0:01those people are thinking the exact same thing about us that we're the terrorists and we're over there in their country and they probably have it's like yeah they're right you know um but it's war and that's war is nasty and well lives get taken um and I at the end of the day my goal was to make sure my teammates made it home to their families and I made it home to my family and I if I have to kill you then I have to kill you. Um, and I it was funny. I had this uh like this liberal Oh, it was like the the Apple podcast guy I was telling you about.
0:35>> Yeah.
0:36>> You know, he he just he was asking me all sorts of questions and couldn't, you know, and I was like, "Dude, it's so funny to listen to you try and break down like philosophize war and this and that." I'm like, "It's so simple. It's it's a game." And I'm like, "And it's you're in the game. It's it's how I like we're over there and if you pick up a gun, you just entered the game and I don't care what age, gender, skin color, like there's only one way out of the game and that's death. And I was like, I'm playing the same game as you. So that's it. Um, and you know there's you really can't I think people think you
1:11can sit there and oh well let's reason and try and like before I shoot this person maybe I should go through his background and be like maybe he really didn't want to be ISIS and maybe he was forcing there's no time for >> Yeah. It's like no dude it's >> it's on and it's you or me.
1:29>> Yeah. Absolutely.
1:30>> That's a great answer.
1:31>> What what was your most memorable deployment?
1:34Uh probably my second one with the teams. Uh we went to Kandahore. Um >> the one you were talking about.
1:43>> Uh yeah, my second deployment. Yep. So we went and did disruption ops there. I mean that is my most memorable my first two platoon um are actually my most memorable just because the guys that I was with. I mean, I couldn't have been more blessed to be with just like the most professional like but savage warriors that um you know, my every from my peers to the older guys. Um it was just a awesome environment to be in.
2:10Everybody was on the same page. Um we were very tight. Um so that it just made those deployments that much more um I mean memorable, but um I g I got so much experience from that. Um and then you know Afghanistan at that time was hot and heavy. Um so we were we were putting in the work going out you know all the time.
2:32>> Um and yeah it just uh I had you know a lot of good experiences on that deployment. A lot of close calls. Um >> can you give an example?
2:41>> Uh well let's see you know one I put it in my in my book that I I fell down a well and almost died. Uh that was a >> You did?
2:51>> Yeah. So, we were uh >> and we'll have the link to your book in in description in the arena so everyone can go get that there. But go ahead.
2:58>> Yeah. So, that one uh we were uh patrolling into a target and um we had passed this well. So, there's, you know, Afghans there's wells everywhere, but this one was pretty massive. It was like uh 8 ft across, you know, big big hole.
3:12And so, we saw it and we threw a IR chem light by it so everybody could see it and walk around. Um, I was a breacher, so they wanted to blow down a wall. I ran up, pulled some the wall charges out of my bag, started setting them up, and then they decided not to do it. They're like, "Hey, we found another way um in, so let's not go explosive." So, I was like, "All right." Pulled the breaches down, put my ruck back on. Now, I'm in the back of the patrol um catching up.
3:39And what happened was one of the Afghanis that we were with had accidentally kicked the IRM light down the well. So, there was no loom that night. What loom is is when you're under night vision, right? Um there's the moon's not out, you really can't see uh too great. I mean, it's still dark. So, I could not I was walking and I remember thinking I'm like, "Dude, where is that hole?" And then I just fell down. It was like a 25 ft drop.
4:01>> Oh, man.
4:01>> But luckily, there was water at the bottom. Good 8 ft of water. Um >> Did you get hurt?
4:07>> Uh I, you know, bashed my head on the way down, you know, banged the knee.
4:11But, um >> really I was So, I was down there for probably 45 minutes.
4:16uh treading water. Um they couldn't get me out. Uh >> it was I think it was November so it was freezing out. Um so they eventually and actually an Afghan is the one who um one of the Afghan guys they found a tunnel that went down. It was a little opening above me. Um so he had burrowed himself down there and then I ended up uh I ended up getting out through that tunnel. Uh one one of my teammates came down and ended up pulling me out but I was hyped out. um completely just >> Oh yeah.
4:48>> But uh >> Nick actually his buddy Peton had the same story at a similar time. I think that was in Iraq though, right?
4:56>> They moved to Iraq at that point, but he fell down like a manhole like that at night. His was like 85 ft and there Thank God there was water at the bottom.
5:04Really >> and yeah, he was treading water. He like broke his leg and [ __ ] But yeah, >> it's crazy. He was saying, "Yeah, there's a lot of this stuff over there."
5:10>> I think a green beret had died a week prior falling down a well. There was no water. So, I mean, they're all over the place there. Um, but yeah, that was that was a memorable moment. We got it on video. So, like I was treading water, >> so I had a the rucks my rucks sack on. I was a medic, so I had all my medical gear. I was a breacher, so I had wall charges. I had a the 50 cal sniper rifle broken down.
5:32>> And then I had my M4 slung. And so when I was treading water, I was pretty much like going underneath, coming back up, you know. Um, >> and so I ended up dropping my M4. I was like, the thing was when I just let it go. Uh, so when they pulled me out, we actually >> It's like Rose letting Jack go.
5:48>> Yeah, >> they could have both made it, by the way.
5:51>> Oh, dude, that baby had so much room on that thing.
5:53>> Easily. That's [ __ ] up.
5:54>> Yeah, Rose is selfish.
5:58>> She's a Catholic. She's not a Christian.
6:02>> But yeah, we ended up going to hitting a We went to the Target. Anyways, um got in a little firefight. Um, and then >> you got in a firefight right after that.
6:12>> Yeah, they >> So you've been down in in in a in a well treading water.
6:16>> I was in Poly Pro, too. Like, so they had stripped me naked and put on Poly Pro on me to warm me up.
6:22>> And so I'm at this uh compound and yeah, we started, you know, taking incoming fire and >> I'm like, "What the fuck?" So I I grabbed my I had the 50 cal still, so I cleaned it and I like got it back up and, you know, joined the fun. But then my OIC was like, "Hey, you need to go back.
6:39>> We need to retrieve We need to retrieve that rifle. We can't leave it there."
6:42And >> yeah, they really changed that opinion in the next 11 years apparently.
6:46>> Yeah. Right.
6:47>> Yeah.
6:48>> So, I had to patrol back.
6:50>> Well, he was like, "Hey, we're going to send somebody to go get it." And I was like, "No, that's my rifle. I'm I'm the one who fell. I'm going to go back." So, I went back.
6:56>> You're going to jump into the well.
6:57>> So, yeah, that's on video. Uh my buddy was filming it. I jumped back in. I found it.
7:02>> Um >> do we have that video?
7:04>> Uh is that public? I don't know if that's public. I can Damn it.
