0:01which was a thinly disguised fictional retelling of the Rendlesham Forest incident, which was Britain's best known UFO case.
0:10>> Can you walk us through that? That's actually a great segue. I didn't know that a lot of a lot of people in America I I just heard about this recently, but a lot of us we don't know this story like we know Roswell and everything. So, can you just go through the whole thing?
0:23>> Sure, and it is it is I think the best case we had in our files. It took place in December 1980. So, by the time I joined it was already over 10 years in the past.
0:37I later did a cold case review of it, but um you know, it was my predecessor or one of my predecessors who did did the actual contemporaneous investigation. So, the the story of Rendlesham December 1980 over three consecutive nights um uh the early hours of December 26th then the 27th and the 28th there was activity. This took place at two military bases Bentwaters and Woodbridge.
1:13Now, they were US Air Force bases on British soil. So, they were part of the the wider US military presence in Europe.
1:23And um on the first night of activity and and Bentwaters and Woodbridge are a couple of miles apart and Rendlesham Forest lies between them.
1:35>> And what part of the island are are we on?
1:38>> This is I guess you would call it I mean, the county was Suffolk.
1:44>> Got it. Can we pull this up, Alessi?
1:46Just on a map.
1:47>> It's um yeah, it's it's um I don't know, 50 somewhere between 50 and 80 miles northeast of London.
1:56>> Okay. Got it.
1:57>> Close to the coast.
1:58>> I was going to say it's going to be right up on the coast. So, there's two bases separated by the Rendlesham How do you pronounce Rendlesham Forest?
2:04Rendlesham?
2:05>> Rendlesham.
2:05>> Rendlesham Forest.
2:07>> Yeah.
2:08And uh on the first night of activity, some security police and law enforcement personnel saw strange multicolored lights in the forest.
2:22And uh their first thought was maybe a light aircraft has crashed.
2:30Um maybe there's a fire. We should kind of go out there immediately and investigate. Well, they found out that there wasn't an aircraft crash. Nothing like that had been reported, but they did find out that an uncorrelated target had been tracked on radar directly over the base.
2:49Was there for a few sweeps and then had disappeared.
2:53So, again, that was maybe indicative that something had come down, but but no aircraft had been reported um missing or anything like that. No no distress calls had been uh sent in or or or anything. But nonetheless, they thought, well, something's going on. Let's Let's go out and investigate.
3:16So, a a number of different people went out there, maybe about half a dozen, but uh then their radios started malfunctioning. And these were line of sight radios, so sometimes it was just topography, but but this was kind of talking to the guys in later years, they said, you know, we we know what our radios did and didn't do, and this was unusual.
3:42So, they set up a radio relay, which which was just pretty low-tech in a sense. It just meant, well, leave one guy back there, uh then another guy another few hundred yards in and if we can't re- relay a message back to base, we'll relay a message to the the last guy behind us and he can relay a message to the next guy because the what I'm saying is that the range of the radios seem to have markedly dropped.
4:10So, at the end of all this, three people kind of approached something and you know, over 40 years on now, if you talk to some of these guys, they all they all have different recollections now over what exactly they saw and encountered.
4:30Um, one of them talks about it in terms of being a a structured craft that had landed, not crashed.
4:38Hm, one of them talks about it in terms of just being a really intense light.
4:44The um A lot of these characters have had some fairly aggressive debriefings from their own chain of command, both both being interrogated by Air Force Office of Special Investigations, but also the use of regression hypnosis and >> Regression hypnosis?
5:03>> Yeah.
5:03>> What is that?
5:04>> Uh, where you hypnotize someone, take them back to the incident and say, "Now, give us your recollections." Because sometimes the feeling is the conscious memory has lost something or blocks something.
5:18There might be something in the subconscious. It's very controversial because some people say, "No, no, it can it can actually create false memories."
5:27But it was a technique that that was and maybe still is used from time to time. Um I I as I say, there are mixed opinions on its its value, but also um, drugs were used. Uh, as sodium pentothal I if I'm pronouncing that correctly, sort of truth serums.
5:51And again, it wasn't clear I'm getting ahead of myself here, by the way.
5:55>> wild.
5:56>> But it wasn't clear whether some of the witnesses were being given all this to deliberately jumble their memories of this, to maybe hide the reality of what they encountered, or maybe the chain of command really wanted to know and thought there's more details here than these people have consciously recalled. So, that's one of many, many controversial areas of this case.
6:20>> How big were they initially reporting they thought the craft was?
6:26Approximately?
6:27>> Well, Jim Penniston who was I I think a sergeant or a staff sergeant at the time, he is the one that talks most definitively about this in terms of it being a structured craft. He estimates maybe about 9 ft across at the base.
6:47Kind of triangular in shape, almost like a a a a lunar landing module, so sort of tapering moving upwards, maybe 9 ft tall.
7:00But, and this is the really surreal and bizarre thing, with strange symbols, almost like hieroglyphic symbols on the side of this thing.
7:10>> They could see that?
7:12>> He talks about that. I I'm >> How far away is this craft?
7:15>> I don't know.
7:16Jim Jim's testimony is that he went right up to it and touched it.
7:21>> Oh, >> And he said when he touched it, he got a kind of almost like a mental shock or something, and something changed in the feel and the brightness of the craft, and he immediately thought, "Oops, I shouldn't have done that."
7:40Um and he's like he, one of Jim's specialisms was aircraft recognition. He was one of these people that could see a silhouette on a flashcard or and and immediately go, "That's a a MiG-29 or that's an F-16 or that" and he's like, "This is this is not an aircraft.
