Buying Pastors & Stalking Churchgoers: Israel’s Longtime Heist on the Christian Church Exposed

0:04Thanks for coming back.

0:05>> Yeah, thanks, man.

0:06>> Maybe you can help solve a mystery. So, I've always known that different people have different views on Israel. I've never been upset about it. Post-Gaza, I'm rethinking about if all those views are legitimate, but I know that decent people have different views on Israel.

0:19Totally fine. And that includes Christians.

0:21And but in the past year, it does seem that for some Christian leaders, I don't want to call anyone out by name, but Israel's the only thing that matters.

0:32So, they'll approach fellow Christians with one question in mind, where does this person stand on the government of Israel?

0:39And so, it occupies a much greater percentage of mental disk space than I ever imagined.

0:45Certainly than it does for me.

0:47So, what is that?

0:50>> Well, it's the Old Covenant, you know, I was raised just non-denominational Christian in large-scale churches, and we were pro-Israel.

0:58>> Yeah, yeah.

0:58>> It's It's just a consistent deal when you look at I'm always going to go back to scripture. So, I'm always going to use the Bible to reference my perspective and what I what I think is going on.

1:08>> Yes.

1:09>> The nation-state of Israel has just become an idol to the church in regards to how they perceive Not all of them, but how they Some of them perceive it, and you have to ask why. And so, we've done a little digging in regards to some fire filings and and others and and when you look at the Old Covenant in the Bible, it's one of those spots or parts of the covenant that you can weaponize.

1:34Israel's one of them. Giving and generosity, tithing is one of them.

1:38And when Christ came, he he came to fulfill that whole Old Covenant, that whole contract. A new covenant. It's literally a new covenant. So, that Old Covenant is complete, done, fulfilled, put on the shelf. A new contract is in place, and that's Christ's contract, Christ's covenant. And um if you're if you're a Bible-believing Christian. But what that new covenant does is it takes the teeth out of the old covenant, the old contracts, you know, that Mosaic law. But people like to lean on that contract and that law because you can weapon- I'm going to say weaponize it.

2:09You can build empires again and build power structures around basically double dipping in covenants. So you can say take some things that Jesus said and grab a couple things from the old covenant and mash them together and you have a just a different thing you have Judeo-Christianity.

2:25>> [laughter] >> You know, not Christianity and not Judaism, you have Judeo-Christianity. Um >> It's like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.

2:31>> Exactly. It's it's it's neither or. It's It's so Israel, the nation-state, has become one of those cards that you can pull and say, "Hey, if you don't back the nation-state, then you clearly don't believe this book or or, you know, that God is our God." And so I always push back. I consider myself kind of an auditor in this regard, so I wanted to audit the nation-state of Israel and say, "What is it exactly scripturally?"

2:56>> is Boy, it's it's jarring to hear you put it so plainly, but that is really what they're saying. If you don't support the Netanyahu government, you're not a Christian.

3:06Yeah.

3:07>> I've heard it. I've I've heard that and Some, like the the dimmer ones, like Huckabee, just say it out loud, but that is the assumption behind a lot of it.

3:14>> Well, and if and if my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ haven't read the book in its entirety, then they'll take what Huckabee or what their potential pastor says from the stage as as scripturally sound. And so that's what I've had a great time doing.

3:29>> I mean, yeah, I've read the book, by the way, more than once, but I didn't need to read it to know that Jesus is probably not endorsing killing the innocent or killing kids.

3:40>> Well, I would say there's even a naivete, there's a strategic ignorance around that.

3:43Right? Like in season one of The Religion Business, uh a development economist breaks down what strategic ignorance is and we as humans want to stay strategically ignorant of things that push against our biases.

3:54>> Boy, I've been there.

3:55>> Yeah, and so have I. And so that's the thing is is as we grow and hopefully mature, we look at the the surroundings and say, "Okay, what is truth and what is not truth?"

4:04>> Yes.

4:04>> And a really simple truth is the nation-state of Israel is not the ethnic tribe >> Yeah.

4:09>> that's described in the Torah. And so if that's our baseline, then okay, now we can reshape our we can look at what's truth and not truth and and see you know, where people are leveraging that card or weaponizing that card for their own gain.

4:24>> But you would think, again, even if you you're not familiar with the details of that book, you haven't read the Old or New Testaments, you would sort of intuit, you would sense that Jesus is not in favor of say like genocide.

4:38>> Correct. I I would hope. But but there's always a counterargument. Like in these FARA documents, you know, the you know, these it literally the the foreign agent is Israel Minister of Foreign Affairs, you know, and >> So I I keep stepping on it. So what are those documents? So you're you're basically saying, in order to understand this, you look not just at the theology, but at the money.

4:56>> Correct, at the money because So okay, yes, I think most people would say genocide in Gaza is wrong, right? But then they then they will always find a counter, which is well, there's bad things, there's there's there's evil inside Gaza that needs to be removed, right?

5:10>> Yes.

5:10>> And so that's where this FARA document's interesting is cuz you can see the nation-state weaponizing the American church to sway their opinion to say, "Hey, you know what? No, the genocide is rationalized and we're not going to call it genocide because of X, Y, and Z." So that's what this document just shows. It shows that millions of dollars came from the nation-state of Israel to sway massive megachurches in America or at least the pastors because when you can sway the pastor, the pastor can sway their congregation.

5:40>> So how does it work?

5:42>> How does In regards to this system?

5:44>> Yeah, the system. What what are the FARA FARA means Foreign Agent Registration Act.

5:48>> Correct.

5:49>> What are >> do those documents show?

5:51>> So, this one shows in particular, um, basically, uh, we'll call it like a marketing effort and and ironically, this is this is fun. There's multiple pages of just hundreds of churches on the West Coast, um, that have very large audiences. And what it is is it's a marketing effort. It's a geofencing effort. So, if you go to your church and you walk into that building, there is a digital geofence and if you ping your phone, that geofence is triggered and what that means is they're going to get your phone's IP address, they're going to start sending you messages and sending you advertising that's

6:25pro-Israel and, you know, anti-Palestine for lack of a And it says all this in the documents. And so, ironically, this is what I called my dad this morning cuz I was like, "Hey, what church did we go to when we were kids?"

6:38And sure enough, the churches the two churches I went to from the day I was born to 21 years old are on that list.

6:46And so, that means had I walked into those churches, I could have potentially been geofenced and then they would have tracked my phone and they could ping me pro pro-nation state Israel material.

6:57And so, this effort is funded by Israel, by the nation state of Israel.

7:02>> And is it, um, when you say funded, like, does money flow to the church?

7:07Does the church know that it's >> We can't congregation's being geofenced?

7:11>> Uh, the uh, no, not necessarily. So, that's where it gets dark is, um, the church doesn't even know that they're being targeted.

7:19And so, it's like a it's a over it's like a subversive targeting.

7:23>> Is a foreign government doing this to our churches here?

7:26>> Correct. A great example would be like, "Hey, if I if my kids are in college and the Chinese >> the Iranian government was doing this to us?"

7:33>> What if or Chi- China, Russia, Iran, what happens if they were targeting our universities? We would be up in arms.

7:39So, we have a a foreign government targeting our churches and then at the same time they also are targeting the pastors wanting them to come over to Israel the nation state. They walk through you know the you know they they give them tours of the historical sites which is awesome.

7:56But they're leveraging the Old Testament and these historical sites to basically calcify the nation state and say oh you what we're doing is is biblical and what Palestine and and these evil these other these other evil people are doing these to be wiped out. Like the great like there's some I highlighted it some of it for you in this document but it's wild.

8:14Um once you get past the the the list of hundreds of churches um it's such a long document. But so a Christian ready show show faith by works a Christian education and Israeli information campaign. The goal is to combat low American evangelical Christian approval of the nation state of Israel. Says it right there. So this this entire goal to geofence your church is to combat your low approval rating of a nation state. Well, maybe we should question like why is there a low approval rating? Are you committing genocide? Like that might be a reason why they're low.

8:49>> that and that does affect approval ratings.

8:50>> 100% and so the messaging that we are going to use inside this geofence it's all pro-Israel and then anti-Palestinian state.

8:58And they list the messaging that they're going to that they're going to hit the churches >> Anti-Palestinian state?

