0:01You know, my producer and my executive producer sit down and we, you know, they we put these say we edit them and put them out as they come. Now, we may change them around for whatever production or programming reason, but everybody makes the movie.
0:16Yeah, and I think on that level you're right.
0:17>> everybody makes the movie. Nobody gets out.
0:19>> Right. Now, we may have guys who don't talk and we may group them together, you know, three in an episode because the interviews are shorter for whatever reason, but nobody, you know, nobody gets out of this who gets caught. Right.
0:31And again, like you're talking about that range and people from way different backgrounds or means and things like that, and I agree.
0:40There's a level though that you don't get a chance to get to.
0:43>> headlines when it's a doctor. I mean, you look at the New York Post today, the day that we record this, and there are two or three stories about prominent men getting caught, getting child porn, CSAM.
0:57One is a doctor in Michigan. Another is a physician someplace else, but all prominent people who are shockingly engaging in the purchase and trafficking of child porn.
1:11In one day.
1:13In one day.
1:15How what percentage do you think actually get caught?
1:20That's an excellent question.
1:22Um and there's a theory that some of these guys want to get caught.
1:29And I've heard that in interviews over the years, you know, and I'm relieved. Now I can get help. Now I can stop.
1:39In terms of percentage, it'd be a wild guess, but based upon the activity on the internet, I'd say maybe 20, 30%.
1:49That's actually higher than I thought you were going to say.
1:51>> Yeah. I mean, again, I'm just giving you an educated guess. I mean, maybe that's overly optimistic because I want to think that we catch more than we do, but in terms of guys seeking children for sex and actually you know, doing something to physically do that, um maybe 20, 30% but again, it's a it's a guess at best.
2:14Do you think it for certainly not for everyone, but do you think for some people this is something that's curable or do you view it as incurable across the board? They have this feeling, that's what it is.
2:28I I think the vast majority cases are incurable, but I have seen and we talk about this on the Predators I've Caught podcast, guys who especially the younger guys who you know, did their punishment, whether it's a you know, a month in the county jail or whatever it was, they registered as a sex offender, they went to their treatment, and now they're productive members of society. It happens. How do we know that? We We know that because they're [clears throat] closely monitored. We know that because they have to report to a probation officer. We know that because they're registered. We know that because we keep
3:04track of their activities.
3:06So, is it 100%? No, absolutely not.
3:10But, these guys are going to work every day, they're doing a job, they're not offending, they've gone to therapy, they're young [clears throat] enough where they can rewire their brains a little bit, and people would argue with me that none of these guys can be fixed.
3:25But, I think some of these guys act on impulses that you know, with some work and therapy and and some monitoring, they can decide they're not going to do it again.
3:37And discipline.
3:39And discipline.
3:40If they have it.
3:43See, that would That's an interesting word to use there because if if you say discipline, the what maybe I'm taking it too literally, but that would mean that they have all those urges, but they're disciplined to just not act on or something, which means >> exactly what I'm getting at. And I get email We have an email associated with the podcast, Chris at predatorpodcast.com.
4:06And I've gotten at least a dozen over the 5 years we've done that podcast.
4:14Emails from men who say, "Look, I don't want to use my name or I don't want to be identified, but I am telling you that I've had these urges for as long as I can remember. I go to therapy. I'm in a uh a normal adult relationship, and I don't offend.
4:33And I understand I have these these urges, and I can't tell you exactly why, but I do. I'm attracted to younger girls.
4:41And I don't offend, and you need to know that there are people out there who are like me."
4:48Now, have I verified everything in that email as being true? No.
4:53But it it ring it rings true to me that there are people out there who are that way.
4:58Maybe there's some of those people who are telling the truth. Maybe some of the other people fall in the category if they want to get caught, and this is how they think they can do it to get their attention by emailing Chris Hansen.
5:06>> Yeah, or they're jerking me around. Or they're jerking you off. Which is not out of the [laughter] out of the possibility either. You don't know, but it's interesting that somebody would take the time to give me details about their life. And if I wanted to find them, I could find them.
5:19>> Yeah.
5:20You know, and if I thought they were a danger to society, I would turn it over to law enforcement. I would I would do everything I could to prevent them from harming a child. I don't care.
5:31Yeah. You know, but if it's somebody being honest who at least there's no information that he's harmed a child, then you know, I'd like to hear about it. Do you ask them about ever converse with them about where these urges come from?
5:46I have not.
5:48And I should.
5:51Yeah, I I would I mean I'm working on an episode that involves this, but as you can imagine, you know, it it it takes a little bit of a leap of faith on my part to to say, "Okay, is this guy jerking me around?"
6:03>> Right.
6:07How am I sure he's not offended?
6:10Um they need to take a leap of faith and say, "All right, I'm going to go identify myself." Cuz I'm not going to take just a a fake name. I need I need to know. I need to run a background check on these guys.
6:22>> Yeah. You know, and so it's kind of gets stalled out in that that mediation part of it. And then, as you're working on that, suddenly there's five other interviews you have to do. So, it's it's important. I should do it, and and I will.
6:35Does it feel like sometimes with all of the awareness we have on just how widespread a problem like this is, does it feel like you're swimming against the current?
6:46Like it just gets worse despite all the great work you've clearly done to to help.
6:51Yeah, I try not to get overwhelmed by it. You know, I I I've at a stage in life where I've been doing this long enough, you know, that I know a couple things to be true. One, you just got to do your best every day.
7:06Two, I I believe in the work. It's important. I I I wanted to be a television journalist virtually every day since the age of 15, and I pursued it.
7:18Um And I I believe it's important, and and, you know, obviously at some point in life you start to get addicted yourself to you know, your ego gets addicted to the the attention and being relevant in a space. And I've been very fortunate to remain relevant for a very long time across three generations of viewers, followers, whatever you want to call people.
7:39And and to figure out a way to do stories in a in a manner that is captivating to people, right? And so you you take the predator stories and you have that currency or that value to your viewers, your people, and you try to translate that into other topics as well. But I'm I'm blessed to have, you know, been in the game so long and see no end to it.
