0:02Probably not the smartest thing to say.
0:03>> No, but it's not illegal.
0:05>> But I was so furious at the whole [clears throat] system at this point.
0:08Like I'm just this young innocent girl.
0:10Yes. Did I enjoy the money? Did I buy too many pairs of shoes? For sure, you know. Um but that was really it. I really went into this marriage to love and to have a life with this man. And so then he got arrested and I just was like, "That's it. I'm done.
0:27I'm done." He filed for divorce right away.
0:30>> I didn't file for divorce right away, but I told him I can't do this anymore.
0:33Because also in the before he got arrested when I was talking to him about it and I was like, "This was really hard, your drug addiction, uh your abuse." He was like, "It wasn't that bad."
0:49>> Oh, he said that?
0:50>> Yeah. He said that to me. And I I was remember I was getting sushi and I'll never forget it. And I didn't know the word callousness.
0:59Now, maybe he didn't want to admit how bad it was for fear that I would leave him. I I you know, I don't know what his reasoning was, but that really the lack of remorse was really the knife in my heart.
1:15>> Probably in his mind, I mean, I don't know if you can correct me if I'm wrong here based on what you think, but he probably just looked at it transactionally like, I gave you all these things. probably.
1:26>> You have you have everything you want.
1:28Like you can't deal with a little [ __ ] >> Yeah, probably. I mean, I I don't know, >> but that could be a take on it. But for me, that was >> that was not correct.
1:37>> Yeah.
1:38>> Yeah. And so then uh he went to our Southampton house and I stayed in um in our Brookville house and that was my beginning of liberation.
1:47>> And he's under indictment like talking to prosecutors about a deal. So, you know, he's going to jail.
1:53>> Yeah.
1:53>> Too.
1:54>> Yeah. And you know that that like you said like you now have the leverage like he's going to be going away. You can take care of yourself, do what you got to do. What was the money situation like though? Did you just assume everything was going to be taken or?
2:06>> Yeah. I drove to the courthouse with a million dollars worth of my jewelry and I gave it up and they took it all and I was like, "Take it."
2:16>> Oh. For his bail?
2:17>> Yeah. $10 million in bail.
2:19>> Oh, so you still >> Yeah.
2:21>> You were giving it yourself to bail him?
2:23>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to abandon him like like that on the courts. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be like I'm taking the jewelry. I'm out.
2:31>> I might have been like bye-bye.
2:32[laughter] >> No. No. I'm not that type of person. No.
2:35And so we gave up everything we owned and I was happy cuz it was blood money and I didn't want it.
2:39>> Blood money. That's how you looked at it.
2:41>> Yeah. I didn't want it.
2:42>> So you thought he was guilty of sin for sure.
2:44>> Yeah. I was like, I don't want this. If they're getting 11 counts of whatever they are, money laundering. I'm like, I don't want it. And the money was a trap.
2:52>> Yeah. The money didn't buy me happiness.
2:54The money did not give me any protection or safety, which I thought it would, right? So all the things that you think that money is going to give you, zero. So I just was so I just wanted to be free and calm and dramaree and peaceful.
3:13That to me was that was worth a billion to me.
3:17>> That's well put. Really well put.
3:19>> Yeah. I mean, people have like the quote like money can't buy you happiness, but it can help.
3:24>> If it's not if all those other variables are given up, I don't think it really helps at all.
3:31>> No. No. I I mean, I'm living proof that it that it's >> that it wasn't >> it didn't it didn't make me feel any of those things that I thought it would make me feel.
3:43>> What did the therapist say at this point? Like once he's like she's like, "Yeah, I knew this all."
3:47>> Yeah. She was like she I I don't really remember but you know again she was always there for me and um and it was at that point that Jordan cuz Jordan was sober and his sponsor says calls me up and says Naen I don't care what you're going to do you're going to leave him you want to date but if you don't go to this place you're going to marry the same exact type of guy or meet the same exact type of guy like it was a psychological center and I was like no way I called them up that day checked myself in and I went to a place called the Karen Foundation.
4:21>> Wait, you checked your like a rehab center?
4:23>> No, it's like an emotional um it's kind of it's really for people like us who were dealing with addicts, right?
4:30>> Yeah.
4:30>> And so it's like a fiveday intensive psychological intensive to to heal.
4:36>> Wow. I I don't think I've ever heard that's kind of a cool resource.
4:39>> Yeah. It's called Breakthrough at Karen.
4:41It's still there.
4:42>> Yeah.
4:42>> It's Karen Foundation is an amazing amazing addiction center. They're all over the country now. The one I went to was in Pennsylvania.
4:48>> And it's And it's just 5 days.
4:50>> Yeah. Five days.
4:51>> So, is this like just an intensive like getting to the core of you need to recognize what happened here?
4:57>> Yeah. Like I didn't I didn't know that I could say no.
5:00>> I didn't know that. I didn't know about boundaries back then. Nobody was really talking about boundaries. Now it's you know, everybody talks about boundaries.
5:06[laughter] It's like every other word.
5:08But so I learned all these things. I learned about my family of origin. I learned about >> your family of origin, >> meaning like, you know, my mother had just survived and I was just surviving.
5:20I wasn't really thriving. Like, today I'm thriving.
5:23>> Yeah.
5:24>> Right. Um, just learned about how to not my my I think my the thing that they made my sentence be my caretaking made my life chaotic like my over caretaking.
5:37And so then I just really worked on that and all the strings that went along with it and they did family role playing. It was amazing amazing place and I'm sure it's even more incredible today.
5:50>> But that was the beginning of my new life.
5:53>> Yeah. So you but that's like that's almost like an intensive >> what's the word I'm looking for?
6:00>> Not therapy session. I mean that's what you're doing. It's it's obviously therapy. But there's another term I'm looking for. It's like an intensive retreat in a way where you got to be like, "Hey, we're gonna get to your reality. You're going to go home a new person." Yeah. But like this is not two months or three months or something.
6:15It's like five days.
6:16>> It's literally from 6:00 in the morning till 11 at night. They break you down >> and they put you into two different groups >> and it was the best thing I ever did.
6:25Now is that what really I mean you were working with a therapist this whole time so obviously like that >> interest is there for a long time getting internal and stuff >> but is this a real turning point in where you get what's the word I'm looking for like >> completely self-reflective as far as like recognizing all of the psychological patterns that had gotten >> yes >> the relationship to this point.
6:52>> Yes. Yes. It's the beginning of it.
6:56>> Yeah.
6:56>> It's the beginning of it. It's the beginning of it. Um, you know, they were like, "You're a codependent and he's an addict." You know, now in my research and studies, I don't necessarily just agree with that. I think there was a lot more going on, but that was a really great uh starting point for me to really start to heal. And because remember, when I'm in therapy with him, I'm just managing. Yeah.
7:18>> There's no healing going on. So, it was a great starting point for me to heal.
7:21>> That's a good way to put it. Managing.
7:23Yeah.
7:24>> Yeah.
7:24>> Yeah. I was just managing. And so now I just am like, okay, never going to do that again.
7:32>> Now, what what else though did you think it was? You said you just used the terms you're codependent and he's an addict, but what were the other variables?
