0:01Mr. James C. Fox, it's been a couple years since you and I recorded those two podcasts when you had a moment of contact out. Yes. And or mo I always say a moment of contact. It's moment of contact. That's way better. Yes. But obviously since then there has been a lot going on in your life personally and you have been making a brand new documentary in the process that has now come out I think like a month ago. Been doing the podcast tour and all that.
0:24There is a lot to unpack from that film.
0:27the program. The link will be down in the description of that as well. But you have brought here today Mr. Jason Sans as well. Yes. Who was featured in the documentary and has been in the middle of like the internet controversy around some of the things that you have come out publicly I believe in April and then extensively through the documentary. So we will get into all that today. But it's great to have you back sir up at Hoken now.
0:50>> Thanks for having me back on. I um I one thing I want to say is that we can get into this later.
0:56I wanted to provide uh Mr. Sans an opportunity to provide some defense uh you know provote provide some of his credentials, his military records, things of that nature because I am the one that accidentally ousted his name.
1:10He actually wasn't intending to come forward publicly. So, I owe that to him an opportunity and and because of my mistake, um he's had to, you know, face some of the consequences and it's been rough for him and uh and you know, he's I've called him up. What are you talking about? You sound like a crazy guy.
1:30Please stop. you know, but uh but I do want to I'm I'm I'm excited that we have this opportunity to let him at least have a voice and and speak a little bit about uh you know, his uh his his background and what his experience, but we can get in that later.
1:45>> Absolutely. We have the military records here and everything. So, we'll we'll get through all that. We'll go through your whole story. But, as far as the the program goes, first of all, great documentary as always. You did a great job. But this is something we had talked about this when you were here with us last like you were in the process of making it. But what made you decide like after doing moment of contact which is a specific case down in Brazil. What made you decide to come up and really go straight into DC and and try to focus on the government angle more than anything with with the UP phenomenon?
2:16>> Well, I think it was kind of a natural progression when I did the phenomenon, right? There was some discussion of crash retrieval. there was Roswell and there was hint uh sprinkled throughout a couple of hints. One of which was when uh Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid uh admitted on camera during my sitdown interview with him that what had been released the the the 2017 uh New York Times article revealing the secret Pentagon UFO program and and some of the tapes that were walked out of the Pentagon was merely the tip of the iceberg. Right. So uh that was a very profound and big significant statement
2:52by the former Senate majority leader. I mean he was a household name right? So so when I uh when I did moment of contact that was I in my opinion and I could be wrong.
3:04I think it may be a little bit ahead of its time because I well because >> I remember people calling me going, "James, you just uh you have this unprecedented level of access with Intel folks. Senator Harry Reid just publicly endorsed your movie that you feature Close Encounters of the Third Kind in.
3:24You've really been pushing the envelope.
3:25You've got a level of acceptance and and access that you're quite honestly going to jeopardize by reporting on this alleged UFO crash case in Virginia, Brazil, where these live aliens are walking around the town being [laughter] captured. You're going to sound like a nutcase and people are going to say, "Up the dosage of the medication that you're not on, right?" [snorts] Probably rightfully so. [laughter] Re, you know, honestly. So, they were like, "Are you sure this is what you want to do?" And I was like, "You know what? I've been I I totally understand that position because I was there.
3:58I remember when I was investigating when I was I was mapping out my second Let me repeat that my second UFO documentary.
4:07It turned out to be out of the blue. I never have a title for things when I first get started [clears throat] on them.
4:11>> And I had a partner Tim Coleman and it was probably 1999, maybe 2000, but probably 1999. And we were mapping out the film like a concept ideas. I do broad brush strokes. It's like, "Oh, we want to focus on Bentwaters and let's let's let's revisit this amazing case in in in uh Phoenix, 1997, March 13th, that massive flyover." And then he he goes, "Oh, yeah, mate. There's this bloody amazing case that takes place in in Brazil with these live aliens and this UFO crash and they're walking through the bloody town." And I'm thinking to myself, >> "That's Charlie and it's always sunny.
4:46They're through the town." [laughter] >> I'm not kidding you. I literally said to myself, I said to myself, Oh my god, I got to pick a new partner. I just [laughter] This guy's this guy's lost his mind. I'm not kidding you. I was like, "Oh my god, I made a dreadful mistake." [laughter] And I thought to myself, I'm not going to give this case one second of my time.
5:08Okay? Because come on, man. A tall tale UFO crash, live aliens. Are you kidding me? Multiple live aliens.
5:17>> How could the whole world not know about it? This is impossible. This is an utter and complete waste of time. No.
5:24When I finished, what was it? Years later, 22 years later, 23 years later, I finished the movie. Tim was living in Egypt and he reached out to me. I hadn't heard from him in a while. He goes, "Bloody well, mate. You just made a film about that entire case that I told you about in the late '9s. What the bloody hell?" And I He goes, "You didn't believe me and you thought I was bloody crazy." And I was like, "Yes, I did. And I'm sorry, [laughter] and I'm going to give you a special thanks credit." So, I did. I gave him a special thanks credit. [laughter] But isn't that funny? It was like, so anyway, so
6:05cuz people [snorts] ask me, I was like, "Well, how did you get into the program?" It's like, well, I never anticipated when I made moment of contact about a crash retrieval program, which I found out very late in the game that the United States government was involved because >> with with Virginia.
6:20>> Yeah. I kind of heard like rumblings of it, but while we were there the last time, in fact, Allessie was there with us.
6:26>> Allessie was producing the document. He was down there in the trenches. He was down there in the trenches. We almost got shot in the face. Yes, he was right there.
6:34>> He filmed that.
6:35>> He did. And also he had the best haircut of all time [laughter] is is the greatest thing I've ever seen.
6:40So when you're watching Moment of Contact and you see the dude with the clipboarding firehead or whatever, that's a lesson.
6:46>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh that was probably there were there were two times when I had my life threatened in production.
6:53One was when I was releasing photographs that were given to me about the fishing community when I did a film on the BP oil spill and they were using unprecedented amounts of correit and the guy head of fisheries uh gave me these these these images that quite frankly were going to devastate his community.
7:11>> But he was like I can't in good faith let the general public not know about what's going on because of the poison.
7:17And he said you reveal my identity boy. I'll hunt you down and slit your throat. Do we [laughter] have an understanding? I swear to God, he said that to me. And I was like, >> gosh, I believe you.
7:27>> Yes, sir, we do. [laughter] >> And then the second time was when >> they NEVER GOING TO FIND YOU.
7:34>> YEAH, DUDE. It was like Alabama. He's like, we'll hunt you down and sl your throat. Do we have I said, [laughter] "Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
7:42>> We definitely have understanding."