8:06I'm not just catching predators, but all kinds of other stories and other material and other things that I do. Um but I I you know, it's a unique thing because you know, I have this discussion with my sons who are in the business, one behind the camera, one in front of the camera, and um behind the camera does some work with me, but also does, you know, commercials for Microsoft and Pfizer and, you know, movies and, you know, he's got a lot of different things going on.
8:36The the the son who's in front of the camera is in more of a traditional route, which is what I was in, right? When I went to NBC, I didn't go there to do predator investigations. We did stories for news magazines. And it could be the Oklahoma City bombing, it could be 9/11, it could be a lot of breaking news or, you know, political news or the impeachment of Bill Clinton, all that stuff.
8:59>> You did that for a lot of years.
9:01>> of years, yeah. And then, you know, pitched uh um the predator series. And I think at that point, you either do it once and keep going or you pursue that that sort of reporting. And obviously, I took a different road. That road doesn't land you at 60 Minutes as a correspondent, right? It lands you in your own world, your own network. And I'm comfortable with that. I mean, I don't know of a better set of circumstances that I could have than the one I currently possess.
9:34I mean, who at 66 years old has their own streaming network which produces takedown that comes out every single Thursday.
9:44Two podcasts with unique content every single Monday and Wednesday. And then documentaries.
9:50>> Right.
9:51A dozen in the works including the Roblox documentary that is out now. Well, you're also like a one-of-one brand. Like when people think about this kind of thing and like catching predators, it's like the next search on Google is Chris Hansen. Right.
10:08But I don't get to do a cooking show in Italy.
10:11But I knew that going into it.
10:12>> I think you're doing more important work though.
10:14>> I agree. But you also, you know, there there's a part of you as you go through the business where you think, "Well, I'll do a lot of different things." And we did for many years at Dateline do a lot of things. That show has morphed into a murder mystery procedural.
10:27>> Mhm.
10:28Nothing wrong with it. Great show. It does very well. My friends still work at that show doing those murder mysteries.
10:33Is that what I personally want to do?
10:36No.
10:37I found a a niche and a purpose that is tailor-made for me.
10:43And I'm very comfortable doing it the way I do it. Those guys may not be comfortable doing it. Mhm. I mean, there's no uh jealousy or animosity or I'm better than you or you're better than me or I wish you would It's just the way it happened. We're all very good friends.
10:57We talk all the time. I see him at CrimeCon.
10:59>> Right. You know?
11:02I think I'll actually disagree with you on one thing though. Obviously, like you're perfectly comfortable right where you are and doing your thing. But I do think if you woke up tomorrow I wouldn't want to see you do a cooking show personally, but like, [laughter] you know, if you woke up tomorrow and said, "I think I'm going to I think not that anyone would want to do this these days, but I think I'm going to go cover the politics in DC." People would be like, "Yo, Chris Hansen's covering what's going on in DC. I'm going to watch it."
11:31>> it's refreshing to hear, you know.
11:33Um I got a lot of people who depend on me to do the kind of work I do.
11:38Right? And so that plays into it as well. Yes. But I think as this evolves, for instance, as as True Blue, our streaming network, grows, I think we're going to have you know, the ability to do a lot of different things. And I think as we become bigger, uh I mean, we have documentaries and projects in the works on on different topics.
12:00And I think there's going to be the ability to to get involved in a lot of things. And I Look, I'm at a great stage in life. You know, my kids are grown.
12:08Right? My wife is very supportive of this work. You're 66 still?
12:12>> 66 years old. Doing well. I think so.
12:14I'm hanging in there for a fellow of a certain age. But you know, you adapt as you go along to preserve yourself, too.
12:20Yeah. You know.
12:22Now, you said you wanted to do this since you were 15.
12:24Yes.
12:26I mean, look, you got the look, you got the voice. You always had that. But like, what was it that What was the What was the push?
12:31>> I grew up about a mile away from where Jimmy Hoffa was kidnapped. Whoa.
12:38>> In suburban Detroit.
12:39And when it happened, the local police in Bloomfield Township and the FBI and national correspondents and local reporters, and Detroit, you know, was a very sophisticated media market. It has been for for many years. But when I was there, and I worked in in Detroit for 10 years, I mean, that the anchormen were larger than life. The reporters were, you know, local celebrities and and very good journalists. And they understood television. Um And Detroit at one time was the seventh largest market in the nation.
13:09You know, it was it was, you know, New York, LA, Chicago, Boston, Philly, and then Detroit, you know. And and the the city of lost population. So it's it's changed now.
13:20It's in the top 20 still, I believe. But you know, I became fascinated with the story, obsessed with it. I used to ride my bike up there and uh you know, the crime scene was all happening.
13:31And so, I was bit by the bug then and you know, after that the Oakland County child killing case, which was a huge case when I was in high school, was >> The Oakland County child >> Oakland County child killer. Four children disappeared in the span of like 18 months, found dead.
13:45They were all related to one or two potential killers.
13:49I'd done stories on it when I was in Detroit. Keep track of it now. I was just on a radio show a few weeks ago talking about it in Detroit. It's the 50th year anniversary. Knew the family of one of the kids who was taken.
14:01Yeah, there are Timmy King.
14:03And some theories. I mean, I chased around as a local reporter in Detroit.
14:06We went to Wyoming to chase a lead. We went you know, we did a lot of different things on this story. And technically, I mean, there are people who think they know who did it.
14:17Um both who of whom are dead.
14:19>> Oh, he never they never got caught though.
14:21>> No.
14:22It's been one of those enduring mysteries. Now, people have their theories.
14:26So, you know, with all that having gone on as I was starting to watch local news a lot and read all the newspapers and and uh the main anchorman at the ABC station, Bill Bonds, who was a great character, great journalist, uh was best friends with my best friend's father.
14:44And so, I was around him a lot. And um you know, off to college and sign up for the radio station doing news and and I was a reporter. Mhm.
14:55You know, you mentioned it earlier though talking about this with serial killers. You drew the parallel in some of the mentality between them and the predators that you deal with. But, I think sometimes we forget about how the whole serial killer phenomenon rose up, you know, in the '60s, '70s, and '80s and still unfortunately continues today.
