The people things are unraveling so it's a completely different way of thinking about this man.
0:09Did you guys at any point in that conversation when this is coming out did someone suggest to call the police or something like that or was it assumed that it's like you know, this guy is powerful. We got to stay away.
0:23Well, we talked about it about contacting the FBI there were there was definitely talk about it, but nobody wanted to do it.
0:31We just wanted to what we talked about was just the best way to get away from him. So we didn't have to see him again.
0:38That was just what we spoke about. I'm not I'm not quite sure if she ever saw him again after that I've been thinking no cuz she moved away after I moved away and we all just try to get away from New York where he knew that he spent most of his time.
0:55And he would before this though. He would like call you you were saying too.
0:59So that would be a lot of the contact where he's like go meet with this person Hollywood or go do this audition and then ask you about it afterwards. That was a lot of your communication with him, right? Well, in person yes or maybe a phone call. That's when he was pretty serious cuz he's right to the point but sometimes it would be the secretary's calling for things and you would you would have the chance to say no or I'm out of town or tell him I'm out of town. You know, and maybe they would just try to hound somebody else to do something. You know, I never really thought that those horrible things were
1:30happening. I just kind of thought okay, if he sent me for an audition and I was assaulted or somebody tried to have sex with me that it was just that separate situation between the two of us. I had no idea that it was because of he was sending me for that reason.
1:45I just knew when I got back I always thought it was strange and even at Capitol Hill when I talked to all the girls and we sat down I would say did he groom did I would say did he ask you whenever you got back from meeting with anyone exactly what happened? They were like, "Oh my gosh, he wanted to know exactly every single detail of everything that happened from the moment you sat down with him and talked to him, how he how he approached you, if he tried to assault you, if he tried to you know, what he said." Every single one of them said the same thing and we're just like, "Wow."
2:18That's what I always thought because I always thought it was weird he would ask me so many questions about one little incident incident about one stupid audition.
2:25You know?
2:26But then there were girls sent to the same audition.
2:31So you So let's take a director, right?
2:32He's getting auditions from Innovative Artists and Abrams Artists and all the different agencies they're sending, you know, their talent to specific specifically for this role. But then Epstein is sending 10 girls.
2:47>> Yeah.
2:48>> There's a difference that he's sending these 10 girls, you know, for an audition. He's not a movie agent. You know what I mean? So that should have been the first red flag right there. But people are introduced to directors, doesn't matter who you are. Um I think back then I was just excited to go on audition with a really big director, right? Yeah.
3:08>> I'd asked you earlier where people maybe if they aren't abused learn to groom like that and you said someone has to teach them.
3:20And there is a lot evidence that one of the people who taught Jeffrey Epstein about the stuff was Adnan Khashoggi, that's a separate issue, but what you're saying right here and I'm not saying this to make light of it at all, I'm just drawing a parallel is a six sadistic version of like an NFL coach watching a lot of tape and learning every single thing about the other team. When he would call you and ask in my opinion just hearing you describe it and ask you about every single thing that happened, he's studying to >> see what the other person does or if they were cuz you said he would say to you like oh he didn't do anything or
3:55something like that and then he'd be like disappointed or something. So the disappointment might have been so sick that he's like oh my god they weren't good enough to get her to do something like >> Yeah, could be on that.
4:06>> Oh that's a level of depravity that's a little beyond beyond the pale. Wow.
4:16Have you Have you followed Did you follow the Diddy case at all?
4:20>> Yeah. Mhm.
4:23>> Did any of that surprise you?
4:25>> With Diddy?
4:26>> Yeah.
4:27>> Well I mean in the early 2000s Diddy was around a lot and everybody knew about his parties you didn't want to go to. I mean there were the white Well there were the white parties you know.
4:37I mean I went to a white party. I mean everybody wanted to go to the white parties but like um you know the after parties I never went to or um most people I know didn't go to those and and they had a reputation of you didn't want to go to those parties. So that was very well known back then.
4:53I also knew like a club club owner that used to say that you know he's gone to those parties and and you know about the bisexuality and things of Diddy and stuff. It was pretty well known back then.
5:06>> Very open.
5:07>> Yeah it was it was pretty well in the music industry back then.
5:10Um that a lot of those men were doing those types of parties and stuff. So the different The difference with with Sean Combs is that he drugged There was a lot of drugs around.
5:18>> Yeah.
5:19>> And with Epstein he liked you to be very present and there was never any alcohol or drugs around.
5:24>> So you never saw him drink or anything like that?
5:26>> Or he would never give you drugs or alcohol.
5:29>> Mhm.
5:29>> He wanted you to be present. And he hated drugs and alcohol.
5:33>> Yeah.
5:33>> Like he looked down on you if you did them.
5:37You know that's the difference with P.
5:38Diddy. I think he There was lots of drugs and alcohol involved. I mean I think there was even drugs in the baby oil.
5:43>> Mhm.
5:43>> So I think there was it was very different Um environments.
5:49But still, you know, say it is abuse, you know.
5:55>> Yeah.
5:56Now, when you met Virginia Roberts Giuffre years later, right?
6:00>> Mhm.
6:01>> Well, actually, before I get to that, cuz you've mentioned it a few times today, I think we should talk about that. When when he first Did you know that he got arrested in '07, '08, and that case happened? Were you aware of any of that?
6:18>> Yes, of course.
6:19>> At the time?
6:20>> Mhm.
6:21I just didn't follow it closely.
6:23>> Okay.
6:23>> And I didn't pay like a lot of attention to it.
6:27I definitely didn't pay a lot of attention to it.
6:29>> So, you didn't know the details of like there were 43 12- and 13- and 14-year-olds coming forward?
6:33>> know that then?
6:34>> I don't I don't think so.
6:35>> No, I just knew that they were underage girls, and then I would speak to some of my friends about it. Gosh, did you know that Jeffrey was with an underage girl? And then And then I um I had to remember there was this one time that my girlfriends and I we flew on a on the airplane down to like West Palm Beach, and we were supposed to be going to Miami. We ended up in West Palm Beach. And um I remember one of the girls, Rina Oh, these have been pretty outspoken.
7:04>> I remember her.
7:04>> And yeah, Rina called Jeffrey and was like, "Oh, we're stranded in West Palm, you know, we need a we need a ride." And he had he organized a car to pick us up to take us to Miami.
7:14And when we got into the car to take us to Miami, there was a really young girl in the car.
7:20And I remember we were just like, "Why is she here? Like, that's so weird."
