0:01contrast of that he's been through the worst, the worst pain, the worst abject poverty. And so when he's working for us, he's like, "Man, I'm making bank."
0:09[laughter] He's he's stoked.
0:11>> That was the only good thing that happened with the Discovery Channel thing when they came down was like they said, "What does your boat driver get paid a day?" And I just went, "$100 a day for six weeks." And they the boat driver gets paid in the Amazon.
0:25The boat driver gets paid like $10 a day. So I was like when I told him I was like you're going to be making $100 a day which is like 360 soles a day for six weeks. He he looked at me and he went how [laughter] how is that possible?
0:39>> I was like don't worry about it. He's like just if they ask you just just nod.
0:44>> God damn. Well, we've been putting it off and and I do want to get to it now because I've known for months we're doing this podcast obviously and >> you were doing another podcast before this, so I I didn't want to check that out and see what's what. I kind of want to be surprised by it myself. But you and I have had some baseline conversations over the past like probably 13 14 months about the Narcos problem.
1:07>> But to go all the way there now that you're telling the story and it's public, >> let's just start at the beginning.
1:15These narcos you speak of, who are they associated with? When did you first notice them? And when did you realize it was going to be an enormous [ __ ] problem?
1:23>> The narcos, first of all, in the entire time, basically for the entire trajectory of this book, it's like when I went down to the Amazon, started learning from JJ, it was we're in deep wilderness. Then we saw the smoke on the horizon, and we started protecting it.
1:37Then we started turning the loggers and the gold miners into conservation rangers. That was the start of Jungle Keepers. But we could do that because JJ could go talk to the loggers and the gold miners and they were people that like friends of his brothers, friends of his fathers, local people who were just like, "My best option is to be a logger.
1:53My best option is to be a minor." We were like, "You want a better job?" And they were like, "Sure." But we could go talk to them. And so one of the things we would always do is fly the drone over and just sort of scout and see like how many of them are there. You know, because you do have to be careful, right? It's not without risk. you've been to the edges of some of these clearings and and so on this about about two years ago we saw this huge clearing spring up overnight on the side of the river above the reserve which was horrifying because we said wait a second how did this happen >> we thought it was safe and now this this
2:26huge clearing I'm talking about like six football fields long along the edge of the river which is devastating >> burnt to the ground and so we went up one day and we had JJ me some of the staff. We even had donors with us. And I fly the drone up over the canopy and then down into the burnt area. And every time I fly the drone into a deforested area, the loggers do the same thing. The loggers see the drone and then they run into their huts. And they're just like little corrugated steel huts or thatched huts. They will run into the huts because they know the the drone has a camera on it. They don't want to be
3:01seen. They hide.
3:05>> They ran the this time. We flew the drone. It gets down low. People run into the huts. And we just we passed where the huts were. We had just gone up river of the huts. And all of a sudden, the people come back out with guns.
3:20And so I have the drone in the air and this is like a really nice cinematic drone. You're talking about multi,000 drone. And JJ goes, "Go." As they're running for their boat. So they're not running away. They're coming at us. And so JJ tells we tell the driver, "Gun it." Thank god we had a 60 horsepower.
3:37They had a 40 horsepower. But they're coming behind us and I have the drone in the air and we're flying the drone again. We have civilians on the boat at this point. Yeah. We have donors. We're people that were coming. They wanted to see they wanted to see the land that they had protected. And so down where we do the ecoourism stuff where the treehouse is and like where you stayed, it's safe down there. We're talking about 6 hours up river. Totally different part of the river.
3:59>> And so now we're all the way up there.
4:00And now we can't even go down river cuz we're above where the narcos were camped. And so we're driving up river, the drone is in the air, and the the the the clients are picking up on it because they're like, "Hey, this this whole Pirates of the Caribbean chase thing, like, what are they going to do if they get to us?" And I was like, "This happens all the time. They're just mad.
4:18They just want to yell at us and like you can see them with shotguns. Like they're not joking." And JJ was like, "Oh, it's okay." He's like, "This happens all the time." And then he looked at me and he was like, "Not good.
4:28We're going as fast as we can. Drones in the air." And and then you you know I'm going okay this is again this is like a $5,000 drone. We cannot stop. So I raced the drone ahead on the last 2% battery it had. I just found like a tree there.
4:41I was like I'll recognize that tree and just crash the drone. Leave it. Forget the drone. We kept driving and we had a sec. We'd been working with the Peruvian police to [snorts] try and investigate this area where this huge clearing was.
4:54>> How helpful is that? You're so deep in the Amazon. Like >> we have been providing them with boats.
4:58We have been helping them with gasoline.
5:00we have been providing as much support as we can. They don't have the funding, but they have the will to protect. And so we said, "Look, there's this huge patch of deforestation. We need you up there." And it just so happened that they were up there. We've been working with these guys for weeks, become friends with them. And so, as this boat is chasing us, and we can't stop, we show up at an outpost where we have police that are friendly to us, that are posted there because of us. We get there and we go, "Look what's coming up river." And our friends, we the guy Jonathan was running the team that day.
5:29He, you know, we get up there, we shake hands, everybody, they look down river and you see this narco boat coming up river straight towards us and they were like, "Let's go." They got on the thing, they called back, they got on the Starlink, they called for support. They all put on ski masks, loaded up, got on our boat, and then we turned our boat right around and drove straight towards them cuz now we're armed to the teeth.
5:48Now we outgun them. And of course, their boat turned around immediately and went down river. And so we got a police escort all the way back down to the station. Great. Now we're getting off the boat and again me and JJ kept the whole situation even though there was guns and everything. We're like, "Hey, look, we're just used extra precautions.
6:06We're just trying to keep it. We're totally, you know, who wants coffee?
6:09Everybody want coffee? Everything's fine. We can't go see the land today, but we could try it another day. You know, everything's okay." You know, professional faces all around. And then um I shook hands with all the cops, you know, ski masks off now. I said, "Guys, good job. Get back up river. You only got you only got another hour or two a day like get back up river. Get safe.
6:28Thank you for saving our asses." You know, shook Jonathan's hand, shook a bunch of other people's hands. And uh they went up and then I'm at the station now where the staff is cooking for the clients and we're talking about how to protect the river and my phone keeps buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing. I'm like, "What?" You know, I look at it and it's Stefan again and again and again and again. I'm like, "Not now." Like I'm working right now. I'm like hanging out with everybody.
6:52>> Stfan is the cherry board.
6:54>> Yeah.
6:54>> Context out there.
6:55>> And uh he's like, "Right now. Right now." Phone. And I pick up and when the cops got back up to their outpost, they figured the action was over for the day. And they were cleaning themselves in the river and they didn't necessarily hear it as the boat came around the bend. And then they see a boat coming around the bend.
7:19It's got a driver and it's got another person and it still didn't seem like a threat. And then right as the boat passed them, somebody popped up with a shotgun and shot Jonathan straight in the [ __ ] chest.