9:03>> Yep. Um the first is of course Hamas is a Palestinian terrorist organization.

9:08Um There was never a state of Palestine at any time in history. So these are the bullet points that you're going to see on your phones from this campaign.

9:18And then you can just keep going.

9:19There's there's a pastoral and education resources so they're going to give pastors educational resources that's pro-nation state Israel and anti-Palestine.

9:28They're going to go to college and Christian college universities and do the same thing.

9:33And you can just go through it. So this was millions of dollars was spent on this campaign and this is my favorite one. Ready? They proudly in their digital support effort, this is the largest geo-fencing and Christian targeting campaign in US history. That's what they call it in their own in their own documentation. We're targeting Christians and this is the largest targeting of Christians ever.

9:52And then they go to Christian events and this is a funny one for me. Um if you know Greg Laurie, but uh his church is Harvest in Riverside and he puts on these big festivals uh and he's in he's in a big scandal right now cuz he had a um he ran orphanages, his church ran orphanages in um in where was it? Uh man, it's it's in the show in Eastern Europe and one of the pastors there allegedly raped and sodomized hundreds, potentially hundreds of orphans there and Greg Laurie knew about it. They sent a team over and he did nothing about it cuz it was such a big revenue generator.

10:30And uh he's he's one of the he's one of the he's he actually he's ironically, hopefully their main spokesperson.

10:36They've got a photo of him in their deck, too, saying we want Greg Laurie to be the face of this. [laughter] >> Seriously?

10:42>> Yeah.

10:43So millions is the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs spends millions of dollars geo-fencing our churches for pro-Israeli, pro-nation state Israeli propaganda.

10:55And if your pastor's behind it, then hey, your pastor's going to say the same thing.

10:59>> hard to believe. You know, there's this line in Mark 13, I think, where Jesus is saying to the Pharisees, he's like or saying to others, religious leaders are in trouble cuz they wander around in their long flowing robes, they get respect from everyone in the marketplace, but they're actually cheating widows out of their property.

11:17And you read that and you're like, would a religious leader really cheat a widow out of her property? Like that's just crazy. Only in first century Palestine could that ever happen. And >> [laughter] >> then you hear her like it's just amazing. It's it's just hard it's hard it's hard to believe a religious person would do that.

11:34>> Well, there's there's religious organizations that are registered as churches that literally buy out permanent life insurance policies from elderly people that need money for pennies on the dollar.

11:44>> Actually?

11:44>> Actually.

11:45>> Yeah.

11:46>> Part of their business model as a church is to basically go up to a widow or or elderly couple that's struggling and say, "You know what? We're just going to buy your permanent life insurance policy that you've been paying down for 40 years for pennies on the dollar cuz you need money."

12:01There's one that's built I I was told a $700 million war chest base came off of that. They have $700 million sitting in the bank off of buying out elderly people's permanent life insurance policies.

12:11>> Oh.

12:12>> So, they are And and my my translation reads "devouring widows' houses." And they're devouring houses in the name of Jesus.

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13:28>> Um this was a uh uh an LLC named Show Faith by Works, registered in my hometown, San Diego, California. But, the name of the foreign principal is Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, right on the right on the cover.

13:42Page one.

13:43>> How many um pastors know that there's an effort like this behind their views on Israel?

13:54>> I'm going to say strategic ignorance. I I think they just see it as as gossip online. They don't want to get involved. Um this is a hot button topic topic for my family, you know, cuz I have I have family that are retired pastors or my my uncle's a missionary in Kyiv. Like I'm very very close to this, and most of them just don't want to believe it.

14:14You know, >> So, they don't believe that money is actually coming from a foreign government to influence the opinions of their >> Correct. Well, and and if and if I even put this in front of them, they'd point to the book.

14:25>> And say, "What?"

14:25>> And they'd say, "Nathan, like Israel bless Israel and you'll be blessed."

14:29>> Does it say that?

14:30>> No, no, no, no. And we went through the we had a great conversation about this.

14:33>> love that.

14:34>> Yeah. Yeah, we had a great conversation about this earlier. It's it's uh it's this idea and and since our last conversation, when we were talking about it is finished, when Christ says it's finished on the cross, I just went down a full rabbit hole in regards to digesting that Old Covenant versus New Covenant str- concept, and there is no way scripturally you can double dip in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in the Bible. If you are a Christ-following Christian, that Old Covenant, that Old Contract, is fulfilled and done.

15:07>> Yes.

15:07>> We don't look backwards. There's a great analogy that I was or maybe I want >> When the curtain in the temple is rent >> Uh-huh. Yes. Let me know if this is a good analogy or if I'm way off base, but like I I'm a laborer, right? And I need a job, and you're like, "Hey, Nathan, here's the contract. If you mow my lawns, cut my trees, and and clean my pool, like we're good. I'll pay you at the end of the day.

15:27So, that day I show up, I mow your lawn, I cut your trees to like exactly how you want it, I clean the pool, and you're like, "Here's your payment, Nathan." And I go on, and I'm like, "I fulfilled my contract with Tucker, and I'm going to go to the next house, right?" But instead, I wake up the next morning, I go, "You know what? I'm going to go back to Tucker's house, and I'm just going to start doing stuff. Cut the trees, mow the lawn again, even though it's already done, and he's not going to pay me."

15:49Because I fulfilled the contract with you. I'm supposed to look forward and move on to the new contract. But this is what churches are doing. They're like, "I don't know. We're going to come back to this old one and play in it because we like some of the some of the things in here. We like to cherry-pick parts of the old covenant because it justifies our current model." The tithe justifies how we can fund the business, right?

16:11Israel justifies how we can drum up attention for this idea of old tribal old tribal Israel.

16:20But it's we're just grasping at straws if that makes sense. Cuz Christ's message in his new covenant is a it's it's an unconditional, but very unknown you you march into the unknown in his covenant. You have to have full faith in him and the Holy Spirit. Legal legalistic covenants just they're easy to understand, right? You give me 10% or 23.3% based off of Old Testament tithe laws, and you're good.

16:44Right? You're done, Tucker. Go on your way. But Christ says, "No, no, no, you have the capacity and the the knowledge to give. What does your heart tell you?"

16:52Yes. So, it means you have to stand up and lead, right? And Hebrews it talks about you are your own priest now. Like, there's no mediator between the uh the Holy of Holies and the outer courts.

17:05Like, you Christ is that mediator mediator, and you walk straight through into the Holy of Holies.

17:10But that means you have to stand up and understand it and take responsibility and be that priest. But so, if you're that priest, what does it mean? You don't need the institution anymore. The model you don't need to sit in that pew.

17:22Right? Like you have you have Christ.

17:24You have his word, his logos, like his in you on your heart and mind.

17:29So, you got to lead, Tucker. You got to lead like Christ.

17:32That's a dangerous dangerous man or woman to be walking around in in any community or any government because hey, this this architecture this legal architecture of America doesn't hold me in. This this does. This book does.

17:46And so, we've we've knee-capped Christianity and we've put it on a shelf and we've consumerized consumerized we've you know, we've turned it into a a consumer product.

17:57And now we just have a bunch of knee-capped Christians walking around giving their 10% if that to a church to an institution that is not biblically sound. And then we can support nation-state of Israel and say, hey, I'm a Bible-believing Christian when at the end of the day like no, I believe in in what we've built. I believe in the institution we've built, but I don't necessarily believe this book.

18:18>> Well, that's a wrong turn if you arrive at that conclusion. So, how I mean, I always want to assume that people are employing what you called strategic ignorance. They they don't know because they don't want to know and therefore they're not honestly quite as guilty as someone who knows and does it anyway.

18:36>> Mhm.

18:37>> But given that, how big is the economy around this question? Like I notice all these pastors going to Israel on these trips. I've known a lot of them who do that. Is that all paid for by donors or the government or who does >> there's an estimated Let me I want to make sure I I pronounce the name right.

18:56It is Um Where is it? SJ something. It's about 320 million a year is dumped into this bucket to get to get pastors overseas.

19:09Oh, there we go. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews generates about 315 million a year in individual donor giving. And what that does is it So, let's let's let's dissect that name for a second, right?

