0:01I mean, I get I got I will never forget getting emails from parents who told who told me this was like a year ago whose kid went to a got a what he thought was just a weed joint and inside the weed joint and he went it was like from a public from a gas station that sell sold like the synthetic weed and then they analyzed it and it had dentinil in it.
0:21>> Oh, in a gas station.
0:23>> Even when you think this is is safe and you're buying it from rob reliable sources.
0:29>> Yeah. How about that 70 stuff too? Is that what it's called?
0:32>> Oh 78.
0:33>> 70 that they're selling in gas station.
0:36It's DMT, right? DM what is it called?
0:38It's like concentrated.
0:41Yeah, the syntheticum, right?
0:42>> Yes. Yeah. It's like a different all of it is supposedly not good for you. By the way, >> the 70 is like a hundred times more potent. So concentrated, right?
0:53Whatever.
0:53>> They call it gas station heroin.
0:55Exactly. Whatever it is, >> I've spoken to people addicted to it.
0:58>> All right. Right. grandmothers, by the way, because it's being bought at gas stations. They don't they don't think it's dangerous. Yeah.
1:04>> There's just something and and that's what I think >> because like also you're from Portugal and now I'm not the most caught up on like Portuguese politics and stuff, but I've heard in the winds that like they have full legalization. Yeah, they >> say, yeah, it's not legalization, it's decriminalized. So, if you're caught with up until a certain amount of drugs, if you're caught with 20 keys of cocaine, you're going to prison. But if you're caught up until a certain amount that you would have as as a user, they've got give you the option you can either go to prison or go to drug rehab.
1:33The vast majority of people choose drug rehab, which happens to be less expensive than housing you in prison. So the incarceration rates went down, uh, AIDS went down, drug addiction went down. It was actually huge success in Portugal. Other places have tried to replicate it. um you know, Oregon tried a similar thing, but what was what they failed at dramatically, I think, and why it didn't work there is because they didn't have the systems in place, the rehab facilities ready to go for people.
2:03So, you you get caught and then you have to wait several days because there's no room for you available yet. And when you pass a law like this, you really have to make sure that you are ready to go, right? Because people's lives are at risk here. And that w was from what I've uh read not the case in Oregon. So it's a pity because now people think that legal or decriminalization is not a good idea. And I'm not sure about that. I I I've spoken about this many times and whatever we're doing right now is not working. And so we have to come up with a completely different system. Portugal is a small country, 10 million people.
2:39We've seen it work really [snorts] well there. Um I know we're not as big obviously as US. It can be confu. It can get chaotic here perhaps, but I think we should try something because whatever we're doing is not working.
2:52>> Yeah, I'm I'm open-minded on some sort of wild different solution. I don't know if decriminalization across the board is the way to go. May maybe it would be someone could make a good argument to me. But I do know what we have right now doesn't work. And then cynically, you know what what what Heg says say we spent on Iran so far? 57 billion or I don't whatever it is it's a big number. It's like we can keep doing like this.
3:18>> Yeah.
3:19>> Okay. So, I was 37. Sorry, I was 20 off.
3:22You know, but then we don't have >> facilities for people to like try to make something work. Like at least try it. If it doesn't work, okay, but like know that you put an effort into it. If I if I try something, if I try to start running and show up the first day hung over after eating like, you know, a after after drinking a whole Diet Coke or something like that, I'm probably not going to run that well, right?
3:44>> So, but if I show up hydrated and and well slept, maybe like I'll stick with it. It's >> just human nature. But >> right, >> I do get so down on it when I see like we're supposed to in America, freedom and stuff, like we're supposed to lead the world in so many of these metrics and there's things like this with drug abuse where we're like the worst.
4:03>> Oh, the worst in the world. I mean, the worst. Like a million people have died in the past 25 years, more than in any war combined since the World War I. And I think constantly the idea is that these you know these drug addicts as we call them they're failing society when I do I think most people don't understand that we are actually failing them. This is a huge public health crisis that's happening in America. If it was a a regular disease, a physical disease, which it is by the way, but if it was like leprosy for example, and we'd see people on the streets of Ken Kensington like that, we wouldn't allow it, right?
4:40But because we believe that this is their choice and they're choosing to do this, which is false. Nobody chooses to be homeless and to have gigantic open wounds and to, you know, constantly having to be revived by Narcan. Nobody chooses this life.
4:54>> One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit
5:22that subscribe button if you haven't already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help. And you can join my newsletter via the link in the description. And and so unless until we realize that this is a public health crisis and and and and sort of treat it as that, we're never going to be able to solve this this problem. I I don't think we've been serious enough about it. And we're going after Yes, we're going after the cartels and El Chapo's sons and Elmo and all these people. And that's great and and we should but we should equally uh put as much money if not more into curing um
5:56curing the the source of the problem.
5:59>> I agree.
5:59>> And that is addiction.
6:00>> I agree. And I think there has to be a real concerted effort on it and also an understanding like you just said of people of of a level of compassion like hey someone else had a different life than me maybe one time >> they made a choice to do one thing and at a low moment or something like that and then it spiral into other stuff.
6:19That could be you too.
6:20>> What what's the old quote? We're all like 10 bad decisions away from being homeless or something.
6:25>> Yeah. And not only that, I mean it could be a bad decision. It could have been doctor prescribed which is so many cases a large percentage of people on the streets out there were prescribed by by doctors. So we don't know instead of judging them let's understand that it could be us at any moment. So we have to figure it out.
