0:01You know, Joe Rogan used to have this great line back when Trump like shortly after he first won where back in 2016, I guess, where he was like, "Donald Trump broke people. He broke people in one direction or another, but he [ __ ] broke them in half." And unfortunately, that literally includes the people in power and administrative positions of power within our government who may have been on one side or the other of that situation. The fact that, you know, they literally wouldn't listen to people on the ground. You can go argue with a [ __ ] wall here, but prior to Donald Trump coming down the escalator in New
0:47York in 2015 and saying, "The sending rapist, this whatever, we got to build a wall." Prior to that, the same people who are now not taking your calls were a part of an administration that was literally like the deorter chief, right, >> with Obama, >> right? They were I'm not saying all their methods were necessarily done the right way, but like they were quite literally on Donald's side on Donald Trump's side of the spectrum.
1:16>> Yeah.
1:16>> And then strictly because orange man said something, they now said it's like the guy the cop in the town.
1:24>> Yep.
1:26I don't, you know, it's maddening for me to hear this over and over again, but then to be on the ground. I don't know how you don't quit.
1:36>> Well, and again, you you kind of >> I felt worse for Border Patrol, quite frankly. Those guys were so demoralized during that time period because they were absolutely cut off at the legs. And so for us locally, we were just kind of like cuz we've it's been our problem forever, right? And and the funny thing is >> like Arizona's always been on the the line and uh we we kind of joke and say, "Yeah, we were doing it before it was like the cool thing to do, right?"
2:05Because now everybody focuses on the border, but we were dealing with the same [ __ ] for ever just in different aspects. Um so yeah, the border patrol really felt it because they were just demoralized and then they were getting attacked by their own leaders. Um you know, all the stuff the same stuff that's going on with ICE right now.
2:23>> Yeah. I mean, Rocco, we I had him in for episode 243 and we're trying to figure out getting him back in sometime soon, but he live, you know, he lived through these eras. And then after he left, obviously, he's still like intricately involved with some of the people there.
2:36Like he knows that whole issue probably better than [ __ ] anybody on the internet. And it's just like >> you can hear him like when he's explained it just it's like, >> you know, >> there's just like a cliff dive, >> right, >> that happens. And then it's it's maddening when then people are yelling at you for not doing your job. I mean, we see these videos where even like YouTubers will go up from that era.
3:00We'll go up to Border Patrol agents and the guy just rides away.
3:03>> Yeah.
3:03>> And he looks like the bad guy, >> but it's like [ __ ] 40 levels above him is all telling him he has to ride away and not talk to this YouTuber who's pointing out the [ __ ] 10 people who are walking across the border right there unabated. And and that was the beauty again of of working for a local sheriff and a sheriff's office is um we had what Mark and I had what we refer to as border patrol informants. And so uh during that time frame because um the administration under Biden was using the media to their advantage, right? and they were directing them on what the story would be and they were putting out
3:41these stories and so we had to become the truth tellers and scream from the mountain tops and and a lot of times it was like hey dude what's really going on and they'd be like all right here's what's happening so their numbers are [ __ ] times that by five and oh by the way this this and this and like all right cool we never talked and then we would go forward and be like here's what is actually happening and here's what our sources who are directly related to this problem are saying and here's what we're seeing in relation to that and so we would have to go out and but of course um much like so Mark got cancelled on
4:20this one where he came out and he said hey did you know that our government is giving Visa cards to these guys as they come in immediately he got attacked and they were like he's making this up it's fake news blah blah blah blah about two weeks later just off to the side like oh yeah there were some visas given and stuff but it you know it was NOS's don't worry about it and you know so [ __ ] like that you're just like what the >> I was just going to ask you about that and you just brought it up the NOS's >> I've heard about so many unholy alliances no pun intended literally like sometimes some Catholic NOS's
4:57>> right >> who are listen argue with the [ __ ] wall in my opinion there's no way that they don't know that they were literally working with coyotes, >> right?
5:09>> But they're, you know, these non-government organizations that have like free flow under the guise of religion, too. I mean, >> well, and and some of these people when you would talk to them, um, you would you'd feel like, >> how are you this delusional?
5:26>> But, um, honestly, when you get down to it, what here's what was happening, right? A lot of these people that were ground pounders for these NOS's, they really did believe that they were doing the right thing because Hitler, >> we're helping the migrant, right? We're we're helping this person that is just trying to get a better life. And we're like, dude, they don't have a choice in this game, right? They're they're a pawn and here's what you're actually doing.
5:54You are helping the cartels traffic humans. And they didn't see it that way.
5:59They they just felt that they >> I don't believe some of them.
6:02>> I I really don't. I'm I'm sure there's some that are just actually sober that they can't see what's sprayed right in their face.
6:10>> Yeah, we still have to bleep it. So, we'll make a mark of it, which is whatever. But, >> you know, I don't I don't buy that all of them are like that. I I I think some of them actually like are just evil people.
6:21>> Yeah. I would which the worst kind of evil person is one who operates under the guise of being benevolent.
6:27>> Oh, yeah. you know, and so I just have a special disdain for people like that.
6:30When I would hear those stories, it's like, you know, exactly >> where these people are going towards not ending up.
6:37>> When you get down to it, dude, um you know, when you have a person like that >> and >> I'm one of those guys that I've had a career of reading people, right, and and and knowing >> um or trying to know what their true intent was. And when you get a person like that, you I think you have a clear understanding of that is actually pure evil sitting across from me. That's not just some confused person or somebody who made a bad choice.
7:04>> Yeah.
7:04>> Yeah. I I don't you know, don't put me in a room with those people. That's all I'm saying. I've just heard the stories.
7:12Yeah.
7:13>> Something like that. We'll get that Louisville I was talking about out. But you know the the other thing that's always the insidious kind of you know quandry or conundrum with this whole issue is the involvement of the United States governments for national security purposes >> with some of these organizations. You know I I've had a guy Matthew Hedger sitting in your chair for episodes 275 and 290 who was a knock.
7:40>> You familiar with that term?
