0:10Ray Nayler in his new novel, Palaces of the Crow, writes about four teenagers struggling to survive in the killing fields in Poland and Lithuania during the Second World War. Over a 12-year period, the Soviet and Nazi regimes killed 14 million people in an area that historian Timothy Snyder aptly names the Bloodlands. Of the 14 million civilians and prisoners of war were killed between 1933 and 1945, more than half died from starvation. The teenagers find refuge in the forest with a flock of highly intelligent crows. They hide from German patrols, bands of Russian deserters, Polish partisans, and fascist Lithuanian
0:54police, along with bandits and outcasts.
0:57Nayler uses this violent landscape to ask fundamental questions about existence. Is our natural state a war against all, or is it, as Pyotr Kropotkin writes, grounded in mutual aid? As Nayler does in his novel, Mountain in the Sea, he interprets our reality through the world of animals, specifically crows, who survive not as individuals but in flocks. The animal world, he argues, is capable of receiving and emitting emotions of kindness and reciprocity. He sets the humanity of the crows and the four teenagers who protect each other against the barbarity of those who wage war.
1:37The biological niche is a concept we most often get wrong, he writes. Yes, we are built to survive in the environmental niche to which we are fixed, but the human niche is not niche is not the world. It is human society.
1:52Just as the crows niche is the flock and the bees niche is the hive. Social animals are built to survive only among one another. Joining me to discuss his new novel, Palaces of the Crow, is Ray Nayler. He lived and worked abroad for two decades in Russia, Central Asia, the Caucasus, and the Balkans. He most recently served as international advisor to the office of National Marine Sanctuaries at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
2:24I have to ask you why you set the novel uh at the time period and in the place that you did.
2:33>> You know, um I think the reason I chose to set a book during World War II is that I see World War in some ways as the birthplace of our present moment and the world that we live in. I think a lot of the world that we exist in today was structured technologically and structured in the way that people relate to one another and even in the uh you know, uh boundaries of national states by World War II. And I think our mentality toward other human beings in many ways was also restructured during World War II. This was a time in which 50 million people on uh better best estimates lost their lives in a period of, you know, about 6 years.
3:16Uh that number is vague because a lot of those people's stories are just completely unknown, but I think that this cauldron of war and also the technological results of that war, the atomic bomb, radar, the rockets, right? All of these things completely reshaped the world. And one of the other things that was reshaped, of course, was uh the United States, which had been less affected by World War II rising as this dominant global power uh after the war. But that the particularity of that is not why I set it there. I really set it there because I think if we failed to understand what happened in World War
3:53II, if we lose an understanding of what happened especially of what happened in the bloodlands and in Poland and Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, the Soviet Union, Central and Eastern Europe during World War II.
4:07Then we lose some kind of sense of history that becomes irretrievable.
4:12Um, we can't move away from that time period before understanding it.
4:21>> Well, it was also the clash of two the two totalitarian powers, the Stalinist uh, Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Uh, and I'm just wondering whether the rise of those two political systems and that clash was also an element that you wanted use as at least as a kind of backdrop.
4:44>> Yeah, I think one thing that's sort of poorly understood about World War II in here in the West is that it really was a battle not largely between the West and Germany, right? Or the West and two different authoritarian states in Germany and Japan.
5:02But nine out of 10 German casualties were inflicted on the Eastern Front and really this was a battle between two different styles of authoritarian states uh, between which the people uh, were trapped and had to make terrible choices as to who to ally themselves with. There was no good power to ally oneself with over evil. There was only bad and worse in many ways for many people. And also they couldn't see it with the clarity of history, right? They could only see in the moment what seemed to provide them with a way to survive or what seemed to provide them with some kind of uh, tool that they could use against
5:45oppression, right? In that moment. So, yes, I I think it's it's interesting to me to examine World War II from those perspectives, from the perspective of the people caught between not between not between the West and some kind of totalitarian East, here Germany, right? But really between these two massive and crushing forces.
6:12And how do people survive that?
6:14>> And the four characters, the teenagers that you write about are all victims of either one of those systems or the other. One is a Jew, one is a Gypsy.
