0:01I wanted to be seen doing the bad things.
0:03>> So, you just like walk into like a mob bar be like, "What's up, Frankie?"
0:08>> Pretty much.
0:12>> That's wild.
0:13>> Yeah, sometimes you don't know, right?
0:15Like, they're not all wearing name tags and stuff in there.
0:17>> No.
0:18>> And so, this is how I accidentally got involved in in something that wasn't the plan.
0:24So, one of the bars I was hanging out at, I would hang until close, talk to the bartender, you know, just trying to to make myself known. And her boyfriend would come in and help her close up at the end of the night. I struck up a a friendship with this guy. He was super super nice, you know, person. And I'm making my contact reports at this time saying like, yeah, I talked to this person, blah blah blah.
0:48And eventually, it came back to me through my boss at the time, "Hey, do you know that this guy is like a serious figure in an international organized crime group?"
1:01>> The boyfriend?
1:02>> Yeah.
1:03>> Who's closing up the bar?
1:04>> Yeah. I didn't know who he was, but he was he was huge.
1:08>> So, you weren't even thinking of it like when you're striking up a conversation with him, you're not thinking anything's going to come of this. You're just trying to blend in and act like you're a regular dude in this place.
1:17>> Right. You know, cuz I'm not a cop. I'm not looking for criminal activity. I don't care what, you know, they're up to in that way. I just want to get some of that stink on me, you know, from being around them, you know? And I want anybody who's following me to say like, yeah, it's it's not like when I come home from these trips, I turn into a choir boy all of a sudden, you know?
1:37That's not consistent.
1:38>> Right. All right, so we're going to come back to how you get into scenarios like this. But, now that I think we've gone through thanks for going through like so much of the 9 months there. I have like a pretty good picture of what you did.
1:48It's pretty wild how much you fit into that. But, when you come out of this and now he's like, "Congratulations, you're in, you fuck."
1:55>> Yeah.
1:55>> You know, what's what's day one like?
1:58What how does he now suddenly say, all right, you're in the organization, here's what we're going to go do?
2:03>> So, it's pretty simple. He just said, you know, like I mentioned earlier, we're going to go to this country.
2:08Um I'm going to introduce you to somebody that's been, you know, helping me for a very long time. And so, he's taking the training wheels off easy with, you know, essentially an asset that's pretty broken in, um who was just a trip of a person to meet. Like, I don't know if he was messing with me, right? The guy introduced me to. Um we went to his house for a barbecue. This is in some point in Africa, right? And he takes me into his basement. This is the contact, right? And he's got a freaking Nazi flag in his basement.
2:42And I was like >> South Africa?
2:43>> It's somewhere down there, yeah.
2:45And I was like, is this This is probably just a prank, right?
2:50Like, this is like I'm on Candid Camera here. Um but no, he was he was serious.
2:56>> Full-blown Nazi?
2:57>> Yeah, like he was all about that life.
2:59>> Did he like give you the speech like trying to recruit you into Nazism?
3:02>> No, he just acted like it didn't exist, you know? Like it was just some random painting on the wall.
3:07>> Oh my god.
3:09>> Yeah.
3:10>> What was the nature of this guy's background?
3:13>> So, he was an intelligence officer from another country who had essentially fled from that life and was now working with some pretty nasty countries, so he was moving moving black market stuff based on his former connections he had had.
3:35And we were buying it off of him.
3:38>> Was any of that illegal ivory trade type things?
3:40>> No. No, this would have been like tech stuff, >> Okay.
3:45>> Wow, what a >> military gear from other countries.
3:48>> What a trial by fire right there.
3:51Dumping you right into it.
3:53>> Yeah.
3:53Okay.
3:54>> same trip I got the patchouli sprayed in my face.
3:56>> Right.
3:57>> Yeah.
3:58>> Right. So, that's that's that's the first one, but your what you're known for, I guess, the things that you became most synonymous with during your years were twofold.
4:10One, getting deep in with the cartels, and two, getting deep in with an unnamed very high-level biker king. Is that right?
4:19>> Right. A friend I said I met at the bar.
4:22It was a international motorcycle club that >> Oh, oh, that was it.
4:27>> Yeah, he was in one of the big four motorcycle clubs.
4:30>> Got it. Okay.
4:32So, you get dumped in Africa on this first one.
4:37How do you end up in the crosshairs of the cartels?
4:41>> So, I end up meeting them through connections in the motorcycle club world.
4:49>> Oh, so it was motorcycle >> first.
4:50>> Yeah.
4:51>> Okay, so how do we get to guy at the bar? Like how soon how long after you being an active agent at this point or spy was were you in that bar?
5:06>> A year later.
5:07>> Okay. So, in that I this this is what I'm trying to get at cuz I just like to paint the picture in my head for my purposes here. Hopefully helps people out there, too. In that one year, obviously mentioned the first mission here, some of the [ __ ] that goes wrong, guys in the bathroom, all that.
5:21What are you doing to establish yourself like Did you ever see the movie Donnie Brasco?
5:27>> Yeah.
5:27>> All right.
5:28>> Yeah, I'm very familiar with the story.
5:29>> So, he had to establish himself as, you know, Donnie Donnie Diamonds or whatever, you know, he was dealing diamonds. So, for months and months and months, I think like a year or two, he was a diamond dealer around the world on a legit basis or around the country on a legit basis in that way and ends up getting in the crosshairs of the Bonannos. Are you just putting your services out there as a money launderer to anyone and everyone for that year to like set yourself up in that space?
5:57>> So, I have a at the time I have a primary, you know, corporate cover that I'm using, right? So, I'm still a businessman that's traveling. I'm just a businessman that's doing, you know, dirty stuff on the side, right? So, this is a lot of layers you got to keep >> Is this a public company?
6:14>> It used to be, yeah.
6:18>> Okay.
6:19>> Yeah.
6:19So, I mean, these are real real companies that they get used for this sometimes.
6:24>> Okay.
6:24>> But, um so, I'm doing that and that's within the tech world. So, I'm a businessman who works in the tech world.
6:33And then I'm doing this buy stuff and the money stuff on the side.
6:41>> Would you be given people to target to get jobs like that? Or did you have to kind of identify people where you're doing that on the side?
6:51>> I can't I can't say.
6:52>> You can't say that.
6:53>> Yeah.
6:54>> Okay.
6:54>> How those corporate things are set up is is very sensitive.
6:58>> All right. So, I want to run a scenario by you just to see how realistic this is and if you can't talk about it, you can't talk about it. But, I had one guy who I would call a friend who was he did things around the government and he's like a really connected dude. And so, he gets a phone call.
