0:01So, there's a lot of radiation we can get into the radiation contamination story.
0:06Um >> Do you want to take that tangent for a second?
0:08>> Okay.
0:09Okay, yeah. So, I I came upon that little bit of knowledge um when I was cruising the internet trying to understand my mom's family because she doesn't know a lot about She was separated from her family when she was about seven with her sister and her brother and and they were sent off and they didn't know if they were ever going to return and they didn't know the people that they were talking to. And she was like, "Why did this happen to me?" And um you know, when she went back her uh family said, "Well, she said, "Well, why did you guys not tell me what was going on or who these people were?" And
0:40and they said, "Oh, you weren't supposed to remember." And they broke out in tears. And so like there's this there's a mysterious story about my mom uh and her youngest the youngest people in that family about what was going on for them.
0:54Both of her parents working for the federal government Department of Energy uranium plant. Um she gets a uh full ride scholarship to University of Chicago.
1:07Um and she calls them up and says, "Well, I I want to go but I can't go because I can't afford the plane or the books or the food." So, you have to pay for everything.
1:15>> [laughter] >> And they're like, "Oh, right." So, she goes and then she's sort of monitored um in that they're very, you know, a little bit I think a little bit manipulative with her around.
1:27[clears throat] Uh There's a story with her that just sounds like they knew she was coming from this poor family. They knew her parents were exposed to uranium and they were going to study her, I think.
1:40>> But she was sent away to if I'm understanding correctly.
1:43>> going to University of Chicago, which, you know, Oppenheimer >> Uh-huh.
1:48>> I mean, it you know, government contractor for you know, nuclear weapons.
1:52>> Uh-huh.
1:52>> Okay. So, um so she's at University of Chicago. She meets my dad, whatever. My dad's a theoretical physicist, ends up working for Department of Energy. I think this is not you could tell a conspiracy theory story about this. This could all be coincidence. I am halfway in between, and I end up calling it an inspiracy.
2:11>> Inspiracy?
2:11>> Which is which is means that, you know what, you could go in the conspiracy theory direction, but if you take the the redemptive narrative >> Mhm.
2:23>> of becoming inspired by your own strength and your own capacity to to manage all the that goes down in a situation like this, then you can be free.
2:36And so, I don't know that I am making it up about any of it. So, that's sort of why I say, "Look, the disclosure comes from within.
2:45Like, what can I tell that's true about me?" And what's true about me is at least what I talk about in the book is um is that I was watched from first grade on because I was, you know, I was on all the tests and all the areas I was well beyond.
3:07>> Obviously.
3:08>> Right? Well, I don't know if it's obvious.
3:10>> It's very obvious.
3:11>> Okay. [laughter] But >> It's in a second. You tell you got a galaxy brain.
3:14>> Yeah, well, thank you. But see, it's it's probably not mine. It's probably like beamed there from the informational substrate. You see what I'm saying? And so, >> Hey, if you got those gummies, pal?
3:24[laughter] I need a few.
3:27>> So, I think they could tell I was accessing information. Not that I Look at my actually my my head is really small.
3:33Like, if you look at my head, I almost have a pinhead. I I I It's really small. Like, your head is bigger than mine. My brain is tiny. I've seen MRIs of my brain. Like, the the the little folds in my cortex are desperately trying to find some space >> Well, you're maximizing real estate.
3:49>> Yeah, all I have to say is it's not about the brain.
3:51>> Yeah.
3:51>> [laughter] >> It's about the capacity to access this information and and so they were testing me for psychic abilities and for um IQ tests. I took like 30 IQ tests both in the school and outside of the school. Um >> How'd you do?
4:06>> Did okay. [laughter] But >> I got a I got a 700.
4:10>> But the thing is that wasn't the point.
4:11I I ended up memorizing that like I ended up studying the tests, right?
4:17Which is what you do if you're bored and you keep getting the same test over and over again. So I started studying like this is the kind of thing they're interested in. They think intelligence is this.
4:27And and we all know that intelligence is well beyond that.
4:33And so >> This or that? Can you explain that to >> Oh, well so they think intelligence is is um your capacity to learn quickly, to associate, to solve problems, um to use particular vocabulary or vocabulary beyond your age or or your capacity to know in your environment.
4:51These things are all related to intelligence. There's this thing called fluid intelligence called capital G.
4:56>> Mhm.
4:56>> Um which people are always trying to maybe it's working memory, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. People are always trying to pin down what that is.
5:03Um but I think it was Marvin Minsky who wrote this wonderful book about how there's more than a hundred different kinds of intelligence.
5:13So this is just one kind of intelligence that's very analytical and somewhat synthetic, a little bit of putting things together, a lot of taking things apart and understanding them.
5:22And yeah, so I have a lot of that.
5:24But the other kind they're looking at psychic abilities.
5:28>> Mhm.
5:28>> So that's a that's like the right hemisphere intelligence. That's like >> Why do you say that's right hemisphere?
5:33>> Mhm.
5:34I say that I it's like that's it's two reasons. One is there's actual data, but two that it it's it's street cred is right hemisphere for the following reason.
5:44Right hemisphere um tends to be low verbal.
5:50Uh, so people who have strokes on left hemisphere like have a hard time retaining being able to learn to speak again if they're massive strokes. And then when they do learn to speak again, it can be difficult and kind of, um, almost poetic, uh, like emotional poetic, maybe doesn't reflect what's actually going on in the room. A little bit like what non-speakers sometimes, uh, say. A little bit feeling intuitive and beautiful, but not necessarily reflecting the physical reality that's going on right now, kind of thing.
6:24So, that feels kind of psychic.
6:27The The evidence, the scientific evidence is there's this guy, um, um, Morris um, Morris Friedman? Morris Friedman?
6:36Yeah, I think so.
6:37Morris.
6:39>> Not Milton Friedman, the economist.
6:40>> No, no, but I think that's why my brain does a little hiccup there. So, um, he's up at Baycrest. So, if you if you Google Morris Friedman, Baycrest, in Canada, he's like the chief of neurology there or something. Anyway, he did this he noticed that people who had, Yeah, yeah, Morris Friedman. Yeah, so I collaborate with him, but sometimes I forget his name because of Milton Friedman. There's like There's a little >> I do that with people.
7:06>> Yeah, yeah, it's like too close to that one.
7:08>> Yeah.
7:08>> So, um, so he ended up noticing that he thinks that people who have, um, left hemisphere frontal strokes, so he's in the neurology department, he's seen peo- people all the time, are somehow more intuitive, more psychic. So, he does this test where he has them, people with different types of strokes, some right frontal, some left frontal, um, he has them try to with their minds move an arrow on a screen in a particular direction.
7:37Just with their minds, like not with a mouse.
7:40And the ones who can do it well are the ones who have the left frontal.