6:26Uh one is uh been exiled to uh Siberia to the gulags.
6:36Um So, and the other and the other character is just horribly maimed by war or doesn't speak even.
6:47Um so, talk about what you wanted to do with those four characters.
6:52>> Well, in a way this book for me is a kind of response to uh a certain way of seeing human nature, right? Uh I I was very surprised when I found out that William Golding's Lord of the Flies was based on a real event.
7:11That there really was a group of shipwrecked boys who survived for a long time on an island alone. They were uh they they all went to a boarding school, right? And uh they were for and their teachers were not with them, so they were forced to form a society on this on this island and cooperate and find some way through. The difference between the book and reality is that in reality nobody died. Uh the boys divided the chores up between themselves, set up housekeeping, and lived very peacefully on that island together in a state of mutual aid and cooperation, right? But that's not the story that
7:46gets told in Lord of the Flies, of course. The story that gets told in Lord of the Flies is is one of the strong against the weak, right? And uh and this sort of perverted miniature version of the society that we uh that William Golding perceived us as living in uh in his, you know, day. Um Golding responds to that criticism in an interesting way in in among at the contemporary moment when he wrote the Lord of the Flies. He says, "Well, this is not a story about those boys. This is a story about British schoolboys and how they would form a society on on an island." And I I take that point, but at
8:29the same time, I think there's so many books that are written about people destroying one another in times of adversity. And one of the things that's forgotten about World War II, for example, large, you know, in that it is that probably most of the people involved in World War II tried to protect both themselves and other people around them. And many, many people in World War II actually sacrificed their lives to protect other people, knowingly gave their lives up in order to shield other people from oppression. And that's a story that we don't talk about, I think, enough about the ways in which people came together
9:07to protect their neighbors, to protect family members, to protect friends, to protect strangers.
9:14Uh there are many stories even in Lithuania, uh which uh had less of this than Poland, of citizens taking children from the ghetto in order to keep them from being killed and and fostering them for years, hiding their identities until long after the war war was over. So, picking these characters who were all oppressed in one way or another, and then putting them together and s- and allowing their mutual abilities, their or their individual abilities to mutually support one another, uh is is sort of the core of the book, watching how they fill each other in, right? They they uh there are certain abilities that
10:03each one has, and they bring those abilities to bear in protecting the others. And in the end, um you know, and this is not really a a spoiler, but in the end they'll all make grand sacrifices for each other during their time in in the forest.
10:20>> I know from your wonderful book uh about the octopus that um you probably didn't make up anything about these crows. It's quite a remarkable story. I mean, you but set against this horror, and it is a horror, uh that these four teenagers are attempting to hide from and survive through are is is our relationship to the animal to animals in this case. In this particular case, crows. And um one of the things I found interesting is that they they they kind of live in this underground shelter that had been previously occupied by a veteran of World War I hermit who had been very, very kind to the flocks of crows
11:09in the forest, and it raises that question of whether that there was some kind of reciprocity.
11:16But I want you to talk about the the the use of crows that are a constant theme in in the book, and at the end, I won't spoil it, but I mean, there you know, becomes a decision by one of them, I mean, to risk their life on behalf of the to save the crows that are trying to save her, but >> I think corvids are fascinating and crows and you know, in particular but other corvids like ravens and and rooks. One of the things that's really interesting about them for me is that within the space that humans create this very damaged space urban spaces and suburban spaces and all of the spaces that we have in which
11:58we've sort of invaded nature to some extent. Many animals have been destroyed by by that movement into nature by human beings.
12:10Crows on the other hand are one of the groups of animals whose numbers have increased along with humans and who seem very suited to taking advantage of our damaged liminal spaces.
12:25Um, I think we have a strong association with crows and negativity, right? We we see their call as a sign sometimes of death, right? They're associated with disease and war and all of these other things, but I think precisely because when humankind has gone into battle historically crows have been there to take advantage of the food that we leave behind for them on the battlefield, right? And so crows are creative and intelligent creatures themselves of course and these crows in this book are sort of an extension just of the tool use and intelligence that that crows have and crows are also an animal that has a
13:10direct weaving relationship with human beings.
