0:01But you, you have posited a very very fascinating theory that is often discussed within ufology these days and you're kind of at the forefront of it, which is the extra-tempestrial model, essentially.
0:15>> Yeah.
0:16>> So >> Nailed the pronunciation, by the way. I did. People don't always do that, but that was perfect.
0:23>> I'm so glad cuz I was saying it in the mirror this morning. I was like, extra-tempestrial.
0:27>> I know, and I was trying to do something good, I thought. Totally backfired.
0:31[laughter] Where I like I wanted to keep the extra and the estrial, you know, and just take out terra, which means earth, add temp, which means time. And then I thought it would be easy and flowy and everybody would know what it means, and it didn't work at all.
0:43>> Oh, so you had like the intentions were good.
0:46>> The intentions were great. Yeah, yeah.
0:47Latin was spot-on, you know, take out earth, put in time, outside of time.
0:52Failed miserably.
0:53>> Well, in Jersey we'll just call them [ __ ] future humans.
0:56>> it.
0:56>> How's that?
0:57>> Yep, that's that's what I should have gone with to start [laughter] with, man.
1:00Yeah.
1:01>> All right, so >> were you 5 years ago? That would have been would have been useful.
1:05>> Yeah, yeah, stick with me. I'll brand it for you.
1:07>> Yeah, appreciate that.
1:08>> But your your realm the way you got into this is very fascinating because you're not just like someone who's researched UFOs forever and stuff, which I've talked with very interesting guys in the space with that, but you are quite literally a biological anthropologist.
1:22So you're serious dude, you studied this in college, and you were just telling me off air that you actually got into anthropology because you were interested in UFOs and aliens?
1:33>> Yeah, yeah, I know. It's kind of weird, and it seemed weirder when you asked me if I knew any other people that had done it in that direction, but yeah, I know.
1:41It started when I was 8 or 9 years old and had this question pop in my head. It was actually really sort of formative moment.
1:50I talk about it the beginning of both of my first two books just so people have the origin story cuz it's kind of the the question I get asked the most, How did you get into this? You know, how does an anthropologist get interested in UFOs? But like you mentioned, it was the opposite. I was interested in UFOs cuz of this moment where I walked into the living room and Whitley Strieber's book was facing out, Communion, the classic 1987 uh book about his experience.
2:15And uh yeah, I had this sort of like like light and a different kind of awareness, sort of um a weird meditative state of sorts, and then this image popped in my head of an early hominin chimpanzee-like form, modern human, and then the quintessential alien on the cover of the book. And with that, the question, could they be us? Could we be related? Could this form be our future selves coming back through time to study their past?
2:42And like I was 8, 9 years old at the time. So, that idea um you know, did it come from me? Did it come from somewhere else? Regardless of its origins, it put me on this path to try to understand and if they could be us, being aware of selection bias, confirmation bias, all the things that could come with trying to research a question with that in mind. But uh one of the best things about science is that it forces you to check all of those things. And it forces you to have an open mind to other possibilities, but to still gather all the data you need to to address something like that.
3:16>> Yeah. And And do you think that being such a young age like that, you kind of have that childlike wonder, obviously, where things necessarily aren't necessarily yet all answered for you.
3:28You're asking what >> That's a damn good question. Yeah, you're right, because I mean, rolling with the whole confirmation bias, selection bias thing. Like, a lot of people impose that on me now. They go, "Oh, you're the future human guy. You must think that's the whole explanation." Like, [ __ ] no, I don't.
3:41I've said it a million times, but I still get accused of that. It's like I still have a very open mind all these possibilities. And I definitely don't think this explains all of the phenomenon. I think it does check a lot of boxes and it should be taken seriously. It should be on the table with other explanations, but I don't think it accounts for all of the variation in the beings and the craft.
4:01Um, there's too much going on.
4:03>> Yeah.
4:03>> But yeah, that's a great point is that maybe at a young age, a very malleable mind. It's interesting that happened around that age, too, because so many people seemingly are abducted beginning around age 8 or 9.
4:15>> Really?
4:16>> Uh, a lot of people have sort of some transformational experience at It's also, interestingly, I believe the time that you can enter communion in the Catholic church or >> Eight.
4:26>> Yeah. So, it's it's like and that's supposed to be the time that you have agency. You have the will to look at things and ask questions, under thing understand things in a broader perspective as opposed to just we're going to tell you that that's this God and forget everything else. So, I think, um, it's maybe not a coincidence that that's when this happened to me, too.
4:45>> Did you have any like religious background as a kid?
4:48>> Yeah, big time.
4:49So, I was raised, um, well, initially Methodist.
4:55And then, he probably wouldn't like me talking about this, but we got a female pastor and that was not okay. So, we went to, um, a Church of Christ, which was more fundamentalist, kind of conservative.
5:06>> Yeah, it [laughter] was, uh, the it that for my first taste of misogyny in the society we live in.
5:13>> [clears throat] >> Um, but no, it was yeah, and then it kind of it got darker from there. Not darker, just a lot more conservative and like you know, woman's place is in the kitchen and black people are separate creation of God. Like, I'm not saying this was the belief in my household, uh, per se.
5:32>> But that's what the pastor was telling you.
5:34>> Well, that's what a lot of the people in the congregation and in that particular denomination believed. And and yeah, some of that did come through. I did hear stuff like that as a kid, but, um, Yeah, but I I don't know. I I guess it didn't necessarily play into this. This was more of a question that was outside of any sort of religious belief system, and it was just an idea sort of a a accompanied with a feeling that was strong enough to lead me into this area of study and to initially study uh physics and astronomy and then to switch to biological anthropology because I realized that this question of the
6:16beings and our evolution is sort of the origins of that moment.
6:21>> Yeah.
6:22>> And also potentially something that isn't going to be as studied, and that turned out to be accurate. There are people looking at the craft. There are people advocating that these may be uh time machines, but there aren't a lot of people focusing on our evolutionary trajectory and what may indicate that they are us based on those long-term evolutionary trends.
6:40>> Quick question to go back to the religion though.
6:45Minus the the cultural brainwashing, I guess, like some of those things that they were trying to beat into you that that you just mentioned, when you look at the core part of like being in the Christian faith and, you know, reviewing the Bible and stuff like that, you're going through this as a child where simultaneously at 8 or 9, you have your first kind of like, "Oh my god, did we come from something else here?" What's up, guys? If you haven't already, please smash that subscribe button and hit that like button on the video. If you don't have time to watch this episode right now, I'd really appreciate it if you
7:17saved it to your watch later playlist on YouTube. Finally, if you'd like to follow me on Instagram or X, those links are in my description below.
