0:01Why were you angry at your wife?
0:02>> Well, cuz I came home and uh I mean, she's so naive to like Afghanistan and what she was like she thinks that's what she probably my wife's like so naive like which makes her a good made her a good wife for that kind of job. Like she probably thinks cops go every night and just you know, get shootouts and stuff like that. I was came home and told her what happened and she's like rolled over and went back to sleep like it was no big deal. Oh, good day at Oh, sounds like good day at work.
0:22And uh and I'm like I'm like wide awake obviously. Just shot someone and uh and and uh And so she she's you know, she was young and had no idea how to handle that and and uh or or comprehend that and it's probably why you know, she's endured all that all that she endured and when we were married uh It's probably why she endured all that, you know, cuz she she was naive to that kind of stuff. So I was I wasn't mad at her and then I was like I just stayed mad at at the guy and uh and uh And honestly, like it's probably of all the stuff that I've seen in Ukraine and Afghanistan and it it's probably
0:56personally the most traumatic thing.
0:59I mean, I've had a very scary experience. It's just the proximity of it. It was so personal.
1:03>> Right there.
1:03>> Yeah, he you know, him looking back, he killed me, him bleeding on me, uh him his kid his wife screaming, his kid right there. It's the most personal thing I've ever been through. I I still like even talking right now, I just get it shakes me up to talk about it.
1:16>> I can see.
1:16>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't talk about it much.
1:19>> Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing it. I appreciate that.
1:22Real quick, Chad, I got to run to the bathroom.
1:24>> I'm right there with you.
1:25>> And then we'll we'll come back and >> But by the way, I I said it to you, but to your audience.
1:31For you again, Julian has the best coffee. It's so [laughter] good.
1:35Yeah, it's got me jittery, man. It's good coffee.
1:36>> Yeah, that one was a strong batch today.
1:38[laughter] It was a strong batch this morning, but I'm glad to hear that.
1:41We'll be right back, everybody.
1:43All right, we're back. So, where you were you spent 4 years as a police officer during that time while you were in reserves?
1:50>> Yeah.
1:50>> Where were you on 9/11?
1:53>> Man, I was uh So, when that shooting, I went to the detective bureau. I worked violent crimes, and then I went back to narcotics as a senior detective over um special investigations division.
2:05And so, it was a I was on a one one that, you know, midnight 9/11, I was I was out on a um surveillance. So, I spent all night sitting in my truck on a surveillance for wait waiting for this armed robber to hit this place.
2:20And uh nothing happens, you know, I go home and uh I you know, about to go to bed now. I'm sitting on I can't remember what time what time the towers were hit.
2:29>> Uh maybe 8:46.
2:31>> Yeah, and then I I knew it was >> 9:02 or 9:03.
2:33>> Yeah, I knew it knew it was early, but uh yeah, so I'm I'm at home living room and I see the first plane hit on on television and I I I think the same thing everyone else everyone else thinks, what kind of [ __ ] drives an airplane into a building, right? Second plane hits and uh and I'm immediately I'm like, you know, my life just changed.
2:51>> Did you know who it was or did you have an inkling who it was?
2:54>> No.
2:54>> But you knew I did.
2:56>> mean, I yeah, I knew it was a I knew it was an an attack.
2:58And uh you know, >> [clears throat] >> even being in the reserves, being in a you know, a unit like third force reconnaissance company, uh I'm like, you know, if you're at the mindset of being at a special operations unit, you're like, I'm going to go to war like right away and kind of thought that I would. And uh but like I said earlier, it's just not how it works, you know, not everybody goes.
3:16>> Right.
3:17>> And so, as bad as I wanted I resigned from the that week, I resigned from the sheriff's department, and I went to an active reserves to my unit.
3:23I [snorts] was pushing to deploy, I we didn't deploy and uh and uh I I was bummed, man, I wanted to go.
3:29>> So, when did you end up cuz you ended up doing eight tours in Afghanistan, some of it as a contractor to JSOC, is that the way to put it? So, when when did you first deploy when you were still in the military?
3:40>> I didn't I didn't.
3:41>> It was all as the contractor.
3:43>> yeah, JSOC, yeah. So, I I went to uh so, I went went to the air marshals, go to air marshals, and then I go to uh >> Mhm.
3:50>> and then um and then I my unit's to deploy to Iraq. So, I'm going to go I'm going to deploy some Marine with third force augmenting second force recon to Iraq. And then so, I start working up on the deployment. And during the deployment I had a friend reach out to me and say, "Hey, you should try out for this this JSOC task force is having a this a contract there."
4:08>> So, leave the military and come to the private contract side.
4:12>> Yep. Yeah.
4:13>> So, what did that look like?
4:15>> Uh, I can't say all of it obviously the unit, but you know, at at JSOC you have your premier unit you have like task force orange, you have Delta Force, SEAL Team Six, you know, all the all the different the seven different units at JSOC. And so, And so, I >> [clears throat] >> I went over there to support one of the units as a they're doing clandestine logistics. And so, um, I didn't quite [snorts] know what unit I was going to be with and and I didn't know really understand the job. But essentially what I told you earlier about the job of doing clandestine logistics, doing advanced force operations. That's what I
4:43went there to do. And so, it was a lot of training to to learn how to do that job and go and go forward to do that job.
4:49>> Now, what's different about going into it as a contractor from the outside versus like being in the military? Is are there a lot more gloves off type procedures you can do?
4:59>> Uh, I don't know. I mean, you're still working for the military. So, all the all the legalities and parameters are same. I think there's a sense of like a little bit further distancing to be non-attributable. Uh, so you're a contractor there's you the US government's not completely attributable to your thing. Although, when I first started I was contracting through another company. Uh, there was a little bit of layering, but towards the end I was I was contracting directly with my command.
5:24>> Mhm.
5:25>> And so, that relationship was pretty tight. And you know, I I reported directly to the the XO and CO of my unit. So, it wasn't [snorts] much different. I mean, you're not wearing a uniform. You don't get paid the same.
5:35You get paid a little bit more.
5:36>> Mhm.
5:36>> Uh, but I think everyone that was contracting at that that unit doing that job was doing it for a sense of service and patriotism aside of a job. So, >> this is '03 to '07?
5:47>> [snorts] >> The deployment was >> '03 to to to 2007. April April 2007 is when it >> How long would each deployment be? 3 months kind of deal?
5:55>> Yeah, three three anywhere from three to six months for for me.
5:59>> So, obviously there's some classified stuff you can't say like like you said.
6:02So, anything >> Yeah, I mean my book if my book Saving Aziz like it went to the Pentagon for full Pentagon review.
6:08So, kind of kind of the liberty I have is actually know what's what they would act it. And so, I kind of know what what I can and can't >> All right. So, we'll we'll get into the stuff you know and when there's stuff we run into that you can't, no problem.
6:19Just say that. But, you'd be going there for 3 months at a time. You're doing the recon stuff where you're going ahead kind of setting the stage for then some of these special forces teams to come in.
6:30And you're serving in six-man teams?
6:32>> No, no. It's pretty much either I'm usually with one other teammate or by myself with Aziz.
6:37>> Wow. Okay. So, you're all right. So, it's different >> it kind of single singleton would be like the terminology.
6:42>> Yeah, what's it like like obviously you're an American.
6:45You're coming in these places. There's a lot of Americans all over the country cuz of what's going on. So, that alone is not enough to set you up.
6:51>> I think a lot of people a lot of people think that's like surprising. Oh, how would people think you and there are NGOs all over any war zone in the world.
6:58>> But, you're in plain clothes. So, you could technically blend in.
7:02>> Mhm.