7:06>> See if I can send it to you.
7:09>> The funny part of that though is um I lost my wedding ring. So I had as I'm going down digging down, I found my gun that came up and my wedding ring was gone, which I don't know why I was wearing it in the first place uh on a knot. But >> yeah, my wife, she doesn't let me live that town.
7:24>> Oh, that's terrible.
7:25>> Got the rifle but didn't get the >> I see what's more important.
7:29>> We'll get another one. That's hilarious.
7:31It's It's wild. We we've just ironically had several guys in here who were in Afghanistan particularly during those years like ' 08 to like 2012.
7:42>> It was nasty.
7:42>> And oh my god, the [ __ ] that was going down.
7:45>> It was nasty. Like that deployment we would uh >> you I have like we were told we had to go to every ramp ceremony, right? Which is they're like, "Hey, you're going to pay respects and we were all on board with it." But what ended up happening is we're going to ramp ceremonies every night. So you were just watching these caskets get loaded on and then eventually I think it was like at some point man this is sort of like demoral like demoralizing. It's uh having an effect on everybody but that's just I mean that's how bad it was during that time. I think that was we were there during the deadliest one of the
8:17deadliest years. Um so >> yeah I mean and that's all those poor you know conventional army marines. I mean they were just getting worked and you know it was it was hard to watch. Um was that >> 10 2010 you said or >> n809 are you still seal team one at that time?
8:34>> Yes.
8:35>> Okay.
8:35>> Yeah.
8:36>> And because you ended up Seal Team 7, right?
8:38>> Yep. Yeah. That's uh after I be I became a Buzz instructor and then um went to Seal Team 7 after that.
8:44>> Yeah. What I I guess like along the early deployments like to become an instructor and things like that like you have to have serious leadership qualities and >> I would assume right?
8:55>> Not specifically. I think it's more um I mean obviously they want especially in first phase I think they want a person that um holds himself to the seal standard um is looks the you know looks the part u because you have to think about it >> that's the first thing a student sees when he comes to Buzz right is like holy [ __ ] these are the Navy Seals that are putting me through and so you don't want some like halfass dude that's like whatever you want a guy that's like hey I'm holding the standard you know, um, you better in order to get past first phase, you will meet these standards and I'm doing everything with
9:33you, right? Uh, >> were you more hyped up than you were with like Tommy G on the beach when you were disappointed in >> just a little bit.
9:41>> Which, by the way, shout out to our mutual friend.
9:43>> Yeah, Tommy, he's a man. That was an awesome documentary.
9:46>> He did fantastic job.
9:48>> What did Tommy say? What was his quote?
9:50Any good quotes when he was getting smoked?
9:52>> Oh. Oh, by Eddie. No, I I think he just thought like he'd be able to do it easily. like, you know, I'm a wrestler.
9:56I can get rid of No.
9:59>> Yeah. He found out in about 10 minutes.
10:00>> Yeah. I love you're like, you don't have enough sand on you. Let me spray that on you. Sprinkle it. I'm like, there's no way he was this lowkey during training.
10:08>> Actually, I mean, you don't there's no not a lot of yelling. Um, you don't have to yell at Buds.
10:14>> You don't feel like a big yeller.
10:15>> No, I'm What did they call me? Uh they made they made a I I got a a plaque and um a sweet tomahawk thing they made me but it was um oh dude it'll it'll come to me but yeah I I was more silent uh but the silent hammer so I'd come in and be like but the thing is is >> the silent >> I would do everything with them like >> if I could you know I'd be like hey I'm going to do the four mile time run with you guys I'm going to do the hill course with you. I did two mile ocean swims with them and that was more just to like lead like lead by example like dude this doesn't end >> once you make it through buds. This is a
10:50lifestyle like you have to perform all the time and >> you know then you have you do have some instructors that let themselves go and they're sort of sloppy and they don't want anything to you know like I'm not going to go PT them but I wasn't like I was pretty uh intense.
11:05>> Yeah, you were about that.
11:06>> Yeah, I was about Yeah. So, >> which I was, you know, I I have >> a lot of guys that I put through who will call me and be like, "Dude, thank you." Um, >> that's what they say in here.
11:16>> Yeah. And I that that means more to me than anything. I mean, that's that means more to me than any uh deployment I went on. You know, it's like I had a positive effect, you know, on these guys. So, >> what made you want to do that?
11:29>> Uh, I didn't uh I think it was um they were like, "Hey, you need to take a break." uh or like cuz so once you do a bunch of rotations they're like hey you can't just keep doing them um you have to >> they call it giving back to the team. So like you have to go somewhere to either train >> uh be at trade at where you put you know grade platoon as they come through you go to first there's a bunch of options to go to and they knew they're like you're you're going to first base like you're you know pretty in shape and you're you're all about it. So I went there kicking and kicking and screaming.
12:01Uh I didn't I wanted to do another platoon. and I just wanted to keep going, but the reality is and my and my wife was like, "Yes, >> time to settle down a little bit."
12:09>> Yeah. Like, I want, you know, it'd be cool you'd be home for a couple years.
12:12Um, little did she know though, and little did I know that that was probably one of the hardest I've worked. Um, >> really?
12:19>> Yeah. Uh, because at the time we were under manned um and they were also trying to produce more seals. um the directive came out from Obama that he wanted 500 more seals which is ridiculous. Uh but so they upped the class sizes and then they also up the classes. So it was uh seven classes a year. So it was we called it seven seven and seven. So you would do seven weeks of first phase, end on a Friday, start a new class on a Monday.
12:50>> Did they lighten the requirements?
12:52Meaning like if you had to score X on this kind of thing, well now it's X minus one because they're trying to take more. No. So, they were trying to um when we were there, they were always trying to like it seemed like find little ways to lower the standards or like cut corners. Um but here's the thing, >> not under Eddie Gallagher.
13:09>> Not well, not when you have team guys running the show, uh being instructors.
13:14They can sit there, hey, you can't do this and that. It's like, no, we're >> we're going to make sure they get full Benny, you know, while they're here and and do it the way that we've been doing it. Uh >> so, yeah. Uh, I mean the only thing I would say is they they up the class sizes. So when you and I I brought this up uh in another podcast. So like with the with I guess they're like, "Oh, how do you get these guys in the teams that don't really like belong there?" But and you always have your bottom 2% 1%, right?
13:45>> But usually it's like one or two guys might make it through that really don't belong and then they're they're sort of taking, you know, taken care of when they get to a team if they show their ass, right? But when you up the class sizes like that, you'll now have maybe three to five guys that don't belong.