7:41>> Nonofficial cover.
7:43>> Okay. deepest level cover that a CIA spy can be. The only reason he was even on my show is because his cell was exposed by a foreign government on the dark web and they had to pull him from the field. [ __ ] got real. But >> that's some Jason Bourne [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. Matthew's story is like a movie. And I honestly I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't wasn't contacted by some of the people behind the scenes who were like, "No, no, this this is really it."
8:13And he got blown up here on the dark web as well. Like this is very real. But he he was basically pulled to a mansion literally like Jason Bourne [ __ ] and trained by a not quite billionaire but guy worth hundreds of millions of dollars who was a reputable United States businessman who unbeknownst to the rest of us in this country was a knock >> for the CIA and they would have like people come in and train him on specific things like at school like almost like Brad Pitt in that spy movie I forget what it's called >> and he was there for like a year and Then his job was to essentially just make go to bars and make friends with
8:50criminals. He ends up in a top four biker gang. His expertise he was trained in was money laundering. So what he would do, the whole point of this was not they're like we want you to be a criminal, but not because we want you to be a criminal because it gives a the best cover ever. As an example, what he would say is like with the biker gang, he's like biker gangs, you know, in in my case, there's some international stuff that goes on. So I fly to He would make up a country. He's like, "I fly to Hungary, right? I come in with [ __ ] six other bikers." The Hungarian FBI of course sees us come in and they're like,
9:26"Oh yeah, biker G, right? All right.
9:28Yeah, leave that to this department over here."
9:31>> They don't realize I work for the CIA, >> right? So when I take off my biker beard for five minutes on a Monday night and sneak out the back door to go meet with Vladimir or whoever the [ __ ] about some Russian nuclear codes he's handing me.
9:45>> I just did this entire thing just to get that five minutes of cover to get this information that has nothing >> to do with the biker gang.
9:52>> So long story short, he ends up from the biker gang doing that for a few years through them connects with the cartels.
9:59ends up deep undercover with the cartels, becomes one of their chief money launderers. The stories from that are insane.
10:05>> Yeah.
10:06>> But literally gets to the point where he ends up going into a bar with a top 10 banker at a top 10 bank from the United States >> and without blackmailing him, nothing.
10:18Just slowly works him and eventually convinces the guy to launder money for the cartels.
10:23>> That's crazy.
10:24And like now I imagine someone like you who's spending their life fighting this.
10:29>> Yeah.
10:30>> And then you know Matthew nice enough guy. I appreciate him sharing the story and everything. I you know he's a key on the cog here. But it's like >> then you hear we're doing stuff like this that helps allow facilitate these organizations to have more power.
10:47>> Yeah. for national security while also then in certain administrations [ __ ] over our national security by letting all the same people were allegedly fighting with those missions potentially get people through the border because it's what like how do you not throw your head through that wall?
11:05>> Well, we go back to Tommy G, right? You can't boil the ocean, but I just boil my >> I guess so. But that's >> you know dude and when you dive into this world writing especially after writing the book meeting different people that were in different positions at the same time doing different stuff some of them globally um and then them like putting pieces of the puzzle together for you. You're just like I think sometimes ignorance is bliss man.
11:33And um I am glad that like some of that stuff I didn't know at the time because I think it would have drove you crazy.
11:40But again, for me, I was focused on my mission uh at my level and just affecting what I could affect. And and does it piss me off that stuff like this happens? Yeah. And um again, you look at your own government and you're like, you bastards. You know, I look at Brian Terry, right? That was in our state.
11:59Brian Terry was a border patrol agent who got killed by guns that the ATF had given the cartels.
12:04>> Yes. Wasn't he friends with Roco? Didn't he know him?
12:07>> Yes. Cuz they're all from that any board attackers on that national level are all going to be connected. Yeah.
12:12>> That was Operation Fast and Furious. Is that right?
12:15>> Yep. Yep. And so Katie who did my forward for me, Katie Pavage.
12:19>> Yeah. In your book. We have it down in the description. You can check it out by the way. Good stuff. But uh Katie did my forward and she wrote a book about the Fast and Furious operation and the whole ATF debacle. And we were working these operations during that time frame. So when Brian gets killed and info starts coming out, we're like what? Like wait a minute, our government is now giving them guns. Can you for people out there who don't remember this whole scandal, can you just give like the high level what this was and when it was and what was going on?
12:54>> Yeah. Right. So, essentially Operation Fast and Furious was an ATF undercover operation where they were uh doing what they call walking guns. So essentially they were allowing the the cartels to uh buy guns in the US, particularly Arizona, straw purchasers and that type of stuff, and then ship those guns back to Mexico um under the guise of we're going to get them down there and try to track them and tie them back to the cartels. But all of these guns essentially start disappearing, right? And just assimilating into the cartels down there. Uh well, lo and behold, uh a border patrol agent in Arizona gets
13:36killed on an operation by and some of these guns get left behind at the scene because there was a whole firefight with a border patrol team. Uh bad guys take off, one of them gets shot. Uh they recover the guns, some of them, and they are fast and furious guns. So essentially the ATF had provided these to the cartel members who then use them to kill a border patrol agent.
13:57Couldn't see how that one would have gone wrong.
14:02>> Yeah. Yeah, that was And the funny thing was, you know, at the time, um, um, President Obama and Eric Holder, uh, did a bunch of deny, deny, deny, but we have I I have one of my good buddies that I did a lot of work with who was assigned to the DEA. Holder knew exactly what was going on. He was in some of the wire rooms where uh they were listening to wires where these transactions were happening. So they were fully aware of this whole thing.
14:32You know, sometimes I I I know the world is a very complex place obviously and some weird decisions got to get made sometimes and it's very easy for a guy like me in an armchair with no arms. I don't know, you know, to Monday morning quarterback everything. I try to think about that one though and wonder, you know, when they're drawing out the simulation of it to the best of their ability, what the percentage success rate was in their simulations because it couldn't have been high because you're not talking about, >> if I remember correctly at the time, like computer chipped guns or something like that,
15:10>> you know, >> the probability that these were going to get lost out there, which defeats the entire purpose of the thing, >> you know, had to be above 90%. % confidence interval.