6:41>> This is perfect too cuz I had wanted to come back to this. You mentioned this earlier and how early you were on the opioid crisis in America which was a legalized cartel within our own borders that caused that. when you look at the Sacklers >> family >> and then obviously people across >> pharma who jumped in on this if you will but like >> making a documentary in 2008 I'm just thinking of the timeline in my head of when this started to explode quietly without like people sharing it all over the internet you know it wasn't that long before that and it didn't go mainstream of people realizing holy
7:16>> this is like a legalized problem until the 2010s so how did you >> I think you started to say this earlier but just like a full background. How >> what was the first time where you realized besides like seeing the people show up to theies in Florida and coming in like what made you realize it was completely widespread to do like a whole documentary on it? Was it just that or?
7:38>> Yeah, I mean started by just seeing the activity, the people from all over the country coming to these pain clinics in Florida. Then actually looking at the numbers and finding out that 90% 90 of the top 100 oxycottton prescribers were in Florida from the whole country. 90 of the top 100 prescribers in the whole country were in Florida.
7:59>> God damn it. Florida >> and seeing Oh my it's the it's it's heaven for journalists. I take my passport there. It's a different country.
8:08>> It's It's a crazy place. It's a My husband's favorite place on earth is Florida because he's a journalist like me. He's We've worked together on a lot of stories there, but it's Yeah. It's like a It's heaven for journalists because it's just every corner there's a story.
8:21>> Yeah.
8:21>> Where's the wind? All right. There's one.
8:23>> This is the best.
8:25>> Um Yeah. So, it was like starting to look at that and then and then um and then actually heading down there and it was remember walking into a pain clinic.
8:34I had a a secret camera on me, one of those button cameras. And uh my husband's in the car with a camera but filming me from inside the car. And I go into this pain clinic and I ask the receptionist. I tell her, "I have a little bit of back pain. Um could I see somebody and uh how easy is it to get prescribed Oxycottton?" And she said it like that.
8:56>> Oh yeah. Yeah. And she actually was the one who mentioned oxy what can I be prescribed? And she said, "Well, you have to go and do an MRI." uh which we have in the back of our pain clinic and uh and then you'll come back with it and then the doctor can prescribe you oxy.
9:11It was the the holy trinity in Florida at the time was oxy xanax and um a muscle relaxer. Um and uh and that's was sort of the the holy grail uh of of drugs. That's why all the people were coming. I mean, it was mainly the Oxycottton, but you mixed it with with the others. And and then interviewing a another we interviewed another mother, which uh she had two sons and she lost both sons to Oxycottton. And we went to her house and she showed us uh the pills that her son had been prescribed by one of these pain clinic doctors. And we're talking about, >> you know, 300, 400, 500 pills in boxes for a for for a one month supply of
9:52drugs for a kid who didn't have any physical conditions whatsoever, but had become addicted to drugs and and was it was do he was doctor shopping. So, he's going from pain clinic to pain clinic.
10:02>> He passed away and the other her the younger son was still alive and we filmed with him. kid called Todd and he should I mean he was he we he allowed us to film him as um he snorted um Oxycottton and this is all over our film like he behind his mother's back which was sort of a difficult decision for us but he was willing to show us how he does it how he procures it and then I think it was a year later he passed away as well >> so in the same documentary where you're talking to the mom >> yeah who's lost one son about one son the other son >> you have to adhere journalistic standards and not tell her about the
10:40fact that you're also >> We told her she knew that he was using drugs um and she was trying to keep him safe >> and we asked her if we could spend time with him alone and while we were spending time with him alone he took out a tin foil and was smoking in front of us and uh we later told her because he could die.
11:00>> Okay. So you did >> and then and then we actually screened it was one of the rare cases where we screened the documentary for her before it was released for her and Todd. So he still saw it while he was alive and then he died. Um but they saw the documentary cuz I wanted to make sure um you know that that she was okay with it because it was obviously about something very private.
11:22>> Here's the part I still don't understand. I can see some of these scammy clinics in like Florida or whatever. But >> I always think back to the third time I broke my wrist. I was in college. This is like 2013.
11:36>> And I had to get surgery. I went and get a metal plate and all that. So, I'm in pain or whatever.
11:42And the the college doctor >> gave me a prescription for Vicodin.
11:49>> I you not. It was three canisters of it. I never took a single one of them. Now, I'm gonna be honest. Whenever I've t I' I've had four surgeries before, whenever I've done those surgeries, there's like 48 hours afterwards where you take like whatever it's Vicodin usually. I think >> I always throw it away at 48 hours just to be safe for whatever reason, whatever that feeling is that people like. I don't like it.
12:12>> Yeah, I don't.
12:12>> But I could imagine that maybe other people do and then they get addicted. I think the stats have backed me up.
12:18>> But I remember looking at this and I never took it. I actually later I put it, funny story, I put it in my backpack, forgot about it, >> and so I went to fly to Florida 6 months later with my mom and we go to security >> and she's I had accidentally taken some bagel knives through security a couple years before, which was a funny story.
12:36So she's like, "Are there any surprises in your backpack?" I'm like, "No."
12:39>> And I go through I go through the backpack and I get to this pocket. I'm like >> and I reach in and it had they had all exploded open. So, it was a giant white powder and I had to go like in front of the security lady and like dump the white powder in the trash can. She's like shaking [snorts] around me. But anyway, I didn't take any of it. But I remember thinking about that. I'm like, why did he just give me 90 pills for a broken wrist? And why is why does that guy have a medical license? Like, [snorts] shouldn't there be some kind of onus on the doctor knowing what the they're subscribing or prescribing you?