7:44>> Wait, they can move it? Like without knowing?
7:46>> Above chance. Above chance. Yeah.
7:48Right. And this is why I think sort of Neuralink is is kind of beyond the point. Is that what he's showing is that people who have this area damaged are able to do this. In other words, it suggests that this area around here, left frontal orbital area, is involved in actually reducing our capacity to use our right hemisphere. Because if you see that there's a lot of inhibition across the hemispheres up there. And so, um, it's like a lot of the work of being in waking daily consciousness is shutting out that stuff.
8:21>> Mhm.
8:22>> And so, yes, it exists, these capacities, and we are trained to shut it out because we got to be here, right?
8:31>> Yes. I also like that Who Who wrote the book about the hundred different types of intelligence?
8:36>> Marvin Mi- Look up Marvin I think he it was called Society of Mind.
8:40>> I want to read that.
8:41>> Marvin Minsky. Cuz he talks about musical intelligence, social intelligence. And >> [clears throat] >> I could see Society of Mind. Yeah, there you go. Marvin Minsky. Yeah.
8:49>> That's Okay, so this he wrote this back in 1986, too. That sounds so cool because that's something that drives me nuts. People box intelligence into an A or B, and it's just like, "Hey, can you do this math problem or can't you?" And it's like it That's That's the beauty of this job, by the way. I talk to people from so many different backgrounds, places, fields of work, thought processes, life goal, whatever it might be.
9:13And they are all on different stratospheres. Yeah, one guy may be able to do 10,504 * 4,709 way faster than this guy over here. But like this guy from uh from an intuition perspective of like sitting across from another person can pick up things way faster than that guy then can. It's not like This isn't this like SAT score of life kind of thing. There's many different levels to it. So, like it'd be interesting. I'd love to see how he defines these different say 100 boxes or something like that because it's almost like if you were going to score someone's intelligence, everything is a zero to 10. Of course, every single
9:51variable and like the additive of all of them, I guess is someone's intelligence, if you will.
9:57>> Yeah, or even is it? I mean, so there's a >> Yeah, yeah, >> [laughter] >> exactly. Maybe it maybe it isn't.
10:02>> Yeah, yeah. I mean, I sort of think that the effort to measure intelligence is generally just misguided in the first place because of because we have this What it What it's not doing is looking just like you said. We have this cultural I don't know if it's a bias or what. We have this story that says um that says these things are about intelligence and these things aren't. So, even if you try to say, "Oh, I'm going to be all Marvin Minsky and like be inclusive about all these different kinds of intelligence."
10:35All that ever really fell out of that after decades of people saying, "Yeah, that's probably true. There There's other kinds of intelligence."
10:41is the idea of an EQ, that there's emotional intelligence. That's one of the types of intelligence. Like, okay, we have to talk about that. That's That's People decided that we should start talking about that. And then it's just like, "Oh god, it's just the the the the progress is plodding."
10:56I mean, it's just so slow. It's like, "Okay, so this brilliant guy comes and says there's all these different kinds of intelligence and now maybe we can talk about EQ and that'll take 30 years."
11:06>> [laughter] >> I mean, it's just What? Like Like can we get to the point where we go let's stop talking about intelligence and just say there's many different kinds of people with many different human natures and we need them all.
11:17>> Yes.
11:18>> Like we need Like look at you. I mean, I'm looking at your mind in the way your mind works. I haven't met you before, but it seems to me you have this synthetic You can synthesize things.
11:26You're super intuitive. You have this emotional social thing. And you have this desire to learn that underlies that this sort of this capacity to bring people in and figure out where they are in this jigsaw puzzle, and then move towards some kind of informative perspective-taking conversation. And wow, that's a really powerful skill.
11:46I mean, that's what it That's well, but that's the kind of skill that it takes to be an excellent politician. Right? Or someone I don't want to do that, to be very clear, but okay. Well, no one who's who could be an excellent politician does. But >> That's a great point.
12:00>> [laughter] >> Right?
12:01>> we were going to get along.
12:04>> But anyway, I I I think that they were they were sort of catching on back then, and I'm talking when I was in first grade, what was that? 1976 or something?
12:1675? They were catching on that there were different kinds of intelligences.
12:21I don't [clears throat] know who they were. I was in a public school. My parents were not uh told. My dad, again, was working for Department of Energy, so like I was an easy target. And when I was in seventh grade and explicitly put into a gifted program >> I think they're coming after you right now again. Sorry.
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14:20>> By the time I was in that program, they didn't ask for consent at all.
14:24And uh >> And cuz they didn't have to at the time or >> Well, um I mean they should have. We knew about asking for consent then.
14:33But they didn't.
14:34And uh my parents didn't know I was in that program until I came home and told them.
14:39And um they were doing all sorts of weird stuff.
14:42>> Like what?
14:44>> Like [sighs] um well, there were these weekly meetings with a counselor. I was like this perfect student. I was like there's no reason why I needed to meet with a counselor. I was you know I was teaching the other students math and I was spending my recess coding and you know, this was like in the >> You're like the good little hunting first grader.
15:02>> Yeah, I was the janitor.
15:03>> [laughter] >> Sometimes I just go in the board and solve problems, you know.
15:06>> No, I don't know.
15:07I'm not bragging. I'm just saying like I was bored and so I would do the They would give me these extra things to do and I'd be like, "Okay, great. I don't want to go outside. I'll do coding."
15:16Um >> [laughter] >> Who wants to go outside and get fresh air?
15:19>> [gasps] >> So, um So, anyway, I saw a counselor because they told me I should see a counselor.
15:25Well, the counselor was the counselor for the entire district. It turns out later, I discover.
15:30Um and what happens is every week on Friday, I believe, I go walk down the hall. I have in my mind to the walk with the lockers on the right and the off- the central office on the left, and then we get to this weird part of the building, and I go in this door, and then I to the first door on the right is where I would have my one-on-one sessions. As soon as I close that door, I don't remember anything.
15:53The one-on-one session happens.
15:55I close the door. Now I remember, oh, here I am, but I remember not remembering what was in the room. Like, I'm not saying like I'm 57 and I can't remember what happened when I was in 7th grade. That would be normal. I'm saying I remember not remembering and feeling like that was normal, like that was how that worked.
16:12And then just feeling bad, like dread, both directions of the walk back to class and the walk to the room.
16:17>> Dread?
16:19>> Yeah, it's just like dread, like, oh god, I have to go see this person.
16:23Sometimes I believe it was two people, a man and a woman, and sometimes I believe it was one person. It was a small room.
16:28>> Did you ever discuss this with anyone after the fact?
16:31>> No, because there's a So, this is and [clears throat] I'm starting to get to the point where I have to have some water cuz it this is gets me a little shaky.