15:22>> So, you're telling me it's worth it to run a five or 10% chance with something like this?
15:27>> Well, and the funny thing was >> there were agents that were right on track with what you're talking about that were like, whoa, Kings X here. This is not going to go well. And so, there were agents that were doing that and were getting shut down. And shut down like, shut the [ __ ] up or you're out of here. Like, we'll transfer you or you're going to retire early or you know that type of [ __ ] going on.
15:51And that's and that's you know the US sponsored US government sponsored one right >> but the gun running and crossber back and forth gun running that happens you know in defense of the US government now not necessarily >> literally by their directive allegedly >> you know is happening all the time and that was the documentary you made with Tommy G where you took him all across the border and explain >> and he was talking to a gun runner that was running guns out of Mexico and doing the straw purchasing and stuff. Yeah.
16:18>> Right. So what what's the nature of that these days? Like do we have any idea how many guns and what kind of guns are coming across our border and back and forth and like how does it how are they doing it?
16:29>> Um well the the straw purchasing is the big thing. So if people aren't familiar with that essentially somebody who can legally buy the firearm will go in they'll buy uh and sometimes they're going to different stores buying you know a couple guns here couple guns there and it's whatever the cartel orders up. So the cartel will order, hey, we need 30 AKs because we got a war going on down here. And so they'll order up 30 AKs. These gun runners will go fill those orders with with people who can legally purchase them. And those are your straw purchasers. So they're purchasing the gun knowing I'm not
17:02keeping this gun. Somebody has paid me.
17:04So if I'm paying uh uh let's say $1,000 a gun, um and what's happening on the back end of that is I'm getting 2,000 per gun, right? So, I'm getting my thousand for buying it and I'm paying a,000 for the gun and I'm getting my five guns and I'm immediately handing them off to somebody. So, I know I'm not buying it for my use. I'm buying it for somebody else. Um, so those straw purchasers will buy the weapon, hand it off. It gets handed off to the cartel operatives and then they sometimes they break them down and ship them south.
17:32Sometimes they leave them whole, ship them south. They'll smuggle them south.
17:36They'll smuggle ammo south. And uh it's all towards the the war with their own government down there. to the cartel versus the government or cartel versus cartel.
17:45>> I feel like what I'm about to say is a really naive thing to say. It is just where my head goes as someone outside the situation >> with all the political power that the cartels have in Mexico and the control they have over regions and ports and stuff like that in many cases. And then their economy of scale and how large they are and connections they have to rogue foreign governments or terror groups and stuff like this. I'm almost surprised that they're still doing this on a micro scale on the American side of the border or back and forth across that border, right?
18:20>> When, you know, maybe you could just call up Hezbollah and have [ __ ] you know, 10,000 of them shipped in. Am I thinking of that way too?
18:28>> I think they have better control, right?
18:30Because the one thing that people always discount is uh the strong ties between the US and Mexico when you're talking about the Southwest US, right? So, I'll give you for instance the the the town I currently work in. The north part of town used to be Mexico. The south part of town, I'm sorry, the south part of town was Mexico. North part of town was a US before the international border got moved down to where it's at now. So, the Hila River runs through Arizona. That is where the international border used to be, right? So, I had a a buddy of mine that I worked with and jokingly we're drinking one night and I was like, "Man,
19:05go back to Mexico." And he's like, "Man, this is Mexico. You [ __ ] moved the line." And I was like, "That's not wrong, right?" And so when you think about that, um, there's families that overnight like, "Oh, you're American now and they're Mexican." And so they move the line. Well, those ties are strong, right? So it's easy for the cartels to be like hey um let you know get them from people we know because like when you look at the money situation typically money runners are very well trusted within the organization because of the familial bonds and all that stuff and and just to take the conspiracy even
19:39higher here. Let's let's go let's add another piece to this. People also forget that there was a group of slaves that worked the railroads way back in the day on the US side, but they forget about the Mexico side. So the Chinese slaves were building railroads in Mexico and uh that was all this was back in the 1800s, prohibition, all that kind of stuff was happening.
20:03>> Chinese slaves.
20:04>> Chinese slaves. Yeah. So they built the railroads in America. They were building them down in uh Mexico as well. and some of those slaves stayed, right? So you have surnames in Mexico that are of Chinese origin. Now let's take that and look at it. So now you have familial bonds with China, right? And then you talk about the ports and you talk about the chemicals coming from China and Mexico as as uh there was one author that put it this way, Mexico becomes the knife that the Chinese are using on the US. Right? Right. So, Mexico becomes a tool for a much bigger global war that a lot of us don't understand are going is
20:42going on.
20:44>> Yeah, we've covered that as well in here. And like the way you talked about like all the what what was the term other than Mexican OTMs and we talked about like that darian gap and that whole thing.
20:56>> You know the probably the country that I've heard at least that has gified that system or did gamify that system the best of like the order of how to go through South America up to North America and get in and then take care of business was China. Mhm.
21:12>> I mean, there was we we had Nick Shirley in here a year and a half ago, long before the documentaries and all that, so he was less known at the time, but he did he recovered >> and had it for us, which that was pretty crazy, >> the literal Chinese directions that some of the migrants, big air quotes there, >> yeah, >> were caught with uh in this case by the Tijana California border. And it's literally full-blown almost like a manifestation >> like a usual a user manual for like a product >> basically of like you will start here then you will go here you will talk to this person here and then you will go
21:54here and then you will go there and then when they get into America they have the whole system gamified the same way you were describing about how people get processed and stuff like that to be able to end up somewhere where no one knows where they are which they probably end up either >> buying farmland somewhere you know right by conveniently a US Army case being put into indentured servitude on like a weed plantation, >> right?
