0:01Yeah. And I mean what the status of it is. U >> So the only thing we heard about the freedom shirt was Brian Harpole alleges that he cut it off.
0:10>> He did.
0:11>> Brian Harpole said on I think it was Shawn Ryan that he wheels him into the emergency room, finds a a stretcher right to the left. He puts him on the stretcher. They put him in a room. He jumps on top. He cuts the shirt off because he wants to prepare the uh for a defibrillator. Now, I don't believe any of that. I think that's totally >> security guy.
0:34>> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's his cla I mean that Brian, don't sue me. I know you're suing people. Don't don't sue me.
0:39[laughter] Um but I I think I'm accurately representing what he said.
0:43>> Okay.
0:43>> On Shawn Ryan.
0:44>> Wow.
0:46>> And at that point, that's the last we've heard of the Freedom Shoot. Is that does that strike you as odd to have a security guy take control of a body when it's in a emergency room and do anything with the clothing?
0:59>> Secret Service were some of the biggest [ __ ] on the face of the planet when it came to Kennedy now, weren't they?
1:03>> Yeah. And they were quite odd. Yeah.
1:07>> You know, they're putting, you know, Dr.
1:09Rose against the wall, threatening to arrest him.
1:14We're taking the body with us.
1:16>> Oh, right. Yeah. you know, so uh I don't know, wouldn't happen in my world, but you know, >> a lot of a lot of medical professionals have weighed in and said they don't they don't believe that story.
1:29>> Yeah. I've never seen that [laughter] happen. [snorts] >> Um >> it's possible.
1:35>> I guess it's possible.
1:36>> Imagine you're a doctor that walks in there and you see a civilian in in his just looking at him for the first time cutting on the body you're about to work on. Like that's wild to me. But I I'm glad you brought it back to the shirt because I wanted to ask you about this earlier. You were talking about the things all the evidence you'd be looking for on the shirt and you mentioned, you know, where the mic was all that. What like medically speaking, I I should say scientifically speaking, what kinds of tests are you performing on the shirt?
2:03What are you are you using products on it? Like for all of us out there that have no idea how this works. So, there there are specific specific uh explosive residue tests that can be done.
2:15Uh, [sighs] and I got to tell you guys, if if it were me, um, State Crime Lab, I'm sure, is fantastic in Utah. That shirt for me, I would want that in the hands of ATF because that is where they dance, baby. And I would want them to check that thing from stem to stern. You know, we've [clears throat] >> Is this just a microscopic examination or are they adding chemical for?
2:43>> There's there can Yeah, there is actually there's two two ways of testing it. First off, we do what's called a gross examination, which the gross examination is literally as it sounds.
2:54You you are physically looking at the thing. you're using hand lenses and you're also using scopes that have a certain mag magnification and you can look over the surface of it and this is kind of the multi-step process that it that it goes through uh and it's at that point once they have cleared it and they and I wanted to point this out as well um just so you guys know um and we can get this get to this with DNA as well later because I think a lot of people wonder about how the samples are taken.
3:28that shirt would be broken down into little grids. Okay? So, if you've got it laid out, for instance, we do this with uh what are called tape lifts. Tape lifts, like if you take tape and you lift off of off of the surface of a shirt, say it's the right arm. Well, this is going to be the right anterior arm of the shirt. Okay? That tape lift is set aside. And this is designated like A1.
4:00A2 would be the left anterior aspect and then B1 B2 on the back. And so you're breaking so it's controlled. You you you know, you're just not like randomly searching it. And just as you search it, you would break an item up like that into grids so that you can go back and identify it. Say, I examined grid such and such and in here I found nothing grossly. Then you go back with u whatever kind of chemical testing they're going to be doing. Um and they're going to look for a wide variety of things. And anything they collect also microscopically is not necessarily it's not purely a chemical test as much as it is. you have
4:45um you're going to uh use spectrometry where certain chemicals bend light in a particular way. And so um they're going to look at it from that perspective microscopically. They would run this thing through through the mill uh very very thoroughly.
5:04That's why >> so is this the medical examiner or is this >> that's going to be the state of me >> but the does the medical examiner take custody of the >> Yeah, temporarily you do. And what h and a lot of people don't understand this I'm glad I got a chance to kind of explain it. So if a body comes into the morg and it's fully clothed um the best practice is to in fact have a crime scene investigator physically there from whoever the law enforcement agency is that is working the case.
5:32Okay. Um and those items generally are turned over to that subject. Okay. Um that's in charge of it. Now there are certain cases where like a shirt like that is going to be super saturated.
5:49Obviously you can see it you know that's it's going to be really really wet and gunky. Okay. Um we have what are referred to as evidence dryers. Now they're not like a tumble dryer. It's like uh a big box that you literally place something on a hanger and you hang it inside the thing and there's no humidity in it and it dries this thing out in place so that it becomes so that any evidence that's on there is manageable and you're not going to lose it.
6:18>> And that's not the medical examiner either.
6:20>> It all depends on the department. Like if you go to LA, they've got an in-house forensics department there. Okay? So it might have to go somewhere else and it's going to pass through a lot of hands. So not even state to state, it could be different cities, city, town to town.
6:32>> Absolutely. And it all depends on, you know, what kind of resources.
6:36>> Again, you're talking about bureaucrats, right? Right. You know, so it all depends on you don't know what their funding is. You don't know, you know, there's a lot of unknowns relative to that.
6:45>> Okay.
6:46>> So they would put that in the grid section so they have that back to refer to. Now, when you're looking at >> just uh take it on the whole rather than focusing on each part of the grid. when you're looking at it, what types of things would you be looking at right away to determine gunshot or something else?
7:06>> Well, for me, in a gross examination, if if we go back to the idea that that there was an explosive event, okay, explosive events look completely different than firearms events. So, you'll actually see like bits of charring, you know, around an area. I've seen cases where things have exploded on people and clothing is like singed, burned. There's a certain element of heat, like really intense heat that arises from that in in the immediate area. So, you're not necessarily saying that that happened, but it has to be taken into consideration. If it's a question that has been asked, you want to try to be able to facilitate
7:45answering that question either in the negative or the positive. We don't see any evidence of that or hey, you know, this might be evidence of it. So in the gross examination, that's kind of what you would be looking for. Also with clothing that where you have a an explosive event. Um uh you'll get you'll get this kind of fragmentation thing that takes place. So you'll see like little bitty defects in there. you know, uh if if it's if you've got some item that is blowing apart, you'll see little defects that are not they're they're not necessarily uniform, but you'll see the clothing kind of frayed and torn and that sort of thing.