8:00This is like not you know, it's a like a lunar landing module or something, but it isn't."
8:06>> And you didn't see any creatures or anything?
8:07>> No.
8:08>> So, it wasn't of the third kind.
8:09>> stories about that, but but you know, the the witnesses who talk about that, they so far as I can tell are just want-to-bes who've written themselves into the story over the years. The people who are actually verifiably there and when I say verifiably because we have their after-action reports, you know, as part of the US Air Force files, for example. So, we know who was there and and who wasn't. Um, you know, so I I I don't take reports of entities seriously.
8:45>> How long cuz you said you were looking basically through the cold case of it at that point?
8:49>> Yeah.
8:50>> Was this a at the time was this a very public known disclosure in a way of an investigation or was this private and came out later?
9:00>> People knew the incident had happened because the story actually made the front page of a British tabloid newspaper in 1983.
9:10>> Few years later.
9:11>> Yes. But again, remember that this is this is before the internet and the old saying today's today's newspaper is tomorrow's fish and chip paper. Like it's a British saying, but um, I've heard that one before. So, so yes, there was some knowledge that this incident had taken place. There'd been this newspaper story, some follow-up stories, couple of books written about it, but a lot of the information was pretty wide of the mark.
9:45And and so, Jim Penniston talked about touching the side of this thing, getting almost uh I hate to use this phrase, but I'm going to use it, telepathic download.
9:57>> Mhm.
9:58>> Because this takes us into and again, I'm getting ahead of myself, but it takes us into one of the most controversial aspects of this story, which is the so-called binary code message that subsequently came out.
10:12>> and ones.
10:13>> The zeros and ones.
10:15>> Can you explain that?
10:16This [clears throat] is wild.
10:17>> Years after all this, years, years, um in about 2010, Jim Penniston was taking part in a TV program that was recreating this incident.
10:32And he had his original police notebook there, in which he had sketched the symbols that he'd seen on the side of the craft.
10:43Because he his testimony is that he'd taken photos, but after he shot off the whole roll of film, he thought as a fallback, he would go go back to to old-fashioned methods and start making some sketches and notes.
11:00Good job he did because the base processing laboratory later told him those photos didn't take out, didn't come out properly. Now, >> That's convenient.
11:10>> Yeah. One theory is that that's true and that that is a byproduct of um radiation at the site. And I want to come on to radiation later because it's the single most important piece of physical evidence that we have.
11:31I So far, I've talked about eyewitness testimony. But I'm going to come on to talk about physical >> Okay.
11:38>> physical evidence.
11:40Um but it may be that it was a cover story. And that the actual pictures of this craft exist in in a file in a basement office somewhere in the intelligence community. I don't know.
11:55I don't know that. So >> Guys, if you'd like to check out Nick's book on Rendlesham encounter in Rendlesham Forest, you can do so by hitting the link to our Amazon store below. You will find his book right there along with a bunch of other books and films of guests that have been on the podcast. That is now live, so check out that link in the description. Also, if you haven't checked them out already, our Discord and Patreon links are in the description. We are starting to do AMAs on Discord, and we are also now releasing a new show called the Julian and Alessy show with my producer Alessy Aleman on Patreon along with some other
12:29exclusive content from episodes that we have been putting out on YouTube that are not seen on YouTube. So anyway, Jim Jim was leafing through the scat the the the notebook where he'd written things like speed impossible because this thing was on the ground for I don't know 10 15 minutes. Then it And this was a small clearing in the forest where apparently it had smashed some branches to come come in through the canopy. And then uh it took off vertically very slowly cleared the the treetops, and then shot away at high speed generated >> touched it.
13:05>> After he touched it.
13:06>> After he touched it. So nothing happened when he touched it.
13:09>> Uh well, >> Other than his own effect.
13:10>> His his own effect. No, nothing happened. Well, no, the I I think it did change in brightness.
13:19But I'm doing this from memory in a >> Okay.
13:22>> It situation where I haven't looked at his testimony for for some time. I can't remember whether he described the hull as being hot, cold, or neutral to the touch. I can't remember whether he said that that changed when he touched it or not, and I can't recall whether, although I think he said so some something changed physically as well as well as getting this But I I can't swear to it.
13:50>> Okay.
13:51>> So, you know, I don't want to guess it.
13:53Um So, yeah. Any- anyway, it it shot off at high speed. He wrote in his book, "Speed Impossible."
14:02>> And how did it did it rise up like anti-gravity? And then >> you know, I I don't want to say I anti-gravity because I we we have vertical takeoff and landing technology. It could could just be like a a Harrier jump jet, except there was no sound.
14:19>> No sound.
14:20>> so that is interesting because normally where you have these these vertical takeoff and there's a huge >> Oh, yeah.
14:28>> sound, a roar of the engine. So, again, indicative possibly of an exotic radically different propulsion system.
14:39>> And you said there were three verifiable witnesses though. There was What What's this guy's name again?
14:44>> This guy is Jim Penniston.
14:47>> and then there were two others?
14:48>> John Burroughs, who was a little further back and talks about this in terms of intense light that he couldn't see past.
14:58So, he didn't see the craft.
15:01Um and then Ed Cavanissay, who was even further back and was so spooked by some of this that he's he's only ever gone on the record couple of times very briefly. So, we don't might have much testimony from him at all.
15:18Um Afterwards, a lot of them were told to write statements.
15:22He did later say, Cavanac said, "Look, I Yeah, I I didn't even read my statement.