7:25Um and I remember we'd always spoken about it. Why was that young girl in the car? And then now we know why there was a young girl in the car. But um that was the only thing that I ever saw that would I would never ever thought that he was into anyone underage.
7:42He was very, very adamant of any of the girls that were around were over 18, and that's what I always saw.
7:48>> Mhm.
7:49>> And that was That's what I always thought anyway.
7:52They could have been under age, but I I never knew.
7:54Um the girls on the island I found out were under age, but I never knew then that they were.
7:59>> The ones you were there with?
8:00>> Mhm.
8:01I never knew they were I mean I'm sure maybe they were told to lie and say they were over age, or we probably just didn't talk about it.
8:07>> That's the thing. That's the thing about like the blackmail and stuff like >> Mhm.
8:13>> All you got to do if you want to blackmail someone like that is Let me think about a really blatant example because I I don't know how this would work, but you have rooms camera'd up.
8:25Some guy goes in to have what it, you know, even on camera might appear to be consensual sex, but let's actually assume it's not, but it might appear that way. In a court of law, he might be able to make the argument.
8:36But if someone comes in afterwards and pulls out the driver's license or the passport or whatever identification of that person and just holds it up to the camera, you're [ __ ] >> Yeah.
8:47>> It's done.
8:48>> Mhm.
8:49>> And so there are people because it's so hard to skim through all this and be like, could this person be innocent?
8:55Could everyone just looks guilty? And you And you just want to go off with all your heads. But there are people who have said, like people who are viewed as as perpetrators of this stuff who have said exactly what you just said, which is I always saw him with young women, but I never saw him with a 12- or 13-year-old or 14-year-old or something like that. They were always of age. And so I was like, all right, what whatever.
9:17And it's like when I hear people say that, I'm like, I could see how the fog >> Mhm.
9:24>> sets in, but to me it's like looking at it from their perspectives.
9:31All right, you go into an island with the guy, >> Mhm.
9:33>> and it's you and him and like a few housekeepers and like [ __ ] 10 women.
9:38Is that not a little weird?
9:40>> Yeah, exactly. Do you even even just even just the 16 to 22-year-olds that are on the island.
9:46You know, it's a little weird to have a whole bunch of young girls on the island, you know. And do do do these men even know that their passports are taken away and they can't leave until he says they can leave?
9:53>> That's crazy.
9:54>> You know, stuff like that.
9:55>> Who took your passport again?
9:57When >> Well, um well, Epstein would take the passports of the girls when you go to the island.
10:03>> Personally?
10:03>> Yeah, so you so you can't get away.
10:05Yeah.
10:08>> Oh, man.
10:10>> Yeah.
10:11>> What >> Yeah, so people don't know all this stuff is going on. And then you don't really know which men knew of young girls or the really young girls.
10:18You just don't know until you read the files and you do an investigation, you know? I mean, you have Bill Gates saying, you know, I had sex with a Russian girl. Was it a 16-year-old Russian girl or was it a 22-year-old?
10:29You know?
10:32I mean, she's not coming forward. But like what do you know? You know, you got a STD from her, you know?
10:39>> God was staying >> Then you're trying to hide from your wife. I mean, I love Melinda Gates.
10:43>> Oh, she's going hammer on >> her. She's just going off. And that's what we need. Women who say, you know, enough is enough.
10:49She's an Epstein survivor, you know?
10:52>> I well, yeah.
10:53>> She survived him.
10:54>> Yeah.
10:54>> You know, because her husband was locked in there saying all these years, oh, I just don't know that guy that well.
11:01>> The best line ever. He's like, well, he's dead, so.
11:04>> Yeah, he's dead.
11:06Yeah.
11:07You think you think all your skeletons in your closet go away just cuz he's dead?
11:10>> That's not an answer, my man.
11:13Oh my god. Oh, it's so bad.
11:17>> It's so bad.
11:17>> What When did you Did you not meet Virginia Roberts Giuffre until 2019?
11:22When >> Yeah, well, I never actually met her in person. I've only spoken to her on the phone a few times. Yeah. I reached out to her because she spoke out in 2019 about Prince Andrew.
11:32>> Right.
11:32>> And I reached out to her because I knew of two things about Prince Andrew and I wanted just to corroborate her story or support her.
11:40The first one was seeing him on the island and the second one was my girlfriend who she was made to have sex.
11:46And she told me it was a prince.
11:48>> Was that the one who went into the room and came back and blew the whole whistle?
11:51>> Yes, that was the one.
11:53>> And that was in the in the mansion?
11:56>> Well, she had told me it was a prince and I said I met a prince on the island.
12:01>> Yeah.
12:01>> And so we put two and two together.
12:03>> Yep.
12:04>> Um and then Virginia spoke out and said she was abused by a prince.
12:07And I you know, during during those years I started speaking out. I didn't really have a support system so I reached out to the survivors, Virginia and the other Mariska and the other girls that were um there and um started talking, you know, with them about our stories and how it lined up.
12:25It was the same years. So.
12:27>> What cuz you were you said you were at least aware a case was happening in '08 when it was happening, '07, '08.
12:34In 2019 when he got arrested, obviously the story went crazy mainstream and that is a big difference here. They kind of like shoved the other one under the rug when it was happening. What made you go, "Whoa." And have it all like have your moment and when was that moment where it all came back and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] I was trafficked, assaulted, all this stuff and I've never talked about this."
12:56Like what was that moment?
12:58>> Well, the trafficking, the assault, all that stuff took years to come out. Um so there wasn't that moment but there was a moment when he died when everything came like off my shoulders.
13:08>> Mhm.
13:09>> With him dying was when I was finally able to say, "Okay, wait a second."
13:15I had a I had a just a reaction to it that just was it was really profound so I wanted to to know answers and I wanted I just wanted to know like like what was going on. There was so many things back then.
13:29And I just wanted to reach out to people and and try to, you know, understand the story. And that took took several years because when I spoke out in 2020, 2021, you know, it was really to support other survivors in their stories. It wasn't even like I didn't even really get into my story yet. Um that came a little bit later with being deposed for things and talking about it. The Epstein fund, I started talking a little bit more about it. Um the more I started >> Epstein fund? What is that?
13:55>> was this, you know, Virgin Island Epstein fund. I didn't get a payout or settlement of it, but a lot of the survivor 200 something survivors did.
14:02Um but I have but I was um I did go and tell my story.
14:07That was almost like, you know, like almost being re-abused again because those women were not empathetic at all.
14:13And so I kind of shunned away from telling my story. So it took me some time to get there.
14:17Um >> When did you start therapy?
14:21>> Two years ago.
14:22So it took some time.
14:24>> Yeah.