14:01And then you go ahead and have seven classes a year. That's 35 guys that don't belong in the teams that are now spread amongst the teams. Then you do that for two, three years, and the teams aren't that big. So that does have an effect. Um, but they they really didn't like lower the standards uh from uh like on paper, >> right?
14:24>> You know, it's still the same. Um, and it was uh yeah, it was a I was glad. It was a a good experience. I'm glad at the end of the day I went there kicking and screaming, but then I'm glad I did it.
14:35It was probably um one of the most um beneficial times for for me uh as like just as becoming a more experienced leader, just experienced team guy um being an instructor, >> but this was the hardest you ever worked to that point.
14:52>> I mean, I would I would say that like being at home, uh yeah, I was never I was never home. Um, I would get up 4:00 a.m. I wouldn't get home till 6:00 7 at night and then you work hell weeks and that is you're pretty much not home. I always had the midnight to 8 in the morning shift. So, you're on a totally different schedule. Um, >> so yeah, it was uh it was a dick dragger, but it I had again awesome guys uh that I was working with. So, everybody sort of like we banded together and we're like we're going to, you know, gut this out and everybody's going to do their part. Were you were was Dan Corbett a trainer while you were
15:27a trainer too?
15:28>> No, Dan was uh he came maybe he I think he was at uh SQT um teaching assaults cuz he came back from Red Squadron um and then >> he was there for a little bit, >> right?
15:42>> Cuz that's why I ended up going to SQT assaults as well. I I screened for dev group. I went over to green team. I got dropped halfway through, came back.
15:50>> Wait, what's green team? It's the screening process to get into development group.
15:54>> Got it. Okay.
15:55>> Yeah. Um so I had screened and that's really when I when I went to team seven.
16:00So I had screened out of first phase, made it about halfway, got dropped. They were like, "Hey, told me they're like you you can come back. Um come back whenever next year."
16:09>> Why' they drop you?
16:11>> Bro, I'm not >> That's kind of shocking.
16:12>> It's It's uh I mean, believe me. Well, first off, I'm not anything special. I'm just >> That's what they all say. It's I'm I was lucky to be where I was uh among the men that I was with. Um but green team is a very uh subjective um and you know I just they were like hey um come back next year. So I left and uh they I screened again and they're like yep you can come back but you have to wait a year um because we can't just have you come back right away. and they're like, "Just stay in a training command." And I was like, "No." Uh, so I found Yeah. I found the next platoon that was going to Afghanistan, which was at Team 7, and I
16:55joined them and just >> went from there.
16:58>> What year is that now?
16:59>> That this had to be 2011.
17:04>> Okay. So, I there there was a very old podcast, I think from 2014, that Joe Rogan did. I I want to say it was the first one he did with that CIA guy, Mike Baker.
17:15>> Oh, yeah. I love that dude. Yeah, that guy's great. But it was crazy. I had never listened to it. And then maybe a couple years ago, I think it was like right after the Afghanistan stuff, I listened to it. And again, this is back in like 2014. This guy laid out playbyplay to a tea as if he had a crystal [ __ ] ball down to like the image almost like I think he might have even used the word you're going to have a [ __ ] helicopter like the one over Saigon. like down to the imagery of how Afghanistan would fall, which tells me that, you know, he's not the only guy that that could see that coming. You
17:48could see it coming, too. I would imagine when from 08 to 12 or 13 when you go back, >> it's it's even worse. Like, what were you guys thinking at that point? Like, what what the [ __ ] are we doing here?
18:00>> Oh, yeah. That was so that that uh we were doing the commando mission. So that's when we were taking uh uh we would take freaking 80 Afghan commandos and go hit a target and there would only be like four of us with them. So it' be like so everything was like sort of pushed to be Afghanled, right? It was like the Afghans are now fighting for themselves and but we're there going on ops advising them and and the reality part of it is these guys ain't doing [ __ ] I mean, there's some good ones, uh, you know, that were decent, but the reality is we were still taking it to the enemy. Um, >> I mean, that was, uh, that was a decent
18:41deployment, but, I definitely saw the differences when I went back there.
18:44Like, just to give you an example, um, >> we got there the first week we were there, we went and did an operation. Uh, we were going to an old, so we at this point, we had turned over all the v the bills to build the operation sites back to the Afghans. like these are yours now, you know, go do good things. So, our job was to go back and assess if they were actually doing good, you know, if like, hey, are they using these VSO sites? And as you can guess, they were all [ __ ] holes. They had stolen every, you know, taken everything out, sold everything. I mean, I'm talking millions of dollars just wasted. Uh,
19:18>> and during our first one, we were assessing this old VSO site and the Taliban and actually, you know, taking it back over. and I watched it was like at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning the B1 was above us and we were talking to him and one of the uh Taliban in the village shot a RPG up at the AC-130 and I was like what the like this idiot but >> that's hostile intent dude see you. So, I ended up waiting uh I saw him go back into the building.
19:50I waited till morning. Uh was watching.
19:53He came out. He had a PKM. He started making his way. Um and the B1 was talking me onto him like, "Yep, there he is." So, I ended up blasting. I shot him. Um and another dude came up to grab his gun to run. I shot him. I get back from that op and I am put under investigation right off the bat. They're like, "We're you're not here to like you're here to assess to make sure they're doing the right thing, but you aren't like and I told him I was like that he shot it's the B1 will tell you all day. He shot at them." Um, and I ended up being cleared. I mean, >> but it was just it was still Yeah. Just
20:30the fact that I was then pulled out for a week, >> you know, told I was like, you know, you're under investigation like this and this, we don't know. And I'm like, what what are we doing here? Mhm.
20:40>> Um, and those that those are some of the changes that I saw. Uh, also the fact that we were paying off all these warlords. I mean, dude, it was so corrupt and just, you know, we're paying these warlords to keep IEDs off the main roads, but then these warlords are also giving back to the Taliban. Like, it was just one big circle jerk. Uh, and >> you know, that's when I mean, I I knew before then though. It was like this is this is the process of like where we're going to the wrong way.
21:07>> Yeah. like the Sons of Iraq funds and all the [ __ ] there just open wide open to just corruption 101 even amongst our own soldiers you know I mean holy [ __ ] >> you know we had a few cases in the bureau where dud just went they went bad you know they tried I mean you got shitloads of cash sitting on top of a safe unsecured >> in like a in like a you know forward base right >> didn't you do invest you went over there to do investigations right >> and we actually had a kid that sent money back the first time he sent 20 grand back via you know, via the postal service. And then he waited like two weeks and he's
21:41like, "Fuck, nobody said anything. It's still sitting at my door." So then he just started sending as much as he could.
21:46>> Oh my god.