15:29They typed something up, put it in front of me, I signed it. I just He said, 'I just wanted to get out of there.'" >> That's interesting.
15:35>> Anyway, so the the story of this binary code is that um Jim Penniston for this TV interview was was going to talk about the symbols.
15:46And somebody just walking past him and looking over his shoulder before the interview said, "What's that?"
15:54And there were like 16 pages of ones and zeros. And Jim looked a bit embarrassed and said, "Oh, that's that's I don't really know." And they had to kind of tease the story out of him. And the story was that he got this kind of download when he touched the side of the thing. And that two or three days later, at home, he got a sudden compulsion to get out this book. And he just wrote 16 pages of ones and zeros. Was then almost too embarrassed about it and or forgot about it and didn't say anything for another you know, few decades. Yeah. And bear in mind >> in any way?
16:37>> Yes, it was. Although I I I want to come on to that. I I just want to make one other point about Jim.
16:45Jim stayed in the service.
16:47So, it it kind of became okay to talk a little bit about the UFO because I'll as I'll go on to say, I've only talked so far about the first of three nights of activities.
16:58activity.
17:01On one of the the later nights, the deputy base commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Halt, himself became a witness and kind of got dragged into the public domain on this. So, Jim was kind of okay with talking about it because it's like, "Hey, well, my my colonel, he he saw it, too, on a different night, not landed, but but look, if if the Deputy Base Commander saw it and is talking about it, it's kind of okay for me to talk about that, but he knew it was not going to be okay to talk about telepathic downloads, so he just either kept quiet or blocked it or both.
17:36>> So, he thought that's interesting though, because the whole thing, especially back then, would have sounded preposterous to anyone, but he was [clears throat] still separating out like, well, that I could talk about, but this I can't.
17:45>> Yeah. He still put a a grade on it.
17:47>> You could talk about the UFO because you've got that top cover from from from Colonel Halt there.
17:53>> Okay.
17:54>> But, ones and zeros, no. It sounded crazy then, arguably, it sounds crazy now.
18:00>> Sure.
18:01>> It does have, apparently, a translation.
18:04The TV production company found a a computer engineer, computer scientist who who did the the sort of whatever that code is, the the what is it? The ASCII Whatever it is, but anyway, binary to to basically to normal language, and apparently, and I'm doing this from memory.
18:25So, I may I may get this >> pull it up, Leslie.
18:27>> Yeah, it's it's it's out there on the net, but apparently, it translates to continuous exploration for planetary advance.
18:39Eyes of our eyes origin year 8,100.
18:47And they then follow a series of latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates.
18:55>> Wait a second.
18:56>> Yeah.
18:57I know.
18:58>> Is this like a future human implication?
19:00>> Yes, it is.
19:01>> Oh my god.
19:03>> Those latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates apparently correlate with some of the most mysterious sacred sites on the face of the planet, including the Great Pyramid at Giza, >> [laughter] >> Sedona, the Nazca lines, um and and so forth.
19:26And a mysterious lost continent from Celtic legend called Hy-Brasil.
19:36It's It's bizarre.
19:38Myself, if this is genuine, I think it's kind of too good to be true because it's like a almost like a buzzword bingo of of your new age bucket list.
19:52>> Yes, it is.
19:53>> If this is real as opposed to something that that Jim and I I I don't mean made up, but >> Well, I don't like that a TV production company is the one who like oversaw this and brought in the computer guy. That >> Well, they didn't No, I I do enough TV to know that that normally they don't like surprises. So, they kind of had to scramble around for this and and and and this was all a bit last minute.
20:22So, I don't and and they weren't they weren't so so much pulling the strings.
20:28They were just like, "Is this something or is this nothing?"
20:30>> Do we Did they show his four zeros and ones code?
20:35>> Oh, yes.
20:35>> public info now so we can pull that up?
20:37>> So, technically the expertise of of among the public of people who do translations like this could check that work.
20:45>> Oh, yeah. I mean, nowadays it's much easier. I mean, there are literally if if you manually now put those ones and zeros in the correct order, there are sites that will translate binary to to English and and vice versa.
21:00>> And it translates the same way.
21:01>> a like a sort of Google Translate or Bing Translate. There's a equivalent for binary. So, I don't think there's much dispute that that's what it translates as.
21:12>> Wow.
21:13>> But, my point is this is too good to be true. And if this is a message from, you know, ostensibly I guess because it says origin year 8100, the implication would be time travelers from the future.
21:29>> Multiverse.
21:29>> With, yeah. I yeah, but I don't know.
21:31Grandfather paradox.
21:33It's >> A lot of things.
21:35>> Yeah, a lot of things. It could be a lot of things. Yes.
21:36>> I think if this is real, that this is just a like an attention getter and that the real message somehow is hidden deeper.
21:47>> What do you mean by that?
21:48>> Well, it gets our attention because everyone goes, "Ooh, great pyramids, yeah, Sedona."
21:55>> Sexy.
21:55>> But, but if there's a real and important message from the future, or or maybe not from the future, maybe from extraterrestrials, maybe it's hidden somewhere else in the message. Now, look, I'm not a cryptographer, but I do know that there are, I don't know, ways of almost like presenting a solution that looks like a solution, but really it isn't. That the real answer is much deeper in. I I'm maybe I'm not describing that very well.
22:27>> No, that's perfect. I understand exactly what you mean.
22:29>> Right. You'd need to talk to a a cryptographer about this or, you know, a symbologist or both or mathematician.