15:15But, like when you look at the guys like the BTK's or this guy we never caught, the Oakland County child killer?
15:23I similar question when I asked you about child predators earlier like what what bears someone to put that in their soul and become that thing?
15:35You know, uh Silence of the Lambs. I mean, who who you know, how do you start in this? John Wayne Gacy, um you know, the the notorious uh uh smiley face killer, you know, in in Oregon. I interviewed him face-to-face.
15:52This is a big dude, too. We did a piece for Dateline years ago. And you know, you're you're sitting as close as you and I are sitting with this guy with leg irons and handcuffs on.
16:02And um his daughter did a documentary recently, but what drives him?
16:10>> [sighs] >> A combination of psychiatric reasons and uh you know, they'll tell you a lot of different stories. My mom hated me. My mom was a prostitute. You know, I sometimes these guys start as peeping Toms become rapists and then they want to kill. I mean, it's it's it's it's I don't necessarily think there's a single point failure in any of this stuff. It's a combination of things and and like I mean, there are people far more expert than I when it comes to child killers and serial killers, of course, but you know, what motivates them to do this?
16:44Are they killing themselves when they were at a young age when something happened to prevent the horrible things that happened to them later in life? I you know, I don't know. There's there's a lot of ways to look at it. Yeah.
16:53Smarter guys than me study it.
16:55But it it's it's shocking to me. And today you don't see him get a you don't see as many serial killers today because they don't get away with it for as long as they did then. The advancements in DNA and and surveillance, yeah.
17:10Surveillance.
17:11I mean, you know, coming over here from Midtown Manhattan today, I was probably captured on video a dozen times if not more.
17:19You know, you can't get away It's hard to get away with a crime and that's why the Nancy Guthrie case I think is so Yeah, what is going on now?
17:27>> mystifying. I don't know. I my heart just breaks for that family. I mean, I think of my mom in that situation, you know, an 84-year-old woman.
17:36And, you know, so overwhelmed and mystified. Why is somebody doing this to me and you know, to me it doesn't seem like a robbery gone bad because why would you take a woman with you? Right. And if if God forbid you know, she died during the course of a robbery, why take why create a bigger criminal problem for you?
17:58If it's a kidnapping why hasn't there been more of an effort to get money from it?
18:04You know, I don't think whoever pulled it off was very bright or wasn't an astute criminal. Who wears the gun in front of them like the way he was wearing it?
18:14Um the problem is dumb criminals can be dangerous and deadly.
18:19Criminals are criminals. So, was it a kidnapping where unfortunately something happened to Nancy Guthrie and they no longer have evidence proof of life?
18:29Maybe. I don't know the answer to it. I don't have a strong gut feeling in this case like I do in so many others.
18:36Um >> [snorts] >> Was she targeted because of what her daughter did for a living? I I don't think she was in a position where she created a lot of anger towards her, but maybe there was some thought that she had money and they could it was an easy mark.
18:51But you think of this poor woman lived in the house for 50 years.
18:56Widowed early, took in, you know, had her mother living with her, her her uh her brother who who uh you know, had some challenges and they they had a happy life. Right. And she went to work every day.
19:07You know, raised kids.
19:10One of whom became, you know, Savannah Guthrie, who I knew at NBC.
19:14Um, but I don't think anybody targeted her because of anything her daughter did. I mean, if somebody comes after me, I understand why, [laughter] right? I've messed with a lot of people.
19:23>> Yeah, yeah.
19:23>> But I I you know, I'm not taunting anybody to do that. I don't need that to happen, but you know, I I just I think it's going to be a a confluence of dunces that did something horrible and it led to something very bad happening to an 84-year-old woman. And and I I look at I talk to law enforcement about it every day. I'm not out there covering it, but you know, I've had incidents where I've had to deal with Walmart security in the past, and they are very good at what they do. They're very committed, and I can tell you that they're working around the clock running all kinds of AI programs to figure out, you know, where
19:58could the back the backpack have been bought? When? Did anybody buy a backpack and a face mask and a jacket at the same time? Did, you know, they're clicking away at this stuff nonstop. And every time something like this happens, they enhance their algorithm to be able to say, "Okay, we're looking for somebody who is between 5'9 and 5'11 who might have been at this store." You know, but there there you know, tons of Walmart stores. You know, imagine the footprint of Walmart and Sam's Club. There's good and bad that that the search field is enormous, but so is the data field. Right.
20:29>> So, I I have a feeling that they're going to figure this out.
20:33And the other thing is, you know, the reality is not all sheriff's departments are created equal.
20:39Mhm.
20:39>> casting any shade on the the sheriff's office down there, but to me, and again, this is just me, if I'm running the media for a law enforcement agency, I'm not going to be doing this scattershot interview here and there. I mean, I every day or every other day there should be a briefing, right?
21:00Sometimes the sheriff should be there and sometimes it should be the press person. And they read off a list of what's the latest. Done. Mhm. But it just it comes off so herky-jerky. And again, you know, I haven't solved the case, so why should I be, you know, critical of the guys who are trying to solve it? I know they're working hard on it, but I don't uh I I think they'll solve it.
21:21Uh sadly, it's gotten into a long haul. Yeah. But just whenever you think that, I mean, remember that, you know, those those four kids who were killed, the college kids killed in in Idaho.
21:31>> Yes. You know, everybody was starting to these cops don't know what they're doing, small town, campus cops, blah blah blah blah blah, and turns out all along they were on the on the hunt, and they got this guy, Kohberger. So, hopefully there's stuff going on that we don't know about. Hopefully it it comes to fruition, and and whoever did this uh will get caught. And and as Savannah Guthrie has said in her videos, you you just have to believe.
21:57There's nothing bad that happens by not believing in the most optimistic outcome, right?
22:03>> But with each passing day, it becomes more challenging, obviously, to be optimistic, so. Yeah, I can't imagine. I hope that whoever did it, I hope they find them and they rot in hell, but um it just None of it makes a lot of sense to me.
22:18>> Mhm.