14:24>> So not at all, right >> no. I did start therapy right after that, but it didn't really work for me.
14:29It was just talk therapy and it didn't really do anything for me, just talking about stuff.
14:33>> What was different about the therapy you started 2 years ago?
14:35>> that I got 2 years ago was EMDR therapy.
14:39>> What's that?
14:39>> EMDR is when they use like a a flashlight and they go back and forth like this and your eyes go back and forth like this and you go into that kind of like memories that are stored and you bring those up and you talk about them and then you kind of restore them. So it's like this this kind of like hypnotherapy.
14:58It's very popular with uh trauma victims. And um it works it works. And um it's very traumatic to bring bring these new actually old thoughts and memories back, but then you kind of come at car compartmentalize them and um take them delica- delicately, you know, sensitively to talk about them and then kind of put them back. And then there's pulse pulsating things in your hands that so the memories are going back and forth in your head, the flashing lights, the music. And so it's going back into that part of your memory that's suppressed.
15:37And trust me, mine was deeply suppressed in there.
15:40>> Oh, yeah.
15:41>> So it took a little bit of time, but you would definitely have outbursts and you know, moments of like breaking down and crying fits and things like that trying to get through it because you don't really want to go there as you're starting to re-remember things.
15:57And unfortunately, it goes into your childhood and um the abuse maybe that you had in your childhood that you don't really want to talk about because I tend to be like, "I had the best childhood. I traveled all around the world and I had everything I wanted."
16:11>> I've always said that, you know, but EMDR taught me, "No, girl. You did not have the best childhood. You did not have a support system.
16:18You didn't feel safe. You didn't have the emotional capacity to, you know, be loved in the way that you needed." Like my parents bought me everything I needed, you know, and they will say today, "Well, you know, and when you lived in New York those eight years, you know, I came there gave you 15 grand for your for your divorce, you know, I was there for you." But I'm like, "I lived there for eight years.
16:41You never came. You never helped me out for eight years. You came one time in eight years."
16:46You know, that's not the love and attention and what I needed then, you know.
16:50You know, the type of people who say and all these things that you did wrong but never gave you that support to make it better, you know.
16:57To leave your child in in survival mode and which is I I was in for so long.
17:02You know, and so EMDR taught me, you know, you didn't have a safe place. You didn't have that love that you needed.
17:10And granted now I have it with my children, so I had to bore people to get the love and support that I needed and trust me, it's the best love and support I'll ever have.
17:20Unconditional love.
17:21So, I do have it now, but um EMDR therapy, it's it'll take you by the balls and like makes you really look deep and hard at things. But, because I had that was the reason why I'm able to be this person in front of you that's powerful and brave today. If I didn't have EMDR therapy, I would never been able to be this person in front of you.
17:42I needed some type of a hard therapy. Um and to be able to hold space for people in my podcast of their, you know, traumatic stories.
17:51I I go to EMDR um on Wednesdays for 2 hours for myself.
17:57>> doing it?
17:57>> For myself, and on Thursdays I go for the survivors, you know, I go for their stories because it's traumatic >> Oh, so they do you guys do it in a group setting?
18:07>> No, I go for myself just to work on what Lisa needs to work on, personal stuff, and then after I work with survivors and do this, you know, this work is not easy to talk, you know, you're doing it with me, talking to survivors and hearing their stories, especially in domestic violence and stalking and all the things, child abuse that we go into on my podcast. I have to go to EMDR therapy to deal with the trauma from others.
18:31>> Yeah.
18:32>> I'm taking on their trauma because I'm the one sitting there crying where they're the bold and brave ones talking.
18:37So, you know, it's a lot of work. I'm surprised you're not in therapy for it.
18:41>> I think, you know, I I get to talk with so many different types of people. I do all different types of content.
18:51And thank God because if I had to do I mean, this is amazing today, but if I had to do one like this every day, I I probably would be in therapy because you do really, first of all, there's like a great delicacy to one like this because I don't want you talking about things you don't want to talk about. There's also cameras rolling and everything, too, and I want you to feel comfortable and all that, but I'm also trying to understand something that's not possible for me to fully understand, but do it enough that I can get it to a place to where you can at least share an experience that other people out there can be like, "Oh my
19:32god, wow. I never thought of it that way." Or something like that. And when you do that, I mean, these aren't happy stories. You know what I mean?
19:43>> But they're so important to tell. Like you just said it. Like so people can understand and think, "Oh, I never thought of it that way." That's the whole point of doing it. It's for you to get a better understanding of how things work. How how these master manipulators operate, how people groom, how they how they can sexually assault you over and over. Why do you keep going back? All these questions, you know? And so people can really understand, you know, the complexity of of abuse, especially when it comes to a serial predator like an Epstein, you know?
20:17>> Even just like a Cosby, you know? Even understanding how these actresses went to go meet with this guy and how they were drugged and raped and don't even know what happened to them.
20:27>> Right.
20:28>> You know? How how everyone has their like MO and and how they can get away with it for so long. I I speak out for those reasons.
20:36And also, the other half of it is because I want to be there for survivors. And I I'm always representing hundreds, if not thousands, of survivors every time I step up on Capitol Hill, every time I'm on the podcast, every time people send me hundreds of messages all the time.
20:51>> Right.
20:52>> I was just in Ireland. You know, all the messages that come in from people in Ireland who are like, "I have something I want to tell you." You know? And just like getting it off their chest.
21:01>> Yeah.
21:02>> Like this is something that is a a huge, massive movement that's happening right now where people are actually being aware for the first time, speaking it out loud of their abuse that they had. Because we all, one in three, one in four, have had some type of of abuse.
21:19Whether it's just like your narcissistic girlfriend.
21:23You know, you know, yeah.
21:24>> All different forms?
21:25>> There's all different forms of it.
21:26Absolutely. You know, and to really the worst forms of it.
21:29>> Yeah.
21:29>> Yeah.
21:30>> When you were doing What's it? EMDR? It's called. When you were doing EMDR for the first time in 23 or 24, 2 years ago when you were doing it.
21:39And it made you look back on your childhood and everything. This is also, if I'm not mistaken from what you explained earlier, this is also since you kind of ceased having a relationship with your parents.
21:51Right? And your parents, at least the way I understood it, please correct me if I'm wrong.
21:57It kind of stemmed from them not being comfortable with you talking about this or sharing your experiences, and they kind of abandoned you from that.
22:06Did that make it I don't know if the word's easier, but give you a clearer path to maybe look at your childhood differently through the lens of this therapy because you were now past the point where you're like, "God, at a moment I needed them the most, my parents literally said, 'You're gone.'" >> Yeah, at the moments I needed them the most, they were they weren't there for me. That was the years when I lived in New York City, when I had three young children.
