0:01But >> do you guys believe in demons?
0:03>> Yeah.
0:03>> Oh, yeah.
0:03>> You do? What do you think a demon is?
0:08>> A dark spirit?
0:09>> Yeah. Spirits. The Bible. The Bible says that they um you know they can be attached to you.
0:14>> And so um it's energy. I like we're going to get into theoretics here, but um I everything's energy, right? And energy isn't lost. It's just transferred. Energy doesn't disappear.
0:24Um, and there's a theoretical physicist in the show who's at Oxford, and I feel like he's the most brilliant man I've ever sat with.
0:32>> What's his name?
0:33>> Uh, Ard Louie.
0:34>> Okay.
0:35>> And, um, most of his stuff didn't make the show because I just we it was six and a half hours at that point. And but he says this brilliant line, you know, he goes, "Everything in your body outside of hydrogen and helium is stardust." Like, we're cooked up in the furnace of stars.
0:50and and so he talks about energy transfers and it'll it'll end up going somewhere um all this material but if everything's energy why can't there be bad there there's bad energy there's good energy you know if you believe in the biblical structure of power um like and so we had a really interesting moment with Victor Marx um a brilliant friend of ours and he's he's on the front lines of of um the battle with CS Sam in the US, which is child sexual abuse material.
1:23>> Is that the That's not the dude who can flip the guns around.
1:26>> Yeah, he did it to Nathan.
1:28>> He did it to me. Bro, that guy's a gangster.
1:30>> He's a beast. If you ever want to talk with him, I'll I'll get >> I would love to talk with that guy.
1:34You've seen that video, right, Dave?
1:35Where the guy just stands there?
1:37>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:37>> Yeah. Let us know. We'll we'll plug you into his group.
1:39>> Oh, yeah. He's holy [ __ ] But he he prayed over both Chris and I and and he's like, "Hey, I don't want to give too much into the get too much into the weeds because it was a gnarly story."
1:48But um he's like, "I'm gonna pray and I'm like I'm going to call out if you have any demons." And I was like kind of nah, it's not, you know, it isn't what it isn't much. But like as soon as he started praying, my veins would pulse up and down and I could I was watching him just like bubbles moving through my veins and then my eyelashes my eyebrows started twitching so fast and uh the moment he finished that prayer my everything went black like super calm >> and uh and he's like okay everything is going to change after this. And sure enough, like full systems of my life just started collapsing. Like people in
2:26it, people turning on me. Like it was crazy. Um, and I'll leave it at that, but like I had like there I believe I had five demons attached to me.
2:36>> Five. Oh, you counted them.
2:37>> Yeah. Oh, it was very specific. His prayer is very specific.
2:41>> Interesting.
2:41>> And it's about letting go. So, you know, um he's like, "Say what comes to mind."
2:47And I was always like in the beginning battling it, you know, because I'm like, "Ah, no, that's not it. That's not it."
2:51And then as soon as I started talking, he would ask me more questions and it just started going. And he's like, I've had people lunge at me and try to kill me when I'm praying this prayer.
3:00>> Not a good idea.
3:01>> Yeah. What do you What do you think, Chris?
3:03>> Oh, >> demon demons. Like, would you agree with that type of explanation or do you have a little bit of a different interpretation?
3:09>> I I think uh I'm going to go one one level deeper. I do think that like and um and I'm just say this. I was going to resist saying it, but like when two people have sex and their bodies become one, that concept of of of demons, like you you pick up that that energy when you're with a person. Um I wish that wasn't necessarily true, but it is. I believe.
3:35>> Wait, every time?
3:37>> Well, if I So [laughter] wait, so so >> I think it's one person. I was going to say if I have sex with like a nice girl, I mean, I'm not going to like suddenly start speaking in tongues or some [ __ ] right?
3:48>> I I mean, I don't know. You'll have to let me know. I mean, I don't [laughter] >> Maybe >> that's Kenneth Copeland's daughter.
3:52Maybe I ain't touching that with people, but >> uh it's it's you when you're I mean, it's when two bodies become become one, right? In that sense, right? And it's something that's necessarily like it says designed for marriage that that you can you can pick that kind of stuff up.
4:10So, like I I uh I went through this exercise that a guy that's mentoring Nathan and I I'm just being super vulnerable here, man. Like he was like, "Go through every woman you've ever slept with in your head." Yeah. And ask God to remove like uh spirit, soul, body, those those three levels. And there's biblical references for for that. Um, >> the ones that are bad or just all of them?
4:39>> All of them.
4:41All of them.
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5:17>> Yeah. To to to remove that, right?
5:20Because you're there's still an attachment that's there, >> whether that's good or bad.
5:25>> Okay. So, you're not defining it as good or bad.
5:27>> No, I'm just saying like whatever that is, right? But there's there's an attachment that's there. But oftentimes like all of us have all of us have bad energy within us. We're not perfect, right?
5:38>> Yeah.
5:38>> So, so you do pick up bad with just about anything, right?
5:42>> Yeah. What what I was tracking when you were explaining this, Nate, is like you're using the term energy >> legit. And I'm thinking also vibes. And I actually kind of like what you're saying. I didn't have the experience like you did or anything. But >> rather than you know what you see in the movie with some gargoyle infesting inside of someone's soul and being sucked out. It's not that. It's like >> if there are bad intentions around you >> whatever that is where someone's giving in to what from the simplest [ __ ] to the more serious the most serious type stuff >> then that energy can infect you if you
6:21let it in your life. And that in and of itself is like a demonic.
6:25>> Yeah. So like a good I've also believe I believe in angels too. Like there when I was when I was on my lifelight back um when I was 16, [snorts] I fully remember this this white being just sitting right above me. It's the only thing I remember those two weeks and and it was on the plane the whole flight back. And it could have been the nurse. I don't I don't know. But it all I remember is this thing never left me the whole flight back. And then as soon as I went into the ambulance on the runway, it went away.
6:58>> There's things in the world that cannot be explained, right? Whether it be something like that during a traumatic event or, >> you know, things lining up in a weird way. Sometimes just like weird patterns and you're like, wait, why is that person why were they at that thing when I'm at that thing? You know, and whatever it is, I I don't know. I'm not God and I I can't define that. But that's my my one real push back with people who are just like a pure atheist.