22:19I can't figure out if it's just bizarre because the crime's bizarre and, you know, they caught themselves one foot ahead of law enforcement at the beginning or because It's going to be some fluke. It's going to be some fluke that you know, led them to commit this crime.
22:36And it's it's been a fluke that they've been able to get away with it.
22:40Right? A camera missed them, a camera was out. I mean, look at the fact that they were able to reconstruct that video is nothing short of amazing. I can't remember. It's the the the camera at the door that he tried to cover up and then took. Mhm. And they were able to go back and work with Microsoft to get that that video reconstructed, the video of him at the front door. That wasn't an automatic ground. They had to work the FBI had to go to uh Microsoft and and get that to reconstitute, you know, what was in the in the cloud.
23:14And lead it back to that particular camera that they don't have. So, in other words, they didn't find the cameras, my understanding. They were able to find information that was in the cloud from that camera because she hadn't subscribed to the service that would save it. So, I mean, just that and you know, then you got to hope that like in so many cases somebody sees some tick or some characteristic of the guy on the video that they say, "Oh, that's uh Frankie."
23:39You know, that's I know exactly who that is. That's what solves these cases.
23:42Somebody's got to drop a dime.
23:44Now, you were saying it's amazing the tools that they have now to be able to solve crimes.
23:49>> with a crime. It's hard to get away with a crime anymore.
23:51I mean, people try it.
23:54But and it happens.
23:56But uh you know, um somebody's going to know about it. It's just whether or not does that person come forward or do they find that evidence? What about for what you do though? Cuz like this started off like you said in the beginning it was three different types of chat rooms and whatever back then. Now there's a million places to do it. Where have you seen things whether it be AI or other types of technology assist law enforcement or even with you when you're working with law enforcement on these types of cases? Well, you know, we can track phone numbers. Right? Not every number can be tracked. There are ways to
24:28get, you know, fake numbers you know, VoIP numbers. But when we have a real number, they can run it through a database and we know what car is arriving. We know who it is, whether they got a criminal history, whether they got a concealed weapons permit.
24:43Um that's 50% of the time we know who's coming.
24:47Now, can they figure out a way around that? Yeah. Mhm.
24:51And then it's a bit of a mystery. Then I've got my hands full cuz I got to figure it out while I'm sitting across from or standing from him.
24:58But, you know, we always do. It by the end of the story, we know exactly who who this person is.
25:04Um challenging mostly because there are so many platforms upon which adults can approach children.
25:10You know, it's it's you can't be in every one of these things.
25:14You know, there's dating sites, there's you know, there's some some of these crimes are happening on generally accessible uh social media platforms like, you know, Facebook and um you know, uh Instagram. You know, the meta. I mean, we've had horrible cases where the just the guys cruise along finding girls to chat with and whoever hits back.
25:36>> [clears throat] >> You know, they look for profiles where the child is potentially vulnerable and they pray on that.
25:46And in the case of Roblox, I was just going to ask.
25:49>> Yeah. You know, we've been investigating predators exploiting kids on Roblox for the last 7 months or so.
25:57For people out there who don't understand Roblox or what it is, would you mind just explaining it?
26:00>> Roblox is a multi-tiered gaming platform. So, there are games on Roblox already that Roblox has designed that they offer and creators can make games and put them on Roblox.
26:16And as a user, you can also create a game and get permission and put it up there, too.
26:23So, you can it's a video game within a video game.
26:26Right?
26:27And so, there are all these different games that kids can play and it looks pretty innocent. Some of these characters look like Lego characters from a Lego movie. It is marketed towards kids as young as five.
26:42And if played properly with adult supervision, it creates amazing communities with very healthy experiences and allows people to express their creativity.
26:53Wildly successful, multi-billion dollar publicly traded company in San Mateo, California.
26:59>> [snorts] >> Led by the, you know, the co-creators of it.
27:03But, we have come across cases dating back 15 years where children were approached by adults and groomed and preyed upon. How did How does that happen?
27:16It happens in a couple different ways.
27:18Now, I need to say at the onset that >> [clears throat] >> recently Roblox has enacted some safety features including facial recognition and age verification that should prevent some of this from happening. But, as you know, children can find workarounds.
27:36Adults can find workarounds. And there are a lot of games that are kind of shady on there. You know, and then there's the connection between Roblox and Discord.
27:46Roblox and Discord? Roblox is a server on Discord.
27:50A lot of players go back and forth.
27:52There are Roblox communities on Discord.
27:54Mhm. So, there's this relationship there.
27:58And we started getting a lot of reports about adults posing as children on Roblox, adults uh inducing children to create child porn, to abuse others. There's the 764 element of it where 764, the nihilistic group you're familiar with.
28:18>> Yeah. Um goes on Roblox to create relationships and to abuse. They are They are.
28:25>> They're everywhere. [snorts] >> Oh my But, yeah, but that group, holy [ __ ] >> don't know I I I know people say what I say what drives them. It's well, they're nihilists.
28:33You know, they're just out to create chaos and harm people. Well, what do they get from that? Well, they get to harm people. But, what does it do for them to harm people? They're just that way.
28:43I mean, I interviewed a dad um for a recent episode of of Have a Seat with Chris Hansen, and he was so powerful.
28:51And his daughter was on Roblox and was co-opted by some of these 764 guys. And ultimately, she committed suicide. And and you know, the grief and the guilt and the reconstruction of it, but not only did they cause her to commit suicide, they convinced her to to live stream suicide attempts.
29:14He finds this out later. Then they start picking on him, the dad.
29:18And harassing him just for the the the sake of doing it.
29:23>> After she died?
29:24>> Yeah, before and after.
29:26Uh, this is an ongoing thing. So, we divert from from from Roblox itself, but so kids were getting abused by predators in Roblox.
29:37We start digging into it. I find a detective in Marion County, Florida, Henrik Austad, who is one of the national experts on this.
29:49And in one short period of time, just in Marion County, Florida, they arrested a young man who had abused on Roblox at least a dozen kids and probably more. Then we find the victim, a 10-year-old girl, of a Roblox predator who is in the UK.