7:44[laughter] >> Guys, before we go on here, I want to make sure you know this is the first of two episodes that are coming with James and Jason. The second episode is coming Friday at 12:00 p.m. Eastern after this video was put out. So, two days after this one. And essentially, this first one is an hour and a half covering the program and giving a little bit of color commentary background on Jason. And the second one is going to be almost 3 hours with James and Jason where we go through Jason's entire life story from childhood on. I had announced this on social media over the weekend over on X, but I know
8:14you guys on YouTube didn't know that.
8:15So, wanted to make sure you knew another episode was coming. If you want to check it out before it drops, it is available on Patreon right now. Link in my description. Back to the episode.
8:24>> So, so anyway, and then the next time, of course, I didn't I didn't I don't speak Portuguese. I mean, I could extract some words, but not in that moment when we confront the alleged driver, Eric Lopes, at his at his home, which I found out all the hardcore Brazilian researchers, one of which would packed a gun everywhere he went.
8:43Pacini was like, "You went to his house.
8:44Are you out of your mind?" [laughter] No, none of us would go to his house. I was like, well, nobody told me that.
8:50>> And this is one of the witnesses to be clear.
8:52>> This is one of the witnesses that allegedly was driving the car during the second capture of a live alien. Yes.
8:56>> Wow.
8:57>> God, it even sounds crazy.
8:58>> It does. It does sound crazy. I know.
9:00Anyway, so my point is this.
9:03I could have never in a hundred million years after all the push back I got when I said I was going to make this documentary on on this alleged scratch case that happened in 1996 in Virginia, Brazil, that months after releasing the film, there was going to be an open congressional hearing with a bipartisan group of lawmakers listening to the testimony of a gentleman, high intelligence officer under oath saying that there's a crash retrieval program because I found out the Americans involvement. Again, I'd heard little rumblings of it over the 12-year period, but the most compelling aspect was that
9:42the flight control officer came forward publicly on camera in a podcast saying, "I saw Usf and I was like, Usaf, a United States Air Force >> plane coming in without Brazilian government authorization."
9:55>> That's you guys.
9:55>> And he was not supposed to let the thing land. and he uh and then a a highle government off. This is what he says on camera. This guy Marco, I'm trying to think of his name, but and when you're with the um like the police department, you're with the military in Brazil. If you're with the fire department, you're with the military in Brazil. You're air control flight control officer, you're with the military in Brazil, right? So this guy sees his plane coming in, he's like, "They don't have authorization.
10:17I'm not supposed to let this plane land.
10:19It's USAF Air United States Air Force January 20th, 1996 coming into Campenis.
10:24It was going to land in Sa Paulo. Then it stopped and and it diverted went to camp penis and a military officer. I know it's funny. Campus virgin.
10:33>> The number of times he said that in episode 139 and people were like I feel like he's saying penis every time.
10:38[laughter] >> Can't penis. I know. Can't make up. So I know I know it sounds silly but but um anyway he said that high higher level military officer came in let the plane land. Plane landed. Uh I was not sure if it was one helicopter or two helicopters. went over to Virginia, loaded some stuff on, came back, loaded the plane, boo back to the United States. I was like, "Oh, wow. That really solidifies my belief that the Americans were involved." So, now it's personal, right? So, when I'm starting an investigation, I was already going to go to DC and start asking questions. One of, if not the most common DMs I get on
11:15Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't
11:42already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. But David Grush opened the door for me.
11:51>> Yeah.
11:52>> Like it was wide open. Now I'm damn straight gonna ask those questions because I came to that conclusion not because he said it but because my boots on the ground in and which is what I think is the best case in modern history because most of the people are still alive.
12:07>> Yeah. It was really cool to see this like as your friend in real time because you went down to DC pregrush. you were there in like February 2023 getting initial interviews and things like that and then it's almost like this movie you were working on the stage of life set perfectly and you're like >> unbelievable >> I can get all this now >> unbelievable I know >> little bit of divine intervention >> could have never and not only that but who could have possibly have staged or orchestrated a drone invasion a UAP invasion to coincide with the release of my movie people were calling me going what kind of butt did you have you
12:40raised to do that >> much appreciated [laughter] >> you I had people calling me going, "How did you orchestrate a a drone invasion?"
12:47[laughter] >> Actually, you know, James, a little side note here, I just don't want to get this lost in the picture because you're such a humble guy and you've only said like a little bit publicly, but obviously us all talking Allessie, you and me, behind the scenes over the last couple years, we were aware of some of the things you were dealing with from a production standpoint >> to get this done. But for people out there who want some details now that it is behind you despite everything you also had to give up as well. But >> you know what what what went down there?
13:18Because this this last documentary, Moment of Contact, you came on my podcast. It really exploded and then Joe Rogan had you on and it went to a whole different stratosphere literally right behind Avatar Worldwide and then suddenly they're like, "Oh, we can't pay you."
13:33>> Yeah. I have to tell you about this game-changing product I use before a night out with drinks. It's called Ziotics Pre-alcohol. Pre-alcohol is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works.
13:49When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut. It's this byproduct, not your dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day.
13:58Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make Ziotics your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Last year when I first heard about Zbiotics, I was a little bit skeptical. I'm like, could this really work? So, I had my buddy's wedding and I figured, let's give it a try. So, I drank my Ziotics before we went out. We had a great night full of fun festivities and a lot of other things. And the next morning, I woke up feeling pretty good. I was able to work out, go for a walk, take some calls, clean my apartment. Life was good. So
14:26whether it's vacations, weddings, birthdays, reunions, or just a good night out, get the most out of your upcoming plans by stocking up on your pre-alcohol now. You can do that by going to zibotics.com/julian to get 15% off your first order using code julian, ju at checkout. Pre-alcohol is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied with your product, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. So, remember to head on over to zbiotics.com/julian and use code julian at checkout to get 15% off your first order. Thank you to Zbiotics for sponsoring this episode and our good times.
15:02>> So, that's just one of the things I was dealing with. So, um excuse me. The production company that I'd signed a deal with that probably remain nameless.
15:13>> Whatever. You can look that stuff up cuz uh [laughter] >> we're going to take the bat out later.
15:22So, so they got p they got they got acquired by a larger company and the larger company stopped paying royalties or first they were really late then they got later and I was getting really nervous you know I was like you know oh everything's going to be fine don't worry you know it's a trans we're just we're transferring all the stuff over and there's a little transition period and it's just a little bit of a hiccup and everything's going to iron itself out everything's going to be fine well I didn't feel that way. So that starts happening and I rely and they had directly or indirectly all my movies
15:57distributed through this company distribution company all of them right.