16:39>> Take your time.
16:40>> Um yeah.
16:42And it's funny cuz I wrote this book and I talked to people about it and stuff, but it still like brings me to the place.
16:49So, let's see if I can get to a narrative of redemption here, but I'll tell you what happened. That was the contamination part.
16:58Um there's a feeling that you can get if you're in this situation where you're being there's abuse of some kind going on.
17:09>> Mhm.
17:09>> [clears throat] >> Um where you kind of catch on that it's a secret. I mean, certainly, basically having your memory removed makes you catch on that something secret just happened in that room, right?
17:24So, like I'm And the And as a person who, you know, my parents' marriage is kind of a disaster at this point, and in 7th grade, yeah, I mean, actually at that point I was moving out of my house to go live with my friends' family because I was like, this is This is too bad.
17:41>> Um You're called to do that?
17:43>> Yeah, yeah, like they actually called me up after a week and they're like, "Where are you?"
17:47>> [laughter] >> Wow.
17:48>> Because they called They figured I was with my best friend.
17:50>> [snorts] >> Um so, my home life was rough, and I the one place I excelled was school, right? And that was my whole deal. That was my identity.
18:04And so, I wanted sort of the administrators and the teachers to like me, right? Cuz that's what I had going for me. So, like, okay, I guess I'm going to have to try to be on board with the perpetrators. I didn't think about them then.
18:22>> Of course.
18:22>> But like that's the psychology of abuse is like, I have a choice. The You feel like you have, speaking of contrast, you feel like you have a choice. You can be a victim, or you can be a perpetrator.
18:33Why would I want to be a victim? I don't want to be on top of this.
18:35I'm going to be on the side of people who know what they're doing, and I know I should be quiet about this cuz we have some kind of project. I don't know what the project is, right?
18:43>> This sounds Am I wrong to say this sounds very similar to the psychology of >> Stockholm >> sexual abuse victims and stuff like that?
18:51>> and there was some of that going on for me. So, um so, it's like, how am I going to get over this? I'm going to have to take on This is my project, too, is to victimize me, right? I mean, the way I'm saying it now is not the way I thought of it, obviously. At the time I thought I I I wasn't conscious of of almost 99 99% [clears throat] of this I was not conscious of.
19:15So, that was one thing that happened. Um another thing that happened was again every week or every other week we would that people from outside of the school would come. They would be in suits.
19:27This this is what smacks of some weird intelligence community or defense department thing or something.
19:33They're in suits and we go to the nurse's office and we put on these headphones and they call two of us out at a time and they're from this gifted program. This only happened during the year to my memory this only happened during the gifted program year which was seventh grade.
19:49The gifted program was called SOAR which by the way stands for get this students on active research. I mean could you not get more creepy?
19:57>> Come on.
19:58>> Yeah, no.
19:58>> That's what it stands for.
19:59>> the thing that we're doing. No, actually by the >> Well, now after I'm reading all these emails, you know, [laughter] that's apparently how these people think.
20:06>> Yeah, no. Like we'll we'll we'll just say it right out.
20:07>> Yeah, we'll just say it.
20:08>> Island with underage girls.
20:10>> Yeah, somewhere like the old mobsters are reading those emails going, "God, this is up."
20:15>> [laughter] >> Yeah, right.
20:15Yeah.
20:16>> learn from us.
20:16>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:17Seriously.
20:20>> [gasps] >> So, they would have us come in there and we would listen to these tones and they would call them hearing tests.
20:26But again, I you know, I mean my PhD is in psychoacoustics. I know what a hearing test is and looking back I can see this was not a hearing test. In a hearing test the sound goes up and down and you're trying to say, "Oh, I hear that. No, I don't hear that." Right?
20:39>> Yeah.
20:39>> Okay.
20:40That's not it. It was all we would always be able to hear it. It sounded like an old AOL dial-up or a fax machine.
20:47>> So, this is the part you can remember.
20:49>> Yeah.
20:50>> Okay.
20:50>> This is the different room different I can remember what happens in the nurse's office with the hearing tests.
20:54>> Okay.
20:55>> So, every other week they're asking us how we feel when we listen to these sounds.
21:00>> [laughter] >> Yeah.
21:02>> Which is not normal. So, then we go back. The only other thing that I could remember that was very very weird. I mean, the class itself, the SOAR class, was pretty fun. We got to write books or do basically do our own thing and play with psychic Zener cards and stuff, of course, because >> Psychic what?
21:17>> Zener cards. These cards See, also, it was shocking to me when I found out that other people did not know what this was for a long time.
21:24But they're these um cards. They look like playing cards, but there's only five different shapes. Here. Yeah, you can see them up there. There's a circle, a cross, wavy lines, a square, and a star.
21:35And so, um they we would they would give them to us our teacher would give them out. They were just around to play with, right?
21:42And so, we'd like, "Oh, can do you know what the the way you play with them is like, 'Hey, I'm looking at one. Do you know what I'm looking at?'" Right? So, it's you know, you're playing around with telepathy or you could do precognition like, "What card am I going to turn over next?" It was just one of the games that we would cuz we were running wild. We did whatever we wanted.
21:57>> How many kids were in this?
21:59>> Like 10.
22:00>> Any of your friends or people >> very best friend, her father also worked uh with the military. Um >> Oh, this is >> Most of the people in the room had relationships to either government or military.
22:14>> And how what you So, was it first grade when you were first pulled in, you were saying?
22:18>> First grade, I was That's when I started to be tracked and they would give me all these tests and I would get to spend recess teaching other kids and they would pull me out and just give me special privileges, right? By seventh grade, they explicitly said, "You're >> SOAR.
22:33>> You're in You're in SOAR." Now, the other thing that rhymes with GATE, which came later, uh gifted and talented education.
22:40>> Mhm.
22:41>> Um There many things rhyme with GATE. So, I think this is a predecessor of GATE.
22:47But, anyway, um they would give us this weird drink. It was like pink for us.
22:54And um um You made a movement with your finger.
23:00Does that mean you were thinking about like fluoride? Because they would tell us it was fluoride.
23:05>> No, I was not, but that's funny.
23:07>> Okay. [laughter] >> Cuz I literally did that with my teeth.
23:10>> Yeah. Okay, sorry.
23:11>> Full telepathy.
23:12>> When I talk about this stuff, it's a little telepathy and it's a little bit like hypervigilance.
23:15>> Yeah.
23:16>> Right. When when did you realize you had a photographic memory?
23:20I don't Do I have a photographic memory?
23:21I think I have a more of an auditory photo Like I remember very much what people say. Do you have that?
23:26>> Yeah, I have an audio-visual photographic memory.
23:28>> Yeah, a little bit of the photographic in the sense when I used to study I if I could put everything I would boil everything down to one card and then I would memorize the card and then I would know where it was on the card, you know?