22:32They weren't there for me.
22:33>> Mhm.
22:33>> Um And then I I'm not to say they don't have their reasons, but I mean, I'm their child. There's never any reason in my book. I There's no reason that I'm going to turn my back on my child.
22:44They're they they can There's never anything they could do. So, I don't understand that. Um I did ask my mother, uh I did ask her, and I think it was 2023 in January. Um there were some text messages that went from my mother to an ex-boyfriend who had seen me on a documentary and had had reached out to me, you know, and had formed a relationship with me and he pretended like he was a friend and um my parents had met him and you know, he was a really good Christian guy.
23:18And um and after getting to know him, um he was very clear that he wanted to to abuse me.
23:27You know, he wanted to have a threesome with me. He wanted to choke and spit on me. He wanted to do all these sexual things with me and I didn't want to have a relationship with him.
23:35And I don't know, my mother for some reason took his side cuz he was like this good Christian man and on paper he was like this good guy and she didn't understand why I didn't want to have a relationship with this guy even though I was trying to tell him he was abusive.
23:49So, we had this big falling out over this this particular man.
23:52>> Did you tell her what he wanted to do to you?
23:54>> Yeah, I I did tell her, but for some reason a lot of parents, I don't know. I I've come to realize a lot of mothers want their daughters to be in a relationship no matter if it's abusive or not. They want to have that relationship where, you know, this wealthy man is taking care of you and your family. Oh, he said he was going to take care of your kids and put them through college. Yeah, Mom, but he told me he wanted to choke me and spit on me, too. You know, so there was this all this crazy stuff going on with this person who had definitely groomed and manipulated my mother.
24:24So, long story short, um I'm just trying to explain why I don't speak to them anymore. Um >> Yeah, I know. It's clocking for me.
24:32>> So, things were things weren't weren't good with my parents after this relationship with this particular man.
24:37Then 6 months went by and so January comes about and I'm looking at my phone and text messages are coming in from my mom, but they're not to me.
24:46They're to the other guy that I'd broken up with 6 months earlier. And I'm like, "Oh, that's funny. Why is she texting him?"
24:52But I read the text messages and she's telling him how I should have never have left him and he was the best thing that ever happened to me, and shame on Lisa.
25:01And so, I finally had the guts, because normally I'm just like, "Oh, my mom, you know, she just must be a bad moment or something." I was always sticking up for her. But, in this moment, I hadn't spoken to her in a while, and so I said, "Oh, Mom, you know, why are you talking to this person like that?
25:16You know, and I can clearly see that you're saying, you know, "Oh, I don't even talk to Lisa anymore." And I'm like, "Well, I didn't know you weren't talking to me anymore, and you know, that's news to me." And I said, "Well, what's the problem?" And she goes, "Well, I'm ashamed of you."
25:30And so, she wrote it. I can read the text message, you know, "I'm ashamed of you."
25:35And I was like, "Oh, that's funny.
25:36You're ashamed of me, but you're not ashamed of this guy who's like sleeping with you 70-year-old, you know, ratchet call girls, you know?
25:45Um which I had like eight pictures I sent to her of him with these ratchet call girls.
25:50Like, this came out about him, but she was ashamed of me, you know, who's this mother of of kids who was just trying to be in a a real relationship. So, it's just all this stuff came out where my mom clearly said, you know, like, "I'm ashamed of you." And that was the last text message I ever got from her.
26:07It was the last message, and that was January of 2023.
26:11And so, for me personally, that was the hardest relationship I had ever had to let go of.
26:17Um it took me a year to deal with the fact that she didn't want to be in my life.
26:23Um she wanted to be in my life to everyone else around, you know, to pretend like she was in my life. That's how she really felt about me.
26:32>> On her terms. That's it.
26:34>> Yeah. And it was hard for me. Um so, I needed that EMDR therapy really bad to be able to me, that was the biggest heartbreak of my life, because not only did that did I had to let go of her because of her and her flying monkeys and all the other people I had to let go of, my aunts and my cousins and my my my um my sisters and brothers because, you know, that she, you know, infiltrated to them, you know, how she thought about me and I didn't have a chance to like save myself.
27:05And so now I'm had to deal with this um through this therapy.
27:11Took me a long time. It probably took me a good year and a half to finally get to the point where my therapist is trying to drill in my head, you know, your mother's never been there for you. She's never supported you. She's never probably really loved you the way that you needed. You need to move on from this. And so I finally got to the point probably was more recently where I'm just at the point where I'm like, you know what?
27:30If you're not good for me, if you're taking other people's sides than your own daughter, like I have to step away.
27:37So I got to the point where I was creating these boundaries finally for the first time in my life.
27:42I'm there now. I'm I'm literally locked in now. Like nobody's coming in unless you are really fully supportive of me.
27:49And that means anyone who's even trying to be in a relationship with me, any man, nothing.
27:53So, you know, of course, because of that reason I've been single for a few years um um leading up to a year ago.
28:01And um you know, just had to create these boundaries.
28:05And but that gave me actually for the first time that power to take my power back and be like, you know what?
28:12I'm only going to have people that love and support me around me. Which meant there wasn't that many of them.
28:17Uh and then I had to go find the people that love and support me like you, another podcaster, is another survivor, is another people that we've formed now this real family, you know, of support system um that's beautiful and I never really had before.
28:34>> I'm I'm sorry that happened and that's uh whenever I hear that and I know like Dave can speak the same way like it just makes me feel really lucky. Like I >> You were so lucky you have great parents, you know what I mean? Like You're very lucky.
28:47>> It just >> I had another guy in here talked about his mom on her the fourth husband or third husband, I can't remember, was like the main one from his childhood, some abusive stepfather.
29:00And there was a day where she told him "I love you, but I love him more."
29:09>> Mhm.
29:10>> Which means she she didn't love her kid.
29:11That just like doesn't even process to me and hearing what your mom says, like literally taking the side of abusers and my dad, you know, I think I kind of was like getting at this earlier, but now that you've gone back in therapy and like looked at this, do you feel like your mom maybe never loved you or she just doesn't know how to show or feel love?
29:36>> Well, I think that I was always aware of it. You know, I was I was always aware of it, but I never wanted to admit it.
29:42>> Mhm.
29:43>> You know, I never really wanted to be fully abandoned by her, so I didn't um that was actually the third time I'd seen messages like that that accidentally went to me or that I'd seen. It was a third time.