7:02>> And they wouldn't necessarily know, oh he's working with Delta or any one of these teams or something like that.
7:07Okay.
7:08Now, '03 to '07 is interesting because you're going there right when Iraq kicks off.
7:14>> Yes.
7:14>> And when I look back at the history of Afghanistan, it's like we can argue about all the logistics around 9/11.
7:21That's certainly a conversation.
7:22[clears throat] We do know that at least like the guys who flew the actual planes were associated with Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda was being harbored in Afghanistan by the Taliban.
7:36So, the US goes to Afghanistan. All right, that makes sense.
7:40Iraq was a whole different thing. So, when they go to Afghanistan, they pull off minus getting Bin Laden, they didn't do that, but they pulled off one of the more impressive paramilitary operations ever done in world history at the time.
7:53And I would, even looking back on it now, the first year or two in Afghanistan looks like some really good things happened from a military perspective. Now, you go there in '03 when they're now going into Iraq in March '03. And looking back on it, it does feel like the old quote that like kind of took your eye off the ball, resources go to go to Iraq, and then Afghanistan slowly sinks down into a [ __ ] hellhole over the next 18 years at that point.
8:23When did you start to notice in your 4-year period there, or did you notice at any point that hey, it seems like some of these guys we took out are starting to quietly build up again?
8:37>> Yeah, I think as far as the military effort goes, because of where I was and who I was with, I didn't notice there was a a lack of attention put because I'm with the I'm with a Tier 1 unit who gets all the resources and funding it needs. So, their mission was very well supported.
8:51I think the conventional military's mission would have been, you know, become a little less and less over time. But that that Tier 1 unit's their their mission was very supported. They're heavily funded. Everything they needed was done. And they and they actually I think the progression of what they were doing and what they're capable of doing from 2001 to probably 2012 would have continued to be amplified.
9:16All the way till, you know, they got Bin Laden. And so, I think I was in a I was in a kind of a niche area to where I just seen a tremendous amount of resources and support going into the operation that we were doing.
9:29And so, but I do think you're correct in the military. I mean, we're spread thin between two major wars.
9:36And uh and there was a lot of the conventional effort shifted to Iraq.
9:40>> Yeah, and you also brought this up earlier, and we should go back to it because every single guy I talked to who served significant time in Afghanistan, I'm talking Navy SEAL guys from multiple teams, including Team 6, Delta guys, Army Ranger guys, and definitely missing a couple in there. Every one of them talks about, you know, the thing that people didn't talk about at dinner parties with the culture over there, which I'll just use the direct quote many of them have independently given me that seems to be common in Afghanistan where they say women are for kids and boys are for fun.
10:15Mhm. And it is a rampant undercurrent culture. I don't care where the [ __ ] it is. I'm going to call that out. It's crazy. Like at what point did you realize that was as widespread as it was?
10:27>> Uh right away. Right away. I mean, because just because of the fact that I I mean, you got thinking in eight diplomats there. I spent like 2 weeks on a base. So, lived out in the community, and and so, learned right away that, you know, w- women are for babies and boys are for for for fun, you know, and and and these little boys especially like in i- within the Taliban, these little boys are generationally like like raped like a- as as boys, and then they turn around and do it to the next generation. So, it's it's rampant. Uh and it's you know, uh yeah, I I I I always like struggled like they're going to fight a jihad war and
11:07and be so spiritually driven uh that they will end up, you know, put on a suicide vest or or fight to the death over the spiritual ideol- the spiritual belief and ideology of war, but yet they're going to >> Yep.
11:21>> be engaged in pedophilia. It never It's It's such a contra- contradiction of morality.
11:28>> I'll say.
11:29>> That I I I just never really understood it. It's just I mean and when it when these little girls, man, when these little girls get married off, most of them are just they're still think they're kids. They're they're getting, you know, dragged through heels dug in, dragged through away from their parents >> [snorts] >> wanting to just play and they're getting dragged off at 9 years old, 10 years old, 11 years old to go be married off to some 50, 60-year-old monster that's going to rape them the rest of their rest of their life. It's like it's horrific. And uh I mean especially right now, like after post-Afghanistan,
11:58post-Afghanistan, we got 20 million women and little girls in Afghanistan right now and they're they're already, you know, marrying them off as soon as 9 years old. And and and and even the ones they aren't marrying off, they're like the ones that were our former allies, their daughters are being, you know, sexually uh raped to death.
12:16And there's what where's the Me Too movement? Where's the uh human rights people for them?
12:21You know, it's it's an atrocity that that people are quiet about it.
12:25Why won't Hollywood stand up? Stand up for for these little girls, you know?
12:28Why why not these little girls?
12:30Uh they don't, man. It's So, yeah, my heart's always been with these these children. So, early on, to answer your question, early on, I was exposed to it and it was it was very uh it was it was very uh you know, disturbing to me. It really it really drew that drove a hatred inside of me to who the Taliban was on on top of 9/11, right? Uh on top of like why we were there in the first place.
12:52And like this who the bad guy is, we're really easy to hate them.
12:56>> Did you guys talk how I mean, I imagine you did what when when you were talking with your guys about this when you [clears throat] weren't just with the Z's or something like that?
13:06How do you even talk about something like that while you're in there mission driven?
13:11>> Oh, yeah, it's it's easy. I mean, we just talk about I just talk about how old these guys were and just like like >> But also the people that you're trying to use to like build the new military, the non-Taliban, they're engaged in the same [ __ ] >> in the same stuff, too. I I You know, the Taliban's worse, though. I I will say that culturally the Taliban's worse because they're because of the because they take them they take these boys from their families at a young age to go to the madrasas and be in Taliban. So, they they take them and now they don't have parental protection and so they start raping them
13:42at a young age and they do that to the next generation. The Taliban is much worse. It happens as systemically across the culture, but it's it's it's 10 times worse in the Taliban.
13:51You know, but but the in in the Afghan community while [snorts] while this is systemic child pedophilia is systemic there, there are good families that don't engage in that. Like Aziz's example, like I mean Aziz's families Aziz's wife just babysat my daughter like 2 days ago.
14:08>> my next question. Did you talk with him about this?
14:10>> All the time.
14:11>> And what did he say about it?
14:12>> Oh man, they think it's disgusting. Like he thinks it's disgusting and they you know, they and they were careful like where their kids were around, you know, like because they know how rampant it is. So, it's it's systemic, but it's not everyone.
14:26>> And uh >> And yeah and uh yeah, I think it is cuz cuz uh you don't want to put everyone in one category, but where it is like seems like 100% systemic is the Taliban, like that culture.
14:37>> Yeah, I you know, I was telling you earlier there's moments that stand out in here and there was one when I was talking with Andy Bustamante >> Mhm.
14:47>> in episode 299 I was asking about the worst places he'd ever been and one of the ones he mentioned was being meeting with a warlord in Africa in the country that he didn't name.
15:00And when he was there he saw the child soldiers around him. They're all 9, 10, at most 11 years old.
15:08And he said they would put all these kids on, you know, cocaine-like drugs and [ __ ] and they would rape them.
15:16>> Mhm.
15:17>> And then those kids would grow up and turn into the general if they lived, turn into the general sitting in front of them.
15:24And the guys who worked with him.
15:26>> Yeah.
15:26>> And do the same thing to the next generation. And I said to him, I said, "How do you How do you stop that cycle? How do you get rid of that?" And he leaned back and Andy's a blunt guy, but you could tell even he was uncomfortable with the answer and you know him, but like he was uncomfortable with the answer he was going to give. He leaned back and he paused and he said, "This is going to sound so bad."
15:50>> Mhm.