23:39So I guess a little bit of that.
23:41>> yeah.
23:41>> But the auditory, like if someone says, "No, I never said that." I'll be like, "No."
23:45>> You did at 5:31 on Tues- Well, that I feel like that's a, you know, you have two X chromosomes. That's part of the gift, you know what I mean?
23:52>> Is that?
23:52>> Yeah, you guys remember things.
23:54>> Yeah, that's true. You guys don't.
23:56>> It's like >> [laughter] >> I mean, I do, but man, there's some really exact things. I'm like, "I There's no way I said that." Well, >> Yeah. No, turns out >> I'm just saying.
24:07>> Also the thing with the I actually did a study when I was a postdoc because all of my uh women friends who were cognitive neuroscientists with me, we all noticed that our male partners could not find Like they'd always be like they go to the refrigerator like, "Do we have any ketchup?" We'd be like, >> It's right there.
24:27>> [laughter] >> It's there. So we had this theory that they can't see they can't see beyond something occluded. So like what occluded means is like is there a glass behind this grapefruit? Like we had this theory that guys just don't look beyond the first thing.
24:40So we tested it in this room. We had men and women uh line up outside of this closet and we had hidden a bunch of things and we said, "We're going to time you in finding these things." And some things were hid behind others and some things were out in the open. And we saw no difference.
24:54>> Okay, I was going to say this sounds like anti-male defamation to me.
24:58>> It does.
24:58>> At first.
24:59>> Yeah.
25:00>> You did okay though. It was a good finish.
25:01>> Thanks.
25:02>> [laughter] >> So, what we what we figured out is that what they're doing is they're just outsourcing it to the person the location of stuff in the fridge to the person who actually put it away.
25:15>> Oh.
25:16>> What we figured out is like usually the woman goes shopping still. Like that's a thing. I don't know my husband and I do it equally generally, but I'm usually putting things away cuz I like them in certain places.
25:27Because I like them in certain places, I know where they are. That's right.
25:30>> So, I think it's just that.
25:33What were we talking about? Oh, yeah.
25:35So, anyway, the pink drink.
25:36>> Yes.
25:37>> I don't know what was in that.
25:38>> It was good. I didn't even have to get her back on it. [laughter] >> It was it was viscous. It's thick. It was like that it was chalky.
25:44>> Was it good?
25:45>> Someone recently when I talked about this on a podcast said it Oh, you mean like contrast that you would take? No, I spit it out. I I tell myself I spit it out and I don't know if that's a narrative of redemption.
25:57Because I consciously and analytically I wouldn't have swallowed it if they told me it was fluoride because my dad had an obsessive-compulsive disorder about teeth and he had an obsessive-compulsive disorder around not swallowing toothpaste because of fluoride. So, he had told me don't swallow fluoride and so I want to think that I wouldn't have swallowed it.
26:18>> Do you remember how it tasted?
26:20>> remember how it tasted.
26:21>> Yeah.
26:22What did it taste like?
26:23>> You know, like flavored syrup mixed with chalk. I mean, it's like bubble gummy.
26:28>> Yeah, well, that would be I remember that like there was like a year when I was little where they're like make sure you use your fluoride rinse. That's what it was.
26:36>> Yeah, except that wasn't chalky. So, the fluoride rinse that that that's another thing is So, this I don't know why they would want you to swallow it if it's fluoride. That doesn't make sense unless they're trying to poison you, right? I don't think it's fluoride. Now, they also gave us these tablets that were apparently fluoride, but they would have us spit them out.
26:56So, they So, anyway, there's shit's going down.
27:01We don't know what it is, and I go to my mom a year and a half ago when I'm starting to with I'm starting to just remember this stuff partly because I was applying for a job with the federal government that required a security clearance, and they asked for all of my um my my records, all of my student records.
27:22>> Like all the way back?
27:23>> All my transcripts. And I I'm being like, you know, goody two-shoes students. I'm like, I'll go back to my grade school. I don't think it Right?
27:29>> [laughter] >> I'm thinking like the furthest back anyone go I'm like 57, right? Furthest back anyone goes is high school. So, I email >> would suffice.
27:36>> Yes, exactly. So, but I email my grade school and they're like, oh sure, well, you know, it's on microfiche or whatever, but we'll go get it. They sent it to me, and all the comments from my first through eighth grade are redacted.
27:49>> Redacted? Like blacked out?
27:52>> And that's where you would put the sore stuff. I mean, so I know that I'm not insane cuz I called my friend, you know, Rita who was also in the program with me, and I said like, were we in the sore program because it's not on my transcript? She's like She's like, what do you mean, were we? Like, that's where we met. And And so >> Yeah.
28:09>> So, that's gone.
28:10>> So, you saw blacked out >> every single page where the where the teachers would write things. And I know that I'm not insane because at least my mom kept first grade.
28:21And so, I can see the first grade transcript without the redactions, and I can see the one with redactions.
28:26>> the one with without redactions say that was interesting?
28:29>> Oh, just like, oh, she's reading at the fifth grade level, blah, blah, blah.
28:32She's amazing. We love her. Maybe she should be more bold. But obviously, I I lived into that one.
28:38>> Yeah, you definitely did. But [laughter] But there's there's that's the pre years before you were in sore. So, I guess they're like redacting the tracking that would have happened to be like, "Ooh, this one's qualified once you track them one through five or one through six."
28:54>> Maybe. I mean, like I I I I asked her. I said, "Why are these redacted?" She said, "That's just how we have them. I don't know why." I'm like, "But I'm me.
29:01Like, I should be able to see my own records, right?"
29:04>> So, anyway, that started to get me interested. And And I called my mom.
29:09And I said, "You know, remember that SOAR program I was in in seventh grade?"
29:14And she, without saying another thing, you know, she's in her 80s. She's still very sharp. She goes, "Oh, yeah, they were studying you."
29:21And I go, "Who?"
29:22>> She thinks.
29:23>> [laughter] >> I go, "Who?" And she goes, "I don't know. CIA? I don't know."
29:27But she just said CIA because everyone thinks of CIA.
29:30>> There's [clears throat] a lot of other things though, too. There's >> There's so many intelligence agencies.
29:33There's so many defense agencies.
29:34There's like other countries. There's contractors. But it could have been CIA.
29:39I don't know. I think it was some >> Some countries.
29:42>> Right?
29:44>> Or the Soviets coming after you.
29:45>> Maybe. I don't Who knows? I don't know.
29:48All I know is like, you have to think that the story that we constantly fall back on right? Oh, CIA was doing this or the Air Force was doing this.
30:00Like I don't know. It seems to me not a full enough story.