7:29So I get the phone call, the man whose hand I just shook, who saved our asses today, is dead.
7:42>> So that day we realized everything changed. It had been like 2022, 2023, 2024. It been like this this sense of of success and building and we're going to do this and it's going to be great. And then if it was if it was a movie, it was like this montage of of hope and and in increasing capability and then with a gunshot that all ended. All of a sudden we got plunged into danger land where it was we we said, "Wait a second. What what like it hadn't even occurred to us that this was possible."
8:11And then all of a sudden our friend is gone. Just period gone. And now there's people on the river. And then in the preceding weeks, the police happened to arrest somebody that was on the periphery of this and they confiscated his cell phone. And his cell phone said, "If you find the Miera Gringo Bolad drone, if you find the [ __ ] gringo that flies the drone or Juan Julio Doran, if you find either of those and you can kill them, we'll reward you.
8:35>> So then we had an official hit out on us.
8:38>> What goes through Now we talked about fear earlier. What goes through your head? Because like this this is a these are the worst people in the world. These are >> Yeah.
8:47>> These are traffickers, you know.
8:49>> These are bad people. Okay, so this is the thing. These are like artisal cocaine growers, right? So these are people that are out in the middle of nowhere and they go, "Well, it's really remote out there and they're talking to their brother or their cousin or their friend and they're going, "Look, if we go out there, we could grow some coke for a few, you know, we can just cut down some forest. No one will know cuz in the middle of nowhere, we'll grow some stuff. We'll get a few bags of powder and then we'll sell it and it'll be bang for us." And like and this is the way they think. We'll just do it
9:12again next year.
9:13>> And that's their whole business plan, right? So they're desperate, too. But in that narco culture is that violent streak where it's like if we get caught, we're going to go to jail. We're not going to jail. So we'll shoot you first.
9:24And so it's not like the loggers. The loggers, it's kind of like it's more of an innocent sort of Robin Hood thing.
9:29It's like you catch us, we get fined, we go to jail for two weeks, we come out.
9:32It's like it's it's much more the nar the thing is the threat level increased and we didn't realize it. The cops didn't realize it. Nobody realized it.
9:41[clears throat] And now we have a dead friend.
9:43>> And this is the end of 2024.
9:46>> This is the or beginning 2025.
9:48>> This is last year in April, maybe. This is >> Oh, so you called me right after this. I didn't realize that cuz that's when you first told me about this.
9:58>> Yeah.
9:59>> Was like the end of April.
10:00>> Yeah. And then and then weeks after that happened, you know, they basically said to me, they said, "You got to get out of here." They said, "You're way too recognizable." They said, "Even if we put you >> Who told you that?
10:10>> The cops."
10:10>> The cops.
10:11>> I mean, now then we had to work with the security team. We had to then we then we have sec Now when I'm there, I have a a security detail >> to this day.
10:18>> Yeah. Yeah.
10:18>> And is it is it the Peruvian cops?
10:21>> Yes. And if I want to buy a banana, I have to be like, "Everybody up. We're walking to the market. Six people on either side of me. There's two other guys spotting." And so now I've gotten to the point where if I want to go buy a banana, I go, "Guys, could you just get me a banana? It's easier than going anywhere because to mo to mobilize a team of people and cars and thing and also it's just it takes the fun out of going anywhere to be um >> that's got to annoy the [ __ ] out of you.
10:46>> Not just annoy the [ __ ] out of me, but it's it's it's also um it's really dark.
10:51The idea of that someone's going to come and try to shut you off and you don't you might not even see it coming.
10:57>> That's horrifying. That I feel fear for.
11:00That is very scary. And that fear was realized on the day that JJ, you know, the way we leave the station, you know, we you leave the station by boat and then you get to the edge of this this road, this logging road, and then you take the logging road back to town. The logging road meets up at the Trans Amazon Highway and then goes back to town. And so me and JJ all the time take we do it almost every, you know, once a week we go back to town. We take the take the river down to the logging road. Our car meets us there and then the car takes us back to the nearest city. And so I had just been told that I
11:33couldn't be in Peru anymore and so I'd come home. And JJ left the station and came down the river and reached the dirt road where he saw the driver named Percy. Our driver's name is Percy and he has a toy the Hilux. And so JJ went, "Oh, you know what?" He goes, "We should have gone and walked the trail and figured out the saying he goes, "You know, I need one more day in the jungle." Just, he just happened to change his mind and he said, "You know what? Take the garbage back to town.
12:01Come back, pick me up tomorrow, and then I'll spend a few days in town." Made a last minute decision. Percy's driving our pickup truck down the road. And they had downed trees. They had cut some trees across the road and there was armed men in masks that put guns, pistols in the windows. They pulled him out and we have tinted back windows. And he said that while he was on his knees, they were like, "Open the back. get Paul and JJ out. They were fully intending on executing us right there. And then when we weren't in the car, they roughed him up and they took his wallet and they took his cell phone and they had him on
12:33the ground with a gun against his head and they said, "Where's Paul and JJ?"
12:37And he, you know, he said, "I have no idea who that is." And they said, "Don't [ __ ] with us. We know exactly who you are. You know exactly who we are." And they said, "Just tell them they got lucky today. They're not going to get lucky again." And so he came back shaking. And when that news hit us then it was it got really ugly.
12:53>> How long after April was that?
12:55>> I don't know a month or two weeks later.
12:59>> Are are you worried though about them coming to the research station and where you are? I mean they know where it is.
13:05>> No. Also now at the research station they would have to have a they would have to have an army to get into the you know because we're very well protected now.
13:15>> We've we have we have risen to the threat level now. But also again the the the >> I mean you don't even have windows there though.
13:22>> Sure. But that in order to get there you have to come through the ri the river and there's no other way to get there.
13:27>> Right. There's one way in.
13:28>> There's only one way and there's no roads. You can't walk through the jungle to get there. It's just not they can't do that.
13:34>> And so at this point we have a huge security team. We're still bringing tourists and everything. They're not after them. They're after me and JJ. The threat level is upriver all the way up there. And they're just saying if anybody sees that Italian guy or that one Peruvian, take them out.
13:51>> Who [sighs] who did these the the guys specifically who have been doing these things, these narcos, these growers, who do they work for? Like what >> they don't they're like it's like it's like it's like we like weed growers in California. It's like they're just doing it on their own, man.
14:09>> Well, I mean they work for like the CCP sometimes now.
14:12>> Well, sure. I don't know what the I'm saying like in the ' 80s, but like like like the the I don't know what the current situation is that. Delete that from the record. I have no idea.
14:22>> That's all right.
14:22>> I'm just thinking about some guy in his backyard with some weed plants. I'm saying these people are just like we'll just grow >> and then we'll So they're saying we'll grow and sell to people that are really So they're kind of below. They're not like the cartel. It's not like the Mexican. This isn't >> Sakario. But who? So you don't know who they're selling the coke to?