30:07So, if this is going on in Marion County, Florida, what's going on in the rest of the world? And then we learn about a young man named Schlep, who I'm sure you're familiar with. He was a Yeah, YouTuber. He was a Roblox prodigy at 10, 11 years old. He was then abused by somebody on Roblox, and he was suicidal, ended up in the hospital, came back, and has made it his mission to expose predators on Roblox.
30:33>> How Just just for and, you know, I'm I'm not saying like going into graphic details and stuff like that, but when you say someone like Schlep got abused on Roblox. What are What are you referring to? I'm referring to somebody who is a well-known creator who decided to abuse their power dynamic and try to convince Schlep to do certain things that he apparently did not do, but but but when he wouldn't do things and when I talk about things in general on on on Roblox, there are predators who try to get children to take pictures of themselves or do things for their gratification, right?
31:15So and this is a common theme.
31:19So Schlep as a young man, young boy, becomes suicidal, goes to the hospital, great parents who get him through it, and then he decides he's going to, you know, expose some of these people on Roblox.
31:29You'd think that Roblox would embrace that. And they've been back and forth on having him a part of their team and not having him a part of the team. Right now, they they don't want him a part of the team, and they claim that he's going after people more associated with Discord than Roblox. Schlep would argue that, look it matters not. The people on on Discord have presence have a presence on Roblox, and it's it's often one in the same, right? If they got a server over there, people are recruiting people over there, it's the same thing.
32:02And then we find out that Schlep is represented by a law firm who at the beginning of our investigation this summer had 500 cases of people exploring potential legal action against Roblox because of being preyed upon.
32:19Since that time, they they now have 3,000 cases. 3,000.
32:23And then we start to find out that attorneys general across the country are investigating and suing Roblox as well.
32:31So you've got the attorney general of Louisiana, who we interviewed. You got the attorney general of the State of Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Texas.
32:41You know, all these attorneys general are going after Roblox for not keeping children safe on their platform.
32:47Now, Roblox held two or three different background briefings with me for the story, including one with their Chief Security Officer, Matt Kaufman.
32:58Gave a lot of information, very useful.
33:00We used it in the story, but they have thus far declined to do an on-camera interview. Mhm. And I pushed pretty hard.
33:07Because I know that it's it's more fair to Roblox if there's a face attached to this, right? You're not just putting up a statement on a graphic on a screen. You can talk to somebody. You can have a conversation with somebody, just like I did for background.
33:23But they've refused.
33:25And so now the, you know, the first episode, the first hour of our documentary is is out on True Blue, and people can see it and make up their minds for themselves.
33:35Do you think they refused because Mhm.
33:37they're afraid of the Hanson?
33:40They feel like you're going to get them dead to rights, or because they're just being too corporatey and going behind the shield?
33:45>> They're afraid.
33:48I I don't know whether they're afraid because I know more than other journalists know who ask them questions. They tend to like interviews in comfortable tech settings, where they can talk about new games and growth of engagement.
34:04Then in in more mainstream journalism, they like to go on shows where the interviews are two to three minutes, so there's not a lot of background checks. They don't want me to ask them why, for instance, they won't allow law enforcement to conduct investigations on their platform.
34:20Why Yeah, why do you think they're not letting them do that?
34:23>> Well, because I'm sure there are privacy concerns.
34:26They don't want to get the image that, you know, am I talking to another player? Am I talking to a cop? And to me, if you want to send a message to predators on your platform, you let law enforcement in on it and you shake them up a little bit. I mean, there are people on Roblox who are mad at me, mad at Schlep, for even looking into this.
34:42They think it's a parental responsibility and we should be able to do whatever we want, play whatever game we want on Roblox. And if a kid gets in trouble, their parents should have been keeping a closer eye on them. That's one of the It's a minority, but there are people who I see the snitty little comments on actually. I don't pay much attention to them, but you know, they'll say something about Schlep or they'll say something. I mean, look, it's very easy.
35:05Make it as safe as you can. And in terms of doing an interview, why would you not sit down and say, "Look, Chris, here's what we've done."
35:12Boeing did it when we investigated crashes of the 737. When when did you do that investigation?
35:17>> Back in the late '90s for Dateline. So, they let you in >> They took me to the factory, showed me the how they make the plane, showed me the tail, showed me the thing they were doing to make it safer. This is like after It was after the >> TWA and the No, it was That was a different plane. This was a crash that occurred in uh Pittsburgh. Okay. And there were other incidents involving the 737. And so, we did an investigation.
35:41Boeing, to its credit, had us come in, shot the plane being built, did all the stuff, and then sat down with an interview.
35:50And so, [clears throat] look, this is what we're doing. We're not convinced that this actually caused the fatal crash, but we're going to make sure this is the safest airplane in the air because it is the workhorse of the American fleet.
35:59>> Mhm. And then people can make up their own mind. If I were Roblox, I would lay out all the safety measures and answer the questions, the critical ones, truthfully, and then look at me and say, "And Chris, remember this, we're not committing these crimes, predators are."
36:17Right. End of story.
36:19So, I'm trying to draw some parallels in my head. It It's a similar type of situation to like Facebook letting police in to take a look at crimes that happen on their platform because bad actors come on and use an open >> Well, here's here's just to be clear.
36:35Now, the >> [snorts] >> folks at Roblox, like in all these other social media platforms, are mandated by Congress to voluntarily report inappropriate contact between children and adults, sexually charged content, CSAM, all that. They're They're supposed to report instances of this that they find to the National Center of Missing Exploited Children. NCMEC then farms these referrals out to law enforcement, the appropriate law The National Center for Missing Exploited Children. Okay. So, they get a tip on children being exploited, and that goes from Facebook, whatever, to or or or in this case, Roblox, to NCMEC,
37:21to law enforcement. And they do that.
37:23And there are cases that have been uh made because Roblox reported this, as they're supposed to.
37:29But why not let law enforcement go on and and conduct their own investigations? Why not create a chilling environment for for predators?
37:38So, there's another parallel I'm thinking of in my head about this, and it's not a perfect one, but you remember the whole San Bernardino shooter iPhone thing?
37:45>> Mhm.