21:46>> And ultimately he got caught. He's a West Point kid and ultimately got caught. The sad part of that whole story is his battalion commander killed himself >> because he said it was my responsibility. Now we all know mental, you know, other mental issues obviously, but that's a like a sad thing. And the only way we got this kid to talk was because he's a um Asian-American family.
22:07And so we just served search warrants on the accounts that belong to his parents and his aunts and uncles.
22:13>> And once that happened, he gave us everything. But to the tune, like $2 and half million dollars he sent back.
22:17>> Damn.
22:18>> In seven months. I mean, that's a >> that's just one story.
22:22>> And nobody found it. Like nobody bothered to say what, hey, what's going on? So and so is, >> you know, he's always around the safe.
22:29You know what I mean? like, you know, there's being around the flag, but then there's being around the safe.
22:33>> He just bought a Bugatti, man. What's going on?
22:35>> Exactly. Yeah. He put like in the other thing like he, you know, his nieces and nephews had the best electronic equipment and their rooms were redone.
22:43I'm like, "Oh my god." He wanted to get caught.
22:45>> Also, I I just put this together. Didn't >> Didn't Johnny Mack wasn't that in Afghanistan, too?
22:52>> That was Yeah, your buddy. That was like 2011, the same time.
22:57>> 2010. May 18th, 2010. He was the guy, he was a colonel. He was killed like I think it was the at the time it was the highest ranking officer to be killed over there. He got hit okay hit by a suicide bomber uh coming out of basically was twoe mission. They they were in transition team the brigade battle group. They were coming over I think the 82nd was no no 100 was leaving 10th Mountain was coming in and he you know basically got off the aircraft got onto an armored bus 17 of them and he got hit within like 10 minutes. Now, the irony of this, the time, uh, Secretary of the Army was John McHugh. So, they
23:30thought, these idiots thought they were killing the Secretary of the Army and my buddy had the same name in '06.
23:35>> Oh, >> my childhood friend, man. Like, we grew up together. And then all of a sudden, I I get a phone call cuz his son was deployed at the same time. I get a phone call and it's his brother and he's like, "Hey, um, John's dead." And I'm like, "Oh, what are John and Connie going to do?" Cuz you know, Michael was over there. It was him. So, I was 46 years old, man. Just just hit like it was. And no one ever really got to it was just like, yeah, we kind of nobody really ever >> got to the like why why it happened or >> let it go, man. They just let it go.
24:04>> I feel like that's that's one memory I have too of one of my deployments like just working with the conventional army.
24:12>> We went uh it was FOB Wilson. Um they were just getting worked this and we got told like hey this these guys were like getting smoked every time they go outside their FOB. Um, so we were like, "Hey, yeah, we'll come over. We'll we'll go help assist and take care of the problem." And so they're like, "Yes." So we flew out there. Um, and I remember landing at that FOB and seeing these army kids, man. Like we got off the plane and it was my my steel platoon and they came walking up to us and these kids were crying like, "Are you here?"
24:42They're like, "Are you here to help us?"
24:44And we're like, "Yeah." They're like, "Please, like I just like all of them just lost friends within the past week."
24:49And it was like a normal thing. But then I would watch the leadership just send these kids out like with no no like contingencies, plans. It was like, "Nope, you're just going to go drive down that road." And >> I'm like, "Dude, who is like running the show here?" But at the end of the We stayed there for about 3 weeks and we we mopped up. Yeah. We we would go out every night and >> just tear the place up as best we could.
25:17But again, you're like making these little dents, but the overall strategy is not there. So, it's like what, you know what I mean? It's like great, you're doing your mission, but that's one key to the entire cog here. And it's like, >> yeah, you know, >> Eddie, what you talked about, I'm so interested in this. You talked about your first couple platoon, right? And what was the difference between that leadership and we talked we touched on a little bit, you know what I mean? Like being around, you know, actually taking the person by person, that's what you're doing it for versus like later on like
25:45stuff like that. Like you see a conventional army unit that obviously there can't be any leadership at all because these kids are just getting sent out and like hey kill them you know next tears. Yeah. I mean what what would you say if you could a couple of things or one thing that really stands out to you as you look back on it or during the time that made the difference leadership wise >> that my leaders did everything that we did.
26:07>> Uh yeah >> there you go man.
26:08>> They were out with us. So like my my platoon chief and then my OIC, they weren't sitting back and sending us out. Everybody was going out together.
26:19Um and that's as the war progressed on, I saw more and more like officers would sort of no I'm going to stay in the jock and watch from ISR and then you know I'll make the plans from here which is whatever you want to do that that's great but then you cannot armchair quarterback from the jock either. That's one big thing I saw with the army unit.
26:41>> Uh I have one distinct memory of patrolling out with them and there was only like me and two other SEALs in their patrol. We just sort of embedded in there and we kept stopping and I was like what the [ __ ] is going on? Like I mean stopping every five minutes and then I would watch the junior officer that was in the patrol walk up and down and be like you need to get some separation. Like and like and so I finally pulled him aside halfway through. I'm like, "What? What are you doing? What is going on?" He's like, "Oh, well, the OIC is back at the jock and he's watching, you know, they had those uh big uh cameras in the sky."
27:16>> Yeah.
27:16>> He's watching and like critiquing the way the patrol is on the way to Target.
27:22>> And I finally told him, I was like, "Shut that comms off." I'm like, "Stop talking to him." I'm like, "You're in charge, dude. You [ __ ] get us there."
27:30Yep. And then he was like, "Oh, all right." You know, but that's that's the kind of goofiness you're like, dude, how how is this even working like this?
27:38>> Yeah.
27:38>> You know what's ironic about this? There was So, I guess General Mcrist had the whole thing go down in like09 or 10 and then he was out, right?
27:46>> Yeah.
27:47>> So, I believe it was him, but I remember in my old career, my boss had a chance to go to like one of these private conferences where I'm pretty sure it was Mc Crystal talking. Yeah, Larry was there and he was blown away because the whole point of the talk was about like delegation and leadership and he was citing the example of right when they went into Afghanistan in 01 or O2 the military had been so like topheavy with like having to go all the way down the chain of command just to take a [ __ ] or you know things like that and they gave be again takes an attack for it to happen but they then compartmentalized
28:23it and and empowered different little sections to make their own decisions and it seems like they just went completely backwards on that within a 10-year period afterwards after having initially success.
28:34>> Yep. And that's what I mean that comes back to what we talked about you brought up in the beginning is >> cowttowing to the media. Yeah.
28:42>> Cowtowing to like oh well look what they're doing here. So then the leadership we need to protect the institution. So now we're going to then tighten it back up. Now none of you guys can make a decision unless I say so.
28:52>> That's right.
28:53>> Yeah. how now you I mean you said you could kind of see the the chips falling in the wrong direction in Afghanistan for a long time but when it finally did go down in a in a horrible ball of heat in 2021 what what was going through your head?