15:51>> And I'm like, "Just go." And he goes, "You got to kill them all."
15:55>> Mhm.
15:56>> And I'm like, "Kill them all?" He All of them.
16:00You got to put them all down and you got to start over.
16:03>> Yeah.
16:04>> And you know, as much as that sounds like an awful solution and something that morally I would never like get behind just killing every Yeah.
16:13>> I'm like, I'm looking at it and I'm saying to myself cuz it's He's not advocating like genocide or something like that. He's talking about just specifically like the soldiers there, which will include some child soldiers and stuff.
16:25And I And all I could think about is I was like, "All right, Julian, you don't want to do that cuz that sounds awful.
16:33Do you have a better solution though?"
16:34>> Mhm.
16:35>> Like internally I was thinking in my head and I was like, "At this moment I don't have a better solution than that.
16:40What What I you know, morally what does that say?"
16:44>> Yeah, I mean I I I agree. Like I mean you look at the Taliban culture like how do you undo someone that's been exposed to that?
16:50>> Yeah.
16:52>> I I I I don't know the answer to that. I mean the ideology and the way that the thinking that is is it it's impressed into who they are.
17:03>> Yes.
17:03>> You know, it's a and then you I mean [snorts] there's redemption available for everyone, but man, I don't know how you turn that think kind of think thinking around.
17:12>> At [snorts] the time when you were operating in Afghanistan, you know, especially when you get to the end of the four years and the eight deployments before we get to why you decided to leave and all that.
17:21Did you feel like you were really getting somewhere and accomplishing things?
17:26>> I don't believe I don't believe I felt that Afghanistan as a whole. I felt like it was an endless like a like like bailing out of you know, bailing bailing out of boat full of holes, you know. Just like I don't believe Afghanistan as a whole, but for our mission I I felt like we were getting somewhere.
17:43I felt like we were cuz cuz [clears throat] it was it was very tangible when when you're at the unit I was at. They had a target list.
17:48And you know, basically whoever's in the top 10, that's who they're going after.
17:52And we were knocking them down. The command was knocking them down. Maybe I was with these guys or these guys at these at these these are soldiers at the at these premier tier one units.
18:01They're freaking they're amazing human beings.
18:04And and they do such a great job. And they were and not just not just the the shooters.
18:08Like the the whole system like the intel like the they uh they were doing a phenomenal job. I mean they were taking targets out. And you know, every time you take one out, one rises up.
18:19>> Right.
18:19>> But they were taking them out. And so I felt there was tangible wins for us because of the the job we did. But I was observing the Afghanistan as a whole and I'm like, man it's just like we like I said, we're bailing out of boat with holes in it. And uh and that's kind of what I felt like.
18:35>> Now, working you're not allowed to say which tier one unit you were working with, but people can >> Yeah.
18:41>> guess there's there's a lot of really [ __ ] amazing ones either way. They're all top tip of the spear, if you will.
18:47Did you feel like those guys cuz sometimes this goes either way. They talk about these teams being really insular or like really cool. Did you feel like those guys viewed you on the level or there was a little bit of a hey, you just kind of do your [ __ ] for us and >> Yeah.
19:05>> we're here.
19:05>> Yeah, there's a terminology in in all of special operations called enabler. And so you go from being operator like uh to enabler. And uh but I really believe in a job but like the job's not less when you're doing the kind of work we're doing the job's not less important. It's like, you know, it's And so at first I kind of felt like, "Oh, okay, I'm here to support those guys. Those guys are going to go through the door. They're going to breach the door. They're going to go in there.
19:25They're going to get the either capture or kill a bad guy." And uh my job's support those guys. That's my role right now. I'm going to do the very best job I can. When I got there I realized that oh my gosh, like the guys who are here way more qualified than me.
19:37>> Mhm.
19:37>> And uh either could intimidate you into kind of kind of cowering down or or or challenge you to do the best job you can. And for me like being a recon Marine, being there and and realizing like how s- lucky I was to be there, I felt like I had to I want to represent my community really well. And so I worked really hard and uh and that earned me to at the very end I got picked to be on the kind of premier job.
19:59>> What do you mean by premier job?
20:00>> Uh I mean there was a there was an effort at the very end, a project that was going to be in a neighboring country. I won't say which one cuz the Pentagon redacted my book. It's pretty easy to figure out. It was going to be a neighboring country by myself.
20:11>> Neighboring country to Afghanistan.
20:13>> Yeah. So [laughter] yeah, but by myself to go and uh and and help, you know, help get those guys on target for some of the top top few guys on there, you know, from number one down. So so I'm I'm going to get And everybody wanted that job and I got picked to do it. And uh and um you know, I was I was pretty proud of that. I was very proud of that.
20:32>> Were you ever in those four years tasked with something related to tan- tangentially or directly with trying to hunt Bin Laden?
20:40>> Of course. Yeah, so whoever was was Whoever was at I mean the whole command was at for that.
20:44>> Yeah.
20:44>> And uh Well, some guys when I ask that question are like, "No, we're doing other shit." A lot of guys actually.
20:48That's why I ask. But >> Yeah.
20:50>> that's what >> he he was he was the target. I mean, he was the target until 2011 till we got him.
20:55Two from September 11th, 2021 I mean, it's September 11th, 2001 till till uh 2011 he was the he was the target.
21:04>> Mhm.
21:05>> Now, I think the capturing or killing of him several times have been intervened by our government for whatever reasons left let him live.
21:13Uh I've just heard that.
21:14>> Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that they knew where he was sometimes and decided not to kill him?
21:20>> I just heard that. I don't know if it's true or not.
21:22>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I mean I'm I mean uh I know a lot of people get the guy Shrek McAfee a hard time.
21:29Um but but you know, he he talks about a personal incident to where they they had him you know, had it had a chance to get him and was called off or whatever.
21:37>> What year approximately?
21:38>> I don't know what year it was. I think I think that was I think that was early. I think it was early on.
21:43No, what John John McAfee is his name?
21:45>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shrek McAfee.
21:46>> Yeah, he talks about that on the on the Sean Ryan on the Sean Ryan show.
21:49>> Why would they >> Rogan he talks about it on >> Why would they not want to get him?
21:55>> I don't know. Uh I mean I mean you know, was he you know, his level of complicency with with the attacks and what he may or may not know.
22:07May not maybe they didn't want him they didn't want him captured.
22:11I want to make sure that when we did get him he'd be dead. I I don't know. I don't know. Um I just thought it was always strange.
22:17I've heard that two or three times from different people.
22:20>> Dead men can't talk.
22:21>> That uh yeah, I heard I heard two or three times from different people that we could have got him and we didn't.
22:26Um and then uh >> Does that piss you off?
22:29>> It did at the time. I didn't understand it uh when I when I heard it, but now I now it makes a little more sense to me.
22:34I mean I'm I'm thankful and and I do believe by the way, I do believe we did get him in in 2000. I know a lot of people are like there's a lot of people like oh, we didn't see his body. Why did they throw it at sea and this was President Obama. I I believe they got him. Um you know, they got the whole drama going on between, you know, um Rob O'Neill and all the other guys that were there and stuff like that.
22:53I those guys I believe those guys got him.
22:55>> Yeah, do you think like do you think it's possible I I again, I I telling you off camera. I I really try to stay out of the military drama. Like I'm going to let them figure that out. Obviously this one's talked about in the public domain a lot. I don't have an opinion or whatever.
23:11Do you think it's possible that in particularly like Rob O'Neill and Matt Bissonnette because it's a dark night vision mission, fast, chaotic, in an enclosed house, going after one target, a bunch of them enclosing on it on the same time, do you think they may both actually really believe their memory of what it was?