13:15They've been with us as a symbol probably throughout our entire history.
13:20We've I think learned a lot from them and they learn from us. They watch us do things and imitate us. They exchange gifts with us. They remember our faces.
13:33They've clearly evolved alongside us for a long time.
13:37I was a I was on the beach with my daughter and we were tide pooling and we were sort of standing there looking at some things and I saw the crows come down off of the sea cliffs and start gleaning from the tide pools and I asked a ranger what the crows were were doing there because you don't usually see crows right at the seashore. They're usually driven away by gulls. And the ranger said, "Well, there was a student group here.
14:04They were children. It was a kindergarten group and the crows know that when the children come through the tide pools, they're not very careful about where they put their feet and they kill a lot of small animals and snails and things. And so the crows watch from the forest above the beach and they wait for children to come through the tide pools and then they go and they pick up what the what the children have left behind."
14:31And I thought that's that's so it's such a a good summation of what much of the crow-human relationship has been historically. We make a mess and the crows take advantage.
14:46But there's also this this in the book, you know, mutual care that emerges between the humans and the crows and this is something that we see with human-animal relationships and you see you see it with crows. People who treat injured birds intelligent, you know, especially the more intelligent species like corvids will often find that they've gained a lot a life-long friend, right? And that that bird will introduce them to other birds from their flock and soon they have a relationship with a whole group of birds. And so that thread of care that proceeds from the man who takes care of some crows and is kind to them
15:29and then uh the children who come along and need help and the crows give it to them and then later in the book uh what the adults will do for the crows. All of that is for me a way of showing how care can move through species, through generations, and build some kind of a system of care.
15:53Right? Grow and grow if it's given that space to grow.
15:58>> I once asked uh the radical Catholic priest Daniel Berrigan who baptized my youngest daughter how he defined faith and he said it was the belief that the good draws to it the good.
16:14And that seems, frankly, along with I don't want to impose biblical interpretations on your writing, but that along with resurrection seems to be at the core of what you've written.
16:28>> I think that uh that's I mean I think that's a great way of looking at um faith in the world, right? The idea that the good or that right action or right um activity in the world, caring about the other, brings care and builds care.
16:53I think I I've always felt, and I finally only recently, you know, have been able to annunciate this that um everything that is successful and worth doing has to begin with care as its first step. First you care and then you do a thing. And these are the kinds of of actions in the world that seem to happen most benefit for everyone. It's those actions that are initiated with a sense of care.
17:25Uh my grandmother used to say, you know, um when we would do things badly as kids, well, the first step, my grandmother was from Appalachia, so she spoke very bluntly. She would say the first step is giving a And then everything comes out of that.
17:40So, if you don't give a you're never going to get it right.
17:44All right?
17:45Um but I think what she what she fundamentally meant was that the first step is care.
17:50The first step is caring about the result.
17:52Um I find that when I'm writing, for example, that something that I always keep very clear in my mind is care for the reader.
18:01Um what do I want them to receive from me?
18:05What do I want them to uh get from the experience of reading, and how can I bring that to them?
18:14And if you don't care about that, it I don't know why it's worth writing at all. It's it's uh you know, if if it's done without care, if it's done just for some kind of profit or something like that, I'm not sure why anything is worth doing. So, yeah, I think I think things that are engaged in with care build care in the world. Things that are engaged in without care have a tendency to do the opposite. Right? They build adverse material um sort of obsessive um profit uh profit-seeking behaviors that decrease the amount of care that's possible in the world. Right? And so, there's a constant battle, I think,
19:03between those two things because while it's true that we're perfectly capable of compassion, care, and mutual aid, it's also true that we're perfectly capable of capable of destruction, of abstracting other people to the point where we feel fine taking advantage of them, etc. Right? So, both of those things are true. I just tend to feel and call me optimistic, um but I don't think that's the case. I think it's realistic. I think that the mutual aid, compassion, and care, and the amount of it in the world outweighs the other stuff in the end.