7:24Did Did you have Did you struggle with the idea of like what you thought of vis-à-vis, say, future human alien side versus what religion said there was God out there? Was there Was there a clash of those two beliefs for you, or did you [clears throat] lean all one way?
7:43>> Yeah, that's a great question. No, not for me personally, but within the question of religion in my household, there was tremendously.
7:54Um for instance, just to make sure cuz what initially got me interested in this or I guess maybe coincidentally or synchronistically, right before I had that experience with Whitley's book, I'd overheard my dad talking about a UFO encounter that he had had in um the Amish country of Northeast Ohio where I grew up. He was a veterinarian. He crested this hill. He had a colleague with him. It was like 2:00 in the morning. He used to have to go out on these late night calls and this guy was training or something. I don't know why he was with him cuz it's not very common for him to have somebody with him.
8:27But he described this glowing ball of light uh which in Amish country is weird cuz there's not lights a lot of lights for obvious reasons.
8:37Um but this thing was about 200 m away, just kind of hovering on the horizon, shot toward them, hovered above their truck uh for I don't know, 10 15 seconds, went back to where it was, and then shot up at tremendous speed. So there's a lot of variables there that would indicate that this is not a prosaic type of thing.
8:54Um so I heard him explaining this and it sort of piqued my interest.
8:58But then to make sure I had the details of the story right cuz like I said, I've been on this sort of journey since I was a young child. In college, I think it was my freshman year, I interviewed him about it. And he told the story exactly the same. You know, all the details were the same, but then came the religious interpretation. This is the devil leading you away from God. This is not something we should be talking about.
9:21It's evil. It's demonic and it's going to, you know, lead you down this path that's away from God and is therefore problematic.
9:28Um and then I also found that that extends to the broader community where a lot of people that are in the Christian camp are not a big fan of the extraterrestrial idea or UFOs and aliens because that's implicit in it for a lot of people cuz that's been the dominant mantra for so long.
9:47Um because they believe there's one creation of God here on Earth.
9:51>> Mhm.
9:52>> Full stop. So because of that aliens on different planet doesn't fit with their preconceived notions of the biblical creation story and therefore is something else and we shouldn't talk about it. So in my second book I was like, hey y'all this is the still the same creation, you know, this is still God's creation here on this planet just future God's creations coming back to hang out with past God's creations.
10:15>> Mhm.
10:16>> So this extraterrestrial idea should be you know, well-loved within the Christian community because it it still fits within that worldview. It doesn't bring in an outside creation. But it's just different children of God interacting through time.
10:32>> Got it. So let let's let's go ahead That hasn't worked.
10:36What?
10:37>> That hasn't necessarily worked. That appeal to them for that extraterrestrial thing to just >> To who? Wait, you lost me.
10:46>> The Christians.
10:47>> Oh.
10:47>> I thought if I said that they'd be like, oh yeah, cool man. No, that that hasn't.
10:52>> [laughter] >> That's all I was trying to say.
10:54It it was a swing and a miss to to say the least. Um maybe it it resonated with a couple people, but I think they still just ignored the question. So that's all I was trying to Well.
11:04>> I think it's always difficult. You know, we we talk about religion and we talk about belief systems and I I'd say there's religion in many things these days. People find religion in politics.
11:16Once people form a core belief that they kind of stake their meaning to the idea that even 1% of it could be not what they thought it was >> Yeah.
11:27>> is something that is foreign to them.
11:29They're like, no, that's not possible.
11:32And I think that the people who have the most peace from who I've spoken with over the years who are religious are those who are kind of resigned to to the themes and the goodness, but not necessarily all the quote-unquote facts that are thrown out.
11:47>> Yeah. Well, I think I think we are coming to a head. And I I have This has come up a couple times. I was in a meeting with one of the the congressmen involved in this um UAP Task Force and his chief of staff and some other colleagues of mine and just a small little meeting to talk about some of these things. One one thing that came up I think that hearing's today, by the way. I think it's happening like right now.
12:07>> Yeah.
12:08>> Sorry. I'm not allowed to talk about when things are happening.
12:10>> can.
12:11>> Okay, cool.
12:11>> I'm going to put this out in like a month.
12:12>> Okay. Um anyway, so we're talking about like how he they wanted to know what we thought this hearing should be like or how it should go or what types of things should be addressed. And the question of religion came up because it's obviously a dominant thing in our society.
12:28Um and I was saying, you know, and and my colleagues as well who study this more than I do. Uh my last book was about this question, but they're like theologians and uh psychologists who study belief systems.
12:42Um but it seems like to start there there's different baselines we have to build before we can get to this overarching question of religion and how it may relate to the UFO phenomenon throughout antiquity.
12:55But it seems like we need to start with is this real? And I think we've been working at that since 2017 New York Times article.
13:02>> Mhm.
13:03>> Yada yada. And then uh the DoD acknowledging the reality of these craft, uh Fravor and Graves talking about what they saw on Dietrich, too.
13:12Um and then once we've established that this is real, then we can start getting into theory a little bit, which is why I've been coming into the conversation more recently because that's kind of the only thing I can contribute is this theoretical approach bringing in knowledge from these different academic fields to try to build a case for this extraterrestrial model but also others.
13:32You know, how do they fit with each other? And then we can establish a framework in theory and then we can get into implications. What are the implications of this if it's real and if they are coming from outer space or they're coming from our future, they're coming through dimensions, or they're living underground, cryptoterrestrials, then we can start to look at implications of this. We can start to potentially understand their intent through looking at patterns. And then that's where this issue of religion comes. And maybe a lot of these things that we do believe in a literal biblical sense did happen, but they didn't fit
14:04within the box of people at that time, so they created these ideas around them and try to explain them the best way they could. Uh and we're still trying to do that today.
14:14We're still trying to fit the reality of this phenomenon into the framework of religious belief systems. It doesn't neatly fit, so a lot of people say, "Fuck that. I don't want to have anything to do with it." Other people are like, "Well, this must be demons. It must be demonic." Like my dad. He's like, "Well, this is a thing, but you probably won't believe it cuz he saw it.