23:30>> I think they both think they're telling the truth.
23:31>> Yeah.
23:32>> And and it's a shame.
23:34It's a shame that they would be in in odds against it. It's even more a shame that the veteran community attacks either one of those guys. And here's why, because both those guys are incredible patriots.
23:47They and they not only raised their hand to serve, but they served at not only as Navy SEALs, but at the premier tier one >> Mhm.
23:56>> unit in the world, you know, SEAL Team Six.
23:58And they volunteered for that mission knowing that they that mission was a high chance they weren't coming back.
24:03>> Right.
24:04>> And they both went through that door.
24:06Uh and on the other side of doors was Osama bin Laden. What happened on the other side of that door? Personally, I don't really care. I think a lot of I think a lot of people put bullets in but Osama bin Laden if I have to guess because they were just like, "Oh, you know, I want a piece of this too." I don't know I wasn't there.
24:21>> end of Inglourious Basterds.
24:23>> I don't know I wasn't there. But I I think there's probably it's semantics and perspectives and and different recollections and you know, people don't look at any any crime, right? You you interview 10 people that witnessed a crime and you get 10 different stories.
24:34>> That's right.
24:35>> I I don't know. I wasn't there. And and and everybody else commenting on it wasn't there either.
24:40Bissonnette was there and and and and O'Neill was there. They were there. And let let them let them sort that out.
24:46>> And everybody went through the door like you said. Like they all did it. The whole team did it.
24:51>> are heroes, man. They're American heroes.
24:53>> what they pulled off. Like the fact that and the the the Black Hawk goes down and they got they got to lose it on they were so prepared that they didn't skip a beat with that and they didn't lose any guys. It's one of the most impressive >> Yeah.
25:08>> missions ever in anything.
25:11>> Well, there's so many people that you could attack right now over over legitimate things that the fact that veterans are attacking but I get it too.
25:17Like I I mean I got a text just now before we came out. I get I get it too.
25:19Like people people are always like you know, picking apart your service and your and what you did and what you didn't do and the semantics behind it and and just by the way, you put any human being under a microscope and guess what? You're going to find something, right? So it's it's like why do you like >> [snorts] >> you know, do you start do you start looking at someone because of something or do you look at start looking at someone because you're envious of a position they're in?
25:44>> Mhm.
25:44>> You know, and usually it's the opposite.
25:45They start looking at someone because they're like, that guy's doing that guy's, you know, getting this attention or doing this thing that I want to be doing. So now I'm going to look into him and I'm going to find a way to pick his pick his life apart.
25:55That's just not great. And it's not great to do. It's not good for the veteran community.
25:59Uh you know, it's it's just it's just not a good thing.
26:02>> I agree.
26:03>> Yeah, I I like I said, I deal with it.
26:04And I I think it's part of the territory of of choosing to go on a public platform, unfortunately.
26:10But yeah, so I try not to engage in in bashing of the of the veterans but but I'm not I'm not just saying that to I I don't care. Like personally, I don't care if Rob O'Neill or Chris Kyle is not right.
26:21Right.
26:21>> I don't I They're both both of them to me are amazing humans who did an amazing thing for our country.
26:26>> Yeah, what did it what I I like to let it lie at that.
26:28>> Yeah, what what did I appreciate that perspective. What did it when we did get him?
26:33You know, you were out at that point >> Yeah, from the start.
26:37>> from the from the military and from serving with with the guys as a contractor in Afghanistan but that was a 10-year odyssey effectively and then we get him.
26:48You know, >> Yeah.
26:49>> how'd you feel? Like did it feel like something shifted in the world or >> I did me and several of my friends spent years of our lives investing [snorts] you know, blood, sweat, tears, time away from family, risking a lot to for that operation.
27:06So it felt like a little personal win for me. I'm not I'm not claiming that like anything that I didn't do.
27:11It just but it but for me it felt like a personal I invested a lot so it felt like a personal win. And then I had a friend who called me and he said some things that we did and he's like [clears throat] hey just so you know like some of this stuff that we did like it tied to that operation like it it was like >> [snorts] >> it felt so good to be part of the winning team, you know, in that like to be personally part of the winning team on that and cuz like I said we worked so hard for so long. I was so invested in that. And uh it was really redemptive cuz I left I left I left kind of on my heels man. I
27:39left with my head between my legs.
27:40>> And what do you mean?
27:41>> When when I left the the program that I was in it was a it wasn't you know, it wasn't on the best of terms for me personally.
27:47>> What happened?
27:48>> Well, I mean we had a compromising operation and we had some you know, several of our teammates that were that were killed and we had a you know, um I'm >> Wait, so you had a leak?
27:58>> Yeah, we had one of our Afghans flipped over to the Taliban.
28:01Compromised us and so we had we we lost several team team members and then we our operation is compromised but even though our operation is compromised we choose to keep operating. Now I'm working on a cross-border operation and I I get I get rolled up by a foreign intelligence agency and I can't say again I can't say which one. I can't say what the conversation was about but I get rolled up by a foreign intelligence agency.
28:22>> Taken prisoner?
28:23>> I wouldn't say taken prisoner but pulled off pulled from my house to a to a remote site to be heavily interrogated.
28:29>> Tied up?
28:30>> Yeah, so uh not able to leave like they you know, they they forced me into a car uh forced me into a car, drove me out armed guys drove me out to a remote location and on the side of a mountain to interrogate me.
28:44>> Now, what's going through your head in that car right now?
28:46>> I thought I was going to be killed. I mean, like no doubt in my mind like they're they're going to I thought you know, when the guns come out to kill me I'm going to try to fight but more likely I'm just >> How long was that drive?
28:55>> was terrified. Uh probably about 30-minute drive. Of no silence. They wouldn't respond to me, nothing.
29:01>> Were you speaking their language at all or >> No, they all spoke English. They all spoke English. These are >> Yeah.
29:06>> As you highly educated guys. These aren't These aren't thugs.
29:09>> What led to them rolling you up?
29:12>> Uh some information that they collected from our house. When we knew that they had collected some collected some information from my house tied to the compromise on the on the Afghan side of the border.
29:25>> I think I know what government this is.
29:26Go ahead.
29:27>> Yeah. Yeah, and so it was you know, it was a it was a scary moment, man. It was it was very it was terri- you know, terrifying. I'd like to be a tough guy and say like, oh that was it was a terrifying.
29:36And and then you know, I said enough to for them to probably not believe me but enough for them to say, "Okay, we'll give him more more rope to hang himself."
29:45And uh let me let me go drove me back.
29:47>> you go. I thought they were driving me back to my house but they actually drove me on the way back to my house and then let me off at a curb, kicked me out of the curb.
29:52>> How long were you there in where they took you?
29:55>> Uh oh, a couple hours. We were at it a couple hours. That's what you mean the whole like in the country.
29:59>> they questioned you.
30:00>> Questioned me. In the country overall for about a year.
30:02>> Were you tied down when you were in question or you were in a room?
30:05>> wasn't No, not in a room. Outside the road. On a on the side of a mountain.
30:08>> On the side of a mountain. They're just >> They drove back >> to [ __ ] kick you over the edge.
30:12>> Well, not like a mountain like not like not like a >> Not like Game of Thrones where they're going to kick you off the sky door.
30:19>> the train station on a on Yellowstone.
30:21You seen Yellowstone?
30:22It was like that. It was It was like a hill, you know, like >> Yeah. I got you.
30:25>> out of out of road down a bit pushed me off it. Yeah, I was more thinking I was going to get shot and then yeah, but [clears throat] because it was out in you know, kind of the middle of nowhere. Just a >> What kind of without going into specifics that are classified, what kinds of things I guess from a high level were they asking you or what did they >> asking about one of the guys that I worked with. There was a guy I worked with that they I think they were more suspicious of than me.