8:24>> Okay. Now, when you once he was actually shot and you see the security team go around it, let's bring the video back in now because we do have video. I had said earlier, let's pretend we didn't have video. How do you look at it?
8:37>> You bet.
8:39What are the first things that a good well-trained first responding security team should be looking to do handling a body like that on the spot that has been hit with something that traumatic in >> stem the bleeding immediately. I mean, pressure has to be applied, but you can't This is a This is a difficult area, man. I mean, it's difficult.
8:59>> You don't want to choke them out.
9:00>> No, you don't. like you know because you know one of the things I mean you know it's like >> again when dinosaurs were on the earth when I went >> through the army you know when I went through army basic training all those years >> 1924 >> it was man we had those Springfield rifles man muzzle loaders um >> you you you know they teach you to apply direct pressure they do that in any kind of first aid course >> the neck in particular is very difficult um you know how much how much pressure do you apply in that specific area but look if you if You can't stem the bleeding. All is lost, man. I mean, it
9:34[laughter] you're going to have to stem it. And with an injury or an insult like that, >> what what would you use to stem the bleeding? Your hand.
9:43>> Direct pressure. Yeah. And if you have I would assume that if you had somebody that had some baseline medical training, they may try to take a 4x4, which is, you know, the 4x4 uh, you know, kind of bandage thing that you see, >> and try to plug the hole perhaps it mean >> desperate times, desperate measures.
10:06But, you know, even if you had even if you had a team of surgeons that were standing by with that shot or with that defect, that trauma, >> they would have a difficult time under those circumstances, >> even right on the spot.
10:22>> Yeah, I think they would. Yeah.
10:24>> So, we have video of them responding.
10:27>> Um, it it's difficult to tell what they're doing back there. What would it look like if if you couldn't see him and them? What would they be doing to stem the bleeding that you would be able to tell from above the table? Would you be see them reaching, repositioning him?
10:42What are they doing?
10:43>> Probably because they're they're seeing what you're seeing is because his heart's maybe still beating at this point. Don't know. All right. Might have agonal agonal respirations, which is just kind of, [gasps] >> you know, that kind of shallow thing that's going on. Life is ebbing away.
11:01When you see that what appears to be blood issuing forth from the defect, that's not going to last very long if the heart is still bump pumping because these are major major vessels in here and they have a tremendous amount of pressure particularly the corateed. uh if it clipped the corateed with the heart, you know, pumping away like this, it's, you know, and we see this with like um blood stain analysis, you know, like um we call it arterial spray for instance, like if you have somebody that has their throat cut and it clips clips an artery, you'll see it. It's >> Did you see spray in that video?
11:42>> No, I just so saw kind of a flow at that point, but it's it's really hard to make out. Looks like someone just poked a hole in the bottom of a gallon jug.
11:50>> Yeah.
11:50>> It almost It almost looks >> It almost looks like Venus blood.
11:56>> So, what does that tell you? What >> I'm sorry.
11:58>> Venus like the jugular vein, you know?
12:00>> Not the planet, right?
12:02>> Yeah. I >> mean, that's where my head was going.
12:03[laughter] New Jersey.
12:04>> Yeah. So, >> So, but what does that tell you that it just it looked like it more just dumped out?
12:09>> Yeah. And you might have multiple vessel and you have to in this area because it's so it's so complex in here whether you're going to have multiple multiple structures that are clipped in here because it's so tight. It's like if you ever go into a building and I'm going to get in trouble for this, but you see like cable that's being run through the wall, you know, and you get into if you if you kind of compare that to vessel structures like that.
12:36>> Um, you go into one, you're going to clip other things and it's so very delicate. And if we have a fragmenting round, even more so on particularly when you get because not only do you have these vessels here, you actually have a blood supply that's very delicate as well.
12:56There is a vertebral artery back here too that is deadly. I very very deadly.
13:03Like when people have some kind of neck injury, it's not just the spinal cord that'll be damaged. If they if this is if you fracture a vertebral body back here, that bone becomes um it's a I've cut myself on bone before uh in the autopsy room. It pass right through your gloves.
13:24Done it a number of times. And um it's sharp. I mean, you know, our ancestors made weapons out of them >> and so it'll it'll actually that vessel could be clipped as well, >> but but the fact that it just poured instead of spurted.
13:39>> Yeah.
13:40>> What do you what conclusion you have?
13:41>> Well, just again viewing viewing this image and it's limited. It's very very limited. It's not like we've got a tight high depth shot. Um it looks like Venus flow to me. It just does because it just comes out in it's not like doing this.
13:57So talk to me about the anatomy um of where those two are located. Is one in front of the other >> as as you as you face the say you're standing >> external the well you have the external corateed that's right here >> and that's the arterial one. Yeah that's the arterial bone.
14:13>> So are they laying like this?
14:14>> It's kind of kind of opposing like this and so >> but is one in front of the other as the as the >> Yeah. And so which one's in front? it it's the corateed is right here and so it's going to pass through >> pass through and clip and it can clip both of them >> uh it'll create a defect in both of those not to mention all the other little arterial and venus supplies that are branching off of it. So tracking down of course the corateed splits down and goes into like the subclave right here uh which runs right beneath the collar bone and it branches off. Um very highly complex um and again that's
14:57why I was saying there's so much damage that can be done in this particular area.
15:03um so much damage that can be done in this particular area that even if you had a team of surgeons standing there, it would be very very different.
15:13>> But when you say you see what you perceive as primarily Venus blood, >> Yeah.
15:17>> Um is it is it possible the Venus blood is of of a higher volume relative to the the total or is it that you think it may not have arterial blood at all? Why does it look that way to you?
15:30>> I don't know. I couldn't say. I couldn't say.
15:33>> So, just going off what we can see here.
15:37Obviously, we have the main story they've told us, like we said at the beginning, 138 yards away, 30 seconds, Tyler Robinson shoots it. When you see a wound like this, though, could you see something like that occurring from something that's not a bullet?