14:32This is a thing, but it's this. It's this thing that I already understand, so I can put it in a smaller box within the bigger box." So, he does bring the box in, but I think it's going to come to the point where the two boxes are one.
14:45Where this UFO phenomenon, kind of your original question I guess was how did they fit together? For me, I think we're all going to be at that point where the UFO phenomenon and historically and prehistorically and then our belief systems are going to merge into one thing. And that's kind of what I was trying to do with this last book is show how those are likely to come together.
15:04>> Yeah. Now, maybe it would it would be helpful just for everyone out there to follow along to to break down like you've you've obviously gone through some of it today, but to break down once and for all the extraterrestrial model and what exactly it means and how the time travel could work if if you understand what I'm saying.
15:22>> Yeah, absolutely.
15:23Um, that's always a great place to start because um Yeah, like I was listening to this book about the Akashic record recently and it was like [clears throat] the third chapter where she finally defined what she meant by the Akashic record. I'm like, you know, that really would help in chapter one cuz I had no idea what the hell you're talking about.
15:41Um, so yeah, that's a great great place to start. So, the idea um as we sort of touched on previously is just that we have had a long evolutionary history on this planet. We've evolved culturally, we've evolved physiologically and if those same dominant trends continue into the future, we're likely to look like morphologically and we're likely to have technology similar to what we see in these beings that are showing up now throughout recent history, throughout the prehistoric past arguably.
16:11So, what I mostly focused on and what my PhD research was in is craniofacial evolutionary anatomy.
16:18>> Craniofacial evolutionary anatomy.
16:20>> Yeah, so I mentioned these dominant trends. The most dominant ones are an increase in brain size, what we call encephalization, but also a change in the shape of the brain. So, it got about three times larger compared to a chimpanzee or earliest hominin ancestors.
16:36The ones people are most familiar with are actually about halfway through the Australopithecines like Lucy, but you can go back another 3 million years before that. But throughout throughout most of that time we're really just evolving our postcranial anatomy, neck down, right? Standing upright, how are we adapting to this new form of locomotion, bipedalism, the trait that actually defines the hominin lineage.
16:59Um but [clears throat] after about the time of the Australopithecines beginning with Homo habilis about 2 and 1/2 million years ago, then we see the brain start to increase in size. It moves out over the eyes and it increases mediolaterally.
17:13>> Homo habilis, I'm not remembering that one. Where Where was the origin there?
17:17>> So, you've got the Australopithecines.
17:20>> So, the gracile forms became us, robust forms died out. So, you have Australopithecus afarensis, africanus, and anamensis. And then they eventually, one of them or some of them eventually evolved into Homo habilis. They were the first to make and use stone tools, which is why we call them that. It means handyman.
17:39Um which was a really important innovation that allowed our brains to get bigger. It actually contributed to our brains getting bigger cuz there's this feedback loop and our our culture, our new abilities allowed our brains to get bigger. For instance, cutting meat with stone tools. We invented fire not long after that. So, cooking our our food allowed reduction in our masticatory musculature. So, the face could get smaller and get out of the way of the brain.
18:06Um and then the teeth got smaller, the chewing muscles got smaller, brain started to get bigger, and then the feedback loop comes because we think of new ways to solve problems, new ways to process our food, new ways to use fire.
18:19And so, you can see the beginning of this sort of self-licking ice cream cone, this runaway brain train as we call it, where our innovation drives new tools, our new tools allow the brain to get bigger, and and it continued like that and accelerated beginning with Homo erectus about 1 and 1/2 million years ago. Our brains just really started to take off. Move forward like I mentioned, but also expand mediolaterally. It got bigger from left to right. And especially in the parietal lobes.
18:47Um >> And what did what [clears throat] did we add? Like what segments of the brain did we add there?
18:52>> Um those are involved with motor functions. The frontal lobe especially is involved with higher-level thinking, problem-solving. It's sort of the thing that makes us more unique >> Mhm.
19:04>> uh relative to other animals, relative to the great apes, too. Cuz they have large brains for their body size, but they're not doing the same stuff We are.
19:12Um but a lot of it was a shape change.
19:15It was a size change, but importantly, it also changed the shape of our face, the size of it. So, I guess I could break this down. A common example I use with dogs, you can think of a Doberman Pinscher versus a pug or a Chihuahua, where the Doberman's got a long snout, really low sloping forehead, and then you shrink back the face, you add a forehead, and now you're looking at a Chihuahua or a Doberman Rottweiler, you know, any sort of um animal with that vowel plan. You can see it across the animal kingdom. I use dogs because we did it to them in a relatively short period of time.
19:49So, it's also familiar to us. People know dogs better than they know past hominin ancestors. So, it's >> [laughter] >> you know, if I rattle off like all of these Latin names, it doesn't really make any difference. And the whole point of educating and teaching is to speak to people in a way they understand.
20:05Otherwise, you're just fulfilling your own egotistical dreams of saying things that people don't get, which kind of defeats the purpose.
20:13Um so, if we think about the dogs, that's the main trend. Faces got small, heads got bigger, expanded out. And and if you fast forward that, uh we we would look very similar to these archetypal gray aliens with the big round heads, what we call neurocranial globularity, and especially with the enlarged parietal lobes. I mentioned that those are the area where we see the the largest change in both size and shape. And then also larger eyes, kind of the wrap-around eyes, and the more reduced and retracted face, pointy chin.
20:46>> would the eyes be bigger?
20:47>> Yeah, that's a great question.
20:48Um one of my first academic papers after grad school was in a journal called Medical Hypotheses, where I laid out this theory about how these trends are likely to affect vision in a functional sense. So, I was uh particularly looking at juvenile onset myopia, which affects a huge number of people throughout the world, but especially individuals in Eastern Asia, Southeast Asia, >> [clears throat] >> China, Korea, all over the place.
21:18Upwards of 80 to 90% of people have nearsightedness, and it's you know, not a huge issue today.
21:25And in this this paper, I cited other people and also sort of added my own interpretation where you can see [clears throat] how that would happen.
21:33Where you have the brain impinging itself on the eye, the face shrinking underneath it. And what you see in the myopic eye, if you imagine squishing a tennis ball from top to bottom, it squeezes out on the side. That's exactly what the myopic eye looks like. The reason we are nearsighted is because it changes the focal length from that extension of the eye out of the orbit, and it focuses light in front of the retina as opposed to on the retina like it would in a perfectly spherical eye.