7:25I'm like, >> how does it all come from nothing? I I just can't. Maybe it's beyond my human ability to comprehend that that could be the case. I don't know. Even if there's 10 quadrillion layers between me and whatever is at the top, I I I have no idea. It could be one, could be 10 quadrillion or whatever the number is.
7:46It's like there's some energy there and there's something that sometimes puts things in your path that you're like you either need to say no to or say yes to or say thank you to. And that might be that example right there. And I don't think that's what I'm saying. I I don't >> the demon and angel thing. Even if it's just more symbolic rather than literal, I'm okay with that. I I I think there's some there's something to it though >> for sure.
8:17>> Have you felt that in your life like just these moment like where you have like this Yeah.
8:21>> Absolutely.
8:23>> And sometimes I blow it too with good situations and I'm like >> damn it like that was >> that was there for me to do something and I didn't do something with that. And then I think about the >> probability like the math in my head of that thing having been in that situation. I'm like that was so low and that happened. And that's the third time that's happened in a week and I blew that.
8:45>> It's like, >> yeah. Yeah. I def I definitely think there's something there. Even if you go like beyond to like dream states, like deja vu and stuff.
8:52>> I mean, come on. Like where's that coming from? That happens to me once a month.
8:56>> Wow.
8:56>> Minimum. Yep.
8:58>> Yep. I'll get one. I've been in this studio before and had people say stuff and in my head I'm saying the words before they say it.
9:06>> You know that. and I see that and I'm like, >> yeah, that's not I don't do mushrooms.
9:11You know what I mean? Like that's not that. So, >> what's going on there? Like I I just I'm I try I'm sure I fail plenty times, but I try to be humble in the face of what I don't know.
9:22>> That's how I live my life. And like I try to live my life and do way more good than bad and try to learn from when I do when I do things that are wrong because >> I'm going to have to answer to something from whatever that is. I I hope that's going to be a very good day for me. You know what I mean?
9:38>> Yeah. Well, there's this I can't man I can't remember who who said this, but it's it's an atheist and it was an atheist and a Christian and they were debating um they're pretty well known.
9:49>> Jordan Peterson >> Sloic >> I can't remember. It's it's but but >> Richard Dawkins and >> it might have been Dawkins but the conclusion was like hey we both put faith in something even if you're atheist you're putting faith in your faith in that in in that idea >> and so we both have faith. Yes. So hey when I die if nothing happens >> what a crappy way to live like Jesus helping people being there for people.
10:17You know I'm being facitious here. It's like I'd much rather have believed in something than nothing. And then, hey, if it's actually if we I wake up in heaven or I wait, you know, or my my energy goes back like I I see it as I'm like we we were just with Blurry Creatures. I don't know if you know that that podcast. [clears throat] >> Rad dude, his name's Luke Rogers. Um, and he's all about the weird things and then he correlates it to scripture. So like Bigfoot, Nephilim, giants, you know, and he has all these really unique like extraterrestrials. He has all these brilliant science scientific minds on
10:52his show. Um, but we were talking about like this idea of energy and okay, if there's a creative energy out there that created everything, our solar system, us, and it created this out of love.
11:09It just wants its energy back. And I fully like this is just this idea and I talked with Ard Louie about this like when I die isn't that just my soul going back.
11:19>> You know what I mean? Like my physical body dies the the matter of my body dissolves and it goes into some other brilliant animal or or plant you know but that energy that sliver just kind of goes back to the creator. And I'm like that's just this visual I have in my mind right now. You know, it was like this energy that's that's outside of our dimensions, but it created this. It breathed, as the Bible story goes, it breathed life into our nostrils, and it just wants that life's going to go back home.
11:48>> Yeah.
11:48>> You know, and in the in the interim, you and I, Julian, can connect in in a deeper realm than just um just, you know, well, now they're seeing like cra like plants talk and everything, you know, communicate. It's like everything's com in in this form of communication, but it's like maybe it's it's that energy in you and energy in me talking to each other.
12:09>> Maybe that maybe it's Chris's energy in him and in me talking to each other that's not even our own energy.
12:14>> When I saw my daughter be born and I just broke down out of sheer amazement and awe. That wasn't me. Like I honestly I was like, "This energy is so much more powerful than anything I've ever >> Something was forcing you. something was letting allowing me >> to experience this overwhelming like from my head to toe you know and sometimes >> but that's not you >> it it is I think it's the energy in me allowing me to feel that is what ultimate love is seeing this pure undefiled like brand new life be born you know I'm a big bow hunter and even taking life like is so powerful for me um that it's like there's just this
13:00energy transfer and shift and um yeah so I don't know why I went down that rabbit hole but I love that idea of I'm going back one day you know and no one knows what that back is but I have faith in that back [laughter] you know >> the point you make about if you were wrong and it and it turned out you know what insert your religious beliefs whatever they are here that's not exactly what it is when it's all said and done if you use the good of what that's supposed to show in your life to put that forward and let's be honest there's also a a beautiful like even selfish aspect to that which is that
13:32when you're doing good and helping people out, you feel great about it. If that's how you lived your life and you live long and you're remembered as someone who left this world better than than the way you found it, then who the hell cares Yeah.
13:42>> what it is afterwards. That's not up to you. You know what I mean? And and and that's also that veers towards kind of how I think about things. It's like, you know, >> I don't I don't know if this is right or that's right or that's right or they're all wrong or they're all a little bit right. I don't know. But your guess is as good as mine. But I do know while there is plenty of gray area in the world, some that makes us more uncomfortable than others, there is an overall objective good and an overall objective not good, if that's what you want to call it. And like I want to lean >> on on the good side of things. So that's
14:15that's that's kind of what's clocking me here. But no, it's that it's that's interesting. I >> golden rule, man.
14:20>> Right.
14:20>> Yeah.
14:21>> Yeah.
14:21>> Well, let's and I love this. I'm going to give you another first. I was waiting for Joe to take this one, but I'm going to give it here. So, look at Joe >> Rogan. See Jesus on the pendulum.
14:31>> So, Jesus is on a pendulum. Like everything's on a pendulum, right? Our our politic, everything swings on a pendulum.