15:53I don't know. I'd have to I would have to have an idea of what that would be. I mean, is it something that's propelled through the air and driven that [snorts] creates that? And again, I say shape, I can't fully appreciate the shape because it's at such a grand distance. I know that it's not a massive opened area like this. It's not like something has exploded in the sense of like I keep going back to Kennedy, but with >> Well, that's your case, so go back there.
16:24>> Um, I wish it had been my case. Yeah, it would have been handled. we you'd be dead, but [laughter] you >> I probably would be, you know, um you don't have this explosive event like that. This is this is a concentrated area. So, I if you're asking me to speculate on what else could cause this, I I really couldn't. It has to be something that's dense enough that would maintain its physical characteristics in order to create a defect that you're going to have blood pouring from it.
16:52>> Is it Initially when people watched it, they all assumed it was an exit wound? I mean, the first day everyone's like, "That looks like an exit one." Because it was so big.
17:00>> Um, when you first see it, before the blood starts pouring out, you see a I mean, it's hard to tell on a two-dimensional >> uh video, but it looks like it's the size of a nickel or or larger, >> uh, which is a lot larger than a typical entry wound. Is it possible that that is blood coming out and nothing had gone in, meaning there's some action on his body that caused it to erupt through the skin? I can't in to my way of think nothing comes to mind right now that would explain >> that's where I am.
17:29>> Yeah. [laughter] I mean >> I just figured I'd ask you the expert.
17:31>> No, no, no. I mean and nothing you know nothing comes to mind that you know where I'm thinking about that it could be you could have something that would produce that kind of insult. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people that have speculation about that.
17:43>> So Martinson's original thought where he was talking about it was it was a shot from somewhere else. In that situation, to go back what you were saying, just to set the standard here, if it is another type of weapon like another type of gun that fired around, you'd still would it matter what kind of bullet or what kind of gun to be able to see that same kind of spinning cycle you were describing with the bullet to be able to examine the wound and figure out the entry point?
18:07>> No, no, no, no, no. That the uh abrasion collar that I was referred to earlier, >> it's going to look you you'll still see it.
18:17>> Okay. Would you see that >> you two with a 22 round?
18:20>> I guess I guess it would depend what another kind of weapon would be. But are there other things that aren't guns where you would see a similar behavior cylindrically? I That's not a word, but you know what I mean.
18:30>> No, I know what you're saying. Yeah.
18:32That would cavitate through that area and create that.
18:36>> Not that I could think of that's not >> You're talking about something I just so that I'm clear, you're talking about something that is being projected, right? Sure. Okay. So, I know that's kind of obvious, but I I just have to ask that question. So, you're talking about something is being projected. Um, not not in my experience that I've seen.
18:57Uh, um, you know, if you're thinking some kind of air driven thing or something else that's been discharged through the air that could stay on that trajectory and strike and be lethal, nothing comes to mind for me. No.
19:14>> Okay. Real quick, I have to go to the bathroom, but this is a good point. Def when we're while we're away, can we get video of the immediate aftermath, like the crowd right there? Video uh the video of the guy removing the camera cartridges as well, the SD cards, and then also video of them carrying his body to the truck. And we'll have that queued up, ready to roll, and we'll go through the next steps of it. All right.
19:42All right. We'll be right back.
19:45All right, we're back. So Baron, you were just saying something off air to go back around to some of the sound conversation, the dynamics of that that we were talking about earlier.
19:52>> Yeah. When he was talking about sound, he said one of the first things he would do as an investigator, show up and ask people what they heard. And we ran a whole montage of people uh witnesses. He wants you to slide that way a little bit.
20:03>> Yeah. Sorry.
20:04>> Oh, I'm sorry. Um, >> he ran a whole We ran a whole montage of witnesses that were on [snorts] camera and they all said they heard a firework or a firecracker or a pop. I talked to a student at UVU the other day and I asked him the same question. What did you hear? What did it sound like?
20:20>> And he said, "It honestly sound like a balloon popped." And I was like, "Well, where were you?" And he said, "I was 10t to Charlie's left." He said, "I was like two or three rows up, maybe 15 ft." Um, and I said, "You didn't hear like a loud boom, like a rifle boom?" He said, "No."
20:35He was over there.
20:36>> He was to Charlie's left. To >> our right. Yeah. Yeah. To our >> to our right. To our right. Looking at him. Um, and he said, "I just heard a a pop." I said, "Did you hear like a a boom boom, you know, like [clears throat] some you'll hear a if you're downrange, you'll hear the crack and then you'll hear the boom behind it." And he said, "No, there was no second sound. It was just a loud pop like a balloon." Um, and all the different people that said they thought someone was shooting off a firework or a firecracker.
21:03Is that what you would expect with a 300 6?
21:06>> Yeah. Oh, okay. With a 300 6. Well, again, it all depends on where you're positioned relative to it. Okay.
21:12>> And where the shooter, if it is someone shooting a 300 6, where they are positioned relative to the rest of the crowd. I I'm I'd be very curious if a um because you know there there have been cases out there where they have uh audio people that actually come in and do audio mapping you know of cases like this. Feds have done it before. You know what could you hear? And other thing that there's so many there's so many dynamics that can impact the way you hear things at a scene. In this case, if you got somebody that's in an elevated position, how is that sound uh going to disperse into the air, uh as opposed to
21:53being flat on a flat range if you're firing a rifle um where you can hear the concussion of it, you know, kind of traveling out at that moment in time.
22:03>> So, it's it and this is such an odd setup. Again, got to tell y'all if um if I was, and I'm not never want to be, but just, you know, and everybody can Monday morning quarterback, this is not the position I would want my guy in.
22:22Um because it is a bowl. I mean, it's a death trap. Oh, you down there.
22:27>> Looking up at the at the watchtower.
22:28>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's [clears throat] a it's a horrible horrible circumstance to be in. You're not alone in that because most of his people that have gone on the record said when he walked in they were like I don't like all these roofs up here.
22:39>> No. And why in the hell they you don't have people up there, you know, walking about and doing and of course these questions have come up in other cases, you know, relative to Butler and all these sorts of things. And uh >> well, speaking of direction of sound, he has a video. This this is a video. You can see the people still running away and dispersing. So this was seconds afterwards.