29:56And so the first couple times I just oh, it just can't be true. It was just a mistake or you know, she can't really feel that way.
30:04But by the third time I was like, Lisa, wake up. You know, this this person's not on your side and I had to realize that.
30:11You know, but when when they make it look like to everyone else that you're the problem and not them. And that I feel this way and she's the one who doesn't want to be in my life. No, it's not really that way. I'm the one who I feel like I was always desperately wanted my family to be in my life and be supportive like I feel like I am of them.
30:30Um but we don't always choose our family.
30:33You have a wonderful family and you're so blessed for that.
30:36>> Yeah. You don't >> is the most beautiful thing in the world, but it's the reason why I dedicated my life to my children to be the best thing for them. And my And my kids know that that mommy is like 100% 100% for them and they feel safe.
30:51You know, they feel really safe. And that's I think what all kids really really need is to feel safe.
30:56>> Well, that that that's a 100% true and also like that's the best case scenario. Like what you don't want to do is continue the cycle.
31:06>> Yeah.
31:06>> The The brave thing is to be able to and the right thing is to be able to break the cycle and be the opposite of all the things that you were missing. And it sounds like obviously you're doing that. So, that I mean that's the silver lining on the other side. Doesn't change that these things happening. I'm sorry about that.
31:23>> Well, people love in different ways. I mean my parents were very functional.
31:26You know, they gave me everything they wanted. We traveled around the world. I mean I had trust me everything I ever wanted, you know, and they were great parents. So, I always had that like narrative all the time like I had the best upbringing, the best childhood. I lived on a boat and I did all these things, you know. But then it's like my therapist like, "Look, lady, wake up.
31:44You didn't have emotional support."
31:46"Give me a reason Give me a time when you had emotional support." I never had to realize I never had it. I spent months away. You know, I never knew how to miss people.
31:56Like I would I didn't know how to I didn't have that emotion of missing someone. Like I would go away for 3 or 4 months at a time away from my family and I never missed them. I would have friends or roomies roomies, you know, who would be like, "Oh, I just miss my mom so much. I miss my dad. My dad's everything." They'd get little notes from him or I miss my boyfriend. And I never really had it someone to miss.
32:18Like I never had that feeling of missing.
32:21You know, I only had it like in the last year. I finally met someone a year ago.
32:27You know, who we have this wonderful friendship. You know, that this this foundation of you know, just safety.
32:37Like finally, for the first time in my life, the first time in my life, and I'm in my 40s now, a safe relationship that isn't based on knowing that guy just wants to sleep with me or just wants my body.
32:48You know.
32:49Which is, you know, a lot of women have this type of relationship with men.
32:53>> That is the ultimate compliment from a guy's perspective, the number one compliment that you can ever get from a woman is when they say, "I feel safe with you."
33:03>> Yeah, right.
33:04>> And that's true.
33:05>> This Is it true? Yeah.
33:07>> And I you know, I'm sure that sometimes there's people who take advantage of that, which is awful, but it sounds like you've you finally found something where you genuinely feel that way and have seen that exhibited over a long period of time, and that's great.
33:23I'm happy for you with that.
33:24>> Thank you.
33:27>> Have you talked to your dad at all? Is your dad in the same boat as your mom or >> Well, my dad was just the type that never reached out. He never called or text. My mom My mom always did it. So, she was always the one that I spoke to.
33:41So, when she um wrote that text message to me in January 2023 and I stopped reaching out, I stopped trying. Um No, I didn't really hear from my dad that much after that. And he came out recently for you know, for something um with my family and you know, he saw a plaque on the wall that said like, you know, like top entrepreneur or or what was it? Like top um like one of the 10 top people to look out for in 2024. One of the What Sorry.
34:18One of the one of the top influential influential people to look out for in 2024. It was like a headline like that with my picture, and he pointed at it and said, you know, "I'm really proud of you."
34:28You know. So, that meant a lot to me.
34:30That's all I ever wanted, you know, words of affirmation are my love language and so all I ever wanted was to feel like my parents were proud of me.
34:38You know, I never really felt that through my life so that that felt good.
34:43>> Yeah.
34:43>> And you still don't have a relationship with your siblings. You said your mom would like kind of put you guys against each other as kids.
34:51>> Yeah, up until yeah, present day.
34:54>> How What's the age gap between each of you? Older brother, younger sister?
34:57>> brother's a year younger. My sister is a 3 years younger.
35:00>> Okay.
35:03I said, "Wow, you guys are pretty close in age, too." And you're not tight.
35:08That makes sense.
35:10Mhm.
35:10>> Well, I come to find out a lot of siblings aren't tight.
35:15>> It sounds like though there's a lot of siblings cuz I was an only child so I can't speak to this from experience.
35:21But I know I see what you're saying there but I'll see a lot of relationships where siblings aren't tight but there's it's more like um >> Mutual respect or >> No, what's the word? Like there's underlying tension but there's very clear shared lived experiences that they >> Yeah.
35:40>> can go to and it sounds like you didn't really have that part.
35:45>> Yeah, I didn't I never understood that because I had girlfriends that did not have a close relationship with their sisters but they were sisters. They would still get together with the family and they're still sisters even though they weren't close.
35:56And I know guys that hate each other, you know, they're brother they like hate each other but like whenever they're together on holidays and stuff they're still brothers. You know what I mean?
36:03It's just like I never really had that close family dynamic and we were very small family. So I didn't I just didn't have that. That's why I'm why I took marriage seriously, why I wanted to have a big family. I you know, I always wanted to have kids and have that my own family to have, you know, a really close you know, knit relationship but uh you know, I do have that now.
36:25>> And you've done that. Yeah, it's awesome. Are you Are you religious at all? Or have you ever been religious?
36:30>> Well, I mean, I wasn't raised under any religion. My mom was Roman Roman Catholic, but we weren't raised. My father just let us believe, you know, figure it out on our own. I mean, I've I feel like I'm very very spiritual, you know, I do a lot of um you know, meditation and I have like this retreats and things I go on. I feel very um spiritual, but I'm not like a religious person. No. No.
36:54>> But do you believe in like a higher power?
36:56>> Oh, for sure. Yes, a definite uh higher power. I believe in God. Yeah.
37:01>> I'm not a religious person, either, but I certainly believe in God and certainly believe in a higher power and I try to live my life assuming I'm humble and not knowing what comes next and I'm going to have to answer for things I do here, so do as much good as possible, right?