14:39>> No, I'm not [ __ ] DEA. Like there we're and that's the sort of the problem is like we're out there, you know, I'm a I'm a artistic writing kid who wants to count butterflies and take pretty pictures. Like I'm not we were not ready for this and now now they're hunting us or they were hunting us.
14:56>> I totally understand that. The difference here is these are people that not only have made explicit threats on your life, they have made attempts on its >> effectively. And you know, I'm not you, but I would want to know like are they obviously this a bad example cuz he's not rallying more, but are they working for Pablo Escobar? Are they working for El Chapo? You know what I mean?
15:16>> We know that from the from the police.
15:18We have a certain amount of intelligence. We we know that they're not working directly for anybody that they are individual groups of people that just think this is a good idea. And so they are artisal cocaine growers.
15:29>> What do their grows look like? And you said they're up river. The grows like five, six hours. forever for days. Like sometimes >> you put a drone over to see where they're growing.
15:38>> We have and then the Peruvian special forces has done it. They even like notified the American DEA because it was such a large hall that they got out. But they've also, as far as we know, they've cleared out the threat to the point that there's no narcos left on the river.
15:53There was like, it was like one, you know, like when you get a wasp nest.
15:56>> Yeah.
15:57>> It was like a wasp nest. It's like they came in, they cleared forest. Think about it. You can't just do this anywhere. you have to clear forest to cut down trees that are 16 ft thick >> with giant chainsaws. There's a lot of work just to make a field in the middle of nowhere. So, they were stuck in that one spot. And so, when law enforcement went in, they were able to clear them out, which they did. And so, at the moment, the threat level has gone back down because it seems like these guys aren't completely stupid and they went, "Oh, this area is protected.
16:26>> The cops are going to keep coming and messing up somewhere else."
16:30>> Yes. And so that's the good part is that it it was for about a year and a half it was really bad and right now as far as we know it's not as bad.
16:41>> Do you know if they're native Peruvians to the jungle itself back there or did they come in there?
16:49>> No, these are coming from another part of Peru entirely.
16:51>> So they could have been like from Puerto Maldonado or something.
16:54>> Worse. No, they're they're from a whole other part of the Amazon. They're from like the where the the Amazon turns into the Andes. They're from >> Oh, they're from all the way up there.
17:01>> No, they're from all the way up. They're not from the jungle. They're people they're they're people from the countryside, as JJ would say. So, they're they're they are familiar with the outdoors, but they are not Amazonian natives.
17:12>> How >> they're coming just to use the remoteness, the fact that we are past the edge of human civilization on the planet. They are trying to use how remote it is. The same reason we want to protect it because these ecosystems are thousands, millions of years old and have never been touched. They're going, "Well, it's so far past where anybody can get with a boat or a car.
17:30>> It's so inaccessible. We can do this and no one's gonna catch us." But it just so turns out that this is within the area that Jungle Keepers is trying to protect. And it just so turns out that they're directly in conflict with the unconted tribes. And so the unconted tribes and the narcos, I was speaking to another anthropologist who you should have on the show, Carrie Bowman, who's his work is incredible. He does set it up.
17:56>> He does work in another part of the Amazon. And he was saying, same problem.
18:00This is becoming a problem with these these artisal narcos.
18:04And he was saying that these people are so scared. They've come from another part of the Amazon and they come into the deep jungle. And so they don't know what these sounds are. Unlike JJ, they don't know what any of the sounds are.
18:17They don't know what any of the medicines are. They don't know what the rules of the game are. And so when they hear that there's these tall painted warriors that have a whole different code, a whole different language that have been out there for centuries, they think of them almost as mythological.
18:31Like they have beliefs where they're like, "If you even see one, you'll die."
18:36Which is kind of true because if you if they don't like you and you see one, they'll clever girl you from the side with an arrow and you'll have it through your neck by the time you realize what's going on. How long those bamboo tipped arrows?
18:46>> Seven feet.
18:46>> Yeah, that'll do it.
18:47>> Yeah, they're huge. And so, and so the narcos are terrified of the unconted tribes, which is in one way good because it keeps keeps the narco activity under control. And also, a shotgun in the forest is not as effective as an arrow, cuz a shotgun's range is less than an arrow's range.
19:03>> Really?
19:04>> Of course, >> a 7 foot arrow.
19:05>> Can we look up how far buckshot shoots with any sort of uh uh uh efficacy?
19:11Because you shoot buckshot, I want to say like >> he's already got it. [ __ ] machine.
19:15>> 50 yards.
19:16>> All right. Buck shot at the range is generally considered under 50 yards with peak effectiveness often cited within 25 to 40. Yeah.
19:24>> Now, can you look up what is the range of a long bow arrow? An arrow shot from a long bow.
19:29>> Do any of your guys have like AR-15s or anything? No.
19:34>> Okay. A long bow arrow is going to be 200 to 300 yards. It's not even close.
19:39>> Not even close. Not even [ __ ] close.
19:41>> Not even close. And And in the jungle where you, you know, buckshot's going to be hitting leaves and vines and triggs and things to actually shoot, you know, I might get a little bit of you, but I'm not going to, you know, those arrows if they get you. It's a whole machete going through your body. You ain't going to get up.
19:57>> Yeah. I remember when we first met before you did the podcast, >> it was August 2022 and you went down for the fire season. Yeah. So, I've told the story before, but I texted you maybe like a week and a half to you being in there and I was up editing one night at like 3:00 a.m. and you hadn't answered for like 3 days and then you got to a sad phone or something and you sent me like >> it was like a shuddering like kind of like three paragraph text like, "Yeah, we ran into the unco and so ran into the unconted tribes, took a bamboo through the temple."
20:29>> Yeah.
20:30>> He's gone. I was just like, >> "Yeah, >> [ __ ] man."
20:33>> Yeah. I mean, it's I mean, it's like the Wild West, but wilder.
20:37>> Yes.
20:37>> There's no rules. When you're in unttracked Amazonian jungle, there's just the the the the rules are the rules of the rain and the rocks and the teeth.
20:47Like, it's like the it's it's who's faster, who's got bigger teeth. It's just it's it's the original rules. It's like it's like caveman times. And how wide I'm trying to think the when you're going up Madridio's River, >> the average spots that you're going up like across the way, how wide is that?
21:06>> 50 [snorts] m.
21:07>> I mean, on our tributary, >> yeah, I'd say about 50 m to 80, right?
21:12There's certain points where the river is much fatter and then it'll it'll choke down at the turns and >> but in range.
21:19>> Oh, 100% in range. Oh, yeah. Meaning like if you spot them across >> Yeah. Oh yeah.
21:25>> And they're deadly accurate.