16:01So I had the phenomenon. I had moment of contact out of the blue. I know what I saw. 50 years to denial. They were through indirectly through another individual. But in any case, so this starts happening and while I'm trying to get interviews on the hill, paralleling this disaster nightmare. I'm trying to get interviews on the Hill and I'm literally having to send photos of production stills of me making the phenomenon because staff members of of Congress were going, "No, hang on a second. This person said they made the phenomenon. Who? Who? What?" I'm like, "No, I made the phenomenon. What are you
16:37talking about? This guy said what?" And they're like, "Yeah, well, he already came through and interviewed." I was like, "No, I" and I was sending literally production stills. And then there were all these military folks, intel folks that were told not to meet with me, to meet with this other individual who will remain nameless. But this is going on. So I'm getting blocked. I'm getting all my financial like support, all my finances completely devastated.
17:05>> And then paralleling that, I'm getting someone who's claiming responsibility for having done the phenomenon, who's in the process of getting all these interviews on the Hill, and I'm having to explain who the hell I am. Well, thank God Christopher Melon stepped in and started to straighten the the truth out. No, James made the phenomenon.
17:20>> We love the Melon family. They're always going to straighten it out. [laughter] >> Well, Chris Melon really stepped up the plate for me and I was really grateful for to having him to do that. So, he was telling people, "No, James made it >> and then all these intel folks that were um that were told not to meet with me."
17:37It was just a nightmare. I just thought it felt like I was being extinguished. I mean, I just was like I remember >> staring at the ceiling, the level of stress. I'm seeing the sales report come in and remind you, I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars making every movie, right? So, I'm always majorly in debt when I finish a movie >> and and u I'm seeing all these sales reports coming in and I'm not getting paid and I'm not getting paid and I'm not getting paid. Now, I'm borrowing money to sue the company and I'm trying to make this film and I remember like staring at the ceiling. I'm not kidding.
18:08This was so devastating. And I'm staring at the ceiling trying to go to sleep at night. I'm drinking a whiskey just to like calm my nerves. And I'd fall asleep and I'd wake up at like 4:00 in the morning and I was like, "Oh my god, I had the worst nightmare. God, thank God that was a oh my god." No. And then I'd slowly wake up and this was happening week after week. And the problem is is like I didn't have any end in sight.
18:29There was no resolution in sight. I didn't know how it was going to play out, right?
18:34So, I I actually called a buddy of mine and I borrowed $50,000 from him so I could sue the company. I was just trying to go through all the different, you know, I didn't know what to do. And um finally the lawyer, and this went on for so many months. I won't bore your audience with the details, but finally this lawyer, buddy, my buddy Jesse, calls me and he goes, "Look, bro, I'd like to continue taking your money, but I'm just telling you where this is headed. I'm looking at their financials and this is not going in the right direction. What's going to happen is they're about to declare bankruptcy and
19:05then your assets which are their assets are now going to be in the hands of another company that you have no leverage with >> and you're lower on the >> lower the totem pole and now you're only not only going to owe me a bunch of money you're never going to get that money they owe you which is lottery money right >> and I hate to say this James but I'm just going to give you the best advice play the t play the game on the board not the one in your head >> it's a good lawyer >> take take take take this deal, sign off all you're never going to get this money again. I need you to respond via email
19:35that you understand that you will never ever get this money. It's gone forever.
19:39I have to get this distribution company to send their legal department has to send all the various platforms a legal letter to pull them down. You think if they start pay if they stop paying me that it automatically the rights would revert back to Nom [laughter] no. Every month I'm watching those sales reports and they're going in the in the in the in the pocket of a billionaire.
20:01Oh god, the level of frustration I was experienced is like off the charts, man.
20:05>> Yeah. And I I I want people to understand that, too. I mean, they're hearing it from you right now, but like, >> you know, for you to have all the success of that film and essentially never see more than a couple dimes from it, >> I still owe a h 100,000 on that film.
20:20And I I actually I actually was going to pay that back to uh one of my uh producers, this guy Donnie, and um Donniey's been great to me over the dec over over well over a decade. And I spent it thinking I had money coming in.
20:36And then and then he's like, "Well, why'd you spend I" I was like, "Well, I spent it on the program thinking that that I didn't know I was going to get ripped off. I'm so sorry." So I said, "Why don't I just give you an executive producer credit in the program and I'll pay you back when I make money from the program." And he was cool. Thank God he was cool with that. But but I remember at the time thinking it was so devastating. First of all, I like to hike. I was like I I go for my hikes every day just to kind of clear my head space because the level of stress was just beyond just anything like oh my
21:05god. So I I would really get out there and hike and and I said okay James this is a very low point in your career. I've had all this success and now I'm in this position. I can't believe this.
21:15>> Mhm.
21:16>> But I'm going to take this frustration, this anger and and I'm going to focus it laser-like precision and I'm going to produce a really good documentary. So, I took all of that energy and I focused it into the program and I worked 16 17 hour days to the point where I could barely walk and get my ass back to the edit studio and I pushed myself to the brink of death to produce the program.
21:39>> Listen, I I and I I I want to say this as as someone who's seen a lot of this behind the scenes and and and what happened here. You know, one of my favorite clips we ever recorded is not a public clip. It was actually a 15-minute Patreon episode when you were in my We were still in my parents [clears throat] house back then when you were there >> two years ago.
22:00>> And that's the other thing, by the way.
22:01People want to know what a standup guy James Fox is. He calls me at 4:45 [laughter] a.m. from the runway in Vermont going, "THEY SAID THE ENGINE DOESN'T WORK ON THE PLANE. THEY'RE GOING TO SEE IF THEY CAN give it a go." And I'm like, "That that doesn't sound promising at all." Obviously, they gave it a go, didn't work, didn't crash the plane, and then flight gets cancelled.
22:21And we had Allessie who still lived in Florida at the time. He had flown up for this. Now, he was as broke as I was. So, this was like a big deal. And so, we're like, "Oh my god, this is going to get cancelceled." And you're LIKE, "FUCK IT.
22:30I'M DRIVING." [laughter] SO, YOU came down for 2 days, didn't even let me pay for your hotel. And we ended up recording for about 5 hours and 45 minutes on the second day. We did two podcasts. And in the middle of that, which by the way, thank you for doing that. But >> Oh, yeah. Thanks. In the middle of that, we had like a 15minute Patreon episode where you walked us through essentially your career journey and then especially your eight-year odyssey. And that's what I'll call it, >> making the phenomenon, which for my money is the greatest UFO documentary ever made. [ __ ] phenomenal. It took you It took you 25 years before that to
23:06get anywhere near the respect you deserved. you work jobs from valeting to plumbing to whatever it was all these things just to support yourself pay for these documentaries yourself around the world try to make something great and then finally shout out to Joe Rogan for giving you the respect on the phenomenon back in 2020 and putting you into the other sphere you then took all that money put your money where your mouth is put it into moment of contact and so again like when I see how close it came to you almost having to be like if this doesn't work with the phenomenon and I got to stop. Like my 25-y year dream is
23:40over. To see that work and then see you get all the attention you deserve, make this amazing documentary, Moment of Contact, and it's supposed to be your your now crowning moment where like you can kind of go on in life and do the things you love and not have to worry about finances and stuff. To see that stripped from you by scumbags, which is what they are, >> and and to have >> and they're not going to have any there's no repercussions. No repercussions. no legal repercussions whatsoever.