37:18And I think everyone has to kind of have their own relationship with that, so however people get to that is great with me, but I got to tell you reading through these files and seeing the things that they're talking about and the things they did and hearing about personal experiences that you've shared today and other victims have have shared and again, all the stuff we don't even know about yet, it is impossible to not look at this and say there is Satanism going on, whatever that is. I don't even I'm not the guy that can define that.
37:55There's way better people in the comment sections that can actually like really define that.
37:59But do you have a similar experience when when you read about this and see these things like the like [ __ ] this is like ritualistic in a way?
38:09>> Well, Satanism is real.
38:13It really is a I mean, the the Epstein world is a cult.
38:18Um it's a cult.
38:21It's If you look up anything about cults, this is has exact same the leaders, you know, and the followers and the the major grooming that's going on and and if you look at the rituals and stuff that they do, they're pretty disgusting rituals that they do. Um Uh it is a form of devil worshiping and yeah, I mean, I think with one extreme you have to have the other and the beautiful light and the God and the peace and you know, the the beautiful universe and things that we know are real as well, you know.
38:51Um I don't really get into all the other religious stuff and people can believe whatever they want to, but I do believe there's there's a very dark evil with with also the beautiful light.
39:02Um and I feel like we're all trying to get to that beautiful light right now and try to take some of that evil away.
39:11Now that we're aware of what's going on, we're hoping somehow to move away from it or or shift something that we can't those people aren't able to do those horror horrendous things anymore. There's there's got to be something. We can't just now know what's going on and not do something about it.
39:30What that is and how we're going to get there, I have no clue.
39:33You know, that's what we all have to figure out right now, but we have to keep trying because now that we've seen how dark that goes, how could you sit around and just let that happen?
39:43>> I agree 100% Lisa. It's you know, and I hope something does.
39:49But you you've described that look in Jeffrey Epstein's eyes a few times that I believe the word you used was like demonic, like the demon look.
39:57>> Mhm.
39:58Yeah, that shift, yeah.
40:00>> Do you think there's something more to that, meaning like if demons are real, then he was possessed by one or was one?
40:12>> Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of conspiracy theories about how far that goes with like the lizards and the vampires and all this crazy stuff.
40:22Anything is possible.
40:24>> Mhm.
40:24>> I don't I don't like to say no, that can't be possible. I don't know.
40:29I do know there's some demonic stuff going on there within him with with Glenn.
40:36With with many of them. I mean, it was clear as day if you read it on files, so >> Right.
40:41>> I'm not like, you know, making making anything up. It's it's clear as day, so I don't know. For me, it's very scary and there's a reason why a lot of people have a lot of fear around it, you >> Yes.
40:52And Les Wexner is even he even talked about it openly in the past. Now, I guess you could say it's a figure of speech possi- meaning possibly, but I don't think it is. I think it I think it was an honest Freudian slip, if you will, but he talked about in Deep, can we pull this up? It was in the '80s or '90s? There was a big article spread on him maybe in GQ. I could be misremembering it, but we'll we'll I'm sure Deep will find it.
41:17>> It was in GQ.
41:18>> No, no, no, no, no.
41:19>> Okay.
41:20But he he talked about he's possessed by I believe it's called a dibbuk, which is a Yiddish word for demon, >> Oh, boy.
41:29>> and literally says it and and it's like it drives him and it and it makes him do the things he does.
41:36Now, in a court of law, you could say, "Oh, he's just saying he's trying to drive towards wealth or whatever." But I >> that?
41:42>> Right. When I see the evil >> billionaire.
41:45>> Right. When I see an evil of a guy like this, yeah, Deep got it right here. And he's actually saying something like this. It's like d i b b y k or something like that.
41:54>> Yeah, they protect him for whatever reason in the files and everything, they protect him. That was one of the things at the Pam Bondi hearing when they I think it was Massie who brought it up, right? And he had to demand they release that name and it was his.
42:07>> Yes.
42:08That there were six names that Ro Khanna said after he and Massie went and visited the DOJ to review it and then walked out and and said them. And I still have to do I recognized a bunch of the names. I still have to do more homework on the other ones. The one that I gave a [ __ ] about immediately was that he was one. And it's like >> Yeah, five mentions of it.
42:30>> Yeah, five mentions of it. There it is.
42:31Yeah, yeah.
42:32All right. So, in the Can you just zoom in a little bit, Dief?
42:36Thank you, brother.
42:37So, in the morning Leslie Wexner became a billionaire. He woke up worried, but this was not unusual. He always wakes up worried because of his dibbuk, which pokes and prods and gives him the itchiness of soul that he calls shfikkus. Some Sometimes he runs away from it on the roads of Columbus or drives away from it in his Porsche or flies away from it.
43:03Can we get the next >> instance?
43:05>> Yeah, the next instance.
43:07>> That was already creepy.
43:08>> He met his dibbuk again when he climbed Vail Mountain and changed his life. All right, let's go to the next one. I want to see where they defined it. All right, here it is. Perhaps it's time to reintroduce Leslie Wexner's dibbuk, the demon that always wakes up in the morning with Wexner and tweaks and pulls at him. When he was a boy, his father called it tummel, a churning, so he feels quote molten and unformed, pricked by the spiritual pins and needles. He met this demon again when he was 40 and already worth half a billion when he climbed the mountain.
43:42>> Wow.
43:43>> I mean >> What the heck?
43:45>> Yeah, I feel like if I I I feel like a lawyer could work with that.
43:49>> they even Why do they even print that?
43:51>> What did the quotes dibbuk say?
43:53>> Okay, so he says that the dibbuk saying more. What next? He went too fast and got into trouble in 1979. He turned operations over to some other [ __ ] dude and did the buying himself. He was always competitive. So, the divot drives him >> Yeah.
44:09>> for more. More, more, more. Money, money, money.
44:11>> Wow.
44:12>> That's the other thing with these people, Lisa. It's clear they like when people talk about Satanism and this stuff, it's it manifests not just quite literally through like maybe doing some weird ritual and bowing before a ball or, you know, the devil, but it manifests in worshipping things, in worshipping materialism, in worshipping things that you put above the value of humans.
44:38>> Yeah.
44:39>> Now, I do have to say this to be fair just like journalistically. Nancy Mace, >> Mhm.
44:45>> who I appreciate has been really pushing some things recently to try to get this out. She did say when they released the files, obviously, they're awful, but she said that she was told to be careful with information you see related to, you know, government reports and stuff like that.
45:05Like from 2020 and on. And the reason she said this is valid.
45:11Basically, once this case went mainstream, >> Mhm.
45:14>> you know how it goes.
45:16>> Yeah. People are >> Just like just like Harvey Weinstein probably abused [ __ ] 2,000 women, >> Yeah.