21:26>> Deadly accurate. I mean, one of my close friends um his father was shot through the stomach and the way it hit him, it cut him across the stomach. So everything fell out onto the floor. It just perfectly opened him. So in one second he was alive and fine. Arrow [snorts] went by and all of his guts fell out onto his feet. And so his son was there with him. And then they started noticing that the that the the animal sounds had been different and that there was multiple animal sounds coming from multiple directions and the tribes were talking in animal sounds to that they hadn't noticed and then the
22:01kid ran for it and ended up living. The father of course died because there's no way of putting. Um but he's my friend. I know him. Very nice guy.
22:11>> All right, back to Narcos for a second.
22:13Do you have like did you have an idea of the range of like number that you were dealing with like how deep they went?
22:22>> Uh no at the time that that happened it was very scary. I mean again we're running scared on a boat. We're we're boating as quickly as we can and then >> afterwards I mean >> I know I'm saying I'm saying afterwards even afterwards it was like we have to start finding out you know we have to go to go to the police and be like look this is now beyond our hands. I mean, we can have rangers going around with boats and reporting to you guys when there's logging, but we have no idea how to deal with this threat, >> right?
22:48>> You know, so it was really we had to up everything about our operations. It became a lot more expensive to protect land because we have to do it now with it's not just protect the land and stick some rangers on. It's protect the lands, stick some rangers, bring security.
23:00>> It's a whole bigger thing now. And so this is horrible with the loggers. It's like sort of it's, you know, it's like you're running a marathon and you're coming into the last third of the marathon and somebody jumps on your back. It's like this is not what you needed right now. This is and and they're trying to stab you in the neck.
23:14It's like it's just not this is hard enough the way it was. Now that they're hunting us, it has it has truly become, you know, this was a dangerous job before that. the whirlpools, the falling trees, the vipers, the Amazon itself, the rushing river, the now there's angry people that want to kill us out there.
23:36And so, um, and if you look at the numbers of I mean, again, this is probably a stat that we could pull up, but like how many environmental defenders are shot in the Amazon every year, it's many. This is an ongoing thing where people will stand up for the forest, whether it's local people or people from outside, and then they will kill them.
23:572024 data. In 2024, at least 146 environmental defenders were killed or disappeared globally with the vast majority of these occurring in Latin America. There it is.
24:08>> Like it's an ongoing they know they know how it works because there's usually a figurehead at the top of the organization like me or JJ. And if you can cut the head off the snake, also if you can devastate enough, if you can cause that shock and awe of letting people see a [ __ ] body, they'll stop. they'll leave.
24:26>> Also, like what kind of >> I know it's in Peru.
24:32>> Peru is a nation. They have laws, >> but this is so far beyond where the cops or military generally go.
24:41Like it's are there even laws out there?
24:45I mean the technically according to who you know >> right >> again if me and you are at in Alaska and we are 150 miles away from the nearest police station >> you know what and we get into a bad argument what's you know the only thing that stops us is our own >> uh ethical framework you know or if we run let's let's let's rephrase that because me and you is a bad example but let's say we ran into a bunch of people and they wanted to rob us, what's going to stop them from doing it? The only thing that's going to stop them from doing it is if we have guns sufficient to fight their guns. That's it. Because
25:23if they have more, even if we were loaded with pistols, they have shotguns, they're going to win. Period.
25:31And so it really comes down to who's got bigger teeth and stronger muscles. It's it's like the original old school rules.
25:38And so we're days past. I mean, I'm talking days by boat where you go drive for a whole day through the jungle, you don't see anybody except for animals, and then you drive for another whole day. And so when you get to those places, we're in the middle of nowhere.
25:52>> Yeah.
25:53>> The bad guys have figured out that if they can go out there, nobody can mess with them. And so it's it's it's it's whereas it used to be I mean and Mother of God I was going on these solos deep into you know national parks that only JJ and the indigenous people have access to and going far far out but we knew that there was no people up there. You knew that it was just pristine jungle that had been growing for 30 million years.
26:19Now on our river, it's like every thing is coming to a head, >> right?
26:23>> And then recently, this is not like public knowledge, but you know, someone came back with pictures from way out in the Amazon and there was a mass grave where apparently the narcos had rounded up the unconted tribes and just shot dozens of them. And so now the narcos are realizing just just kill everybody.
26:45And so there the the thing is the the wildest place on earth now has pressure from the narot traffickers, the loggers, the illegal gold miners. There's roads coming in. We are literally we have this this diamond. We have this beautiful emerald thing that we're trying to protect that's filled with millions and millions of animal heartbeats. It's the most incredible interconnected complex wilderness on Earth. And we're begging the world to help us protect it. And the only thing we need is the funding to finish it. We've already shown that we can do it. And so it's just a race against time. Can we beat the bad guys
27:16to save the animals? It's basically Avatar.
27:19>> Can Can you de Can you just pull up a map of Peru right now with like a topography map so we can see like the green and everything?
27:29Do you roughly know the general area where that mass grave was? Cuz I got some questions about this.
27:35>> You can ask me questions about I can't tell you where it was. I can't point it out on map on public.
27:41>> Fair enough. All right. Never mind on that part.
27:44That's fine.
27:45>> I'm almost shocked that that they found that because like out here the mob wax a guy, they take him to the [ __ ] metall. They can find those bones and [ __ ] you know, three, four, five, six, seven years later if they have to.
27:57>> But you think about out in the Amazon where everything the the jungle literally eats itself. If someone whacked someone out in the middle of the Amazon, they could leave the body right there and how long would it even last before it's completely gone? Not long, but I think that the thing that what they not like a day, like a two days, your body's gone. Um, the vultures, the the dung beetles, the the flies, the maggots, the things. I've seen it. I've watched like a dead porcupine. I've watched a dead taper, which is almost the same weight as a human, same amount of flesh to digest. And >> bones gone.
28:27>> Taper went to bones, I would say, in three days. Like no flesh left on it in the middle of the jungle. And then you give it another week and those bones are gone with the rain and the mycelium get into it. Um, >> so why did the narcos build a mass grave and how did the body stay there long enough to even be discovered?
28:46>> Uh, I think it's the turtle tracks principle. So when you when you when you people want to eat turtle eggs and you're driving up river in your boat, they the only way to find the turtle eggs is to look for the footprints of the mother turtles. And you can see these these these little footprints going up the beach to the point where you can see the turtle eggs. And then the only time you're going to find those is when the tracks are fresh. So once it rains, it's wiped. So either you're finding new turtle eggs or you don't find turtle eggs. But you're never going to find turtle eggs and have there be
29:17baby turtles in there. They're either fresh, >> right? And so with the mass grave, I think that what they did was they piled up so many bodies that there were so many vultures flying over that thing.
29:28You'd have king vultures, yellowheaded vultures, blackheaded vultures. So some native person probably saw this thing of vultures tornado of vultures like they've never seen before and went I want to know what's over there. These native people are so smart they probably went I want to know what's over there and they probably went and invested.