37:46Where Tim Cook was like, "Shit, I really want to unlock that iPhone for you, but that sets a precedent about privacy laws in the future for people who might be innocent and things like that, which really diff- you're you're stuck between >> No, I understand it, but if I'm Tim Cook, I'm going to say, "This is a mass shooting, and we have to catch the guy, right?" And so, we're going to we're going to make a corporate decision, and I'm going to be a good corporate citizen and help law enforcement, and I'm going to do this. Right. So, here >> he's the CEO, he can do it. He can. Here I I understood where he was coming from
38:21on setting precedent, though.
38:23That said, uh this is this isn't my wheelhouse to know what the rights and and laws are here, but is there a way that Roblox could allow law enforcement to monitor the app and anytime they come across something that therefore is not actually something illegal or it's perfectly fine, the data from anything they collected on those people is required to be deleted and not held, meaning driver's seat protected.
38:54>> I don't even think it needs to go that far. I think if they're allowed to go do a sting here or there or do, you know, an occasional investigation, it sends a message just like our predator investigation sent to the community right, that we're going to be proactive.
39:07We're not going to wait until there's a victim. We're going to find these guys before there's a victim. We're going to use decoys and we're going to send a missile out there and the missile is going to, hopefully, be a deterrent to predatory activity. It's that simple.
39:21I mean, that's why they do these stings.
39:22That's why we do these stings.
39:23>> Yeah.
39:24How much of the Roblox, like you were citing the 764 examples and getting kids to send awful material and stuff like that or do awful acts, how much of Roblox then translates also to being groomed for meetups in the real world? Like how big of a problem is that?
39:41>> just in the last couple weeks. I interviewed the sheriff of Martin County, Florida.
39:46Two girls, sisters, teenagers, were in contact with a 19-year-old man from the Midwest, Idaho, I believe, and uh he convinced them that he could provide a better life than what they were having at home. And there was some challenge in the household, but nothing horrible. They weren't being beaten or abused. And so they he groomed them, drove all the way down, met them at a convenience store, and was going to take them back and live together with them back in his home.
40:20And you know, the word got out, the parents were apoplectic that these girls were missing. Called the sheriff's office. The sheriff says, "Who's what what what uh electronic product were they using?"
40:34"Well, we told them to stay off of Roblox because you know, we thought they were up to no good." "Well, let me see the tablet." They re-download Roblox and they're able to and Snapchat and they actually it went from Roblox to Snapchat. So, I think they they downloaded Snapchat again and the conversations were there. So, they're able to identify him and they they uh were able to track him to a convenience store where his photo was taken video-wise and there was a picture of his plate.
41:01So, they're able to report that figuring that he was headed back to his home.
41:08They put out an APB and the Georgia Highway Patrol picked him up and the girls were uninjured thankfully. But, this this happens with some frequency and the initial conversation starts on Roblox because that's where kids are and again, parents can can uh shut down this chat feature.
41:28And you're not supposed to be able to chat if your age is is too far apart.
41:34But, kids figure that out.
41:36Yes. And this has been going on for 15 years now. We interviewed a man who's now 30.
41:44Children of his own, military guy.
41:47Guy can deadlift 716 lb.
41:51Woody.
41:52And he was abused 15 years ago as a as a boy on Roblox and was brought to tears this tough guy was telling the story about, you know, being groomed by this predator, meeting him. Turns out he was an older guy and he tried to sexually assault him. Oh my god.
42:11And now he's, you know, got legal action against Roblox.
42:15How do We always use this term, righteously so, when we're describing how these predators win over the trust of their victims, and it's called grooming, but there's all different ways that it occurs. What on Roblox, where you're dealing with something on the internet, which is also like what you've dealt with in your own life?
42:35>> same grooming.
42:36I mean, it it follows a template. It's either an older guy pretending to be somebody who's younger, or it's an older guy who's going to co-opt and convince this child that he can provide something that the child needs or wants.
42:52And little by little breaks down the traditional barriers that exist between adults and children in our society, and convinces them to do something they shouldn't do.
43:04Is there a common kind of >> [snorts] >> thing or like key that gets unlocked?
43:09That's the a bad way to put it, where the Rubicon, every time, it's the moment it gets crossed.
43:15Or does it really, really vary?
43:17>> are similarities, but you know, each case is different. Each child is vulnerable in their own way. Are they from a broken home? Do they Are they currently having disagreements with their parents? Are their hormones raging? Do they Do they want to be viewed as somebody older? Do they want freedom? Do they want money? Do they want jewelry? I mean, it's it's These guys know how to push the buttons. And the problem is that this child may be in just a momentary uh location of vulnerability, but if the predator hits them at the exact right moment, it's a disaster.
43:50>> That's right. Right?
43:52Two days out of the way, they're over it. You know, it's like sextortion.
43:56You know, the next documentary we have at True Blue is sextortion, and we examine all these cases where young men or or boys are online, and they think they're talking to an attractive young woman, they trade naughty photos, and it turns out it's not a young woman, it's a uh extortionist in Nigeria.
44:13And now the guy wants money.
44:16And the kids got $500 in gift cards and gives all that away, and then there's no more, and he says, "Well, you know, FU, kill yourself." And these kids are so caught up in the moment, they think this guy is going to you know, publish the naughty photos, and they can't get it out of their mind that this is a momentary thing. In 2 weeks, you know, grandma's not going to see it, and in 2 weeks, nobody's going to care.
44:38But in the moment, the social media footprint, their presence, their identity is so intertwined with their ego that they don't see it. And and 15-16-year-old boys are killing themselves. I've sat with four sets of parents.
44:53There's a state legislature in South Carolina, Brandon Guffey, son killed himself. Same thing. And he goes and talks to people all the time about this. And he tells these kids, he goes, "Look, first of all, your junk's probably out there already if you're, you know, so don't even don't even think about that being a problem because nobody cares.
45:13And you can go to NCMEC, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, and they'll help you scrub the internet of anything you may have sent inadvertently or anything you were tricked into sending. They can do that. They can do that.
45:24But the point of it is, these kids who kill themselves because of a momentary sense of shame, if they rode it out for another week, they're applying to colleges. Yeah.