30:08>> I agree. I feel like it's very one-dimensional and like straight to the point sometimes. And these are places that you're When you think about it, there's nothing about them that's ever straight to the point.
30:19>> Yeah.
30:19>> For better or worse. In a lot of cases, for worse, but >> Yeah.
30:22>> Yeah.
30:23>> Yeah, and it also feels like almost like a scapegoat. Like, CIA is the agency that can't say anything.
30:29Like, everyone can blame them for And then they can't say anything. So, I'm involved with these folks at who used to be some of them at CIA and some in other intelligence agencies also.
30:38>> are.
30:39>> Well, whatever. You know, I'm good friends with them and maybe they are maybe they aren't, but all I know is they're making a movie called The Power We Hold about women in the intelligence community. And what women in the intelligence community have tried to do to make that a better place.
30:55And when it and it makes me want to talk with you about that. Just bringing this up right now.
31:00>> Please.
31:01>> Makes me want to talk with you about how this stuff was handled. So if you look at I did some work on the history of I got this all over your table. Do you have a napkin?
31:08>> It's fine. I'll I'll grab one. Yeah.
31:11>> Okay.
31:12>> Keep going.
31:13>> I just I got it.
31:14>> You're good.
31:14>> Just rolling my >> [laughter] >> I was just rolling my grapefruit around and then I just started peeling.
31:18>> I'm the same like if I had had that sitting in front of me, that would have been unpeeled like 40 minutes ago. My hands would not I'm good. Thank you. My hands would not be able to control themselves.
31:27>> I know cuz it's there.
31:28>> Yeah, that's why I have like this in front of me.
31:31I need something to fidget with, right?
31:34>> So thank you.
31:36Um So the >> [laughter] >> I did a little research on this and so I I saw that I found out through obituaries of my teacher in the sore program and of the counselor that I saw cuz I remembered her name.
31:51And her name was actually on my transcript that wasn't redacted. It was you know, she had to help me graduate from eighth grade and say I was ready to go to high school.
31:59So thank you. Um I saw that This is the part where I just my mind starts to fall apart. Okay.
32:08>> [sighs and gasps] >> So I saw that um their husbands had both come from Aiken, South Carolina. Both my teachers husband and um the counselor's husband.
32:27>> Fort Bragg.
32:28>> So there's a bunch there. So there's a right near that's right near Augusta, Georgia where the now the cyber command is and back in the day was you know, sort of some kind of equivalent. But it's also right near where um uh I think it's called Savannah River National Lab is.
32:44>> Okay.
32:45>> And it used to be DuPont.
32:47And DuPont was initially responsible for I think plutonium or uranium um processing for World War II and then it became Savannah River National Lab when they took it over and said like we have to do this.
33:01So um and the SORE program, Students on Active Research, I found a bunch of old newspaper articles actually started back there in that location. So in the late '70s, before I was in it, started there before it came to Illinois.
33:18>> Yeah, but I pulled this up by the way.
33:20What you were saying is correct. DuPont played a critical role in the World War II Manhattan Project by designing, building, and operating major nuclear facilities.
33:27Most notably Most notably the Hanford Engineer Works in Washington, which produced plutonium for the Nagasaki bomb. They also built It's actually both. They built the X-10 Graphite Reactor in Oak Ridge and processed uranium or at their Deepwater, New Jersey plant.
33:41>> Yeah.
33:42>> Wow.
33:43>> So I had read online on Reddit about the SORE program. I was looking to see how Do other people remember the SORE program? So I found someone on online who was from Nevada and I'm like, "Oh, that's a testing site. That's interesting." So I'm starting to string this together of like there's some kind of radio radioactivity link here with this stuff.
34:02Okay, so then I have this dream. So I move from So I have I'm still in the space of like for decades I've been in the space of I'm going to skip over a lot of stuff, but basically being shown in various ways that I was being watched still and studied still.
34:21>> [sighs] >> Uh you know, as recently as a couple years ago, right? And so life events and I don't mean to sound paranoid like and I don't And actually what >> Don't worry about it.
34:34>> Yeah, but I but I want to say this because when people have this experience, they can feel grandiose, like I'm just being grandiose.
34:41You know?
34:42>> I understand what you mean, but it's all right.
34:43>> But I've got the receipts.
34:44>> [laughter] >> It's very clear to me that I'm not being grandiose.
34:49Someone was interested in studying me.
34:52And um and they did it in incredibly robust and um and that simultaneously ham-fisted ways.
35:01Unless they wanted me to know, in which case they did it in elegant ways because I knew and they they also did it interestingly.
35:08Um So I move across the country. I'm still in this state of oh, I have to hold on to this since I was a in seventh grade. I had to hold on to this, like, okay, I have to be on the right side of this, you know, we got to hold our secrets and you know without awareness that I was still making this victim or perpetrator choice, right?
35:33>> Mhm.
35:34>> And then I have this dream.
35:38And I move so I move from California. I don't know why really I move from California to DC. I can't really explain it to people. I just like I have to go do this thing.
35:47>> When was this again?
35:48>> This was uh fall of 2023.
35:50>> Okay.
35:50>> Yeah, so November 2023. So December 2023, I'm only you know, in the DC area, Northern Virginia I'm in, um for a month and I have this dream that this So little sorry, preamble to the dream.
36:06Lots of preambles. I apologize.
36:07>> I love preambles.
36:08>> Okay.
36:09>> You don't got to apologize. You're doing great. I'm I'm thoroughly fascinated.
36:13>> Okay, good. Good [laughter] cuz I both fascinating and horrifying.
36:18>> Yeah, Dave had to leave the room. He was crying.
36:20>> [laughter] [gasps] >> Um Yeah, so I I you know, I I have studied psychic abilities enough and had my capacities studied enough to know that I have some decent psychic capacities.
36:35Um one of them is precognition and one of them is telepathy.
36:38>> Can you explain precognition to people?
36:40You started to explain it with the cards earlier, but just so people fully understand.
36:44>> Precognition is using means other than the usual ones to predict future events that shouldn't be predictable. So, the usual ones are like, I hear thunder, maybe it will rain.
36:54>> Right.
36:55>> Right? Or my mom told me she'd call, I bet she'll call. Right? These are like the usual means. These are kind of like inferential or using unconscious processing of information to make predictions.
37:06This is how we normally make predictions, right?
37:09>> if I can like look at this phone and go like this and be like, Tom Stevens, I don't know who that is, I made it up, is going to call and then they do.
37:16>> Wouldn't it be cool if the actual Tom Stevens called?
37:18awesome.
37:19>> [laughter] >> So, that's and you can test that in the lab and it's not too hard to test. And so, I know that my precognitive capacities have been tested and I know that, you know, they're above chance and same with telepathy.
37:32So, >> [gasps] >> um So, when I dream things, I also know that I have precognitive dreams that have come true and I've worked with um wonderful guy.