22:15>> Or you know, there's probably a couple other scenarios there as well. And you know, then you have the whole concept that you're talking about where this becomes a reverse war from things in the past. I was even unfamiliar though with what you just brought up about the slaves, the Chinese slaves building the railroads >> because if you look if you look at Arizona traditionally, u like Ponchovilla used to run those routes way back in the day, right? So Ponchovvilla and and his crew would run those routes and smuggle back and forth across um the international line back then. Those routes are still used to this day. So it
22:48it's been going on, you know, you had prohibition. Um then you had when alcohol came back for the US, then they had to figure out some other commodity, right? So they they just switched commodities. Um but the Chinese played a big part in that. And people often forget, and I'm sure you've talked about this before, if you've talked about the China piece, is is China considers the West a forever enemy because of the Opium Wars. They think that we tried to wipe out their race and the we Americans are included like they they include us in the West. And so they feel that it's their forever job to wipe us off the face of the earth,
23:31right? And they are long game guys, man.
23:33So it's uh >> they are long game guys.
23:36>> We think about maybe tomorrow in this country. You know, our culture is that way.
23:42>> Yeah.
23:42>> There are a lot of the cultures around the world that play this game decades out and centuries out, >> right? And so tie that all back into the the huge migration that we had under the last um administration under the Biden administration and the theories of tipping scales by percentages of of nationality, right? And so how much nationality can we influx into a country so that we can shift the scales in our favor, right? So when you're talking about the Chinese game in the system, all of the Chinese that we were coming across were military age males for the most part, right? So all all that age
24:21group and a lot of them were dropping any form of identification, passport, anything, they were dropping that stuff as soon as they crossed over. So tell me what person would drop any form of identification if they plan good things, you know, >> totally innocent person, right? Would do that, >> right?
24:41>> That's that's what I would do. Yeah, I'm innocent.
24:44>> Yeah.
24:44>> But yeah, no, it's it's a huge >> it's a huge huge issue that you know that one I've heard I want to dig into some some people. Well, I mean, obviously you're on the ground in Arizona, so there's probably some stuff you're seeing, but I always heard about that one in California a lot, and I'd love to talk to someone about what that is today, if any of that is still happening. I got to imagine some of it is, but it's less >> and it so switch presidency again from from Biden to Trump 47.
25:15>> Um, and almost overnight a lot of that stuff cut off, right? Because policies shifted again.
25:21>> Sure. Sure.
25:21>> And so once those policies shifted, a lot of what I'm describing it went away.
25:28>> When did you first remember encountering I'll even say like not even the first like time you encountered it, but the first time you realized, whoa, this fentanyl is a significant problem.
25:43Oh man. um it probably would have been around 2019, right? And and uh some of it was intel briefs, right? So the the um the feds were kind of telling us like, hey, there's this new thing, right? Um and that's probably 2018 into 19. Hey, there's this new thing and hey, by the way, um you're going to see a shift in what the cartels are doing because of the legalization of weed. And so in Arizona, um, we saw medical come first and then med we had medical marijuana for about a decade. Um, and during that decade, we still saw meth and coke. And then when they went full legalization, um, that's when everybody started, and
26:29that's by that time you had several states doing it, right? Legalized weed, legalized weed, legalized weed. Um, they said the cartels are about to shift because that's cutting into their profits. uh they don't have control of that like they do they did the the old weed because that's all higher grade stuff right when you go into the medical marijuana compared to what they call like Mexican ditch weed um lower THC levels and all that out of the Mexican stuff than the high-grade stuff. So they said you're going to see a shift coming where they're going towards synthetics because um stuff that has to be grown
27:05has a growing cycle and a processing cycle. synthetics, they can just make 247 365. All they need is the chemicals.
27:12Um, and it's more profitable for them.
27:14And so that's when we started to see that shift to synthetics. So they that that's when meth and fentanyl really became the top two and everything else kind of dropped below that. Um, and then fentanyl 2019 is when we first started seeing like and this is this is starting to kill people, right? And then we get into 2020 and the funny thing was in Arizona and we only all of us in the law enforcement world we know our areas right that we're working. So in Arizona we were like yo yo yo all the other cops out there like there's this stuff and they're like nah man >> we're not seeing that. We don't see any
27:52blues. Uh we haven't heard any fentanyl.
27:55We're good. And we're like no no no no it's coming. like when we're catching pounds of powdered fentanyl, it's not staying here because we're a source state. Uh so stand by to stand by, right? So we started kind of uh sounding the alarm down in our area when we would go to national meetings for like sheriffs and stuff like, hey, there's this new thing coming. Um and then slowly but surely, right, it starts hitting the US and pretty soon it's killing tens of thousands of people. Uh because and they're not overdosing, they're poisoning because they >> like they're taking what they think is this thing and it's actually this thing
28:29and it kills them.
28:30>> Um and so it's not an overdose, it's a poisoning. And so we start changing the narrative on all that stuff.
28:37>> When did you realize China was in bed with the cartels on this?
28:41>> Dude, that would have probably been later on like around the 2020 2021 time frame. And again, that's when uh they started more discussing because again, you got to realize on the local level, a lot of times we're getting what the federal level is feeding us, right, for intel because they're they're doing the global intel.
29:00So in our debriefs with DEA or HSI, they would start letting us know like, hey, there's these connections uh that you guys need to be aware of.
29:09>> I understand China's emphasis on this because as you already laid out, reverse opium war, what the [ __ ] do they care, >> right? What I've never really, I think, been fully able to wrap my head around is why the cartels lean on it so heavily because they need clients who stay alive. But dude, if you So, have you talked to anybody that's hooked on fentanyl?
29:32>> Have you ever had anybody >> Not on the podcast, but yeah.
29:36>> So, um, if you talk to people who are fentanyl addicts, they are always chasing a better high. And the weird thing on the street is um when you talk to like a severe fentanyl addict, they're like, "Hey man, there's this new like up in Phoenix, there's this new blue that killed like 10 people, man. We got to get some of that [ __ ] cuz that's the ultimate high, right?" So, they're chasing that ultimate high. Um, and I think on the cartel side, the same reason they don't give a [ __ ] as to why they a female in front of a tree and throw her panties up is and the customer thing, I think they just it's a numbers
30:14game, right? You're not going to you're not >> they'll just keep finding new ones basically.