19:23International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. Okay, 315-ish million goes into that pool every year. You'd think it's to educate people on the historical sites, right? I'm a Christian, I'd love to see you >> Yeah.

19:35>> You know, all all all these beautiful historical sites. I've been to Rome and hunched down in the prison where Paul was held. Like that You get to experience the stuff and you're like, "Wow, this is real." Like it You know, it happened. I can see Paul's journey and I can see the hill Christ died on and it's it's real powerful.

19:50But that 315 million is going to border security. It's going to ambulances inside Israel. It's going to um >> Border security?

19:59>> Yeah, yeah.

20:00Yeah. That's what >> Israeli border security?

20:03>> Yeah.

20:04So, it it it says it on their website.

20:05This is where this money goes. So, when you think about this, this isn't this isn't an International Fellowship of Jews and Christians because if it was an International Fellowship of Jews and Christians, you'd care about the Christians in Gaza.

20:16>> Of course.

20:17>> about the Christians in Lebanon. You'd care, you know, you'd care about these Christians in these other parts of this region just being obliterated.

20:24>> by the government, yeah.

20:25>> But so, what this is is it's it's actually a fund that's just calcifying the nation-state of Israel and utilizing the historical sites as the rationale for this fund.

20:35>> But the money is going to the ongoing operations of the government of Israel?

20:38>> Part of it, yeah.

20:40And then what you're doing is you're bringing pastors over and saying, "Look at all these beautiful historical sites."

20:44Does that make sense? So, you're taking the faith and you're using the faith as the as the the cookie, so to speak, or the carrot to to explain the nation-state of Israel and their in their actions.

20:55And you're using Christian donor money.

20:56That's 315 million from Christians, individual Christians that are giving generously to this fund with strategically ignorance with their ignorance, you know, with their What does the Bible talk about? Scales on the eyes, right? So, you can't see through your scales, but what you're actually funding is parts of this war mechanism.

21:15It's just like the LDS Church and and their investments in um you know, defense companies. Southern Baptist Convention, same thing.

21:23Guidestone is heavily invested in weaponry of war.

21:26>> Are you serious?

21:27>> Yeah.

21:28So, we've we've created machines. We've created this this Christian machine, this apparatus, that funds what we think, ignorantly, is good-intentioned International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. But, no, what it's doing is it's calcifying a nation-state that that is bombing Christians in other parts of that region, killing them, and they're justifying it. And this money is going to those efforts. Part of Part of that money's going to those efforts.

21:55>> absolutely crazy.

21:57>> Mhm.

21:57>> Christians ought to be safe in the Holy Land of all places, but they are not.

22:02Keep in mind, these are the descendants of the first converts, the first people who followed Jesus, people whose families have worshipped in the land Jesus walked for centuries, for thousands of years. And these same people are now facing enormous pressure to leave, fleeing their homes amid war and anti-Christian terrorism.

22:21Untold numbers of innocents are lost and without hope, fellow Christians. But, how do you support them?

22:28There are groups out there who claim to support them whose real agenda is to move them out of their actual homeland.

22:34We think that's wrong. We think that's evil, in fact. And so, we've looked far and wide to find a group that is actually supporting Christians [music] in the Middle East, and we found one.

22:44It's called the Vulnerable People Project, VPP. It's one of the very few groups consistently helping vulnerable Christians throughout the Holy Land.

22:52They deliver food and water to Christian communities trapped in Gaza, for example. They help rescue civilians.

22:58They provide emergency aid to families who have nowhere else to turn.

23:02Today, they are helping Christian churches and families safely remain in the communities where their ancestors worshiped Jesus.

23:09There should be a lot of groups doing this, and trust us, we have looked for over a year now, and there aren't.

23:15But the Vulnerable People Project is doing exactly that, and their work makes an amazing difference in people's lives.

23:21A gift of just $33 helps provide a day of protection and support for the vulnerable Christians in the West Bank.

23:28Who's looking out for them? Nobody.

23:30They are. A monthly gift of $83 helps sustain that protection throughout the month.

23:35So, visit savewestbankchristians.com and stand with Christians in the land where Christianity began. That savewestbankchristians.com.

23:46We are proud to partner with them. Thank you. How many people who are involved in this know?

23:52Involved in this fund?

23:53>> Yeah.

23:54>> I I don't think I don't think any of them would would rationally sit here and say, "Oh, I I know about that."

23:59You know? No, no, no, we want to get our pastor over to Israel to experience the historical sites, Nathan.

24:05Okay. Cool.

24:06That that That's That's not bad.

24:08Right? But what you don't realize is you're funding security on the border.

24:12You're funding, which which I think is great, ambulances when a bomb comes over into Israel, but you should also be funding ambulances when a bomb goes into Gaza.

24:21If that's your mission.

24:22>> Yeah, and you certainly shouldn't be funding bombs into Gaza.

24:24>> Correct.

24:25>> Which is what in effect you're doing, cuz you're freeing up >> Correct.

24:28>> those resources. Wow, that is really um So, now there is in part thanks to your efforts an awareness of a lot of this in a way that there wasn't a couple of years ago.

24:40Like there are a lot of people, including we the Pharaoh report said it, there are a lot of even evangelicals who are skeptical suddenly about whether it's a good idea to support Israel. What are pastors like this Are they getting pushed back? Like what's their experience?

24:55>> They're kind of a lot of these past So, this this this fire doc a lot of these churches are mega churches. They went after the they they geofence the big boys, right?

25:04Because big like if if you geofence a small to rural church in Pennsylvania that has 75 members, what's what's the point of that? No, I want to geofence a church that has 7,500 members, 10,000 members. And so these guys are already big influencers in regards to their their church and then in regards to the social media sphere. So they just like calcify together.

25:26You know, you have you have groups of them now just come going on podcasts sitting doing the same thing we are.

25:31>> Is that true?

25:32>> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:32>> Defending these positions?

25:34>> Yeah.

25:35Yeah, um his name is Jack Hibbs. He was on a podcast the other day um and he said uh you know, Israel was created created in a day and there's prophetic words in the Bible that say that. Well, no, they signed the documents in a day, but the nation-state of Israel was decades in coming.

25:51And so it does that make sense? They just take they'll take a scripture out of context and apply it to the nation-state and then everybody will take that same sound bite similar to what I said with you last that Christianity is more of a socialist construct than a capitalist construct.

26:06Everybody goes, oh, Nathan's a socialist, Tucker had a socialist on, he's a communist. Same thing, you take three or four words and you can create whatever, you know, whatever conversation you want around >> a socialist?

26:17>> I am not a socialist, no.

26:20Yeah.

26:21>> Um but it's all part of the propaganda machine. I mean, they don't >> For sure.

26:25>> Right. So, but like someone like Jack Hibbs or not you know, to call him out by name though uh he deserves it, but um >> [laughter] >> sorry, excuse me. Trying to stay Christian. Um does he get any pushback? Or do do or another way to ask would be do pastors like that have growing churches or shrinking churches? Like is this is Christian Zionism in retreat or is it expanding?

26:49>> I I can't speak empirically on that, but I would say it's retreating from from from just my my sphere of influence.

26:58You know, a lot of these churches now are their congregation shrinking and they have these huge buildings. So what they're doing is they're putting up curtains about halfway through the pews and and they shove everybody to the front so people can't sit in the back anymore. So they're starting to stack their churches if that makes sense and they look full but they're really at 20 30% capacity.

27:18>> Really?

27:19>> Mhm. And then what they do a lot of them do is on their social programs like we have we have a solid online presence. We will never delete a comment. We will never block someone unless they're actually threatening someone. But what these guys do a lot of times is they'll curate their comments. So they'll block us or block our followers and just delete any comment that has a negative you know, negative pushback on what they're saying. And so when you go on on some of these pastors Instagrams it's just nothing but hearts and loves and you're 100% accurate pastor lovely lovely lovely.

27:51But it's cuz they've just curated the content. And so Christianity institutional Christianity and these big organizations is just a curated business set on top of the gospel. And and so when I look at there especially Jack Hibbs and these other guys who are very pro-Zionist in regards to their agenda most of their comments are just curated and so that that always makes me smile because >> What does Jack Hibbs have a a congregation? Is there like a church where he's preaching every Sunday?