7:39>> Well, now I know we were in the quintessential trauma bond, right? You know, I had no idea again about narcissism or this coercive control or intermittent reinforcement or these >> intermittent reinforcement. Yeah, that's where uh 70% of the time they're they're cruel, controlling, abusive, and then 30% of the time they're nice, kind, and generous, and helpful. And that's actually what creates the bond. So, I didn't know about all of these things back then.
8:08But, but it was a good start and a good foundation for me to start to get my power back.
8:14>> Do you think he was also bipolar, too?
8:17Because like these patterns I'm I'm not a psychiatrist obviously, but these patterns are >> as you describe them are reflective of like hot and cold, >> nice and mean. Not really a lot of 50%.
8:28It's zero.
8:29>> Not a lot of 50%. Not a lot of 50%. I mean, probably, you know, I don't I would hate to diagnose him >> even today.
8:39>> Even today. [laughter] >> Good for you.
8:41>> Yeah.
8:41>> But he So, this like kind of starts your new life. Yeah. You get your kids. I Is this when you start like divorce proceedings because he's going to jail?
8:50>> Yeah. I just say to him, "I want to get divorced." He moves to one house. I'm I'm in the other house. He's busy with the FBI doing whatever he's doing. And I had I had had a a little company. I had a maternity company.
9:02>> A maternity company.
9:03>> Yeah. I made maternity clothing for women because remember, I'm pregnant.
9:06So, I hate all the maternity clothing.
9:08And so, I have a website, a catalog, and a store. So, I have my own little business. And I was dating I was like dating Michael Bolton. I d >> You dated Michael Bolton? I did.
9:20>> Wait, so you rebounded with Michael Bolton?
9:22>> No, just for fun. Just for a few weeks.
9:24>> Yeah. So you rebounded with Michael [ __ ] Bolton >> a lot. A lot [laughter] a lot a lot of lot of men. I think a golf pro, the guy that owns theory. Yeah, I was having fun. And then >> is it weird dating though? like right away after being in such a long relationship.
9:42>> I was I was Look, we have to remember I'm 32.
9:44>> I know.
9:45>> Yeah. I'm ready to date. I'm ready to date. I haven't felt like I've been loved in years.
9:50>> You took a fiveday retreat and you're like, "Let's go.
9:52>> Let's go. Let's do it." Um and so I was dating and working really hard and raising my kids and it was a happy, very happy time. And then about a year and a half later, I met my current husband.
10:04>> And what how did you meet him? First of all, >> on a blind date. Another kind of blind date.
10:10>> Yep. Another blind date. Which is kind of crazy that I did that again, right?
10:13Yeah. Let's >> I mean the last one you knew the guy though coming. So it's like [laughter] >> what? But how did who who said Yeah.
10:20>> My old business partner and he had given my husband current husband is amazing dancer and he had given this girl's brother B dance lessons for his bits for something. So he knew her for like 40 years and so he was living in California and he was in the garment business too and I said I'll go with anybody he wants. All right, let's give it a whirl.
10:43And then that was it. Now >> very nice man.
10:46>> Even before you got there, I want to come back in a second, but like when you're starting to date these other guys, which >> I mean that's a Michael Bolton for a few weeks, that's a flex, but you [laughter] know, like are you very suspicious of these people when you're starting to date them? because you're like, I got it wrong.
11:02>> Now I Now I don't trust anybody. So now I went from being the most trusting person in the universe to not trusting.
11:08Yes.
11:09>> It's got to be hard to develop anything when you're like >> It is. It is hard. But now you have to remember it's also not so much about trusting other people. It's also about trusting yourself because now I've gotten educated. I'm understanding myself more. I'm understanding relational dynamics a little bit better.
11:26I mean, I compared to where I am today, I'm still green as hell, but I'm I'm feeling, you know, I love relationships.
11:35I love love.
11:37So, I'm I'm ready to fall in love, but >> I want to You're ready to fall in love?
11:43>> Yeah. I'm very weary of falling in love, but I'm not against it.
11:46>> Okay.
11:47>> Yeah. I'm not against it.
11:48>> So, it's not out out of the question, but you're like, "What could go wrong?"
11:52>> Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, now I don't trust people.
11:54>> Yeah. Okay. So you meet your now current husband you've been married I guess for what like 20 years something like that.
12:02>> So this one this one this one's a successful marriage >> 23 years. Yeah.
12:06>> Okay. So what what about him made you trust him and how how long did that take?
12:12>> It's you know what made me trust him was when we've had our first fight uh he said to me oh yeah I get that. I hear you. And I was like, "What?
12:26>> That's never happened before."
12:27>> I was like, "You hear me? You're willing to collaborate? You're willing to cooperate?"
12:33>> I couldn't believe it.
12:34>> What was the fight over?
12:36>> Something like I don't even remember.
12:38But it was something stupid. It was like where to go for dinner or something. I don't know.
12:42>> Um, but it was Yeah. And I And I now I have a saying. If somebody can't hear you, they can't love you.
12:48>> Oh, I I might use that. That's pretty good.
12:50>> It's good. Yeah.
12:50>> I'll give I'll give you some creds on that. Okay. If >> someone can't hear you, they can't love you.
12:55>> Yeah.
12:55>> So, you never felt like >> Jordan actually listened to you. You felt like he listened to respond.
13:02>> Yes.
13:03>> Rather than understand.
13:04>> Yes. That's a good way to say.
13:06>> Okay. So, your new husband when you're dating him, you felt like he actually saw you, understood you.
13:11>> Yes. Yes.
13:13>> That's interesting.
13:14>> Yes. That's usually like, you know, when you break down anything in the [snorts] world, not even just romantic relationships, any type of relationship, it never ceases to blow my mind how much the very first thing to go down in many cases is just communication.
13:29>> That's right.
13:29>> And then everyone else's flaws get exacerbated by that if they have them.
13:33>> That's right.
13:33>> But like, God, it seems so simple, but it you get those wires crossed even once with somebody and it just >> I know. Yeah. Yeah. No, communication's everything. And you have to be able, we have a collaborative part of the brain and for some people it's just not activated. And for his it was and he's very caretaking.
13:54He would like bring me tea. Right.
13:56There's my acts of service. Right. Right there. He's Italian. He's a great chef.
14:02Makes homemade pizza. I love pizza. I'm from Brooklyn.
14:05>> And so we just And he had three kids. I had two kids. We were all the same age.
14:09My favorite show growing up was The Brady Bunch. I was like, "Here we go."
14:14And um and he said to me, "I live in California. Why don't you move to California?"
14:18>> How long did that take? Like how you said you were ready to fall in love, but you were like weary of it. So how what was the timeline?
14:27>> Two years.
14:28>> Okay.
14:29>> Two years. Yeah.
14:30>> So you're feeling it out for a while.
14:31>> Yeah. And then >> eventually just feels safe.
14:33>> And then I feel safe. And um my and then Jordan was wearing his ankle bracelet and decided to take a helicopter to Atlantic City.
14:46So he I was actually able to move.
14:50>> Wait, what?
14:51>> Yeah.
14:51>> Um [snorts] I I'm so confused.
14:53>> Okay, so I'm dating John.
14:55>> Yeah. What year are we in? 05.