24:08>> To see that stripped from you though disgust me. That said, the inspiration that you are to me like that clip, I go back and watch that sometimes. It's still on Patreon. It was the first Patreon episode we ever posted. And to see it puts in perspective what I do, what Allessie does because we work our ass off. We've been doing 80, like he does 70, 80 hour weeks now, too. He's been doing that for like a year and a half. I've been doing that for 5 years.
24:31And it's like, damn, James was doing this [ __ ] and working separate jobs for 25 years just to try to get the respect he long deserves. And like, for all the creators out there who have a dream and want to do stuff, you're looking at a guy right here who never lets anything defeat him. And you [clears throat] had to do it again since then. So, shout out to you for doing that and for making another kick-ass documentary. And, you know, I I hope now we can be >> I should have been I should have been laughing in my 50s LIKE, "YEAH, I DID IT." SAID, "I'm like been fighting for survival." Like, again,
25:03>> here's the good news.
25:05>> I was like, "Well, I've been in the trenches my whole life, so I've been here before. I know how this feels.
25:09>> I know what it's like to be broke. I know what it's like to be completely penis. I know what it's like not to even have a bank account. I didn't have a bank account when I first I didn't have a bank account when I was making the phenomenon for three years."
25:20>> And I remember people going, "What are you talking about? You don't have a bank account?" I was like, "Yeah, I'm sorry.
25:25I'm not doing it to upset you. Like I don't have a bank account because taxes and duh duh duh duh and if I put money in a bank, you know, it's gone. So I had to deal with all that and it's gone.
25:36[laughter] >> Yeah, I know.
25:37>> I was like I came in I remember I remember I got this check and I was waiting for it. It was like 1,500 bucks.
25:43I was like I need that check so bad. I was so desperate. I was like oh my god.
25:48I was like I'm going to pay my cell phone, keep that from getting cut off.
25:50Then I got my heat bill and I was like oh god you know. And then so I put the I got the check and I raced it to the bank. I didn't do the ATM. I went inside to make sure everything went smoothly. I put that check in the bank. The next morning I came to get some money out and she's like, "Sorry, you sir, you have a zero balance." I was like [laughter] I was like, "What are you talking about?" I said, "I put money in last night." "Oh, well you made a you made a withdrawal." I said, "No, I didn't.
26:13[laughter] Who?" And then she's like, [clears throat] "Ooh, the IRS took it." I WAS LIKE, "OH MY GOD." You want to talk about a gut punch? It was like somebody punched me in the stomach with everything they had.
26:29And I remember thinking to myself, "They didn't save me a dime. Not a dime. They took all of it."
26:34>> James is like, "Back to doing glory hole [ __ ] Let's go."
26:37>> Oh my god. I [laughter] was so devastated.
26:40>> He's pulling up.
26:42>> But I I remember thinking they didn't even save like they didn't take like 50% or like 70%. They took 100 every penny of it. Anyway, so yeah, so I've been there. So, you know, and it's funny actually because uh I have this mentality of like someone's going to come take this the good stuff that I that I did get away from me, you know? I I paid cash for my my kind of my dream car when I could.
27:08And >> and when I got when I bought a house, >> I I just had I had a chunk of money. I never had a chunk. I never had that before. my guy. It almost made me paranoid because I everyone's like, "You got to do this and you got to buy stock." I'm like, "I'm not a stock guy."
27:22No, I'm going to put it all into a house. I took the chunk and and it's gone. [laughter] >> But I felt good about it as an artist, you know? It's like then at least it's in a house, right?
27:32>> Yeah.
27:33>> Anyway, >> allegedly.
27:36>> Allegedly. [laughter] >> Yeah. I'm going to go I'm going to go dig in the backyard, see where you got that cash, baby.
27:42>> Yeah, right. [laughter] I was my neighbor when I was when I was growing up. But the bottom line is here you are. You have maintain I I know obviously there's there's real human struggles behind the scenes, but you have at least in every time we've talked maintained your happy go-lucky positive attitude the whole way and it's it's a good lesson because like I think that's part of what gets you through and and gets you this point. So >> thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I don't talk about that aspect of it very often. And people think like like I had this young uh filmmaker make a comedy.
28:09He go, "Well, you have it easy and everybody's uh everybody, you know, helps wants to help you out and blah blah blah." I I was like, "What? You're in your 20s. I'm in my 50s. I've been in the trenches for 25 30 years." I'm like, "You need to pay your dues, buddy." He was like, "Yeah, whatever." I really really pissed me off. And I just had to cool my jets and be like, "Okay, this guy doesn't know because I don't really talk about that often the what I've been through to get to where I am. Not that I'm special, but it's like I', you know, I I set out to do and I had to claw and fight and kick and scratch and bite my
28:44way all the way, man.
28:46>> Yeah.
28:46>> It's like nothing but a slew of obstacles in front of you. Try to get your go for your dreams, right?
28:53>> Yeah.
28:54>> But when I finished the the phenomenon was the only movie I finished that I was like satisfied because >> you weren't satisfied with the ones before that.
29:04>> Nope.
29:06I did uh 50 Years of Denial. I was happy, but I was like, you know, I did it. That was intense. I didn't realize I was in my 20s. I was like, I didn't I had no idea how hard that was going to be.
29:16>> Then I did Out of the Blue and I was moderately happy. And I remember my partner Boris was in a fetal position crying, and I've been there, too. And his wife's looking at me like I'm she's like, "You're killing my husband." You know, and he's like, you know, like everybody so hard. [laughter] I don't got no money, so I'm not paying him. So he's like broke and his wife's like, "What the hell?" I was like, "We got to get this movie out, man. This this is everyone's at the end of the rope." So I I released that film. [clears throat] Then I owned it again three years later when I got a letter from NBC Universal
29:46and they're like, "We're not going to renew the broadcast option." Which I didn't expect him to do anyway. So I owned it again and I revisited that film and I think I spent another two and a half years on Out of the Blue and made a director's cut >> and then finished that again. totally broke like end of my rope and I was like it's good but [sighs] it's not what I envisioned. It wasn't like what you you know you have this idea and it it doesn't materialize necessarily as as you as you wanted to.
30:13So, I took another crack at it in my 30s, uh, mid30s, and I did, um, um, I Know What I Saw, mid to late 30s, finished I Know What I Saw, and I was kind of depressed cuz Lionsgate almost bought it. But then the people at, uh, I think it was not acquisitions, but the people that go through the quality control reviewed it and they said that it had fallen short in production qualities. And I remember thinking to myself, that's I [clears throat] didn't get a deal with Lionsgate because of that. and it was devastated and I was like, "All right, I'm not going to make that mistake again. Next time if I don't
30:43have the money to do it right, I'll wait until I do."