7:19I don't know, this is a few years ago now at least. He gets a phone call from someone at a major league public company in the United States. Multinational company cuz they all are, but it's based out of the United States. And I say this because you had mentioned earlier like for example, the CIA is not supposed to spy on people within the United States and things like that. Supposed to do things internationally. However, we all know that definitely still happens.
7:41But, he gets this call and they say, "Hey, someone pretty high up at our company just walked into the office of the CEO like it was another Tuesday and revealed that they are a CIA spy.
7:56>> Hm.
7:57>> They have been and they were told that they were now supposed to go tell the CEO this.
8:03And they were here for X, Y, and Z reasons and then A, B, and C reasons that they can't talk about.
8:09And you know, the government had asked them to be on the up and up about that now because there were things that we needed to figure out to be able to advance whatever mission, whatever all this stuff was. Essentially, the CEO is looking at this dude like he has 10 heads. Like, what the [ __ ] is going on?
8:24>> Yeah.
8:24>> So, they call one of the CEO's top people, knows my guy. And they call him and they go, "Have you ever heard of this?" And he's like, "Yes."
8:34And they're like, "Okay." So, he sets up a meeting with the CEO and him and the person who walked in the office and I I don't know if other people came as well, but I know those three were there. And essentially, they iron this all out and they get it figured out so that, you know, whatever they got to do, they do that over here, but we don't know anything about it.
8:53Cool, whatever.
8:55>> Yeah.
8:55>> Is that a scenario you've seen before?
8:57>> Not specifically, but I will say that um there's a lot of legal stuff that goes goes into this. It's not as cowboy as as people think. And if an employee was going to be used in the United States, it would be disclosed to the to the entity that employee was participating in a government thing, whether it's the bureau or or somebody else going and and explaining it, but it's not like they're just hiding us in these companies and nobody knows in in a nefarious way.
9:28>> But, if they were to explain that, would they would they be legally able to tell said company, like, "By the way, you have to keep this confidential" or couldn't the company technically be like, the government just told us this dude's working for them?
9:41>> Well, it depends on the status, right?
9:43So, it is it is a felony to disclose the identity of a of an officer, right? So.
9:49>> Even if you're not in?
9:50>> Mhm. Yeah, so like if somebody in the public knew about the identity of a of an agency officer that was working at the time, you're not allowed to like tell anybody.
9:59>> Really?
10:00>> Yeah, it's a crime.
10:01>> I never knew that.
10:02>> Mhm.
10:02>> It's good to know.
10:04You never know who you're going to run into with that [ __ ] >> Right. Yeah.
10:06>> There's a lot of you guys out there.
10:08Okay.
10:10Yeah, because I like we all know the bad [ __ ] the CIA's done, and we talk about that [ __ ] all the time on the show, whether it be MK Ultra, potentially whacking a [ __ ] president, definitely whacking a [ __ ] president, things like that, you know, but I also I am a realist. You talked about the gray area earlier. I'm very much a guy who lives in the gray.
10:29I recognize that like the people who are pissed about everything about the CIA, who are like, "Defund the CIA." Well, that's probably not the brightest move.
10:38That said, I also recognize why like this scenario I'm thinking of I can't give details of it. That might make it easier for people, but I fully understand why the CIA wanted would have wanted to have someone there, because it had nothing to do with the company. The company was doing nothing wrong. Had nothing to do with them. It had to do with the fact that they do business around the world, and there were some bad people who completely, unbeknownst to them, could take advantage of some things, and the CIA basically just said, "Don't worry about it, you know, we we want to cover that up." Yet, this is
11:08supposed to be something that's like not legal. I don't really understand that when when we live in a global world now where everything's connected, like technically, you kind of have to do things.
11:19There's no way around doing things in the United States, no?
11:22>> Right. Right. And so, there's overlaps to where you have to notify. So, there were federal people that knew when I would be in the United States, and the Attorney General's office knew some stuff as well. And so, I've been in states where the special agent in charge, you know, like for the DEA for instance, had known about that we had to disclose, like hey, this guy's working here, right? So, there's all kinds of lawyers that get involved in this, and they try to play it by the book more than people would think.
11:53>> You ride by the office, give him a little Right. What's up, DEA?
11:58Buckos.
11:59>> Yeah.
11:59>> That's >> funny. Okay. So, this first year, you can't say how you were getting placed to do certain things, but you're doing certain things basically to establish yourself as what your skill set is, money laundering.
12:12And then you end up in this bar, which you already also explained was because you were trying to be seen in places like that.
12:18>> Right.
12:18>> And you fall into this, you know, I guess like the luckiest lottery winner in the bar.
12:23>> Pretty much.
12:24>> Where this dude, completely unbeknownst to you, turns out to be in a top four biker gang.
12:30>> Yeah.
12:31>> Now that you got >> officer in it.
12:33>> He was a senior officer.
12:34>> Not just a guy, he was a senior officer in that organization.
12:37>> Was there any like was he wearing like bling like you or something that you could tell like he was loaded?
12:42>> No.
12:42>> No.
12:43>> No, he looked like a normal Joe.
12:44>> Wow. All right, so he was a good criminal.
12:46>> Yeah.
12:46>> All right, so now that you're told that information by your people, actually real quick, how would you communicate if you're off the books and everything? How does that even work to communicate with base without revealing classified information?
13:00>> Sure, there's so there's classified types of technology that would be used for me to communicate, or I would physically just meet with my boss during this time.
13:11>> Like Leo in The Departed kind of deal.
13:13>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'd have a clandestine meeting with somebody to pass the information along.
13:19>> And in that first year, you know, before we get to this biker guy, this is your first year in the role. You actually are being baptized by fire. You already mentioned the incident in the bathroom, that sounds scary as [ __ ] You found your way out of that, good job.
13:33But like, you know, you'd mention there's some mistakes that are made and there's moments where you think, oh [ __ ] Like, did you have anxiety off the charts just while you're adjusting to now being actually out in the field or how how did you how did you actually process moving into the role officially?
13:53>> I think you just give yourself to it as much as possible, right? And so, all these hesitations that the real you would have, they just don't exist.
14:02That's not how this persona thinks, right? So, you just dive into it and you build in things that help your mind.
14:11>> Like what?
14:12>> Like bravado. Like, um how somebody would handle a certain situation, right?
14:17So, when you're working cover like that, you are constantly planning. When I go in here, if this person says this, I'm going to say that. If they say this, I'm going to say that. If this happens, I'm going to do that. You don't want to think of these things as they're they're happening. You want to consider as many potential scenarios as possible and think through what your reaction would be, whether that's what you say back or, you know, what you do physically. But, yeah, there were there were some mistakes.