29:07>> Uh I mean I didn't think it would uh affect me as bad as it did. Like I came down I would watched obviously whatever the whole world watched which was these Afghans holding on to the plane you know falling off. Um, and I mean I I literally like I started tearing up, but I think it was just more like yeah, you're just filled with like what the [ __ ] Like what why is this happening like this? Like who made this plan? Uh, so yeah, I mean it was it was devastating to watch. Um, and then followed by Abby Gate where we lost those 13, you know, service members.
29:46Uh, I think the hardest thing about that all that, you know, obviously it was a disaster, but to watch the, like we talked about, the officers take no accountability, to literally call it a victory, >> um, to not acknowledge the 13 service members that were lost. That was more of a uh hard pill to swallow. Um, because it's like, dude, what kind of example are you setting? like you're you're setting the president right now. So basically nobody's accountable for anything. Um unless if you're part of the elitist whatever officer core that >> we we can do you know it's rules for thee but not for me. Um and then you you
30:28know you have young privates who are getting screwed over for losing a weapon and their whole career is ruined but then you have >> right >> you know these leaders planning an operation. It's a total failure. lives are lost and they're just like, "Yep, move on." Uh, >> yeah, >> that's where I really had and you know, and you've always known that in some capacity, but just to watch it in front of the country like happened in front of the country like that, it literally was like, dude, this is this is bad.
30:59>> See, I I can't fathom it in your position cuz you were there, you know?
31:03you you were you were there fighting it and everything, but like I can imagine how much worse it must feel because I feel something when I see that. One of my first me.
31:13>> Yeah. One of my first memories that's like a vivid like whoa, I remember every second of that day when I was really little was 911.
31:20>> You know, we knew people who died in those towers and whatever. And so this was my first like introduction to like oh the world's like a kind of [ __ ] up place sometimes and [ __ ] goes down and war is a real thing. And to see like over the span of a generation that semicircle form, you know, that then goes like full circle right to where it was, >> you know, it it it makes you feel a certain type of way. And and to your point, when you see guys like like Sean's friend Tyler Vargas Andrews, who survived that Abbey Gate bombing and, you know, now has missing two limbs, >> triple amput, I think, or two
31:54>> double double, I think. I think it's either way like >> inspirational guy to say the least. But like, you know, when you see his story like get ignored by so many people and they won't even talk about it and and cover it in the quote unquote mainstream media and stuff and, you know, doesn't get the recognition from the administration where, you know, the buck stops with them at how this happened, that that's infuriating.
32:16>> Yeah, >> it is. And it's I think that's the main element that, you know, is piss poor leadership, man. Um, it's they they don't deserve to be in those leadership positions. They did not earn it. uh you know, they didn't earn it by merit. They earned it by being yesmen. And when you get to the top like that from by being a yes man and just, you know, saying what you think everybody wants to hear and not actually doing the job and then you're in charge of making decisions like the Afghan withdrawal and it's a complete failure, it's like, yeah, well, this is what you get, you know? Um and absolutely.
32:51>> I just there needs to be >> um I don't know what like what the answer is. What my I brought up my solution where I I know it's super extreme, but I was like, dude, if Trump gets in office, it's like every '05 and above, you're gone.
33:06>> You are gone. I And I'm sure there's some good ones in there, but it's like an example needs to be made. Like we have we have gone down a path that is just tainted. And if we keep allowing this to it's never going to go away unless an example is made.
33:21>> Need a little reset.
33:22>> Yes. And then they need to go to these to West Point to Annapolis to all these institutions and look at the curriculum that they're putting out. What are they teaching these young officers in these schools like about leadership? And if it's the wrong thing, it needs to be addressed and it needs to be fixed. Um >> yeah, I agree with that, man. I think about, you know, I think about it a lot.
33:43Um and there's there's great things going on that are different than when I went through there, but there's also things that were missing. And it's simple. It's simple things like mandatory dinner, you know, or just like I know it sounds ridiculous, but that's where it starts. Yeah. Right. That's where you kind of start what you were talking about on the side of being close to your people, you know, being around your people, being around the flag, doing everything that they do and not just saying, "Well, I did it once when I was a junior. I did it once when I was a sophomore. I did it once when I was a
34:08lieutenant. I don't have to do it anymore because I'm a field grade officer now." Those things are missing and it's very clear that they're missing and you know, you could see the results.
34:17It's pretty the results are evident and everything is on here now. So, you know, everything cops, it doesn't matter if it's cops, first responders, guys like you, guys like me, you know, it's it's out there.
34:28>> Yeah.
34:28>> So, if you stay close to that flag and you lead from by example and you truly believe in what you're doing, because most most people I think still believe in protecting protecting the country, you know, but they have different ways of believing that.
34:41>> Yes.
34:42>> Some of them are beneficial, right?
34:44They're selfserving. That's the people we got to [ __ ] get rid of because that is not working. It's just not >> not and that really doesn't work in any environment. It's like Yeah. If if it's all about you, me me, it's like Yeah.
34:56You're >> then you're going to be a problem.
34:58>> Yep.
34:59>> Eventually. Yeah.
35:00>> All right. Well, I I got to run to the bathroom real quick, but when we come back, let's let's get to Mosul and and and what happened there and go through the whole case. Be right back.
35:10>> All right. We're back. So, obviously, we've been kind of building up to this all day. This is the core of what became your story.
35:16>> Yeah.
35:17>> But before we get to actually what happened that then caused this whole case, what was the whole situation where you even got called in to be the chief of this specific platoon for for team 7?
35:29How did how did that work?
35:30>> Uh yeah, so I was already at seven. Uh I did a couple rotations and so I was actually planning on going and screening again to uh try to go to dev group. That was like my goal. Um, and I got offered a platoon chief's. I had just picked up chief and the master chief's like, "Hey, I want you to stay at seven and I want you to take over this platoon." Um, so I had called my friends uh that were already a dev group. I was like, "Hey, this is the predicament I'm in. Um, what you know, what do you guys think?" And they're like, "Dude, take the platoon chief spot. Like, don't don't worry about coming over here." Uh, and so I was
36:08like, "All right." you know, and honestly, my family wasn't really keen on my wife's not really keen on moving to the East Coast. Uh I could already I already knew that. So, I was like, "All right, I'm going to take the platoon cheese spot." So, yeah. Um he I was in Charlie's platoon and so he's like, "Hey, I'm going to send you over to Alpha." Um Alpha that last rotation did not do very well.
36:30Um >> the one before you?
36:32>> Yes. The one the one before I took over.