22:00That's exactly what we expect to see as the brain grows out over it, the face shrinks back that it would sort of circumscribe the orbit and create that distortion to the eye.
22:10Um so, to answer your question, in this paper, um I cited some other researchers that have demonstrated that the eye and the brain have a pleiotropic gene relationship, which means that when we see two different organs, we see the brain and the eyes two separate things, they're actually controlled by the same set of genes. So, they're essentially one thing.
22:33[clears throat] Yeah. So, um pleiotropy just means you have different characteristics that are influenced by the same gene or set of genes. So, therefore, they have the same growth and development, they have the same um that in an evolutionary phylogenetic sense, they they change over time together evolutionarily and throughout growth and development. And the other thing is that the eye grows out of the brain.
23:00It grows out of the telencephalon during fetal ontogeny, which is a bunch of big words that just mean it goes boop and it comes out of that developing brain.
23:09>> didn't know that.
23:09>> Yeah, so they they are essentially the same organ. So if the brain gets bigger, we would expect that the eye would get bigger, too, to answer your question. So um we see them as two different things, but essentially they're one organ. So an increase in one would it we'd expect to see an increase in the other. Unfortunately, we can't study the eye um cuz it's soft tissue. It decomposes, it goes away. We can study the orbit, but there's also a lot of other things in the orbit. There's rectus muscles, there's fat. Um but we can get a sense of those changes over time with regard to brain eye. We can see the orbit changing. We
23:47can see how that shifts, and it was very even 30,000 years ago with um some ancestors and the the Cro-Magnon people, a lot of your listeners have probably heard of them. They had these sort of low square orbits, and then we started to get more increase um superiorly inferiorly, top to bottom.
24:06Getting into the weeds a little too much here. Probably just lost a couple of your listeners, but >> um >> It's very interesting.
24:11>> Beyond that, um there's just a number of other things, too.
24:15Our bodies have changed. We've sort of gotten um smaller. There's been a decrease in robusticity over the last 30,000 years.
24:23>> We have?
24:23>> Yeah.
24:24Yeah. And >> Has that quick question, I'm sorry, cuz like we get lost in in timelines where when you think 10 years ago, you can relate to it, right? And then you think 50 years ago, you can't relate to it. 100 years, it's almost like time gets exponential in how we appreciate it, if you understand what I mean. So if I look at something that objectively compared to the history of the Earth is not long ago, but for me is a long time ago, which would be 150 years ago. I don't have the numbers on me offhand, but I know like human beings were were in height and weight on average at that time. So, are we saying that the weight
25:00has changed the height and weight has changed down over time, but it's not necessarily linear? Sometimes it goes a little lower and then comes back up higher?
25:07>> Yeah, that's a fantastic question and and you've framed it perfectly, too, because we we see both. We do see an increase and decrease in height evolutionarily. Uh cuz yeah, we're when we're talking about these Australopithecines, they're about 3 and 1/2 ft tall. Really diminutive, tiny creatures that got preyed on by all kinds of different animals.
25:26And then we started to get larger. We have this uh fossil called KNM-WT 15,000. It was a Homo erectus.
25:32>> KNM-WT 15,000.
25:34>> its catalog number.
25:35>> [laughter] >> That's its That's if you wanted to find it in the museum, Kenya National Museum.
25:40It was found in West Turkana. It's the 15 >> It sounds like a Bond villain's weapon, but okay.
25:45>> It would be a cool band name, too. Yeah.
25:47I mean, nobody would ever come see it cuz they couldn't remember it, but >> [laughter] >> That's almost as bad as extra tempestuous for a six-year-old.
25:55>> Um but no, that's that's the catalog number, but it was a Homo erectus from 1.5 million years ago. And this dude was big. Like he was only 11 years old when he died. It's thought he died from um a carry a cavity.
26:08And it created an infection.
26:10>> Oh, wow.
26:11>> And and we can cure these things now pretty easily, but they didn't have dental medicine 1.5 million years ago.
26:17So, homeboy died at 11 years old. And so, we can project what he would have looked like if he got to be to a mature age, and he would have been about 6 ft 1.
26:29>> Mhm.
26:29>> Strong body build. Uh the postcranial morphology is almost identical to ours.
26:34There's There's differences, you know, it's more similar to a Neanderthal of sorts.
26:38>> Um can you I'm sorry to get into the weeds, but can you explain how it's more similar to a Neanderthal?
26:43>> Just because of the robusticity. Cuz Neanderthals were like hefty. Their bones were big. Um they just they were built for a cold environment. Even though this individual, Turkanaboy, as he's known, which is way easier than KNMWT 15,000.
26:57Um even though he was 11, he was still beefy, stocky, you know? So, it's it But that 6'1" height, if that's an accurate projection, indicates we're already within and above the range of modern humans. I think the average today for males is about 5'9" or 5'10" or something, depending on what part of the world you're in.
27:17With that said, there is oscillation, what we call diachronic changes, too. And that's one thing that one of my first research projects at Ohio University was to study people's occupations and changes over about a 100 year period. And there's massive change. You You look at the depression, people got a lot shorter.
27:36Come out of the depression, there's a boom time, people get taller.
27:39>> What?
27:39>> And you can see it within this. Yeah, there's a guy named I think Richard Steckel is his name at Ohio State who did way more research on this than we did. We cited him a lot, but we're also contributing to it. And And yeah, it's crazy. Like it happens fast. You know, when we go through a depression or a recession, and people are cutting back on nutrient intake, I mean, that's affecting their children instantly.
27:59>> Whoa.
27:59>> And then those kids grow up and they're shorter. Um so, there's diachronic changes, also evolutionary change. Um but with regard to future humans, you know, some are described as short greys, whether those are our descendants or avatars or sort of biological droids, it's hard to say cuz some don't have genitalia. Kind of need genitalia to make more babies, unless something's making you. And I kind of think that's the case with these ones, the the sort of >> Something's making you?
28:27>> Yeah, the the [ __ ] ones are probably made by a future human who no longer is making robots. Like it ain't Elon Musk making something that needs oiled and, you know, breaks down mechanically all the time, but it's probably the extension of our gene engineering into the future where you just create something that can do all of this stuff for you. Send them in first to get somebody if you're abducting an individual and they're, you know, big scary person, send them in first. And they're more expendable because they're something you created for this purpose.