14:46And one of the things I realized early on was uh I didn't know [ __ ] about riding motorcycles and that's going to be a problem.
14:54Um so, I found this guy who was a tweaker and he'd been like just Mr. Harley-Davidson his whole life. And I didn't know it at the time, but he he kind of looked he didn't look like a real outlaw. He looked like a wannabe or like an undercover cop.
15:12But, um you know, he had like 50 patches all over him that said, you know, like clever little phrases and stuff like that.
15:20And this guy, we'll call him everybody called him teeth. That was his nickname cuz he had like three of them.
15:27And he was he was a maniac. He was >> find him?
15:32>> in hanging out in the bar, right? And so he wasn't one of the made dudes. But I needed somebody that I could ask questions to without them getting like too bristly about it. And this guy when he would drink you could not shut him up. So I could ask him >> for you.
15:47>> anything. And he used to carry this plastic whiskey jug in his saddlebag on his bike and he would sip on it like at a red light. This guy was wild. Like he's all about it.
15:58But I almost got into trouble with him a couple of times was the mistake, right?
16:03So where I was at there had been a big gang on gang shooting. I think nine or 10 people had died in it recently. So everybody that was in that world was on very high alert at the time.
16:15And he's showing me how to ride my bike and kind of kind of mentoring me a little bit and you know, his his criminal ways, his little very low-level criminal ways.
16:26And he's like, "Hey, let's you know, on Saturday let's meet up early. We'll go bar hopping. I'll I'll show you around town." And I'm thinking, "Oh, this is going to be fantastic." It's like 11:00 in the morning on a Saturday and uh we take off and he takes me to his first bar. It's not a bar. It's a tiny house and there's like picnic tables out front, a big parking lot, this gravel parking lot.
16:49And there's like eight or nine guys sitting at these picnic tables outside.
16:55And so we pull up next to all these bikes. He backs in. I'm like, "Wow, this is an interesting place." And we're walking up to this bar, hypothetically, and all these guys have this look on their face like you just asked, you know, what color their sister's panties were or something. Just a mixture of confusion and anger.
17:14And we go in. It's not a bar. There's like a regular fridge, you know, like from Walmart in there.
17:21Um There's no bar top. There's no There's a couple pool tables and a bunch of signs that indicate like this is one of the gangs.
17:29It It wasn't a public bar. It was their clubhouse.
17:33And so right after we get in, he grabs a beer.
17:38And of course these guys are coming in to ask us what the [ __ ] are you doing here?
17:46And so he's playing hard to get with them and I don't know why he's like toying with this guy cuz it He's pretty much about to get his brakes beat off.
17:55And then all of the sudden he he points at the wall and there's a picture of like this old member like from the '80s or whatever and this little kid.
18:05He's like, "I'm that little kid. That's my dad." His dad was a member of the club formerly. But he thought it was funny. He played this out for like 10 minutes while they're looking to you know beat the heck out of us.
18:18>> enjoyed it.
18:18>> He thought it was the funniest thing.
18:20But I was like, "Well >> you And the whole time what are you doing? Just like, "I don't barely know him."
18:24>> Yeah, who [ __ ] is this guy?
18:26>> What the [ __ ] >> Yeah, somebody call about the electrical work here, you know?
18:32>> Had you had Is this after like cuz you said you knew nothing about bikes or biking or anything. Had he been I guess like taking you on bikes and you picking up things at this point from him?
18:43>> Yeah, so I knew how to ride a motorcycle. I didn't know how to ride a motorcycle like you're in a a club like as aggressively as they ride.
18:51And uh I mean he rode too aggressively. You know, he'd been arrested like I don't know 300 times probably in his life.
18:58And he ended up It wasn't like a a go and blow or something like that, but he'd have to check in at his house like on a schedule, right? For some like part of his release or his parole or whatever.
19:12>> Right.
19:13>> And so he tried to time when he would drink so that he'd be ready again and then like, you know, as soon as he checked in he'd go get some more.
19:21And so we're we're shooting pool. This is later that night. And all of a sudden he gets a call from his wife. And we're like maybe like 5 minutes from his house at this point.
19:32And she's like, "You better get home.
19:33You missed it. Like he's in trouble."
19:36She's like, "The cops are going to be coming." He looks like Tasmanian Devil just like spinning out of the bar. Like there's a dust cloud that's left. You know, he gets on his bike. So I run out after him. It had to be 30 40 seconds later after he took off. Here come these two squad cars like behind him.
19:53>> Whoa.
19:54>> So I get in behind them. Like follow him to the house. He was so drunk cuz he'd been drinking all day.
20:01He parks his bike. The cops are getting out. He jumps into the front yard and tags it like it's home base. Like, "Nope, I was here. You didn't see me anywhere else when you arrested me. I was at my house."
20:14So he was a character.
20:15>> this from behind.
20:16>> Yeah. Like this guy might get me in trouble.
20:19>> Mhm. But he was your he was your Lefty Ruggiero. He He was useful to learn the ropes.
20:25>> Yep.
20:25>> Okay.
20:26>> Stepping stone.
20:27>> But and again like you So you're would you say you were used to it pretty quickly? Used to being this guy and putting on this role?
20:36>> Yeah.
20:38>> When you talked about like going over every scenario of what's said and what you'll say back.
20:44>> Mhm.
20:45>> I'm just thinking of a random 10-15 minute meeting you could have with some international criminal. That could be a million things.
20:53>> Yeah.
20:54>> How do you even possibly plan that? Like I don't plan out before I come in here I mean you see how this is.
21:00>> Yeah.
21:00>> planning out anything. I just go with the flow. But the stakes aren't that like you might shoot me at the end of this cuz I'm made.
21:06>> Right.
21:06>> You know what I mean? They those are the stakes for you. How do you even process all that and then like put it to work in a believable way when someone says something and you're like, "Ooh, that was number 27 on my list. Let me put that one out there now."
21:21Yeah, so there I mean when you're building your cover, there are key elements of it that you need to be able to defend. And so you have categories of questions that would, you know, penetrate that cover like you know, do you work for the agency?
21:34You know, is a question that you probably should think of what he should answer before But a lot of it is and as you get better at it as you go what you get good at doing is steering people away from ever asking you the questions that you don't want to be in a conversation with. Like you can tell.
21:52>> Um you can do topic changes. Usually humor is a good way to transition between topics or to bring up something, you know, that's more important. Like if I you see the conversation heading a certain way that's what's important to them, right?
22:06They want the conversation to get there.
22:07You need to introduce something that's more important than getting there.
22:12>> On the spot.
22:13>> Yeah, and also people even in that are criminals, they don't generally want to be rude. Right? And so you can force somebody into feeling very, very rude to circle back around and ask you a pointed question, right?