36:35So what like you know like I talked about earlier when a platoon goes through workup they get graded um on everything and they just did not they didn't have any they didn't have very good high remarks. Uh I think their leadership in the platoon had problems.
36:49Um so he was like listen you're going to go take over that platoon. Um straighten them you know straighten it up. And I was like okay you know and I didn't know anybody in that platoon.
37:02Um I just yeah I just didn't know most of I knew one guy. Um and so I went over there. I ended up taking two individuals from my prior platoon with me. I was like you two are coming with me. Um took >> they let you do that like you can decide to do that?
37:18>> You can try. Uh it's >> every every platoon chief when he takes over like when it's his turn he tries to build the best platoon. Like he's like and you know who's who you know every >> team America if you will.
37:31>> Yeah. like reputations are everything in the team. So, you're like, "Okay, I know this guy's a piper. I want this guy. I want this guy." Uh, but it it that's really unfair to do. Um, you need to spread the wealth and experience. So, I was, you know, lucky enough to grab uh two guys from my platoon, my prior platoon, brought them over there. Um, and yeah, we I checked into that. uh not checked in. I was already at 7, but went over to Alpha and from the get-go, I was like, "Hey, uh we're clean slate. Um I don't care what happened uh last go. I don't I'm I'm not no judgment. Uh but we are going to train and we are going to
38:08be the best platoon at this team. That is my goal. Um and we the reason you want to do that is because then you get to pick >> where you get to go in deployment." And I was like, I want to go obviously to combat and to the best spot. So, and everybody was on board. Uh they were like, "Oh yeah, yeah." They were like, "Yep."
38:24>> So we uh you know, started off the platoon. Um so when you come back from a deployment, you go right into uh a phase called professional development. And that is where uh the guys get sent off to schools. Um so it doesn't, you know, to go get their qualifications. So sniper, breacher, J-Tech, whatever. You know, if you if you're missing calls in that platoon, like, hey, we only have uh two snipers, but we want four. I'm sending two guys to sniper school. If we need a JTAC, I'm sending that's the time to do it. It's during professional development phase.
38:55>> So during that phase, usually the whole platoon is not together because everyone's, you know, at different schools, but I just chose I was like, hey, the guys that are back, we are going to train every day. So we would go uh do all the basics, patrolling, you know, pre-post assault procedures, uh you know, shooting, CQC, and uh I think for some of and I when I say older guys, they weren't they were you know, third platooners, uh they were like not with, you know, they're like why are we doing this? Um and to be fair, we were the only platoon really out there doing it. Uh, I think there was this mindset of,
39:35>> oh, we'll just wait till we get to work up to do all that stuff. Well, workup is where you're getting graded, right? So, it's like if you're not putting in the work beforehand, >> you should be shining during workup. You should show up and they should be like, "Holy [ __ ] this platoon is put together, right?" Um, >> which is what my goal was. So, I I think there was a and it wasn't really like vocalized too much. Um, I could just tell by some of the body posture, like some of the faces, you know, when we're out there patrolling on the beach again.
40:02And, you know, it is corny like we didn't we wouldn't even have weapons. It was just like, hey, we're going to work on just formations and how to, you know, get into different formations and everybody knows where they're at. Um, but either way, I mean, we we did all that and then um went into workup and workup went fantastic. Uh we got high remarks u from every block that we went through.
40:26>> Are you still I mean you mentioned the body language and stuff but do you still feel like your relationship with with the guys is fine? Like there's nothing >> everything seemed to be going fine. Um I definitely think there was uh Dylan Delay who was one of the guys. He from the get-go did not like me but he was a very uh timid meek type of individual.
40:48Um I just don't my personality and his just didn't jive. Um >> wouldn't have guessed that.
40:53>> Yeah. Um which was fine, you know. I like I didn't really think too highly like too much of him, but at the same time I wasn't like holding a personal grudge. I was like this dude's in my platoon, whatever. Like we'll keep going. And >> um but yeah, everything during workup was good to go. Uh really no incidents.
41:12Um we had we did just a great job. Uh and then um we got uh our pick of going to Missoul. Um we were told that we were tasked with like hey this is where you guys are going to go on deployment.
41:27>> Uh so then we did sit um which is where I talked about earlier. We go do our individual like uh or as a platoon which is where I actually um found where I live now. We went down there to train for two weeks. Uh >> Oh, you did that in Florida?
41:42>> Yeah. Um wow. So usually like there's these >> So your wife made it to the east coast.
41:46>> Yeah.
41:48Eventually. Yeah. Down south though.
41:51Yeah. Not Virginia Beach. Yeah.
41:53>> Um >> I take a passport there.
41:56>> Yeah. So we we went there uh did our two weeks there and then um even then during that two weeks there was definitely some like gripes happening but it was more focused on my OIC. Uh they were like complaining about him. Um, which me and him were pretty tight. Um, when it comes to like a platoon chief and OYC relationship, it was good.
42:19>> Does that mean officer in charge?
42:20>> Yes, officer in charge. Um, and usually from what I've seen, like those relationships aren't that great, right?
42:28>> Why is that?
42:28>> Uh, it just depends on personality. So, like you could have an officer come in.
42:32So, usually the platoon chief is uh the most experienced one, right? Um so you know just take me for example I was at that point in 18 years um was on my ninth deployment my platoon chief that was his second >> u so there's a the level of experience is different but he is overall in charge on paper like >> he's the one running the show so you can have a good OIC will come in and be like hey you're you have the experience I'm here to back you looking up and out I'm making sure I'm going to get us work but also protect us. But when it comes to tactics and like how we're going to plan operations, that's usually on the
43:15platoon chief, right? Because he has the experience.
43:19A lot of the times, not a lot, sometimes you'll have an officer come in and be like, "Nope, I'm I'm doing everything, right?
43:24>> I'm making you have to check with me before you make decisions." And that's where the relationship can sour. Um, and there's, you know, personality and everything involved in that. Um, >> but yours wasn't like that. No, we we were rocking and rolling. He came in with that attitude. He's like, "Dude, you know, um you're in charge of the tactics and this and that. Um and then I'm looking up and out, but I will I'm here to support you." And then the same way I was like, "I'm going to support you." So, it wasn't Yeah. During sit, they started griping about the OIC. Um but it wasn't like anything too crazy.
43:58It was just I just something I noticed, you know.
44:01>> Is there anything now? I mean, hindsight's like, you know, more than 2020, but is there anything you would have changed up from what you did to, you know, basically flip this team's performance around, like the leadership tactics you use during that time period?
44:13>> No.