37:45Yeah, so I mean, this is why I'm interested in this field, right?
37:47>> one of those today, though.
37:49>> What did you dream? Tell me more.
37:50>> talk about that.
37:51>> No, can you? Yes. No, I'm going to eat my grapefruit.
37:54>> Yeah, no, no, I can't I actually can't talk about that.
37:58But I had one today. Yeah, no, it's crazy.
38:00>> Okay. Do you already know that it was precognitive? Did it already come true?
38:04>> Cuz I literally dreamed it. You know how like I've had way smarter people who actually understand this explain this to me, so if I'm misexplaining this, correct me in the comments, but when you are going through the stages of sleep, often times, I think it's like once you actually get to REM sleep, I forget if it's like 4 hours or 5 hours in or something, the dreams after that you can remember well, but maybe the dreams you have at the beginning you very quickly forget when you wake up. I might have messed that up, but >> Yes.
38:34>> basically >> Something like that.
38:36>> like something I experience a lot that's kind of in line with what I've been explaining is that if I wake up to go to the bathroom at 3:30 I'll like vaguely remember a dream I was having and then by the time I walk back to the bed I >> forgotten it.
38:51>> But then the dream that occurs after that before I wake up at 6:15 >> Yes.
38:55>> I remember perfectly.
38:56>> Yeah, yeah.
38:57>> And I Yeah, I had a I had a dream last It was very random. It was like It was a dream I'd never had before, but I I had a a dream that involved like multiple different things and then it happened.
39:12>> Mhm.
39:13Yeah. So, but that's the exciting definition of a precognitive dream. So, it has to have multiple independent verifiers.
39:20And then it has to occur.
39:21>> Yeah.
39:22>> So, that's how you know it's precognitive. So So, I know from It's very hard to determine if any particular dream that's precognitive was informed by unconscious information that you don't know that you're processing. Like when people dream someone's going to die or something, but maybe unconsciously you met with them and you saw something that like oh, their skin's yellow, but you don't notice it consciously and then they had liver failure. You know what I mean?
39:43>> Yeah.
39:44>> But like >> Is there Is there something to deja vu like related to that as well or is that in a a different >> deja vu and I was just talking with um Oh god.
39:57>> And I'll bring you back to precognition, but sorry about that. I had to ask that.
40:01>> Mhm.
40:04Oh, what is this guy I'm blocking his name.
40:07It's the opposite of Nick Bo- Bostrom.
40:10>> Oh, Bostrom's so interesting.
40:12>> Isn't he interesting?
40:13Also like pretty dark.
40:15>> Oh, very very And when I read Superintelligence, the way I read that book was like it was one chapter at a time and I'd like get up >> Shut the book.
40:23>> Yeah, I'd like I'd like get up like this.
40:26Be like Woah.
40:30Mhm. All right. Like it wasn't enjoyable, but I'm glad I read it. You know what I mean?
40:34>> Yeah.
40:35>> And then you hear him talk and he's like, "So, if you take the paperclip and the paperclip goes this way out, but then it goes that way out, the AI will tell you that it has eaten you alive."
40:45And you're just [laughter] like You are way too calm about this, my friend. That's very uh It's an interesting world.
40:53>> We don't have to create that world, but that world is um one possibility.
40:58>> Yes.
40:59>> You know.
41:00>> Yes.
41:00>> I vote I vote against it.
41:02>> I vote against it, too.
41:03>> For the record. So, no, but there there's If you think of the We'll get We'll get back to déjà vu and precognition. If you think of the brain and one of its main jobs is to put events in time like a story that makes sense.
41:18I mean, so actually you can show through different illusions and stuff that the brain is taking information from all the different sensory systems and then internal information and it's putting them together in a story that makes sense.
41:31And if this particular stimulus takes longer to process, it's going to hold on to that and make sure it's inserted into the right place to make a coherent story.
41:38>> Yes.
41:39>> So, if you mess up on that as the brain you get déjà vu.
41:45Or you could get precognition.
41:48Right?
41:48>> If you mess up on it, that's the >> mess up on telling the story the right way. In other words, if if if there's an informational substrate that has all that [clears throat] information with without space and time and your brain messes up, doesn't grab the right things you could be grabbing something from the future. Bless you.
42:07Or you could be grabbing something that you already grabbed. Like the déjà vu thing.
42:12>> Okay.
42:14Put a pin in that.
42:15That's some wild stuff.
42:18So, you were talking about you with this dream in December 2023.
42:21>> I knew I had worked before with um a guy, wonderful guy named Joel Mullen, who used to be in the Secret Service and then he was on the joint anti-terrorism task force in San Diego. Because I had this dream about a bridge in San Diego and I had already had a dream about a couple other events our dreams about a couple other events that had come true. So, I got I I told myself, "Look, I'm going to tell someone from here on out if I have one of these dreams even if I feel foolish."
42:50So, I knew that my dreams were sometimes precognitive.
42:55So, I had this dream that there was a car I guess it was a red convertible with the top down. There was a guy in the car. He had an FBI badge in the window and I was walking and he was cruising alongside of me and I turned around Stop following me. Like, what the And he goes, "Uh you know, I just want you to know uh we we like that you're spunky, but call the office."
43:22>> Call the office?
43:23>> And I Yeah, right. And that's exactly what I said to him. I said, "Call the office? I don't work for you. I actually don't have a job right now. So, like, what?"
43:33And I'm pissed at him and he goes, "Call the office." I climb onto the hood because in the dream like that's what you do when you really want to make an impression.
43:40>> onto the hood of someone's car?
43:41>> Yeah. Cuz I was just like like my hackles were up, you know? I was changing, I believe, from this like I'm going to be part of this secret and keep the secret and be good Julia brown-noser to like the you part of like you guys have to stop studying me and you got to tell me what the is going on or I'm just going to go talk about it. So, I guess which I did. So, anyway [laughter] So, I climb on top of the car and I crawl over to him and say, "What's the number?"
44:15And he gives me this phone number.
44:18And I wake up and I write it down.
44:20And so, that's the only time I've ever had a phone number in a dream. And so, I immediately go and, you know, the area code in which I'm staying, I Google it and there's no phone number like that in the area code in which I'm staying, which was the 703 area code.
44:34Then I tried the DC area code and the Bethesda area code, just on a hunch.
44:39Turns out, the same department of the federal government has that phone number in the DC and the Bethesda area code, but at different times in history. In the '80s and [snorts] maybe early '90s, it was in DC. The same phone number gets carried over for the same department to Bethesda when it moves um in the late '90s and then the '00s.
45:03So, this is very interesting because the SORE program is happening in the '70s and '80s and then in the '90s and '00s, it turns in essentially turns into GATE.
