, we're going to Barstow way the [ __ ] out there.
56:22>> So, I say go to Barstow and in Barstow we're going to get you a ticket to go to Kansas City. So, it'll if they are kind of trying if they're c catching up to you, we're going to throw them off that you're going the wrong direction to come visit me. But so the security escort has already thrown a wrench in the works because somehow I have to ditch the escort. So as it happened, so it's 10:15, we're pulling into the parking lot. She didn't immediately see a parking space. I'm looking over and at, you know, the entrance exit to I look over, there's the cab. So I said, "Hey, just just let me out up front. It's
56:5710:15. I'll go into my appointment while you park." And she went for it. So she let me out of the car at the front. I walked in. I walked in and I didn't want to run cuz I'm completely paranoid that I know that like in my mind it's like playing out like a movie like the PIs are going to be running after me. Have you seen this girl? You know, my hair was down past my butt.
57:22>> Your hair was that long?
57:23>> Yeah.
57:23>> Yep. So I I knew that >> and super red.
57:27>> Yeah. So, so I, you know, looked I I knew it would have stuck in someone's memory. So, I just walked as fast as I could, walked out the door, gotten in the cab, and the guy looks [clears throat] at me, he's like, "Barber Smith." I'm like, "Yep, that's me. Let's go." Um, so he's driving out of the parking lot. I'm waiting for Mark to call, and my radio goes off. It's the security escort. And she's like, "Where are you?" I'm like, "Oh, I just went to the bathroom. I'll be right there." I'm like, >> and the cab driver, he's she's right there. He's like, >> yeah, I'm like, he's looking at me like
58:02I've lost my marbles, but >> I'm in the bathroom right now.
58:05[laughter] >> He's like, you better not be.
58:09>> He's probably seen some crazy [ __ ] in Pakistan.
58:11>> Yeah.
58:12>> And then two minutes later, Mark calls >> and I'm like, okay, good. There's a ticket for you. Turn off your phone.
58:18Yeah.
58:19>> Cuz otherwise, because they have they have all the setup there at the property. they can just type in the number and see where where it's pinging from.
58:27>> But here's where it gets really crazy.
58:29Like we haven't gotten there yet. So I get to Barstow and he had told me to um call him for the to get the ticket number to go to Kansas City from a pay phone.
58:43>> From a pay phone like do not >> you turn the phone on.
58:45>> Yeah. So I panicked because I couldn't find any pay phone that took coins. They they only took calling cards and calling from. I don't know what that is.
58:55>> I had no idea what it was and I panicked. So, I turned my phone back on and I called him and the first thing he said was, "Oh my god, why are you calling from the phone?" I'm like, "I'm sorry. I panicked. I I Anyhow, so this is Barstow." He gives He's like, "Okay, well, once we're done talking, do not turn it back on again. They they'll track you down." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. I know." So, I get the ticket. I get on the bus. So now, by now, so 10:15 a.m. that Monday is when I started my escape. By now, it's like 100 p.m. And the bus I'm getting on to now from Barstow is going to Vegas. And then
59:35in Vegas, I have to change buses, which will be around 6:30 p.m. So I get on the bus from Barstow. I'm like, "Okay, I'm good now."
59:46We get to Vegas, it's dark. You know, I'm again conscious of my long hair and everything else. I'm like, I'll just wait till everybody else has gotten off the bus and then I'll get off. And I'm looking, I'm like, God, there's a McDonald's right there. I could afford a cheeseburger. Hadn't eaten in days.
60:03Literally, I had I was surviving on protein bars.
60:07>> Oh my god. And um so I go to get off the bus and I go to open the door of the station and boom, there's four people there.
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60:25And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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