13:10>> Yeah. And I I think the vast majority of doctors who overprescribe these pills, it was pain management. It's an it's a it's a sort of an expertise within itself. It's a it's like and a lot of these doctors that are treating pain aren't pain management experts. So, and you had the Sackler family, you had Purdue Farmer telling people that this was safe, right? And there were ads out there and they were pushing these on doctors and telling them that the biggest plague that Americans suffer is is suffering itself and we had to figure out is pain and we had to figure out how to deal with pain because American
13:45doctors weren't good at dealing with pain. And so they really pushed this idea and a lot of doctors um decided that it was the the the the doctorly thing to do um the right thing to do was to treat people and treat their pain.
14:00But there was also, as we all know, a lot of very very dirty doctors out there. Uh we interviewed a kid who was at the time doing the Oxy thing in in Florida and his doctor was a gynecologist and he was going to a gynecologist. He was a gynecologist and he was going to a gynecologist who an OB/GYN and she was the one who prescribed him um Oxycottton.
14:24>> Now, how does she have a medical license now? Yeah. How's that that makes no sense. I I not one single I don't think a single one of these doctors has seen a day in prison. Our our doc the one the Oxycottton Express actually focuses on this one pain clinic in South Florida called American Pain that was run by these two twins. My husband did a feature doc about about it called American Pain. It's on uh HBO. You should watch it. It's really good. But it was basically focused on these two twins who ran they used to have a a they used to sell illegal steroids basically.
14:55And then a friend of them told them, "What are you guys doing? you can be selling oxycottton and you're making much more money. So they set up these pain clinics all throughout South Florida and and we're making mill I mean they had $40 million or something like stash underneath the mother's mattress.
15:09It was like insane amounts. They were like going on helicopters having se sex with stripper. It was like crazy display of wealth. They were making so much money. And um and my husband and I had spent time in Kentucky filming this with a sheriff who were fi were f was finding these pill uh bottles next to dead bodies, overdose bodies that said American pain. So we knew this was a pain clinic once we went back to Florida. We really wanted to film outside this pain clinic. And we get there and we're on the other side of this sort of big road because we know that these guys are they're they're known to be sort of aggressive and not
15:46like cameras outside. Meanwhile, there's like two security guys outside, surveillance cameras, and as soon as we take out the camera, uh the car comes around, stops right next to us, two cars, and it's the twins. And they start um threatening us, and they say, "What the are you guys doing here? get the get the out of our our uh place. Get the cameras out of our face. What are you doing? Um and we're like, "Okay, it's time to go." And [snorts] we start driving out. And we had planned this so we could film right before we were supposed to fly out. So, we have a rental car and we're driving towards the airport down I 95
16:25and I start I realized that we're out of gas. I mean, we have like a tiny bit of gas left and they're following us down I95 and we stop at the gas station following us and we stop at a gas station and [snorts] and they stop right behind us and they get out of the car and they come right to our to the window >> and I'm at this point a little scared and I decide this is a terrible idea.
16:47So, I continued driving and uh and then on I95, uh we had we had um interviewed a sheriff someone from the sheriff's department the night before and I called her and I said, "Hey, we're being followed by the guys from American Pain." And she said, "Hung up the phone and call 911 right now. You do not want to mess with these guys." There was an active DEA and FBI investigation into these guys at the time. And >> what were their names?
17:11>> The George brothers.
17:12>> The George brothers. Give them a little love right now. Yeah.
17:17That was sarcasm people.
17:18>> Yeah. Um, yeah. And if you pull up American Pain, uh, which is my husband's documentary, you'll see them. I think they're >> So, when you did when you were making this though in 2007, 2008, it came out in 2008. So, you're making it in 2007.
17:32Is that fair to say?
17:33>> Yeah.
17:34>> How close to the holy grail did, you know, I'll read this first, then I'll ask. Chris and [clears throat] Jeff George are identical twin brothers who operated the largest network of illegal pill mill clinics in the United States from 2007 to 2010 based out of South Florida. They're cash only there. That's how you know they're cashonly clinics trafficked over 20 million doses of oxycodone fueling the American opioid crisis. Operating out of strip malls and former bank buildings, the George brothers created what they called the Disneyland of pain clinics, pulling in over $40 million in cash. They catered
18:10not just to local Floridaidians, but heavily to thousands of customers who traveled thousands of miles or rented buses from Appalachian states like Kentucky, Tennessee, and Ohio to get highly addictive pain pills. The operation required cash upfront, relied on corrupt doctors, and generated more than $500 million in pain pills. How long did they What was the sentences there, T? Just back to that page real quick. Sorry. Go down right there. Yeah.
18:35So, they were caught discovered $4.5 million in cash stashed in the attic of the twin's mother.
18:40>> Yeah. Okay. 4.5. They were making they made 500 million. Yeah.
18:44>> Okay. So, Christopher, the pill kingpin, plead guilty to racketeering conspiracy and served 11 years in prison. The brother was set free after serving roughly 13 years behind bars. So, they're both out now. But >> and you see it mentions their massive drug enterprise with extremely detail in the award-winning CNN documentary American Pain. That's and he interviewed and he interviewed both of them for the doc. And this is the funny story. So they're following us down on 85.
19:09>> I'm on the phone. The woman tells me call 911 right now. This is actually seriously dangerous. We call 911 and tell them we're being followed by these >> psychos gigant big looking guys uh threatening us. And and at as I'm on the phone with 911, uh our car runs out my the car runs out of gas and I veer off to the side and I just stop the car, but they have no idea what's happening. They didn't put two and two together that we had stopped at the gas station because we needed gas and we ran out of gas.
19:38They just thought, "What the are these people doing?" So they just stop behind us and they don't get out of the car because at this point they're trying to figure out what is happening here.
19:46And within like minutes actually police shows up and they come and they ask us questions and they ask them questions.