22:27You can set that up to where that would be unnatural for them to do that.
22:31>> Your character that you're playing during these years, how similar from a words per minute standpoint is he to you right now?
22:40>> He spoke faster.
22:41>> Spoke a little faster.
22:42>> Mhm.
22:43>> Spoke a lot more.
22:45>> Less, but louder.
22:47>> Louder, faster, and less.
22:50>> opposite of what like Jim Lawler's voice sounds like.
22:54>> Got it. Okay.
22:56Can you turn that voice on right now?
22:59>> To just like talk fast and be more aggressive?
23:02>> Yes, so how would you talk I'm a criminal but I'm I'm I am a middleman for the cartel moving coca- in charge of transporting the cocaine once it gets across the border from the border to LA.
23:19>> Okay. Yeah, what are we What are we talking about?
23:21>> We're talking about why the [ __ ] >> Why you're wasting my [ __ ] time right now or >> Yeah.
23:27>> Yeah. So the time thing is what I would focus on, right?
23:34>> Mhm.
23:35>> So if I'm going to talk faster it's going to be because my time is important to me.
23:40And so I don't want to be sitting here all day spending all this [ __ ] [ __ ] time on this when I don't have it. Like if you don't have what we need, then get the [ __ ] out of here.
23:54>> Mhm.
23:55>> Right? You don't want to sit back right and just like take it, right? You got to be the person in the room.
24:02>> I gave you your 20 kilos.
24:05You're telling me I need 30 now but that's not the That's not the agreement we came to.
24:08>> I'm not telling you anything. We already set down what happened. We don't even need to discuss it right now. It's already been brought up. Let's just fix it up.
24:16>> I brought it up. That's why I'm here.
24:17Why would >> With who? The big guy?
24:18>> Why the [ __ ] else am I here? No, I the Easter Bunny sent me here. So >> All right. I see.
24:27I see. Um the reason I asked that is cuz I want to know how much you're very good at making someone have to move the conversation along but also move it in the direction you want, right? Cuz that's also like that's that's that is my job title in all fairness but it's not that much different in the world when someone else is coming in the room and you both have some sort of goal that has to get accomplished here. They need you just like I need you to be good today which you're doing a great job, by the way, but I need you to kind of go through your [ __ ] they need you to go through the business [ __ ] or something like
25:03that. So, I'm getting to see what that's like making me have to do today on my end, and I'm trying to imagine what they might have felt like in some of these scenarios where it involves, you know, let's call it what it is, it's criminal work, but it's business.
25:15>> Right.
25:16>> Right? It's It may It makes sense to me like why you would have been why that would have been pretty natural to you cuz you're you're very What's the What's the term? Your pitch is very consistent, too. That makes people feel comfortable, kind of like a radio operator.
25:31>> Mhm.
25:32>> A little bit? I would imagine that's probably one of the reasons they liked you.
25:36>> Perhaps.
25:37>> Yeah. Okay. So, you get used to this role. Now we're back to the biker guy in the bar.
25:43How do you Once you are told who he is, you start making friends with Teeth >> Mhm.
25:49>> to learn the ropes and everything before you make an approach. How did you determine it was time to make the approach, and how did you do it?
25:55>> So, I didn't make the approach. Uh they approached me.
25:58>> Oh.
25:58>> And I used Teeth to make this happen because Teeth can't keep his mouth shut.
26:04And so, anything like we talked about before, those uh those avenues to pass information, right? Teeth was my avenue.
26:11I knew that anything I told him would get repeated.
26:15And so, I didn't have to say it directly to anybody.
26:18And so, I leaked things that were valuable to them, right? Like a skill set, right? Like being able to to move money, right? So, I get drunk enough one night, and I just happened to tell Teeth, you know, that I can do this money thing.
26:32>> Did you give them like examples of how you Okay.
26:34>> Yeah.
26:34>> So, then he tells them >> Yeah, what what He doesn't betrays my confidence, right?
26:39>> Right. But you wanted him to. Right.
26:41Was it the guy himself who made the approach to you or was it someone else?
26:45>> It was someone much more junior.
26:47>> Okay. How did that go down?
26:49>> Um they just came up and said like, "Hey, would you like to to come around more often and meet some of the people and and hang out. So the first phase in that world is being a hang around, right? So um he just asked me to to be there, invited me instead of me showing up uninvited all the time was the first step.
27:07>> Do you still have that corporate cover?
27:08>> Yeah.
27:09>> And they know that.
27:10>> Yep.
27:11>> So they know you work for some company, but they're like oh this guy does some [ __ ] on the side.
27:14>> Yeah, which is what they're all doing, right? A lot of those guys have straight jobs.
27:18>> Really? Even in that?
27:20>> Yeah, I mean they got people that are working >> like running a liquor store?
27:23>> Dentist, lawyer.
27:25>> They got dentists and lawyers?
27:26>> Yeah, in outlaw motorcycle clubs, yeah.
27:29>> Really?
27:30>> Yeah.
27:30>> Are they like disguised?
27:33>> No, I mean so a lot of times one one thing you'll see if you look at like pictures of a big club where they're all together, sometimes people have their back turned like with a a hoodie up, some people be facing the camera. That could be because you know somebody's got warrants, it could also be because they've got a job that they think they'll get fired from if they're >> Alexa, can you pull up a picture of Hells Angels biker gang cuz that's one of the big four, right?
27:58>> It is one of the big four, yes.
27:59>> Okay, Hells Angels biker gang group photo. Let's see if we can pull one online that they have.
28:05I've never looked at this.
28:07That's interesting.
28:09All right. Oh yeah, get that.
28:11No.
28:13>> I mean you you can see like on the second row everybody's doing it, right?
28:17>> Oh yeah, yeah. Look Woo hung out at the Hells Angels >> Yeah, they're taking the picture in reverse.
28:23>> And one guy's got his tattoo showing, nice job.
28:26>> Mhm.
28:28>> Okay.
28:28>> And it's this you know, so if you look at the bottom rocker there for the territories and stuff, you know you see like Belgium and you know, it was that international presence that was what was helpful for me cuz again, I'm not trying to you know do a law enforcement op on these guys. I need the international excuse to be somewhere that's not the United States to do my real job.
28:49>> Oh, [ __ ] I keep forgetting about that.
28:54>> My day job, yeah.
28:55>> Yeah.
28:57So, one of the things that guy was talking about earlier, the other knock who may or may not come in here at some point.
29:04When he was approached to do his thing, it was because he had access to someone really powerful. And then they, you know, they only had good personality traits, obviously.