28:58And if you look at Whitley Strieber's account, he sort of describes these small beings as the muscle behind the operation.
29:05>> For people out there who haven't seen Danny Jones' podcast with Whitley, which was great episode, can you just explain you mentioned him a couple times there, can you just explain who he is and what his experience was?
29:15>> Yeah, phenomenal individual. Um brief summary, he had a cabin in upstate New York.
29:21Had [clears throat] some strange experiences with people at his house, so there were other witnesses, lights would come on. Uh I thought his roof was on fire and >> [gasps] >> and then we went to investigate and light turns off. Uh not long after that, he uh had a shotgun by his bed.
29:37Armed the whole house with an alarm system cuz he was freaked out. Like he knew something was happening.
29:42And then um when he was first taken, he sat up in bed and he sees this this small creature, like what I was talking about, sort of the big head, small face, but wearing a kind of armor.
29:54And it it runs toward him and all of a sudden he's asleep. And then he ends up um outside. He's interestingly sitting in a little beam of light. There's snow all around, but there's no snow where they're sitting. And it's it's cold, but it's not as cold as it would be, you know, outside in the situation. Um but there he starts to see other types as well. Uh he's always with these the the muscle of the operation as he describes it, but he as he ascends into the ship, he starts to encounter uh a woman, a female presence. And what's interesting is in these cases, even when these um beings are seemingly so different from
30:31us, we can still sense kind of their soul or their personality, something like a gender almost transcends the physical form to to extent. Um but he he's in contact with this woman and then he goes on to have a lot of other experiences, even has sex with her once that he writes about in a different book that he co-authored with Jeff Jeffrey Kripal called the Supernatural, I think it is.
30:55But importantly, he he sees different forms, four different types on the ship.
31:00And and that's really common thing across various experiencer accounts is that there are different forms often times working together, sometimes even with people just normal everyday people in military garb, like Air Force uniforms, basically.
31:17>> things that range from literally human looking to grays to mantids or stuff like that.
31:24>> know if he ever described anything like that. Some of them he described as looking oriental, that they had eyes, face, everything just like ours, but essentially, I think he said they were slanted. So they looked like ours, but a little bit more oriental or what we would say East Asian looking. Um, and then yeah, the the woman, the taller woman, to get back to height, she was taller, had grayish, gray alien type characteristics, but was in charge of the operation. She had a higher consciousness, telepathy, but then there were these ones that he called the muscle of the operation, too, that were,
32:04I've come to think, possibly manufactured.
32:07Um, and this is, you know, obviously we can't know until we have them, and maybe we do have them, and maybe that's a part of these crash retrievals that we could go look at them and study them and see if there is a difference between ones that are reproducing themselves and ones that are created in the image of those in our future, if they are future humans, who are making them to perform various tasks. And I would love to do that.
32:30>> Yeah.
32:31Let's put a pin in that, cuz I do want to come to UFO crash retrievals later, but I I want to stay with some of the experience or stuff. So you you would said I think it was in in your extra-terrestrial book.
32:43You would said something in the range of like 90% or something like that of people who report being abducted claim it was a positive experience.
32:53>> Yeah, I mean there's some qualifiers to that.
32:56>> [cough and clears throat] >> Also.
32:56>> Um well, first off, what you're referencing is the Dr. Edgar Mitchell free study. It's a survey of experiences.
33:04At the time they published that in 2019, they had 3,500 individuals. There's and I always try to acknowledge problems with methodologies and there are issues with surveys. Uh people can lie, they can distort the truth, sometimes they don't understand what is the truth. Um these are people who are willing to talk. You know, some people are less willing to talk. So there could be inherent biases on those too. 3,500 is a a decent sample size.
33:30It's the largest for something like this. But there are um they have added I think they're up above 5,000 now cuz they're continuing the study. It's also important to talk about the sample. This is a multilingual international sample.
33:43It's not just a group of, you know, dudes from Omaha or something. Like it's a pretty broad sample of individuals. So we can glean something from that.
33:52Um and yeah, so individuals importantly and one of the main reasons I I reference this study is is to talk about the types, like what we're talking about right now. And the majority that are seen are described as human.
34:07>> Human?
34:07>> Yeah. No, human.
34:08>> Literally human?
34:09>> Yeah. Not even human looking. And this was something I I sort of I had I I screwed this up in my first book going to my second book cuz I really just focused on the Grays and I didn't show just how much variation there was or I was mostly just talking about how could we get there? What are some of the forces in our evolutionary past that would lead us to look like this.
34:30>> And obviously, you know, it would be easy to say we live in space, we live underground, it's dark, that's why our eyes get bigger.
34:36Um I maybe, I don't know, but I try to stay away from speculating about those things and just focus on dominant trends that we can understand. But in this study, the the top reported type was human.
34:50And then after that was the short greys that we were discussing, uh tall greys and then hybrids.
34:57And what I always point out >> I'm sorry.
34:59>> Just a combination of the two forms. So So like one one example is um Travis Walton. When he was [clears throat] taken, uh most likely an ambulance call cuz he was shocked by this craft. He wakes up in this bed with two short greys around him.
35:13Um didn't have a chance to check in their pants. It'd be really interesting to know if they had genitalia or not because it might help answer this question is are they all droids if we see the short greys or are they just creating them in their image like we do with robots now.
35:28But then he he escaped. He went in the control room, he's pushing buttons.
35:32They're like, "No, bro, don't do that cuz you're going to crash our ship."
35:35Um and then he was approached by a man who looks just like a man, you know, tall, blonde hair, blue eyes, stocky build, and then encountered uh other women and men who he said had sort of a familial connection. Like they all kind of looked the same.
35:52So that would be an example of what we consider the hybrids, ones with sort of the the archetypal grey alien form but also a human form.
36:01>> Right.
36:01>> And we can come back to that too, like that hybridization program is is kind of an important aspect of all of this. But >> How I'm sorry, Michael, I just there's so many things here. I I don't want to get lost in them, but from a detail perspective, like how can we explain seeing in the same place human, literally human-looking, and greys if based and maybe I misunderstood this, but based on what you were saying earlier about time over time and things changing, that would suggest that those two beings are from very different future realms, meaning one I'm just drawing random numbers out, one could be 200 years from now, another
36:40could be 200,000 years from now.
36:42>> Yeah, exactly. And I I coined a term for that, uh, temporal ancestry.