45:12The The department is a department of the US Army that studies the effects of radiation on on humans.
45:20>> Oh my god.
45:21>> That's what happened. And then the the first document that shows up when I actually search for this number on Google is this National Def- I I think it's called the Defense Nuclear Security Agency or something like that. Their big memo back in the '70s, 1978, I believe.
45:37Or no, '68 maybe.
45:39It's in my book. I I have better journalism practices in my book and I'm >> [laughter] >> And uh >> Reserving the backup plan to join Dory podcast. I got it.
45:49>> [laughter] >> Sorry. [gasps] Um And it just says that we have to start studying the effects of radiation on humans and it underscores we can't use animals. We have to use humans because this is a human problem.
46:04I'm fascinated by this. I don't know if the drink that we got I immediately think back to the drink.
46:09>> Yeah.
46:10>> And these radiation burns that I got when I was in California in the within the last 10 years. I immediately think back to that and I think, "Oh, was the drink like I had died to help uh or iodine to help reduce radiation poisoning, or was it like a little bit of radioactivity to see if it had an impact?" But I know that I would be an interesting person to study because, you know, my my mother was obviously exposed to radiation.
46:36>> Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you though, cuz now I'm going back to the initial story you told me.
46:41Your parents worked in this.
46:42>> Yeah.
46:43>> You also said something you were you and two of your siblings were sent away.
46:48>> No, no, that's my mother. My I only have one sibling.
46:51>> I'm I'm sorry.
46:52Your mother's parents worked with uranium >> Yeah.
46:56>> first, right? Your mother and the two siblings are sent away when they do that, so they don't have access to it.
47:01>> months. We don't know why.
47:03>> But then your mom ended up working with uranium herself?
47:06>> No, my mom ends up being recruited to go to University of Chicago on a full ride scholarship.
47:11>> watch her there.
47:12>> And she ends up studying non-speaking autistic students.
47:16>> But she Okay, yeah, I [clears throat] was trying to get the story straight, but it the point that I was thinking in my head is actually the same.
47:22>> Yeah.
47:23>> Yeah, rehashed right there.
47:25She was never exposed to it.
47:28And you were never >> at home. So, she So, it's like the the deal is >> But if she was sent away?
47:35>> They're Well, no, that she's sent away after this. So, they're a poor family.
47:38They're living in Denver.
47:40Um all of the people who work at the plant her father was was actually working with uranium. Her mother was probably a secretary or something.
47:47>> Okay.
47:47>> So, her father's probably the chief one who comes home with uranium dust on his boots.
47:52So, as she's growing up before she reaches the age of seven, she's exposed.
47:56>> So, then if she's exposed to it just exposed to it it's not like her boots then have uranium on it when she has you.
48:02>> Yeah.
48:03>> How are you exposed to it?
48:05>> Just that I think the idea is not that I was exposed to it.
48:09>> You're the offshoot of it.
48:11>> If you were going to study the effects of uranium on people you would study the next generation.
48:17And then I wonder about the drink.
48:19>> [snorts] >> Whoa.
48:21>> Yeah.
48:22Does that make sense?
48:22>> Yes, that's clocking now. I had to put it together but >> So as a cognitive neuroscientist and thinking about human exceptional performance one of the effects of radiation whether it's ionizing radiation like uranium or plutonium or non-ionizing radiation like EMF that we get from our devices all the time one of the effects of radiation might be extending capacities like psychic abilities.
48:47Right? And so I think they were looking for both positive and negative outcomes of exposure to radiation both within a person's lifetime and you know in the womb, right? So a woman's eggs are around even when she's a kid. Right?
49:04So if a woman is exposed to radiation as a kid that can cause mutations in the eggs that later manifest themselves when she has children.
49:15>> That makes sense.
49:17So you have this dream >> So I have this dream to tell me to call the office.
49:21>> right back to an area to a number that would correlate with the part of the government that literally studies that stuff.
49:29>> This is before I was thinking of that but once I have that dream and I get the redaction I'm like And the other thing that happened that triggered it all this sort of just disclosure self-disclosure is that I applied for this job but I was recruited to apply for this job 4 days after I had sent in a FOIA request to ask them about the SOAR program the Air Force about the SOAR program. So, I got a phone call saying, "You know, this is a job that I had submitted my resume for back in like February." This was November.
50:00And they're calling me with interest in the job. Then Then the FOIA people, this is I talk about >> Someone goes like, "Jim, we got one. All right, get her in."
50:09>> So, I get a job.
50:09>> Zapper.
50:10>> I got an email from the FOIA people after I got the call from the recruiter and I said, "Oh, that sounds like a cool job. I think I'll apply for it." The FOIA people say, "You know, if you really want to know about the SOAR program," essentially I'm paraphrasing, "you you have to know exactly what program in the Air Force ran it." And I'm like, "I don't know that." But I also had the feeling like that was a pretty quick turnaround for FOIA.
50:34And maybe they don't want me to have an outstanding FOIA request. So, I'm going to close this cuz I'm interested in this job. Cuz I'm still in that place of like, "I'm going to do the thing."
50:42So, I I say, "Okay, drop it. Drop the FOIA request."
50:483 minutes later I get a call from the recruiter. "Oh, great. You know, you passed to the next level. It's time to do the cognitive testing."
50:573 minutes and I know that because I I have a journal where I write things that are interesting that happened.
51:02>> you do.
51:02>> [laughter] >> I could I could have guessed that one.
51:06>> Yeah.
51:07>> [sighs and gasps] >> This is not long ago either.
51:10>> So, this is fall of 2024.
51:12>> Yeah, yeah, less than that.
51:13>> Yeah.
51:14So, this is kind of stuff.
51:16But finally I'm in this state where I'm like, "Oh, I get it."
51:20Um I just have to say what's true for me and what I experienced.
51:25>> Yeah.
51:25>> And I don't have to explain.
51:28You know, all that stuff I'm telling you could just be my own fabrication about putting things together to try to understand my history. Fine. Like that's I can tell you that's true.
51:36>> doing your best to piece it together.
51:37There's nothing wrong with that.
51:38>> And this is my experience.
51:40>> All right, so this is so interesting because this is years years later, too, right? Like you live a a a whole scientific life here already in between these things happening, right? Like you were doing things for a few decades that happens to be tangentially related to some of the very things you're putting together. So let's let's go back for a second if you don't mind.
52:03Obviously you go through the sword program. Obviously you're an extremely smart individual. Some very weird things happen there. You don't know about that.
52:10You get in touch with that later in a way as we just talked about. But then What was that?
52:16>> I was giving you the thumbs up on your summary. Your summary is excellent.
52:20>> you were giving me a wait a minute.