30:46>> So then that's why >> um the phenomenon took as long as it did. It took me eight years. I started when I was 43.
30:51>> You went all over the world, too.
30:52>> Went all over the world. Yeah. And I ran out of money at the time and I lost my bank account, became a dad. Like all those things kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going. And when I finished it, I watched it in the um in the in the uh in in Los Angeles in a place called Juniper Post, who does the audio work because we're going to be for the first time ever in movie theaters. And everyone said to me, if you want to be in a theater, if your audio ain't right, >> it's you got to have P, you need to hire an audio engineer. And I was like, what?
31:26I would never hire an audio engineer.
31:28You you don't all these pro you don't understand, James. You can't be in theater without the proper sound, the balance, the modulation, all the little microscopic surgery that the that these guys do. He did it. He was amazing. And uh Ben Zarai and um uh I watched the film in that studio and I didn't watch it again for several years after that, but I was like, "Okay, this is it. Yeah, we got it. We lock locked it down finally."
31:54>> That's the one that I've been trying to do since I was 24.
31:57>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the most comprehensive history of the modern UFO phenomenon ever. No pun intended.
32:02>> And and I wanted to I wanted to create a body of evidence that could transcend in a big way the UFO community. No problem.
32:11I'm I'm part of the UFO community, but but I thought, what's the point of preaching to the choir? I want to I want to be able to present a body of evidence to mainstream to a much more mainstream audience that will let them know that there's really something more than swamp gas and weather balloons to the phenomenon. Right. And I did it. I felt like we did it. You know, I had a Well, look at the all the uh credits in the film.
32:34>> Most of them uh deserved it. Not all of them, but uh but that's that's another story al together.
32:41[laughter] >> All right. Yeah, you're going to blue balls us there. I see it. But you get that was, you know, you get to sit down with a guy like Harry Reid who, you know, this longtime center and everything and was was read in allegedly on on some of this stuff. But that's where the initial idea for the program obviously comes from because you're doing this comprehensive history and you stumble upon >> the fact that there were official, >> you know, obviously you had the 2017 Christopher Melon taking the documents out of the Pentagon and going to New York Times and bring it public while you're making the phenomenon. And then
33:15you're in the midst of making the phenomenon. You're talking to people like Harry Reid and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] we have actual programs that are documented that look at this and nothing else." You know? So, I mean, were you thinking to yourself, "Holy [ __ ] all these crash retrieval, you know, folklore all the way up to Men in Black because this is before you did Moment of Contact." Yeah. Might actually be based on something real because of what guys like Harry Reid were telling you. You know, it's it's kind of like uh I remember I remember when it happened at the time because I I almost like pinched
33:50myself. It's been a couple of uh times in my career where I've literally I'm in such a state of disbelief that I have to literally physically like kind of pinch myself because I'm going, did that really just happen? Like really? And I remember the first time it happened with Five Simonson, the former governor of Arizona, when he admitted after doing this whole spoof 10 years earlier where he had his aid dressed up as an alien, and he came out and mocked the whole Phoenix Lights case, and everyone was so pissed off about that.
34:17>> And um that was one of the time when he admitted I was like, did I just hear what I think I heard? Like he just said he saw it and he investigated and then it wasn't of this earth. He knew that just by the sheer size and you know and I remember like I literally reached out and I was pinching myself going no I'm not sleeping this really happened. I was pinching my leg and then I was like a camera's not rolling. So I I looked over to see if the red light was still going on the camera you know one of those moments and when Harry Reid said to me because I remember I was being somewhat conservative. It was a huge moment in my
34:47career like imagine right?
34:49>> Oh yeah. And um I don't think anybody had gotten I mean that was the biggest sit down interview he ever gave because he got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer right after it happened. Yeah.
34:58>> And so I said you're telling me something like this. You're telling me >> that what's been released the videos that were making the headlines all across the world. You're telling me that the evidence that's been released uh that there's more or something like that? and he goes, uh, was it like the vast majority or it's just the tip of the iceberg? Some extremely profound statement like it, you always suspect it, but to have that level of confirmation by that level of of person on camera. Wow, that was an incredible moment in my career. It was like, "Oh my god, all these things that we've been
35:38hearing in Roswell and Kingman, Arizona and Aztec and Varia and just all this stuff." It's like >> this changes everything.
35:47>> Like if you think about it cuz you know people often ask me like why do I keep pushing? What's wrong with you? You're just obsessed. You know, and I say to them like, "Well, imagine imagine if this stuff is true. Imagine if we have hardware from an alien species. I say alien because I don't know they're whatever they are, but they're alien to us.
36:11>> If we have hardware in bodies, how significant of a story would you give that? And everybody goes, "Holy shit."
36:17Doesn't matter what your political background, your your what what your religious whatever all around the world, everyone says most significant story period. Right.
36:26>> Of course. So, I am convinced that it's going down and it's a very difficult story to walk away from. And quite frankly, I'm not going to ever walk away from it until it's out. And it's coming and it's coming out.
36:39>> It's coming. The story is coming out.
36:41>> Needs to.
36:41>> Yeah. Yeah. It's coming. I mean, it's >> it's coming out.
36:45>> Yeah. One one of >> Put the genie back in the bottle. Sorry.
36:47>> One of the things you've talked about, Jason, is that there's a difference between disclo I want to get this right.
36:53difference between disclosure and national security interests something like that when it comes to the phenomenon. Are you basically saying that if we had evidence that there that literally that we are not alone in the universe people have a right to know that at a broad level whereas the things that may be more finite within that that would impact our national security they don't. Yes, that that's kind of how I feel about it too. Just that yeah, there's a difference between a weapon system, from a technology, be it from our own making or exotic retrieval kind of stuff where that needs to stay classified. But that the disclosure
37:30should be that yeah, we do have other things that we don't know where they come from or we do know where they come from and these are the entities and yeah, people need to kind of know about this because it's it's a big deal for us as a a race to just realize that we're not alone in this universe.
37:47>> Absolutely.
37:48>> You know, I mean that that has an impact. Um and to me that's a right for everybody to know or not know and accept or not accept. Well, so expanding on what you just said because a lot of people go, you know, any statistician will tell you that the the odds of us being alone in the universe is is, you know, we're not 100% that there's other life.
38:08>> The question is, >> is it coming here? Of course, I'm convinced it is. And I'm sure >> I'm 100%. [laughter] Yeah, I've seen it.
38:16I know.
38:17>> Yeah.