28:19>> Yeah, he's a preacher. Yeah.

28:21>> And is it a growing church do you know?

28:23>> I honestly I haven't done much research on Jack Hibbs. I just I just smile whenever I see his his social content.

28:28[laughter] We There's There's a lot of pastors out here Tucker. There's 400,000 churches in the US and so unfortunately I can't we can't look at them all. But what we're trying to do is we're we're looking at patterns right?

28:39We're recently someone sent me a book and and in the book they defined my character type and yours as an auditor basically. Like, you guys are here to audit the systems we've built, whether that be our government, whether that be our our religious institutions, and we're here to say, "Hey, what part of these systems isn't aligning with with the ethos underneath it?" So, in Christianity, what part of the machine that we've built, the tradition, isn't aligning with scripture?

29:06And the nation-state is one of those.

29:07You know, tithe is one of those. Running organizations with no external accountability where millions funnels in is one of those. None of that is is inherently biblical or Christ-like, right?

29:17>> Tithing is not scriptural.

29:19>> Tithing Tithing is not scriptural for a modern-day Christian.

29:23>> Huh.

29:24>> Yeah.

29:24>> So, where does the notion come from?

29:26>> Um it's it's actually only flared back in the last couple hundred years. So, tithing was not a thing. You can go through the the the history of Christianity from Christ from Christ on, and Christians weren't tithing.

29:38The And tithe literally means a tenth.

29:40Translates to a tenth.

29:42>> Yes.

29:42>> And so, most, not all, but a lot of chur- churches today and pastors today present that hey, you need to tithe.

29:49Give us 10% of your revenue because the Bible says to tithe. Well, the Old Testament, the Mosaic laws say to tithe, but what's funny is there's not one tithe in the Old Testament, there's three.

30:03So, if a tenth mean or if tithe means a tenth, technically you're supposed to be being paying three tenths. Now, the difference is the third tithe was only once every three years.

30:14So, there's three tithes. So, if you're a pastor out there preaching tithe, you need to be preaching 23.3%.

30:22from your congregation, not 10%, if you want to lean on the biblical tithe.

30:25But so, when you look at the tithe laws, Israel of the Bible is is a theocracy.

30:31So, those tithes were actually a form of taxation. It's what kept up government and religion. It was combined. Today, we're not a theocracy. We're we're a democratic republic. So, what the church has done is the recent church, the modern church in the last couple hundred years, is they needed to figure out a revenue stream.

30:49So, I'll get I'll say with good intentions, these pastors looked to the old covenant, the Old Testament, and said, "Hey, like the Levites were asking for 10% or demanding 10% based off based off the Mosaic Law, so we should ask for 10%."

31:04And it baked in this legalistic demand from your congregation. And then, hey, if you don't tithe, Tucker to me, you're a bad boy. The Bible says to tithe. But, when you look at the New Testament, remember Paul was a Pharisees' Pharisee. He was the man who knew the law better than anybody. So, Paul wrote a bulk of the modern New Testament. So, if Paul expected you to tithe, you better believe he would have said in his epistles, "Hey, Tucker, you're going to tithe to your body, and then we're going to distribute it." He didn't say that.

31:37Christ never said that. Instead, it was free will generosity. So, Tucker, you're going to give from the desire and passion of your heart. And you're not going to know what your left hand is doing or your right hand is doing because we don't want you to basically build systems on top of this generosity. And the crazy part about the New Testament generosity is when when these early churches would pool resources, it would always go to poorer gatherings, to poorer communities. They weren't insulating themselves and building corporations, they were just distributing it wherever there was a need.

32:09And so, what the tithe has done is in the last 200 years, is it's given us a fixed revenue stream to an institution, to a tradition we've built on top of Christ. And now that we've been taught we've been I've been taught I was taught tithing from childhood. Now that we've been taught this tithing model, they can't it'd be really bad for them to go, "Hey, actually the tithe really isn't isn't biblically accurate.

32:37We need you we need you just to be generous. And here this is a fun one.

32:41Or it's not fun. It's very sad. Um someone someone sent me this um and it's a it's a slip that a child brought home um and so this was going to a uh uh he was I think that the child was between 10 or 14 years old and this is what they were taught in their in their youth group. My commitment, I am expanding my generosity to multiply by committing to the following over the next year. So Tucker, you're a 12-year-old boy, ready?

33:12You're going to tithe, Tucker, 10% from your allowance.

33:17This is on the sheet, ready? You're going to give a percentage of your birthday money or Christmas money to the church.

33:22You're going to earn money, yard work, etc. And specifically, you're going to do that for multiplication. And then here's the other ready? You're going to sell some of your electronics. You're going to take clothes to a resale shop and you're going to give a portion of your savings to the church. This went to a little kid and at the bottom, you're going to add it all up and tell this church what your total commitment is.

33:44>> In writing.

33:45>> In writing.

33:47That went to a child.

33:51>> That is wild.

33:53>> Where is any of that scrip- scriptural?

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35:03>> So, what do the churches do with the money?

35:06Well, they they'll say they give some of it away, but statistically based off the financial by the financial data about um 70% just goes to buildings and salaries, and less than six six cents of every dollar ever leaves the institutional walls now.

35:22And so, what we've built is just traditions like it takes me back to the story of Christ in the temple. He you know, when he's when he's whipping and he said, "You've turned my father's house into a robbers' den." We've built institutions on top of the teachings of Christ, and that institution now is so hungry financially that it just pulls all resources in to the point where where you're telling kids to sell their electronics and give us the money. Hey, actually no, take your clothes to a thrift store and then bring us that money. Hey, you know, give a portion of your savings to us as well.

35:56Like you're you're you're you're >> You're the middle man.

35:58>> You're indoctrinating a child into this thinking.

36:02And none of that is is in the New Testament.

36:05>> Well, Jesus doesn't say sell everything you have and give it to the church. He says give it to the poor.

36:09>> Poor. Correct.

36:12So, what we've done is we've just built businesses, unaccountable, non-transparent businesses on the top of Christ, and then on the top of the scriptures.

36:19And when you look at what the church was in America, the church was actually the um the institution that pushed back against government encroachment. It pushed back against human greed. And it And it And it did, rightfully so. It was the community It was like the the community think tank, for lack of a better term. And this is We'll go to the socialist comment, right? So, I said last time Christianity is more socialist than capitalistic. America is our economy our economy is built on capitalism.

36:52A great social concept cuz it lifts people in in in nations out of poverty, but there is that marginalized that's left behind. Christianity is in that marginalized.

37:04That's why we pool our resources and give to the poor.

37:07And so, Christianity is not about ownership.

37:11Christianity is not about um growth and profits at all costs. Christianity is the opposite.

37:18And so, Christianity is is the hardline against power and against authority, but what's happened is we've taken those structures, those capitalistic structures, and brought it into the church.

37:30And brought it into an institution that is antithetical to that. And so now, the institutional church has been co-opted by the very mechanisms it's supposed to push against.

37:42All in the name of Christ. So, hey, bring more money. Hey, and it's been It's been co-opted by the politic now, too.

37:48And so, the church, the beautiful body of Christ, is now a um an MLM a multi-level marketing scheme, for lack of a better term. It's a franchise. You know, and you could see it play out. You know, a lot of a lot of as denominations die, evangelical non-denominational churches are flourishing. And so, what's happening is now they're building satellite campuses.

38:09So, it's like we're going to build as many campuses as possible. We're going to get you guys to turn and burn, so you're going to come in, you have an hour and a half, grab a coffee, grab a donut, we're going to sing some emotional songs, we're going to give you some a couple scripture verses, and then get out. We got to do it again. And so we franchised faith and we haven't franchised it in a good way either I feel. We franchised it in like a fast food way. Right? It's like the cheapest, fastest, quickest way to turn and burn this thing. And so what we've done is we've commoditized Christianity when it

38:40wasn't supposed to be commoditized. And now we've tribal we it's tribalism too.

38:45Now we're either right or left. So now it's you can see the politic grabbing on to it and weaponizing it as well.

38:51>> Are most churches pretty open about their politics now?

38:54>> Oh, very. Yeah.

38:55>> Really?

38:56>> Yeah, very.