52:22Sorry. So So then you end up going to college. I guess the first question would be at what point did you really hone in on even just like I'm very interested in science. I'm going to go that route even before neuroscience.
52:37>> You know, my dad was a theoretical physicist and [clears throat] the one time so he also had severe severe I mean, he's still alive. He has severe severe obsessive compulsive disorder but it's a little calmed down because he went to therapy.
52:52But at the time yeah, but at the time he lost all his jobs because he would like line up his shirt sleeves for like hours every day.
53:00Really really bad.
53:02>> But the time when he would do his physics equations and I and when he would be working on something like he worked on the Strategic Defense Initiative like laser nuclear x-ray laser thing.
53:16And when he when he would get in that when I would see him in the space where he was doing his equations and working working [snorts] on the physics he was free of that. He was like his mind moved fluidly. He wasn't paralyzed.
53:31He was he was free. It was like watching a musician jam, right? And so I really took note of that. Like here's my father who I know is is debilitated.
53:42I mean I see him most of his life. I know he's just he's frozen, you know, a lot.
53:47And yet there's this one thing that frees him. And so I could be with him in that because my mind worked in that way, too. So I could say, you know, "Dad, let's let's talk about how the light is going through these, you know, old farmhouse windows and how it's bent It was a way to connect with him.
54:04And then I noticed in myself that I was learning him. Like, you know, he he I mean, it's kind of amazing because his obsessive-compulsive disorder led him to abuse my sister and myself because he thought there was something wrong with our mouths and he was going to fix it.
54:24Uh so so sometimes with obsessive-compulsive disorder it's all about the person's own body and he did have that, too. He thought there was something wrong with his body. You know, the the story of obsessive-compulsive disorder is there's something wrong and I'm going to do this thing, this ritual to fix it.
54:37Well, one of his rituals was about flossing our teeth.
54:40And he would floss our teeth for 45 minutes to 90 minutes a night from the ages of 3 to 10. Like, you're just like bleeding gums. It's yeah, pretty bad.
54:50And so, um my mom >> 45 to 90 minutes?
54:55>> that I'm not making that up because he tape recorded it.
55:01>> [laughter] >> I know, right? So it's like cuz he's pretty crazy.
55:06>> were laughing so I >> I'm laughing because it's so it's so crazy.
55:09>> seen the tapes?
55:10>> I listened to them. He didn't videotape them. He listened When I was When I turned 25, I started I found this old tape.
55:17It was a 90-minute tape and by the end of the 90 minutes, he wasn't done with flossing my teeth.
55:23>> Do you think >> I heard on it was really important, which is me going "Daddy, you already flossed that tooth."
55:32In other words, I fought back with him.
55:34>> And And would keep going.
55:35>> And he would keep going, but I would still fight back. Daddy, stop it. You've already done that. And so, that was really powerful.
55:44And that's my that's where I get my narrative of redemption.
55:48Is I fought back even though he didn't stop. Like Like that was just a random night, one of many, right?
55:55So, >> Do you feel like that was all right, this is a little different than any type of like abuse? I've I've I've heard it before with the variables. Do you think that that was purely his disorder doing what he thought he was supposed to do versus like getting a rush out of >> Some sexual rush?
56:16>> over you? No, I wasn't even going there, but sure, go there if you want. I was saying just in general having like some sort of power over you.
56:23>> Um I think it's the OCD. It was so severe.
56:26>> Yeah.
56:27>> I don't know what was done to him.
56:29Something must have been done to him.
56:31Um but >> Would he do this kind of stuff to your mom? Like not the same thing, but >> No.
56:38>> He didn't He didn't have any >> would He revered my mother, and I got off actually easier than my sister because I looked like my mother. And also, that's why I was able to say to him, "Stop doing this." And he would laugh.
56:51Because not because he's evil. My dad is like actually, if you if you know him, he's like one of the sweetest men. And when I talked to him, I brought him into therapy with me. This was kind of Most people don't get to do this, but I brought him into therapy with me.
57:03And I told him about how much it hurt me that he wasn't able to control his OCD.
57:08And that that really like I felt like I couldn't trust my father cuz he would like it was crazy making.
57:13>> Did he know that he had done this?
57:15>> Yes, and he just broke >> He was aware that it was 45 to 90 minutes?
57:19>> Yeah, and he broke into tears, and he just was like, "I was weak. I didn't know how to control my mind, and my mind decided there was something wrong with your mouth."
57:29And [snorts] so, this it made me fascinated and with again, the human mind. And that's where I took my my love of science and my connection with my father into something that like, [snorts] what is the deal with the mind that it can get so warped this way?
57:44I mean, yeah, and I think there was a little sexual component in the sense that how can there not be cuz he's like holding me down on my bed. He's not flossing my teeth standing up. So, like, that feels real.
57:55You know, but like my mother's whole family was raped her when she grew up. So, it's like, you know, she's at downstairs doing dishes thinking, um you know, at least he's not raping her.
58:08Right? And so, like >> knew she knew what he was doing.
58:11>> She knew what he was doing.
58:12>> Oh.
58:13>> Right? And so, and so I talked to her about this and she's like, yeah. I thought at least that that's not happening. And so, it's like every generation gets a little bit better.
58:25When this intergenerational >> at it.
58:27>> Thank you. That's my That's my narrative of the day.
58:29>> way. Optimistic way of looking at it.
58:31>> Yeah, well, also I had this experience of this woman in her 50s, 40s, 50s, sitting in a rocking chair in my mind's eye when I was a kid and my dad was doing this on the bed next to the bed.
58:45Um in my mind's eye, there's a woman over here and she's saying these things to me that are really healing. And she's saying it this all happening I I I gifted imagination, right? So, in my imagination, she's saying like, you could be mad at your dad. He's really messed up.
59:02>> While it's going on?
59:03>> While it's going on and she's saying like, you know what? You're going to thrive someday. Actually, I know it doesn't feel like it, but like So, she's telling me these things. Uh you know, I I'm making this character tell me these things.
59:14>> But you Did you really see her?
59:16>> No, mind's eye. Like Like in my imagination I'm There's this character who's doing this.
59:21And then in my 40s, I go to therapy and I find out there's a thing called time travel narrative therapy, where you take your current self and you go back to yourself who was having the trauma, and you bring your wisdom and your love and you say, "Hey, you know, you're going to be okay." And I said, you know, "Let's try it." And I tried it. And of course, I have the experience of sitting in the chair and saying these things to myself.
59:43And now I can't remember if I actually originally had that experience as a child or if I'm misremembering it and I don't care.
59:54So, it ends up being >> be perfectly Yeah.
59:58>> Yeah, who cares? Because it was incredibly healing. And that's part of why I created the Institute for Loving Time is to create technology that can allow people to visit themselves in time at difficult times and bring that love.
60:09>> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
60:15And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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