23:00>> Okay.
23:01>> These people >> This the one you sent him.
23:02>> Yeah. This the one I just sent him.
23:03These people are standing just to position you.
23:07>> Um >> this way a little bit. Sorry.
23:08>> Just to position you. These people are standing between the Losi center and the tent.
23:12>> Gotcha.
23:13>> They are on the on the on the ledge directly in front of it. So if if if the shot was 138 yards, these people are maybe 20 yards in front of the alleged shot.
23:23>> And so >> all right, let's play down there.
23:31The shot came from down there.
23:32>> Shaw came from down there.
23:36>> That's insane.
23:44>> I deleted it.
23:48>> Yeah. So, the the shot, the alleged shot would have come from behind the perspective of this camera. They're pointing down towards the tent and saying this shot came from down there.
23:58Mhm.
23:58>> Um, you know, I I again, there's no one single piece of evidence I look at and say that was not a 30 odd six from the roof.
24:05>> But I see something like that and those are eyewitnesses >> immediately. Immediately. I mean, these are basically excited utterances and they're saying the shot came from down there.
24:14>> Is there a way that >> I'm really unfamiliar with the science of sound and what it can bounce off of in a situation like this? Is there a way that because of the buildings around there and the nature of the fishbowl atmosphere that the sound could have traveled? So again, you're not you don't know it's coming either, so you're reacting to it. So you have to try to remember it afterwards, but they are instantly recording this, which is great because it's their instant memory. Is there a way that sound could have traveled in such a way that it reflects off some sort of walling or building that could make it appear like it went
24:46from somewhere else? It's certainly, you know, it's certainly something that's uh you have to entertain. Um, again, I keep going back to Kennedy and you think about there and the buildings of course there in Dy Plaza that are surrounding that area or a lot higher and that's going to impact the way that sound is dispersed in this environment, but you still have structures. It's not like you're out on the open prairie here.
25:13Okay? So yeah, all of that has to be factored in. Even even the people have to be factored in because I submit to you that if you have a fixed point of an origin of sound, if you've got nobody down there and you've got 3,000 people down there, even the presence of human bodies is going to impact the way the sound is going to travel dependent upon where the point of origin is. If it's down on the ground, okay, it's going to disperse differently than if it's, you know, superior to everybody else >> in my opinion. But yeah, what do I know?
25:46I'm not a sound engineer.
25:48>> When we brought that up in the break, you also mentioned though like the laser >> and their pager operation referring referring to MSAD and like how that would have worked from like I think you were referring to it. Was that from a sound perspective? You were talking about that? No, I was just No, I was I was talking about how savage it is like when just the the pagers, you know, um when you see and the one that stands out in my mind is the guy I I think he's he he looks like he's in a grocery store. I think he's adjacent to like a fruit, you know, like fruit bins and all that sort of stuff. When this thing detonates,
26:25it's very violent. Tremendous amount of smoke and all this sort of thing. Um, >> yeah, we can't show that, Die. But we can watch it in here. Okay, so they're in the store.
26:36>> I don't know. I want to watch it.
26:39>> Oh, they cut away.
26:40>> Oh, did they cut away before?
26:41>> Yeah. Well, no, because it gave me a warning before the video, so it should have.
26:46>> They may have clipped it out anyway.
26:48>> They took it out.
26:49>> We didn't show it.
26:50>> Yeah, for the best. Okay. But you were saying, Joseph, >> yeah, it's just, you know, that just referring to that itself. uh you know nothing relative to audio. I was just merely talking about what a violent violent event that was and you can see everybody in that space and it's a very tight space. Um you know reacting to that. Um and you'll have that kind of concussive event that goes forward in a contained area like that. You know you know in the whatever that is a bed or whatever whatever the hell that is when this thing detonates.
27:26Um, and it's it's very impressive, you know, to see it. Uh, just physically viewing it, you can kind of see that cloud and that burst like that. And that guy reacts very violently. That's the the victim right there. [sighs] >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you can see him totally.
27:44>> Even the hat, you know, the hat flies off, all these sorts of things.
27:47>> I just thought of this actually because Steve, we we pulled up a bunch of videos that we're going to be referring to in a few minutes here on the break. There's another one though, the side profile of Charlie that shows the back of his shirt. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? And I believe there's a chain back there as well.
28:04>> That lifts up as well.
28:06>> Can we get that from a from a timing perspective? And while you're doing that, let's talk about one other thing.
28:11Baron, you have discussed publicly a picture that you are in possession of that you had a chance to show Joseph as well, which I'll let you describe past this, but it at least shows Charlie's body sometime shortly after this. And on the shirt, there is I think what you described as dead space, meaning like there's blood and then a bunch of space where there's not blood about Right. De, can you do camera one for this? Right here. So, there's a bunch of space about right here where there's not blood.
28:40>> Mhm. And then blood up here, blood down here. Right.
28:44>> And you were. And I was too.
28:45>> What What appears to be blood.
28:47>> What appear [laughter] That's right.
28:49He's learning.
28:49>> He's learning. There you go. Gold sto appears to be blood. But that that struck me as weird and it struck you as weird.
28:56>> What about you?
28:57>> No. Well, going back to my example of the self harm people, you know, with firearms >> unalivvening.
29:03>> Thank you.
29:05um when and I'm just talking about from that perspective what we see relative to blood deposition and you know one of the areas that we kind of dance in in forensics is is blood deposition blood splatter you know that sort of thing >> so um when you'll have somebody that's in a position and I'm not referring to Charlie here I'm referring in general all right so you can have absent space and it's a good pickup because it's a question I've actually got an image that I show in my class of a guy that was in this position. He's got blood down his legs. He's got blood around his collar and then but he laid back on a bed and
29:46then there's nothing here. And this is he bled profusely. All right. But there's that initial blast where it kind of poured, you know, poured onto his legs, poured onto but this area was was protected. It had specific margins to it >> and you can appreciate that sometimes with blood deposition >> and that explains it. It all depends on the attitude, physical attitude of the subject that you're talking about where they were positioned. And again, people don't think about this. Your clothes move independent of your body. They do not move um they do not move in concert with your body to the degree that they're like a
30:26second skin on your body. they they're going to arrange dependent upon how they're physically constructed, how they're uh how you're dressed, are they is it tucked in, is it out? You know, all these kind of dynamics play into it.