38:58Well, the Johnson Amendment was supposed to like keep that at bay, but Trump basically wiped the Johnson Amendment out.

39:03>> What was the Johnson Amendment?

39:05>> The Johnson Amendment was you couldn't um I don't have the exact language, but you couldn't advocate for specific candidates from the pulpit.

39:13>> Yes.

39:14>> And so and and you'd get in trouble. You could potentially lose your tax exempt status if you did that. Well, Trump basically wiped that out. So what's happened is you literally have pastors from the pulpit and I and I've been to these churches saying exactly who you should vote for because there's no fear anymore about losing your tax exempt status. So the church, not all churches, but many churches, whether right or left, are just um champions for tribal party political parties at this point. And and like you're you'll be hard pressed to go to Actually, I would love anybody to DM us if you go to a church that doesn't

39:48preach tithe and doesn't preach politics from the pulpit. That you're going to be hard pressed to find a successful church doing that today.

39:56Yeah.

40:00>> I I've never seen that.

40:01>> Really?

40:02>> No.

40:02>> Oh, do you have Do you do you go to many big churches? Many like mega churches?

40:05Okay, well, that's a problem.

40:06>> Yeah.

40:07>> [laughter] >> That's that's the problem. Yeah, I go to a lot of them. That's that's what I visit.

40:11>> And they're open about this or that candidate?

40:13>> Oh, yeah.

40:14>> Yeah. They can't just say give to Caesar what Caesar's. They have to like >> Well, that's a funny one. Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and render to God the things that are God's cuz that's a that's an inflection point for the church, too.

40:26Right? Your your congregation pays taxes.

40:29But why do you why does the church have this interesting carve out where they don't pay tax?

40:34>> I don't know.

40:35>> Well, it's it's it goes back to 1913.

40:38And Yeah, the I said I we when we talked last, I talked about kind of the weaponization or the the box that churches climbed into, religious organizations climbed into, which is the 14-point checklist.

40:51The I think tax exemption was the carrot for them to climb in.

40:54It's say, "Tucker, we're going to give your church tax-exempt status. You don't have to pay taxes, but you're going to have to play by these rules."

41:00And so you climbed into the box, and now this box can be weaponized right or left.

41:05Now foreign agents can come in and just sell concepts to the box.

41:12If that makes sense. And hey, if I do anything wrong, if I don't live inside these 14 points, I might get kicked out of this box. Which which What is getting kicked out?

41:20Lose your tax-exempt status. Great. Who cares?

41:23Lose it.

41:24>> Are there churches that don't claim tax-exempt status?

41:27>> There's a couple. Yeah, very it's There's a [clears throat] I would love There's There's a new model that um You know, like I called us kind of auditors on systems. We don't get any We don't get anything perfect, but we we we're just trying to get things right, more Christ-like.

41:42>> Yes.

41:42>> And so I I don't only want to be an auditor, I want to be um a reformer. I want us to help usher in change that's more Christ-like. And so as we look at the system, there are legal structures that um hedge against man's evil hearts, for lack of a better term.

42:02We corrupt things.

42:04>> There's no better term.

42:04>> Yeah, thank you. [laughter] And so how I think it'd be really brilliant if we were honest enough with ourselves as Christians and as as leaders to be like, "Hey, let's build a system." And our founding fathers did this brilliantly.

42:14They're like, "Let's build a system that keeps it safe from ourselves."

42:18>> Exactly.

42:19>> And so, I think there's going to be a new wave of pastors and a new wave of Christian leaders that say, "How do we build a system cuz we do need a system that is protected from ourselves?"

42:29And I think it starts with uh open-source accounting.

42:33So, everybody can see where the money goes. And then there's legal architecture that you can play into that's not tax exemption. That doesn't have to do with tax exemption. That builds a better ecosystem for a transparent church. And that's what we're really what we're working on. We have some really cool stuff happening over the next few months because of that.

42:50>> God gave me a Ferrari.

42:52>> He gave his son, and you want to argue about 2%.

42:55>> Millions of Christians donate to their church every week. It's generous, and it goes to a nonprofit.

43:00>> another amen?

43:01>> Well, it turns out the nonprofit designation is one of the most powerful legal and financial protections in all American law.

43:07>> $53 billion is stolen every year.

43:11>> Mind your own business.

43:14>> In fact, some of the most powerful financial institutions in America are not banks, they are churches.

43:20>> In the for-profit world, if you went out and raised money for something like this and didn't build it, that would be called fraud. But in the religious world, we call it faith.

43:27>> Filmmaker Nathan Apffel set out to find out what is happening here.

43:31>> You have been warned for criminal trespass.

43:32>> You are being detained. [music] >> This is not a series that attacks faith.

43:36This is a series that attacks people who are using faith to get rich.

43:40>> At what point do we call this not only a business, but a straight-up scam?

43:45>> We have a new multi-part series called The Religion Business, and it covers it all. It's now available at tuckercarlson.com.

43:50>> I would assume all churches would have transparent accounting.

43:54>> No, very um as denominations, denominational structure, you you had to be transparent with the denomination, which is good. But as denominations die and non-denominationalism is rising, non-denominational churches are are accountable to no other church.

44:11Most usually. Some people will say, "Oh, no, this church has this pastor that's on my board."

44:16>> with >> Yeah, but it's like there's no handing over of P&L statements or budgets.

44:21Um So, what's happened is a lot of churches like there's a church in Florida, their budget is um 91 million a year.

44:28Their congregation gets a single sheet of paper with three little like three pie charts on it.

44:32>> [laughter] >> And it says, "Here's where your 91 million went."

44:35>> Where does it actually go, do you think?

44:37>> Uh like there's just buckets, you know, there's just massive buckets. 20 I I I don't have the the pie charts in front of me, but 27% goes to salary. Okay, well, what does the head pastor make?

44:46You don't need to know, Tucker.

44:47>> They don't tell you what the pastor makes?

44:50>> You don't know what the pastor makes?

44:51This is the crazy part is you don't know their retirement packages. And and I've I've heard about his retired this individual's retirement package.

44:58Um This church in particular uh we did a series of videos on because they took a PPP loan. A 1.7 million-dollar PPP loan in 2020. A few months later they bought a 12.7 million-dollar hunting ranch.

45:12And then a few months after that the PPP loan got forgiven and it was dumped on the American taxpayer.

45:18>> No. They forgave [clears throat] those loans?

45:20>> Mhm. And my question my only my question was, "Hey, is this Christ-like? To claim financial hardship, take a 1.7 million-dollar PPP loan as you're buying an almost 13 million-dollar property for the church that's not essential.

45:34And then you dump 1.7 million-dollars worth of debt on the American taxpayer?

45:39That doesn't sound very Christ-like."

45:42And I got eaten alive for that comment.

45:44>> What was Jesus's real estate portfolio?

45:46>> Huge.

45:47>> [laughter] >> The world.

45:50>> The son of man has no place to lay his head, I think he said. He had zero real estate portfolio. What kind of You got a negative reaction to that?

45:58>> Horrible.

45:58>> How?

45:59>> Yeah, because it goes back to Israel.

46:01This is a good correlation, actually.

46:03They said, "Nathan, look at how many baptisms they're doing. Look at how many salvations they're doing." And they go, "How dare you?" Quite And then one individual even put the the percentage of the total PPP loan forgiveness debt in a comment. He goes, "Nathan, this is all it is to the American public."

46:21He tried to rationalize it. He's like, "It's or whatever of the total PPP loan debt. So, why do you care?"

46:29And that is that is the the biggest issue I have with all of this is >> that reasoning justifies like, I don't know, shoplifting from a grocery store.

46:38They got tons of food.

46:39>> Exactly.

46:39>> What what percentage, if I steal this candy bar, what percentage of the total candy bar in Victoria's that? It's just zero point point point point.

46:45>> That sounds pretty Christ-like, right?

46:47>> [laughter] >> Oh, man. It's It's So, the But, here's the thing is an auditor, and I'm going to use this term, it's exhausting because there's just so much corruption in the system. And so, I'm really excited for the next 6 months because, okay, how do we become the leaders in the change? You know, and how do we show different models and say, "Hey, here's how we can do it different differently.

47:10Here's how we can build systems to protect it against ourselves."