19:52They come up with an excuse that they thought I was a psycho ex-girlfriend, which is Obviously, I tell the police what had just happened. And then it turns out that during this time at this whole our whole uh filming, because I later also called them and got them on the phone and all of this made it into their trial, um the the tapes because the police was had a wire on them the whole time. Wow. So they they heard them talking about us, our investigation, this annoying journalists that were looking into their business. And then when they're in prison, my husband sends them a letter and he's saying he really
20:27wanted to do this documentary on the rise and fall of the twin brothers. And we discuss like should I say who I that I directed the Oxygotten Express or should I not? And he decides not to. And so he writes a letter, I think it was to um Chris, and Chris writes back and says um at the end says, "By the way, say say hi to your wife." I knew he knew full well who he was, but he said he agreed and he ended up doing the talk about these guys. And it's fascinating.
20:56>> Yeah. And and yeah, and none none of the the doctors did any time in prison and or um Yeah. Not not not enough time at least.
21:06>> Yeah. That's also crazy cuz it's just another thematic thing here in the 21st century where we've seen such a split of like you know elite members of society and everyone else and you I wouldn't call >> doctors living in the >> in the billionaire class or anything like that by any stretch. I don't want to exaggerate this, but when you see it take they're living well, they're rich.
21:32They're taking advantage of people taking advantage of they're breaking their oath of what they did >> and they're laughing about it and probably all strippers and doing whatever they do because they're scumbags. And yet then they get no justice. It's like it's a two-tiered kind of system because I know the dude that gets caught slinging on the corner >> with the wrong amount of kilos is doing 25 years on a Tuesday at 12:05 p.m. when the judge get backs from lunch and says, "All right, yeah, 24 and in and 7 months. All right, next case."
22:02>> It it I can understand. I I mean can understand I'm a part of the people that are just like, "What the fuck?" Like, "Why is this like this?"
22:09>> And the FBI actually did an amazing job in this case. I interviewed for the podcast on the hidden third, which I haven't descri explained at some point.
22:17I should explain what the hidden third means. Why I'm the hidden third expert.
22:20>> It's the illicit elicit underbelly of the world.
22:23>> It is. It's >> I love that name.
22:24>> Good. It's uh estimated that 35% of the global economy are black and gray markets. It's what economists call the hidden third and it's what I specialize in where I spend most of my time in and uh uh I on I think it was my f second episode of the hidden third podcast which is the podcast that I now do.
22:42>> Link down below.
22:43>> Yeah, exactly. Um >> we can also collab this too so people can can hit the you can literally hit next to the title and subscribe to Mariana's channel.
22:50>> That's great. Thanks Julina.
22:52>> Sure. Um and uh yeah, we interviewed Kurt McKenzie, who's the FBI agent in charge of the operation uh in Florida in Florida to bring these guys down. And he still talks about how the biggest frustration was not being able to get particularly one doctor that he really wanted to get who was responsible for a lot of deaths. And he, you [clears throat] know, they tried so hard through their investigation to prove that she knew um that she was responsible for these deaths and they were never able to get her [clears throat] um in prison. Well, >> that person's going to have to answer for it at some point themselves. They
23:26got to live with themselves. It's It's crazy.
23:28>> But all the way back when you did this, were you able to get all the way there to like the Sacklers or was it still a little too early to know the real full story there?
23:38>> So, at this point, it's I mean, we knew Purdue Pharma was a big thing and [clears throat] was a big part of this whole thing. Um, but our story was more on the Oxycottton Express. So it's more how the pain clinics are uh leading to overdoses and how it's all connected to Appalachia. So we actually followed the Oxycottton Express from one place to the other. We did actually talk about Purdue Pharma, but we weren't I mean we were exposing it. We weren't investigating. I mean it was an investigation, but it was more of an expose of this crazy situation that very few Americans knew about. And meanwhile, I think in Florida
24:14at the time, seven Americans a week were or a day, sorry, a day were already dying. let alone everybody outside of of the state. Um again, this was the early ages of the what became the opioid crisis, the biggest drug epidemic um in America's history. But um but then we did when I did my first fentinel story, we went after this one pharmaceutical company that was it was called Incis Pharmaceutical based in Arizona >> run by a guy called Kapor John Kapoor.
24:42>> Was this the titrations one where they made the song?
24:45>> Oh yeah, exactly.
24:48and saying they want people more people.
24:50And we got an amazing woman, a whistleblower, who agreed to talk to us to her own risk. and she explained exactly how she was the one who was supposed she was responsible for making phone calls to the insurance companies and lie to the insurance companies and tell them that the doctor uh prescribing pills to this woman that this patient was in fact had cancer when they didn't because they you know because it was um it you could only prescribe fentinel to termally ill cancer patients and um and so they lied consistently and these these medications were very expensive expensive this this fentinel that it was
25:27called subps >> and um and it was very expensive. So you had spray >> Yeah, it was a spray. Um and you had all these companies, these insurance companies basically paying out and people dying from these drugs and this was where the cartel came in. They were very smart and they realized, wait, they're abusing these drugs. They're having to go through hoops and loops or whatever the expression is. I up all my American expression [laughter] through hoops. Right. Through hoops.
25:53>> Yeah, you're reading through hoops. I was going to let either one go. It was fine [laughter] >> through hoops uh to get uh to get these drugs when we can be supplying them right here and putting them out on the streets for people to to use them without having to go to the doctor. And they were very smart. But this guy, John Kapoor, we started investigating us him.
26:10We reached out and told him we want to interview you or anyone in your company.