36:47So, we talk about geographic ancestry now, where we have people from sub-Saharan Africa that have, um, sort of lighter body builds, darker skin, so they've evolved to the the climate and the the UVA light in that area. They evolved more melanin because of that.
37:03People from East Africa or East Asia, rather, Native Americans. So, we can see snapshots of our evolutionary history now in this present time.
37:12>> Yes.
37:13>> In these cases of close contact where they see different forms with marked differences in their morphology, I I think it's exactly that, like what you just said, that it's people coming back from different times or working together from different times for likely different purposes. They may have a variable reasons for wanting to come back and collect data on the human past, but they're likely all doing it at the same time to be less intrusive, to disrupt us and our timeline to a a lesser extent. But, what I always point out is based on the study, so you've got the human, humanoid, human-looking,
37:52human form, short greys, tall greys, hybrids. Every single one of those is an upright walking biped.
38:01>> Mhm.
38:01>> That's the trait that defines our lineage. We are bipedal. And I've said a hundred times that if what's getting out of these ships is some kind of squid or octopus or spider-looking creature, I never would have given two shits about this because there's no connection to us. But, that trait alone, and and you [clears throat] could go past that, you could talk about the the tetrapod characteristics having four limbs, which goes back 400 million years on this planet.
38:27>> 400 million?
38:28>> 400 million. We share that with them.
38:30Pentadactyly having five digits at the end of each limb. There's some variation there. Some say they see four, but for the most part they have five.
38:38>> How do we know it's 400 million? That's so long ago.
38:40>> The fossil record. We can see when that four-limb characteristic started. And then uh Darwin actually pointed out back in the the mid-1800s that that makes no damn sense. Like you use the same four limbs to do all these different things.
38:54Whales got them and uh bats got them and and we and horses and cows and all these ungulates. But it would make more sense if we just developed, you know, if an elephant eight limbs instead of four.
39:06But we take the same four-limb body plan from 400 million years ago and just modify it for our purposes.
39:11>> Mhm.
39:12>> That shows that we evolved together. We share a common ancestry, as we say.
39:17That's um a synapomorphy or a shared derived characteristic of all mammals that we are tetrapods. So, importantly, all walking upright, all bipedal, therefore we would classify them all as hominin. If we are reproducing with them, that's where the hybrid part comes in.
39:35Based on the biological classification of species concept, we're the same [ __ ] species. You can't reproduce with something that you don't share the requisite genes with in order to make an offspring. And so, there's a lot that indicates that they are us just from that alone. And that's, you know, speaking of terminology, like the extraterrestrial thing, I I also hate the NHI thing that we've developed, non-human intelligence.
39:59>> And it's meant to get away from extraterrestrial. It's meant to get away from alien.
40:04>> Well, why do you say that?
40:05>> a more general term. Because extraterrestrial pigeonholes the conversation.
40:10>> [clears throat] >> And I used to hate that term because it was like, "Oh, they must be from outer space." You do still hear people say that, but to a lesser extent than they do now, cuz everybody switched to NHI, which is great cuz it doesn't say extraterrestrial, but it also implicitly implies that they're not human. It's in the damn term. They even used that in the uh the Doctor Greer Mitchell study. They said, "When you're on the ship, did you have contact with a non-human intelligence?"
40:35First answer is human. So, even with that bias in the question, they still said they were human.
40:41>> Do you think that that that there's a potentially a purposeful reason for that?
40:44>> I do.
40:46Yeah. Um I [clears throat] I do think that it allows them to tell the truth that there's no evidence of a non-human intelligence. There's no evidence of extraterrestrials. I think they even did that in the Arrow report. I think they used that exact terminology. And a lot of people will write me like, "Bro, did you read this the way they phrased it?
41:05>> It's not a lie.
41:06>> a lie, you know?
41:08>> [laughter] >> They might be telling the truth, but damn, that's a subtle little lie if a subtle little way of telling the truth and allowing the potential reality of this to still exist.
41:21Yeah. No, I I think I mean, it's hard to say what the intent of these people is, and there's probably a lot of different people, different intentions working on this, but yeah, that's that's a very intuitive observation you had there cuz it could have been a lexicon thing to leave the door open.
41:36>> I want to go back to that example I gave a few minutes ago just to keep it simple to to stay with it where I talked about the humans that are maybe from 200 years from now or 2,000 years from now, whatever I said, and then the greys that might be from 200,000 years from now, and they're both working together. My question here is doesn't that technically make us present humans and maybe even past humans the people drawing the short end of the stick? Cuz like, they're all in on it together, but we're not. And And if so, why do you think that determination's made? Or let's throw another one in there. Are there potentially people who
42:12exist right now or have existed in the past century who are taking part in this stuff? That have ever been reported?
42:18>> Well, I think I think there are, absolutely. And I do think when people talk about seeing very modern humans and very modern military uniforms, that that it is us and it probably has been us for a while.
42:30And if you would have asked me this 5 years ago, I'd have been like, I don't know, that sounds a little crazy, it's a little conspiracy theory-ish.
42:37>> We're already down that rabbit hole, my friend.
42:38>> Yeah, probably been down there for a while. [laughter] Starting to get low on oxygen down here. I don't know how deep we went. Um but then you have people like Grusch coming out saying, oh, actually we we have been doing this for a while. If we're reverse engineering these things, if we're in contact with the people creating them, hypothetically if they are from our future, then yeah, you know, and what he talks about with the contracts that may have been made and meetings that may have happened and they're allowed to take us and sample our genetic material for their purposes, it it it really makes you wonder what
43:10the level of interaction is. And then when you have experiencers who are also describing seeing these people in the same types of uniform we see military members walking in now, you got to wonder if people are working with them.
43:21>> So, it could be.
43:22>> Yeah.
43:23>> Okay.
43:24Do you think Do you think that if people Let's just keep it in one place.
43:33If people in the Pentagon were aware that maybe it's what you say and it's future humans, do you think that that is part of the reason we see some of the similarities there as we do actually with your father, with his experience, where there's like the Collins elite in the Pentagon who's saying, oh, this is future humans, so, you know, they're [ __ ] with the occult or something like that and that goes against my biblical beliefs, so therefore we shouldn't look at it.
44:02>> Mhm.
44:03Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. I I think the people that are trying to put the UFO question in a religious box likely don't know who they are.
44:17That's just my guess. Because I think there's a lot If you know what it is, why would you have to try to cram this thing into your box of worldviews? I I think it would be easier to just open the box.