44:14>> No. Uh, I don't not during workup or during sit during deployment. Yes. U there's a couple things on deployment that, >> you know, I would have changed uh a little bit. I mean, and that's the thing like leadership is not I think there's some people that, you know, get out of the military and they they sell leadership as this like this is the way it is and this is how you will become an effective leader. Leadership you you are going to mess up. Um I think a a big thing of being a good leader is being humble enough and being um vulnerable enough to be like, hey, and I I said that to my platoon a couple times when
44:49we went into uh Marops, maritime operations and diving. I was like, "Dude, this is not my strong suit. I've been deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan.
44:58Like maritime and diving was not on the, you know, we did it, but it wasn't like focused on." So, I told them, I was like, "I'm going to need some of your guys' help uh during this these blocks to actually, you know, succeed and be the best." And so, I I mean, I think that paid dividends cuz they were like, and I actually put uh some of them in charge and some stuff like, "Hey, you're going to run this." Um just I mean I was really running it but to give them the um confidence.
45:25>> Yeah. Feel like they're in charge.
45:27>> Yeah.
45:27>> Yeah.
45:28>> Um so yeah, when we got when we got on deployment um that's when thing things shifted really quickly. Um >> how so?
45:37>> Uh we got there and we hit the ground running. Um >> yeah, maybe a little context for people just what's going on at the time in in Iraq.
45:45>> Okay. So obviously ISIS uh had control of Mosul. Um and there was a SEAL platoon that was already there which my best friend was a platoon chief of. Um they had pushed through the east side of Mosul. Um and that's Trump took office when they were um on their deployment. I think it was like the last two months of their deployment when Trump took office and that's when they were started being able to push. They're like, "Hey, you're going to push through the eastern side of Mosul, which was pretty uh rural." Um and then you had the western side which was completely urban. I mean, just cities, city after city, like it was
46:22just packed.
46:23>> So, by the time we got there, they had cleared the eastern side and we were being tasked with doing the western. And I remember my best friend, we had about two days of uh we call it turnover. So, when you you show up, you do like a little turnover with the platoon that's there. Um, you know, I usually get what's working for them, like, hey, what have you been doing that works, what hasn't been working, so you can start implementing those, you know, if that's what you want to do. um >> just two days.
46:49>> Well, yeah. Sometime usually um you show up a week in advance or two weeks in advance and you'll do some turnover operations where you'll go out with that platoon, but we did not do that. Um it was literally because we actually the reason we didn't do it is because we were given a different partner force.
47:08So, they were working with the um oh [ __ ] the Kurds uh Peshmerga.
47:16>> Yes.
47:17And so they had been working with them.
47:19I don't know why I blanked on that.
47:20>> It's all good.
47:21>> And then when we showed up, they're like, "Hey, you guys aren't going to be working with them. You're going to be working with ERD, Emergency Response Division, which is a bunch of Iraqis."
47:30Um, >> that's not as good.
47:32>> It's Yeah. Well, from what I was told, the Peshmerga were awesome to work with.
47:36Yeah. Just like >> on board with doing everything.
47:41>> This group was not vetted. um they had a heavy Iranian influence. So, we were told like, "Hey, you need to watch, keep eyes in the back of your head because some of these guys could smoke you um if they wanted to." So, it was definitely like, "All right, um this is going to be a little complicated."
48:00Um we ended up we were in um this mansion when we showed up, which is where the team was staying. because we were clearing the western side, we ended up having to move into Mosul and stage out of there. And we actually we fell under the Marine Corps. We fell under Mars. Um cuz they had operational control. U so my platoon and one other SEAL platoon fell under a Mars command which was awesome. Uh they I could not say better things about them and the way they operate. Um but they pretty much uh took over a couple houses right outside of uh western Mosul and that's where we lived. Um it was a [ __ ] hole. Um it was
48:40like you know but it was like everything that I nothing I hadn't done before. I was like this is what I expected. Um you know no I think there was out of the four platoon that were there plus the headshed and all the administrative we had two portagons. No no no no showers.
48:57Um >> Oh wow.
48:59No, it was just MREs. Uh, but that's, you know, I was I was sort of like, this is reminiscent to the beginning of the war, like okay, we're we're back, you know. Uh, >> had you had exposure already in in in any previous deployments to ISIS?
49:14>> No.
49:14>> So, this is your first time with that?
49:16>> Yeah. Um, yeah, I had not we had not gone against ISIS. It was all, you know, Taliban, al-Qaeda. Um so we show up there and it was literally um dude it was like figure it out. Uh so we were given the partner force and they're like hey you guys are going to we were doing aa mission which is advised assist and accompany right so we were really there just to advise them and assist them with air assets and then if need be if need be we accompany them up to like help them out to get the job done. But that's like last resort. Yeah. Right.
49:54>> Um the rule was we were not allowed 800 m. Um we had to be 800 m back from the front line. We could not like go up to the fighting. Um so we >> the hell are you there for >> to air assets? So what we would do is we would go out. This is like the first couple weeks and this is when I talk about figuring it out. Um the the first day that we started clearing was probably one of the gnarliest like things I'd seen. Uh we show up there must have been miles of just Iraqi Humvees down stretching the line and they were like pretty much came over comms and was like and go and they just started pushing into the city and
50:38they're just blowing up like let IEDs going off like you're just watching mayhem happen. It was like a a thing out of Braveheart. You're just like, "What the fuck?" So, our job is to we set back, we fly a Puma or a drone, we look for targets with the Puma or drone, and then we had mortars, and we would either hit them the target with mortars or call in air strikes, right? Um, the problem with that was the Iraqis were getting their [ __ ] pushed in and the leadership of the Iraqis were like, "Hey, you need to come up there with us and we had to." Well, we're not allowed.
51:18>> Oh, [ __ ] >> And then they were like, "Well, you guys are [ __ ] cowards." And so you're you're not gaining the respect of the partner force that you're working with.
51:25So, I played this game, me and my OIC played this game for about I'd say a couple weeks and we're like, "Dude, this doesn't make any sense." Because also, what would happen is we were sitting back 800 meters and ISIS had drones. So, the ISIS ISIS >> Oh, that's nice.
51:41>> Yeah, it was it was awesome. It was like a really 360 environment. You had to not look for IEDs, V-bids. Now, you look up in the air.
51:49>> So, ISIS would fly over drones and as soon as that would happen, we were taking mortars. Uh cuz what they would do is just get your location, boom, and start hitting you with mortars. And so we were just getting smacked with mortars each time we went out. Uh and they were come coming close. And so um we would call back and be like, "Hey, we want to push forward because we're taking fire." And they're like, "Nope, just return to base." Um so we just kept doing that and I was like, "Dude, we're not making any ground. Like this isn't doing anything." So myself and the OIC were like, "Listen, we're going we're
52:22going to go on the offensive here."
52:24Like, "We're an offensive unit. This is not We can't just sit back here and do nothing." Yeah.