47:12>> So, if you don't mind, will you describe the ideal model for an American church?

47:16>> I don't like where where >> Well, what would be a massive improvement?

47:20>> Um transparent accounting is is is base level step one. Like, your congregation, your donors should know where every dollar goes. And they should be able to ask. Your pastor's salary should be public knowledge. Just like if if I invest in a for-profit publicly traded company, I know those executive salaries. I know where the money goes.

47:40So, why should that I invest in that company? If I donate and fund this organization, I should know where the money goes as well.

47:48>> But, they don't disclose that.

47:49>> disclose that, no. Many churches do not.

47:52So, there's there's great I have a lot of friends in denominations. Methodist Methodist, Baptist, you know, and and their salaries are known for the most part. And so, I love it because it checks them at the door. There is that check if that makes sense. And my Methodist friends in Florida, you guys know who you are, like they're hilarious cuz they're bi-vocational.

48:10And they're like, "Nathan, half our pews are filled with drug addicts and homeless."

48:14You know, but we're on the front lines.

48:16And and their program is so awesome. And they basically turned their their church into a a co-op where all these community nonprofits can thrive and encourage each other and and they've just given parts of the building to the nonprofits and it's become this community hub and I'm like, "Oh, Jesus is right here. I feel you know, I feel him." And you got you got homeless people coming and getting meals. You have um uh handicapped children in the little school there. It's beautiful. You know, and then you have people in the community packaging up food and I'm like, "Oh, I feel it. I feel the work, you know."

48:47And uh and then I walk into a a church where I don't know the pastor's salary, where he just acquired a $12.75 million hunting ranch. And um and I'm like, "Okay, I'll grab a donut and a cup of coffee and see the performance." And usually the performance is on the projector screen.

49:03I don't even see him in person.

49:05>> Really?

49:06>> Mhm. Yeah.

49:08>> And no one knows what his salary or retirement package is.

49:11>> Well, I'm sure a few people on the elder board do.

49:14But yeah, it's um >> What would happen if a church just declined nonprofit status?

49:20>> I think that's the most brilliant option out there.

49:22Uh because what it does is it it holds you liable to the Fed and the state.

49:26Um you're rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. And uh then you're not liable to get in that box.

49:34I think it'd be a like I think it'd be a really fun experiment. All of this is an experiment, right? America is an experiment, a governing experiment. Our our institutions that we've built on top of Christ, those are just experiments.

49:44Those are traditions of men.

49:46And when we can see it for that, and that's not doctrine, then we can audit the the experiments and say, "Where are we failing?

49:53And I think a really cool experiment would be to start a church as a for-profit vehicle. And here's a great example. If if the religion business takes off and we're doing season 3 and 4 and we keep going as we reform the system, we'll need a space eventually to build our sets out because our sit sets are sitting in storage right now. And we're talking about internally, okay, how does our for-profit business help the community? Well, all of a sudden we have warehouse space. Let's hold a church. Let's hold a gathering. I hold two a week right now. One's in my house and I'm like, well, we could make

50:24it a little bigger and we don't even need to ask people for money cuz God's blessed us with the space. You know, we could we could start a church organically like that to where a for-profit vehicle funds the ability to hold church.

50:35To hold the gathering if that makes sense. So, why don't people do it?

50:39I think it's just >> [sighs] >> nonprofits status is a really easy thing to grab. You know, in 1913 when the nonprofits sector was carved out, there was 12,000 organizations. Today there's 1.9 million nonprofits. So, you say, "Okay, Tucker, well, you know, population expansion."

50:56Well, the population only expanded to 4.3% in the last 110 years. So, you do the math, that would put put us around 65,000 organizations. So, you ask you have to ask, "Why is there a gap from 65,000 organizations to 1.9 million?"

51:11The sector just exploded and it's because there's less accountability in the legal architecture. And then religious exemptions are just completely dark.

51:20And what I mean by that is they file no 990 with the IRS.

51:24They file very few documents with the state. And so, the church, the institution which is supposed to be the beacon of light, plays in the darkest legal architecture there is in the US.

51:33And it's just become status quo. Now it's like, "Hey, let's start a church."

51:37And now what's cool is not what's cool, it's I shouldn't say that, it's very pathetic, is certain denominations have lobbied the government over the last 50 years to add add vocabulary in front of the word church.

51:48So now, if I have a church that's not a nonprofit that that has religious exemption, so I don't file a 990, I can start acquiring for-profit companies and pulling them under my church banner as a church.

51:59So I can have an investment fund registered as a church. I can have a TV network registered as a church. I can have a radio station registered as a church. I can take almost any vehicle, any any legal for-profit business and bring it under my church, and it gets to reclassify as a church.

52:16You have organizations like Compassion International, um Ravi Zacharias Ministries. These These organizations used to file 990s cuz they were regular nonprofits, and they reclassified as a church. So it means they no longer had to file 990s.

52:30>> You can do it with any business?

52:32>> If you have a church, you can you can you can bring it under your fold as what's called an auxiliary, a convention, or association. There's different classifications.

52:41And you can basically build a conglomerate as a church. So a thrift store. That same That same same church in Florida has a thrift store. A thrift store is registered as a church.

52:52It files no 990s. You're selling clothes. Well, let me rephrase that.

52:55You're taking clothes for free, washing them and then selling them as opposed to just giving them away to people who need clothes, but you're making a profit off of that. But why would a thrift store be registered as a church?

53:07So you can start building these businesses, these conglomerates, and all under the banner of one church.

53:13>> And none of them pay taxes.

53:14>> None of them No, they they do not pay taxes. Um and what's crazy is that same church, they have a a new uh business, relatively new. It's It's basically a consulting firm to build your church.

53:26So Tucker, you you can hire my consulting firm, and I'm going to teach you how to build your church. I'm going to give, you know, lay it out for you, talk about the screens and everything.

53:33That's registered as a church as well.

53:36So a consulting firm to teach you how to build a building is registered as a church. So that means it files no 990s, no one knows what people are making at the executive level. It's just the like religion is the organized organized non-profit religious exemptions are the perfect vehicle to just abuse the system.

53:55I'm not saying everybody's doing that, but I'm saying the legal architecture is the perfect vehicle for abuse.

53:59>> The Mormon the LDS Church, Mormon Church, um is one of the biggest land owners in the United States.

54:06>> Yeah, they were the second largest private land owner. They might be the first now.

54:09>> Oh.

54:10>> Yeah.

54:10>> So what Like how big is the enterprise and what's its purpose?

54:15>> The LDS Church?

54:16>> Yeah.

54:17>> Uh the LDS Church is their net assets are about 350 billion um billion with a B.

54:23Um they have they have over 300 billion in the market just invested. Uh through a through a hedge fund called Ensign Peak Advisors. They'll hit a trillion dollars if they continue the growth rate. They'll hit a trillion dollars in net assets in the next 15 years. And the crazy part about the LDS Church is they make so much profit in the market. They made 25 billion last year in interest alone in the market. The entire global LDS Church costs around 7 billion dollars to run.

54:54So that means they could fund the church in perpetuity just off a percentage of the interest they make in the market, but they still demand that their congregants give them 10% a year. And they'll push Mormon my my Mormon my my Mormon friends are going to push back and say Nathan like hey, you know, we we don't have it's not a demand. Yes, it is cuz you don't get to get into your celestial kingdom unless you pay your tithe your 10% your tithe.

55:20And so they could cut off they could say hey guys, stop giving to us right now, give to the community, give to people in need. Take that 10% and give to people in need, but they don't. They say give it to us still.

55:32And they could fund the church in perpetuity just off a percentage of the >> they doing? the point of all this?

55:39There I'll I'll argue for them. They're going to say, "Nathan, you know, Joseph in Egypt, he stockpiled for 7 years for the 7-year famine. That's what we're doing."

55:49Well, you've stockpiled indefinitely.

55:51Like you you you could fund the church indefinitely just off the interest. So, I don't know what they're doing. That would be their only rationale, but I see it is it's like the Lord of the Rings, right? There's the shiny ring. Like they their hedge fund is their ring, and they just can't give it up.

56:05And so, it's just it's just growing.

56:08>> Do pastors actually get rich doing the job? Are there some who do?