45:38They're back with their girlfriend. I'm stupid. And so, to me, a lot of this comes back to parents. Yeah. And parents have to say, not I'm not blaming parents, but parents have to create an environment where if their child gets lured into something, they feel comfortable enough to say, "Look, I effed up.
45:58I need your help to get out of this."
46:00And the parents not going to yell at him. They can to call him stupid after the fact or tease him about it or whatever. It becomes a joke at some point. What's not a joke is when the kid shoots himself in the head. Yeah. It's not a joke when the kid hangs himself in the closet.
46:13And man, I'd tell you having kids of my own, you know, being out of the danger zone, nothing would ruin me, would destroy me like the death of a child. I could do I'm a tough guy. I could deal with a whole lot of stuff, but losing a child at 15, 16 years old, anytime, you know, a child's death precedes yours, it is it is life altering. And the fact that they even get through this and can be advocates for other kids and other parents is nothing short of amazing to me. And I have nothing but enormous respect for all those parents who deal with this. And for those who sat for the documentary, which is like I said coming
46:52out after Worldstar.
46:54Yeah, we'll have that link down below by the way. But yeah, I I can't I don't have kids of my own yet. I really look forward to having them and you can't know what that's like until >> No, until you do it. And I you know, I hope I I never know what it's like and I hope no other parent has to ever go through it again, but it's it's it's absolutely the most painful thing I can imagine.
47:18>> [sighs] >> What about when you are of course you feel awful for every parent you sit with and they're and they're devastated and that that's that that's that's a given.
47:27But how difficult is it when you're sitting with these parents who are devastated after the fact and it's one where you're hearing the story and you're seeing all the places where like they should have had more guardrails on there. They should have known or they should have monitored this this or that more.
47:45>> Well, you ask the question in a very sensitive way because it'll elicit a response that'll help another parent from know how to not go through it, but you know, I don't go out to blame any parents. And you know, I don't know what my kids did 24/7. I'm sure they had close calls. I had close calls that my parents never found out about." I mean Yeah.
48:06Inches from death. I grew up in an era where, you know, you walked out and with a BB gun or a bow and arrow and went to go play around in the woods for 6 hours when you're 10 years old. I mean, you know, we we weren't we weren't very tightly regulated, you know. And as the the oldest of three and the only boy, you know, you know, there are elements of your life where you were sort of raised by wolves, you know. You had your buddies and your pals. It was, you know, Lord of the Flies. We had a ball. Nobody ever got seriously hurt. Did we come close?
48:33Did you almost lose an eye? Did you almost crash a mini bike? Yeah, all that stuff.
48:37But for the grace of God you know, you and you've got to count on that. You need a little luck raising a kid. And and but sometimes you don't have that lucky stroke. And sometimes the kid makes a bad decision. And sometimes you're not there to catch it. And so all you can do is try to create an environment where the kid feels open enough where he can say, "Hey, you know, I got a problem here. You need to We need to get this right fixed up." And then that's that's the best advice I can give.
49:01Um And and even that's not foolproof.
49:04But that's why I harp on all these safety issues on Roblox. And Roblox is going to be all mad and, you know, we do more than any other platform. And fine.
49:12Great. Good on you.
49:14But let's let's tighten this up. And by the way let's talk about it. Let's hear from these victims. Let's hear from the lawyers trying to hold the company accountable. Because that discussion creates awareness and a dialogue that needs to take place. Just like the predator investigations, the takedown investigations we do. All of this stuff.
49:36It's about awareness and dialogue. And if I can light a fire under people and get them to talk about it with their kids, then I won.
49:44Well, it's also you make a great point that the company should want to sit down with you and should want to be transparent to fix the problem. And that's a mistake on their part.
49:53>> sit down with other people, but again, it tends to be, you know, with people in the tech world.
49:58>> yeah. Yeah, that doesn't count. I'm saying like with someone like you who's really trying to solve this problem, if I could see outside of you, if I could see from their perspective with some of these class action lawsuits and stuff like that with lawyers, you know, those lawyers are doing their job, and they're representing usually families who whose kids were victims.
50:18>> in one way or another.
50:19>> Exactly. So, I'm not blaming the lawyers or anything like that, but I could see from the company's perspective how it might get like scary to to even address it. You know what I mean?
50:30>> you also see a pattern of behavior on the part of Roblox where they, you know, they're trying to hire the spokesman for the, you know, Republican Attorneys General Association. You know, they they try to get people in law enforcement to be on their team. They donate money to the Alliance of Attorneys General. You know, they want to be able to say, "We're we're the we're the the solution here." You know, they're throwing a lot of money around, you know, when when they should maybe be throwing a little more awareness around, I think. Yeah.
50:57Now, what I mean, you talked about it a little bit ago that there's tools kids are they're smart with tech, they can just get around it and stuff, but you know, that's that's one of the scariest things about becoming a parent for me is like it just gets worse every year. All the different resources and tools and places someone can get hurt, and you do like you said, you got to have some luck as a parent, too. You can't put a helmet on your kid and have them go through life that way or be a helicopter. They have to be able to fend for themselves on certain ways.
51:26>> to learn those skills. I mean, you know, I always look at it this way, you know, caveman babies survived and saber-tooth tigers roam the earth, you know, civilization was initiated to to continue. And, you know, you you know, there's a God, and most days things go well, but you know, bad stuff can happen.
51:44Kids can get preyed upon on games like Roblox. 84-year-old women can disappear, you know, for for no fault of their own.
51:51I mean, bad stuff happens out there. And the more we talk about it, but don't live, you know, behind locked gates all the time. You have to go live your life, but you have to be aware of these potential things. And you're right, it it gets more challenging every year. I mean, we had I didn't My oldest son was who's 34 now, you know, when he was in high school, there's World of Warcraft.
52:12Mhm.
52:13>> And you had to be on a computer to do it.
52:15Phones weren't that sophisticated and tablets weren't really around then. So, you had to sit on the computer and do it in a common area of the house. And it was bedtime, it was bedtime. Well, I can't, I'm letting the fellows down.
52:25Well, who are the fellows? Well, they're my guys playing Get to bed.