30:46>> For what reason?
30:48>> I I really can't say what reason it was.
30:50There was a reason, but there was a there was a very legitimate reason, and I knew it, which helped me.
30:54Which helped me, cuz then I was thinking, "Oh wow, you guys are more interested in him than me."
30:58So, that was kind of a glimmer of hope that maybe they're not completely onto me.
31:03And so, I felt like I could talk my way out of it. At least let them give me enough and man, I probably should have left at that time, but I didn't. I chose to stay and keep operating.
31:13Cuz I just believed in I believed in what we were doing so much.
31:16And uh and but I I started having panic attacks and uh and and it got to the point to where like I realized I was making decisions that was putting not only me in danger, but put put put some other people in danger as well.
31:27>> How do you stay when when you get rolled up like that, you get forced into a car by a foreign, I guess like intelligence service, whoever they were?
31:36You know it's a problem. You know they're taking you somewhere. They're not responding to you. You are thinking, as you said, that like, "Oh my god, wherever I'm going, they're going to kill me."
31:43>> Yeah.
31:44>> How do you keep your wits about you to even be able to like process a question that you get asked and give a coherent answer when you're dealing with that, you know, guillotine [snorts] over your head?
31:55>> Yeah.
31:56Well, I'm I'm I mean I'm thinking, you know, you you Well, one, you go to SERE school and then high risk SERE, which is like, yeah. And I went to this corporate cover training and so, I I mean, unfortunately, you know, the military does a good job of training you in situations like that you could be in, whether you're a you know, a bulk fuel guy or special operations guy, you get trained for every scenario you're going to be in.
32:18So, thankfully, our training's really good and and one of the things I thought about right away is, "Okay, how I'm supposed to be here doing this, right? I'm supposed to be here as a in this I'm in this corporate cover capacity.
32:29So, I'm supposed to be doing this. How would this person I'm supposed to be react?"
32:34Right? How how am I supposed to react?
32:37You know, uh >> Playing a role.
32:39>> So, yeah. So, you in those moments you got to react the way And they they had already been incident with the same guy that had that came and asked to get me.
32:46They'd already been another incident with the same guy where another uh another co-worker of his exposed who they were.
32:55And I had already had to behave like like the person I was pretending to be.
33:01>> Mhm.
33:01>> And and uh And so, I'd already I'd already been going back and forth with these guys.
33:05They were kind of showing who they were and they were starting to discover who I was. And so, there was already kind of this back and forth dialogue of me having to behave a certain way. So, I was already in that mindset, okay, how would I how am I supposed to react? I'm supposed to be scared.
33:18>> I conveniently am scared right now.
33:21>> [laughter] >> Right? But how am I supposed to react?
33:22Like I'm supposed to I'm actually supposed to throw a fit. Like I came here to do business. I'm spending money in this country. I'm just trying to do a good thing. And now I'm getting, you know, I'm getting treated like this.
33:35Like I'm scared. I want to go home.
33:37That's how That's how you react, right?
33:38So, I'm doing exactly what I was trying to do.
33:41And uh you know, thankfully again they thankfully they they I don't think they believed me, but I think it was enough for them to say, "Okay, we're going to let him go and watch him more and get and get and get more and get and get let him hang himself more."
33:55>> Was there did they when they were done questioning you, did they say, "All right, let's get in the car?" Like >> Yeah.
34:02>> free to go? Or did they not say anything?
34:05>> They motion I I remember vividly nothing was said.
34:08Noth- nothing was said. It was kind of like this moment of like silence and I could tell they were trying to decide what to do.
34:13I'm an I've been a police officer. I've been done interrogations before. Like I could tell they were trying to decide what to do.
34:18And then they just opened the door and motioned for me to get in the car.
34:21>> Woah.
34:21>> And I didn't know, am I going to a jail now?
34:24I didn't know where I was going. And they And they wouldn't talk again. And then we got towards town. I was tell we're going towards my house and they stopped and let me out on the curb.
34:33And drove off.
34:34>> You weren't worried they were going to shoot you?
34:36>> When they when they let me out >> let you out?
34:38>> No, they let me out in a busy area. It was a pretty busy area.
34:40Yeah, I knew I was good at that point, but I was just like but they didn't say anything. So now I'm like I'm like are the police like are the police coming? Like are the uniform police coming now? Like I don't I don't know.
34:50And so I had to go back. I went back to I went to Dubai, met some of my team, told them. They basically they basically I was given a choice to continue working or not.
34:59I don't know why I chose to, but I did.
35:01>> Was this like '05, '06 or >> It's '07.
35:04>> Okay, so you didn't work for that much longer after that. Okay.
35:08>> no. Wait, >> you got back to Dubai, were you were now you're leaving another country the whole way that you're getting onto I assume a plane to get to Dubai, are you worried you're about to get rolled up?
35:18>> Yeah, so I that for that reason for whatever reason that time I'm like it didn't really hit me. I got flew to Dubai right away. I'm like man, they probably I I think they they could have rolled me up like right there. But then I came back and I started working and there was some things that happened that like led me to believe that it was closing in on me again. Probably a lot of it paranoia.
35:35>> into that country?
35:36>> in.
35:37And then I and then I had this I made some decisions that I made some decisions from a lack of real clear thinking that I think didn't only put myself in danger putting other people in danger.
35:49And that was when I recognized like man, I'm I'm not in a good shape right now.
35:53And and that's when I left and when I left that time I was I bought I I called and I left execute like a protocol that says I'm in trouble, which means as me saying like hey, I'm coming to Dubai.
36:04I'm going to go to Dubai to see a doctor. I'm not feeling well.
36:07>> Mhm.
36:08>> And that's kind of like a >> code word for >> And and so I bought a round trip ticket, only packed a a backpack overnight. I left a lot of money in my safe.
36:19When I say a lot of money like and you know, seven figures seven figure money is in my safe and in the in the in the bank. And I got on a plane and and flew and for that for that moment like literally I was going through customs like oh my gosh they're going to not let me out of here. There's more police here than normal. Like I'm looking at everything like I I was panicking. My flight was delayed. I'm like they're stopping the flight to you know get people here to get me. I was like I was a mess. I was a mess.
36:44>> Woah. Now the seven the seven the seven figures that you left behind was that like a part of your earnings from what you had gotten >> It was just operational money.
36:54>> So wasn't your >> It wasn't my money. No no no. It's someone else's money. Yeah.
36:59>> [laughter] >> Yeah not money but but all of it was from what I understand all of it was recovered by command.
37:05>> So you knew at that point like I'm having some hyper inflated panic attacks oh yeah I can't do my job effectively.
37:13>> Yeah I was in bad shape.
37:14>> That's a hard thing you know you've been going at it for so long hard and dude been through multiple careers by the way at that point where you had to do some hard [ __ ] It's a hard thing to at the heat of the battle in the middle of it be able to remove yourself and be like hey I'm not right.
37:30>> Right.
37:31>> But it's an important thing to be able to do.
37:33>> Mhm. Yeah.
37:34Yeah.
37:35Yeah you know.
37:38Get to Dubai and you know spend a few days there. They didn't they probably had a you know I don't know this I don't know how much I assume they had a you know probably a counter intel team watching me to make sure no one was following me and and I had to I had to go to a little local pharmacy to get some valium. I never took valium before. Local pharmacy to get some valium to calm myself down.
37:57And and then I finally get home I get put before a did a polygraph supposed interview stuff and then a post post trip interview stuff. They were making sure you know some things which they should have. You know at the time I was very offended.