30:21>> God, that's dark.
30:22>> Yeah. I' I've cited it many times before, but that guy Ben Westov who wrote Fentinel Inc.
30:27>> Mhm.
30:27>> back in 2019 just fell into the story by accident and turned into a book. He went he did a Joe Rogan episode back then in 2018 or 2019 that really was like an eye openener for me. But >> well the so funny thing was I I it was I think it was 2018 I was on Tucker Carlson for Mark. So um Tucker wanted to do an interview. Um Mark couldn't make it. So Mark's like hey go do the interview with Tucker Carlson. I'm like all right cool. So we set up the interview and we're talking about just smuggling and that type of stuff. And he's like so you know uh Chief Deputy Thomas what is the next thing? And I
31:00said fentanyl. and he's like, "What is fentanyl?" And I'm like, "Well, you're going to have to look it up. It's this."
31:06But that's that's what's coming. Um, so the same thing we were trying to tell people ahead of time, like, "Hey, it's coming. You just got to get ready."
31:14>> This guy Ben, as a regular author, I always thought this was gangster. He just was like, "Well, let's see how easy this is to get." He got on a flight, went to China himself, >> went to like a factory, and he's like, "So, how much?" And it was basically like going to like a [ __ ] deli.
31:28They're like, "All right, you want a pound there, a half pound here? like, wow.
31:32>> Yeah.
31:32>> You know, it's obviously extremely risky for him to do, but he was he was like, "It's this easy to grab it. Imagine what they're doing on an official basis with the cartels." Yeah. Thief has it up here. I always cite that that book. It was just such a [ __ ] eye opener.
31:45>> Yep.
31:46>> But it has happened very fast. And I don't want to get lost in this. I always want to cite this as well. You know, [ __ ] the Sacklers forever for getting so much of our country addicted to pain pills. usually completely like through a doctor innocently in a way where they had an an injury and then got addicted to this [ __ ] >> I had a nephew go through it, >> right? So, we've all had people we know who go through something like this and then >> voila, they become a customer of something like this be because of that.
32:15It's like, >> well, and we saw it so on the ground to that point real quick. Um, >> we saw the pill addiction happen and the Mexicans's answer to that was heroin. um because the pills became expensive.
32:29Heroin was a cheap alternative. So the cartels pushed heroin quite a bit at that point and we started seeing more heroin than we had ever seen because it was the gap filler for the the pill addicts uh because they needed that opiate, right? That's what they were after was the opiate. So the heroin, the blacktar heroin out of Mexico that they were manufacturing became the gap filler uh in our area at least for that. So the pill addiction led to heroin addiction.
32:54Um, and then you fast forward to fentanyl and it's much easier. Uh, sticking a needle in your arm has a certain psychological thing to it, right? But taking a pill, we're trained to do that [ __ ] in the US. And so switching back to fentanyl where you're taking a pill made it an easy transition for the cartels.
33:15>> Crazy. Crazy.
33:16>> All right. I I got more on this just real fast. I got to go to the bathroom.
33:19So we'll be right back.
33:20>> Yeah. Me, too.
33:22>> What? So we're back now, by the way. So, what what have you guys been doing? Have you have you been able to do like some effective kind of undercover strategies without delving into proprietary information on the ground to try to stop the stem of of fentanyl in the US?
33:40>> Oh, man. So, yes and no. I mean, right, your your your operations. Um, I think we see the localized effect, but we've also had we had a big case that was a year-long case, wires attached to it, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, where we're listening to phone calls, we're doing all this stuff, right? It's a it's a big case. Um, case comes down, we do a bunch of indictments, smash a bunch of houses, take a bunch of cartel toes to jail, and two weeks later, they're [ __ ] back up and running, right? And so it that becomes very disheartening and you learn some lessons from it. But these guys um
34:18the other thing they're good at is adapting.
34:21>> So they will take our cases and they'll have their lawyers get every piece of a case that they can and they will pick it apart to figure out where their gaps were and they'll fix that for the next time, right? And they'll eliminate anything they see as a threat that that threatened them during that last case or caused gaps to happen. They'll eliminate that stuff and they'll move forward. And so we have to get better, they get better. We have to get better, they get better. Problem being on the government side of things, we're effectively limited by budget and uh what we can legally do, all that kind of stuff,
34:55right? And they're not they they're a for-profit criminal organization. So, um it's it's a tough fight sometimes. And we saw like with that particular case, we saw, okay, we're not having so we we just did that for a year and yeah, we took some people to jail and and took some dope and stuff off the street. We took some of their assets and made them our assets. Uh but what effect did that have moving forward? Um a two week, it gave us some relief for two weeks. And so from that we learned like let's let's change our model of how we do these long-term investigations. And so we branched that into pieces and uh um went
35:39more to a model of and and this actually you know if you read some of the crystal stuff and and some of the stuff they were doing overseas with top tier units uh it was kind of the same methodology.
35:50So we we kind of said okay that big long-term investigation is good. it got us some good results and like the feds were able to make some some global indictments off of that um and and chase some of the bad guys and put more years on their prison term if and when they catch them. Uh but on a local level um this is what happened and in that medium range of of maybe lieutenants and captains, this is what happened. Um so let's attack all three tiers, right? And so we'll have a long-term investigation, but attached to that, we're going to have small smash and grabs um and intel gathering and that type of stuff. So
36:28instead of just because what tends to happen is these large investigations, it becomes the overarching thing. And so everybody's focused on this long long-term huge investigation. All resources are dumped into that. And we said instead of doing that, let's let's have that happen in the peripheral. uh because we need that. But while that's happening, could you guys trickle down information that is not necessary to keep your case going forward? So trickle down information that we can action on and then at the local level, we'll do the smash and grab. So we would we would do a smash and grab on a crew and and uh take
37:10pocket trash and and intel and and get whatever we could off of them and we would feed that into the intelligence side, right? And so then the intel side would would put their stuff together and then feed it up to the investigative arm. The investigative investigative arm was the long-term piece. The intel people were the tie together. The ground level we were just nightly grounding and pounding and hitting people and taking them off, hitting people, taking them off. Much better effect. And then we started figuring out different ways we could affect them. Um they had these resupplies and so resupplies were for
37:45the scouts. And so the the scouts being up on the hills, they would stay up there sometimes for weeks on end. So they would be living up on a mountaintop for several weeks. Well, to do that, you have to have supplies, right? So there's logistics attached to that. So uh at first we didn't know what we had stumbled into when we would catch these loads going south. You'd catch a vehicle with trash bags. I mean big 55gallon trash bags full of food. and they're in the middle of the desert going south.