14:57>> Yeah. No, no, no, no. We're We're like in 2000. No, no, no. We're in 2000, maybe. Yeah. So Jordan's not in prison yet.
15:06>> He doesn't go to prison for six, seven years. He doesn't get sentenced for six, seven years.
15:10>> Really? I didn't know that.
15:11>> Yeah. So, but he's out with his ankle bracelet and >> uh he he's but he does this stupid thing and takes a helicopter to New Jersey with an ankle bracelet.
15:22>> You can't do that. And so [laughter] my attorney says to me, "Uh, I know you want to go to California. You can probably go now."
15:32>> What? Why couldn't you go? Because you kids. Yeah. Because I'd be taking the kids. Yeah. And I'm not I was never looking to take his kids ever. But if he's gonna be in jail before his sentencing, which is really what happened. Then the judge was like, "Tell her to go." And then we we left and we rebuilt our life.
15:51>> Did he like did Jordan have access to really any like he's taking a helicopter to AC. Did he have access to money at the time?
15:57>> I don't know cuz remember now I'm not with him so I have no idea what he's doing >> here. Hear no evil. See no evil.
16:03>> Yeah. And I don't know why he would do honestly cuz we weren't talking.
16:06>> Yeah.
16:06>> I was like, he did that? All right.
16:08>> Was he getting jealous at all that you were out there again?
16:11>> You know what? My husband was really good. He said to me, I'm going to call Jordan and I'm going to take him for breakfast. I was like, really?
16:20[laughter] >> Okay. And he did. And he said, I'm going to be around your kids and I know what it's like to have somebody around my kids and I want to meet you.
16:28>> And did they get along? They got along right from the get-go.
16:32>> Wow.
16:33>> I think Jordan really respected that.
16:35>> Now you go to California though. Was Jordan cuz it's several years before he even goes to prison. Was he able to see his kids at all?
16:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would send them back for the summers and then he moved to California.
16:46>> Were you ever worried about that though?
16:48Like obviously he loves his kids but he's his own worst enemy. He's going through a crazy time.
16:52>> You know what? At that point he was really humble. He was very sober.
16:56>> He was humble. He was he was >> define humble.
17:00>> He was different. There wasn't that that grandiosity. He just he was into the simple things. He was into the simple things. He'd bake cookies with them.
17:11He'd cook with them. He actually was with them doing things with them.
17:16>> And uh no, he was sober. And I always know how much he loved his children.
17:22That that's that's a fact. 100 150%. and my sister was there. Had a lot of friends in Long Island. And I'm the type of mother that, you know, I have children with this man.
17:34I have to respect that.
17:36>> As long as he's a good dad and they're being safe with him, I'm It's not for me to play God, you know, and be like, you get to see your kids like this or that's not cool.
17:46>> I I agree. But yeah, if there were ever a time where people would be understanding, >> yes, they would be. But he but he demonstrated all uh >> he was just really being a great dad.
17:57>> It's it's kind of crazy though like how crammed this timeline is though for you to get to this zen because in a way like >> you're dealing with a progressively deteriorating marriage for what seven eight years something like that. He's a drug addict. That makes it 10 times worse.
18:13>> Yes.
18:13>> He then gets sober but it's miserable for a year. He then gets a he gets under federal indictment. He's facing [ __ ] 40 years in prison if things go wrong >> and like you divorce him, you start dating, you find a man you love, he does something stupid, you move to California. like this is all happening like that part the end.
18:33>> Yeah.
18:34>> Happens so fast and yet you're able to get yourself to a place where a you can fall in love with again but also b like >> you can have the zen to step back and be like you know what he actually >> you know I I I hated this guy in a lot of ways based on where it got to but >> he does really care about his kids my kids with him and he's a good like you use the words like he's a good dad at that time.
18:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was a great dad.
19:00So, and I'm just not I don't know. I again if I thought they were unsafe, if I thought he was still doing drugs, but he was really a perfect citizen except for the Atlantic City thing, you know, for that little moment. But because he's being watched.
19:15>> Yeah.
19:16>> Right. So, he's he's very calm. And >> you weren't worried about him going back to drugs, though.
19:22>> I really wasn't because he's that type of person, you know, once you like once he makes his mind up, he's in it.
19:29Yeah, he's he's he's really like that.
19:32And if I saw any signs of that, then that wouldn't be the case. But then he moved to California two years later >> to be with them. Yeah. To be with them.
19:40>> All before prison.
19:41>> Mhm.
19:42>> So they let him move to California.
19:44>> They did. Yeah.
19:45>> How'd that work?
19:46>> I don't know. I don't know how he did that.
19:48>> By a judge.
19:50>> I know. I don't know. Maybe. I really >> There was some hesitations.
19:53>> No, I don't really know. Honestly, I don't know. But I just know he he did.
19:57He moved to California. And it was probably nice for him, too. Yeah.
20:00>> It was really nice for all of us just to start over.
20:02>> Yeah.
20:02>> Yeah.
20:03>> Now, how how close was he to you out in California?
20:05>> 10 minutes away.
20:06>> Oh. Oh, that's dangerously close.
20:08>> Yeah, he was close. He was close.
20:09>> You handled this so well. I'd be like freaking out like, "All right, maybe an hour. That'd be good."
20:14>> Yeah. No. Uh, it was okay. You know, I I knew Listen, I know how much I love my kids and I know how important they are to me. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are.
20:27Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help. And you
20:53can join my newsletter via the link in the description below.
20:56>> And so, he did that and I I'm sure he wants to start over, too.
21:00>> Yeah.
21:00>> You know, not be where everybody's talking about you and cuz California, New York's pretty far.
21:06>> Yes.
21:06>> Yeah. It's very far.
21:07>> Few miles there.
21:08>> Yeah. And it's a totally different lifestyle, totally different way of being.
21:13And um and nobody knew like when I moved nobody knew about any of it, >> right?
21:18>> Unless I brought it up, >> right?
21:20>> But it's not like if I lived on Long Island where everybody be talking about it.
21:24>> When you were like called the Duchess, like he would refer to that in the movie and stuff. Were you ever because of his high-profile rich guy running around New York doing some crazy [ __ ] once in a while? Was that like a public thing too where you were referred that way when he was arrested?
21:37>> So that's just like a that was like an inside joke kind of thing.
21:39>> Yeah. Yeah.
21:40>> So you're totally anonymous.
21:42>> Yes.
21:42>> Out there. Yeah.
21:43>> There's no movie, there's no book, >> right? There's no Nobody knows anything.
21:46Yeah. So, it was great.
21:48>> Yeah. So, he didn't go to prison till like 05, >> something like that.
21:53>> Yeah. Maybe 05 06. I don't know remember exactly, but it was it was a few years later. Yeah. Probably 05.
21:59>> What did he do? Like 3 four years.
22:01>> 22 months.
22:02>> Okay. So, a little less than two years.
22:05But he had been with his kids as they're growing up before that. So, how did you guys handle like, "Oh, well, now he's >> Yeah, he's gone for a little bit."
22:13>> We we told the kids.
22:15>> We told the kids together. I don't even remember that. I think my kids probably remember it more than I do, >> but we did. We told them and they visited him with my uncle and my aunt would take them. Um I think twice.
22:26>> You didn't take him to do it?
22:27>> Definitely not.