38:13>> Yeah [laughter] I know.
38:13>> But but it was some things they probably should have did and and then because I was diagnosed with PTSD by a psychologist I was read out of my programming, and I lost I didn't lose my clearance, but lost access to the program I was in, and no longer could do that job.
38:28And which was Now I'm dealing with the ability to panic attacks, feeling like I'm going to die, extreme anxiety, and and also I'm completely embarrassed and ashamed for having failed at what I thought to be was most support job on the planet, you know. Were you still married at this time? Yeah. Yeah. So you go home to America. Now you've been on and off going to Afghanistan back and forth, but that's a constant and this is something I talk about with all you guys who have done this at like high level.
38:57You have a constant source of adrenaline, right? And it keeps you boom, moving. And then all of a sudden it's like you take that volume on the speaker you've been and you just go down to zero. And now you got to be a regular person again at home, like out of nowhere. And your mind's not right because of what you just went through.
39:21What's that? How did you deal with that?
39:23I tried to get a regular job. I just finished my MBA, and so I tried to get a regular job at a at a went in and just totally used my tradecraft to talk my way through an interview. I'd been in Afghanistan and doing construction work and building projects, and and talked my way into getting a job at at a high-rise construction company as a project manager.
39:43And so successfully used my skill set to earn a job, [laughter] and but but I couldn't do it. I couldn't I couldn't Literally I was going in the bathroom fighting off panic attacks.
39:53It lasted for about 2 weeks, and I'm like I don't know what I'm going to do.
39:55Like I I'm and and I've been doing jiu-jitsu my whole life, you know, judo, traditional jiu-jitsu, grappling.
40:02I was already professional MMA fighter on the side, and I was undefeated, so I was pretty good at it. So I went and got on the mats and I rolled.
40:09I was really worried about grappling cuz I thought, man, get my heart rate up.
40:12I'm going to get give myself a heart attack or something. But doctor's like totally fine. Like That's how >> you did That's how you dealt with it to let it loose?
40:21>> mats, man. And when I got on those mats, I felt like I found a cure because you you can't you can't think about Afghanistan or, you know, other stuff I'm doing while you're grappling. You got to be mentally present. You got to be That's one of the good things about that sport or any kind of engaged sport where you have to be you have to be mentally present. That's one of the things I love about skydiving. Like, you have to be mentally present skydiving. You can't think about something else, you're going to die.
40:40Like, you you have to be in the moment. And so, I I love things like that, but you jiu-jitsu is something you could do for not for a moment of skydiving. You could do like for hours, you know, like and just go and grapple. And so, >> And that healed you?
40:52>> Uh no, it didn't it didn't heal me, but it gave me a place to to recover.
40:55>> So, how did you >> when I say when I say it didn't heal me, it was a great I I think it's a great thing. I think people have shirts like jiu-jitsu saves lives and stuff like that. I think it's a good thing, but I think there's a balance. I In my show, the Resiliency Show, we talk about like mind, body, social, spirit. You have to have all four of those. You got to be mentally healthy, you got to be physically healthy, you got to socially be around right people, you have to have a strong spiritual foundation. Like, all those. So, jiu-jitsu for me gave me the the mental, the physical, the social,
41:19but it was you know, I was still missing that spiritual piece. But But in that moment, like, I found a place to heal. I found a place to have community, and I trained as much as I could. And so, I won a world title in MMA. I won, you know, as a black belt, I've won American Nationals and bronze bronze in the pans and and I've won I was ranked number six in the world as a as a flyweight in MMA and number 23, I think it's a bantamweight.
41:44>> I had made it up there pretty good. 18 and 2 as a pro fighter, fought in all the big shows and stuff.
41:48>> [snorts] >> And but on the surface, it looked like I was healed. Thousand students in my jiu-jitsu open a school, I had like a thousand students.
41:54But about 3 years into that really false facade of success, something was still missing. I was still broken. Ended up you know, separating from my family, had an affair.
42:04[clears throat] Like, and just separated from my family and had a suicide attempt. And and you know, 2010 >> What led to that? What happened?
42:13>> I had this big fight on Showtime. I fought in a Strike Force. Strike Force was owned by the UFC at the time.
42:19And uh, you know, so the whole time I separated I was training for this fight and then the fight was over and I mean, remember the my hand being raised in the front of 10,000 people in the Toyota Center and I was like, man, like I just fought so hard for this win and like I just like gave up on everything, you know, that was important to me. I remember thinking like, of all these people here in this crowd cheering, not one of them was was my wife Kathy who had been in you know, been around before and I just went home like so depressed and I thought like, all these people I blame my whole life everything. Like the common denominator
42:46was me.
42:47And I thought maybe my family would be sad without me, but they'd be better off, you know, and I think that's the same hopeless thought that finds a home in the hearts of over 20-something veterans every day. Like, maybe my family, maybe my loved ones would be sad without me, but they'll be better off.
42:57And I don't think a lot of people that commit suicide take their life because they want to escape their pain. I think they we really believe that we're going to unburden the people around us and not realizing that that's one of the worst burdens you can put on people is you know, you take your pain and you transfer it to everyone that loves you when you do that.
43:13>> So, you had a full-blown attempt?
43:15>> Yeah, so yeah, so I sat I would sit in my closet my I had a Glock 22 pistol, a 40-caliber pistol and but I literally put my family pictures on the floor around me like that's almost like a goodbye.
43:24But every time I put that gun to my head I would have this vision of who's going to find me cuz someone's going to find you, right? So, someone's going to hear a gunshot in an apartment or you're going to get show up somewhere or morbidly someone's going to smell you like someone's going to find you.
43:36And so every time I do that I thought my son Hunter is the only one that has a key to my apartment. It was enough to pump the brakes in that moment, but I was still there.
43:43And it was one morning I was with that pistol in my hand and I heard a knock at my door and I wasn't going to answer it.
43:49But uh, when I heard Kathy's voice announce herself I panicked. When I say I panicked like she would never came to my apartment, especially in my closet, but I hid the gun under a blanket like it was a shame what I was doing and it sounds stupid, but I ran to the door like so mad that she interrupted me killing myself. Like I was so like like I was just livid and I'm like, what are you doing here? Like I didn't ask you to come here. You can't just show up here.
44:08And yeah, I'm yelling at her trying to get her to leave. And in the middle of the argument, she asked me a question that, you know, radically changed my life, probably saved my life in a moment. She's like, "How could you do everything that you've done?" We met when we were 17 and 18.
44:20She saw me become a Recon Marine and go to schools and training and cut weight for fights and all this stuff she saw me do that requires so much discipline.
44:27She's like, "How could you do all of that? And when it comes to your family, you'll quit."
44:31And uh >> Oh, so she knew.
44:33>> Yeah, so she she knew I was Well, she knew I was quitting on on our family, you know, and everything, myself. And and so she just really challenged me.
44:40And uh and uh and in that moment, I made a decision to get back in the fight. And I knew I couldn't do it alone. I knew I couldn't do it with the people I surrounded myself by. I talked about that earlier. I can't remember on which show, but you have to have, you know, what what regardless you have in life, I think all people especially men have to have accountability, right? You You know, I had surrounded myself by everybody that told me what I wanted to hear and not what I needed to hear. I needed to hear some hard things. And I knew this circle of people that were around me were like people that were
45:05fans. I mean, I had a lot of friends, but I had people that were like, you know, [snorts] when you're when you're successful as an athlete, a lot of people cheer you on. And >> Yes.