52:30>> And so >> we started going out. We'd set up our position where we were supposed to 800 meters or wherever we we chose, but then I would take an element up closer to a I would Well, at first I would go wrecky a spot with a couple guys.
52:44>> What a spot.
52:45>> Wy uh Recon.
52:46>> Oh, got it. recon a spot, find some high ground, and that was, you know, had a good advantageous position, and then I would come back and grab, you know, four or five guys, go up there with javelins, sniper rifles, adubs, all the organic weapons that we had at our disposal, and we started having an effect. Um, cuz then we were able to engage ISIS, you know, from an area that we could see them and the partner force started moving. They started clearing because of that because we were going up there not only helping them out in that way, but they we were showing them like, "Hey, dude, we're in this with you." Yeah.
53:20Like, let's go.
53:21>> Like, this makes on paper this makes all the sense in the world. Obviously, I I see why you did it, but was there because you're kind of entering that gray area of technically not doing the 800 meters back thing? Was Is this where there started to be like guys in the platoon like we're not supposed to be doing this [ __ ] Yeah, I think u well I think from the get-go when we showed up like I talked about we only had about two or three days and then it was like go. Um and like I said it was definitely it was a [ __ ] chaotic environment dude. Like we had our partner force. There was also probably three other partner force
53:57elements out there that belong to um another platoon or >> uh you know an ODA platoon. And then just then there was just like regular Iraqi police that were out there clearing. So you had all these elements that you had to keep track of. Um we used these ATACs. Um so we would look on our phones and a lot of the partner force would have these beacons on them so you could tell where they were on the battle space.
54:24>> But then the problem was they would get killed and ISIS would have the beacons >> and so you were like well we don't know if this is ISIS or what. Uh, so it was just one of those like figuring it out was it was definitely um drinking from a fire hose for the first couple weeks of like all right, but once we got into a groove and we knew what we were doing, um, we started pushing forward and yeah, I there was some push back. Um, well, one thing, first things first is we were going out every day and like I said, we were living in shitty living conditions.
54:55>> But what I did was like I described before how we would just take these mortars every day. I brought the whole platoon out probably for the first four or five days. Um and then I realized I'm like this is stupid. Um there's too many. We have too much of a footprint out here. So I was like this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to split the platoon in half.
55:14>> Half the platoon went back to remember I talked about that mansion.
55:16>> Yes.
55:17>> In Herbiel. I sent I sent half the platoon back to Herbiel and was like, "Hey, you guys are going to go back rest and refit for a week. Then you will come change out with the other half of the platoon and then they will get to go rest and refit for a week. myself, the OIC, and I think two other individuals were we stayed out there the whole time.
55:35So, that right there I think caused some issues um unbeknownst to me at the time.
55:41Um I thought I was like doing them a favor. Uh or just being like, "Hey, this is just makes sense." But what happens is these guys would go back and rest and refit. Um and they'd [ __ ] about whatever because there was no one there to control the bitching. It was just like they I call them hate circles, right? They're just like, "Oh, they start complaining. They all get, you know, riled up."
56:04>> Did you see this in your previous years in other platoon? Did you ever see stuff like that happen?
56:08>> Yeah, dude. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. If guys aren't bitching, then they're plotting, right? So, >> it's fine. It's like if they're complaining, great. It's But it only You only allow it to get to a certain point and then you have to squash it and be like, "Just shut the [ __ ] up. Like, this is the job."
56:22>> Yeah. Um, so you know, I've seen before and you know when I was part of we called the E5 mafia. Uh, you're in the E5 mafia, you you think you know it all and you're like complaining about the leadership and blah blah blah and it's just natural. It it happens, right? And but the thing is it never gets like unprofessional. It doesn't it stays within the E5 mafia and that's it. It doesn't like go outside the platoon or or even to the leadership.
56:50>> Yeah. Um, so this this is sort of like what was going on. Uh, >> but by the way, real quick, like when I look at your story after the fact as you're going to go through this and drop the details, >> once I really learn what actually happened, which was I I think the first one I saw was Sean Ryan's podcast on that, which was excellent. I was like, "Holy [ __ ] you can't just believe what you hear on TV." But, >> you know, there were so many little things, like teeny tiny things, and you'll end up describing some of them, where it's like in hindsight, >> nothing was wrong there, but you could see how that then looks if you just take
57:26that and lift that and say, "Oh, but he did this."
57:29>> Yeah.
57:30>> Like there's there's these little moments where I'm just thinking to myself as a human and I'm like, I would never think anything of that. And then you see it in some different like litup context, you know? Like if you're in the bar and you see a lot of ugly girls, but like you go like this and one of them looks hotter. Yeah.
57:44>> You know what I mean? Like it's almost like or looks uglier once you see it cuz she looked hot cuz all the other ones were ugly. Like it's almost like that with your story.
57:52>> It's a bunch of tiny little red flags that really weren't I didn't think were that big of a deal. Um, and and like I've said this in other podcasts, I give them the benefit of the doubt as far as they had never been to combat and then they get thrown into this and it was >> a very chaotic in kinetic deployment.
58:13Um, but the amount of like atrocity like the amount of atrocities that were witnessed on that deployment, I had never seen and I'd seen my fair share and it this was ISIS was like on another level.
58:25>> What kinds of things did you see? Um well just to like give you so even the partner force so this wasn't an Americanled war right we were there yes doing advising assisting accompanying so the Iraqis were like the lead >> um we lived with them and so where we live in this house was attached to another room that the Iraqis had and that was their torture chamber. Um so we went to bed every night listening to ISIS just like get tortured killed. I mean it was like normal. It was like, okay. Um, which was kind of weird, but nobody, >> it was sort of like, this is happening.
59:03Uh, but whatever.
59:05>> It's not our jurisdiction.
59:06>> Nobody Yeah. I don't It was like, who what are we going to report, you know?
59:10Um, >> and then on the flip side of that is as we're, you know, clearing through Missoul, I mean, it wasn't uncommon like when I talked about going to recon areas, like I would you have to climb over mountains of dead bodies to get into buildings. They would pile up women and kids. Uh and then they would I mean >> pile up women and kids.
59:31>> Yeah. Dead bodies to block off um entrances. Um and then they we at one point we had pulled into a uh it was like downtown near the museum in Missoul, but there was a park and there was kids heads on spikes. Um >> kids >> kids. Yeah. Decapitated kids heads uh on spikes.
59:52And then they would a couple times they would they would um they'd probably be like three or 400 meters away from us with a field in front of us and then they would send out a group of like 15 women and kids some men sprinting towards us and then mow them down and like they were trying to get us to come out of our position to go help which it worked. The Iraqis a partner force would go out there and try and help and then they would get smoked.
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