22:28>> Okay.
22:28>> Yeah.
22:29>> Not your scene.
22:30>> No. No. And that wasn't my [snorts] place. That wasn't my place. But yeah, so and then I restarted my life.
22:40>> Were you thinking at this time like you wanted to take your personal trauma and like actually make this into something where you could use as an expertise? Was that already a thought?
22:49>> No, it was never a thought.
22:51>> Never.
22:51>> It was not a thought. I actually just decided around 38 that I was going to go back to school to become a therapist because I believe therapy had saved my life.
23:00>> Right. Okay. So maybe I asked that wrong. That's kind of what I'm thinking.
23:03>> Yeah. It wasn't like I wanted to help this population.
23:06>> Oh, >> which is that happens much later on for me. I just want to be a therapist to everybody.
23:13>> I'm not like, oh, I want to help women.
23:14I'm like, oh, I want to help people with personality disorders, couples, anxiety, depression. And so, I go back to school and that's when he starts to write the book. Or he had written the book. I don't remember. He might have written the book by then.
23:26>> Wasn't that like Tommy Chong told him to do it?
23:29>> Yeah, cuz he did it in jail. So, it had to be like 2005, 2006, right? I go back to school. I think 2007.
23:35>> Okay.
23:35>> And um I got my masters and then you have to do 3,000 hours to be a licensed clinician.
23:42>> 3,000 hours of >> face to face therapy.
23:45>> Okay.
23:45>> To get trained.
23:46>> Wait, that's a lot of hours.
23:48>> That's a lot of hours. [laughter] >> That's a lot of hours. Yeah.
23:52>> That's a good thing though.
23:53>> Yes, absolutely.
23:54>> Yeah. And then I like, oh my god, I have to do this. I might as well just stay in and get my doctorate while I'm doing the hours. And then I did that and then that's um when yeah I think it was like the movie came out in 2013. I finished My Doctor in 2015.
24:10>> Now he writes the book. You had said this earlier in our conversation. He's like I I did it for us. And you're like no no the [ __ ] you didn't.
24:18>> Yeah.
24:18>> But it comes out I believe like it did pretty well like before the movie like it was a bestseller.
24:23>> Yeah it was very good.
24:24>> So you read it like you said it's comedic. There's things that are certainly remembered differently, but how how quickly after it being published did he first say to you, "Hey, they're looking at making a movie about this."
24:37>> You know, he always said it, I think, all along, but I really didn't pay attention to it.
24:41>> Like, it'll never be a movie.
24:42>> I'm like, "It's going to be a movie.
24:44It's not going to be a movie."
24:46[laughter] But I should have known. I should have known.
24:50>> I should have known to believe him.
24:52>> When you should have known to believe him.
24:53>> Yeah.
24:54>> Cuz when he said he would do something, he >> Yeah. Then he's going to do it. Yeah, he's going to do it.
24:59>> Yeah, he's actually I I have to say this. This this [snorts] is really bad to say now, but it's been a while since I worked on Wall Street.
25:05>> When we [laughter] we were training to do our jobs, Yeah.
25:08>> someone got a hold of the Straten Oakmont sales manual.
25:13>> Oh my god.
25:14>> And I will admit, we did read that cover to cover.
25:17>> Yeah.
25:17>> I I hope no one in the office saw that.
25:20>> But he was uncanny >> Yeah. at being able to sell people.
25:27Like, we haven't really addressed that today. Like, >> yes.
25:30>> Yes. He's lovebombing you. He's doing these things.
25:32>> He's selling me.
25:33>> Oh, yeah.
25:33>> Yeah. There's nobody like him to sell >> like like he could sell sand to someone in Saudi Arabia.
25:40>> It's unbelievable. It's true >> to this day. Did you ever see cuz he he did I don't know if he still does it but he did his podcast for a while and he did an episode this had to be like five six years ago with Grant Cardone. Did you ever see this or hear about this?
25:55>> I think I've heard about it but I don't I've not seen it. I've never seen his podcast.
25:59>> Grant Cardone some psychoscientologist who like claims to be all about sales and Jordan. It's really hard to watch that and not think Jordan's 100% right because you can say what you want about Jordan with the fraud and all that. Like >> he knows how to sell.
26:14>> He knows how to sell.
26:15>> This guy doesn't know sales at all. Like he doesn't know sales at all. Like you're sitting here telling me stuff. I know it's not true. And you're like watching it and you're like holy [ __ ] Cuz he's just picking it apart and he can smell it.
26:26>> Yeah. He's smart. He's got the skill in both directions, which has got to be tough because then he can use, you know, in the wrong ways, he can use that as a manipulation >> tactic because he knows when he's getting sold or when someone's going to try to pull one around him.
26:38>> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's a great great great seller.
26:42>> Yeah. Now, when when did you uh find out it was going to be Scorsese? Was that not until the call about Ken Chimmy?
26:50>> No, I I knew about that. I I knew that it was Scorsese and Leonardo. I was like, "Okay, here we go." [laughter] Yeah. The hits just keep on coming with JB. That's just what happens. He's the gift that keeps on giving.
27:06>> Yeah.
27:06>> Yeah. And um so no. And then I was just like, "Okay, you know, and [snorts] and it just again, it was bigger than me.
27:14There was nothing I could do about it."
27:15And so at some point I was like, "I'm just going to surrender because there there's just there was nothing I can do." Like when you can't control a situation, am I going to ruminate about it? Am I going to fret about it constantly? I'm like, "No, I got to focus on my life, my kids." And it ended up turning out very well for me.
27:36>> Yeah. Yeah. And you didn't talk for >> years after this came out. You didn't open up a TikTok till like a few years ago, I think. Right.
27:43>> Until 2022.
27:45>> What made you Cuz again, like it ended up being iconic. Everyone can think of these scenes right here. Obviously Margot did a hell of a job like making this iconic, but >> you know what made you suddenly, >> you know, 10 years later or nine years later, whatever it was, be like, "All right, you know, I'll I'll come out and talk now."
28:04>> Well, one of my young patients, cuz I had social I had my Instagram since 2017, and one of my young patients says, "You have to go on TikTok." I'm like, "I'm not going on TikTok." I'm like, "I'm a 54 year old woman. I'm not filming myself every day. That is that's ridiculous. She was like, "Naen, you need to go on TikTok." Shout out to Alex. And so I call one of my friends and I'm like, "Can you come film me?"
28:30You know, so we do some films. We do some videos, but I'm doing it mostly about psychology. So then she comes over, my my friend, to film me again.
28:38And I said, you know, there's this there's this YouTube um video on Tik Tok. I mean, on there's this YouTube video that has a million views of me. She goes, "What?" I said, "Yeah, it's me with my uh father-in-law, Max."
28:55>> She goes, "Are you serious?" And I said, "Yeah." She goes, "We're going to start to film about The Wolf of Wall Street."
29:00And as soon as she said that, I started to shake.
29:03>> 25 years later, I started to shake.
29:06>> Why'd you shake?
29:06>> Because I was like [laughter] because like that's scared. Like my body just My body remembers. Your body keeps the score. The body holds the trauma.