26:16And uh this was before obviously he was taken down. And he threatened us. I mean, he's he he sent us a cease and assist and said if our story came out, he would put all his resources into um suing the out of us and we we went ahead and and aired it. And uh a few years later u we actually tried to go to his house. He lives in a very a mansion in a gated community. We try to film outside his house and everything.
26:41>> And of course, he was he was the only pharmaceutical exec ever to spend time in prison. He's out now, I believe, but he did a few years in prison.
26:49>> You know what he said? who's going to throw all the lawyers at you and everything.
26:52>> Does you ever see the show The Wire?
26:54>> Yeah. My favorite.
26:55>> Okay. It's It's >> the best show ever made.
26:57>> I I always think I think it's number two behind The Sopranos. But I think >> the show is so good. It's like a documentary.
27:04>> It's because it's created by a journalist.
27:06>> Literally. Yeah. David Simon. Shout out David Simon. Would love to talk to you sometime, by the way. But, you know, there's a many great lines in that show, but one I it's probably come up five, six different times on the podcast is when Omar Little is testifying in the second season with the [clears throat] lawyer who represents all the drug kingpins and knows it.
27:24>> And the guy's like, "So, this is what you do, Mr. Little. You just run around and you shoot people you don't like."
27:30And he goes, "Just like you." And the guy goes, "What?" And he goes, "I got a shotgun. You got a briefcase." All in the game, though. And these guys like the capors of the world, they got lawyers with briefcases. They got money.
27:44They can throw the court system at you to you into 40 million hearings until you go away, >> right?
27:50>> And they look at the dude who walks down the street with two sakarios and an armed guard and doesn't speak a word of English and they look at them like below them. No, you're the same person. You are the same exact thing. One has a gun, the other has a courtroom. Sometimes they have both, by the way. And it's just this mental thing to where it even led to the family like the Sacklers. No one there went to jail. They had to pay like some record fine or whatever. They could afford that.
28:16>> But they still have wings named after them in some colleges I believe unless all that's been taken down now as it should. It's like >> I mean they still living free out you know and uh >> at the backs of so much suffering right so many and people have died in this country and the fact I think it was the daughter was recently quoted as saying something that she still doesn't see any responsibility whatsoever yeah one of the daughters um that I was reading about recently I mean not even admitting that they obviously played a gigantic role in the creation of this epidemic like it's um it's it's yeah
28:54it's horrible.
28:56>> Do you ever sit back, you know, go 30,000 ft in the air and just kind of look at it and say like start to take away the idea that like maybe some of this I don't know who or from where or how or even why, but like some of this is just kind of planned out. Like they it's not just the Sackler family really wanted to be rich. It was allowed to happen at so many different layers for so long to where the the you know the horse left the barn >> and you couldn't just put it back in and everything. Do you ever wonder if it's like on purpose for some reason some of these things?
29:31>> I don't I think it's money. It's all about money. It's all and it doesn't matter how you must matter if you have billions you want more billions and it's all about money and as a journalist you know when you're investigating these stories it's follow the money. It's the best way to get there. And the [clears throat] power of money is is really dangerous. Um, not only for the Sacklers, but I recently we did a story for the last season of Traffic which was about it's called Cartel USA and it's about five season five. Yeah.
30:00>> The presence of the cartel here in the United States, which we don't talk about often enough. and we like spoke to cartel members here and um spent time with law enforcement when they were investigating the cartel and actually went to a place in Georgia, really remote little town where there had been a horrific crime scene. This woman was um uh brought into this essentially Airbnb and this is how they found out.
30:25Um this woman that there's a cartel leader who believed she was a a Uber driver but a trafficker, a dealer on the side. she would traffic drugs for the cartel on the side as well as being an Uber driver. And this cartel leader believed she was stealing from him. Um, so they brought her into this house in the woods that happened to be an Airbnb and that happened to have cameras outside. So the owner of the Airbnb, meanwhile, gets notifications anytime anyone gets in and out. And so he was watching one of these videos and sees a woman being brought in in her arms like with her head covered. And he was like,
30:59"What what's happening?" So then, and he sees this actually a few weeks later after this has happened. Anyway, the cartel brings this woman in um and they torture her. They end up killing her using a chainsaw.
31:14>> They cut off her her fingers. It's just one of those horrific crimes. They clean every the crime scene off out really, really well.
31:22>> The police only finds out because the Airbnb guy sees the videos and sees what's happening here, contacts the police. The police heads there. They start looking into it. They see no evidence whatsoever. And then one of the police officers has this idea like, "Why don't we see what's under the drain?" So they take open the drain. They put that chemical that or the light or whatever it is that shows when there's blood there and there's massive amounts of blood and there's bones there and there's everything.
31:48>> So then they eventually arrest the people. But this is in small town Georgia, you know, in middle America in the least places that you'd think. So that got me thinking we should really do an investigation, figure out how massive is it, where they're oper operating from because it's not big city, it's actually small town America.
32:06How are they moving money and how violent are there? And how and what was surprising to me in that uh reporting was finding out the corruption side of it because we know they're you know that they're here. We know that there's drugs. We know that they're drug guns.
32:21We know that they're death. There's death. But I don't think we know enough about the corruption and how lot how they've sort of corrupted politicians and law enforcement all throughout the country. Um, so that's when when you talk about this big sort of idea that we're allowing this.
32:38>> I think it's it's more in terms of the corruption side of it, right? That we allow this because we're making or because law enforcement or politicians at some point are making money from this. It's not this big idea that we want people dead and it's it's more how much if I'm making money from this, >> I I'll turn a blind eye.
32:55>> Yeah. I always do think that there could be people though who see some of these other people operating and they know human nature. They know they just want money or whatever and they're like, "All right, we won't stop that.