19:40Um although maybe not in this in any particular moment.
19:47>> Well, Kropotkin was a naturalist. I mean, he evolved his theory of mutual care by by observing very, very closely the natural world, and in particular uh species that created herds or flocks in order to survive.
20:09>> This is absolutely true, and I think that's there's something that's worth touching on when we talk about corvids and birds in general, and that is that um we human beings are very strange apes.
20:22And one of the strangest things about us is actually and you know, in in our violent present moment, it sounds strange to say, but it's true, that we are the most non-violent of all of the apes.
20:36We are able to restrain our violence and cooperate in large groups in a way that none of the other great apes can.
20:47But, it is something that birds can do.
20:50Birds millions of years before we figured out how to do it, learned to live quite peacefully in very, very large cooperative flocks.
21:03And that's something that was of great advantage to them.
21:07It allowed them to basically evolve into a species, as you were mentioning at the beginning of of the interview, a species that has a niche that is the flock.
21:19And then the the niche of the flock is the forest or the world, right? So, the flock is the organism that survives in the world, and the crow, or the bird, the flamingo, whatever bird it is, is an organism that only has to survive in the flock. Its existence is cushioned by its cultural relationship to other birds.
21:42And they did this long before human beings did. But we're very much like them in that sense. Um There's a great book, The Parrot in the Mirror, and I don't remember the author's name right off the top of my head, but you know, what he says is, um if you put um 300 chimpanzees on a 747, and you flew them across the North American continent, when you took them out on the other side, almost no one would have all their fingers and eyes.
22:14Right? They simply can't be in that kind of proximity to one another for that long.
22:19If you did the same with a flock of parrots, they would come out on the other side perfectly fine.
22:24They're perfectly capable of being in these kinds of groups. And so, that's another reason why I I chose the crow is because it really is a symbol of cooperation and and group living and non-violence, right? Um And I think what Kropotkin says, you know, he was a naturalist, and specifically, he was a naturalist that worked a lot in Siberia.
22:49And uh and in Siberia, you have this summer of great abundance, in which the land just suddenly becomes incredibly fertile and rich with resources.
23:04And I think what Kropotkin really learned from animals is that so long as they have resources that they need to survive, they will cooperate and work in mutual aid with one another.
23:19The only time that Kropotkin says Darwin's theory really makes sense is when resources become scarce. Then competition sets in.
23:34But not even always then.
23:36Still, there can be cooperation in these animal groups, even in adversity, even within resource scarcity. But he does make the point, and I think this is why he also seeks so much in his life to make the alleviation of poverty a material task, right?
23:56He talks about bread constantly and its importance, bread and will, right?
24:02Because without bread, there can be no will, right? There can't be any change. No one is capable of cooperating with their fellow person when they are starving, right? And when they're being crushed under the heel of adversity. And And so, I think he sees this in the Siberian, the massive Siberian herds of caribou and the massive Siberian flocks of migratory birds, and he realizes that if you can create a society of abundance, you can create a society of total mutual aid and cooperation as well.
24:44And the two things are closely tied to one another.
24:47But that mutual cooperation can even survive under some of the more adverse conditions.
24:54>> Well, he was a socialist. I mean, it's not not even abundance. It's just uh it's just a kind of equality. You know, everybody you take and you know, that's in your book with the crows, which I'm sure sure knowing you is probably true, but when they have broken wings or they can't fly anymore, the other crows will come and sustain them and feed them.
25:16>> Mhm.
25:18Um you know, they again, crows are crows are an interesting species. They can be cruel.
25:25Um they can seem cruel to us. They certainly have these famous moments of having trials of other crows and for whatever reason deciding to kill one of their number and it's completely unclear to us from the outside. No biologist can tell you why this happens or what has been done because we don't understand what their culture is and and how, you know, what the violation might have been.
25:51But um crows show concern for one another, for the injured, for the weak and they will protect um a wounded crow. They will protect a a fledgling fallen from the nest against predation, right? Um crows will band together to drive off predators even when those predators are not a direct threat to them.