38:17Like the [ __ ] is going on? Like why are they bringing food out here? And so we start diving into that a little bit and we figure out that's a it's a resupply for the scouts. And so we had to start attacking their network in different ways. And so we figured out like well if the scouts can't eat and can't drink, they ain't going to stay up there. Um, and so, uh, we started taking their food and, um, started taking their water. And so, as we did that, then what would happen is they would get up on the radio and start complaining openly to their bosses like, "Hey, we need more food. We need more water. We haven't had
38:54whatever." Um, so much so that there was a couple of occasions, and this was rare. Uh, it was rare for it to happen in the first place and it was rare that it it happened while we were out there, but bosses in Mexico would get up on the line and tell everybody to shut up, do their work or they're going to pay the price, right? And so everybody would kind of get back to work and uh then on the federal level, the feds would tell us like, "Hey man, that was like so and so." Like what? That that was him that got up on the radio, right? So they would get a Mexico boss that would intervene every once in a while. So, we
39:27knew then we're having a good effect um by by doing this these smaller hits and just disrupting their network. And so, that's really what we focused on at that point was let's just disrupt their game as much as we can. We're never going to stop it. We knew that. Uh but let's disrupt it and uh and then if we can take people off, let's take as many as we can take off. Uh so much so that their network became rookies, right? So, we were taking off some of their more seasoned people >> and all of a sudden we had newbies >> on their side doing stuff um and making bigger mistakes and so we were able to
40:06exploit those mistakes more as we got new people. So, we would we continued to smash and grab smash and grab feed the intel up the big case was going on. We were taking off little people. We were taking off middlemen. um we were eliminating some of their tenur employees and uh causing >> employees >> causing rookies to do those jobs.
40:25Rookies were making bigger and bigger mistakes which would allow us to infiltrate even more. Um and it was it that became the model and we created a whole task force modeled that way and we actually had really good success uh doing that and kind of crippling their network. So much so that on a national scale they looked to Arizona and this was a a joint effort between um locals u state and uh feds like the border patrol and HSI >> and it was it was one big task force where we all sat at the table. Um I was I was in charge of the local like us the so um and then the the guy that was in charge of border patrol would be at the
41:06table HSI would be at the table and we would all agree as we briefed each week like all right this is the direction we're heading this week and we were much more nimble and got a lot more done. So it felt during that time frame that we were making a lot of progress at least at slowing them down and kind of jacking up their network. Obviously, the cartels are working with their own organizations on this side of the border and what they set up, what connections they have through Mexico, etc. But have you been able to also really identify other major criminal organizations on the US side who are directly getting supplied by
41:45them, whether it be for fentanyl or some of the other drugs we see coming across?
41:49>> Um, are you talking other countries? I mean, like, are they are they talking >> I'm going to make up an example that's not what I'm looking for, but like are they working with the Italian-American mafia?
41:58>> Oh, I got you.
41:59>> You know what I mean? Stuff like that.
42:01>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um every once in a while. So for us as locals again um those type of cases, not really because when you're talking like those international shipments or international partnerships that they have um or with the the bigger criminal organizations, i.e. let's just say the Italian mafia, that would be the federal level that is working those types of cases. So, a lot of times we wouldn't know beyond what we were dealing with in front of us, right?
42:31So, we're dealing with it here in Arizona. Would there be occasions where uh we would be working a case and the feds would be like, "Hey, this is connected to something way bigger, XYZ."
42:42Yes. um OMG or uh you know out outlaw motorcycle gangs um in different countries sometimes uh in the US street gangs in country um that were not necessarily American street gangs but uh international street gangs or criminal syndicates. Yeah, we would always >> hear of those uh but there was nothing that I worked directly where I could say like oh yeah we were we were connected to like the triads.
43:08>> Got it. Did you notice I mean you talked about it and I assume this also applies to present day the way you've been discussing it throughout the day but like you know with quote unquote Sinaloa kind of having control over Arizona with with on the US operations when it comes to cartels have you noticed things change in the wake of the years since like El Chapo got taken down and then especially since Elmo went down in 2024 and if so like what does that look like?
43:36>> Yeah. So the the biggest ch when just like any organization when uh um a longstanding leader is removed like not willingly there's a a power void. Um so when Chapo was uh taken out this last time um there was a lot of fighting going on just south of the Arizona border in New Mexico. Um and it was between two Soloa factions, right? Um and those two factions being um those loyal to Mayo and those loyal to Chapo.
44:11>> Um my understanding of it and this is just in conversation with CI confidential informants or um talking to people in the game, the the Chapitos in some people's minds are spoiled brats, right? considered like silver spoon kind of kids, right?
44:32>> And that Mayo's people are not that way.
44:34They're they're more of the the ground pounders, down to earth, right? And so when Chapo got removed, that's kind of the feeling that we had amongst >> the groups running Arizona was there immediately became two factions. And one faction was like, those are spoiled brats and they ain't running [ __ ] We're running this. And these guys were like, "We're the heirs of parent and this is our game because of our dad and these guys are full of [ __ ] right?" And and so it creeped into Arizona a little bit.
45:06Um but all of those battles really stayed below the the international border and they stayed on the Mexico side. Some of them were right at the border. like there were some um very long gunfights between those groups right across the Arizona border in some areas down by Cenoa in Arsenoida and uh um Ngalas area and we even had intel briefs that hey some of this may spill over uh just FYI because these two factions are waring and uh they're going at each other and some of it may spill into Arizona but in like in our county specifically never really you would have bodies drop here and there, but no like all out
45:47>> like when um was it Olda that got captured >> and and essentially Yeah. and they rallied the troops to get him back. Like you don't see [ __ ] like that on the US side.