30:41>> So, it might move in the same direction, but the timing may be off.
30:44>> Yeah, it's going to be completely different because you've got your body's rotating on one axis and the shirt is is not keeping up with it. So, >> okay, Steve, do we have that video? The side profile one.
30:56>> Okay. So again, this is not something we can show on screen, but you guys, if you follow the case, you've probably seen this online. But let's just play this real quick >> just for us. And here, so this is at the point of impact. You can see obviously the back of his head where his hair meets the neck totally shifts position on the shock of entry. The shirt almost in concert on the frame.
31:18>> Mhm.
31:19>> Changes positions too, but it changes at the top. So, like if I'm looking at the back, yes, there's movement in where the shirt is on the upper back, but when I look up at where the trap meets the neck, it moves profusely right there in >> I'm going to say eyeballing at about a 25° upwards direction.
31:38So, seeing as the bullet is fired from technically above him at 138 yards as they say, is that strange that it would that the neck and shirt are moving almost like in an upward direction like that as opposed to online?
31:55>> Yeah, I couldn't say uh because because of the dynamicism of this and that shirt is also anchored in the back where he's leaning back like this. Do you see that?
32:04So, it's anchored. It's kind of held in that position. It really doesn't change position there. So, how is that energy going to transfer about or how is it going to translate in appearance to the cloth or the fabric of the shirt as as this round is allegedly striking the body? I find this shot particularly uh let me rephrase that. I find this imagery particularly fascinating because of what you're seeing relative to the anatomical changes. U >> anatomical changes.
32:35>> Yeah. Well, you can see the neck actually protrudes a bit there. Not a bit significantly. It pulls away posterly. Posterior, right? You can see even the hairline changes there.
32:49>> How does that not have an exit wound if it changes that profusely?
32:53>> I have no idea. the energy transfer if it if it did in fact you know um as Baron had pointed out earlier which is fascinating relative to what they're saying about C2 through C7 I think >> yeah um an incredible level of violence internal violence there um and it the skin is reacting to that wave of energy that's going through there and Lord only knows I I would love to know to what degree. Well, first off, specifically what was what vertebral body was actually impacted like specifically because you can get this kind of peripheral fracturing that takes place because of a concussive event, you know,
33:42where you'll get these little hairline fractures and all that. But which vertebral body did it actually slam into? if that's what they're saying, you know, with C2 through C C7 and how is that um how is that affecting externally the skin there and and the the hair itself?
34:04>> Yeah, that's >> it looks like it's being blown.
34:06>> It does. It really does.
34:08>> Like it looks like a rush of air is driving the back of his hair up.
34:11>> Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And um the and the skin actually billows as well.
34:19You can see it. The >> what what do you mean by billows?
34:21>> Well, the diameter of the of the neck of the neck if you go inferior to the right ear. Okay. And then posterior downward like this. The elasticity the elasticity of skin has always fascinated me relative to things I've seen [snorts] happen to human bodies. um how it'll extend and then it'll uh retract again after this has happened. You've got a lot of things that are going on internally. All of the muscular structures that are in there, the fascia that even connects the skin to the muscle. If you don't know what fascia is, if you've ever um had a pork roast, um that's that thin white membrane. you
35:00know, it's on the surface of of uh of you know, like pork roast or beef roast or whatever it is that you know, you kind of have to strip it off, that sort of thing. The fascia is even impacted and affected and it anchors, you know, it anchors our skin in place right over the surface. You know, you've got the dermis and then you've got subcut fat and then the fascia is beneath that. It kind of lays over the musculature back there. You were talking about his traps right there, right?
35:28>> Yeah. Anything else there, Baron? You want to clarify?
35:33>> The necklace does that does a necklace snap?
35:35>> Brother, I'm sorry. I cannot My eyes are so bad I cannot even see. Is there any way def is there any way you could expand that for me because I I can't appreciate.
35:43>> Yeah. So, you'll see a flash right above his shirt over his right trap >> right there.
35:48>> Okay. Yeah.
35:48>> That So, his necklace, >> it's got a wave in it.
35:52>> Well, it snapped. Yeah, >> it snapped. It's a very hardy Yeah, >> right in there. Yeah, it's it you can kind of see it right over the front of his neck, but um like between his neck and his between his collar and his his chin, you can see the neck and the necklace then wraps in the succeeding frames all the way around. So, it it obviously broke.
36:10>> Yeah.
36:11>> Um >> is that something you see consistently with people wearing necklaces? They're shot in the neck and it it has >> again it all depends on the caliber of the necklace. I've I've had uh I've had a lot of cases involving people wearing very heavy chains over the course of my career. Um and the the narrow the diameter or the caliber of the metal um they become more more fragile or more susceptible to an impact. Most of the time when I see them though, when I've seen them, um the thing is bent and twisted and that's because a round passed through the necklace as opposed to or maybe a fragment of a round or um
36:57if if if a round is passing through like what we [snorts] refer to as a um an intermediate target. Like if you have rounds that come through a wall, which happens frequently, you know, with particularly with highowered weapons, you know, AK-47s, those things of the sorts of things that have this tremendous muzzle velocity, you can still retain enough energy that, you know, you'll have necklaces broken. I've seen that happen. But from a direct impact, >> yeah, generally from a direct I've never seen it like in a concussive I'm not saying it couldn't happen. It's very well possible, but from a concussive
37:34event, you know, I don't think I've ever seen one snap.
37:36>> Yeah, it looks like it snapped down by, you know, it had a charm on it that was hanging down by his sternum.
37:42>> I think Baron's pointing at right camera one. Let me do Baron's pointing right here. It's just below where his camera is. So, I just want to point that out.
37:48You're pointing right here.
37:49>> Right there. Yeah. So, he had a a a cross charm that was hanging there and it looks like that's where it broke. And it's it's stumped a lot of people because they say how how do you take a round of the neck and then your necklace breaks in the middle of your chest and then slings over your head.
38:03>> So I figured I'd ask you since I had you here.
38:05>> Did uh do we know that I'm assuming they collected that necklace?
38:11>> They did not.
38:12>> Erica Kirk is currently wearing it. A repaired version of it.
38:15>> Lovely.