45:21>> but like 40,000 women accused him of it because they could get in on it. Your schizophrenic neighbor could say that that happened.
45:28>> Yeah.
45:28>> So, I will say I have read like some cuz the FBI obviously they [ __ ] up their job a ton here.
45:34>> Yeah.
45:35>> is to just review any lead that comes in. So, you will see dead serious straight emails of just FBI person one to FBI person two saying like, all right, uh witness claims that blank, blank, blank.
45:46And there's no like opinion on it.
45:48They're just reporting to their colleague what they said.
45:50>> there's quite a few emails, I mean hundreds of them that are way before 2020.
45:55>> That's correct. That's correct. I'm just saying for this one right here where it's stated this is a December 2021. So, I have to say that.
46:03>> Yeah, I I'm aware of that. I I I mean, I I you know, I'm the person well, a lot of the survivors are that came forward.
46:10Um you know, other victims have come forward and they speak to us about the you know, uh their assaults and things like that and many many girls or women um I don't know if there's this thing of you know, Epstein survivors being like the rock stars these days and you know, people looking up to them, but quite a few have come forward saying they're Epstein survivors and then you get into the stories and then you realize I've never even met them.
46:34>> Right.
46:35>> You know, so I'm aware of that. Uh >> Remember the 9/11 lady?
46:40>> Mhm.
46:40>> Who who like ran the victims fund and claimed she was there and she literally lived in Spain at the time and was caught years later.
46:47>> Yeah, it's ridiculous.
46:48>> It's unfortunate because it hurts the real victims.
46:51>> I I agree.
46:52>> You know.
46:52>> Yeah.
46:53>> But that's you know, as you said, there's many emails prior to 2020 between these people where they were talking in code about stuff and you can't even like rule out the stuff that it's it's just like it's nuts to me.
47:08>> Yeah.
47:08>> It's nuts.
47:09>> Now when when when when he died, obviously you said this all kind of came forward. What was your first thought when he died? You're like did you think there's no way this guy unalived himself or do you think it's possible that he did?
47:22>> Um I mean, the day that I found out was pretty traumatic. I just focused on the fact that he was dead.
47:30>> Mhm.
47:31>> Um it wasn't till a few months later I started speaking to other survivors and started like thinking about the story and started doing some documentaries and things like that. So, and it unfolded over time.
47:42Um I'm I'm trying to think of your question. Um I I when I really thought about it, there was no doubt in my mind that he was probably murdered and not taking his own life. I never thought he took his own life.
48:07Um I just don't think just knowing the type of person that he was that that was something that he would do.
48:13I feel like he had so much on so many people that he wouldn't have a reason to and he would have gotten off on it in some way somehow.
48:19>> Right.
48:20>> Technicality or something. They they would have made something up for him to get a because I think that he was necessary and needed by for whatever reason he was there.
48:29So, um I don't think they would have uh I don't know. So many people say nowadays that he's alive.
48:38Like I so many people say that. I mean I don't even think it's true cuz it's only because I hope it's not true. Um The only reason why I spoke out was because of cuz he had died.
48:48Um I think a lot of survivors are in fear if he really is alive. Not that he can really do anything now, but you never know.
48:55Um I think there's just a lot of fear that comes with this man and just you know, being in the public eye and speaking out about it just because there's just so many layers of it. Uh So, I don't know, but I definitely don't think that he committed suicide.
49:13>> Yeah, I I've always I agree.
49:16>> Mhm.
49:17>> And I've always thought he is in fact dead and as of right now I still think that.
49:22>> Yeah.
49:23>> But once again, it's like after all the crazy [ __ ] we're seeing, I have to say it's on the table that maybe he's not I I had a guy Kendis Gib- Gibson in here who became friends with a couple chefs that worked on the cooking team afterwards.
49:37>> Oh, yeah, yeah.
49:38>> And they think he's alive.
49:39>> Why?
49:39>> They said they said there's no similar to the logic you said there's like they said A, there's no way he would have he would have offed himself because he >> Yeah.
49:49>> too narcissistic.
49:50>> know >> And he >> thought he could get out of it.
49:52>> But why do we think he's alive?
49:53>> Because they believed I Kenneth was like unclear on some of it.
49:58But essentially like they believed he had too much power and too much influence over too many very important people to not have some sort of out switch.
50:11>> Yeah.
50:12Yeah, that's what I would have thought that he always thought that he was going to get away with it. So and be protected. That's the reason why he was able to do all that he was doing. Um But then again, if he was dead, they already have everything. I mean, someone has those videos from all of his homes that saw everyone who went in and and went out and who went into what door and out of what door.
50:36So almost like what do they need him for when they have everything that he could possibly tell them? I would think. So is there >> Right.
50:43>> So I don't know. That's a hard one.
50:49>> What if you look at all these people who are like a part of the cover-up now and trying to not release this or still as of the time you and I are talking, there's still 2 and 1/2 million documents that they say they're never going to release. Forget redacted.
51:01They're just never going to release them.
51:03You know >> If they're never going to release 3 more million documents, what the heck is on them?
51:09>> That's That's what I'm saying.
51:11>> How can it be any darker or more disturbing than what we've already seen?
51:15That cuz that's what it means when they say, "We're not going to release it."
51:19There's a reason.
51:24There's not There's like nothing on it.
51:26We're not going to release them cuz there's nothing on it. Obviously, there is the worst stuff on it.
51:33>> It's so hard to think about because like look at the JFK thing, right?
51:40Just with this example, you'll see where I'm going with this.
51:43If you could point to and I think you can like the government killed the guy. Like, there were high-level people at the Pentagon and CIA who did it.
51:54I don't know. Let's say there's 100,000 people working at those two places at the time.
51:58>> Mhm.
51:59>> Realistically, 99,900 and some of them had no idea that was going to happen that day.
52:05>> Mhm.
52:06>> But they work at the Pentagon or CIA or these places that have a name on the door where very high-level people made the decision under the jurisdiction of those organizations to do it.
52:17>> Oh.
52:18>> If the American people ever got full proof of that >> Mhm.
52:21>> and found out, those places are shuttered the next day.
52:25And the reality is for all the horrible [ __ ] that we know organizations like that do, I mean, it's been well documented on this podcast the horrible [ __ ] CIA does, there's there are objectively also people there who are actually doing their job and, you know, stopping a terrorist attack.
52:41>> course, exactly. That's the same thing, I think.
52:43>> So, what I'm saying is the weird thing is with something, now bring it back to the Epstein case, if it were powerful enough people that like the whole house of cards came down, if all the information came out at once, and then like the the [ __ ] country ceased to exist.