45:12>> And no no fault to those people cuz I probably systematically I pushed accountability out of my life. But I asked my wife, "Is there someone in this church you're going to?" Cuz she was going to this church. I didn't care about God or her church or anything. I was just like, "Is someone in that this church you're going to? Is there some man that can hold me accountable to pulling things back together?"
45:26>> Were you guys separated at this time, too?
45:28>> separated, yeah.
45:29>> So, did you still love her?
45:33>> At that time, I didn't even love myself.
45:35And uh so I felt like I didn't love her, but I did.
45:38We were We're unfortunately we're we're we're you know, not together now. But um but I'll I'll always love and and care for her. She's We met when we were 17 and 18 years old, together for 30 years.
45:48So, she's an amazing woman.
45:50>> What made you you know, you mentioned like you were pretty broken, didn't feel a lot of meaning inside, you couldn't get rid of some of this stuff that you were dragging with you.
46:04Understandably so, from your previous career. And then in there, you know, you love your wife.
46:11Maybe you go through times where you don't, cuz you as you said, you don't love yourself. But what made you like have an affair?
46:18Or get to that point?
46:19>> I was I I didn't feel anything. I had no empathy at all.
46:23Like um I think something turned off in in Afghanistan.
46:28It's It's very weird. Like I remember when Josh Harrington was killed.
46:32Like we had been friends for we went through training together. He served in my wedding. We've been friends for 10 years. And when he was killed in 2004, like that was the first like hardest and first experience I had.
46:45That night I had to go out and operate.
46:46>> Mhm.
46:48>> So like back home, if you have friend in the family member or friend that dies, as bad as it is, there's a grieving period you have. When you're overseas and you're operating, you have to be able to continue to work.
46:59And so you something inside your brain like allows that to happen.
47:03>> That's right.
47:04>> So you could function and survive and and be there for everyone else. And so you turn something off. And I and I don't think our military does a good job of teaching guys how to turn it back on.
47:13And so or else you wouldn't be able to function in that environment.
47:16And I remember me and me and >> Maybe some of that money they give to the Taliban for their [ __ ] martyred families, they could use for that, right?
47:23>> why we do what we do at Mighty Oaks. You know, that's why our foundation exists because in the in the in the void of government programs that just don't do that.
47:30Well, I just didn't know how to feel.
47:32And so I didn't feel anything towards her. I didn't feel emotion towards her.
47:35I didn't feel love for her towards her.
47:37I didn't feel affection towards her. I didn't feel mad when or or I didn't even feel angry towards her at times. I didn't like her at times, but I but I'd make her cry, and I didn't even feel sad about it. I'm like, what's wrong with me? I don't I mustn't love her if she's crying. I don't even feel bad. And I just wanted to feel again. So I don't think I had an affair because I was pursuing sex.
47:57I had an affair because I just want I was looking to feel.
48:00And uh I think that's what led me to to making those bad decisions.
48:03>> And you felt bad about it afterwards, obviously.
48:05>> I didn't.
48:07>> But not not right away, but eventually.
48:09>> eventually, yeah, yeah. And cuz cuz when I got caught uh I didn't even have an emotional response to it. I'm like, "Okay, well, I guess we're getting a divorce."
48:17You know, like um so I was just like I had no empathy. And I And that's not me, by the way. I'm like a very like about highly compassionate person. I'm a very kind person.
48:25>> Yeah.
48:25>> Like none of those character traits are me.
48:29But like 3 years I was in that state.
48:31>> Yeah, no, it's interesting to hear you say that because then it's something like your wife obviously still cared enough about you to tell you the thing that was the most important thing that was true that no one wanted to tell you.
48:40>> Mhm.
48:41>> And it starts the journey of you getting back on the path. And I understand obviously she's pissed at you >> Yeah.
48:47>> for doing what you did. No problem with that whatsoever. But like now you you're like you'll always love her and everything like that, but because of that time period where you're going through this and make some poor decisions, for sure, you know, you lose your you lose your marriage and and it's like it's a strange thing for me to think about cuz I haven't been married, but like how you can do everything that's mostly right or, you know, have everything right and then go through a time where something happens and it just kills it and then even if you want to undead it >> Mhm.
49:21>> on the other side and even if both of you want to do it, you [snorts] don't cuz there's still this thing.
49:25>> Yeah, yeah, cuz we tried for years uh and and and we started some great we started Mighty Oaks Foundation together.
49:30We started some great things together.
49:31We held I mean, but and she tried for years and I I'll always give her credit for trying and she she once she saved my life. She rescued me. She helped me build Mighty Oaks.
49:40And she really revealed a lot of things to me. She tried for years, but for her she just could never get past some of these things and you know.
49:46>> You understand that.
49:47>> I understand that. Yeah, I mean, it Look, there's you know, sin has consequences and just cuz you confess those sins and make them right doesn't mean the consequences aren't still there. I was I was I think I told you earlier I'm good friends with Phil was good friends with Phil Robertson and Robertson family.
50:02>> Duck Dynasty.
50:03>> Duck Dynasty, yeah. Sat down across the table just like this actually with a table just like this and shared my story with him. He had heard my story many times, but he's not a very quiet guy. He always likes to interact, but he was um Jase after was telling Jase's son, a good friend of mine, was saying, "Jason Jay was saying, 'Phil's never that quiet.' He just listened to me the whole time cuz his movie was coming out and he was having to face his past in the movie The Blind. And he took And later that day he pulled me aside and told me he goes, "I appreciate what you did with your life." But he's
50:29like he's like, "You can always leave sin, but sin will never the consequences of sin will never leave you." I didn't really understand that at the time. I think he was talking about himself like and me the consequences of sin and I didn't get that until I went through this with my wife at the end at the end of our relationship was that the consequences are still there. You can change your behaviors. You can you can have redemption. You can have forgiveness even. The consequences are still there. And that that's a important lesson for me and for everyone that I that I have a ability to speak to
50:59especially working with the Mighty Oaks like you can make things right, but the consequences are sometimes still there and then and I'm having to um I'm having to deal with that now.
51:08And uh but you know >> Are you happy now? Do you feel like your life's in a good place?
51:13>> I feel like my life's in a good place. I mean I'm hurt. I mean I had an amazing family that that I lost you through this.
51:20Uh I have you know, I have a you know, was married for 30 years and and my my have four kids. I have three adult kids, 29, 28, 25 and I and I have a 3-year-old that uh my wife and I chose to I hate to use the word adopt, but but she was a family member that we came in at birth and >> Wait, Cammie and you?
51:41>> Yeah.
51:42>> So, when you were still married?
51:43>> Yeah, yeah, it was our kind of last um Um, thing we did together.
51:46And we brought Summer in and she's 3 years old now and she's Uh, I was naive enough to think we're blessing her and it was the other way around. She's been a biggest blessing to me and and I have six grandkids.
51:57>> She was a niece.
51:57>> She was a niece. So, you had to Okay.
51:59>> Adopted a niece at birth and uh Yeah, and I have six grandkids.
52:02>> That's awesome.
52:03>> So, yeah. So, it's it man, yeah, it's it sucks to to lose that, you know. And and we did so many great things together, you know. One of the things that I quickly passed over was you know, in the redemption process was this guy Steve Toth who's running against Crenshaw, by the way.
52:14>> Mhm.
52:15>> And uh he he was I sat down across from Steve and he was an elder on call at the church when I asked Kathy to help help me and he showed up, met me at a Starbucks coffee shop and I would have this perfect plan of how I was going to fix my life and I wanted him to show it to Kathy and I was like super impressed with it. It was like a military operational order and and I slid over to him and he would read it and he slid it back over to me and told me and he tapped on the paper and he said um if if this plan does have anything to do with God, I'm not going to let you waste my time and not let you waste mine.