38:16>> They did not collect it. That was actually in the Brian Harpole Shawn Ryan interview. Or no, maybe that was Frank Turk that talked about finding it.
38:22>> Is that the pastor guy? Yeah, Erica apparently was calling asking about the necklace. Nobody knew why. No, no, nobody I knew identified a necklace with Charlie is that was like the identifying characteristic of Charlie. Um maybe a microphone but not a necklace.
38:37>> And that's that's one of the major problems I have with high-profile cases is that and again I'll go back and return to what I said earlier. When you start to treat when you start to treat cases differently than other cases, that's problematic.
38:55>> Yeah.
38:55>> Because from an evidentary standpoint, the necklace has value.
39:00>> Um because if it broke, guess who I want to take a look at it? I want toolar people to take a look at it. I want the tool mark people with the crime crime lab. I want them to see it. I want them I want them to see how'd this thing fracture. Give me your opinion. Yeah.
39:14Because again, ruling in, ruling out, you know. No, I'm not going to give a necklace back to somebody that was around the neck of an individual that has been publicly executed. No. You out of your mind?
39:28>> How about the mic?
39:30>> She's got the mic. She's got the mic in a in a like like like a [ __ ] Lombardi trophy in some glass box that she takes to events that you pay 10,000 bucks a [ __ ] plate to donate.
39:41>> And and it's still got the blood on it, by the way. But like, don't you think that should probably be in the chain?
39:47>> Every everything there.
39:49>> Thank you. Thanks for having >> has evidentary. You You're going to get me spun up now. [laughter] >> Everything there.
39:56>> Everything there has evidentary value.
39:59That chair is particularly has particular value.
40:04>> Oh, I didn't even think of that.
40:04>> You talking about the chair that Terrell Farnsworth stood in to get the camera?
40:08>> Well, I mean, people are going to do what they do in the immediate.
40:11>> Yeah.
40:13I don't necess >> what's the evidentiary value of the chair?
40:16>> Oh, well, I'll tell you specifically, [laughter] >> Joseph. Not to direct you a little bit, but when you're talking just a little bit more on an angle just so people here can kind of see it. That's better. Is >> that better? Okay, >> that's perfect. [snorts] >> I'm sorry. I've got to >> You're doing great.
40:29>> I've got to direct my eyes. I'm going to look at you. All right.
40:31>> Okay. No, no. I want you to look at Baron, but just like keep it where you're kind of like in between us. That kind of [laughter] thing.
40:36>> I want to tell you I love your haircut.
40:38I love your haircut, by the way, too. It looks good, man. Thank you. You got a haircut since yesterday, didn't you?
40:43>> No. No. I just thought that yesterday I forgot to talk behind my ears. I It's okay.
40:48>> It's a bad word. Okay. So, >> market he's learning. [laughter] >> Uh, so that chair has specific value. Do you know why?
40:57>> No.
40:58>> Okay. Think about how we're sitting right now. Everybody at home, think about how you're sitting. Okay.
41:06the elevation that you're talking about the position of the body of his body comes into play here. And that's significant because the platform on which that chair is positioned should have been assessed without him in it in that position or wherever they found it because you can never like let's say the chair got kicked aside or kicked away.
41:32>> It did. you cannot go back and place it in the exact position. However, there's an accounting that has to take place with that specific chair because even if that chair came off the line at the manufacturer with a 100 other chairs, that chair is unique to itself, the measurement from the rear of the legs to the back back here. And how does his body fit into that chair? What position is he in? Because you know we're talking here one of the big questions here is trajectory right you know we're talking about is it a flat trajectory is it an elevated position whatever it is that chair has significant value and it can
42:12have evidence on it as well blood deposition these sorts of we don't know what's on the chair you know for all I know somebody's I don't know where it is now I have no idea I don't know if it's been you know if you go to a university I can go to my university and we've got stacks of chairs everywhere they just take the chair and stack it back up or did the state police or whoever it was, did they collect that chair?
42:33>> That's his chair.
42:34>> Okay. Well, >> and his platform.
42:36>> Yeah. And did they collect it and did they hold on to it or did it go back into the rotation >> or be thrown away?
42:44>> Yeah. And that's a problem. That's a That's a >> So So who would that fall on? Would that fall on the police?
42:50>> Oh, hell yeah.
42:51>> The people actually examining the crime scene.
42:53>> Yeah. Once once people are absent the scene, get your ass out of there. And I'm referring to any civilians that are around there because if you're not part of the investigative team, you're a civilian. Period. End of paragraph. All of that stuff should have been secured at that particular time. And this is not me Monday morning quarterbacking. This is baseline stuff. This is like ground.
43:17Like this is something that you would teach a freshman class in forensic science 101. So, what would it tell you if there was no chair and no platform and everything had been removed?
43:29>> Well, it's going to tell me that any kind of measurements that you take where you're trying to pull trajectories, your data is potentially skewed.
43:38>> Yeah.
43:39>> Yeah, you're good. I I have coffee for you right there. Deep got it.
43:42>> Look at that. He's on it, man.
43:44>> Come on.
43:45>> He just floats in and out of my man.
43:47>> That's it. So, all right. So, chair is a problem. Also, this is not an adjustable chair as far as I can tell. This is >> No, it looks like a wireframe kind of, >> right? Yeah.
43:56>> So, it's a static chair. Imagine if they put that back in rotation. Jesus Christ, that would be insane.
44:00>> I think it's more likely it was thrown away, but >> maybe the police have it. I don't know.
44:04>> We don't know.
44:05>> No, I hope they do. And all of the surface area there.
44:09Uh, De, is there any way you can There's one. Yeah, hold it right there if you can. If you don't mind, just freeze it right there. Actually, [sighs] we can put that on screen, too, because there's no bullet right now. YouTube, there's no bullet, no blood, no anything. We're in concert. He's not pressing play on the video. Thank you.
44:25>> Okay. So, do you see the um and um forgive me Baron, I'm I'm because I I don't know what's the composition of the surface that that this thing is contained on. Carpeted, indoor, outdoor kind of. So, it was it was a grass base and then there was a platform, an elevated platform that was um >> Oh, that's what I'm referring to right here. This the surface of this platform.
44:52What is that?
44:53>> It was a It was a plastic platform with a I believe a metal exterior around it and then metal legs that went down.