22:37Anyway, look, it's it's one of the most controversial aspects of the case, but if if if you take it out of the case, you've still got a case. I mean, I mentioned the physical evidence. That's a big part of it.
22:50>> Now, I don't know what you're allowed to talk about and what you're not. So, if I bring up things that you can't talk about, just say you can't and then we'll move on.
22:57>> Absolutely. I mean, I any public interview I do can only be at a an unclassified level, otherwise I'll be breaking the law.
23:06>> Sure. So, basic question.
23:10Did the You said you looked at like the cold case file of it, which means you're still looking at it.
23:15>> Right. I I did the cold case review. So, I had the original 1980 file.
23:20>> So, did they have a conclusion on there?
23:22>> No, they did not.
23:23>> They didn't.
23:24>> No.
23:25It was It was unknown.
23:26>> Open-ended.
23:27>> So, I use an analogy about UFO sightings, which I think is quite helpful, let I say to myself.
23:36I I say it's kind of like a crime file.
23:39Um cops will investigate all the crimes, and hopefully they will have a good solving rate, and those cases can then be closed.
23:52Any case where a cop opens an investigation, but doesn't actually solve the case, technically, even if there comes a a time when you stop putting resources on it because you've just done everything that you can do, you've interviewed all the witnesses, you've done all the the forensics you can do, technically, that case is still an open case because it's unsolved. I mean, to give an extreme example, the the Jack the Ripper murders are technically an open case. Now, we know as a degree of intellectual certainty that the perpetrator is dead, of course, because the murders were committed in 1888. So,
24:37so >> He'd be a real son of a if he was still alive.
24:40>> So, [laughter] so you know, nobody is obviously going to try and investigate that case with a view of of bringing anyone to justice because it's too late. They may, however, as a matter of historical interest and curiosity, occasionally pull out that file and do something with it.
25:06So So UFO investigations are very much like police investigations. At the end of the day, you solve most of them. And I I mentioned we got two or 300 cases each year. And I do my investigations.
25:23>> Oh, I Okay, I I misunderstood you for a second. Keep going.
25:25>> No, so I I interview the witness. I analyze any photos or videos that we have. I cross-reference with flight paths, with weather balloon launches, with astronomical data.
25:38Each of my cases at the end, it's like this was almost certainly a military exercise where pirate where flares were dropped.
25:49>> But not for this one.
25:50>> Not for this one. So an unsolved UFO case is like an unsolved crime case. The It sits there kind of even if it gathers dust, but technically unsolved open case.
26:04Rendlesham was an unsolved case.
26:06>> All right, so I'm going to cover your camera real fast. I want you to blink twice if you actually [laughter] do know what happened.
26:13>> I'm not playing that game, but no, honestly, hand on heart.
26:16>> poker face.
26:17>> Hand on heart, we we we did not have a definitive explanation. What we need The way I tell it is I can tell you what it wasn't, but I can't tell you what it was.
26:29>> All right, well, let's do that.
26:30>> I mean, not can't you know, as in I know and don't I I literally do not know and I'm not convinced that anyone does have an explanation.
26:41But look, we went through very carefully all the possibilities. Was this Could this be some sort of elaborate practical joke that got out of hand? I mean there is a culture of practical jokes in the military.
26:57>> hell of a practical joke.
26:58>> be, but a couple of people have retrospectively claimed that they played that practical joke. I think they are either mistaken or they're just outright lying and >> Yeah, having a having some sort of dronish technology and at that size of a craft in 1980, come on.
27:18>> Sure. Yeah, there's a couple of There's one guy who says that he drove his police car into the forest and then put the lights on without the siren. Well, that kind of doesn't really make any sense and there's no evidence that even happened. The guy may simply be trying to write himself into the story. Even if it did happen, there's no evidence that it it yeah, it kind of played any role in this. There's another guy who said that they had One of the things that they had at the base was they they had a a unit called the I don't know I I can't remember what it it was, but if one of the Apollo capsules came down
28:02in an unanticipated area like obviously for a an Apollo mission, you have your splashdowns um in designated areas, but sometimes things can go wrong and what if it splashes down in another part of the world? You have to have a unit that would be able to go at immediate notice and fish them out. So, there was a unit there that had a dummy Apollo capsule.
28:26So, one of the theories was could that have been I I know it's >> Noiseless though.
28:33>> I know I know. That's that's why this doesn't make sense.
28:37It's why it doesn't make sense. So, so but somebody said is it possible that this could have been lowered under a helicopter, dropped in the the Yeah, yeah, it's the With the invisible strings and Yeah, I know. I It doesn't make sense, but in [snorts] a thorough investigation, you have to If somebody says we did this prank, you know, even if it's years afterwards, you have to say, >> Yeah, you got to look at it.
29:02>> Is that possible? Could it be?
29:05>> Yeah, you have to look into it.
29:06>> Yeah. And there's another theory that that British special forces played a a prank on their American colleagues and snuck into the the facility and I I you know, it's it's all friend of a friend stuff when it comes to this, but you have to you have to consider it. So, we we looked at all that and eliminated it. We looked at all the the I mean, again, as I say, 90 percent of all of this is going to be aircraft, lights, weather balloons, meteor, satellites.
29:43>> How many cases would you say, ballpark, you had to review and at least look into before crossing off the list or maybe not over your 3 4 years there?
29:54>> Um >> Thousands?
29:58>> Yeah, I I would say I I don't know. The number of cases that came in that I investigated was was probably less than that.
30:07Probably 7 800 900, something like that.