14:37>> So, I I see on this left side of the pendulum, my mom, conservative Christian woman, like believes every letter of the Bible is the literal word of God, even through translations and all that. And it's really hard for me to rationalize that. And then I can swing all the way to the other side of pendulum of the pendulum of Jesus. And who is Jesus?
15:01He's a he's a history a figure in history who had massive implications on society in in the world. He was murdered and that's it.
15:09>> The um um resurrection is faked. You know, Pentecost is is just folklore. you know, the go the the the apostles who died and all those early bishops who died died for a lie or died for a madeup story, but whatever.
15:24>> But his life and his teachings pulled us from barbarism all the way to this day where you and I see each other as equal value and equal life, right? So I see Jesus on those pendulums. Wherever you or this pendulum, wherever you fall in your quote unquote faith or idea of Christ, Christ is going to meet you there. M >> like even if you just think he's a historical figure who taught great lessons in man I want to be the good in the world like you said like you're over here my mom's over here you're on the same pendulum actually and Jesus will meet you there if you look at him and actually just read his teachings
16:01>> and that's what I always encourage people to do is like just study his life like a history book and the stuff you will glean out of that you'll have wherever you end up on that spectrum like that's where Christ will meet you and you will be the good in the world.
16:16>> But right now, it's like if we look at it like that and we look at it like, okay, we're all going in that trajectory and we all want to be we want to better our world. What does that mean? We're going to go back to the socialist con conversation real quick. It means everything's equal. [clears throat] >> Well, if everything's equal, then how do I build my institution on top of this?
16:38You can't.
16:39>> Okay. So, I have to differentiate myself from you, Julian. I have to differentiate different differentiate myself from from Chris. So what does that mean? Well, now I have to find differences.
16:47>> I'm a brand.
16:49>> You're a brand.
16:50>> You're one of 50,000 denominations of Christianity now. It started with one.
16:55And it's because we have to be different. When in reality, Christ is saying we're all one and the same.
17:01[clears throat] >> That's heavy, man.
17:04>> Yeah.
17:04>> Yeah.
17:05Now, you you had said something earlier because I do I do want to get back to Copeland and the full investigation you did, but I've had something in the back of my mind that we got off very early on that was interesting. You [snorts] were making a draw between I want to say it was in the 60s where they were coming up with the code >> of how to declare yourself as church or religion and you just kind of [snorts] tossed in there on the side that you know the CIA was invented in the 40s.
17:34What? Why did you say that? What What was the tie between those two?
17:37>> I got a call maybe >> can't remember now. Time.
17:43>> Several months ago.
17:44>> Several months ago um from an unknown block number and I don't know why I answered this one, but I did. Maybe I was in a good mood. [laughter] I don't know.
17:52>> And I answered this call um and it was a gentleman who goes, "Hey, I've watched a lot of what you're doing. What do you know about the 14-point checklist?"
18:03And so I gave him kind of my history spiel because I had sat down with uh the gentleman that oversaw the nonprofit sector for five years at the IRS. So basically like the leading brain >> at the IRS to oversee >> 1.5 Well, not 1.5 because that's global.
18:17Um almost a trillion dollars in individual donor giving every year. So that's not including government grants.
18:22So this guy is like the brain that understands it all. So I regurgitated to this gentleman on the other line, hey, this is where it started. this is how it has come about. And he goes, okay, why would the US government want to build that box?
18:40And I'm like, well, what do you mean?
18:42And he goes, is Christianity dangerous?
18:44And I said, yeah, true Christianity is super dangerous.
18:48And people ask why. And I go, well, these few thousand people without weapons transformed Rome.
18:56Islam is dangerous. True Islam is dangerous. the Ayatollah. Look what it's done to the Middle East. True religion, whatever you believe is dangerous. Okay?
19:05Well, if religion is dangerous, governments can't control it.
19:10So, the government needs something to control organized religion.
19:15So, they built the box with 14 points that you just need to check off. To get someone to climb into the box, we're going to give you tax exemption. So, you save some money. That box holds everything.
19:30Islam and Christianity is like oil and water. It does not mix.
19:36So we need everything in a box that plays by the same rules. Now we can put that box on the shelf and any politician or any president or any political party that's in power can pull that box off and move it where they need it to go.
19:49And if you step outside of that 14 points, you lose your taxes except status. What do you mean move it where they need to where they need it to go?
19:58[sighs and gasps] >> This is a this is where we call the death rattle in the show. Um it's happened in history before, but when religion and politics combine, usually it's either the political power is losing authority or the the majority religious power is losing authority. And so right now, Christianity is trying to shove its moral compass and its moral authority down through the political structure.
20:26>> You can see it in DC right now, >> 100%.
20:28>> And it's because they've abdigated their moral moral authority from the pulpit.
20:32The church is no longer looking like the church. The pastor doesn't look like a shepherd. They look like a celebrity.
20:36They they have lost their moral authority and their moral high ground.
20:40So they're trying to do it from uh DC.
20:44And this this this happens all throughout history and everywhere. Um and so right now you've got the death rattle going in DC. But if if and basically what that means is reform is coming. It doesn't mean necessarily anything's dying physically. It just means reform to the a system whether that be political or religious is coming. And so reform is coming. You can hear the death rattle clanking around.
21:07And so if I am right or left, I don't care. I want to be able to use that where I need to use it. [clears throat] >> If if true Christ or I want to be able to place it where I need to place it, if that makes sense. And um yeah, we're going to we're going down a fascinating rabbit hole here, which well I just I can't speak to it, but I'm saying, you know, as as Islam grows in the US, >> you know, like I said, it's oil and water. So >> yeah, why why do you say that it's oil and water? because they do believe like Jesus was a prophet.
21:43>> They do believe Jesus was a prophet. I actually have great conversations with Muslims. One of my favorite restaurants in Utah is owned by this great Muslim guy named Mo. Muhammad and >> shout out Mo.
21:52>> Shout out Mo, bro. [laughter] Best rivi in the business. Um, >> wait, are they allowed to make that?
21:59>> Hal. Oh, that's right. Yeah, wrong religion. Sorry. [laughter] >> I love halal food.
22:06>> Uh, no. Uh, he does sell bacon. Can they have bacon? I don't I don't think so.
22:11>> You're looking at me like I don't I don't I don't think so.