52:29End of story. Right. Play another day.
52:32Yeah, there'll be more fellows to play with.
52:34But, you know, now they God, it's just overwhelming. And And I And I think it's important for parents not to try not to be overwhelmed by the technology.
52:42You limit your children's exposure. You limit the methods that can be used for adults to approach your child.
52:54Turn off the chat function. Mhm. Look over their shoulder.
52:57Understand the games. You know, if it's a bathroom game, the kid's not playing it.
53:03If the game, you know, where There are games like that that have been on Roblox historically, the bathroom game. And it's like you walk your character walks into a bathroom and sees different things and you go to different levels and it's it's sexually Yeah. aggressive.
53:16And it's not appropriate for kids, but there was a point where kids had access to that. Mhm. You know, Roblox has indicated that it's tried to shut that down, but you know, in a in a in a platform like that, or in Discord or in a lot of different places, you know, there there are dark corners of those platforms where kids can get into trouble. Well, that's the thing and that's what's really disappointing that's coming through in what you're saying is not just a transparency or the lack of transparency access but or or or point that you made. It's like you know, even when I tried to play devil's
53:50advocate 2 minutes ago you you you can cite [laughter] the sources of the [ __ ] they do. It sounds like they don't really want to solve the problem.
53:57>> think Roblox wants predators harming children on their platform. I don't think so. I mean these people have kids too, right? But how much do they want to stop it?
54:04>> general, you know, anything that limits engagement is bad for business. And so I don't believe they found the right balance. Now again, these things that they have done have been helpful and I'm sure they prevented some engagement between adults and children. But you know, I mean maybe I'm asking too much of the company. I don't think I am.
54:27And and this has been going on for 15 years. So and the other question is had we not been barking about this for the last 6-8 months, had these lawsuits not been filed, had these attorneys general not gotten involved um would this have happened? I mean would they have made the the the um advancements in security that they have made? I would argue no.
54:51And again, you're letting you're letting a company legislate its own safety.
54:56This is also a place where like my brain now uh I want to look at everything Well, [laughter] I I can only I can only imagine I can only imagine but like I mean just to try to understand it you know, and and uh you know, thankfully, you know, we've got people who dig into this, who make it their business to be, you know, on the inside of it and um you know, both in law enforcement and and um in uh law making.
55:25And but you know, there there's I had a conversation with uh the Florida attorney general.
55:30Sharp guy.
55:32Who's that? And uh it's James uh Uthmeier. Okay.
55:35And um he's not in the first episode, but he'll be in the second episode. And I did a podcast episode with him, too. People can check it out. Um Yeah, let's make sure we we link the Have a Seat with Chris Hansen podcast down below.
55:47Have a Seat with Chris Hansen and Predators I've Caught. And we have uh video versions on the Have a Seat with Chris Hansen YouTube channel.
55:54But he was very careful in the course of my interview.
56:01But indicated that there may be some information that was requested via criminal subpoena.
56:12Right? You subpoena these things in criminal cases that may have not been properly turned over. Now, he was very careful, so I don't want to overstep into there.
56:22But it sounded to me, as somebody who's covered these cases for a very long time, that there could potentially be liability there based upon the Florida Attorney General's investigation.
56:34Um so, we'll see how that plays out.
56:40That's something to think about, huh?
56:41>> Well, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I'm glad there's some out there who are really trying to do something about it, for sure.
56:46>> it's and it's not just it's it's Florida, it's Louisiana.
56:49Uh it's uh Kentucky, Tennessee.
56:53I believe South Carolina. I I think it's up to about eight different states now.
56:59It does concern me, though.
57:03Like I remember 3 years ago, Shawn Ryan, when he was on my show in episode 148, he was he was talking all about this.
57:09And it's like you can't even believe this is real. But you have legislators in some other states who are trying to argue to use like terminology like MAPs, like minor-attracted persons.
57:19>> Yeah, I that's it's just that shouldn't even be in that >> Right?
57:23>> in the in the sphere of a discussion.
57:25There's no legitimacy to predators, pedophiles, criminals being classified as somebody who's got you know, some sort of legitimate attraction to a minor. We create laws to protect minors from being sexually exploited.
57:48And some of the ages may seem arbitrary to predators, but the reality is we have to draw a line.
57:58And society does the best it can to to protect children from being tricked into situations where they're sexually exploited. And that's why we have an age of consent.
58:10And if a child is below that age of consent, even if they say yes, they can't give permission to be sexually exploited.
58:20All right.
58:20>> And that's why we have these laws.
58:22So, here's here's a weird one that I think about a lot now cuz it's actually extremely realistic.
58:32So, in a lot of marriages in America, there's a common age difference of two or three years. Yeah. Like there's a very common trend of not always, but you know, it's like common that the husband will be, you know, 35 and the wife will be 33 or 32.
58:48Now, imagine they're high school sweethearts, right? The husband meets the wife when he's a junior and she's a freshman and they begin dating and they're teenagers and they're interacting as teenagers do.
59:03Then one day he's a senior and he turns 18 and she's 16.
59:09What what's the Well, typically there's a sunset clause in these. So, in other words, it you know, the age of consent is 16 if you're talking about somebody who's within 2 years of that. If you're talking about somebody who's 5 years older, then then it's a different set of circumstances. So, that the laws try to address that situation.
59:31Uh you know, you bring up an interesting point. You know, there was a documentary done recently uh on the looking at the whole To Catch a Predator takedown experience. And you know, there it's one director's point of view, right? And there's some good things, some productive things out of it. And I cooperated with it. There's some things that were left out that I thought were important. But one of the critical aspects the aspects that were critical of my investigations was that in one case, there was an 18-year-old who was caught trying to hook up with a 15-year-old.
60:03And he was criminally prosecuted, but the case was sent to diversion. Mhm.
60:08And the the the question they interviewed the kid's mother who got busted. And [snorts] she was critical of us and our investigation and claimed that he couldn't go to his high school graduation because of the embarrassment of getting caught.
60:22Well, there's a big age difference between 18 and 15.
60:26Right? 18 and 15, first of all, is not 30 and 33. That's right. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
Read the essay version →