33:06>> It's not the worst thing ever." You know what I mean? That and and that >> we'll never unfortunately cynically will never know the answer to that. But it's just >> I know part of it is we live in the internet age. So we have an unprecedented access to information around the world anecdotally and widespread regardless of what it is. And so we're aware of a lot more than we would have been 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago. But it does feel like, especially looking at it from the lens of America, we're living through such a chaotic moment at every level where there's just I don't know how to
33:40describe it, but almost like the way our civilization has been set up here is tearing at the seams in in different ways. Whether it be we're being ravaged by drug crisis, whether it be, you know, the average American, 50 almost 50% of people don't have $500 or or more in their savings account, you know, or obviously political unrest, wars happening all over the world that, you know, somehow could be interconnected as well. It's like, you know, I'm an optimist, but I look at this sometimes and I'm like, this is this is a bit of a, you know, kettle waiting to explode here. And I I really hope like the world's going to be a
34:22better place for my kids when when I have them, you know? Do do you worry about that sometimes? Like, ah maybe this experiment's going the wrong way.
34:30>> I'm an optimist, too. And I keep thinking about like we are far better now than we were as you know better living conditions than we were decades ago, right? Less people are dying at birth. There are more women rights. There are more um you know in general we're pulling people more out of poverty. Inequality [clears throat] is still massive in the world. Don't get me wrong, I know that. But I think in general we're better off than we were let's say 50 100 years ago. I mean we talk about uh again voting rights and civil liberties and you know I I think we're going in the right direction. What
35:11worries mo me most nowadays is politics and the division that exists in where everything has become politicized >> and again where there is just no space for nuance and difference of opinion >> and once you have this division and you can't get people to agree on easy things simple things like uh you know we better schooling better infrastructure and how are we going to fight fentinis like easy things, right? I mean, not easy, but things that we should all agree upon.
35:45When we can't get people that are supposed to be in power for this to sit down across from each other and try to make America better, that's that's what really really worries me >> and and it's it's I I see it's getting worse and worse. I mean, >> you know, I I go on podcasts like yours and you know, I I'm a journalist, so I always try it's part of what I do, even as a human being. I always try to see all sides and try to understand and give people understand the why people decide to do what they do or they think how they think. So that's very part of a lot part of what I do. But there are some
36:21issues that I'm more passionate about that I really have strong opinions on.
36:26Um and as soon as I disclose those opinions, >> it is it's like, you know, I received death threats. It's I will Oh yeah, I've received death threats. I've said like you um you you should be dead or you should go back. You're a and you should go back to your country. I mean name calling all of it and um and yeah and that's that's um um that's where it gets I think >> uh really dangerous. Um >> I agree.
36:52>> Yeah. That division and that hate >> and uh not allowing Yeah. for for conversation and debate um and understanding of why does a person think the way they do and let's try to unpack this and see if we can get to some sort of understanding um yeah and I think that unfortunately our politicians are heavily um responsible for this level of >> I agree and they're motivated to keep that going because it's also what keeps them in business >> you know and you're right it's it's like I do love that free speech has a bigger public square than ever. But there's, you know, it it can be painful sometimes
37:30because one of the unprecedented things in history obviously we deal with now and you're alluding to it right there is that people can sign up behind faceless accounts online, whether it be an email or Twitter account or whatever and >> horrible, >> no consequences.
37:43>> I'm sure you get this as well.
37:45>> Sure. I was actually just talking with with a friend of mine today who just got he had to like he literally had like a couple death threats for something he said on some other show >> and I'm just like what are we doing here? Like he didn't even say anything bad or anything like that. It's just people, >> you know, I think people are pissed off at so many things that like they have to find their blood sport.
38:05>> Yeah.
38:05>> And I think they've made their blood sport the politics. I also think though like, you know, I could listen to some of the economic plans that like Hassan has cuz he's he's literally he's a self-described like socialist and be like, "Yeah, I I don't think that works as well at all." In fact, I think it's been proven over and over again. But I think his right to say that loudly and proudly in the public square so that it can be hashed out in debate >> supersedes everything course. And there's just not enough people right now, I think, that that think that way.
38:40And something about us being at the 250th, right, at the moment is kind of symbolic, too, because that is one, the founders didn't all agree on everything.
38:48Like, they had some massive fights, but like this is one thing most of them, they foresaw this like, hey, you got to let it air out.
38:56>> Yeah.
38:57>> And I don't know, it seems like a good moment to maybe take a lesson from that.
39:01For sure.
39:01>> Yeah. I agree. I'll give you an example.
39:03um of the kind of hate. I mean, you know this better than anyone, but >> I had a guest on the podcast, a guy who um a big fan of the show, reached out to me, had never been on a podcast before, but reached out to me with a story about trafficking marijuana. That was okay.
39:19But then while talking to him before the podcast, he told me how his 12-year-old daughter had been groomed by a man online and uh he'd found the phone that she was not supposed to have. He didn't allow her to have a phone. She was 12 years old. But he found a phone. Walks into a room one day. She's taking nude photos of herself.