44:31>> Yeah.
44:31>> And I think that's [clears throat] a big part of this phenomenon as a whole is that we're all supposed to look at it, take it seriously, and widen our aperture to be able to include things that are more mysterious than what we thought was conventionally real, were allowed, or possible. And I think it's kind of been an aspect of the phenomenon the entire time.
44:51Now potentially more than ever, cuz we have the possibility that this will be acknowledged as real on a mass scale, but I think if we look back through time and and even in these these historical, biblical, religious accounts, there there's seemingly the the classic overused example is Ezekiel, but it's overused because it has a lot of elements of a real UFO encounter, very similar today. They had a different way of understanding reality back then. They could talk about wheels within wheels and burning embers and voices booming into their heads, like now we would say telepathy, counter-rotating flywheels to
45:29add stability and the electromagnetic force to add anti-gravity capabilities, lights on the outside. These are all conventionally understood terms now.
45:39Back then they weren't. So, they created the story, and that story got put into a book, and then you know.
45:45>> Can you explain that? The the Ezekiel account there?
45:49>> Um yeah, so it was basically what what I just mentioned. He He described it as humanoid form sitting on a throne, a dome above their head, a wheel within a wheel, um so some sort of rotation and burning embers. And then there's apparently some sort of telepathic communication that took place. What What's funny is I just did um a a shoot for a documentary last week, and the guy who was filming it read the original description of Ezekiel before all of the translations. His dad was super into this, and um really was interested in uh a lot like what Diana Pasulka is doing with going back to the original versions [snorts]
46:33of things. But his dad had done the same thing, and and his son, who I met, uh Jesse, who was doing the shoot, um had read these and said, "Bro, there's way more detail. Like this was a [ __ ] UFO sighting." And And you know, we we get the boiled-down version. We get It's like playing telephone through time. We have this version in the King James Bible or whatever. But I guess the original one was way more descriptive, and so yeah, I mean, if we can include that, it would seem to indicate that it's either a similar phenomenon, potentially the same phenomenon, appearing in different times throughout
47:08the past. And uh going to the future, we could see all of the variation, potentially, as the different forms that are existing to carry out these missions in the past, occasionally being a little more overt in their activities, potentially to have that carrot in front of us to make us question things, to acknowledge that there's things more mysterious than what we can understand, and to widen that aperture in the same way people are trying to do now in Congress, in not so much of the Collins elite. They're kind of doing the opposite. But I think we're sort of at this this culmination point where all of that
47:48carrot and stickying is leading to the place where all of the carrots are sitting in a giant pile right in front of us, and we're so close to opening the door and and feasting on these delicious fruits of the the mysteries of the past.
48:02>> Do you think that there's also some weird I don't know, governmenty psyop-y type thing behind this? And and I have to ask that because you know, for so long they made the UFO phenomenon this cult-y, you know, like you were crazy if you talked about it topic for decades and decades and decades dating back forever.
48:23>> And then suddenly boom, 2017, [clears throat] you know what? Christopher Mellon nothing to see here. Remember the Mellon family is going to walk out of the Pentagon straight into New York Times and say, "Legally I'm allowed to give this to you. Here you go." You have all these people come out. I mean, I've had Lou Elizondo in here as well. It's fascinating to hear, but I wonder even when I sit across from a guy like Lou, how much of that is like it's an intel op versus what's true.
48:50>> Yeah.
48:51Yeah, it's it's a great way to approach it. And I think we all should. Cuz there's been disinformation for a long time. Like you have people like Richard Doty. I don't know much about him. I can't give his backstory, but I know um they [ __ ] up this Bennewitz guy and was meant to put misinformation and disinformation out. And that goes back to project sign, grudge, blue book. All of them manufactured the stigma so that we wouldn't talk about it. And it was really [ __ ] effective. Like they did a great job with that. It's still hard to talk about today. There's still this lingering stigma. I was invited to give
49:26a couple lectures in in university classes about this. And there's there's just an icky feeling when you first start doing it. Like they were really good at that.
49:34>> Yes.
49:34>> And it lasted. There's this cultural hangover that we're you know, popping aspirin trying to get rid of now because they really allowed us to think we shouldn't be talking about this. And that stigma, that shame that we feel was manufactured. It was put in place. And we're really trying to get past that now. And yeah, 2017 was a big step forward and there's continued to be steps forward. And I think the congressional hearings, whether we get anything out of it or not, I don't think it really matters. But what's important is that we're talking about it and we're taking it seriously. New York Times
50:08article brought a lot of people out.
50:10That first congressional hearing, I started meeting all kinds of people that were in positions of society that you wouldn't expect them to really be openly talking about this. But they're like, "Hang on. So, we have these pilots, top pilots." Well, I I believe um Fravor was even like the the instructor. I don't know what they're called. I'm not an Air Force or Navy guy. But um like a top top gun pilots who know the difference between something prosaic and something weird saying this is a weird thing and we're telling you about this. And it allowed people to take that seriously, A because of who they were, but B because they're
50:50under oath. Mhm. They were under oath saying this is real. And it takes that for people, unfortunately, cuz there's so much data out there. There's so much evidence. But for so many folks, it's going to take the government being like, "Hey, this is real. You're allowed to think it's real now cuz we're the ones that told you it wasn't for 75 years."
51:08And it's unfortunate cuz we shouldn't need that. If you have an open mind, you can study this, all of the different elements of it, and come to your own conclusion. But for so many people, and likely it's cuz there's so many other things to focus on. We're constantly being bombarded with stimulus. There's all these distractions. It's actually pretty negative when people don't have distractions and they only focus on the UFO phenomenon, too. If you've ever been on UFO Twitter, you encounter that. But I do think there's this point where we're starting to get the the stick that carries the carrot is getting
51:42shorter.
51:43And I've I've long thought that this move toward disclosure is not the government doing it, but the visitors themselves.
51:53>> The visitors themselves.
51:54>> they're the ones that are leading this charge toward disclosure. I I don't have any evidence. It's sort of an intuitive sense I have and from looking at all of the different aspects of what's happening and how it's been happening, I get the sense that we're reaching a point, a sort of nexus in space-time time-space, where we are going to have broad awareness of this.
52:16And they said, "Catch up."