29:44That's the only thing I could think of because it would be so far out >> but at the same time it would cause such a reaction in the forest to have that much material that can be digested. So I don't there's not I mean I I don't know anything about it. Somebody somebody very reliable told me that this had happened. But the important thing is this. I mean, you know, the reason >> talking Paul, >> I don't I mean, he said mass graves. So, you're talking at least over 20, I would assume. This is not these are not these are not this is I'm at this point reaching deep into what I don't know.
30:17>> But the the thing is, you know, people keep going, why did you release the footage of the unconted tribes? And it's like, >> because they can't tell their story on a podcast. They can't go at to the United Nations. They can't go post social media posts. So, either they're going to go extinct and no one's going to know about it or we get the power to protect their forest and get the narcos out and save all the wildlife and they continue to live there as long as they want.
30:42But in order to protect them, we have to tell their story. And we need the support of people wanting to protect them. And so for that, we have to publish what's going on.
30:51>> And that is, you know, most people have gotten that. It's only like, you know, every every hundred comments or so you get somebody that's just like, "Leave them alone. We are leaving them alone.
31:00They're coming out of the forest and asking us for help."
31:02>> Yes. You can't worry about that. That's, you know, you're doing the right thing and you're an expert on it. So, I'm I'm not worried about that. What The other thing I keep thinking with the narcos though is like they're doing this five, six hours up river obviously growing the stuff and then transporting it out of there. They don't even really need to think about how they smuggle it though cuz there's no one out there. They [ __ ] stick it on the boats, right?
31:22stick it on the boats >> and you don't know where it ends up.
31:24Like you don't know where the boats end up.
31:27>> I mean, we do. The boats end up on the Trans Amazon Highway and then the Trans Amazon Highway leads all the way to Lima.
31:33>> Okay. So, you don't know who the >> And there's there's there is a police checkpoint on the road, but they stop you and they, >> you know, they do that [clears throat] pointless baggage search thing where they unzip your bag and they look into it and they touch a few things and then they zip your bag. They're too they're too lazy to really search it. And so, I mean, you could have all the [snorts] cocaine you want in that bag and they're never going to find it. If they had dogs, it would be a little bit more efficient. But again, you're talking about a police force where the people are good. They want to do their jobs
32:01more effectively. They don't have the resources. They don't have the training.
32:05They don't have the funding. And they're trying the best they can. They also have too much land and too few officers. Same thing with the gold mining. And that you can look up. You can look up Mad Dios uh of Peru.
32:16If you look up the Madra deios of Peru and you zoom in on that on Google Google Maps, you can like get the maps up.
32:23Yeah. And if you look satellite, if it's on satellite, it should be on satellite, >> I think.
32:29>> You have to go to actual. Yeah. Open a maps. Exactly.
32:32>> Yeah. And then go to satellite view. So it's the real thing.
32:37>> Layers on the left.
32:39>> There you go.
32:41>> Okay.
32:41>> Yeah. So see that right above your cursor. See that yellow [ __ ] at the bottom? That zoom into that? That's all gold mining.
32:47>> That's all gold mining.
32:48>> That's all gold mining. That's hundreds of thousands of acres of gold mining.
32:52>> Now, you and I in episode 124 talked about that at like the 29 30 minute mark. So, you've talked about this before, but for people who haven't seen that or haven't heard this, like who runs these operations?
33:04>> Wait, hold on. I literally want to take a picture of I just want to take a picture of the screen because the the that's kind of funny. Um, who runs these organizations?
33:14>> Yes. like like gold mining mafias. They there's mafias of gold miners. So actually some of the security people that I work with with the police have worked for cuz they don't you know security doesn't care where they work for. They've worked for legal miners.
33:26There are some legal mining happening not illegal mining. And this dude was telling me a story where he was working for the legal miners. So these people are working up to their chests in the sludge pulling the gold out of the soil.
33:39They'd already cut the forest, burned the forest, and now they'd irrigated the soil, and they're sucking it up, and they're using mercury to bind the gold.
33:45And they finally get, after weeks of effort, they get this tiny little golf ball-sized piece of crap gold. It's not even high quality gold. And now they have to move there, this family of artisal gold miners has to move this gold from here to the city where they can sell it. Now you have this very very valuable thing concentrated in your hand and everybody knows you have it because you're a gold miner. So what happens?
34:09They get in their car and they start driving. They actually were able to hire security to go with them. And he said as they're going down this little dirt jungle trail and there wasn't trees this time. They'd used a a parked pickup truck just to block the road. Everybody came out, everybody started shooting. I said, "Well, what happened on that day?"
34:26He said, "Well, me and my team killed six of them of the attackers." He said, "But we only lost one." He said, "It was my friend right next to me." He said, "He got shot and he said his neck exploded, hit the artery, and he died right there."
34:40>> And so, this is all so that these people can get one piece of gold to to the selling point. They've destroyed acres and acres of a priceless ecosystem.
34:50They've risked their lives. And so you have to look into the fact that these people are so desperate. Nobody would do this if they had another option.
35:00>> There's you just pointed out though also there's legal and illegal ones. So the legal ones that obviously goes through the Peruvian government gets permission.
35:09Are there guard rails on ecologically what they're allowed to do there?
35:13>> No, it's very unregulated. And in those areas, they call this La Pampa. And >> you we I I've driven up to the gates of that area, and there's gates, and that is where you find your guy with the AK-47, >> right?
35:26>> That's where you see a guy in sunglasses with a machine gun, and you don't go past there. He won't let you pass there.
35:33And uh there was one time that I got to go into the gold mining areas, and I had Matt Gutman with me from ABC News.
35:40>> Shout out, Matt.
35:41>> Yeah. And we we we got to go we went we we met these Russian gold miners and they were Russian gold miners and they had come and they had legal permits to try and they were actually trying to make gold mining less environmentally devastating. They're trying to improve upon this cut it burn it suck it all up and they were like then maybe there's more sustainable way to maybe.
36:02>> And so we walk we go in there and we're on like dune buggies going across this this wasteland this sand. It looked like the bottom of the ocean. And this is where the Amazon rainforest used to be.
36:12In the distance, there's a sandstorm blowing up. It looked like dune. And we're in these dune buggies with sand all over us. And I'm going, "This is where the jungle used to be. This is the apocalypse of nature happening all around us. And we're standing on a on a on a dune watching the sandstorm spread across the land. And the Russian guy comes up to me and goes, "You are Paul Rosales."
36:34And I said, "How? How?" Yes. And I'm going, [laughter] "How does he know my name?" And he goes, "They are gold miners and they know your name." And I [snorts] went, "They know my name." He said, "That's how I know your name." He said, "Because I heard them saying your name." He goes, "I'm just telling you.