39:39>> That whole story, right? She was 12 years old. And um and then he goes and becomes obviously obsessed, takes the phone away from her >> and starts communicating with the predator as if he's the daughter and wants to meet him face to face. And he researched the law and tried to figure out what am I going to do and wants to do sort of a citizen's arrest. So he calls his best friend and they're going to go there and meet have a meeting with this guy, pretend it's the daughter going to meet him and do a citizen's arrest, call the police and have him arrested. and he's [snorts] telling me all this story and then which is um you
40:14know a good story at the level of what he had to go through >> and and he says that after he obviously became so involved in fighting predators that he joined some of these YouTube groups that are you know to catch a predator type groups right >> and in my discussion with him I was saying um how I find some of these groups out there doing great work necessary I am not the type the journalism that I do, the work that I do is never I don't like gotcha journalism. I don't go, you know, I spend months or years trying to get people to open up with to me. Um, like I said, I'm not trying to get one particular if I can expose the problem
40:56and the broken system. To me, it's much more impactful than going after this one guy. Um, of course there's a line. if there's human harm or animal harm being done, I will obviously call the police.
41:07But um generally, you know, I'm exposing the problem and and and so I what I was explaining to him was that some of these groups have grown so fast and and many of them are doing it for clicks because you and they're being sponsored like they're getting paid money to then get these people who might or might not be predators. For sure, a ton of them, maybe the majority of them are is are.
41:35But that's why we have law enforcement and that what why we have a system of law that is supposed to deal with them.
41:41And are they perfect? No. Are they doing a good job? Not even. Because unfortunately, even the predator that this father that abused this father's daughter, 12-year-old daughter, ended up doing less than a year in prison. And and and that shall not be the case. But I was showing how these groups can also have a negative impact and and how they can be dangerous and particularly talking about this one case of this guy who wanted to be internet famous and decided he was going to go out there and and went into this man's house who he had who was supposedly a predator and beat the crap out of this man and hit
42:18him >> repeatedly and he ended up in the hospital. And again, there hasn't been due process in this case. We have no idea if he is in fact. I mean, there was a there's a reason why we need evidence, actual evidence.
42:30>> That's right.
42:30>> And so that's all that's all I was saying. I was called a predator. They said, "Check her computer right now.
42:37She's a predator lover." Uh I mean, all all of it. Like I got so much hate. And this wasn't just one or two comments. It was the vast majority of the comments that I got on the clips that we put out for that episode were were were like that. That's because people don't listen to the context of what you're saying.
42:56You are not saying what they're accusing you of at all. In fact, I'll join you in getting hate right now. I love the work that like a Chris Hansen has done. I've had him sitting in that chair since they did this at the beginning. Like there is a whole process they go through to do this correctly and bring in law enforcement and catch real predators.
43:17And you are 100% right that yes, while there are other YouTubers and stuff who are doing those things and doing it like on the internet now and doing it well and those guys should be commended, there are other ones who are just jumping in on it to try to get the quick clicks and like yes, let me just throw out random numbers. Maybe five out of 10 times they do it, they're getting a full-blown actual predator and like great, but then what if they up because they're not doing any of the leg work and then they beat up innocent people or something like that?
43:48>> You know, no. We know this has happened.
43:50>> We know it's happened. And you're not saying like, hey, you know, let's get one of the guys who's guilty off. You're saying like do it the right way. And so, yeah, like people, you got to >> Yeah, I know. You have to just >> you got to let people you got to let people ex like you explain things and we don't do that on the internet.
44:08Everything's out of context. We all the time >> like all the time we will have a clip that we go to make from a podcast that was 3 hours long >> and I'll look at it and this is like my bread and butter. It's the reason my show exists. Like I've just done more edits of that than I can ever remember. And I'll look at a clip that Danny Gonzalez, our our editor, and I will put together and I'll say, you know, Danny, this is a great clip. This would do a couple million and, you know, grow the account or whatever. I'm like, but it's out of context. We can't do it.
44:38>> Good job.
44:39>> And and it happens all the time. And then sometimes you miss one and you're like, man. They even took that one out of context. But like, >> I've always tried to be conscious of that. You can't be perfect. But >> it's sad. You have to be because people will just either depending on what it is either the best version of what you're saying or the worst version of what you're saying.
45:00>> Frankly, the truth is in here. It's just like, you know, what's what's the context of what you're saying? But that's >> that's crazy. You can't >> Yeah.
45:08>> You know, you can't let that bother you.
45:10You're handling that the right way. But that's nuts. 12 years old.
45:14>> Yeah. 12 years old.
45:15>> She was being I mean, I'm, you know, sadly I'm not surprised, but >> he's actually a great guy. You should have him on on your podcast. He has a fascinating story, but then sort of the way he handled it all and how open he is about his own failures. Um, how he feels he failed his daughter and not only he failed his daughter that allowed this to happen, which he feels even though obviously he's not even responsible for it. I mean, it was obviously was out of his control, but how he felt he dealt with it once it happened and how he was angry at her instead of >> trying to again understand and be an
45:45actual father and an example of understanding instead of of um you know, blaming her, >> right? Of course, >> his whole he was so open uh and yeah, he's very in touch with his this feelings and emotions. He was a great guy.
45:59>> Yeah, I'd love to check that out. I'm I'm sure there's a lot of people on your guest list. I'd be like, "Yeah, let's talk to them." But same, >> you know, absolutely. Which, by the way, if there's people you want to talk to, 100% we'll we'll hook that up. But, >> you know, [sighs and gasps] it also goes back to like even the reaction like as a father with that, too. I'm sure you're familiar with the Kane Velasquez story, >> the UFC guy.
46:20>> Uh, no, tell me that's not it. probably this was like maybe four or five years ago now, but Kane Velasquez, famous fighter, >> found out I believe it was his son was being abused by at the daycare they were leaving him at by I want to say it's been a while, but I want to say it was the son of the owner of the daycare who was, you know, like a 35year-old guy and they found out, you know, >> he was doing that. And you know, to quote Dana White at the time who said this, he said, "You know, a lot of us, myself included, always say, "If someone ever did blank to my kid, I would >> blank." And he goes, "Well, Kane did
46:58that cuz Kane got in the car and chased the guy down." And >> well, he wasn't a good shot, luckily for him, I guess. But he he missed, but he tried to. And in all in all seriousness though, I looked at that and I'm like, he did the thing that every father says they would do.