29:13But he immediately said, "Oh, no, [ __ ] that. I'm not I'm not snitching on someone I know.
29:19Find someone else, whatever." They're like, "No, snitch. We don't want you to snitch. We want you to work with them.
29:24>> Right.
29:25>> We want the access. So, CIA's telling you "Break whatever laws you want. Do what you got to Why do you hesitate?"
29:34>> There are some laws that you cannot break, like homicide, for instance. Like, I couldn't like kill somebody in a street fight in the United States.
29:42>> Now, is that cuz we're on camera? You can't say.
29:45>> No, that's that was off limits.
29:47>> Right. So, they >> This is the Attorney General's letter I was telling you about. It specifies specifically what activities you are and are not allowed to engage in.
29:55>> You said in the United States.
29:57>> Right.
29:58>> But if you're somewhere else?
29:59>> I mean, yeah. Um killing people anywhere without uh being ordered to is definitely not on the menu at any point of it, so.
30:08>> Unless your life is in danger.
30:10>> Sure, the same for a, you know, an undercover guy in law enforcement also.
30:14>> Okay. So, essentially though, they the CIA has no interest in sharing with their FBI counterparts what you're finding out or [ __ ] that's going on. In fact, they want this all to continue because with a gang like this, whatever one of the big four you were in, >> Mhm.
30:32>> you are going to be able to go around the world and I'm going to throw out a random country. Let's use Russia again. You may be able to go to Russia and in Russia, because of your skill set, you may be able to steal some, I don't know, nuclear documents because you're there.
30:48>> Mhm.
30:49>> That's basically I'm on the right track as well.
30:51>> That's the scenario.
30:52>> Right.
30:54>> Okay.
30:54>> And it would be extremely unlikely that the local security service in that scenario thought that I was working for who I was.
31:02>> Right. That's not >> Cuz you're in a biker gang.
31:05>> Yeah.
31:05>> Now how like bikery did you get?
31:09>> Uh like a a goatee that came down to here and shaved my head and >> Oh, you shaved your >> It wasn't a good look, you know, a lot of they say this with the disguise stuff too, right at the at the agency. Um when you go into disguise, you're going to look different, not better, right? So I definitely didn't enhance my sex appeal at all, but >> Where I I you got in so young, are you single during this whole time?
31:35>> Yeah.
31:36You'd have to be.
31:37>> Yeah.
31:38>> I mean, I guess you don't have to be, but it'd be pretty dang difficult.
31:40>> It'd be very difficult to be to be able to maintain any kind of relationship.
31:45>> Yeah.
31:45>> But like are you meeting any women along the way just to take care of your needs?
31:49>> I mean, you meet a lot of women in that in that scene. And you know, you get treated like a rock star. Um when you're made in that world, so that was one of the the interesting things about getting out and dropping that cover and that persona is overnight, I went from getting, you know, treated extremely well by, you know, men respect you, women want to be with you to just little old you all of a sudden. I'm like, "Why aren't people holding the door for me? Like why are these women not like throwing themselves at me across the room all of a sudden?"
32:19But >> Yeah.
32:21Okay.
32:22And how how long did you spend with the biker gang?
32:25>> Uh 3 and 1/2 years.
32:29>> And during that whole time are you doing all kinds of money laundering things for them or you also doing other things?
32:36>> Um other things as well.
32:38>> What kinds of things?
32:39>> I worked at a strip club for them for a little bit.
32:42>> Nice.
32:43>> Uh, and it just doing like low-level stuff for them.
32:47Um, I was involved in narcotics stuff with them to at times.
32:53But mostly my contribution was the money stuff.
32:57>> What what's the nature like the narcotics? Like what are what are their roles? Are they just distributors like or I shouldn't say distributors street distributors. Are they uh, smugglers essentially?
33:09>> Everything from the bottom up you can think of because it's not as mandated or or organized as as everybody might think. You might get a guy that's got you know, a connect in Mexico where he's moving metric tons a year, >> Mhm.
33:25>> But you might get somebody else that's like barely scraping by selling meth, you know, out of the back of the strip club. It's not uh, a consistent thing across all the members.
33:34>> Okay.
33:35>> And not everybody in there is even involved, right? There are people that aren't committing that crime. They're in the organization, too.
33:42>> Did you ever do things with them whether it be the narcotics or something else where you understood this is part of the role, this is what you got to do, but you had a real mixed emotions you had real mixed emotions about the downstream effects of what you were doing?
34:01>> Yeah, sure.
34:02Yeah.
34:04Yeah, I thought I thought about that a lot.
34:07Yeah, yeah.
34:09>> I mean, I not to hit too close to home or anything here, but you know where I'm going. I know exactly where you're going.
34:14>> Yeah, like your your brother obviously was was murdered by somebody. That's that's what that is.
34:19And his life was taken because of the substances and then you're involved in moving some substances.
34:26>> Yeah.
34:27Yeah.
34:28So there was definitely a um, a weight, you know, you feel like a hypocrite a little bit, but you're always trying to see the bigger picture.
34:35Right. Right. You know.
34:38You got to stay focused on that and not get too deep on the thought you were just talking about.
34:43>> Yeah. How could you ever turn off like during those 3 and 1/2 years? Like could you ever go home off the clock and suddenly just be like, all right, I'm mad again. [ __ ] these people.
34:55>> No.
34:55>> No. You're that guy.
34:56>> Yeah.
34:57>> Did you ever feel like you were becoming that guy?
34:59>> Absolutely.
35:00Well, and and I'll I'll share something with you.
35:03Um you know, so I said you you tweak the personality stuff a little bit. And one thing that really struck me um emotionally was not just that people seemed to like me better when I was in my persona than who I was before I joined, but also I liked me better in some ways >> Mhm.
35:25>> as well, you know. Like felt better to be that person than than yourself at times.
35:33>> Did you ever feel like you were losing yourself though because of that?
35:37>> I didn't ever feel like I was losing my base, like my morals, my you know, who I am at a core, but as far as being recognizable in my personality type, completely different. Like if the people I went to high school with, you know, saw me later in life, they'd be like, oh my gosh, how did this person did that become that person?
35:59>> Wow.
36:00>> But you're making those, you know, really subtle, almost imperceptible changes over time that are just huge after you add up years and years and years of doing it.
36:11>> You're saying you never lost the moral compass though, which maybe I'm taking this a step too far, so pull me back if if I am, but that would therefore mean that you never got, even when you're doing the work that involves bad things, you never got lost in actually for a minute snapping in and thinking, "Oh, this is the right thing."
36:32Meaning like you didn't switch teams in a way. You always knew that was wrong.