36:50They know your name. They know that you raised money to stop them." And he's like, "They're all talking about the fact that you're here right now." And he was like, "You might want to be careful." And then days or a week later, I don't remember, but the I was walking in the city just like like you see there, and on the sidewalk and a little tuk tuk pulled up and drove up on the curb and two guys jumped out and pushed me up against the wall and they said, "No more talk in Spanish." They said, "No more talking about gold mining." And they say a few other threats that they were spitting out at me. But I was that
37:23time I fully thought that that was it. I was up against the wall and I said, "This is they there's no reason that they can't."
37:29>> De, can you pull up a picture? We've done this before, but I want people to see this. Amazon gold mine wasteland.
37:36Let's try that search. Like you've shown me this before, Paul, where it's just totally blown out. And you Yeah. Which one do you want, Paul? One on the far right.
37:45>> Any of these. Yeah. I mean, that's those is pretty bad. That's where the jungle used to be.
37:49>> Yeah. And then actually that one you're scrolled over right now, DeF. Hit that cuz you can literally see it where it's cut off. So that was all trees.
37:57>> Yeah. You honestly just add my name to the end of that search thing right there and I'm pretty sure my picture will come up. I I wonder.
38:03>> Okay.
38:03>> I just am curious. Let's see. Yep. Right there. Top result. That's it. That's that day I'm talking about.
38:08>> That's like the [ __ ] Sahara in the middle of the Amazon.
38:11>> You can see the sandstorm in the background of that photo.
38:16Uh that's that's just such a horrific picture. And that pipe coming out the front. That's what they use to suck the earth up.
38:24It was one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen. The complete annihilation of nature on Earth, the devastation of millions of years of evolution to nothing.
38:33>> And how much is this type of destruction growing? Like, do we know a rate it's growing at or has it been somewhat contained at this point?
38:42>> It's been growing. And the problem is that the military is scared to go. The the Peruvian law enforcement is scared to go in there now because the minors are more numerous than they are. They're like, >> what about the military? I mean, the military can be called in. A few years ago, they came in with with helicopters and and commandos, and they came in and they blew up a bunch of [ __ ] They arrested everybody, and then they they had a few problems. One, they had hundreds and hundreds of people they just arrested. And most of them are >> artisal, you know, smallcale people.
39:10They're not bosses. They don't have anything. So, what do you eventually you have to let them go next? They just blew up all this mining equipment and the damage is already done. And half the people ran off into the surrounding jungle. And so within a few weeks, everybody was back at it doing the gold mining again. And then so you go, well, what do we do? Another huge. But the problem is if you don't have a better alternative for these people, just like the loggers, if you say, "Stop logging," they're going, "We're not going to stop logging. I got to feed my daughter." Not going to stop logging. But if you go,
39:37"Hey, I have a better job for you. You can work as a ranger. We'll give you a t-shirt. We'll give you some binoculars.
39:42You can drive a boat, right?" They go, "Yeah." And they go, "Well, we're hap you don't have to run from the law either." Well, then they're happy to do that. But now you have to find a way to replicate that for tens of thousands of people that are destroying this ecosystem because they're desperate and they don't have any money and they're willing to risk their lives for a couple of nuggets of gold and then try to get that to the place where they can sell it before they get shot. It literally is like the wild west and then people are coming with masks on and pistols and taking that gold from them. The the
40:10poorest people on earth being robbed by the slightly poorer people on earth.
40:14It's just it's it's horrible. It's no country for old men. It's just it's just dark >> above that like above the level of these [snorts] mafias. Yeah. Like I'm just thinking about the logging we've talked about in the past where the funding can be traced back to America, China, different countries around the world like enemies are like all doing the same damage and [ __ ] and then all the countries are buying the product that they get there.
40:38>> Do we also see like nation states funding some of the gold mining as well?
40:43>> I don't not in this case. I I think that most of the most of the logging that's h most of the gold mining that's happening here is such low-grade gold that it's not going towards like jewelry. It's not being exported to Europe. It's or America. This is this is like gold you use in in like electrical work. It's not Yeah. This is >> all that risk for just that.
41:04>> What's the most valuable thing out there? But again, these people, there's so much they could they could literally if if education was the prevailing uh or or or the head of the line out there, these people could learn how to do all kinds of complex agroforestry and and actually make products that make them more money in a sustainable living and they could be exporting Brazil nuts and and small amounts of tropical timber and caring for their kids in an environment that's thriving.
41:30Whereas this is now a wasteland. Nothing can grow there or will for decades. And so we're we're we're fighting this. When I say that we're fighting this existential threat, I mean this for everybody on Earth. It's if a fifth of our fresh water is contained in the Amazon and 1/5if of our oxygen is coming out of this system and all of this biodiversity and endangered species and undiscovered medicines and tribal indigenous knowledge is contained in this. We're literally on the cusp of losing it. And so it is this thing that right now we need people to right now we need to figure out how to save this
42:04river so that we can prove that it can be done again and again and again and across the Amazon indigenous territories are the largest most prevalent way of protecting the Amazon the most effective then there's the national park systems and then there's other things but it's like we have to also as a I think as a country I think it would be helpful if America was putting pressure on South or or >> carrot in the stick you know what I mean incentivizing Latin American countries even better incentivize them and say, "Look, we're going to hook you up with trade.
42:33>> Yes, >> we are going to hook you up, but we want to see zero deforestation. Let's help these people to rise out of poverty and then we don't no one's going to go out and start shooting jaguars and cutting down trees if they have a real job."
42:45>> Sure.
42:46>> Yeah.
42:47>> If you were given control of one of these gold mine wastelands tomorrow, how would you fix this? And how long would it take? Obviously, you can't regrow ancient trees in [ __ ] 10 years, but like what could you do to salvage what's happened?
43:00>> I mean, you you would have to talk to a ecosystem restoration expert. I'm I I focus in in saving primary rainforest and old growth rainforest. When you look at the look at the thick jungle that's on there, I I I I'm about saving this.
43:16Once you get down to that level, >> it's tough.
43:20>> That's tough. That's like how do you bring back a dead body? And that's going to be the mercury contamination that's there. The fact that the the sun beating down on that on that sand is going to prevent anything but maybe grass from growing there. You'd have to find a way of getting some initial cover. You'd have to wait for the pioneer species like ccropia and balsa and the grasses to take over there and to begin to build a layer of some sort of soil and top soil and some shade. Otherwise, it really is just scorched wasteland and it's not going to grow back.
43:51>> What is the current? You mentioned the current like national park system out there.
43:56>> What is Let's just focus on Peru for a second before going to other countries.
43:59What does that even look like at the moment? Because you had said earlier your threshold for your stuff would be like 300,000 acres. So what do they already have in existence and who runs it?