30:12>> But obviously from time to time I would dip into the archives to because one of the big things that you tried to do was do some trend analysis. I mean, as I say, I did this job '91 to '94.
30:26We'd had sightings going back to the to the Second World War. We'd had a formally constituted program from 1953 onwards. We had a lot of files.
30:36I mean, one of the reasons I can talk about this and And security oath my secrecy oath binds me for life, but so I I can only talk about things that are unclassified and in the public domain. But one of the reasons that I am able to talk about this is the British government has declassified and released a lot of this material. And just to give you an idea, and and they by the way, I'd taken early retirement when they released this, but they asked me to come back and help publicize the campaign.
31:07Uh so so because it was a good good way to show our commitment to open >> That was um the program to declassify the first batch of files was declassified and released in May 2008.
31:24I recorded a video for it somewhere at the National Archives.
31:27>> And you'd gotten out in '06.
31:29>> I'd gotten out in '06.
31:30But the point is that that program, which was originally supposed to take 3 years, 2 to 3 years, ended up taking 11 years uh cuz all sorts of other things kept getting in the way.
31:43We we declassified and released or or sometimes didn't declassify because it was unclassified, but you still have to redact, for example, the names and addresses and personal data of witnesses for data protection.
31:56Um we we've released about 60,000 pages of of UAP-related documentation. So there's a lot.
32:04>> And how much of it comes to a conclusion and says, "Oh, it was this." or "Oh, it was most likely that." versus how much of it is the open-ended stuff like we can't explain this?
32:12>> Well, most of it comes to a definitive conclusion. Or if it doesn't actually say so in black and white, it is obvious from from the documents what it is. I mean, to give an extreme example, um bright white light with green and red flashing lights either side seen close to Heathrow Airport.
32:35I mean, literally, you you would Yeah.
32:37So, some of it is is blindingly obvious.
32:41So, [snorts] So, so that that was that. But before I lose my thread, let me get just get back to the Rendlesham story.
32:49>> Um >> I'll do the second and third nights quite quickly.
32:54>> Well, we've got all day. Take your time.
32:56>> Well, no, we haven't.
32:57>> [laughter] >> Hey, tonight they're turning on the lights at the Bryant Park Christmas tree.
33:04>> are?
33:04>> Yeah, yeah.
33:06Yeah, got to get to that.
33:07>> What time is that at?
33:08>> I think it's 6:00. But >> Well, we'll be happy to go.
33:10>> Um yeah.
33:12Um but so anyway, and um yeah, but and and maybe there's some hot mulled wine.
33:18>> Oh, yeah.
33:19>> Yeah, good stuff. I mean the Christmas market, right?
33:21>> That's it. That's Every word is like say it's got such a possess to it in British. It's great.
33:26>> Anyway, back to Rendlesham. So, the second night of activity, uh we don't know much about it because these people did not submit formal incident reports really because turned into a bit of a scandal.
33:45Um apparently, some military personnel and I can't remember whether it was Bentwaters or Woodbridge, but they were driving a Jeep and a ball of light kind of went through the the cab and there were two witnesses, the the driver and the front seat passenger. And I can't remember whether their testimony was that the windows were open.
34:09I rather think not because this is December, UK. It was freezing cold. I think the testimony is almost like some of these weird ball lightning cases that this ball of light sort of physically somehow went through the closed glass window on one side and then out on the other.
34:30And apparently, one of the witnesses was so traumatized by this that they had a kind of almost break down and had to be returned to the United States to their parent unit.
34:42I'm less authoritative on that because I have not spoken to the individual concerned. I've only had this story, albeit from two or three people who were there.
34:53But I've only had that second-hand.
34:56So, >> It's fascinating It's fascinating the especially with like the biggest stories you say in the UK, that there is at least on the ground US involvement.
35:08>> Yes.
35:09It's It's always there.
35:10>> Yeah.
35:10>> So, the third night, things get quite interesting. There is an award ceremony in in the social club, one of these kind of Christmas end-of-year events.
35:26And all the the senior officers are present.
35:31And then the door opens and a flustered junior officer comes up to the senior commanders and salutes and says, "Sir, it's back."
35:41And and they all like, "What what What are you talking about?" The guy says, "The UFO has returned."
35:48So, there is a discussion. Obviously, people at the senior commanders had been briefed that something had happened.
35:57They were still investigating. No one knew exactly what or if they did, they weren't saying.
36:04So, the senior officers, the two senior officers present, or I think the three, kind of batted it around between them and were like, "Okay, who's going to who's going to deal with this?" And the deputy base commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Halt, he said, "I'll I'll do it."
36:26And he threw together a team of about half a dozen people and and sort of went out. They didn't They didn't see anything straight away. So, what they decided to do was they were like, "Well, let's go to the location where this thing apparently landed on the first night."
36:47And they went to the site and I I kind of skipped over this when talking about the first night, but it kind of wraps up with the third night, so it doesn't matter.
36:58>> You had said that there was I just remember this though, you had said that there was conflicting reports from an eyewitness over time as to whether or not it crashed or landed originally.
37:07>> I I don't think anyone said it crashed, but there was there were conflicting reports over whether it was a structured craft or just a very, very bright light that that that the other witness couldn't see what was emitting that light.
37:21So, um they went to this clearing. And they already knew this, but but there were the physical traces, the branches had been smashed off the trees.
37:38Um fairly small clearing.
37:40Branches smashed off the trees apparently by this object as it had first come down and perhaps as it had taken off again.