56:11>> Oh, yeah, for sure.

56:13Yeah, um Kenneth Copeland, I've seen estimates.

56:16No one knows what they're No one knows the exact number because it's it's it's not salaries aren't known, but some estimates Kenneth Copeland is worth 700 million, around 700 million.

56:26Yeah.

56:29>> Is that I mean, that's I mean, since Jesus does say it's harder for rich man to get into heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle, but possible.

56:37>> Yeah.

56:38>> Uh that seems like very obviously the wrong path for a Christian church.

56:44>> 100% Well, there's a there's a beautiful part of the New Testament where Paul defines leadership qualifications. Yes.

56:51And lover of money is is one of them.

56:53You cannot be a lover of money. You need to live modestly, right? And it's like it's painted in there. And there are amazing pastors and shepherds out there that live by that standard.

57:03But there's this growing number In in a In again, it goes back to that socialist comment. When we see Christianity as a capitalistic venture and we build businesses on top of Christ with capitalism in mind, that's what happens.

57:18>> It does say I mean, this is as someone who loves America and is very pro-America, it pains me to say this, but I do think that Christianity as a religious faith as the, you know, the key to eternal life as is something bigger than any nation state, even your own.

57:35>> Mhm.

57:36>> And so you probably want to keep your religion from becoming infected by cultural assumptions that are just by definition bound to a time and place.

57:43Like this is about eternity, right?

57:45>> Yeah.

57:46>> And to what extent do you think So that's my preface just to let This is not an anti-American statement at all. I love America, but I don't want Christianity to reflect America. I want Christianity to change America.

57:56>> Uh Amen. And Chris- Again, Christianity was the hardline against corruption.

58:02Like like the church was supposed to be the antithe- like the antithesis of corruption and instead the system and this is I I really want people to ask why has it corrupted is the the institutional model has corrupted to mirror our corruption in government.

58:18They run simultaneously now. The government says, "We're going to collect taxes, you know, and you're going to give it to us and with these with these with these massive bills you're never going to going to know where the spending goes. You just got to give us more money." The churches are doing the same thing.

58:32They're saying, "Hey, you're going to give us your money, we're going to build the system, you got to trust us, and now we're going to start petitioning your kids to go sell their electronics to give us, you know, >> [laughter] >> To give it to us?

58:41>> To give it to us in the name of Jesus, you know.

58:44It's just it's such a sad spot to be right now to look at to look at the body of Christ that I love and it's just I always use the analogy we've built a tradition, we've built an institution, an expensive machine, a a consumerist machine that entertains us and keeps us fed, but that institution has chained chained us to the pews financially.

59:07Cuz if we leave, if you actually if you actually preached this whole book in its entirety, a lot of people would get up and leave.

59:14Because they'd be called to go out.

59:16They'd say, "Hey, God's calling me to do this other thing." Yeah. But but with that goes my money and my time and my attention.

59:24And so the the model we've built is actually antithetical to the calling in the in in the Gospels.

59:32>> So, the theology that these churches preach serve serves the church, not the kingdom of God.

59:38>> I've Yes, and I've said one statement that people have hung me for. I've said anybody who plays in this system for a full career gets eaten by the system.

59:46And and you've nailed that. When you play for the institution, when you are on stage and you have this $70 million a year operating cost, your message, your your theology, everything you preach, from giving kids sheets on how to give you more money, shifts to build and calcify the machine we've built on top of Christ.

60:06>> makes total sense.

60:07>> And and I've I've talked to amazing pastors who've just been eaten by the machine. And then the good ones, here's the sad part, as the big ones grow, they drain resources from the small churches that are actually still embedded in the community doing the good work. And a lot of those small ones shut down.

60:22Statistically right now, church closure is out pacing church expansion, and the churches that are closing are the small ones.

60:30And those small churches are the backbone of their local communities.

60:34And so, when I say uh all pastors who play by the system die by the system, even the even the good ones get eaten by the system, because the big church gobles up their congregation and gobles up the resources that funded this beautiful small community church.

60:50>> Is anyone pointing any of this out? Do you feel like a voice in the wilderness?

60:55>> I did for a couple years. Um but but I think our message is starting to resonate, and there's other there's other watchmen on the wall, so to speak.

61:04Um that's in Ezekiel, I think Ezekiel 3.

61:07>> So, there's clearly a a religious revival going on in the United States, a Christian revival. Where are people going?

61:15>> That's That's a really good question. I think people are searching. They don't know There There's some go to the mega church, some hopefully go to scripture and just sit quietly and read scripture and pray.

61:25>> Yes.

61:25>> Um my my encouragement would be to go go find a small church in your area.

61:32>> Yeah.

61:32>> Like that church needs your help. Those smaller pastors that that are often bi-vocational because even their even their congregation can't fund a full-time salary, go support them with your time, with your with your talent, with your with your resource.

61:45Like those small ones and and and and ironically with the small ones need your help.

61:51It's like they need you to to help with the kids.

61:53>> So bi-vocational means the the pastor is a carpenter, roofer, or >> Yeah.

61:59>> 100%.

62:00>> Yeah.

62:00>> And that's with the beautiful pastors that I've sat with cuz I've sat with probably a thousand plus pastors around the US at this point over the last 5 years is the bi-vocational ones are usually the ones preaching the the the most biblical theology.

62:13>> that. Yes, I've noticed that.

62:15>> Because their salary, their livelihood, their the food that sits in front of their kids is not dependent on this book.

62:22>> was Paul's model. He you know, the first great evangelist was making tents.

62:26>> Yeah. Well, and there's a there and you know, it's the Bible speaks about hey, if you if you make your living from from the gospel, you have your reward.

62:34You've been paid You've been paid your reward.

62:37And and I I want my my reward to be upstairs, you know.

62:41>> How do you the big denominations you think are less corrupt?

62:45>> No.

62:47The big I I wouldn't say that. The big denominations just have hierarchical oversight on the on the financials. And so um it used to it it does it does bring some accountability to the system, but it's not it's not quality accountability, but there is some structure.

63:04Um like Method- Methodists, for example, you know um what your Methodist pastor makes.

63:09It's a baseline. And so you you're not joining the Methodist church to get rich.

63:14>> [laughter] >> Well, you're not No.

63:16>> But like Baptists have slipped a bit, you know? I know I know Baptist pastors that are very well off, you know? And >> How?

63:24>> Um just cuz they've kind of taken the non-denominational model.

63:30Uh a great example is there's a there's a a massive church. And And here's another example to the capitalist mindset. We remember when we talked about franchises, like Christianity's almost becoming franchises. So, when you bring really smart businessmen and women into leadership of these churches, they bring their capitalist business mindset into the machine.

63:49And it it's corrupting the machine. And what I mean by that is I'm going to give two examples. There's a There's a a very large church in Houston. Are you familiar with Second Baptist, right? So, that's a billion-dollar enterprise that's been funded by Houstonians for almost 100 years.

64:05So, local Houston Christians generously gave to build this tradition, this awesome tradition. It's a school, it's a church, it's a lot of things. But, now it's all that power's been consolidated into six people's hands. And they can decide what to do with that billion in assets. They can move it out of state. They can sell off parts of it. And so, what I mean by that is when we franchise out Christianity, the resources don't stay in the town that funded it.

64:32And a great example is there's this small church in Sarasota that I visited, and it was acquired by a church in Dallas.

64:39And so, these individuals in Sarasota funded this building for years.

64:43And now the church in Dallas can just sell it off whenever it wants, and all that resource heads to Dallas.

64:49And so, the people in Sarasota, the Christians in Sarasota gave generously, and that's what I mean is all money and resource ends up siloing at the top now.

64:57>> Why would a church in Dallas want a church in Sarasota?

65:00>> I've got my opinion. I I think it's to justify the beachfront home in Florida.

65:05>> [laughter] >> Wow.

65:06>> Yeah. But, but so, the the what I'm seeing is and what we're seeing is money's siloing at a national level.

65:12and then what does that mean? It means you can all of a sudden these national groups and these these these big conglomerates become what like become political apparatus basically.

65:23>> a surprising but I guess not really surprising to learn that what's happening to every other part of our society is happening to churches where your vet is now owned by some private equity concern out of New York and your stores in your town are gone because of Amazon and Walmart and like it it just the big things get bigger the small things disappear.