44:09>> Oh, it's really good. Um I mean in our region you can look up the uh they have Alto National Park, there's the Tambopata Reserve, there's Manu National Park which is a UNESCO World Heritage site. There's different indigenous territories. There's something called the Amaric Americal Reserve. There's the unconted indigenous reserve. Um there's there's so much that's protected. And then you go up to the northern north north of Peru, there's more area protected. And even Smithsonian published a map where they showed that if we can protect from Ecuador down through the through Peru, the Andes Amazon interface, that this
44:50could be a contiguous protected area that would protect the most biodiversity on Earth. Um, so there is there's there's there's massive amounts of hope out there. It's just that it's just that we need we need more people. We need more action. We need and that's why this has been so great with the book is like, >> yeah, >> we've we've uh this is it's like the right time and the it seems like the story is reaching people and I think the message of the book is is understanding that I think a lot of people feel like they individually don't have the capability to do something >> and I think that what this proves on a
45:26number of levels whether it's JJ me Jane that you absolutely can >> and there's different levels of it you know you don't um you shouldn't nobody should do what I did what I did was um sort of suicidal.
45:40>> Suicidal.
45:41>> Well, I mean, in the sense that like I would never tell anyone to go do what I did, you know, go out on solos for 15 years, live out of your backpack, have no plan B, >> fish with your [ __ ] skin on the bottom of your foot.
45:51>> Develop crucial life like >> fishing with the bottom of your foot.
45:58[snorts] >> That's why there's one Paul Rosley.
46:01>> Amen. Now, what about you mentioned about 60% of the Amazon is in Brazil.
46:07>> Yeah.
46:07>> And there's been all kinds of political [ __ ] going on with their government there. What what's the current standing of like the job they're doing >> in protecting the Amazon? Obviously, that's different than where you are.
46:18You're in Peru, but how much do you know about that?
46:21>> It's not great. And the last administration, the Bolsinaro administration, he actually encouraged people to go into the Amazon and settle it. It was like manifest destiny.
46:32>> Settle it.
46:33>> Settle it. He said cut roads. He actually provided funding for people to go out, cut roads, deforest, set up farms. It was like we he said we have all this territory in our country that we're just not using. This is unutilized potential that could be having economic output and an ecosystem just standing there isn't actually putting dollars in our pockets. So he went get out there do that. And they if I'm not wrong, and this is one of those ones disclaiming, I'm saying that I I believe I believe I'm not wrong. He actually said something to the to the effect of like get rid of the indigenous people. Get
47:09rid of the tribes.
47:10>> What is it? Like kill him.
47:13>> I can pull that up tribes something. He he was it was something very extreme.
47:20>> He's referring to all of them. The ones known and the ones uncont. I don't I don't I remember just watching it and going that is that is I mean people talk about like racism I was like this is this is >> yeah that's crazy >> this was wild >> Bsaro wanted to exterminate us claims indigenous leader Rayoni >> met Kyapo chief tells in memoir of seeing former president in his dreams and of warning Lula not to repeat past mistakes. Okay let's >> Okay, but that's his dreams. I'm saying there's a there's a I know that I saw a video of Bolsinoro saying something where it's like he's like we don't need
47:53these like you know something very dark.
47:57Okay. Um I could I'm I'm trying to see if there's anything that mentions that in here. Can we just Google BSaro quotes on eliminating indigenous tribes?
48:15See if that's okay. Yay. Bolsinaro has a long history of controversial and widely condemned remarks regarding indigenous tribes in Brazil and advocating [snorts] for their assimilation, the exploitation of their lands, and expressing admiration for the historical eradication of indigenous population in other countries. A frequently cited quote from a 1998 interview published in 2015 2016 shows him praising the actions of the US calvary. He stated, "It's a shame that the Brazilian calvary hasn't been as efficient as the Americans who exterminated the Indians."
48:46>> There you go. That's a blatant statement.
48:52So, you have a guy like that who [clears throat] who can say that it's unfortunate that we are not able to exterminate indigenous people more than we have. You have that guy running the country that has some of the most sensitive pristine cultures on Earth.
49:11And so you think of all the endless miles of smoky jungle and all the toucans and the spider monkeys and the macaw and all the raindrops and leaf cutter ants and these complex biological processes and the fact that everything is interconnected and that the rain in the Amazon is caused by the sum total of all of these interconnections. And then you have China and the World Bank and the IMF and guys like Bolsinoro who just want to make money and they want to use it as space and they want to clear aside that. I mean just imagine if it was a town of people and you said we're literally going to bulldoze the town
49:46with the people in their houses and then burn it. That's what we're facing. And so I live this this life where you know it's funny when you watch Mission Impossible, right? We had the ancient forest. We found out that there was 10,000 acres of the Amazon rainforest that was going to be bulldozed and and chopped down and burned. And we were able to go online.
50:06We told the world about it. We found a donor who gave us half of the money we needed. We went to Instagram. The word spread around the world. And we were able to raise 300 $350,000. We protected the ancient forest. Saved. Right. But that was two weeks of like psychotic work and expedition up there, meeting the land owners, using our indigenous wisdom, sending JJ out, talking to the police, signing with the lawyers.
50:28I mean, monumental efforts. You get across the finish line, you fall on your face, but you pick your your face up and you go, but there's more smoke. It's the next one. So, it's like, even if you can ride the motorcycle and jump off the mountain and land it on a train and then then parachute down and stop the bomb from going off, but that's great, but then you got to do it again tomorrow.
50:47>> Yeah.
50:47>> And you're only going to get lucky so many times.
50:50>> Flies.
50:51>> It just Yeah. It just it just doesn't stop. And so we've we've had this, you know, this is the story of win after win after win, but it's like it's also there's so many losses. Like the first chapter in here, I'm talking about JJ teaching me how to track.
51:05>> Also, I looked at the titles of the chapters right before you got here.
51:08[ __ ] sick, bro.
51:09>> Yeah. Um I >> They're sick. Yeah.
51:12>> The first one is the rivers in our veins.
51:15>> And it's like that's just J the when JJ the early days where JJ would just take me on these little streams in the forest and teach me everything. And then that first stream that we used to explore for years and years and years that then they burnt it down >> and now it's gone.
51:29>> They just burnt it down. Settlers came in, took it as a farm, they burnt it down. They planted yuka there for a couple years and now they're gone. So they ruined the ancient forest that used to be there. Killed every single animal that was living in that forest. I mean, this stream used to have, you know, emerald stained glass ceilings and these giant trees and vines going across and there'd be jaguar tracks on the rivers and clouds of butterflies. It was magical.
51:55And they came and they just cut all the trees with chain individually. You know, the amazing uh deliberation deliberateness here. You have to go and cut each tree for it to fall over.
52:04That's the other thing people don't realize with the environment is that if you stop killing it, it will live. It's been there for millions of years along the the Amazon formed 30 to 55 million years ago, million of years ago. And so this system has been complexifying for millions of years. It existing right there. All the trees and if you look at some of the millennium trees that stand there, you look at a thousand-year-old tree, you see that tree was there when they were painting the roof of the Cistine Chapel. That tree was there in World War I. That tree was there in World War II. That tree has been there
52:37my entire life. It's been this sentinel of the ages, of the centuries, and then they cut it over. So that story is over.