22:14>> Okay.
22:15>> Um capitalist capitalistic Muslim right there.
22:17>> Trying to make a bud.
22:18>> Um Mo, you're the man. Um but what I mean by that is like theologically it's oil and water.
22:23>> Um and how can I say this?
22:31Christians are meant to love their enemies.
22:34Um Christianity doesn't. We have to be different is what I'm saying.
22:43>> Okay, that's interesting. So, Christianity, the institution doesn't >> doesn't. Correct.
22:48>> But individual Christians, if they followed the Bible, are supposed to.
22:51>> Correct. That's why I call myself a Christ follower. And I know it's kind of silly, but it's like the term Christian has so much stigma attached to it that I'm like, I'm a Christ follower. Like I >> I believe in Christ. I follow Christ.
23:02>> Okay. Who came up with the name Christian?
23:06>> I don't know. The original >> Jesus never said you're a Christian.
23:09>> Yeah. No, the original um >> the original group of Christians called themselves followers of the way.
23:15>> Yeah.
23:16>> They said I follow the way >> because that's what he called himself.
23:19>> Mhm. Um I don't know. In Christianity when the I mean that's the English term as well. I mean I'm just looking at it like you take Christ and then you throw the in on it, you [laughter] know, like all these other terms. I I I don't know.
23:33>> Yeah. But like how what did they call it when they were in Greece and what's the phonetic laws there with how they do that? I don't know. I'd have to get my boy Nico on the phone. But >> you know that's interesting >> from a government perspective. Think if you have two very contrasting religions like Christianity in and Islam and and that's the thing like I have great conversations with my Muslim friends. Like I walk into um Islamic uh mosques and I'll talk to imams. I think it's fascinating to me.
24:06Most Christians are terrified of those buildings.
24:09>> Terrified.
24:10>> Absolutely terrified of them. Yeah. They they see it as like, oh, you know, the enem is coming to the states and so it could create a massive problem or it already is. Um [snorts] uh but so why you need them both in a box in the same box?
24:26>> Yeah. I think I think a big part of it looking at it from the outside is just some of the cultural things, you know, where you in strict forms of Islam you have women that are completely covered up. It's not it's not western. I I think sometimes you make an equivalence and it's fair to do it between like westernism and Christianity because that is a huge part of what what built the west and so when you see something coming in that in this case is in the form of another religion that is different than those values on that level. Some people have a certain type of reaction to that and and I guess that
25:05I guess that's just culturally how we're wired. Well, cultures, you know, like some cultures don't mix either, you know.
25:13>> Sure.
25:13>> It's it's >> And that's why assimilation, like now we're just getting into geopolitics and >> No, no. Like, like how often do you see a Turk marry an Armenian? I'm sure it happens, but like Yeah.
25:24>> You know what I mean?
25:25>> Yeah. It's it's cultures are are oil and water, too. You know, it's we are a culture that respects women's freedoms, you know, whether you agree with all of them or not. Whether that be uh you know pro-life or pro-choice or whatever, but we America is a culture. Western democracies are cultures of equality.
25:44Basically, >> Islam [snorts] is not a culture of equality. [laughter] >> And so that right there is oil and water.
25:52>> Yeah.
25:53>> And and um yeah, I I don't want to speak too much to the political side, but but so that's what I'm saying is oil and water. And so that's why if you can put dangerous faiths into a box and kneecap them basically, then that box can be moved. It can be weaponized >> and you can use it as a scop, a psychological weapon if if need be.
26:13>> Or you look at, you know, the Johnson amendment and what's going on right now.
26:16>> The Johnson amendment.
26:17>> The Johnson amendment um is an amendment that basically said, hey, if you have tax exempt status, you cannot uh endorse candidates from the pulpit. And then only a small percentage and I can't remember the exact percentage of your revenues can go to fun um fundraising and lobbying.
26:38>> Um and if you do if you give more money than than is allotted or if you endorse your tax exemption could be threatened.
26:45[snorts] >> So that um you could see that as kneecapping, you know, but it's when was it when was it uh established the Johnson amendment? The 70s.
26:56>> What do we got?
26:58Yeah.
26:58>> 54 even4 way back.
27:00>> Yeah. So 1954. So the Johnson amendment >> Trump has sought to repeal the provision.
27:05>> Well, well, he did technically. So the IRS just came out and said, "We will no longer um come after you if you endorse candidates from the pulpit or if you lobby." So religions or churches in particular can now be platforms for political campaigns and technically they can be fundraising arms for politicians.
27:30>> So they've officially weaponized the church whether that be right or left.
27:35This is this is a crazy crazy rabbit hole to go into because it it affects politics where politics gets in my opinion like bastardized and mixed up with religion as well. A a great example is Benjamin Netanyahu. You have to give him a ton of credit for and I I don't like this but you got to you got to see what he did. Like if if if you have >> read books about him, read his own biography which is like [ __ ] 1,200 pages or whatever it is. [laughter] the guy, he's a long-winded dude, but like this guy was openly setting up alliances in the United States with evangelical Christians for decades >> before going over to Israel and taking
28:17power and then pulling back on that thread to funnel money and completely warped political beliefs, if if I may say so myself, where they use the Bible to to try to justify by things that are not justifiable and also completely change what it is. That's why you have someone like Ted Cruz come out and talk about the Bible says we have to respect Israel when the Israel of the Bible is not the country that was created in 1948. That's not that's objectively greatest moment.
28:47>> Yeah. No, I I I could think of a few of those. But, >> you know, I see this and it's particularly jarring and hilarious, like darkly hilarious when you consider the fact that like Benjamin Netanyahu is an atheist. thinks religion's funny. Like even even practicing Jews and stuff, but the minute you need some war, some some you know war whistles to go off, he'll get up there and say tells us that we must bomb Gaza and like he expects to pull back on that thread. So when I see like American churches, whether they're mega church, I don't care what they are, that have like ties to that and are just are getting up
29:30there on a pulpit and saying, "Hey, this is right." Something tells me, you know, I don't care who you were. I I I something tells me Jesus didn't like what people did on October 7th, and something tells me he doesn't like what they're doing in Gaza right now. And I don't make any distinction between the two. And yet politically money seems to funnel back and forth within our own government and other governments that leads religious figures to become political figures who are just talking heads for people who are doing everything that is against what Jesus teaches.