26:16They will they will do it just for the sake of other crows, right? Uh of other members of of their group and they risk their lives to do this driving a um you know, a a hawk off is a dangerous activity and it puts one at risk and so to do that as a crow, not for the sake of oneself, but for the sake of the flock really shows the sort of mentality that exists, you know, and I use that that word um in that exact sense of, you know, mentation and a and a sort of vision of the world or a picture of the world. In the crows picture of the world, right, it is worth risking one's life for the other virtually at all times.
27:06Right?
27:07>> Well, in the book they risk their lives for the children.
27:10>> Yes.
27:11Yeah. And I I think that, you know, the implication is that in some in some way they've been able to extend this care out to to the children because they have formed a relationship with one of them, Neriah, who has, for, you know, many seasons been playing with them and interacting with them and building a kind of uh friendship uh with them. And so, on that foundation and on the foundation of um the relationship that they had with this man before, um there is they have a reason to extend that care to an interspecies level.
27:53>> You begin your chapters with this these supposed passages from what is it called, Diary of a Burned Village, if I remember correctly. Just before I ask you some specifics, what were you what were you doing with that? What were you trying to do with that?
28:07>> I wanted to show I wanted to show how we speak through writing with the dead.
28:18And there is this way in which, so long as we are not forgotten, we're able to kind of inscribe ourselves on other people. You know, there's a way too in which each one of us is just a collection of all of the voices that have come before us, right? And all of the inscriptions that have been made on us.
28:42And so, this was a way for me of showing how it was possible for that man, who's nameless, right, in the book, to somehow survive and pass on some of his ideas to the children who will take them up in their own ways.
29:02Um for me, kind of the way that writing works in general, I mean, it it amazes me every time, for example, that I pick up Thucydides and find that someone can speak to me clearly and as if they were completely modern from a time so long ago and a context so completely different from from my own.
29:28And that kind of clarity that writing allows, that ability for the dead to speak and be alive in the world with us, I think is also one of the major one of the one of the core elements of human existence.
29:44Um the one of the things that makes us extraordinary and the things that give us us great power is that intergenerational ability to engage in exchange with other minds in a very direct way through reading and writing. And now, of course, through other other means of of recording and things like that. Um we as a species are able to access the knowledge of people who disappeared from the face of the earth thousands of years ago. And if we can sustain interest in those exchanges, uh it has the ability, I think, to make us extremely wise about the decisions that we make in in the world. We can continue to learn
30:35and amass knowledge um in a way that that other species really cannot.
30:43Right? That that is something that that we have that other that other animals really do not have is is writing and inscription beyond just DNA and immediate physical culture and that kind of thing.
30:59>> What's interesting Hannah Arendt when she writes about what constitutes absolute evil or the capacity to commit evil says it's rootlessness. It's the loss of the connection any connection with the past at all.
31:14A kind of willful illiteracy.
31:18>> That sounds right to me.
31:20I would say that rootlessness the the inability to perceive oneself as connected to the rest of the world is what creates the psychotic map of the world that is evil, right?
31:39Um when one sees the world as a place from which to draw exploitatively for one's own benefit and thinks that that is a structure worth following then one becomes capable of doing great evil, right? I call it extractive individualism um in in some of my work. Uh it's this sense that that you as a self are capable of drawing from the world without consequence.
32:13Right? There is no limit to what you can take and there is no responsibility really to give back. And when you start structuring things that way you get things like the structure of corporations that limitlessly take from the environment in the name of profit and and many other structures that are poisonous to life on Earth. So yeah, I agree. Rootlessness you could you could call it disconnection, right? From the other, from the past, from the world. Any sort of misinterpretation of just how incredibly mutually dependent everything is will lead to wrong choices and evil.
32:57>> Well, you just described the pathology of Donald Trump and almost everyone around him.
33:02Um I want to read this passage and have you comment.
33:06Animals have smell, sight, hearing, all the senses we have, but also senses we do not. Ways of knowing we humans have no name for, senses we have lost or neglected, senses we never had. That's and you you honor that uh kind of those those senses, those customs, the whatever you want to call it, within the crow community, which are finally to us mysterious.