45:00>> Yeah. So all of that surface surrounding that chair moving to his left forward any of that area right there has value to it because you've got blood deposition there. Now you say why is that important? was very important because you want to demonstrate you want to retain that from an evidentary standpoint to you can like you cannot go people ask this question frequently when you have like a a really u bloody scene they want to know if you can uh approximate the volume of blood that was spilled you can't that's an empirical impossibility but you can demonstrate it visually to show where the deposition is
45:40and this is not this is not a sightseeing tour this is something that you hold on to and you want to hold on to everything. This is something significant. This is where a homicide and we can all agree it's a homicide.
45:53This is where a homicide took place. All right. If it was on a carpeted surface in an apartment, I want that section of carpet.
46:01>> Yeah.
46:01>> Um I've gone into places where we've completely pulled up lenolum. All right.
46:07I I know I have colleagues that have pulled up ceramic tile before and held on to it. It's pretty significant piece of information here that you're retaining. And so that in and of itself is important, but also the structure of this platform along with the chair, the height of the platform, the underlying ground, the topography of it.
46:31>> Well, they dug that up and paved, >> right? Yeah. And so, no, I'm just saying that >> I wasn't even going there yet, but No, no, forgive me. But I No, I'm just saying that in totality >> in totality when they started working the scene, they didn't have anybody hooked up on charges yet. Everything there has value to it. Yeah. Every single thing. I'm not saying that you go out and you need to keep those the railing that's keeping everybody back.
46:55Uh you don't you don't want that. But I tell you, I want >> the closest radius.
47:00>> I want the top. I want that that canopy.
47:04I want to see this. I want to know if there's I want to know if there's blood deposition up there.
47:09>> I want to know if I've got anything above him.
47:11>> Could that rule out? Could all of that that you just described rule out the explosive microphone theory or any of the other theories? Because, >> you know, if you said the shirt you might be able to test rule out what about the chair? What about the platform he's sitting on? What about the tent?
47:25Yeah, I I suppose that it could because with an explosive event, you're going to have residue that and um you know, when an explosive event takes place, it you know how I talked about the the powder a little while ago, the it acts like talcum powder.
47:42>> It's a very violent event in the in the immediate, but you've got this particulate matter that kind of showers down on everything. It's not it's because a lot of stuff is it has no aerodynamic uh characteristics or uh not no but it li Thank you very much. It has limited aerodynamic uh characteristics and so >> gravity you know it's just going to fall and it's going to settle and so you want to test these areas. If you look at, you know, even, you know, even overseas when there's been explosive events, you know, uh, just with our troopers that have been, you know, deployed all over the world, uh, when they, you know, they
48:20have teams that go out there and they do post blast assessments relative to all this. Uh, you had it with Boston Marathon, you know, all these things.
48:29You can go out and you can do these samplings of everything. Well, that's something that people are thinking about, and I don't know that they were thinking about this at the time. Um, you could either rule it in, rule it out.
48:41Uh, certainly, but for my purposes, just from the deposition that appears to be gunshot related. Um, I'm going to want to know about the impact, the surrounding area, how blood is deposited. I'm going to want to see that chair, his clothes, and not just the shirt. I'm going to see the pants as well, his shoes, his socks, anything that's on him. So would it, and again I asked this earlier, would it fall below the standard in your opinion if the chair, the platform, and all this isn't preserved and it was just cleaned off and thrown away or put back in rotation?
49:15>> Yeah. Way below the standard. Yes.
49:19>> And where would it be stored? Just from a layman's perspective, >> in an evidence room somewhere. And again, it all depends on who's processing.
49:28So, anything you identify, anything you identify as evidence, you don't think should have been turned back over to TPS USA to store?
49:34>> Hell no.
49:35>> Okay.
49:36>> No. Are they an investigative agency? Do they have prosecutorial powers? You know, because we're talking about it again. Let's all kind of come back.
49:45>> I'm not being a smartass. I'm saying let's all come back.
49:48>> Center mass here.
49:50>> It's a homicide investigation, right?
49:52[laughter] It should not be treated any differently than any other homicide investigation out there. [clears throat] Period. End of paragraph. Now, here's one thing about this, and we mentioned this earlier, but now you're really bringing into context when you talk about all the different pieces here and things you would have wanted in a perfect world, preserved or not touched at the time. A lot of homicide, most homicides that occur, you know, it's in a more secluded place, a lot of them, or at the very least, it's not in front of 2,000 people.
50:17>> Yeah. You don't have an audience.
50:18>> You don't have an audience like that.
50:19So, in this case, you have a public event, a major speaker, chaos immediately ensuing. So naturally, there's going to be some things that are not treated perfectly well right away just because of the cascading effect of so many people there. That said, once his body, >> and I'll come back to that video with carry into the truck, def in a little bit, but once his body is taken out of there and people begin to disperse a little bit and leave, let's start with the video of that we have def of the camera guy removing the camera SD cards that were behind Charlie right here.
50:55Is this the kind of situation where there should be cops trained to be way closer to the perimeter? Number one, and number two, not letting anyone get into a space like this >> in an ideal world. Yeah. But if you're talking about campus police that are there that have limited manpower, I would imagine at this point and um Baron, correct me please if I'm wrong here. Um, I'm assuming that there are no other law enforcement assets around this area other than campus police.
51:26>> So, not exactly. The the guy in the blue shirt in the background and there's another guy in a red hat that keep ducking in and out.
51:33>> Yep.
51:34>> Those are uh officers from other agencies that were playing >> this guy back there in the far back.
51:40>> So, for them, they understand at this point. Now, I'm thinking about crowd control and all this stuff. Um, like your boy that just walked into frame there that's pouring water over the back of his neck or whatever the hell he was doing. He He doesn't need to be in that space. Period.
51:58>> And I don't I don't know whether he's law enforcement. I know for a fact the other two are. This is 9 minutes later, by the way.
52:03>> Yeah. He doesn't need to be there.
52:04Period. Yeah.
52:05>> That guy doesn't Nobody needs to be within that area because I can The thing about Okay, here's the thing about crime scenes, and we teach this over and over again. You can always set your perimeter up at a very distal uh uh distal point.
52:22Okay? All the way around. Right?
52:24>> You can first off you can do that.