37:48>> Did it look I don't know if you'll know this detail off hand, but did it look like it had almost incinerated what was in its trail or like it had a rough landing and you know, there's a bumpiness to the to where the branches used to be and stuff like that if that makes sense.
38:05>> there were burn marks and scorch marks on the sides of some of the trees.
38:10>> Mhm.
38:11>> And there were three indentations in the ground bro- bro- broadly speaking in the shape of a triangle.
38:19And bear in mind, this is December um UK. It was freezing cold. The ground was was fairly frozen.
38:31Colonel Halt has estimated that the object must have weighed several tons to have caused the indentations that it did. And at one point, I think a couple of the witnesses, both Colonel Halt and Jim Penniston, literally poured plaster of Paris into one of the holes, or maybe more than one, to get a mold of what the the strut, or whatever you call it, the landing leg, whatever terminology, to what it looked like.
39:07It was It was not a particularly scientific, >> But still, do we have that mold?
39:12>> Yeah, we have that mold somewhere.
39:14>> Like Britain has it, or >> You know what? I want to say that I think Colonel Halt still has it.
39:22>> Oh, he kept it?
39:23>> Yeah, he kept it because when he left >> up Colonel Halt, if you don't mind?
39:28>> Yeah.
39:29Um And maybe Jim has one, too. You know, these people are quite sneaky at like taking things which you would think would be in the official case file. But this This was more kind of personal memorabilia.
39:42Um One time, I I forget whether it was Chuck or Jim.
39:48One of them was telling me that one time he took it somewhere, and TSA uh kind of like, "What the heck is that?"
39:57Yeah. It's like, "What the heck is this?"
39:59>> Is this guy still alive?
40:01>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I think he's about 80 >> Yeah, he's he's on he's on his way out, but maybe >> a friend of mine, and uh >> Oh, you know him still?
40:10>> You think he'd come in to a podcast about this?
40:12>> I don't know if he'd come in. Uh he's based Where is he based?
40:17Um You know, I do know, but I've kind of forgotten.
40:20>> All right.
40:21>> Um >> We'll talk about it off air.
40:22>> Yeah. Um I think, by a spooky coincidence, at one time he moved to Woodbridge in Virginia, and the name, of course, of one of the two bases was Woodbridge. Was Was Yeah, is it just one of those spooky >> It's a little perfect, don't know.
40:37>> coincidences, or is it something I I don't know what it is.
40:41Anyway, so Colonel Halt, he goes out to the landing site, but one of the people that he takes with him is a guy called Monroe Nevilles. And Monroe Nevilles is the disaster preparedness officer, and he has with him a Geiger counter.
40:57>> Mhm.
40:57>> And, of course, this is where I say, look, thus far we've talked quite a bit about You're saying eyewitness testimony from from military personnel, some quite senior, but it it is just testimony.
41:10Here we're segueing into to physical um evidence stuff, because Monroe Nevilles takes uh he he surveys the area with the Geiger counter, and he finds peak readings right in those three indentations.
41:28Not dangerous enough that he calls a halt and says, "Hey, back off."
41:33But but enough of a spike reading to be like, "Whoa, you know, something something happened here. What the heck?"
41:43Uh and that's written into Colonel Halt's initial incident report sent to the British Ministry of Defense.
41:52So, so because at some stage after this, of course, the the base commander, the wing commander, says, "Hey, you got to tell the Brits about this."
42:01>> Yeah, so how long after was that? That's my next question.
42:04>> bit too long. Um >> Like a day?
42:07>> Oh, no, no, like uh about 10 days.
42:13>> That's sketchy.
42:14>> It's It's a long, complicated, bureaucratic saga.
42:20>> to be pissed about that.
42:21>> We were a little Yeah, you know, a UFO [laughter] investigation A UFO investigation is like a police investigation. As I said before, the first 48 is critical. To get a written report from the US Air Force saying that there's been a a landing Oh, but by the way, it was like 2 weeks ago now.
42:44Yeah.
42:44>> That's not great.
42:45>> We were not I say we, of course you know, I was only doing the cold case review, so I was not the contemporaneous investigation.
42:53>> out or something.
42:53>> Somebody was you know Well, I don't know if they did, but um if you if you know how to read a very polite British sarcasm [laughter] some of the documents in the now declassified file reveal a degree of irritation with the US authorities for the delay and for the lack of information sharing. So, for example, um this object was briefly tracked on radar.
43:24Um you know, and there's there's a sarcastic comment along the lines of perhaps the Americans would care to share this information with us.
43:33>> [laughter] >> You know, it's I I don't won't have time to get into this in its level of detail too far, but that the status of forces agreement governs is the overarching The NATO status status of forces agreement is the overarching policy document that that kind of sets out the framework for how all this works in terms of US bases on British soil. And you can you can have all sorts of esoteric things, like what if an American serviceman shoots an American serviceman on the American base, who investigates?
44:15What if an American shoots a Brit? What if it happens off the base in the forest? And there all sorts of kind of permutations of this. Who has jurisdiction?
44:28Who has primacy?
44:30Anyone can have jurisdiction.
44:32Jurisdiction can be concurrent, but only one person has primacy, self-evidently.
44:37So >> What's the difference?
44:39>> Jurisdiction is the legal authority to investigate something. Primacy is who has the lead for it.
44:46>> Ah.
44:47Okay. So it gets weird.
44:49>> It gets weird, and to be honest, confusion about that is one of the things that led to the delay and the poor information sharing on this case.
44:57But the $64,000 is is about this this level of radioactivity.
45:04>> I feel like it's worth a little more than that, but you know.