29:14And she was like, "You can do it. It's time for you to tell your story." And I was just like, "Well, you know, there are a lot of women in my office coming in abused still." I'm like, "This is ridiculous." And so now I'm starting to think to write my book, right? Might have been writing my book at that point.
29:28I think I might have been writing my book. And so I did like a few videos and they went viral.
29:33>> Yeah.
29:34>> Right away.
29:34>> Of course.
29:35>> And I And they were like, "More, more.
29:37We want to understand more. We want to know more. Duchess, we love you." Oh, you know, and I was like, wow.
29:45>> It's amazing though that that would make you shake 25 years later when you think about that 15 years into that, the movie was every like I would think that would make you shake. Even if it's not all true and they change some things, the concept of like reliving that to billions of people seeing it, >> you know, >> but it wasn't me telling it.
30:04>> Yeah. It's not you actually, but >> it's not me, right? So, and I am I am a naturally I'm an introvert even though it doesn't seem like it, but I really could see that >> recharged by writing and doing things like that.
30:18>> And so, I was freaked out to do it. But I knew I could take >> this insanely popular movie and exploit it to help women everywhere.
30:30>> And so, cuz that was what my book was about. What what did back back to when it came out though? Like what did your now husband think about it again? Like >> he was cool. He was cool about it. He just was like, "Okay, here we go."
30:44>> It's like I'm married to a badass now.
30:45>> Yeah. [laughter] Oh, then you know what would happen? He'd go on the golf course and the guys would be like, "You know, you I saw your wife naked in that movie." He's like, "It's not my wife."
30:53[laughter] >> I mean, it was symbolically you though.
30:57>> Yes. Yes. So, he's he's very cool about it. He's great.
31:01>> He didn't ask you to reenact anything.
31:02>> No, he [laughter] didn't. He's just a great guy. So, he was very supportive of the whole thing.
31:08>> What about your stepkids, too? Cuz like they're like, you know, they weren't around for any of this. But, >> yeah, that, you know, I don't know.
31:14Everybody was, you know, I think and [clears throat] when you when you're parents, the fish stinks from the head.
31:20>> If the parents are cool, the kids are cool.
31:23>> Yeah.
31:23>> You know, we weren't like, "Oh my god, could you I mean, I actually had Jordan over the day the movie came out."
31:30>> You had him over?
31:31>> Yeah. Yeah. to like talk about it or >> No, because I have it's came out Christmas Day and I have my kids in the morning and he takes him in the afternoon and I could tell when I spoke to him he was nervous and I I think my son had gotten like a weird phone call >> and I said, "You know what? Instead of going out, why don't you bring why don't you just come here?" Like I have leftover prime rib and potatoes and he did >> for all time's sake.
31:54>> Yeah. With his with his fiance and my husband and we watched old movies of the kids and Yeah. So I had him over the day the movie came out. This is the modern family show we need right here. This is way I like this plot line better.
32:06>> You like it better? Yeah.
32:07>> That's cool. It's it's just really cool that you guys all had like such clarity on it, you know? It it it >> blew up. It's a cultural phenomenon.
32:16Like we'll be talking about it 40 years from now. Just >> you had the greatest director, the greatest actor of the era, and then everyone else in it was incredible. It's funny as well. Like can you laugh at it?
32:28Like obviously you have your own personal whatever.
32:31>> Yes. Yes. I can I can laugh at it, you know. Um and I think it's important that I do get to tell my narrative now.
32:38>> Yeah.
32:38>> Right. And so that is the beauty of Tik Tok and because you know I did suffer a lot.
32:46Right. So so but I can hold both. Two things can be true. I was very tra traumatizing and it's funny and I get to use it and to me that's the best part. Now Jordan was not so thrilled once I started to use it.
33:01>> Oh, he wasn't?
33:02>> No.
33:03>> Nope.
33:04>> You get a phone call about that?
33:06>> Uh kind of. Yeah. Yeah.
33:08>> What he what he said?
33:09>> He just was like, "Your mom, I can't believe she's doing this to me." And I'm like, Jordan's my victim now, is he?
33:17>> She was on the other foot. I just said, "Your dad made a movie and wrote a book.
33:21I'm always gonna be respectful about it.
33:23I can do a three-minute [ __ ] Tik Tok."
33:25>> Yes.
33:26>> Yeah.
33:27>> And he didn't consult you on writing the book. He didn't consult you on write on the movie.
33:31>> Right. Right. Even though he kind of says he did, but no. And I just said, I'm not I'm not doing this to I'm not going to say anything about your dad that he hasn't said already 10 times worse.
33:40>> Right.
33:41>> Right. So, I'm just going to tell my narrative and I'm doing it to help women. and the train has left the station. I'm doing it.
33:50>> Outside of some of the things they changed in the story or the timeline or little scenes that didn't happen, what do you think was the biggest thing about you particularly that I don't know was misrepresented in there?
34:04>> H I mean honestly they portrayed her as a young girl who's madly in love, who loves her kids, who's trying to like chase this guy's coattails, right, and keep up with him. So, I mean, they just missed the depth of my character. I mean, clearly who I am really in my authenticity. And I think that they they showed me very getting very jealous all the time about women. And we fought all the time about women. We really never fought about women. We fought about his drugs, >> right?
34:32>> But that probably wouldn't have been as funny.
34:36>> Yeah. To tell the story. I get it.
34:37>> You know, because it's a lot sadder.
34:40>> It's a lot sadder. It's a lot It's a lot darker. And you know, Terry Winter writes Jordan in a way that's the way he wrote Tony Soprano.
34:48>> Yes, that's exactly right.
34:52>> I I love Terry Winter.
34:54>> Yeah. The very likable, you know, he writes about a very complex character.
34:58>> Yeah. Like you knew Tony Soprano was this narcissistic, philandering, psychopath, murderer, but you rooted for him. But you rooted for him, right?
35:07Crazy, right? So Terry Winter has a knack for doing that. So, >> have you ever talked with him about that?
35:13>> I met Terry once. I met Terry once.
35:16That's where the scene uh with the straw with the wine comes from.
35:21>> Wait, that was real?
35:22>> Yeah, that was real.
35:24>> Do you still do that?
35:25>> No.
35:26>> Okay, that's good. [laughter] >> I don't do that anymore.
35:28>> It's kind of funny.
35:28>> It was a phase.
35:30>> Yeah. But did you talk to him about that? like, you know, you're making them lovable or you didn't really know at that time if you're just discussing.
35:36>> No, but I know I loved the Sopranos and I knew that about >> Yeah.
35:41>> Uh Tony Soprano.
35:43>> God rest James Gandalfi.
35:45>> He was incredible.
35:46>> Incredible actor.
35:47>> So good.
35:48>> Um so I know that that's I didn't know I know that that's the way he wrote the character. So I'm not surprised at the way Jordan came across. I think part of it is though like not all women but there's a pattern where women at a high level fall in love with two phases of the man right they fall in love with the man and you can think the more >> you know usual traits ambition provider protector a lot a lot of things you didn't get by the way you know as it would turn out but they fall in love with that and then they fall in love with the other side of the personality where he shows like the little boy
36:28sometimes like >> that's a very good point. How do you know that? You're so I've thought about this a little bit.
36:33>> So psychological. Yes, that's a very important point because often when I was with Jordan, I would have a lot of empathy for his little boy.