29:59>> Amen brother.
30:01>> Brilliantly said. Yeah. Um, politics and religion run in parallel veins and the veins are crossing right now like I said in the death rattle and they will cling on to any politic and religion will cling on to any power they can.
30:15>> Um, >> and like thankfully we live in a like one good side of technology is is you can learn about this all all this stuff very quickly. Yes. Um, >> and so it's it's >> Yeah, I I'm going to reiterate the Israel of the Old Testament is not the government that is currently in power.
30:33[laughter] That's right.
30:34>> And that goes back to this concept of like actually like picking up the Bible and reading it >> because like I'm not here to say whether Ted Cruz has or he hasn't, but when he referenced what he was taught in preschool about the Bible as his theology, >> like that says that you've got a pretty weak foundation on what the Bible actually says. And you're making some pretty large bets there, Senator Cruz.
30:54you. Well, he's making big bets with money he's has been paid, too. That's the thing. And and it's always tough. It Adam Freeland just did a did a brilliant podcast with Congressman Richie Torres because this is both sides of the aisle with this problem. Mhm.
31:07>> And you know, it's a very strange thing when you watch someone who you know objectively has a brain up there make a facial expression in response to listening to a question where you can see you don't you could have the TV on mute and watch their face and know that in their head right now the thought that's going in there is well I know what I want to say but what can I say? M >> when that when you see that it's over.
31:37>> Yeah.
31:37>> And like Adam did an incredible job. He wasn't even trying to. It just like happened where it was very clear that there were I don't know some lobbying type reasons why Richie Torres could not give what should be the obvious answer and instead gave the Captain idiot answer on certain things. And you have Freedelland, who's also like a Jewish guy, by the way. Like, dude, can't we objectively like agree on something here? The difference between Torres, though, and a Ted Cruz and some of the people we're talking about though is is like I I would argue my expectations for politicians are low. You know what I
32:15mean? My expectations for people who are leading a religious movement trying to follow Christ are high. Unfortunately, people like you are proving that my expectations should be marketkedly lower.
32:28>> Yes. [laughter] Yes. One thing my brother who's brilliant um like big student of the Bible um loves checking Hebrew against Greek against Aramaic against you know the translations like he's he's very brilliant um and spends hours a day doing this. The dude gets up at like 3:30 every day and just studies this.
32:48He's going verse by verse across translations. is incredible >> in the afternoon.
32:52>> Uh no, in the morning. Okay.
32:54>> Um sure.
32:55>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh he we had a great conversation the other day about convictions.
33:00>> And whether you have political convictions or religious convictions, as soon as you and I and I always use this word abdigate, as soon as you abdigate your conviction for the system you're a part of, you're done. And so I've come to the conclusion [snorts] that every single paid pastor in the world abdigates their convictions for the institution >> no matter how much money they take.
33:24>> No matter how much money they take at some point. If you're a full-time pastor. If you're like a bivocational pastor who has a job outside who might take a small stipen from the church that's different because your livelihood is not totally dependent on the system.
33:37>> Okay? But if your livelihood is dependent on the continuation of an institution, you'll eventually abdigate your some part of your convictions to it. And as soon as you ab especially in religion, as soon as you abdigate a little bit of your faith, you're done. You're compromised because you are now um a byproduct of the system. And I think it's similar in politics, right? Like the founding fathers believed that politicians should be servants of the people. They come into that public role, stay for a bit, and then they go back to their farm or their job and continue to work. Yeah. They are servants of the
34:12people. And so my uncle was [snorts] a multi-term congressman. He he led the impeachment trials on Bill Clinton. And like >> he would say the same thing. You go in with good intentions and as soon as you abdigate on your belief or convictions a little bit, you're a byproduct of the system. And then, god forbid, you've been there for 40 years or 50 years, you know, and you're worth 300 million bucks or whatever, like you you have no um authority anymore to speak from the position you are because you're just a byproduct of the system. So, politics and religion eats everybody that hops into it at the moment.
34:48>> Yeah. I I was talking with Allessie, the other guy I was talking about earlier, who used to be the producer in here and now now does the content. I was talking with him earlier because he had listened to your whole Shan Ryan podcast and really enjoyed it by the way and thought you made a lot of amazing points and he's like a really religious guy.
35:06And so one of the things he was saying is he's like >> the one part that I was like I don't know how that could possibly work is similar to what you're saying now which is that if someone's going to be a a full-time pastor they're automatically they're just at some point there's going to be something where you abdicate >> your beliefs for the future or he's like if you're going to be a pastor you have to be available to your congregants. You have to be there not just preaching. You got to be there for people in need. You got to go do house calls and stuff like that. you are filling your life with it.
35:36So, he's like, I don't know how you can't make any money doing that. And I thought about it and I didn't want to agree with him because I'm with you. I'm like, I don't think you should make any money on God. That's just what I believe. But from a from a perspective of if you are actually going to serve your full congregation and you legit don't have time for a part-time job because of that to supplement your income, >> what is the way around that? I don't have an answer. That right there is tradition and culture as well.
36:08>> Nowhere in the Bible does it say you should be a full-time pastor. Give up everything else. Doesn't say it. We've created that role in the institution and now we fall back on it to justify it.
36:21And and it's it's it's really tough to like because most of my formative memories and I used to call them my best memories as a kid, but now I call them my formative memories because they're not really the best memories. It's it's it's the bias that I was raised in, but came from the institution, if that makes sense. And so, hey, why do we need that fulltime youth pastor? Well, because my kids need to be taught the Bible.
36:48Shouldn't I be teaching my child the Bible?
36:51>> What if you're not? What if you're not the best person to do that? What if >> then my life is out of order and I need to get in order?
36:59>> And this is something one of our mentors says too. Look at your life, Nathan. And this was the most terrifying. [laughter] >> He's like, "Look at your life, Nathan, and what part of your life is out of biblical order?"
37:10>> And I was like, "Oh crap." [laughter] >> Like there's a lot of it. Yeah. you know, and um and he's like, "Most of your problems come because your life is out of order."
37:20>> Um and when you look at the church, the institution, it's all out of order.