65:44>> We call it the Walmart effect in the religion business. When a mega church moves into a a town it it has to find consumers somewhere.

65:51>> Yes.

65:52>> So it looks so that it attracts you know there's everybody's not Christian.

65:55There's only so many Christians in in your town. So what happens is the the mega church draws Christians and consumers from the small churches, entertains them and bedazzles them and gives them a good sprinkle donut and then the small churches close and what happens is usually the Walmart moves on the mega church corrupts is usually a sex scandal or a financial scandal that shuts down and then there's no small churches anymore which were the backbone of the community.

66:21And so the Walmart effect is in full effect. And there again, I don't want to just be an auditor. There's there's beautiful reform on the horizon because I'm seeing home churches spring up all over the all over the US. I'm seeing people actually go back to the small churches in their community because they're looking for authenticity. The the non-denominational kid me who who ran around on stage and did every you know goofy thing my church would put on and I had a great time is I'm I love exploring Catholicism and and Orthodoxy and I call it the kaleidoscope of Christianity because I want to see where

66:59every denomination um thrives and then where I think theological pinch points are cuz then I can build my own perspective on this on this book and now my faith is my own if that makes sense and so I love going to small churches now. Um it's kind of like my my jam.

67:15>> [laughter] >> Well, they're great.

67:16>> Yeah.

67:17>> They're great. I've been to Yeah, regularly been to a church with three other people.

67:21>> Mhm. And I'll tell you this the I I get arrested at at big churches. I get kicked out of big churches even when I'm just going to visit without cameras. If I just want to go see sit, but I have never had a bad experience ever at a small [laughter] church.

67:34>> agree.

67:35>> I usually have people come up and they're like, "Oh, you're the religion business guy." And they like hug me or want to you know, want to sit with us and it's it's awesome. And they're like, "Oh, you're great. Cool. Awesome."

67:44>> That's >> Yeah.

67:45>> So, last question which is like a big question. Well, it's a small topic, but I think it's a metaphor and it's about the treatment of Palestinian Christians which is how I got into all this drama in the first place because I just noticed that Christians in the United States some of whom loved Israel and that didn't bother me at all.

68:01>> Mhm.

68:01>> But we're going out of their way to ignore what was happening to their brothers in Christ in the Middle East and I was offended by that. And so began all of this, but um is that changing?

68:13Are you seeing greater concern from Christian churches about what's happening to Christians in the Middle East the Holy Land?

68:20>> I wouldn't I wouldn't say it it's changing at the the institutional level.

68:24It's changing at the individual >> Is it?

68:26>> I think it is. Yeah. I I have um so many healthy conversations with my Christian brothers and sisters um about this topic in particular.

68:36And uh people are just Christians are waking up.

68:40And they don't really know where to go.

68:41>> Right.

68:42>> it's it's when the scales fall off for the first time you're looking around and you're like, "Whoa.

68:46This is far more beautiful and far more complex than I realized."

68:50>> But it's um we as Christians can just look to the scripture and look to the Bible and say this is our road map. And that's it. And God will walk us out. And so I do think at the institutional level I haven't seen change, but at the individual level, I've seen massive massive theological change over the last couple of years.

69:08>> Really?

69:08>> Mhm.

69:08>> And who's leading that?

69:10>> Um >> Or people just independently coming to >> I'm going to say watchman on the wall.

69:14Like there's there's a lot of people out there that are digging and then they'll put their they'll put their research online. They'll put it on social media.

69:22Um they'll reach out to us. I'm I'm just one of many. We're just one of many that are starting to um pick up the Bible and say let's read this cover to cover and >> It used to be that the critics of Christian churches in the United States of their corruption, of their scandals were all anti-Christian.

69:38>> Mhm.

69:39>> So it was a way to undermine it. You know, the Boston Globe with its Spotlight series. You really got the sense like they just hate the Catholic Church for other reasons.

69:47Which I think is true, but um now you're seeing criticism of this kind of behavior, of church behavior from people who are mad because they're really sincere Christians.

69:56>> Mhm. And I even have massive like I There's a pastor who's been on your show. Uh great guy. He's a good friend of mine. And uh we're developing a relationship and he he he's he's he works at a very large church, one of the biggest in the US. And he none of what I say scares him. He's like, I agree with everything.

70:14>> Really?

70:15>> Yeah. And I'm like, awesome. So even even at the pastoral level, there's starting to be a shift where they're like, we should be the beacon of truth [laughter] and the beacon of light and transparency.

70:25>> Yes.

70:26>> And so I think there's going to become a tipping there's going to be a tipping point in the next 6 to 12 months where the whole machine the apparatus starts steering away.

70:33>> Well, Sue, to me it's a tip-off is defensiveness.

70:37>> Mhm.

70:37>> We're all defensive when called out on what we're doing wrong. I certainly am.

70:41But we're not supposed to be.

70:42>> Yeah.

70:43>> And we're number one called to humility.

70:45That's like the >> Mhm.

70:46>> ticket price for admission, I think is you know, we're screwed up and need help.

70:51>> Mhm.

70:51>> That's why we're here.

70:52>> Yeah.

70:52>> So to hear that people are willing to acknowledge what they're doing wrong without being defensive seems like the best sign ever.

71:00>> It's I'm really excited and I think could you and I both agree that we sit here as as men who are evil like at our core and Christ gave us the example to chase after and I think if we can get more people around the table with that as the baseline then we can look at the institutions my own institutions the the corporation that we built on top of the religion business we're looking at cuz we're like is this the best vehicle like to do what we need to do we don't think it is right we want to be we want to be the beacon of transparency so >> Do you ever go to an AA meeting?

71:34>> No.

71:35>> You got to go to an AA meeting. You don't need to be an alcoholic to to enjoy the beauty of an AA meeting. I don't want to drink but I still like I love AA meetings because the the price of being able to speak is admitting in public how screwed up you are and it just changes the vibe completely. Like there's no hierarchy at all.

71:55>> Yeah.

71:55>> The one thing that unites every person in the room is their common flaw.

71:58>> Mhm. Yeah.

71:59>> And it's that's the basis of like truth and love right >> So what happens if the church took that model and said okay let's all gather around this table we're we're all POS's let's just admit that okay how do we fix this right how do we fix what we've built I think it would be the most collaborative um fulfilling experience for >> agree.

72:19>> pastors big pastors alike.

72:21>> I totally agree.

72:23>> So let's get that together up.

72:24>> You should go to an AA meeting and and I don't go often enough but occasionally I go and there's like there's always the guy who's like still shaking you know he's just got off it and then there's the guy who's you know been off for 40 years and he's like got his life together he's maybe rich and they're exactly the same.

72:40>> Yeah.

72:40>> As people as we all are every person is united in >> Well that's why Christ crushed hierarchies.

72:46>> Exactly.

72:48>> He's like all all of you guys are the same there's no hierarchy except the father we got one good teacher, you know, and it's but we've built hierarchies again on top of Christ. I I I say, um, you know, prior to the Reformation, there was one church, this monarchical Roman Catholic Church. And the Reformation, Calvin, Zwingli, you know, Luther, they came in and they they the leaders of the the the leaders of the Reformation really shook the church.

73:11And all we did though, they didn't shake they shook everything except one thing.

73:15They didn't shake the institutional structure.

73:19And so what happened was, the Reformation came through, they broke the stained glass, they burned cathedrals down, you know, they're like, "We're going to do it differently," which was awesome, good intention. But as they came over to America, we just built the same structure again. We built a non-transparent, unaccountable, financially hungry machine with usually one person at the head.

73:40So, I always tell people we have 400,000 mini Vaticans in America now. There's 400,000 estimated 400,000 churches.

73:46We've just built 400,000 mini Vaticans.

73:49Right? And so we just built hierarchy again.

73:52And it's like, "No, we got to we got to crush all of them."

73:54>> I agree.

73:55>> I agree with that. I agree with that absolutely vehemently. Thank you for this film and for all the work that you've done on it.

74:00>> Thank you for having me, Tucker.

74:01>> On this topic, despite the abuse you've taken.

74:04>> Yeah. Thank you.