45:57>> Have you seen any growing presence or noticeable presence in Arizona of like the new generation, the the Halisco New Generation Cartel?
46:06>> Yeah, a little bit.
46:06>> They're nasty [ __ ] >> Yeah, they are. They are. Uh they're very um they remind me cuz again been doing this since the early 2000s. They remind me of when the Zetas kicked off, right?
46:16>> Can you explain the Zetas to people who aren't familiar?
46:18>> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the Gulf Cartel was over in the Tamalipas area and and the Gulf Cartel had a uh essentially a militarized branch of enforcement that were all trained by the US military in fact. Um, so all that.
46:37>> Yeah. Yeah. So these these were the top tier Mexican uh military guys that defected over to be the muscle for the golf cartel, right? And so the golf cartel had the zetas as their their muscle. And then at one point actually 0000 is a good document or not documentary, a good show that is much like a documentary, right?
47:01It kind of shows us the rise of the the Zettas. So the Zettas go to work for the Golf Cartel and then at one point they're like, "Dude, why are we working for them? We can do this on our own."
47:13Right? So they become their own cartel.
47:15They split off from the Golf Cartel.
47:17They go to war with them and the Zetas become their own cartel. Uh and the problem with the Zettas were they upped the violence level extremely quickly and and they were mean, right? And so they they took it to a whole different level where like before you would have a a cartel dude get kidnapped and whacked, right? And and that would be it. Like kidnapped, shot to death, and dumped. Um >> that's the way to do it. Nice and clean.
47:45Well, I mean, you know that there was there were lines and so the Zetas crossed all lines and so they were like, "Uh, you killed one of our guys, so we're going to we're going to kill your guy, but then we're going to skin him, right? And then we're going to put them out in public." And all right, so now you skinned one of our guys back. So we're going to cut your guy's head off and we're going to take those heads and we're going to throw them on a dance floor to give everybody a message, right? And oh, you know what? skinning him dead. That's not that savage. We're going to take one of your dudes and
48:17publicly stake him and then skin him alive and videotape that [ __ ] Right.
48:22And so they kept uping upping the ante um with their war with the golf cartel.
48:28Um and then all these alliances shift through time, right? So like the enemy of your enemies, my friend. And so they would you would have the Zetas align with another cartel because that cartel was against the golf cartel. So they would align, but ultimately somebody always wants to be the guy in charge. So when they don't agree on that, then they go to war. And so then, wait, okay, now this cartel's at war with the Zetas.
48:50This cartel is at war with the Zetas. So then these two cartels will be like, "Hey, why don't we get together and fight these guys?" Right? So that went back and forth, back and forth. The Zettas eventually kind of faded out and a lot of that had to do with the Mexican government getting some of their leadership taken out. Um, and >> what was that again?
49:07>> The There's so much here. Well, the so the Zetta started to kind of fade off.
49:11And and why that happened is some of their top leadership was captured or killed uh on the Mexican side.
49:19>> And so as that happened, that started they started to kind of fade out. Um and then >> you move forward um and things kind of calmed down with all like the cartels were still violent and still doing crazy [ __ ] but there wasn't always this like oneupping thing. And um and going back to the beginning of the Zetta stuff, a lot of this was uh like MySpace was still around and uh YouTube, I know this will be hard for youngsters to believe, but YouTube was letting whatever Oh, yeah. YouTube, right? Wild West.
49:53>> And so, um there were open like there was one in particular that was funny as as hell, but I I know that heads rolled over this. one of the leaders of the golf cartel. Um, the Zetas were the first ones to kind of manipulate social media feeds in in this way is they took a they took a video and they made this guy and they they put somebody else's lips on him talking and he basically was like, "I'm a little girl. I'm a little girl. Like, I like it in the butt." And that kind of stuff, right? And so you see the face of a cartel leader on YouTube saying he's a little girl and and that he's homosexual. And you know
50:36they're using that as propaganda to put out there and basically challenging the golf cartel, the Zetta saying like there you go [ __ ] and what are you going to do about that? Right? And so there was all this crazy stuff going on during that time frame and it was like the wild wild west. And then so anyways you fast forward uh things kind of calm down.
50:55Well, we go through the whole Chapo thing and now you have CJNG who has come back to light and or has strengthened and they are looking very militaristic just like the Zetas were. So they're very structured, very clear, organized hierarchy and when you see them and you can find videos of them all over the place of of these um these guys, they're running armored vehicles, they're running uh what's referred to as a technical, right? So you have a 50 cow mounted in the back of a truck. They're running those technicals. They're all kitted out with camouflage and and full military gear and they look very much
51:34like a military unit, not a cartel. And so very dangerous.
51:39>> It's some of it is like I don't mean to like make light of it, but some of it's almost like cartoonish when you see it.
51:45You're like that can't be real.
51:46>> Like wait, no, that's the Mexican military. No, it's cartel, >> right? And they're very >> Oh yeah. A lot of machismo, a lot of pounding chess, and look at me and I'm better than that guy because look, we have more guns and we have more people and yeah, >> but you've seen some of this float across the Arizona border as well, like you know.
52:05>> So, not the um not not how they look, right? What we've seen is there is some CJNG incursion into the Sinaloa territory >> and what? Well, I mean, they're just So, for our purposes, I don't know that you overtly see it.
52:24It's when you debrief people and who are they aligned with and they'll tell you, "Oh, we're aligned with them or we're aligned with them." But we're also seeing some alliances between the Cinnoloans and the CJNG because again, the enemy of my enemy. So, you got to keep in mind that the Chapitos and the Mitos are fighting, right? Yes.