37:26We've just built roles because the institution demanded that role. We built the institution that now needs that role. And so your friend like or your editor like I feel like he's almost to the to he's almost come to understand it but it's still to Christ's point in most of the gospels we've built traditions and call it doctrine.
37:50I am I have everything I need to to understand that book.
37:56>> I've got two eyes that work ear like a mouth that can speak. And we we abdicate our roles so much. Like I abdicate my role for teaching my daughter the scriptures. I abigate I abdicate my role for prayer because I'm tired with her. I abdicate my role to make sure like she's learning what I think she should learn in schools because I don't have time.
38:17>> It's like same thing you Yeah. I don't want to go down too many rabbit holes, but it's like in America, we've built we've cluttered our lives so much that we've forgot making the main thing the main thing, which is family.
38:30>> And so it's >> I agree with that.
38:32>> It's I need to take So that's why we always say our first ministry like when you look at biblical ministry is my family.
38:40Like if I cannot find time to teach my daughter the scriptures and I believe this is my salvation, like Christ is I'm I'm my order is way off.
38:50>> You know what though? And and this does need to be said and I'm not saying your order's not off with that, but I'd love your guys' thoughts on this.
38:58>> You know, 30 years ago, the like I I believe in the American dream. I believe it's still alive. I believe this is best place to live. I I think I think you can go make something of yourself. And I'd like to think, you know, there's plenty of examples out there listening right now of you guys who who can attest to that. That said, I would never argue with the fact that it the deck has been stacked much harder than it used to be. And if we're looking at the post 911 world, but more specifically the post-financial crisis world and the world since the beginning of the 1980s when you can go back and
39:31see that V form on the chart where the middle class gets legislated away.
39:35>> We are now in a position where society has generationally placed all these expectations on people and families to the point that families are being monetized away.
39:49people can't afford >> to have kids. And then the people that do, >> well, guess what? They got to pay the bills and their check hasn't their their their salary hasn't kept up with the inflation that's happened over the past even 10 years to the point that they struggle not only to put food on the table, but how the [ __ ] am I going to put a kid through college or whatever?
40:10And so maybe they haven't if if they're a Christian or something like that or any religion, they haven't fully prioritized the north star of their religion, but through no fault of their own, the world has sent so many challenges their way that that hasn't even been a realistic option. And I know that's like not as like >> the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole I was like, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole was dual income. The need for dual income.
40:34>> Okay. Well, let's go down it >> because that I got a piss. Can I Oh, yeah. Yeah. We We'll be right back. Just tell me next time.
40:39>> Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, [laughter] "Oh, man."
40:44>> On both.
40:45>> All right, we're we're back. Before we get into that, we're going to talk about dual income and something like that. We just got off air and saw we're recording this.
40:56Charlie Kirk just just got shot and it's I don't know, it was an hour ago. So, we're This is coming out probably a couple weeks after we record. So, hopefully there was some sort of good outcome here. But that that did not look good. And like I don't I don't care what you think about what people say or what you agree with or not. There is just something really broken in society that stuff like this happens. You know, everyone right now is fighting over also what happened to that poor girl on that train the other day [snorts] in Charlotte who's just viciously attacked.
41:26And it's just like [sighs] I got the picture outside the studio of Bill the Butcher from Gangs in New York and that's the scene where he's looking at Leonardo DiCaprio and Non Sequer says civilization is crumbling and some I I really am an optimist but sometimes it's hard not to look at that and wonder like man was that movie they were making while September 11th was happening you know really on to something there.
41:47>> Mhm. Yeah, that's the most horrific like I Yeah, I am just disgusted at um [snorts] that and you know I didn't know Charlie or I don't know Charlie personally but that society is just crumbling and it's Yeah.
42:03So my prayers are with Charlie and his family and I know our prayers are um >> because it's just so sad like you have a father you know who's I always say to people who are dissenters against our opinion or whatever is we're just on the opposite sides of the same coin like you and I are actually brothers or sisters or whatever and we don't see we were talking about that freaking sliver in you and in And when we don't see that, when everything is chance, Julian, when life doesn't [ __ ] matter, like I'll go out guns blazing. And that's what we're missing is we're missing hope and we're missing that sliver in you and sliver in
42:47me and sliver in Charlie. Whether I agree with Charlie or not, like he is created for something bigger than just chance. and we take it, you know, just like the train, just like that horrific thing on the train, the train, like when we have no hope, we just have no value in life. And so I think it's ironic that we were talking about the pendulum with Jesus and where you fall on that pendulum because it's like [snorts] when Christ says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Like that's what I believe society is missing right now.
43:17And and you know, that's order.
43:20>> Yeah. It's it's just so sickening to see. That's that's that I just have a pit in my stomach. I I I don't >> Where does this like where like you you mentioned this, right? Like society's crumbling and that's like within our America like and you see all these >> uh yesterday there was the strike in Qar.
43:44>> You know, Qar had just donated uh that that plane to Trump, right?
43:48>> And they're investing a lot of money in the United States. And then and then they got they got struck and then you have all these nations across the world that are fighting each other and then we have all this inner fighting going on within the United States. Like >> where do you think this goes?
44:02>> I mean I'm a YouTuber so I don't know, [laughter] you know.
44:06>> But but you but you say that but you're but you're you're you've dedicated your life and career to like a lot of these issues, right? And and and researching and talking about them and interviewing different people and from different walks of walks of life, right? like, >> you know, >> do you think we end up in a like a civil type war here?
44:26>> Again, I'm I'm an optimist. Are the things that I'll say like, "Oh, I'm cynical about this or that." And and I really am. Yes.
44:35But like I I do like to see the good in people. I I don't I don't think we would end up in something like that. And I'm very careful about bringing that is a big big big term. And part of it is also you can't get caught up in the world you live in. I live in a world where a job of mine is to understand what's happening on the internet. And there's a lot of people who care about that, but there's a lot of people who don't.