33:35>> Mhm.
33:38I think there's a way in which um I was having a recent conversation about this, too. Uh you know, there's this uh Thomas Nagel essay What is it like to be a bat? And uh it's a it's a famously misread essay in what in many ways, because many people have summarized this essay as saying uh you can't know what it's like to be an animal that finds its way through sonar, right? And it it in the dark, it's impossible to place one's mind within the sensory apparatus of the other and experience the world like that.
34:14But the interesting thing is it it that that essay has become one of these things that nobody reads, but everybody uh quotes from, right? And in fact, that essay, interestingly enough, says that there is a way to partially access what it's like to be a bat.
34:33Uh and that blinds people do this. That they actually use sound to locate objects in a space.
34:42And that even people who are sighted, if they pay close enough attention, can begin to have this sense from the way that sound waves move in a space of where things are, even in the dark.
34:57And therefore, we can start to approach not a perfect understanding of what it's like to be a bat, but some kind of a an idea, a starting place of finding mutual ground with what that might be like.
35:13I think that this is actually what all communication is.
35:20To one extent or another, right? Um I don't know what you are thinking right now.
35:28I haven't experienced what you've experienced in your life, and I can't quite understand what my words and my presence, my appearance, all of those things really mean to you.
35:40Because you're an individual, and as an individual, you can't be completely like me.
35:48But using my empathy and my sense of what is mutual between us, I can find common ground with you and be confident that we can have a conversation and find mutual understanding.
36:05And the same is true with, let's say, moving away from human relationships, animal relationships, or humans' relationships with animals.
36:15People say we don't understand what animals are saying, we can't speak their languages. But human beings who own dogs and cats know that you do speak a language with them.
36:27Communication happens. They understand you. You understand them. You exchange information about your condition. You exchange care and love and all of these things with them. You have a rich communication with them. And so while it might not be possible for you to know what it's like to be a dog, for example, you know when your dog is happy and you know when it's unhappy. You know when your dog feels loved and when it needs a bit more love from you. You know when it's hungry and when it's thirsty, um when it needs to go outside and and go to the bathroom. You know these things and and and so and people who work with horses
37:10intimately know the moods of horses, right? And people who work with any animal come to perceive what the animal perceives in the world very well, to interpret and translate it across that gap of perception.
37:28Um and I think to be fair to how hard it is to understand animals, we need to also remember how hard it is to understand one another and just how difficult human communication can be, you know.
37:41Uh one of the things that I um you know, I I I I got when The Mountain and the Sea came out, some people were disappointed with how difficult it really was to to communicate with the octopus, right? And I remember having this conversation with someone saying, "Well, I wanted I really wanted, you know, there to be this breakthrough moment at which we suddenly come to understand everything that they're saying." And I said, "Well, um I mean, you can't even understand what your own mother is saying half the time to you, right?
38:12Right?
38:14So, how are you going to understand what an octopus is trying to tell you? We can't even understand what we're, you know, saying to one another half the time. Uh Yeah, so there's this sort of coming back to that idea.
38:32We're always in the dark to some degree with other people, other animals, other beings in the world. But we can find something in common with them, and we can move to having some kind of a communication with them. It's perfectly uh possible, and we do it all the time. We just neglect to think about how much we do it.
38:54>> There's another passage you write.
38:59They had not been children, any of them.
39:02And they had not been adults. They had been the kind of They had been the kind of human survival makes, an ancient state of being in which they were bound to others for heat, food, shelter, and safety in ways the modern human had stopped recognizing.
39:18Bound together in the old ways with every moment one of total reliance on the other, bound in a way in which words like friend or family made no sense.
39:30Child, adult, friend, family, those were the modern words made for a modern world, for civilization, what really meant a world carved out of nature, like a little dollhouse, an artificial world with the natural painted and papered away, where each person lived in their own decorated box of a room, where distance from one another was possible, and true relationship fell away. That's uh I love that. Um but just explain, you know, a little bit your the thoughts behind it.
40:08>> I think we should remember that childhood and adulthood are modern inventions.