45:06>> It's well >> Add a few zeros, maybe.
45:09>> When I did the cold case review, I was told that Well, this is actually spooky. My goodness, you know, this is like an a Russian doll or an one of an onion.
45:21Every layer you peel This is why >> a Russian doll and an onion?
45:26>> A Russian doll or an onion, where you peel the different layers. This is why even though we're covering this as part of an interview on the whole shebang, um >> It's a good word.
45:40>> This is why I've written a 100,000-word book about this case alone.
45:47>> Which book was that?
45:48>> Encounter in Rendlesham Forest, which I co-authored with Jim Penniston and John Burroughs, two of the the US Air Force witnesses.
45:56>> We'll put that link in the description, so people can check it out.
45:58>> Um I didn't mean to come on and do a book plug, but it's I'm I'm just trying to tell you how much information there is about this that just one of these cases I could write a a 100,000 word book on.
46:13>> And be able to do it with that without revealing classified information.
46:17>> Yes, I had to submit the the manuscript of that book both to the UK Ministry of Defense and to the Pentagon. So, to DOPR, to the what is it called? Defense Office of Prepublication and Security Review.
46:32>> had to do both?
46:33>> to do both. Again, because this was No, people like Lou Elizondo who who you know has his book coming out.
46:44At least he only has to do it in one country.
46:47>> I had to do it in both because this was um on British soil, but involved US military personnel and US military bases. So, I had to go to both the Ministry of Defense and to DOPR.
47:00>> Wow.
47:00>> Uh anyway, the the radioactivity levels turned out to be 6.66 Okay, on to infinity 666 times um higher than average background.
47:19Which for those >> Future humans playing some games with us.
47:22>> Well, future humans pretending to be demons by going with the whole 666 thing.
47:27>> Right.
47:27>> And of course, there are people who think that some aspects of the UFO phenomenon are demonic.
47:35I've come across that. Lou Elizondo has come across it. I remember him saying one time when he was trying to get his skeptical Pentagon bosses, they one of them said to him, "Son, go read your Bible."
47:46>> Yeah.
47:46>> And of course, a lot of those people with that mindset get that from the book of Ephesians, where they describe Satan in terms of being, {quote} the prince of the power of the air, {unquote}.
48:03>> Mhm.
48:04>> And that's one of a number of reasons why some people think that this is demonic or aspects of it are, and therefore they say you shouldn't study it because studying it feeds it and gives it energy, which you shouldn't do.
48:17>> God, it gets so weird.
48:18>> does.
48:19>> I've done There's been two podcasts that have covered this. I had Ryan James in here for episode 151.
48:25So, one thing that Lou Elizondo told me, and that he's told this to other people, and he said it in the show on Identified, one of the biggest things, surprisingly, that he ran into with opposition within the Pentagon or within the Defense Department to the [music] work that he was doing, is that there was a very large contingent of people that believed that this was [music] a demonic force, as in demons, and that we shouldn't be doing it. We shouldn't be investigating it. We shouldn't be poking the tiger in the eye.
48:50>> They thought the phenomenon [music] that was being witnessed was demons?
48:53>> Yes, within the military establishment, within the Pentagon, within DOD, there was a large number of people that opposed his work because they [music] thought from a very, very fundamentalist viewpoint they were dealing with demonic activity.
49:07>> [music] >> And he was talking about like he spent a lot of the last six, seven years really studying Lou Elizondo, sitting down with him for a very long interview, kind of got him to say a couple things that I'm sure Lou didn't really like saying.
49:26And Lou had told him all about that, and how there was there was like a a piece of the Pentagon that was hell-bent on that's what it is.
49:34>> Hell-bent, very good.
49:36>> [clears throat] >> exactly. I didn't even mean to do that, but that was pretty good. But then I had another guy in who comes at it from like a very different angle, this guy Dr.
49:43Hugh Ross.
49:45>> And so I was eating >> who's like he's one of those guys, extremely nice guy, smart physicist, the whole bit, but I think like his religion is kind of his science is built to kind of fill his religion. That was just my takeaway, but he does talk about the angelic versus demonic end of this and how his argument kind of hinges on one thing it seems like and that is because we don't have physical evidence that these things were here, like they don't leave behind physical evidence, that therefore it must be demonic. What would go against that argument there would be some of the eyewitness stuff though that you're
50:24speaking of in this case at Rendlesham as one example being there was a craft, it was it had hieroglyphics on it, whatever, it was touched by the person, but again, allegedly, cuz it's not like he chipped off a piece and kept it.
50:37>> Well, it is kind of scary, I guess, that the argument for some of this being demonic is that it doesn't seem physically tangible. And yet this one case where it was, we ended up with 6.6. Yeah, yeah, so that that's kind of And and again, does that tie in demons are notorious tricksters.
50:59Um almost every culture in human history has a trickster god.
51:06That you know, again, >> A joker.
51:07>> It is the cosmic joker >> Yeah.
51:10>> in in this context, but it's funny. It's ironic, I think, that sometimes the roadblock to serious scientific research into UAP within government isn't a hard-nosed skeptical faction who think it's all nonsense, but is a faction who think it's very real, but demonic.
51:34>> So they're afraid it's it's ironic to me that then they're afraid like that argument's kind of to me. Like, "Oh, well, we don't want to study it because we're giving it energy" or whatever. Wouldn't you want That's like saying, "Oh, we don't want to solve this murder case because if we're giving the murder and like that's >> Yeah, that's horse >> Know thine enemy, but but I don't know.