36:43>> There you go.
36:43>> Yeah.
36:44>> Cuz that's the thing. Tony Soprano episode one.
36:47>> Yeah.
36:48>> Look at the ducks.
36:49>> Yes.
36:49>> You know what I mean? Like he's like a he's like a [ __ ] kid in [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah.
36:53>> And there's there was this thing where he could turn on this and Jim obviously did an amazing job showing this, but he could turn on this rage and this nastiness and this murderous whatever and then the next minute, you know, >> want to hand you a few hundred dollar bills and, you know, go make some hot dogs or play with the ducks.
37:12>> And with Jordan, it's kind of like the way they show it in the movie. And I don't know if maybe it even if you look back on it, if some of this actually felt this way while you were going through it. It's like he's this crazy psycho macho man, but then and he's got these horrible traits and he's addicted to drugs and whatever, but then he'll do some [ __ ] where you're like you're like a little kid and you almost want to take care of them.
37:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's that's what creates the bond because these abusers aren't bad all the time.
37:41>> No, >> they're just not.
37:43>> That's the tricky part.
37:44>> That's the tricky part. Show you the humanity.
37:46>> Yeah. Because if they were, you wouldn't be with them. And especially for somebody like me, I mean, clearly I'm highly empathetic. That's why I'm a therapist, right? Or I'd have no patience if I wasn't. And I have a lot.
37:57And so, but unfortunately, that empathy gets weaponized.
38:03>> Yeah.
38:06>> You know, you say you're an introvert, by the way. Like, I'd be surprised about that. I'm I'm not because to do your job in a way, right, >> you have to be the kind of person that was always kind of watching other people rather than >> Yeah. making yourself the middle of things and you come across that way.
38:19Like there's some times today where >> Yeah.
38:21>> I got to probe a little more than you would expect, you know, to get you to >> Yes.
38:26>> kind of go there. But that's a really good for what you do, that's an amazing trait to have, I think.
38:30>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um and I love people and >> I believe, you know, even after everything I've been through and after all the stories I hear all day long from women, which are atrocious. Yeah. all these dirty John guys that are just abusing and betraying and financial abuse and sexual addiction and man if I sat here one day just invite me to come tell the stories you'll have the best podcast on the planet because the stories that I hear all day long are atrocious and what people can do to each other in love >> in love >> yeah supposedly right when they're in love >> right air quotes >> yeah is uh uh is can be very very
39:14disturbing and yet I'm still an optimist because I know the people can heal. [snorts] >> People can heal. Do you think they can change?
39:24>> I think they can change to a point. I do >> to a point.
39:27>> Yeah. To a point. Yeah. Yeah.
39:29>> What do you think of Jordan today?
39:31>> Today? Um him and I really don't have much contact. I mean I saw him actually two days ago cuz he was with my daughter. So I bumped into I don't have much contact.
39:40>> No, I don't. But and I like he we were just happened to be at a restaurant in in Westport together and I just quickly said hello to him and walked away because you know I don't really have that much to say to him.
39:52>> You know I just don't I mean he's a great dad. He's there for my kids. We get along you know when we see each other but we're not connected in any way like we used to. I think me talking about it really created that separation.
40:05>> Yeah. Cuz he didn't like that.
40:07>> Yeah. Do you think like I would say when I hear something like the fact that he freaked out on you for you know being able to actually tell your side of the story after he put everything public that there are aspects of him that certainly have not changed right >> but do you think there are other aspects of him that maybe have for >> sure for sure yes >> yeah he's happily married to a lovely young woman he's like I said he's great with his kids um but here's the thing it's like you know these sorts of very toxic relationships and they happen all the time and all we have to do is turn on the news and I mean we see them all
40:44the time. They're very hard to endure but for me it made me really look deep inside of myself >> and I took it as an opportunity.
40:54Sometimes I say the wolf was my Buddha because if I hadn't if he hadn't cracked me open like that and I'm not giving him credit for who I am today but that experience forced me to be deeply reflective and really grow. And so from that now I have a career where I help hundreds of women every single day get out of these toxic relationships and it's beyond fulfilling. So when you asked me, you know, did I think I was going to help, you know, do this for a living in this capacity, I wish I could tell you I had some grand scheme [laughter] like I was this genius that thought up this Makyave of plan, but I didn't. And
41:38I offer that to your listeners to kind of trust the process of life, too.
41:44>> Yes.
41:44>> And it just all emerged. I went through that. I moved, the book got written, the I went back to school, the movie got made, like you said, I was silent forever, >> you know, but then something in me was like, it's time, >> and it happened to probably because we were hearing about narcissism so much in the zeitgeist. So, and then I wrote my book, Run Like Hell. And so, you just never know where life is going to take you.
42:11>> Yeah. It seems like you are somebody who you've never had a grand scheme on stuff. Otherwise, maybe you wouldn't have gotten into some of these situations. Not that I think it's a good thing to have a grand scheme on any.
42:24>> No, but you're right. But you're right.
42:26Yeah.
42:26>> Like you But what I'm saying, I mean this as a compliment, is like you let life happen to you and then you're learning from things and then through that creating new opportunities that then puts you in a position for things you never expected to happen to happen.
42:40And it's like >> I think that's like kind of the beauty of life. Like >> yeah, >> people will overuse this phrase where they're like, "I don't regret anything I've ever done cuz it made me who I am today."
42:50>> You can abuse that phrase, right?
42:52Because there's things you probably would want to take back and things like that. But >> you can't change the things you've done or the experiences you've had. You can only then try to use the fuel of learning from them and maybe you turn, you know, turning lemons into lemonade.
43:08That's right. Kind of like you did.
43:10Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't always easy and a lot of uh very tough moments, a lot of tears. Um you know, I lost my mother to cancer.
43:20I'm a cancer survivor. Oh, >> I'm sorry to hear that.
43:22>> Yeah. So, you know, life >> when did you have cancer?
43:25>> I had cancer when I was 39.
43:27>> Oh, wow.
43:28>> Yeah. And then I' I've had like some some bouts of it. I've had it more than once. So, I've uh >> in the middle of all this. [laughter] >> In the middle of all this. Yeah. So, um, >> you're a strong lady.
43:40>> I'm a strong lady. No doubt about that.
43:41>> I'm a strong lady. So, you know, life is not easy, but that's why I believe in therapy. If you keep working on yourself, you can build resilience and resources because life is always going to throw stuff at us, >> no matter who we are.
43:56>> It just you could walk out of here and get in a car accident. I mean, it's that's just the way life is. But, uh, my name actually means hope.
44:04>> Yep.
44:04>> So, I'm just a hopeful person. That's amazing.
44:07>> Yeah.
44:08>> What's that like though getting I mean, you're young. You're 39. You get diagnosed with cancer. Like I I can't even fathom that.
44:14>> It was It was not It sucked. I mean, I was really really hard, but again, I had a lot of support. I caught it very early.
44:22>> You're like, I'm going to be good. That optimism kind of comes in.
44:25>> Yeah, it was scary. It was scary.
44:27>> Yeah, >> it was scary. But um you know, I I've learned that where there's fear, there's transformation.
44:35And >> where there's fear, there's transformation. That's another bar.