52:43>> And so, the CJNG is going to exploit that. So the the right now it looks like Chapo's peoples are aligning with the CJNG to fight the Mayo alliance um for control of of all those plazas there, right? And that directly affects Arizona because they're they're fighting for that. That's one of the plazas they're fighting for. So, uh, I would say that the CJNG is going to become more prominent with that alliance because they're, you know, they're kind of down here in Mexico and the Sinnoloans absolutely control that north end, right up where they're touching Arizona, whether it's myofaction or Chapo
53:20faction. They have a good stronghold there. And so, the CJ&G aligning with one of those means that that's going to dump into our state and we're going to see more of that. And I don't know what that equals. What what do you think of the cartels being declared officially by the US government terrorist organizations? And I say that because we're I don't know 8 months into this or nine months into this and obviously me Mexico is is a huge trading partner of ours. They're a large economy and a sovereign nation. But if we declare something a terrorist network in the past, you just hear and [ __ ] bombs going off everywhere
54:01>> and they're not. So like what what are your thoughts on this as like a policy stance versus it just being, you know, some symbolic gesture?
54:09>> Well, I we had been screaming for it for years. So I love that they finally did it, right? So from our perspective, we knew they were naroterrorists years back and we've been calling for this like let's let's call them what they are because when you have when you have criminal organizations that are skinning people alive when they're trafficking humans when they're doing to humans what they're doing fits all the parameters, right? And so, um, like it because I think it also, uh, one of the the pieces of them being naroterrorists and in that terrorist category is the seizure of assets associated with that.
54:51>> And so, one of the ways that America was having a good effect on jihadis was anybody that did business with those groups started losing assets, right? And so, same thing here, right? And so you have to think about why aren't we bombing Mexico?
55:06>> Um because despite us being shortsighted in the US, I think this is more of a long game thing where they are looking at okay, let's start affecting the people who are controlling the money or helping the cartels with the money because that's where you win, right? You take their money away and you're that's where you're having a good effect on them. So, I think there's that going on in the background where they're going after assets and it gives them the means to say like, "Hey, Julian, you're doing business with the Mexican cartel. They are classified as terrorists and so you just lost all your bank accounts and the
55:42US government now holds those." Right?
55:44So, I think there's that going on in the background. Um, which is helpful. And then I I don't know if it'll get to a point where we actually take military action. I mean, that's a delicate thing, right? because I I think a lot of people don't understand remittances either from the US and the effect that that has on the economy in Mexico.
56:01>> Can you explain that to people? We've had people talk about remittances in a bunch of scenarios in here, but for people who don't understand the full context of that visa v US and Mexico.
56:10>> Yeah. So, if you look at again, look at the familial bonds, right? Let's just talk Arizona and Mexico, right? So, uh the familial bonds between um people in the US that have relatives in the in Mexico. Um and and why the naroterrorist thing plays into that is because if we take military action, we'll disrupt this what I'm about to describe. Um and it could it could have a severe impact on the whole country. So remittances are essentially um the the easiest way to describe it is money being sent back to people in Mexico from people in the US. So that's essentially what it is. So uh money is coming from
56:49the US and it's going to Mexico. And if you ask one side of the aisle, that side of the aisle will say that's just people sending money back to their families in Mexico to support them. I don't disagree with that. I think that is part of it.
57:05Um, but the problem with only that statement and not understanding that it's a much bigger picture is I think I'm I'm not sure if we can pull it up or not, but I think remittances is still number two for Mexico um as their GDP.
57:21um uh behind I think either car sales or oil or car exports or oil.
57:28>> Wow. And so if you don't think that the um cartels are not in on that and using that as an avenue to get money back, right, uh down to Mexico, >> Mexico's remittances hover around 4% of its GDP, serving as a vital financial lifeline, especially for poor households with recent figures suggesting around 3.7 and 2324. Though the fluctuates slight this fluctuates slightly with economic conditions and peso strength.
58:00They are a major source of foreign exchange often exceeding tourism or FDI supporting basic needs education and health particularly in marginalized regions.
58:12I'm trying to see but it's it's it's junk.
58:17>> Yeah, >> for sure. We're trying to >> So and it had fluctuated as over the years as I paid attention to it. It fluctuated. it would it would go up um to like it was at one point their number two >> and we can't track all that. Right.
58:30>> Right. Right. For sure. Um so you you add that piece in too, right? And and we'll disrupt essentially you're talking about disrupting the economy of another country and potentially shutting that down.
58:42>> But what you're talking about is, you know, people hear the word terrorists and like we said, they think explosions and stuff, but you're talking about the critical infrastructure of put, you know, to put into place with something like this is more of a balance sheet war than a bombs war to start, >> right?
58:59>> Because of the nature of where they exist. Yeah.
59:02>> Because you got to you you've got to work on the organization itself, not just cuz I mean it would be easy to to go snipe or blow up with a predator drone the heads of these organizations, but that that's going to get filled again, >> right? So if you start crippling the organizations, start crippling their ability, money is their ability to buy people off, to buy weapons, to do all this stuff, right? um if you start crippling that and do I think there's going to be some head cartel dudes dying? Yes. As a result of this narot terrorist piece, I think they're going to start taking out some of those key players um with this
59:35naroterrorist designation, but I think it's all it's all kind of planned out so that one effect enhances the next effect.
59:44>> For sure. Did you like when you did your undercover work, did you do stuff across the border in Mexico?
59:52you with IIA or what?
59:54>> Am I what?
59:54>> Are you with internal affairs? Because uh >> is that an internal affairs question?
59:58>> I mean, I'm not supposed to cross the international border. I don't have any authority in Mexico.
60:01>> I don't know what the what the deal is there with you getting like depending on what task you're on.
60:07>> So, typically speaking, uh feds would do that more than locals. Uh every once in a while, if you're assigned to um certain federal agencies, you can do that. But no, I I have I been in Mexico by accident. Yes.
60:21By accident.
60:22>> Yes.
60:23>> But I just must have accidentally crossed that border.
60:26>> I'm just saying. Um not but not intentionally because I I didn't have any authority there. And and we wouldn't do operations cuz you have you really lose control when you cross that that border, right?
60:38>> Thank you guys for watching the episode.
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