45:00>> And I've always talked about this Waw Wa theory. When I was living in my parents house during CO for three and a half years building this thing, you know, I was sociable in the fact that people came through my through the house, but I was I locked myself off from the world >> while I was building this. And so one of the rare rest bites or whatever, if that's a proper use of that term, I would get is when I would pick up guests from the airport on the way home, we'd stop at Waw Wa, you know, and I'd, you know, get them what whatever they wanted before the podcast. And when things were getting weird, [clears throat] I mean,
45:31they were weird the whole time, but, you know, when [ __ ] would be going down online, I would just look watch people in the Waw Wa and I would see the pink-haired girl with three nose rings holding the door for the guy with the with the nom hat.
45:44>> Mhm. And there was no like hm or anything like that. I was like, "Oh, thank you so much." And people went about their life. And I realized I'm like those two people if they were behind keyboards right now, if they are, would probably be dehumanizing each other. But in the real world, >> it's not the keyboard. Sometimes though, we see that come out in like what we just saw. And that's what scares me.
46:06That's where I worry about like would people go in the streets with stuff and and and I don't >> I don't want to see that. And and I think I think I take it really seriously to have a whatever responsibility I have doing what I do to have voices represented across the spectrum of different ideas. Obviously I'm a generalist. I do a lot of different topics, but also to try to not go to extremes with, you know, what regardless of what side it's on with people who have extreme beliefs and that's for someone else to do. You know what I mean? I I I like to think the average person is the average person
46:47and we'll be all right. That's kind of my long-winded answer, but yeah, when you see stuff like that, it's uh I mean that that that's horrific, but that's brilliantly said that goes back to that sliver in each of us, you know, that blue-haired earring, three earrings girl like respects the dignity of this other individual and vice versa.
47:09>> Um, and that's literally what the true church is supposed to be. Yeah, >> it's supposed to be this organic body that moves and moves through these shitty systems that we've built, these vulnerable like greed and ego-driven systems.
47:30And when the church isn't the church, everything else goes to [ __ ] And the church is not the church.
47:38And it's like, that's all I can say to that literally disgusting video. And then the other one of the girl on the train. The church has totally lost its way. And so how can any other system find its way if the literal beacon of light is dark as hell?
47:57>> Well, you you've defined it well today when you separate church from like physical church organizational church or whatever. You're saying the church is supposed to be like, and I'm paraphrasing here, but it's really supposed to get the core of what it is, which is the belief in like Jesus and and God and doing things the right way.
48:18>> I think as annoying as it is to see some of these organizations take advantage of this, and you guys are doing a great job exposing that as you should. If I were looking at it from your perspective as like true Christians who want the right things there you do have to say in the last two or three years whatever it is I I I don't know but >> there's a massive movement publicly and I would say like even to define it like on social media >> of like people >> becoming Christians or becoming spiritual or becoming religion and you know turn into something that's higher than themselves and you know But
48:55sometimes I'll see it and I'm like, h someone feels like a bandwagon jumper.
48:59But a lot of times I see it, I'm like, dude, good for that person. They seem like they seem like they're really into that and they found some peace and there's something in the world. Maybe it was co itself or whatever came with that. I don't know.
49:12>> Something in the world >> maybe moved that in that direction. Do you do you see that too?
49:17>> When that happens, that creates one of the most vulnerable bodies of people.
49:21Um, you maybe you can call it baby Christians, but Nathan, if you want to talk a little bit about like the scriptural references to to that along with like why why Jesus said that was so such a protected >> group. Yeah. Um, you know, Jesus said, "I'd rather have a millstone hung around someone's neck and thrown into the water and kill them, you know, then lead a baby astray or lead a a child astray."
49:49And he was speaking about young Christians.
49:54So when you find faith, you have the utmost joy, which we see all over social media.
50:01>> Where do you go from there?
50:05>> If you walk into Hillsong or one of these mega churches like you're officially about to be fed a false gospel, something that looks nothing like Christ, >> right? So I feel like our role is more important than ever the religion business role because we're here pre I believe we're preaching the gospel. I believe we're preaching who Christ is how we should live our life and that's what this whole wave of young baby Christians needs to hear. Um they need to know that hey read the Bible cover to cover.
50:34>> It's actually not that hard when you read it as a history book because it comes alive.
50:38>> Like start praying, get in prayer alone.
50:41Um those two things are the greatest tools for you to expand your faith and deepen your faith. And like there there was a Stanford study done um there was a mega church out of Chicago, one of the first in the US, 30,000 seats. Um to their hat I tip my hat to leadership at this I think it was 98 [snorts] or late 90s. Um they hired Stanford and their economists to study how their congregants could deepen their faith because congregants were kind of frustrated. It was a conveyor belt. You know, you and this is this is the danger of these systems. These baby Christians come in, sit for six months, give their
51:19money, it's all like fun and games, and then they just stop coming.
51:23>> Yeah.
51:23>> The only reason why they keep their numbers up is because a new person sits in that seat for six months and then leaves. new person sits in that seat and leaves. And so the church was like, "Dang, how can we retain these amazing young believers and how can we deepen their faith?" Stanford does this multi- like in-depth study. I think it was over two years. They come back with two things. Read your Bible alone and pray alone.
51:45>> It's how you deepen your faith.
51:47>> Everything else is just man-made tradition. And so what everybody like I'm just trying to correlate it back to Charlie like you are right there's this huge wave of a lot of pastors are screaming revival but it's like revival to what like to singing more songs >> right >> to giving you more money like unless the person's heart is changed and they live out because it says faith without works is dead and they live out carrying that cross. That's what the world needs more than ever right now. The world needs literally people that are willing to sit with that dude who's so broken that he feels his his only resort is to shoot
52:28Charlie like that dude needs to be like loved on somewhere in his life his eklesia there was no body around him and so he just gave up and he goes this is the last last thing that that career criminal who stabbed that poor girl like that's just that is demonic like >> talk about let's talk about demon humans right now. Like >> that was my thought there.
52:51>> Yeah. Anytime you feel you need to pull a weapon and shoot a guy sitting in the chair, no matter how much you disagree with him, there is something evil there.
53:01>> He looked like a when when you're watching it on the on the footage, it looked like a character like in a Joker movie.
53:08>> Mhm.
53:09>> Like just starts playing with the knife.
53:11She's not doing anything >> and then just >> and it's just Yeah. Yeah, that that that's is impossible to see that stuff and not wonder how far back the fork in the road went wrong cuz guess what? It wasn't yesterday. I mean, him, we know that for a fact, but like >> you know, and and we were just saying off camera, someone who shoots Charlie Kirk like that is obviously someone who doesn't like what he has to say.