36:37>> Yeah, I never had the sense like I was going to go native, as they refer to that as. Um I never had the fleeting thought of not being loyal to my country or um being involved in certain things that were like hard break, you know, lines for me like child sex trafficking or whatever. You know, it's never um so those things I didn't lose, but everything else changes. Yeah.
37:05>> So you but that's that's interesting.
37:06You had a moral line with things and yet you're literally the most deniable elite type of spy that the CIA has.
37:15And I say this because every this is this is not a CIA thing. This is literally any big name agency around the world, there are horrible things that they have to facilitate sometimes and then includes that stuff.
37:30>> Yeah.
37:30>> You know, and I and I it that stuff makes me sick and I'm very glad I don't have a job where I got to make those types of decisions, but did you run scenarios with yourself where you might run into something like that and prepare yourself for the fact that you might have to let that happen?
37:45>> Yes. And there were times where I was in the room when things were happening that I wanted to stop. You know, that who I really was on the inside is saying like, you know, you need to to hero stop this scenario from happening to somebody and you can't.
38:01Um >> What's a scenario like that?
38:02>> So fast forwarding to working with one of the Mexican drug trafficking organizations, cartels. Um I was out partying with some of these people and I get taken back to one of their warehouses and we're going to have like party more after it, but it wasn't that. It was a setup. Um there was something happening there that was extremely violent. Uh Um, and there was a child child involved in it.
38:28And it was they wanted to see how I would react.
38:32Um, and you could tell because as I'm coming in to seeing this this horrific scene, they're all just staring at my face. And you know that's what this is.
38:43>> Yeah, as soon as as soon as I saw that we weren't going back there to, you know, polish off a few last beers before the the night was over, I knew it was it was a test.
38:54>> How would you mentally prepare yourself for that?
38:57>> You got to compartmentalize, you know, a lot of things. And in that scenario, the most important thing is not doing what they're hoping that you're going to do, right? And um, you really have to just focus as much as possible.
39:18>> This comes back to your core though, as as you self-described it, and I believe you, a very empathetic individual.
39:27>> Mhm.
39:27>> We all know the weakest spots for for having our empathy overtake us involve vulnerable people.
39:34>> Right. Not the least of which is kids.
39:35>> Yeah.
39:36>> So, you have to override your most deep internal trait in the most intense worst scenario possible.
39:47>> Right.
39:47>> And I would imagine this isn't 2 minutes.
39:50>> No, no, it's maybe I don't know, it felt like years, but maybe 10 minutes long.
39:59That I was exposed to it.
40:01>> And you don't want to say what it was.
40:03>> I know, I mean, you might want to edit it out later.
40:06I'll say it, but you know, if you want to edit it out later. Um, they were taking a caterpillar to this kid's face.
40:13They're the person's father had messed up with something, and they were punishing the the father of his child.
40:26Yeah, like I was saying uh there's big boy rules, you know, for for some of this stuff.
40:32You know, there's a line I think about a lot.
40:37When I was I've I've had Bustamante in here a bunch of times.
40:41And the second time we ever recorded, episode 107, there was like we're we're having some whiskey that night, like really having fun, going at it, but some of it got serious.
40:50And I was really pressing him on this scenario of like good versus bad, you know, say like constitutionalism over the alternative and stuff like that.
41:02>> Okay.
41:02>> And it was a crazy moment because in this job, one of the reasons I love to do it and will only do it in person is cuz I could really feel the other person. Just like you feel that empathy kind of thing, that's my gene, too.
41:14And there's this thing that happens very rarely where I quite literally see someone's soul leave their body. And just they're on they like they're they're they're on a pre-programmed like thing comes out. And this happened with him, where where he said it, you know, I mentioned something about like a terrorist and he said, "You mentioned that terrorist, I've lived that."
41:36You've not lived that. And I was just like, "Whoa."
41:39And he starts going in this speech. He's like, "I've seen that [ __ ] you know, where someone's baby gets microwaved."
41:45Or, you know, and he names all these awful things.
41:48>> Yeah.
41:48>> And what he was saying is you can't get rid of that hard drive.
41:52It's it's baked in. There's no like, you know, sitting in a therapist's office for 10 years, you know, 5 years after this happens and trying to delete it, you know, there's no control-alt-delete. It's there. So, when you like when you just described that to me, I could see you seeing that again.
42:08>> Yeah.
42:09It never it's never going to go away.
42:10>> Does that Does that haunt Is that the kind of thing that like haunt your dreams?
42:15>> You know, the the things that that bother me or or where I thought I could have done more or been better or you know, it's not maybe the stereotypical things. You know, I think about stuff like that that we just talked about from from time to time, but more consistently I think I still go over scenarios in my head where um I could have delivered that line a little bit better when I was working or maybe I could have worked a little bit harder and not had to use somebody else in that, you know, in a in a negative way. Uh >> Sure.
42:50>> Yeah.
42:51>> Now, they're what during this 10 minutes or whatever that this hell is going on, they're watching for your reaction.
42:57They're watching to make sure that you just stand there stoically.
43:01You know, nothing.
43:02>> Yeah, they want to see a very sociopathic response.
43:04>> Right.
43:05>> You know.
43:05>> Is there any scenario where they tell you you got to join in?
43:09>> Not for me it wasn't, thank god.
43:11>> But there were other people in there they did that with.
43:13>> Yeah.
43:14>> And they all did it.
43:16>> Uh no. No, most of them were just watching. Yeah.
43:19>> No, I'm saying the people that were asked to do it though did it.
43:21>> Yeah.
43:22Yeah.
43:25>> Wow.
43:25>> They didn't ask me, but that's >> Was there ever another type of situation, not necessarily the same thing, but where you were told you got to do something and you did?
43:35>> Yeah, but more in like a um not to that level at all.
43:40Um but I was always ready with you know, what I would say like to not have to cross a line like that, you know, like that's another another opposite to this, you know, another side of this coin is when I said like you don't want to build a perfect person, you also don't want to build like a perfectly bad person either. You know, there are plenty of people in that world that have lines that they don't want to cross and you're allowed to have one, too, You know, when you build your cover. And so um Luckily, I was just never asked to do something like that.
44:13>> But if they So, you were prepared you you were responding in an associate pathic manner in character correctly. Painful as that was, you were able to pull that off. But you're saying you were prepared for if they handed you the carrot peeler or for you being able to get out of it without them sensing a problem.
44:31>> Yeah.
44:32>> How would you have gotten out of that?
44:35>> Um So my approach would have been that I'm not here to be the carrot peeler guy.
44:43You know, I'm here to move the money.
44:44Like if that's not enough, and you know, you need me to be involved in this [ __ ] then, you know, just call somebody else.