52:39>> Had you ever been a religious guy at all?
52:41>> I grew up So, I I grew up uh till like fourth grade Catholic and my dad left. Ended up my my mom was never went to church or anything like that. And then when my brother died, this family took me to church to their church. It was like uh some kind of I think it was Assembly of God church and uh and I went to this altar call and I was like really moved by it and felt like God was just talking to me.
53:03And then and so that kind of really inspired me, but I never had any follow-up and then when Kathy and I got married, we were like, "Hey, we should probably go to a church together and raise our kids that way." And I always went to church with Kathy and I would have said I was a Christian, but I never lived it lived it out and really understood it. And when I went to Afghanistan, I became very like either mad at like cuz of the things I was exposed to, I was either like agnostic or mad at God. I mean, I didn't know which one.
53:29>> But you believe >> But yeah, if I was agnostic, yeah. But one of those you believe something's there, right?
53:33>> Yeah.
53:34>> And even if you hate God, you still believe.
53:35>> That's right.
53:36>> by the way, the demons and the devil believe God more more than us more than we do.
53:40And uh So, but but I still believe something was there.
53:44But when Steve told me that, right, this plan doesn't lead me to relationship with God, I'm not going to help you, I'm not going to help waste your time, I'm not going to waste mine. What I had recognized in my life at that point is that everything I had tried before didn't work. I had been through medication, counseling, had professional success in in rebounding, financial success, was making good money.
54:03Uh all those things Some of those things are good and some of those things are bad, but none of those things changed my situation. So it was kind of one of those moments like, what do I have to lose?
54:11And and uh so I surrendered my life to Christ through a leadership by him, but I'm I'm a very I'm a skeptic.
54:17>> You're a skeptic.
54:18>> I'm a skeptic of everything.
54:19>> What do you mean?
54:20>> I don't just trust things on face value.
54:22>> To this day? So you're a skeptic of what you surrendered yourself to?
54:24>> I'm I'm a skeptic of of everything that I'm If I'm exposed to something I'm going to make a life decision, I want to know why I made the decision. I want to That's me. So for me like, I made this decision, there's a lot of value in it, but I really want to understand why like I made this decision. I want to understand what it is. So I just really start went into study of apologetics, and that investigation of that really solidified my faith beyond a decision to a true belief and a true faith.
54:50Uh and by really just studying the gospel and the history of the of the gospel and really understanding it and I So my faith became very strong.
54:58>> You saw the evidence of it.
54:59>> Saw the evidence of it and I wanted I wanted to I wanted to for myself. I'm not going to look If I'm going to commit my life to this, it's pretty big decision, by the way, to commit your life to faith because it's not just what you live out. It's not like 9:00 to 5:00, it's like 24/7, everything. Every decision you make should be If you're a person of faith, every decision you make should be through the the filter of that of that lens and that purview and that belief. And so that's a big decision. So you should To me, if anybody's going to And I challenge people with that because I know where you could land, right? If
55:25you pursue truth, you always going to land at Jesus cuz Jesus is truth. And so I just challenge people like, man, if you if you're skeptic, then dig in.
55:32That's that's what I did. But what I discovered at the end of that first year of Steve like not just leading me to decision but discipling me and mentoring me for a year.
55:40It was pretty profound for me.
55:42Is it all these things that happened to me as bad as those things were, my childhood, Afghanistan, I didn't end up in that situation with a pistol to my head because of those things that happened to me. I ended up there because of choices that I made in response to those things. And I had never lost ability to make good make good choices. I was just making bad ones cuz I didn't have a blueprint ever in my life. No one had ever give me a blueprint to make good choices. And people say life doesn't come with a handbook. I disagree now. I think it does. We just don't read it. It's the Bible. And and what I discovered from
56:10that was like every problem I had had in had in my life and every problem I will have in my life the Bible had an answer to. And so what I learned to do was pause in my problems and pause in my hardships and my emotional responses and seek the response that I should live out. And I became very intentional and deliberate about that as a process in my life.
56:28And and through that I found restoration. I found hope. And ultimately I found purpose. And that purpose for me like really ended up in a deep burden to pay it forward to others and that's why I like today that's why I started Mighty Oaks Foundation and I have the podcast and do all the things I do cuz I just really feel God burdened my heart to pay those lessons that I learned through my life that resilient kind of lesson forward.
56:48And man, like I don't know if you follow like I know you're just kind of getting introduced to Mighty Oaks Foundation but we've we've we've served over half a million warriors through our resilient programs.
56:57We have had 7,000 core graduates. We do like $8 million a year in free programming.
57:01And then all the humanitarian efforts in the last 10 years we've raised like I've raised like $100 million in like both veterans care and humanitarian efforts.
57:08Uh all cuz I you know, Kathy's challenge like you know, you willing to quit or you got to get back up get off your butt and get in the fight again, you know. And uh you know, and so I'm always >> Take a low moment and turn it into something beautiful like that.
57:21>> Yeah, yeah, it's a I think we all could do that though, right? It's all all of us could do that. We could choose to you know, stay there and literally stay there and die or get up and move forward.
57:30>> Damn right.
57:30>> And uh and then you know, not just for ourselves but for the world around us.
57:34That's what we're called to do.
57:35And so yeah, so my faith has been So you talk about those that resiliency like those pillars of mind, body, social, spirit like at the one with the jiu-jitsu did the first three in redemption, but I was still missing that one piece that faith and then my you know, my my surrendering to relationship with Jesus and then understanding what it was and how to live that out. That brought it all together to me and that's what that's where I'm kind of at right now and and uh man, I I I couldn't I I couldn't be more blessed in my life like like I said it's it's you know, unfortunate what's happened with my family, but I couldn't
58:02be more blessed in my life to get to do the work I do and impact the the people that I get to the work with the people I work with.
58:08It's it's it's a pretty incredible life.
58:11>> All right, that's awesome, man. And Chad, [clears throat] I I I I have a lot more questions.
58:15>> Yeah.
58:15>> We could talk about this forever, but I already kept you 15 minutes past what I was supposed to. I know you got an event to go to in New York, so I do >> book in >> I I do want to get you out of here, but this was awesome, man. I really appreciate you having me on on your show earlier. I really enjoyed that and your story is great and I think I think you picked the right word. You're a very resilient guy, man.
58:34>> it's the resilient show and and you know, about yeah, tonight we're going on my book Shadow Silent Horizons is uh book one of a three-book series with Tyndale publishing. It's a fiction fiction book. My My books I talked about earlier was Saving Aziz, the Afghan Evacs, Mission Without Borders Ukraine. Those are phenomenal, but if you like fiction Silent Horizons book one and book two's coming out as a pre-sale right now and we have a book three next year.
58:59>> Wow.
58:59>> but you're a machine. Book I love I actually love writing. Book one though is it got uh nominated for the Audio Awards and is is a finalist and Ray Porter reads it. He reads uh Terminus as well.
59:09And so tonight we're going to go and and hopefully we'll we'll we'll get we're here in here in New York get get get the Audio Award for it.
59:15>> I hope you do, man.
59:16>> [laughter] >> I hope you do, but I appreciate you fitting me in as well with all this and doing it.
59:20>> I want to come back when we do So we're going to we talked about it earlier, but Shadow Figures is the show I I coming out. I can't say what network, but I'm >> Right, I do want to talk >> to you about that.
59:28>> I'd love to come and come back and talk about that. You You're going to You're going to talk I'm going to send you some clips of it. You will totally dig it, man.
59:34>> I bet I will. I heard the concept, so I know I'm going to like it. But, Chad, thank you so much, man. This was a pleasure. Everyone else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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