44:38>> Yeah.
44:38>> We got a few bars today.
44:40>> Yeah.
44:40>> Yeah. That that's that's the truth. And so we can't hide from life. We have to approach it. And I think I was lucky enough to have a good enough beginning.
44:51>> To give me that solid foundation.
44:53>> Yeah.
44:55>> But people don't have that.
44:57>> A lot of people don't. How much do you think That's one of my favorite topics. I think about this all the time cuz I'm, you know, in a different way than you with different life experiences. I like to think like I'm a very empathetic person as well, but I don't like to >> I don't like to use that to excuse acts, right? Yes. So, I'm like an extreme example. I'm not going to empathize with a terrorist for blowing up a building for 100 people.
45:19>> Correct.
45:20>> But what I do try to empathize with is how did they get there?
45:25>> Where were they from? What what was their environment? Like how did that happen? Right? you know, as a therapist and someone who works with people psychologically, how much do you think, you don't have to put a percentage on. I don't want to make it like weird, but like how much do you think it's people are based on their environment molding them versus like the free will of their decisions to get them to?
45:46>> Yeah, they, you know, I mean, the research says, you know, nature verse nurture, right? So, uh, 6040, you know, but did you see the new show Adolescence?
45:57>> I've heard about it. I haven't seen it.
45:59>> You'll like it. feel you like it. You know, the kid's a 13-year-old psychopath. His parents are very normal.
46:05>> So, you know, I think that you like biologically you could be born, you know, and then you mix it with a family and then a culture, right? So, it's always multiple causality. It's just not one clear linear thing.
46:19>> It's tough though, too, because I agree it's it's multiple, but it's like, you know, people overuse the line. And I say this all the time where they're like, "If I were blank, then I would blank."
46:30>> Okay.
46:31>> You don't know. You don't. In most scenarios, you don't know how you would handle something. It's very easy to like from your glass house be like, "I would definitely be like this."
46:40>> Oh yeah. No, you don't know [ __ ] >> You don't know till you're in it. But like I when I see some of some of these kids who grow up with nothing and then there's literally no opportunity and then they get taken in and let's call it what it is, like groomed. This is an extreme example, but it happens all the time in this country, too. get at age 9 or 10 or 11 when that kid's, you know, riding around with a Glock at 16 and shooting indiscriminately out the window. Again, I'm not empathizing with the act, but like >> statistically, I'm like, how the [ __ ] was it not going to get there? Like, what did you expect?
47:11>> Of course. Of course. Right. There's that saying, hurt people hurt people.
47:14>> Yes.
47:15>> Right. And that's why I do what I do and that's why I even come on the podcast, these podcasts, because I believe education is what's going to heal us.
47:22>> Yeah.
47:22>> Right. education about psychology, education about relationships.
47:27It's the only weapon we really have because when I go to my h my daughter's house now, and I see her with her lovely husband, oh, they're 50/50 partners and they have a beautiful boy and a baby on the way. We broke generational trauma joining.
47:43>> That's amazing, >> right? And that's what it's about.
47:46>> And they have a good relationship with both of you, too.
47:48>> Yes. Yes.
47:49>> Which is like >> Yes.
47:50>> That's amazing.
47:51>> It's amazing.
47:52So that's what it's about, right? She's a more evolved version of me. Her child will hopefully be a more evolved version of her if this world makes it at the rate that it's going.
48:02>> But yeah, that's what we're here for. I I guess >> when you were when you were doing your PhD, you said you went back at like 38.
48:11>> I went 38. Yeah.
48:12>> So you were doing your PhD like while you were battling cancer, too?
48:16>> I think it was right after. Yeah.
48:19>> Wow. That's >> Yeah, it was right when I went to my masters. I just I had had cancer and then I got my masters. Yeah, >> that's amazing. You did that.
48:27>> But so [laughter] you got you got into becoming a therapist and you just said a few minutes ago alluded to it, so I wanted to go there. Like the women you ended up helping are women that sometimes have patterns that are very similar to things you went through, but then there's also all these unique situations and everything. Did you continue to learn a lot more about yourself and the past through these women?
48:47>> Of course. Yeah. I mean, when I wrote my book, Run Like Hell, a therapist guide to recognizing, escaping, and healing from trauma bonds.
48:53>> Link in description.
48:54>> Yeah. Um, and that was I learned so much more. I learned about psychopathy, mchavelianism. I learned about the dark tetrad.
49:02>> Okay, let's break these down.
49:04Psychopathy. Let's start there.
49:05>> Yeah. So, so there's a term called the dark tetrad. And it came out in 2002.
49:10And so, it describes a person that has psychopathy, machavelianism, sadism, and narcissism.
49:17Right.
49:18>> Great traits.
49:19>> All great traits. Yeah. And so there are we we've seen these individuals. We've seen them with Jeffrey Epstein, right?
49:26They are in the zeitgeist. Puff Pittdy, Puff Daddy, what do we call him? Sean Holmes.
49:32>> Um and so they have psychopathy, meaning they're beyond exploitative, highly callous, will just use and abuse anybody with um they have high stress immunity.
49:43Like nothing stresses them out, right?
49:44They can tolerate anything that you or I couldn't.
49:47couldn't deal with. Then there's narcissism, >> which is, you know, you're self-absorbed. You too can exploit people, but it's more about admiration and your image and you can be very grandiose or you can be a vulnerable narcissist and be more neurotic. And then there's Mchavelianism, which nobody really talks about. And that's when these people are highly strategic, highly manipulative, >> planning, consciously, >> consciously, they're planning, right? There's a plan there to but they have bad intentions.
50:23>> And then sadism is the worst because that's a person who literally gets pleasure out of seeing the people that they know hurt and suffer.
50:34>> Do you think Jordan had that? Did you get pleasure out of No. Make I was gonna say I don't I didn't see that back.
50:39>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, so, but there are people running around in the world.
50:45>> Oh, yeah.
50:46>> Right. Like your shoe maker down the street and your baker that are dark tetrad >> and they can hide in plain sight.
50:54>> And they can hide in plain sight.
50:55>> They can put on another It's the multiple personality.
50:58>> Yeah. They wear the mask of sanity which was a book by uh Henry Kleley I think the expert on on psychopathy. Yeah. They wear a mask of sanity. And so so what happens is that these people end up in homes with children and wives and and that's what I deal with helping women. I educate them about it.
51:20>> So you're coming across a lot of different clients who have literally dark tetrd.
51:25>> Yeah. Do dark tetr. Yes. And you're able to see like, oh my god, very clearly your husband or boyfriend has all these traits.
51:32>> Yes. Yes. Yes.
51:33>> Now, how hard is it? I I mean, I know it's varies person to person. Everyone's different, but how hard is it to not necessarily get them to see what that means, but to get them to see that they are literally experiencing that.
51:47>> Usually by the time they've gotten to me, they've found me on social media and they're like, "She gets it." M >> somebody I cuz usually these women feel very crazy and invalidated because that pathological partner >> is gaslighting them.
52:01>> Yeah, >> I didn't do that. You didn't see that.