40:14Um these are these are modern concepts that we have pretty arbitrarily and differently in different societies applied to to human beings.
40:24Um there's really no such thing as a child in the same way as there's no such thing as an adult. We are simply people learning and growing at all stages of our lives and there's no moment when we're, let's say, in our late teens or early 20s when suddenly we know what we need to know to survive and and we can go out on our own.
40:49We continue to learn over our our lifetimes. And and children also have capacities that, you know, they don't have to exercise in the modern world, but they're perfectly capable of exercising. Children used to work, right? Uh on on farms and and do the kinds of labor that we would think only adults capable of and they luckily, you know, I think I I would say luckily, no longer have to do. We've We've carved out a space for childhood.
41:20But we've also carved up the human experience into these little boxes and we've we've gotten away from a primal sense, you might say, of togetherness that isn't cut up into arbitrary relationships like friend or family or uh or these kinds of things and labeled.
41:46And I think sort of when I was writing this in this moment, I was thinking about the difference between human beings many thousands of years ago huddled for warmth in a space of shelter together.
42:03And how they would have thought of all of those faces around them around the fire.
42:08And what those relationships were like.
42:10I don't think those relationships were anything like our modern relationships. They were relationships of total trust and total dependency with one another in which every day's survival relied on all of those faces around them in that circle around that hearth.
42:34And they must have, of course, had their disagreements and all of those things and certainly sometimes violent ones, but they knew that they had to be together.
42:44And they had to rely on each other. And in the forest these children are returned to that state of being having to be totally reliant upon one another and together with society and civilization stripped away from them. The The wallpapered room, you know, I think about um some of these lonely farms when I think about civilization. I think about a farmhouse.
43:14Let's say a Victorian farmhouse, right?
43:16With the wallpaper on in all the rooms and it's very pleasant and uh they've got glass in the windows and all these things and they've moved it all by like train out to the middle of nowhere and all around them is this vast and eternal prairie.
43:33Right? Completely wild still.
43:37And unexplored.
43:39And it feels to me like that still really is what civilization is. It's this kind of being inside a painted box and trying to ignore what's out there. And when you can't ignore what's out there, if you don't have the technology to cut it off from you and create this artificial space of civilization, you also can't ignore how reliant you are on everyone around you.
43:59All of those those people around the fire.
44:05>> There's one last passage I want you to comment on. And as with people, so with whole nations, the Soviet Union fought the Nazis off and then slammed the door shut across all of Eastern Europe to keep their enemies out. Then they got to work weeding out from their collective memory all the things that were hurtful and inconvenient to official history, tearing up by their roots the memories of the Shtetl. I may have mispronounced that of the of the Pale, of the millions of of war, of the nations who allied themselves with the Nazis, willingly choosing Hitler's sadistic, genocidal terror over Stalin's murderous
44:46repression and brutality. They rooted out the memories of the incompetent Soviet leadership that led millions to the slaughter, the generals brought back from the gulags, their hands shaking, their teeth rotted by famine to take over the command of shattered armies.
45:04After the war, their story, the story of what happened in the forest, would become just one of many stories that could never be told. And on the other side, in the west, she was sure they were doing it, too. Hollowing out the war, so they could fill it with a more convenient story, something with more convincing heroes and more inhumane villains. And the people who lived through a completely different kind of war, the real war, grew more and more silent. Let me just say as someone who spent a lot of time in war, you totally nailed it.
45:41>> There's an amazing essay by Lee Sandlin called Losing the War about World War II and about the silence of the people who who fought in World War II. There's an amazing moment in that essay when he realizes that as children they had gone running around the neighborhood playing army shooting at each other and falling down and pretending to get killed and all these things right outside the windows and under the noses of the men who had fought in the trenches of World War who would have been traumatized probably by seeing this some of them right? um and and Lee Sandlin has this this sense of us losing
46:33the real World War um for a long time.
46:45Uh it's a brilliant essay.
46:47But it also reminds me of like this personal experience that I had in Turkmenistan.