52:19Not wait up, catch up. So, I think Congress is trying to get to a point where they're not caught with their pants down and they've put in place some broad awareness or at least presented the information in some capacity in a public forum bipartisanly, which is weird as [ __ ] Like, what else in this world right now, in this country, is bipartisan?
52:41>> Not at all.
52:41>> Other than this UFO other than this UFO question.
52:44>> Yeah, that makes it tingle.
52:46>> that seems to indicate that >> Makes it tingle a little bit.
52:48>> Yeah. Yeah, I'm tingling all over right [laughter] now thinking about the fact that there could be something that unites this country. It's insane. And it's UFOs.
52:58You know, I think that's an under-appreciated aspect of this. People do talk about it, but that's that's crazy. It's cool.
53:05Um so, yeah, I don't know. I I do get the sense that we're we're sort of being led, we as in Congress in the United States, is being led to do something ahead of something that is coming.
53:16>> Yeah, so I mean, the the jokes in my head go to so, Luis Elizondo is a future human or people like this are future human. I know it's not what you're saying.
53:26>> No, not at all.
53:26>> But, you're saying that like the forces of that could be manipulating this type of situation to be spoken through people like that.
53:35>> Yeah, and I don't even like the word manipulation per se just because it does have a negative connotation, but a guiding of sorts.
53:43Historically, it was guiding away from.
53:46Now, even if they are meant to be um disseminating information, I think it's less disinformation and misinformation, which was what they were doing over the last 70 years, and now it's probably just information.
54:01>> Mhm.
54:02>> But it is guiding, it is changing, but then it gets into the question, well, who are they working for? Why are they doing this? I I don't know. I can't speak to that, but it does seem like there's a push.
54:13And I think it's less of a push and more of a pull from the visitors themselves.
54:18>> Right. My friend Jesse Michaels was actually at one of the recent hearings and and the great guy, but so smart about this stuff, so well read on all of it. And the thing that annoyed him that makes me double take on some of this stuff is the fact that he was like, all these congressmen have no idea what they're talking about. Like the most basic [ __ ] Like they don't they don't have a clue. So, they're so easy to be and again, I know you don't like the word, but they're so easy to be manipulated or something like that cuz they don't even know where to begin with it. Like, what has your experience been
54:51in like some of the private meetings with some of these guys that you've been invited into?
54:55>> Yeah, so um two things there. One, I do think they don't know. Most people don't. I don't know either. I mean, there's so much convoluted [ __ ] involved with this.
55:07Nobody can know all of it, but there is a certain level of awareness about the historical aspects of this phenomenon that I do think anybody has access to.
55:16And be discerning, of course, and obviously be aware that there was disinformation for a long period of time. But with that said, these congresspeople were asking pretty informed questions considering how much space this takes up on their server.
55:32Very tiny amount of space considering everything else that they have to do in these jobs. I was really impressed by the level of awareness they did have relative to most people and relative to what I expected of them in those positions. But you're right, they don't have >> low.
55:49>> The The bar was low. Yeah.
55:51>> [laughter] >> But I was pleasantly surprised, not just cuz the bar was low, but I was like, "Wow, they're talking about things that actually do kind of matter and it's not It's not like they're just trying to get information for the first time." Clearly some of them read up before asking these questions. And that's the meeting that we just had. They wanted to have a few academics together to It was the guys I I published this paper with recently about cryptoterrestrials.
56:16>> Cryptoterrestrials?
56:17>> Yeah. And And so they came across the paper, they reached out to us, "Okay, can we have this conversation cuz we want to ask informed questions?"
56:25That's great. That's trying to educate yourself ahead of something where your education can help you and the American public get better information because they took the time to learn about it first. And And so that is happening. You know, and Jesse's right, like they can't know everything and if they did, they could ask better questions, but I think they were they were doing okay. And hopefully with this one happening right now, they're doing even better cuz they had more time to think about it and they had access to information at first hearing that they could then build on going into the second one. Um but, you know, more
56:58whistleblowers, hopes, people that actually were interacting with these things. What I would love to see is them bringing the people that are actually hiding this [ __ ] in the first place, the members of the military-industrial complex who have a very good reason to keep this stuff from entering the public sphere because of how disruptive it might be to their industries and how they're trying to protect their intellectual property and all of these ramifications. Again, that gets into implications, which comes after proving and what are they and what might they be and all these other things. But And And likely these people
57:31would be like Dave Chappelle in that skit from the 2000s, you know, slapping the table, I'll plead the fifth. I'll plead [laughter] the fifth. They're probably not going to say anything, but those are the those are the people that should be sitting in front of Congress getting grilled right now cuz they're the ones that are hiding all of this.
57:46Why are you hiding it? What do you not want us to know?
57:49>> Yeah, I I think it was also Jesse when I was talking with him, he he was considering what the intelligence reading procedure was and the thing he talked about was compartmentalization.
58:02And there was someone else I was talking about this with, but I can't remember who it was and they said the same thing.
58:06And stovepiping is a huge problem.
58:08Right. So, you know, it'd be one thing if like this entire group, you know, maybe at the top of the Pentagon knew everything and knew all the secrets, but in reality, there's all these little secret teams that meet in skiffs on one topic or two topics or something that comprise, you know, the full thing comprises 10,000 things. And so, you could have people who have these small little breadcrumbs where it's like imagine if you just found a few puzzle pieces on the ground. You can't do anything with it. But if you had the full set of puzzle of pieces to the puzzle, you could build the puzzle. So,
58:44what can they even reveal?
58:45>> Yeah, that's true. I mean, the stovepiping is certainly a huge issue regarding the way all of these things are put in a different pieces that yeah, you don't see the whole picture. That's the whole reason they do it, but yeah, that's a great extension of that that it goes into trying to get information about it, too, cuz you're asking somebody that does know something, but it's one small piece.
59:06>> Guys, if you're still watching this video and you haven't yet hit that subscribe button, please take 2 seconds and go hit it right now. Thank you.
59:14>> I I recently uh uh uh uh mentioned to this Congressperson or chief of staff that I know someone who is a part of that same thing and they're ready to be a whistleblower. They want to talk about it, but you're right.
59:27How much does that contribute? It's another data point, though. It does actually help them see, "Okay, this is happening here, too. And how does it relate to this? And how does it relate to that?" But still, you're not going to see the whole picture. And And that's what they want. They've done a fantastic job of of keeping it that way. And yeah, kudos to them. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full episode, that link is in the description below or
59:59right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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