52:04>> That that didn't happen. You and then so they're they're just totally feel crazy because they've been invalidated and they've been gas lit and they've been lied to and betrayed and manipulated and I tell them no, that did happen. And it's very painful when it's from somebody that you thought was going to love you. Do you come across people sometimes though that you work with where it's like maybe some things are just going wrong and they're thinking the worst but it turns out to be like oh no you're not married to a sadist or something. It's just you don't come across that.
52:34>> I don't come across that cuz like I said by the time [laughter] >> that was a quick no.
52:39>> No by the time they get to me they've they know that that's because if you like if you go on my Instagram I talk about dark tetrat all the time. I talk about all these concepts because I'm constantly educating people.
52:54>> Wrong one.
52:55>> Wrong one. That's Jordan's wife.
52:58[laughter] >> What are you looking at over here?
53:04[laughter] >> She's like, "Nice."
53:06>> Yeah. Yeah. No, but um so I talk about it all day [snorts] long on there, you know, and I'm really educating all the people. Um Yeah. those.
53:17>> Now, it helps also that you've been made into such a public I mean, obviously you've now started to come out yourself, but your figure who you are is such a public domain kind of thing.
53:29>> Exactly. Exactly. So, people are like, "Oh, she didn't just get educated about it. She's lived through this."
53:36>> So, I have street cred and professional >> cred. [laughter] >> Yeah. And and like I imagine you got to have the conversation where you're like, well, a lot of the themes are right, but also here's other things that were happening that the movie doesn't show or the book doesn't talk about. So you have to understand like I'm a I'm a person outside of that.
53:52>> I'm a person outside of that. But yeah, so they and they trust me and they [snorts] know that I have their best interest at heart and I've been through it and I get it. There's nothing like experience. Experience is the greatest teacher on the planet.
54:04>> 100%.
54:05>> Yeah. So I've lived it. I get it and I empathize with them and I understand that coercive control is real. Do you think in any of like those dark tetrred let's start with the most the worst kind of thing like do you think in any of those relationships there actually is any love but the person is sick so obviously like it doesn't manifest right but they actually do love them >> they could think that they love them >> they think they love them >> yeah they can think that they love them but the way I describe this person is that they will I call them a pathological lover in my book [clears throat]
54:42>> pathological means mentally unwell. And I say, "This person will use, harm, exploit, and betray you to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status." That's simple.
54:56>> And that's not right.
54:58Cuz that's about intention.
55:00>> Yes. I mean, that's like my biggest thing with people. I don't I don't use this to explain away things that people do when it's bad or whatever. Like, there has to be a medium there. But my number one thing with people is what are your intentions? Right? If you have good intentions and you just like really [ __ ] up, like, all right, well, if this happens seven times, we got a problem, >> right? If it's a pattern. Right. Right.
55:23But people, we all make mistakes, of course. Yeah.
55:26>> Because that's one thing about the social media era especially, I feel like is so unfortunate. We assume worst intentions at all times on everything with people.
55:36>> And I don't think that's fair. Like I watch people in my business get taken out of context >> on 20 second clips every day. It happens to me too. It does.
55:45>> And like you know I'm smaller but I ignore it. I wonder if I were like the size of Joe Rogan or something if I could ignore all this. I know >> cuz like you'll see like like they they didn't say that. Like I I actually saw one today with Michelle Obama. So like there's this [ __ ] stupid internet thing where people are like oh she's a man. So she literally So she's talking to another man on a podcast and he's a and he's a black guy and she goes, "So as a black man, you know, how does it feel to I don't even remember what they were talking about, but people then took that clip and they're like, "Oh, she's
56:21admitting she's a man." And it's like, >> you know, so for clickbait, that's cruel. It's clickbait.
56:27>> Yeah, that's really really cruel. I know. Well, social media is the wild west, you know, and you have to have thick skin for it. And luckily, I don't give a [ __ ] what anybody thinks about me. And I'm older, you know, I'm 57, so I have a developed sense of self. And >> and when I get a troll, which I really don't, and the only ones I get are, you know, probably the guys that love Jordan, um they're like, "You just left him when he lost all his money." And I'm like, "I'm not going to explain to this guy my whole history." I'm just like I hard it or I just block and delete.
57:00>> There you go.
57:01>> You know, it's not worth it. And then I look, they have one follower and they never post.
57:06>> Jordan might be buying Qatari bat farms.
57:08You got to check that [laughter] out or something from the Philippines. Maybe he's doing that, >> you know? So, it's like, so it's I think if you're going to put yourself out there, unfortunately, in this world, yes, >> I don't agree with it because that's the last thing I would ever do to somebody.
57:23But I don't know. Oh, the world is just getting meaner and meaner, unfortunately.
57:28>> Yeah. I mean, and and you had kids who grew up as as like I did. I guess they're similar ages to me where like they grew up and this started to become a major thing and now it is the thing and now they're having kids. So, your grandkids >> can't even imagine >> are growing up in the world with this and the screen everywhere. Like how do you think like as a parent or just in general like how how you can raise kids properly who are growing up with social media is like and the internet and constant overtransparency is the norm like as as a therapist like how do you even go approaching that?
58:05>> I think what you have to do is you have to realize it's here it's never going away and you have to really teach them how to deal with it. you know, who to respond to, who not to respond to, what age are you going to let them on? I mean, there should be lessons in school now about social media, right? And how and how do we deal with it? It's not going away, you know?
58:26>> I mean, AI, too, right?
58:28>> But listen, when you think about it, the radio, the TV, the computer, we're like, these things are going to destroy the world, you know? We're still here.
58:38>> That's a great point.
58:39>> You know, I think we have to also just learn how to deal with these mediums. I mean, I use Claude, which is my chat GPT person nonstop.
58:47>> You called him a person.
58:48>> Oh, yeah. I'm always like, "Thank you so much, Claude. You're the best."
58:52>> You see, that's using like millions of dollars of computational like saying please and thank you. Now they're like, "Don't do that."
58:58>> Oh, really?
58:59>> Oh, yeah. Sam Alman came out the other day.
59:01>> Thank you. So, I won't do that. Yeah.
59:02[laughter] I just think I'm being nice.
59:03Well, my son told me to do it because one day they're going to take over.
59:08[laughter] >> Be very nice. Don't forget about It's like It's like when you look at the kid and you're like, "He'll be the school shooter. I want to make him my best friend." You make the AI your best friend.
59:18>> That's right. You make the AI your best friend. But yeah, I just think you have to educate I think you have to educate uh these kids about how to use it.
59:26>> It's hard though because you can't helicopter kids at all times.
59:29>> No, you don't know what they're clicking.
59:32>> You don't know. And that's where you have to have a really great relationship with your children.
59:36>> Yeah. that they're going to come to you when things go bad because they have to have their own experiences in the real world.
59:42>> That's how they're going to learn, right? And as parents, we can't freak out, you know, when they learn the hard way >> because we have to give our children the chance to have optimal frustration.
59:53Everybody wants to like dive in and save them. Don't do that.
59:58>> Agreed on that. You can't dive in and save them.
60:00>> You can't dive in and save them.
60:01>> It's just they're dealing with stakes.
60:03like we have more resources now than we did 40 years ago, right? So, it should be easier to parent. But in a lot of ways with the resources we have, the price we pay is that there's a constant, you know, influx of things >> that aren't you that aren't that aren't that aren't them. Yeah.
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