44:52But I don't see what this has to do with me handling your money.
44:56And I also am kind of wondering what your leadership is going to think that you're potentially compromising this, you know, relationship with me cuz I'm about to bounce. I don't want to be a part of this [ __ ] >> There you go. Turning it around to something more important. Okay, that makes sense. I might buy that, too.
45:13That's a pretty good one.
45:15Good for you. I guess like being able to pull that See, that's why I could just never do what you guys did.
45:23Like my I can't override that.
45:28>> Yeah. I'd be made very quickly.
45:30Yeah.
45:31>> All right. So, the 3 and 1/2 years though that we were talking about in the biker gang you're doing all this different [ __ ] How I mean, you mentioned the relationship with Teeth at the beginning. He was just kind of a crazy person like kind of your way in. But how deep of close relationships did you make with other guys during that time?
45:50>> Amazingly deep relationships. You know, like I'd watch some guys' kids, you know, while they're at work, you know, babysit for them. Um Yeah.
46:00Yeah. You want to get as close to people in that way as possible.
46:03Right? Because, you know, I mentioned how it humanizes them. You want to humanize yourself to people as well, right? Like Um and what it helped me do was I ended up with a lot of people in that world that wanted to protect me.
46:20You know, look out for me. Um like in a big brotherly kind of way or or things like that. And it kept me from a lot of dangerous situations. People would step in and and take it for me, right? Like bar fights, for example.
46:33>> Wow.
46:34>> Yeah. So if they think you're like an [ __ ] that doesn't give a [ __ ] about them, they're very less likely to do that for you, right?
46:44So that uh humanizing goes both ways.
46:50>> Any of the guy I mean, we're going to get to how you end up having to leave all this [ __ ] which is many, many years from now.
46:57But any of the guys that you were in with at that time do they know who you are now?
47:07>> No.
47:09>> And they wouldn't recognize you right now on camera?
47:12>> It's not likely.
47:14>> Why do you say it's not likely?
47:16>> Um I don't look the same as I did back then. I mean some people might figure it out, but a lot of those people are either dead or in prison, you know, at this time, too.
47:26But some of them might recognize me.
47:29I think if they did, it's a it's an interesting way to see me, right? Like cuz I never I never hurt their organization, you know, I didn't testify. Nobody's in prison because of me. I'm sure they were confused as to what was going on with me after I left, but >> Okay.
47:47How did you Well, actually, before I get to you leaving there over these 3 and 1/2 years, you are not comfortable, obviously saying specific countries and things like that, right?
47:59>> I couldn't, no.
48:00>> You couldn't. That's classified. Okay.
48:02So, without doing that you mentioned you're getting access to a lot of things internationally cuz it's an international organization.
48:08>> Mhm.
48:09>> What >> I'm right up against the line of stuff you can talk about, so I'm just trying to pick my words here. What types of things were you able to accomplish for the actual non-CIA mission set during this time period that you were able to access through these guys?
48:33>> So, the the money stuff, you know, like moving money overseas and then also like the weapons buying stuff is tangentially connected to that world, so that opened up some doors.
48:45Um but mostly it's just the cover to travel, just the reason to be there. And then if somebody asks like who is this guy, we're going to look into them. If you're a made guy in a transnational organized crime group, that's that's pretty good bonafides for you know, the feedback.
49:03>> How does that work? Were you like do they have that like the mob where you're made? Is that a term?
49:08>> Yeah, so in the in the motorcycle community, you go to hang around, you have prospects where you're trying to join and you become a full patch. That's what they call a full patch member.
49:18>> Okay. Is there like a ceremony?
49:20>> Uh yeah, you get your patches and each club kind of does it differently and they used to do it really interesting back in the '60s and stuff, but >> What do you mean interesting in the '60s?
49:28>> Uh like beating the crap out of you, making you fight for your patch, pouring motor oil and nice alcohol all over you, you know, you're an 81 here or something.
49:36>> And they softened up over the years?
49:38>> Uh depends on what uh club and what chapter, you know, the each of the the clubs are broken down into chapters and they all kind of have their own personality, but some are pretty >> Imagine you're like a you're like a [ __ ] dentist by day. Like, all right, Timmy, your teeth look great. You go to the [ __ ] biker gang at night, you're getting pissed on in motor oil.
49:56>> Yeah.
49:58Yeah, there's a good book um with uh Billy Queen. He was an ATF agent that was a Green Beret in Vietnam. It's called Under and Alone. And he went in to uh it was the Mongols Motorcycle Club that he had uh infiltrated. Um they talk about a lot of stuff in the book about that he had to go through getting his patch.
50:17>> Were you when when you started this relationship at the beginning, when you first start getting in there, as you already said, there's no like turn off time where you're Matt or whatever. But when when you're at home, did you read any books or any material that could help you do your job with them more?
50:34>> Yeah, so it's funny you asked me this because I've gotten this question several times recently, and people always assume man, you would just want to turn off from it.
50:46But it wasn't like that for me. Like I would read books about it. I would still like stay connected to the topic. Um I was always thinking about it.
50:55There wasn't a lot of you know, let's just go think about rainbows and butterflies for a little while moments.
51:02>> So, you're you're accomplishing some of these things with money laundering or or weapons dealing. When when when you say you'd have access to weapons dealing, is that because the gang would be purchasing weapons from groups that you would also want to get some weapons from? Or am I >> Close. It's usually So, if you think of like several hops of you know, like tiers of how you know people in your circles, they would usually know somebody that either knew somebody or that person knew somebody that was close to what I was looking for, but it would usually take a couple hops. But it's hard to you know, remake that introduction
51:45level. Like that's the key. That first guy that everybody's known for 20 years telling the first contact that I'm legit, that's the the domino that starts everything. Instead of me just coming to the end and saying like, "Hey, you don't know who I am. You know, would you like to give me some classified technology, please?"
52:03>> But you would have to get away from like, I'm going to pick a random country. Let's say you're in Belgium with these guys and you're going to you're like, "Ooh, I can get through them to this other guy to this other guy who sells these weapons." You'd have to get away from them in a different capacity and not be, you know, biker mad anymore.
52:19>> Right. So, I wouldn't travel with them.
52:21I'd just use them as a vouch.
52:23>> Oh.
52:24>> Yeah. Like you can call Dave back there.
52:26You can ask him about me. Or Dave, "Hey, I'm going to be traveling. I need to know somebody in the city. You know, can you give me somebody who knows their way around the city?"
52:34>> And they would never ask you why you're traveling?
52:36>> You don't ask a lot of questions in that >> biker guys?