38:17>> I wish everybody else could know what I know and have experienced it. And then they'd all be like, "Oh, yeah. This is serious." Um, can we talk a little bit about his uh because I know I want to provide a little bit of a platform so he can defend himself a little bit and I'm not sitting there, >> you know, holding Jay up on a platform, but I'm the reason why he's coming forward. I'm the reason why he got exposed. It was my mistake. He did an on camera interview with me. We were going to mask his identity primarily, but primarily because it was a security insurance thing.
38:48>> He shakes his hand like, "Yeah, good job, asshole." He was dealing in 20 [laughter] 20 2021 2022. He was having meetings in skips I'm guessing.
38:57>> Yes.
38:57>> Meetings in skips with congressional staffers or people part of the task force or >> UAP task force folks. Yeah.
39:04>> Folks investigating on the hill.
39:06>> Yeah. And and they introduced me to the Congress and both Senate and House all that stuff. Yeah. And I met personally with a couple of those people because I was like I'm I need to know that this guy's been vetted and you know so I've been meet I was meeting with in fact I've got a >> in fact let me read this right now because this is the time when I want to do it >> before you go on though I just wanted to say really quick that >> yes >> you know you mentioned the time when you accidentally put my name out there but it's actually turned into a blessing in disguise because as you know at that
39:32point I hadn't got my doppser yet >> and explain well that's going to be the the pre-publication where if you're an intel person, you have to ask, you know, for everything to be reviewed and that's what I had to do is get that.
39:47>> So adopter is an acronym for like pre pre-publication process.
39:50>> Pre-publication. Yeah. So that I could I knew the subject matter that I could talk to publicly.
39:54>> Uhhuh.
39:55>> So that's that was kind of something I was still working on. But um when I had to go public, it was it was fine. I felt really good like there was a whole cloud just lifted.
40:04>> And um actually there was a lot of supporters that came out of the woodwork for me. So, so, uh, and you've been getting a lot of heat for some things that you said that I thought were very questionable, but whatever.
40:15[clears throat] Whatever. [laughter] Let me let me read let me read let me read something here, cuz this this came from an individual that I met with.
40:24>> I hope you had the camera on made that look.
40:26>> I'm going to put my old man glasses on for this. Okay, here we go.
40:29>> And I had nicer glasses. I had really cool glasses, but I left them in the car, so I This is what you're looking at here. I remember the first time I went on Joe Rogan. I had these really funky glasses and everyone was commenting on them like, "Dude, [laughter] seriously, those are the glasses you're going to be sporting on Joe Rogan." I was like, I thought I was a fashion, you know, statement here to wear some glasses.
40:50Sean is like, I don't know this guy. So, I do not know himself [laughter] from this point.
40:55>> To give him credit, he just said he had a mansion and a yacht. He didn't say he had glasses.
40:59>> That's right. [laughter] >> Okay, here we go. And this I know who this individual is. And he says, "If you say blah blah blah blah blah, you might as well quote my name directly." So I said, "Please keep as written." Yes, I will. Okay. From a congressional source who is aware of his testimony, Jason Sans. Jason testified to three congressional committees and arrow as a whistleblower. His military and intelligence community background, clearances, and assignments were fully vetted. We were not however able to validate some details of his extraordinary testimony. However, Mr.
41:36Sand's testimony did provide significant insights that were later validated by multiple military witnesses.
41:44>> And who gave you this statement again without saying without saying the actual person?
41:48>> Uh it was a congressional source.
41:50>> Okay.
41:51>> Yeah. And I met with this individual face to face multiple times.
41:54>> Now this is this is a little bit of a different kind of podcast. like we've had multiple people on here a bunch, but this is a little bit of a different >> one than we've ever done because your story is going to be in the middle of this and that's really going to be a focus. And then at some point we're going to come back around to a lot of things in the program, but we'll just do this live like we always do. So Jason, I obviously James gave you a pretty good intro as far as what some of the highle I guess like public discourse is right now surrounding you. But I really want to get the full thing out there just so
42:26it can be there on the record and everyone out there listening can kind of decide for themselves and and hear what you have to say and and go from there.
42:33So, I got photographs of him in the military that I printed out. So, you can go through these pictures, hold them up, and explain where where you are, what you're doing, what your uh military uh credentials were at the time, but hold them up for the camera if you can.
42:48>> Yeah. So, your camera's going to be right there.
42:50>> Yeah. This one's when I was in Simbog.
42:51>> Hold it up a little higher, maybe.
42:53>> Yep.
42:53>> And uh this is me and my uh uh DO or who's kind of like the u operations chief. Uh he was re swearing me in again for another reinlistment in this particular this was about 1990.
43:08>> Okay, next one.
43:10>> Uh this is me training [clears throat] one of the younger troops.
43:13>> Hold it up higher.
43:14>> Um this is at Black Mountain, which is that place where the UFO incident of 1994 happened >> just before. Yeah, just the um just the location where the UFO flew by.
43:26>> There's a window there you were saying that you're blocking in the picture.
43:29Tell us what you would have seen out that window a couple days earlier. Yeah.
43:33Or what? I'm sorry. When when the UFO image leaked out of Nelson.
43:36>> Yeah, because there's windows on this this wall and also along the other side of the wall. Um and the my co-workers were up there the day the UFO came through and they uh they saw it. Several of them saw it. Um some of the people are actually in other vehicles and things around the the desert doing other things and they didn't see it. But the people that were in the schoolhouse then >> tell me.
43:59>> Yeah. Everyone out there, we're going to come back to that. Like we're we're going to go through that whole thing.
44:03I'm going to want to start from the beginning in a minute, but keep going with the pictures.
44:06>> All right. So, go to that picture. Yep.
44:09>> Uh this is uh me with my commander at the unit that uh I had all of my experiences from.
44:15>> Look at those specs.
44:18>> Damn.
44:18>> I had I had surgery later on. I had some LASIC later on in life, >> but uh yeah, had those specs. So, uh, anyway, I was just receiving an award or graduation, I believe it was. Yeah.
44:29Yeah, it was an award. So, this is the commander just giving me an award for something great I did or some I I didn't think much of it, but uh people thought it it was worthy of an award.
44:39>> Okay.
44:40>> And this is when I graduated the NCO Academy. And um yeah, that's my wife, and I'm protecting her privacy to uh the public. But anyway, yes, this is me at the graduation. and they had a photographer for us. But this is when again in Germany where I graduated from the NCO Academy.
44:56>> When is this approximately?
44:57>> This is just before um let me think just before Hawaii. So you're talking 200 one or two.
45:08>> Okay. So this is several years before you leave the Air Force. Right. Right.
45:11Okay.
45:12>> Yeah. Because I left the Air Force in 2007.
45:14>> Okay. And then there's two more documents I'd love you just to quickly go through. We can get this out of the way. Okay. is and that is uh I think I have them which talks about your special access program. Um where where are those?
45:28>> You have those in yours or do I have them here? I'm going to pass them to you. Here we go.