53:02If I'm sitting on the other side and I know that that's what's going to happen if the information comes out, I can't even imagine having that decision because you are covering up the most vile crimes known to man.
53:16>> Yeah.
53:19Yeah, I agree. I don't know. With when when it comes to cases like this, I just try to look at the facts.
53:23>> Yeah.
53:24>> So, let's let's say let's say he did commit suicide, why then everything would have just been fine. The way everything that the the guard would have been awake, that there wouldn't be missing tape, that everything would just would just would just be in place, right? But then why are there so many things out of place that didn't function right or why are there so many discrepancies around just a suicide?
53:49If he really did take his life.
53:50>> That's right.
53:51>> Yeah.
53:52>> It's very strange.
53:53>> that's all you have to really look at.
53:55If it was just so cut and dry, everything would be in place like it was a normal day.
54:00But why on that day?
54:02>> Perfectly.
54:04>> Everything just didn't go right. Why?
54:08>> You see the document in the files where they had the date the day before?
54:12>> Mhm, yeah.
54:13Why is there so many weird things makes so many stupid mistakes?
54:17You know.
54:19>> The other thing that's so strange about this case is it reveals how small the elite circles really are. Everyone knows everyone. You can trace a guy in 1974 to someone in power now who's who was his that guy's friend's golf buddy.
54:34>> Oh, yeah.
54:35Well, because when you make a certain amount of money, when you're in that bracket, you only hang around those people.
54:39>> Yes.
54:40>> Yeah, and there's this much smaller amount of people.
54:42>> Yeah.
54:42>> Yeah.
54:43>> Did you when you would be in in the rooms like where you go in there and it's all these old weird dudes?
54:50Was there a feeling of like there's them and they look at us as like oh, yeah.
54:57They're here, but they're not they're not with us. They're just here at our pleasure.
55:01>> Yeah, I mean of course they don't really want to get to know you.
55:04>> Right.
55:04>> Yeah, so it was just kind of weird that you're even there.
55:07>> Right.
55:07>> Yeah.
55:08>> Now, what do you think of the whole Ghislaine thing going on because now she just pled the fifth or whatever which I guess is her constitutional right to do, but she's been sent to a minimum security prison.
55:18>> If that was even her.
55:20>> If that was even her, yeah.
55:21>> anything like her.
55:22>> The nose was different, I noticed.
55:24>> whole face that was so weird.
55:27Like that really freaked me out. That was the first time I saw like where is Ghislaine? Where did she go?
55:34That is not her. They put like a fake Ghislaine in there to answer the questions, you know?
55:40This whole thing gets like weirder and weirder.
55:42>> It gets weirder and weirder.
55:44>> they take her?
55:50I mean, I really do hope that's her, but if they took her out of there, like this is just the weirdest.
55:55We live We live like in the Twilight Zone.
55:59Right? It's like you can't make this [ __ ] up.
56:02>> All All the things that, like I said, used to be like, "Come on."
56:06Now it's like that's on the table.
56:09And I'm try Like in my seat >> were were told years and years ago.
56:14>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
56:14>> You know, people just died once they talked about it, you know?
56:18>> Now it's like you can't kill everybody now. Now it's all out there, you know?
56:22>> Yeah.
56:23It's hard like to do it journalistically, too, cuz you're like, you want to stick to all the facts, and then you see a lot of code words and stuff, and you're like, "We don't have full facts, but man, if that were a mob case, that looks You look guilty."
56:37>> Yeah.
56:38>> Right?
56:38>> Mhm. Yeah.
56:40>> And how about the fact that all these people >> Yeah.
56:44>> feel so comfortable in their position in society that they openly send all this stuff on email, open-source email to each other.
56:56>> Well, they never thought anyone was going to look at those emails.
56:59They never thought anyone was ever going to see those emails. They never thought they were ever going to release it.
57:05Those files.
57:06>> All right, let me go one step farther with you, though. I don't know if this changes your opinion, but we're talking about billionaires and stuff. What happens with billionaires a lot?
57:15>> Mhm.
57:15>> They get sued.
57:16>> Yeah.
57:17>> What happens in civil courts when you get sued? You have discovery, which means your emails are discoverable.
57:23>> I don't think they ever thought Epstein's were going to be.
57:26There's no freaking way they're writing that type of stuff.
57:28>> Yeah.
57:29>> Thinking this ever going to be out there. I mean, Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff. Bill Gates never thought any of that stuff was ever going to be out there. There's no way. I'm sure they fought like tooth and nail to make sure those didn't come out, but >> You know, some of it's out there.
57:44>> Well, it's just the only thing that's happening to these men is they're being embarrassed in society. That's all.
57:51People get to laugh about it for a little while and they get to go on with their lives.
57:57>> I hope not.
57:59I hope I hope some of them really do see justice with this.
58:04>> Well, that's up to our justice department, isn't it?
58:06>> Yes, it is.
58:07>> Whether they want to do something about it or not.
58:09>> It is.
58:09>> I mean, they have they have total capability of doing so. They have everything in front of them to make the right decision and and to you know, go after them civilly or criminally.
58:21>> Absolutely.
58:21>> Yeah.
58:22And let's see what happens. Let's see what unfolds.
58:26>> Well, I really appreciate you not only going through everything, but also being brave enough to speak out about this for so many years now and represent not just as you said the voices for this case who can't speak out or might even be dead and really can't speak out, but also the voices for people around the world in other cases who feel pressured to not be able to say anything. It's it's a really important example you're setting every day and and I I hope you can see the can't change what happened to you, but you know, the positive force you're now using on the other side of it to make some change. I think it's really really
59:04amazing.
59:05>> Oh, that's awesome. Thank you for saying that. I do see the difference now and being there and doing this and I I never thought if you'd told me a year ago that I was going to be at Capitol Hill and at the State of the Union, like all these things I would never have I believed you, but it's it's so important and I you know, I can't stop now and I look forward to season two of my podcast where I can have more survivors on and and you know and have them tell those stories and have them have their moments as well.
59:32>> Yeah, we got to get we got to get Sarah on there.
59:34>> That's what we all need. We need we need those moments, you know, that make us feel like we have some justice.
59:39>> Absolutely.
59:41All right, well Lisa, thank you so much and I I wish you and all the victims all the best and hopefully you actually see some justice for all the things that happened here.
59:51>> Yeah, thank you, too.
59:52>> All right.
59:53>> Appreciate that.
59:54>> Everybody else you know what it is, give it a thought, get back to me.
59:57Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.
Read the essay version →