51:53These people are probably biblical scholars or think they are and they've probably delved into it in more detail and >> A lot of them probably aren't. They're probably just like religious and they think they're biblical scholars.
52:04>> Yes, that's a very good point. I think that's that's behind a lot of the the miss I I I don't know, missteps >> Yeah.
52:13>> we see here, but >> Did you encounter any of that?
52:15>> Yes, I did. Yes, absolutely.
52:17>> Cuz you referred to it with Lou. I wasn't sure if you said it 3 years ago or not.
52:20>> reason it resonated with me is that and I had this discussion with Lou is it turned out we'd both come up against the same thing.
52:28There is and and in the UK we one of the people who was something of a champion for serious UAP research was a retired five-star admiral a former chief of the defense staff and chairman of NATO military committee called Lord Hill-Norton. He was an admiral of the of the fleet, five-star admiral.
52:53Um he'd come up he'd served on destroyers, I think, in the the Second World War in some of the most difficult and dangerous theaters and and stayed in, got to the very top, retired, then got interested in UFOs. You know, why why couldn't he get interested when he was still in?
53:12>> Yeah, yes, yes.
53:13>> him up on the screen?
53:14>> I I briefed him on on a few occasions and he's gone.
53:19He's uh yeah, he uh he was a character and a half, but uh he uh he um and was was getting interested in this, but he fell under the influence of of a maverick priest called Paul Inglesby >> Mhm.
53:38>> who was of the view that UFOs were demonic and I thought this was extremely unhelpful because just as we'd found somebody who who could you know, open all the doors for us on this, he was in danger of being brought down this this kind of fundamentalist religious rabbit hole of of demonology.
54:04>> Was that priest Catholic or Protestant?
54:08>> I think he was Protestant, but you know what?
54:11Again, it's I say I I don't think he was mainstream. He was one of these Maybe he was one of these small I don't know.
54:21Sects or I I I don't know. I want to say he was Protestant, but I I am not 100% on that.
54:28>> That because when I hear stuff like that, that's where the tinfoil hat gets tingley a little bit because you wonder if there's some sort of I don't know, historical narrative known to few that they're like, "Oh, other people can't know about this, so we can't have them study this kind of stuff." I I don't know how realistic that is cuz that requires a lot of gatekeepers, I I would think, but makes you makes you wonder it a little bit.
54:54>> Yeah.
54:55I I don't I don't really have an opinion on that, but um to to finish up on Rendlesham, I'd say a couple of things. So so Colonel Holt gets to the landing site, um they take the radioactive radioactivity readings, and then they see the UFO themselves, uh not landed but through the trees, then up in the sky.
55:18They see it move around erratically.
55:21Colonel Holt says that at one point this thing fires a narrow beam of light down at the ground uh shortly in front of of him and his men, and reflecting on this in in later years, he's given a number of interviews where he said, you know, was was this a weapon? Was this a warning?
55:42Was this communication?
55:44What was it? And he doesn't know. And he he chooses his words carefully on this.
55:50He has once or twice, I think, articulated the the word extraterrestrial, but generally speaking, what he has said is, I don't know what it was, but whatever it was, it was under intelligent control.
56:07>> What does that mean?
56:08>> It It means there's a technology behind it. And he doesn't think it's ours because it seems, in terms of speed, maneuver, acceleration, capability, to to be way beyond the cutting edge of anything that we have at the time.
56:26>> Okay.
56:26>> Same sort of thing David Fravor says about the Tic Tac.
56:29>> Okay. All right. I was picturing that wrong for a second.
56:32>> Well, he says, I don't know Dave Fravor, of course, famously said, I don't know what it was, but I want to fly one.
56:37>> Yeah.
56:37>> So, and he says Colonel Halt talks about this object moving around rapidly in the sky uh as if it's performing a grid search.
56:49So, going back and forth.
56:51And then the very last thing that happens is it fires narrow beams of light down, not now at him, but back at the base.
57:02And subsequently, he was told some of the light beams penetrated the WSA, the weapon storage area. And may have had some sort of effect on the ordnance.
57:16>> On the what?
57:17>> The ordnance.
57:18>> The ordnance?
57:18>> The weapons.
57:20>> Oh, that's a term for weapons.
57:21>> That's a term for weapons.
57:23>> weapons better.
57:23>> Yeah.
57:24>> Yeah.
57:24>> Um of course, this story is debated publicly, and people say, well, what kind of weapons are they?
57:34And there has been speculation about that and some people have said well, those were nuclear weapons, weren't they?
57:42>> Ah, took the words out of my mouth.
57:44>> And my response to this by law has to be as follows.
57:51I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of nuclear weapons at those bases.
58:03So, there you are. Okay.
58:05But, you'll find a lot of people, some of whom were there, being a little bit more forthright about that.
58:15And there was a part of the weapon storage area which was nicknamed Hot Row.
58:23And people can do their own research and draw their own conclusions.
58:30>> That's something I have to admit I've never looked at. I Obviously, we've heard through various geopolitical events over the years and just an accounting of things about how, for example, the United States has military weapons, including nukes, that aren't necessarily stationed here.
58:49But, I never thought about if they would have it on like the UK soil or something. Like such a close powerful ally. I guess it makes a ton of sense.
58:58>> Well, I I think some parts of this may not be classified. I I don't think it is disputed that that during the Cold War, the UK had nuclear weapons in in Europe. I mean, there were big uh campaign for nuclear Well, there were big campaign for nuclear disarmament marches about um I believe uh cruise missiles at Greenham Common.
59:28>> Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help.
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