45:31>> Okay. Yeah. Some of these I don't it's it's uh >> we have got Yeah, there >> these are raw documents. So I can't show the names and stuff, >> but uh I am going to be show you my own personal records, but these are from my career in the Air Force. Um, every year you have what's called a personnel report that you have to have signed by your immediate supervisor and your commander and you know you just go through and tell them this is what I did this year. You know, here's the things that are noteworthy to highlight. All right. So, um, I provided these to James and several other trusted individuals
46:07because they highlight some things that people have questioned me about. I think most recently they questioned the fact that they had a guy that was supposed to be in my career field and claims that, oh, I couldn't possibly be in a special access program and take off every two weeks and nobody know. Well, dude, uh, I'm sorry. I'm going to embarrass you a bit. Um, but anyway, uh, that's what's in these documents here. So, >> read the ones we highlighted. We might have put them at the top of your stack.
46:32Oh, they're in my stack. Yeah, let me do the ones that are highlighted locate.
46:36I think it's just important to establish some of his military records before.
46:40>> So, here you go. Get into >> uh served as comick operator on three highly sensitive secretary of the air force level special projects missions.
46:50Okay.
46:50>> Does it give a year range on?
46:52>> Yes. And on the back side of this, it shows you that this is where I worked.
46:57This is Nellis. Okay.
46:59>> Yeah. So, the years read that and then read the back. It tells you exactly where he was. Nell's Nellis test range.
47:05>> Okay. So, I'm I'm reading the highlighted parts, right? Okay.
47:09>> Valued at over 2.5 million entered into analyst upgrade training. Expertise in the area of readiness, disaster preparedness. Plans and trainings have aided significantly in the unit's readiness posture. And then it says it does give the address for Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. And I can see the year periods are what? 92 to 93.
47:30>> Exactly. And so here's another one also.
47:32read that.
47:33>> Um, this one also confirms again that I was doing this for years. Uh, if you look at that one, you see also the mention of the special access that I had. Um, and then if you flip it over, you can see again this is from Nellis Air Force Base, my job there. And again, the dates in the the date grouping, it's right when I've always said this is who I was during those years.
47:57>> Okay. All right. Th this is this is great to have, by the way. So, thank you for bringing this just so we have like the actual literal government.
48:04>> I definitely want you guys to to look at it and verify.
48:07>> He brought his all of his records. Yeah, of course. Looking at some before, too.
48:11>> Congressional staff members, uh, Leslie Kaine, Christopher Melon, a number of other people that said, "Look, whatever he's saying, >> his clearances check out. He is who he says he was. he was where he says he was and he's he's named classified programs that we've later validated with multiple other witnesses. So, leave it at that.
48:31So, >> James, one of the things that I think makes your job really hard. Yeah.
48:35>> That you know, it's almost like how do you even get around this if you're going to try to investigate it is that you do have to talk with a lot of people who are from and around intelligence, right?
48:44Or high level military or whatever you may say. And you know, I'm so fascinated by that subject matter. You know, I've had some of these spooky people on here before. I like to hear them out, put my feds right where I could see them on camera and everyone else can listen and everyone judge for themselves. I understand it's a mixed bag. There's some things they say where I'm like, that's definitely [ __ ] And then there's other things they say where I'm like, maybe, you know what I mean? But I never know the motive on it. So, I just kind of sit here and do the best I can to understand that. But you dealing with
49:15the guys like the Christopher Melons, dealing with guys like I've had in here like Lou Alzando, dealing with any of these people that are unnamed sources that you have as well, dealing with people even in Congress who, you know, I guess we could say it this way, report to those people in a way, and they wouldn't want to say that, but that's kind of how it is. you know, how do you grapple with trying to separate, you know, what is a SCOP like subject matter that may be brought your way versus things that could actually be on the pathway of your investigation that you're looking for?
49:46>> Good question. And I totally get that's and particularly as you get closer to the target, uh, things get a little more hazy, [clears throat] right?
49:54>> Um, and you get under attack and you know, you don't know who to believe. I have the distinct um advantage of having done extensive field research all around the world. And when I hear reports like what he's referring to, I remember hearing that Nellis test range footage leaked in the '90s. I was investigating UFOs making my first film >> from who? Who'd you hear from?
50:16>> It on the internet like it was public.
50:19It was reported on in a news some like tabloidy news thing, but it was real.
50:24>> And I remember going this is fascinating. And this was in the '90s.
50:28So I'd heard about the Telus the Nellis test range leak back in the 90s, right?
50:33>> Mhm.
50:34>> And I've reported on close encounters of the first kind, close encounters of the second kind, and close encounters of the third kind all around the world. Right.
50:42And so I when I when I meet someone like Mr. Sans, I've got a lot of field research. For instance, you know, my time boots on the ground in Virginia, Brazil, crash retrieval program, capture of biologics entities. So I go, "All right, I can't just believe him because who he says or whatever he says he says, right? I I just and I feel that way about anybody else. Loudo, David Grush, like who do we know that what they does what they say align with my field research?" And if it does, I have to think, okay, this might be true. If it's way out to the the right field or something, okay, be a little more
51:19questionable. One thing I've learned in this field, I have that knee-jerk response. You hear something that sounds truly impossible, right? And you have this knee-jerk response like, "This is this this is too unbelievable. This this this can't be, therefore, it isn't."
51:35>> I've learned after 30 plus years to suspend that judgment and at least listen and hear the people out, >> right? And so that's kind of where I'm at. Now, with Mr. Sands. This alleged encounter that took place in 1994. You got the video. You got the names. We I'm not going to reveal them, but we have first and last names, documents that have leaked and on the whatever >> of other people that have witnessed it.
51:59>> They leaked they leaked like publicly like you got access when the video when the video leaked, other names leaked.
52:05>> Okay.
52:05>> And um >> I contacted a couple people that I trust >> that I trust. Could I could I be, you know, getting lied? Sure, I could be.
52:16Yeah, definitely.
52:16>> Do you trust them? Why do you trust them?
52:18>> Cuz I was the one that tracked them down and they refused to meet with me. They did not come to me. I went to them and I tried for years to get a meeting with them and kept trying and kept trying and kept trying and finally got a meeting.
52:28Became kind of friends, had multiple meetings and now I kind of lean on on them for advice on, hey, can you do some background on this and hey, can you do the background on that and and I look for sort of consensus among those various contacts.
52:42>> Do they know each other? a lot of the ones you're thinking of.
52:45>> I'm sure they know of each other.
52:46Whether they're in direct contact, I don't know.
52:48>> But um I asked them point blank after I looked into this for eight months. What can I do? I can't improve that he had an encounter in the desert. But I okay, you know, Jason's got some PTSD issues, but it's like, well, I was really frustrated. I remember this is happened to a couple of people I was with I was talking with. Did it happen or did it not happen in your opinion? Please, just did do you think it happened or not? And they're like, "We think it happened."