52:30>> And then you can contract it where you're bringing it back to center.
52:34However, >> so get back, get back, get back >> as far you want as many people away. And you're going to cordon that entire area off. What when you run into trouble is when you only focus on that and you you know you set your tape up or whatever it is you create this this boundary in that little area. Well, you know as an attorney if I go back and I move that tape >> guess what happens? You can say well this was not controlled out here. This has been contaminated you know at this point in time. So you always start big and then you contract after that.
53:12>> So even though they weren't UVU police, the fact that they're uniform, not uh uh plain clothes officers carrying badges and guns, they know that this crime scene should be sort of sacrosanked in this moment.
53:24>> Yeah. I teach at the state police academy in Alabama. That's basic training for academy graduates that if they if they're, you know, post-certified police officers in the state of Utah, which I'm again, I'm assuming they are, >> they know that that's a critical area right there. You don't want to let anybody into that area specifically.
53:48Those people up on that amphitheater area >> in the back >> in the back. And I'm just throwing this out there just for consideration. in an ideal world. And again, giving them a little bit of grace because they ain't got a lot of manpower. All right? I think that we can both we can all acknowledge that. Okay? Because there's some things that are just it's an it's not possible to facilitate. However, the stands up there, you see, I don't care if you left your book bag, your phone, whatever it is, you ain't getting back in there. Period. because I don't know what value any of that stuff, nobody knows what value it has at that critical
54:24moment in time, right?
54:25>> You're pushing everybody back. You're locking it down and you're going to keep it locked down. And >> uh >> so you think having an employee milling around the area, the immediate adjacent area uh in Terrell Farms was his name.
54:38But you think that falls below the standard?
54:40>> Yes, it does. Okay.
54:41>> Yeah, they should. you know, you get out of here. Unless unless he is a principal witness at that point in time and they need to speak with him, he still shouldn't be right there. You come here. You stand right here. Do not move from this spot. Yeah. Don't walk around.
55:01Don't pour water. [laughter] [snorts] >> Don't pour water on the surface, please.
55:06The crime scene.
55:07>> I beg you.
55:08>> That's That's a no-go. So you don't you don't want to because you're introducing something into this now p and understand how I'm using this word. This is a pristine crime scene at this point in time or should be. It's pristine in the sense that it's untouched at this point. It has not been processed. You want to take any element that you possibly can away from this.
55:32It's going to impact how any of those structures are set up or were left behind or whatever the case might be.
55:38Well, I'll profer that the guy walking around talking to those two cops, >> grabbed the chair, set it up onto the camera, took the cameras down, moved them, set them on the table, uh, removed some object from it. We we believe it's the SD card. That's his story. Removed something from the camera, and then walks off. Is that Does that fall below the standard to allow that to happen?
55:58[laughter] >> Can I play that on a loop?
56:03>> Yeah, that's >> I just wanted that on the record. Yeah, that's on the on low.
56:09>> Oh my god.
56:10>> Yeah. Uh yeah, that that would be below record. The below the standard. Yeah.
56:16>> Is there any if if you were the responding official on this scene and you got here right now. This is 9 minutes afterwards and it's still somewhat pristine minus water boy over there. When once you begin to examine all the things you just walked us through, the chair, the the ceiling, the canopy above him, the splatter, the area around it, and and let's say someone also shows you the video, so you've now seen that, and you know the shot came from up there. As you are looking out from the vantage point of Charlie, what are you most looking for at that time?
56:47Like, what are what are the key elements that you want to take note of to try to solve where this may have come from?
56:52>> I'm going to start concentrically and then work eccentrically. So, I'm going to look at I'm going to look at those things in my immediate area and then extend out my field of vision >> um incrementally.
57:05>> Um and again, [snorts] in a perfect in a perfect world, if if I were like the sole guy that was there, I'd be saying, "Send every postcertified officer that you have available to my location. We've got to lock this thing down." Matter of fact, if there is currently a uh a police academy class in session with cadetses, send them out here. We'll direct them to set up a perimeter and face outward and don't let anybody through.
57:39>> Was there ever a point where something like that happened too late, you know, 40 minutes later or something like that?
57:45>> They did establish a pretty good perimeter around the the top of the amphitheater, like the last concrete step. That's a great spot to have it, >> but it was 20 plus minutes after.
57:56>> Well, again, going to playing devil. I don't know if I'm playing devil's advocate. It's just uh practicality.
58:03I've been, you know, I've I've been out on cases before where I'm sorry, guys.
58:08There's some kind of cord or something here. There we go.
58:10>> Um hope I didn't unplug anything.
58:13um [snorts] where we we just we didn't have the ability, you know, to cover and you know, who nobody anticipates. You can go through all of the um you know, through all of the emergency management stuff that they send you through where you have critical critical events and you have mass casualty events and you can, you know, tabletop it is what they call.
58:38you know, you go in, you tabletop all this stuff, but until it actually happens, you don't know how it's going to h, you know, how can you plan for this scenario? Well, you always try to plan for the very worst that you possibly can. It's almost like, you know, containment where you you can always contract it. But if you if you ain't got the warm bodies, you ain't got the warm bodies.
58:58>> Do you consider the SUV they took him out in as a crime scene?
59:03>> Probably.
59:06Is there valuable information you could glean from accessing that SUV?
59:15>> Again, back to Kennedy, it's not the same as a Kennedy limousine because that's where a violent act took place.
59:22>> Um, it has value to me in that uh if I'm a law enforcement um or crime scene person, I don't know any of these people in his group. I don't know them. and and uh if I'm, you know, working the scene, if I'm involved in this, my name's going on the report, I'd want to hold on to it until, you know, let me see the vehicle. You know, what did what did you do? What did you do? What did you do? Where were you seated? Where were you seated? What did you say? What were your actions? Did you remove anything? Is there anything we should be looking for in here? Now's the time to tell me right now because I
59:58don't want to get this thing and find something on the floor that you you didn't tell us about. So there's a come to Jesus moment, you know, where you're talking to everybody, tell us what you did, and then it's at that point in time that they can either choose to retain it or, you know, release it. But I'd have to there's going to be photos taken.
60:18There's going to be photos taken of the sink to document it if they if they cut it loose and send it back to from whence it came at that point in time.
60:26>> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
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