52:44And think of how many millions of animals have lived on the branches of that tree over the course of the centuries that it was alive. And now that story is over. And the fact that in another thousand years, we may not have a tree like that because if we break the moisture cycle of the Amazon, we're not going to have an Amazon rainforest. And so that be it becomes then that every day is mission impossible until we save this ecosystem. And that ecosystem happens to be the size of the lower 48.
53:07And we're the last generation in history because once we cut too much of the Amazon and it can't produce the rain that makes it the Amazon rainforest and it's going to dry out and become a wasteland and then you're talking about post-apocalyptic panic on this planet because everything is going to change and then our weather is going to go crazy and it's like you're messing with all the dials. And so the fact that we can protect this, I don't think it's a very big ask. If you're going to go the Jane Goodall route, the Gandalf route, >> you go, "Hey, there's still time to do this." So, it's not a big ask. I
53:40mean, to to protect the rest of our river, we need $20 million to protect the rest of our river. I just met somebody that spent at who was working I just met somebody who spent $20 million putting in a new cafeteria at their company, and I was like, "Easy.
53:53So, this this this money is out there."
53:55>> Um, check. Yeah. So, here's some some some some chairs and a counter and a few Coke machines and a roof and it's $20 million right there. We could save I mean, we're already protecting land that's half the size of Singapore. It's nine Manhattan Islands.
54:10>> One less building in New York could make a big difference.
54:12>> There you go.
54:13>> Yeah.
54:14>> Yeah.
54:14>> Make a huge [ __ ] difference. that you've talked about before how you don't know where the percentage cut off is meaning you don't know when it gets to whether it gets to 30 or 35% or 40 the Amazon cut down where it's the point of diminishing like no return diminishing returns do you feel >> like we have >> I don't want to say halted but >> done enough good over the last three years to kind of keep things at even just status quo quo of losing the Amazon or are we still statistically losing too many trees?
54:50>> We're still losing too many trees every year, but again, it can't, you know, you're watching you're watching the you're watching the water slide out of the bucket and it's like we're we're slowing it. We're stopping it, but it's still leaking. It's still leaking. It's still going. And it's only one admin one bad administration away from being devastated, >> right? And the thing is we just you don't want to go close to that. You don't want to you know how close can you go? How many how many what is it rivets can you take out of the the wing of an airplane before you know you take one two three hundred
55:23you're fine big plane and how many does the wing come off >> that's right >> you don't know we don't know someone knows but with the Amazon nobody knows because it's never been done before and why would you want to push it to that and so I think that you know I think that more and more people are understanding that you need healthy ecosystems for human life to thrive that these things come standard. They're free. These ecosystem services are free.
55:47Life on Earth comes standard with with fresh water in the streams. It comes standard with fish in the ocean. There's food everywhere.
55:56There's sunlight. There's plants.
55:57There's ecosystems. People don't understand. People start talking about, "Oh, we should, you know, we're going to go to Mars. Great. You know what's Bill Maher f I loved Bill Maher's thing about uh where he goes, [ __ ] Mars." And he's he's going, you know, he goes, there's things that that are not on Mars that are on Earth. You know, one example is air. He's like, you don't understand. We have ecosystems here that create the environment you live in without oxygen in the air. That is because of the ecosystems.
56:25This doesn't work. And so, I think people get very uh cavalier with their ideas of what's possible. We live on this tiny little crust of of the earth.
56:33That's it. And that's very very delicate. and something like a hole in the ozone layer. Or you hear that when Crakatoa went off the global like the G the entire globe cooled because of the the smoke from Crakatoa actually.
56:46>> When was that?
56:47>> When was that? I it was like I think it was like >> the whole world cooled because of that.
56:53>> I believe there that that you can see it >> when >> Crackato. No.
57:02>> All right. Krakato's most famous and catastrophic >> 1883 >> eruption occurred from a series of massive explosions culminating on August 27th, 1883. Though activity began in May and ended in October that year with the final basis causing immense tsunamis and killing tens of thousands in Indonesia.
57:20The explosion destroyed over 70% of the island, collapsing it into a caldera collap. Wow. It generated colossal tsunamis, some reaching 120 ft high, leading to over 36,000 deaths, primarily on Java and Sumatra. The eruption ejected vast amounts of ash and gas, causing global climate effects that the sun colored sunsets and a temporary drop in world temperature. There you go.
57:46>> Yeah.
57:48So like a single volcano affecting global temperature. You talk about something like the Amazon rainforest.
57:55It's pretty much the defining feature of our planet. It's like the face of Earth.
57:58It's the big nice green thing as you're coming in. I I just it just it's this is what I I I don't I don't think there's anything more important right now than than making sure that we survive this period of adolescence. So, everyone's very very concerned with the future, but it's like until you can >> until you can show that you can manage the things that you've been given for free.
58:20>> That's right.
58:21Um, >> where where else in the world, Paul, besides the Amazon, are you most concerned about right now from an environmental perspective?
58:29>> I mean, any river that has in the US, I mean, we've damned like 90 something, 97% of the waterways in the in in the US. I mean, just think of that. There's millions and millions and millions of waterways and they all have a dam. And to the point that now that was, you know, hundreds 100 years ago, people thought that was a great idea. They're starting to take down the dams now because salmon fisheries, you know, whereas we're at 5% of the amount of of salmon that used to be in a river.
58:58>> 5%.
58:59>> In a lot of rivers. Yeah. Where do we've devastated so many animal populations?
59:04They they've come down to to to barely viable populations.
59:08>> Yeah. 5%'s crazy. where we used to have billions of salmon coming out of these rivers. And so what's more valuable? A dam to make a little bit of electricity or having salmon that bears and people in the ecosystem can all depend on the salmon, >> right?
59:23>> And I think that at this point it's like even the people that used to be the destroyers are understanding that this is just not it's not going to work like this.
59:30>> You weren't kidding, bro. More than 550,000 dams are located in the United States, >> indicating that nearly every every major ridgger river in the country has been damned, dyed, or diverted. The National Inventory of Dams lists over 90,000 significant structures, but total dams, including smaller non-federal ones, may exceed 2 million, causing widespread habitat fragmentation.
59:58>> Yeah. [snorts] >> Yeah. How's that even possible?
60:02>> It's incredible. The there's a there's a documentary that'll make you cry called Dam Nation. It's an amazing documentary and it's like they interview all these people that are fighting to protect waterways. And it's like you meet these beautiful there's a guy who his job is to ma monitor salmon. And you know, you see him talking about this, you know, he takes you under the water and these clear pools and talks about how these fish come here and how they're just trying to get up river and they're trying to they spawn and their whole life is connected to the river from the sea upwards. And then, as if this wasn't
60:34bad enough, as if we didn't damn the rivers that stop the salmon, then you have farmed salmon. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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