53:15>> And Christopher Melon was one of these people.
53:17>> Not saying any names, but we we think it happened. And I was like, "Okay, all right. Well, based on that, I'm going to report on it. And I'm going to hope that me reporting on it will encourage other people that were potentially there because now we have one person coming forward. We have video that's leaked. We have >> who were there at Nellis.
53:35>> Who were there at Nellis that video that leaked three days prior. So there was a UFO that was captured on sensory data.
53:40you can explain that one better.
53:42>> And uh and then we know and then and then Jason Sans's coming forward. So maybe the other onduty military personnel will come forward and say, "Yeah, that happened." Or, "You know what? Jason's full of doggy doodoo and it didn't happen." But one way or the other, now Jason was able to get a hold of one of the individuals.
54:04>> Yeah, we're going to talk about that.
54:05And then he went dark, right?
54:06>> Yeah. He ghosted me after I mentioned it.
54:08>> We'll get there on the timeline. I promise people we're going to go through all this. I just don't want to jump around.
54:12>> Yeah. So anyway, so that's just because it's a very controversial thing and it's very controversial when you're dealing with, you know, close encounters of the third kind period. I mean, I was terrified when I covered the Rua Zimbabwe case in 1994, the landing at the school.
54:26>> Discussed that a lot in 138 with >> Yeah. And I had, you know, I had Harry Harry Reid and Podesta and all the, you know, other intel folks in the the phenomenon. And I was like, as soon as they see the fact, cuz they wanted to review the film before they're going to give me a release form. As soon as they see the fact that I've got reports of, you know, face-toface contact with aliens at a school in Africa, people are going to be like, "You need to take me out of this movie." Right.
54:50>> Yeah. I I don't want to rehash all that for the people because we did do that in the past episode 138. It was like 17 minutes or 21 minutes into that. But that's a crazy case and I discussed it with Danny Shehan a lot too.
55:00>> Yeah. Reporting on those types of the nature of those cases, you know, with not a lot of evidence, right? You got eyewitness testimony is pretty much all you've got.
55:08>> Yeah.
55:08>> So, but those were children though, too, which is interesting.
55:12>> True.
55:12>> Because, >> you know, when you have so many kids saying the same thing.
55:17>> Yeah. It was a good >> And then you have John Mack like psychologically evaluating them. I'm not saying it doesn't mean it's not made up, but like it's a little bit.
55:25>> Yeah, >> that one keeps me up at night.
55:27>> Yeah, it's pretty crazy.
55:28>> I'd like to talk to him, too, because I know uh that from my encounter that some of them claimed that they had some kind of telepathic >> Yes.
55:36>> uh conversation. And from my experience, I know there was like residue information that I don't know where it came from.
55:43>> Residue information. like you know when you join a mind space the way I felt it was that there was some part of that person that was overlaid onto me >> and it was like you know kind of it was almost like we were one one mind for a bit >> and I'd like to talk to some of those kids that were there and see if they have some residue >> memories of who they spoke to because that's kind of how it felt with me is that there were some leftover things that I'm like well that's not my life you know but this was from that telepathy >> you know it's interesting when I flew in uh some of the witness witnesses with
56:14the help of Randall Nickerson back in 2013. It was coming up on the 20th anniversary of the landing at the school in in aerial school in [clears throat] Zimbabwe. And a lot of the witnesses that came in, I was talking to them.
56:26They they were married. They school teachers, lawyers >> and uh had partners and I and and they had not they were like, "Well, we had to I had to tell my h she I had to tell my husband." You had to tell your husband what? She goes, "Well, I told my husband about the incident." And I was like, "You're married with kids and you didn't tell your husband prior to that?"
56:45>> Yeah.
56:45>> No. No, we didn't. Why? Well, I was tired of defending it, you know, and I just quite honestly had to defend it.
56:52>> Yeah. Just like I People looking at me with this incredulous look on their face, like you're crazy. And I just I got tired of talking about it, so I didn't talk about it. So, I was like, "You're married with kids, and you didn't tell your husband about this?"
57:02Nope, I didn't. Up until now.
57:05>> And he just told your you just told a few years ago your wife and your kids.
57:09Yeah.
57:10>> Yes.
57:10>> Yeah.
57:10>> All right. I kept my mouth shut, but yeah, there was >> So, you didn't back when it happened?
57:15>> No, I I did my good boy keep my mouth shut, but then I started some seeing some things that I was concerned with and that's when I went to Congress.
57:22>> Got it. So, James, just as a as a devil's advocate here to play this out, you know, you talk about these guys you had to track down and they wouldn't talk with you, wouldn't talk with you, and then they talk with you. And I and I think about this, it's very possible that the outcome is exactly what you said, but the other possible outcome is that they're like, "Holy [ __ ] there's this guy who is like a blood hound on the trail. Like, he doesn't give up. He knows his [ __ ] about the phenomenon.
57:46He's a very, very, you know, respected name in that space. He's been investigating this stuff for years. He can roll off all these facts from around the world. He could be useful to us to [ __ ] feed him some information cuz he's fening for it. And that could be useful for whatever we're doing that's a distraction from what's really going on here. Not to say like, oh, we're not alone in the universe or not to say that we're not not alone in the universe or something like that, but that there are other things at play here, i.e., I don't know, reverse engineered DARPA weapons or things like that that are even from
58:16things of this earth that we don't want China and Russia knowing we got from a human standpoint. So, we're going to say, "Oh, look at the [ __ ] green alien." And James Fox is going to be our guy to put the information out there that tries to push that narrative. Do you think that could happen with any of these guys?
58:30>> Well, yeah, good point. And uh I I would I would say that when you've got someone like Mr. Sans or people that have appeared in my movie, >> right, a number of people, they're exposed their faces, right, and their names >> saying, "Look, you provide me with the necessary like clearance or immunity and I'll provide all the level of detail you need to verify what I'm telling you."
58:57Right? So the the the implications are so significant that we owe it to ourselves to make sure that these individuals like take him take Hal put off and a number of other people that have come forward. Let's fight let's inform Congress and let's fight to get these guys immunity and put them on under oath to testify to a a a bipartisan group of lawmakers publicly.
59:25Let's provide them with immunity and let's get the specifics. Let's verify.
59:30Let's prove or disprove what their claims are because the implications are not are so profound. Not just for everyone within the United States. This is a this is going to have a global impact, right? So yes, you have to in the back of your mind go, yeah, this could be they could be, you know, but again, it aligns with my research in the field. And that's I really can't emphasize that enough. So let's expose the fact that these folks, they want to they're asking for immunity. Please, I've got NDAs. I've signed all these security oaths. Please just give me immunity. Put me on the stand. Let me take a lie detector. Let me testify
60:10under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers and I'll give you all the details you need to verify what I'm telling you.
60:17>> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
60:23And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
Read the essay version →