53:38>> You want to immortalize someone, do that to them.
53:41>> You want to make what they have to say carry that much more weight. If if you don't like it, do that. I mean that's you it's it's having that it's going to have the opposite effect.
53:49>> Yeah. One one thing that was fascinating Nathan was talking to Shawn Ryan and uh I think you had had a conversation with a former MS13 member >> and this concept of your 10 bad decisions away from murder. Would you mind breaking that down?
54:05>> Oh yeah.
54:06>> Yeah. Yeah, I used to spend a lot of time in Mexico and Central America back in the day and and I I did get a comment wrong um the train name uh that there's a train that runs from the Guatemala border to uh the US border and it's called the Beast >> and um gangs run it um and basically you climb on top. It's a transport train for produce and all that and uh you climb on top and it'll just take you all the way to the border. Um, and certain gangs run certain lines um, and you have to pay your way. And so I interviewed a girl who was trying to get to America and she brought her little cousin along uh, and
54:44didn't tell her female cousin that you're going to be raped because you're you're my payment to get me to the border.
54:49>> Oh my god.
54:50>> And uh, and so I would go to the there was a convent next to one of the stops and so this convent would take anybody in, gang member, traveler, whoever. they would just love on anybody that walked through that door. And um so I did a bunch of interviews and then I got to this gang member and uh he was young. I can't I can't remember. I do I want to pull this footage actually. It's on my LTO tapes from over 20 years ago and I want to find it. Uh because I wasn't even thinking about bringing this up on Sean, but it just came. So we're going to pull this off these analog tapes. Um, and I have my translator next to me cuz
55:25I didn't speak Spanish and this guy's fluent in Spanish. And um, and he's like, "Yeah, I was raised on the streets, was hungry, and MS-13 picked me up. They gave me food." And he goes, "I'll tell you right now, you and he was talking to me, are 10 steps away from murdering someone."
55:41And I was like, "What do you mean?" And he's like, "You're 10 bad decisions in a row away from murdering someone. So you and I aren't that different, actually."
55:49And it like really rocked me. And I started looking at all my actions in life like that, you know, and I always use the analogy of like road rage, you know? I'm driving down the road, [snorts] >> I carry and uh some guy cuts me off and I flip him off and honk. That's like bad decision one. I should just let him go.
56:08>> Bad decision two is I pull up alongside him and tell him to pull over. Bad decision three is both of us get out of our car. He's armed, too. You know, you just see the escalation of ego and pride in all of this. And so I can't help but think like through this gunman like what poor decisions and bad decisions did you make that you felt that was your conclusion?
56:28>> Here's the one thing I would disagree with the MS13 guy on.
56:35He might and maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe this isn't what he meant, but it seems like he's making the leap that like we're not that different cuz we're both capable of that. I think there is a huge difference between recognizing that all human beings, including yourself, are capable of the worst things if you go the wrong way and understanding that there are a lot of choices that happen in most cases along the way to get there. It kind of reminds me of like that old Jordan Peterson thing where he's like, "You could all be a Nazi, you [laughter] know, but >> I haven't heard that before."
57:02>> You know, where he's like, "You have the capability of being one." And he I think psychologically he's on to something there.
57:12The idea that you would actually full-blown become that, you can't know until >> you get the opportunity to do that. Do you make this the A or B decision? Then do you make the next A or B decision?
57:22Are you making the right one or the wrong one? But to be aware of the capability, your capacity to be a monster, you know, >> 100%.
57:29>> Yes. It's real.
57:30>> 100%.
57:31>> Yeah. And so I just look at this guy and I'm like how he looks like a grandpa, you know, when he's like bald white hair. It's like white like you look like a ironically it's Utah, which is just gnarly to think about. Um but yeah, we we we are in charge of our own decisions, you know, but what leads a guy to do that? Like >> I know >> there's a p there's a pastor that um is up in the Pacific Northwest, right? That he he came out on on uh on his last sermon or whatever and he said that uh somebody was trying to put a hit on him because of of what he was speaking up against.
58:06>> Yeah.
58:06>> So I mean this stuff's like running all over.
58:08>> Yeah. So, it's like like I know it's super cliche, but what the world needs right now is Jesus, you know, and we're all >> and we're all supposed to pick up our cross and follow him, which means hey, like >> if we were actually acting like there's 2.3 billion Christians in the world.
58:26>> Christians [clears throat] own 55% of the world's wealth. Like, and we can get into the positive side, I guess, here, but it's like, how are I live in the mecca of Mormonism?
58:39Like, how is there so much hate and so much homelessness and so many problems right in like Utah's backyard, which is, you know, there's supposed to be the light on the hill. They're the temple.
58:51And it's like all the money and resources silo at the top. And I like all I can think when I when I look at that is just people have no hope.
59:01>> Yes.
59:01>> You know, >> that's and that's why I was asking you earlier like what makes someone eventually follow that and the the or or like go to Kenneth Copelan or whatever and you were saying well you know they could start at 12 and it's very hard for people to admit they're wrong. but also the people that maybe don't have that traumatic event I was referring to have happened to them who are just you know 24 years old and going through a tougher time and looking for something they go there and they feel something cuz that day they get caught the right way then it becomes a part of their belief system
59:32and they assume they they overlook >> all the other stuff that could come with that and again that does not make them stupid we are all susceptible to something like that and they could fall for something like Kenneth but that's why it's important like what you guys are doing to point that out with with your documentary. But >> before I get you out of here, I I do want to talk about when you guys actually confronted this because it was it was amazing. Amazing work with Tommy G. First of all, how did you get connected with with with Tommy? What was the I forgot to ask about a guy named Tyler Sherman who
60:04>> come on.
60:05>> Yeah. You know Tyler, he's a legend, right?
60:07>> Everybody knows Tyler. [laughter] >> Tyler calls you off. Hey. Yeah. Would you be interested in uh talking with uh Tommy G? He he does a documentary on you. Okay, I'll let him know right now.
60:16[laughter] >> Yeah, that's literally that good.
60:17>> Yeah, he's that good. Shout out Tyler.
60:19>> Yeah.
60:20>> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
60:27And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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