52:39>> Well, I mean, so that's one of the great that's one of the beautiful things about it is you don't sit around talking about crimes with each other in that world either, right? And they know that phones can be listened to, right? So, they're not going to say like, "Yeah, what kind of shady [ __ ] are you going to be doing once I make this introduction?" You know, you don't talk about stuff like that. So, that's a deterrent for them asking.
53:02>> Did you ever get picked up or arrested or anything like that during this time?
53:06>> I was arrested once. Yeah.
53:10>> What happened?
53:10>> So, the charge was aggravated assault.
53:15Um >> I didn't do it.
53:18>> No, I did it. I definitely did it. Um >> That was on the list of can do's.
53:23>> Yeah. Yeah, so I got rolled up in a group um that had been involved in a violent encounter charged with aggravated assault.
53:32>> What what's the am I allowed to ask like the nature of that violent encounter?
53:35Are you like fighting another biker gang in a bar or >> Yeah, so that happened once. Um well, that happened a lot of times. But, um, one time that was really interesting that that was very eye-opening for me about the humanity of of these people was I'm sitting in a bar with four guys from the club that I'm in.
53:56And the bar is structured such that the front parking lot you can have cars, but to get to the back it's a very narrow thing so you can only ride a motorcycle around back.
54:06And this is a bar that's like not on Google Maps, you know, there's no cameras in here.
54:11And we're sitting there and then all of a sudden you just hear like these loud noises like these bikes coming.
54:17And it's getting like it'll it'll vibrate if you have enough like bikes coming by a place.
54:22And we're sitting on the back porch and all of a sudden we see the other club like boom boom boom boom like coming into the back. There was probably 40 40 people.
54:33And the guy I'm sitting right next to who was an OG in that world like the first thing he did is he reached inside his cut, snapped open where he had his his pistol inside the cut. And then everybody didn't say anything. They just looked at each other and like uh here we go.
54:51>> Are you armed, too?
54:52>> Yeah.
54:53>> Okay.
54:56What what what is What mo- like some of these guys if they're dentists, lawyers, and stuff like that, like what motivates them to be a part of something like this?
55:05>> Yeah, I think a lot of people are drawn to the brotherhood, the camaraderie of it. Um >> for one, a lot of people want the status, you know, they want to get treated like a rockstar.
55:15You know, you know, they want people to fear them or respect them or or want them and um sometimes it's drugs, you know.
55:24It's a good life to be in if you want free drugs all the time, right? So, a lot of different motivations. It was really key for me to identify those motivations in the people I was around the whole time.
55:36>> Play to them.
55:37>> Right.
55:38>> How did it come about like leaving the gang? You just say like, "Ah, I'm moving on, fellas."
55:43>> Yeah, so it was the the arrest that I'm talking about.
55:46>> Mhm.
55:47>> And so, I essentially, you know, told them that during my incarceration from at my arrest initially that I was approached by the feds for information, and I thought that, you know, I was going to have a long um trial, you know, like a long process in delaying the trial on everything that I thought it was a hazard for me because they were pressing me for information, and then I wanted to step away during that time.
56:14>> You weren't worried about being whacked over this?
56:17>> Mhm.
56:18No, not at the time. I mean, it's not like it used to be. Like, if you don't want to be there, you don't have to be there. It's not like a keeping you for life or else >> Right, it's a little different than the mob.
56:28>> Yeah, and I I basically, you know, kind of wussed out to them and said, you know, I'm getting so much pressure from law enforcement that like I just don't I don't want to keep doing it. My heart's not in it anymore.
56:41>> And they just accepted that?
56:43>> Yeah.
56:44>> Wow.
56:45So, you were actually like >> everything back, right? Like, everything that had the logo on it and stuff like that and told me to keep my mouth shut about them, you know.
56:54>> It's like turning your badge in.
56:56>> Yeah. Yeah, kind of.
56:57>> Wow.
56:59So, you were actually incarcerated.
57:01Like, you were in jail >> Just in jail, yeah. I didn't get a prison >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
57:05>> Yeah.
57:05>> So, you had to take care of it?
57:06>> No, um so, the they let me out on bail, and they're like, let's just go through the regular lawyer process here, like, to not to not yank this. And so, it was a year and a half that I was like pending on I was I was out, right? Like, doing whatever, but we let it go, and they ended up dropping it. But, >> did your corporate job find out about this?
57:32>> Nope.
57:33>> How did you keep that from them?
57:34>> I just didn't bring it up.
57:38>> I got a hard stop at 3:00. Got to meet with my lawyer. Don't ask any questions.
57:43>> Yeah.
57:43>> Okay, so you're still doing you're still getting access to some places around the world and things like that.
57:48>> Yeah, it's just a little speed bump. I got right back to it after that.
57:51And and if anything it like added to the credibility for me.
57:55>> Did you have any contact with your mentor during this time? Like is he involved with you in any way?
58:01>> Uh not at this point, no.
58:03>> No.
58:03>> Was he ever involved with you again?
58:05>> No.
58:07>> Do you talk with him today?
58:08>> Nope.
58:10>> You've never seen him again?
58:11>> Not since It's been years, yeah.
58:15The first one you're talking about the first guy.
58:16>> Yeah, the guy in the mansion.
58:18>> yeah. But the guy that um was my boss after that, who was with me for almost the entire time, he's like like a father to me. We talk almost all the time.
58:27>> What does a boss look like in that role?
58:28You mentioned earlier there's classified ways you guys are able to communicate and everything.
58:34I would imagine some of that is actually vocal, but you know, not on your [ __ ] iPhone or something. Like what you're meeting with them in person sometimes discreetly? That's most of it.
58:44>> happen, yeah.
58:46>> And so you're close with him today?
58:48>> Very close.
58:49>> And what type without revealing classified stuff, like is this someone who sits at a desk at Langley?
58:57Or is this another off-books kind of a guy?
59:01>> Um I would say it's a hybrid. Like he sat at a different um location, but it's it's a government, you know, place. It's not as uh well known to be affiliated, but yeah.
59:11>> Do you guys have safe houses?
59:13>> Yeah.
59:14>> It I would imagine all across America that you have access to it anytime.
59:19>> Yeah, I had I had one when I was doing this.
59:23>> How off the beaten path was it?
59:25>> Um if I was going straight from where I was at, it's probably 40 minutes outside of where I was working, straight there.
59:33>> And you knew every possible way to get there to try to evade detection.
59:37>> Yeah, but it it was, you know, structured in a way it wasn't so safe house would be a bad term, more like a cover house, right? Like >> Okay.
59:45>> So, if they wanted to show up, it would look real. It wasn't like this empty, you know, thing you see in the movies, right? Like there's pictures that are backstopped. There's It looks like a real life.
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60:03And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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