46:51Which is uh I was in a a city at the time called Turkmenbashy after the authoritarian president of Turkmenistan but originally it had been called Krasnovodsk.
47:01Uh red water uh and it was a city on the Caspian Sea.
47:06And I was in a taxi and admiring the stone train station of the city and he said ah um you like that? That was built by the Japanese.
47:19And so was this road.
47:21And so were all the apartment buildings in Krasnovodsk.
47:25And I said what do you mean? He said they were all built by Japanese prisoners of war.
47:31They lived here for decades after World War and they all died.
47:36And they're buried in the cemetery up on the hill.
47:39And I said oh well can you drive me to the cemetery? And he drove me there and there was a monument in the cemetery relatively new all in Japanese.
47:48And so when I went back to Ashgabat I went to the Japanese ambassador and I asked him about it and he said yes these there were many Japanese soldiers from Manchu from the battles in Manchuria who were swept up in the latter days of World War II by the Soviet Union and then worked to death as slave labor all over Central Asia.
48:10And recently there was a group of Japanese women who belonged to an NGO that goes around and collects the bodies of the dead from World War II, the Japanese war dead, burns them um in situ and brings their ashes back to Japan so that they can be buried on Japanese soil.
48:30And they are the ones that put the monument up.
48:33And I thought I have no idea what World War II was like.
48:39Like this doesn't fit into any of the narratives of which I have any knowledge. I had no idea and I was a well-educated person who had actually read many, many books about World War II, that there had even been a battle in Manchuria against the Soviet Union and that so many hundreds of thousands of people had been captured by the Soviet Union and that none of them had come home.
49:03That they had all been worked to death and some of them had didn't die until the 1960s, right? And I got this sense that this this colossus, this colossal event of World War II was slipping away in some way and that we were losing the substance of it and replacing it with something that was much more interpretable and convenient.
49:30Because I had never met anyone, you know, who who had even spoken about any of this. And then I started sort of talking to other people at different ways about World War II and I discovered that a lot of my friends who were from Siberia knew Germans after World War II who were who never went home, who just were prisoners of war and uh in Siberia for the rest of their lives.
49:54Rounded up at Stalingrad or, you know, other battles uh on the Eastern Front and and never saw home again. So, I really got this sense of the the gigantic and unknown largely lost story of of this war uh and and the the deep wounds that it had caused that no one was even willing to speak of anymore, you know.
50:25>> Well, we tell the stories that perpetuate the narrative or the myth >> Mhm.
50:30>> we want and we erase the others.
50:33>> Yeah. And there's really no no, I guess, advantage to anyone of remembering those Japanese soldiers, right? And so, um it took just a small NGO group, you know, to go and find them and uh and put up a memorial, but that memorial, I'm sure, by now is largely forgotten as well.
50:55You know, 20-some years later, I doubt that very many people in Krasnoturinsk would be able to tell you why that's there even, right? Um cuz their part of the World War II story doesn't have anything heroic or um sustaining of a national narrative about it at all, right? And so, and so, it'll be lost.
51:21>> Yeah. Well, my uncle fought in the South Pacific, came home and drank himself to death because >> Yeah.
51:27>> what they did to the Japanese were horrible, but what they did to the Japanese was just as horrible.
51:32>> Yeah, and I I remember >> All all of our movies are Saving Private Ryan and stuff.
51:36>> Yeah. Yeah, I remember Audie Murphy uh his quote where he said um you know, if you if you train a dog to fight uh and then you want to bring that dog home and, you know, give it to your children, you need to untrain it.
51:53Right?
51:53>> Yeah, of course.
51:54>> You need to take that the fight out of it, but they didn't do that for any of us.
51:58They just said, "Well, now you're done.
52:01Go home."
52:02>> Yeah.
52:05>> Well, that's what the story of the Odyssey is about.
52:07>> Yeah. Yeah.
52:08>> That's what Odysseus has to overcome.
52:11>> Yeah.
52:11>> That was great, Ray. It's a wonderful book.
52:14Um, and I want to thank uh Diego and Max who produced the show. You can find me at chrisedges.substack.com.
52:22>> Thank you, Chris.
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