47:15>> And I I understand like you're not supposed to take the law on your own hands, but then he, you know, he ended up serving a year in prison or something like that. But I'm like, man, I'm not a father yet, but if that were my kid, I like of course that would be my inclination to go do that. And >> do you know what was amazing that this father told me and why I met I talk when I say he was so in tune. He's very smart man.
47:37He said the first thought he had was, "I'm going to go and kill this guy."
47:41>> But the second thought was, "If I kill the guy, I'll end up in prison and I will no longer be able to be a father to my 12-year-old daughter like I need to."
47:50>> And and he he said something that I um you know, there's I'm sure you have those too like these co quotes in these interviews, episodes that stay with you, right? for for me his was >> violence is a um a young person's a young man's uh response to an adult problem and uh and and he realized that it was not the way he wanted to go about it. He wanted to see this man in prison for the rest of his life. That unfortunately did not happen.
48:20>> Violence is a young man's response >> response to an adult problem. It was something like that. Um >> good for him. I butcher other people's sayings as much as I >> No, but [laughter] that was really Yeah.
48:30If if it was somehow better than that, then he was really spitting because that's good.
48:34>> It's It's hard though. It's hard. You know, one of the quotes, I say this all the time, but like >> people love throwing around the whole phrase, "If I were blank, then I would blank about the most serious types of things."
48:49>> And you don't know. You don't know how you respond.
48:53>> You really don't >> until you're in those situations. Yeah, the house is on fire. I'd totally go up to the second floor if the dog was in there. Then the house catches on fire and you're standing out there frozen.
49:02>> You have no idea, >> you know, but that's the thing like with Kane, you could say like, "All right, you know, it was a reactionary kind of thing, but like he found out about it and and he got in his car and he went for it." And >> you know, he's he's he's hailed online as as a hero in a lot of ways. And [sighs] emotionally like I feel that, you know, I I I would have liked to think if I was his friend, I would have calmed him down and said, "Hold on, we're going to do this the right way." Or whatever. But I don't know that anyone was there. I think he kind of found out about it and got in the car,
49:33>> right?
49:33>> You know, it's it's it's one of those strange things. But I think we've also seen, you know, you've covered human trafficking throughout your career.
49:40You've literally had a show called that.
49:41But, you know, I think there's been more than ever an understanding in this country of just how widespread the problem is here.
49:52>> Mhm. Oh my. Yeah.
49:53>> We're like what? My friend Katarina Sultz was telling me we're like the largest America has >> there more there's more sex trafficking here in America. Like um more women Americans are sex tra we think of sex trafficking we think international. We think that maybe it's like foreign women being brought in or this happens in other countries, but it's actually here.
50:12Right here. Yeah, I've covered this extensively. Sex trafficking extensively. Yeah. Um, >> yeah. If I remember correctly, I've had Cat on my show a bunch. I'm pretty sure the first episode she was ever in here, she said you were a huge influence of her. I hope I'm right about that, but I'm pretty sure she said that.
50:28>> Thank you.
50:28>> She's like 24 or 25. She's been on the ground in Mexico for four years. Does insane stories.
50:34>> That's great. A story she did last year that she got so much for when she reported it and then she was 100% right >> was she broke the story about the CJNG >> replacing [clears throat] some of their income losses with the border being a little tighter >> by kidnapping young pregnant women [clears throat] >> 16 17 18 19 years old taking them to trap houses performing illegal C-sections leaving them on the side of the road to die and then taking the babies and selling them across border And everyone's like, "She's full of She has no idea what she's talking about." Two weeks later, La Diaba was
51:11arrested for this very thing. She was that was the name of the woman.
51:14>> Oh, wow.
51:14>> CJNG. But like again, the part of the story that I feel like people continue to ignore is like >> whatever the final >> product was, whether it was a live child that they were trafficking or >> a dead child they're trafficking cuz they killed them, it was being bought in America, >> right?
51:32>> Like we have to look in the mirror. Oh my. Yeah. I mean, the biggest problem for Mexico is that they are neighbors with the biggest consumers in the world, right, of drugs in this case or >> in that case. Yeah. I I've never heard about that, but that's that's crazy.
51:48Yeah, >> that's I I know one thing I know CJNG was replacing um the drug money, fentinel money, with was scams. They they got really into the scam business, scamming Americans. Yeah. Really big.
52:01>> I don't think we've talked about this.
52:03What happened?
52:04>> Um they they realized that they there's a massive uh there's a lot of money you can make from they were I mean all sorts of scams as you know now we're living in the age of scams like uh I think it's Warren Buffett who says that scam and fraud are the fastest growing um business in the world and uh that's where we should all be putting our money on because that it is it's crazy. It's like fast getting to the levels of drug trafficking in terms of profits. Um, and I've reported extensively on this, but the one that CGNG was getting involved in, the type of scam was the >> the time share scams.
52:41>> Oh my god.
52:41>> You've heard about these. That's that was a lot of it was CGNG.
52:45>> Really?
52:45>> Yeah. They had And they were working with a lot of Americans um, you know, who spoke obviously English fluently, living here or living in Mexico. And, uh, and I I got contacted so much. I got tons of messages from people. I even got contacted by a kid who worked inside because he thought he was going to get a legal job and then realized he was paid to scam people and he left and uh he was trying to figure out a way to get me inside. It didn't work out that the time, but yeah, it's insane. And yeah, it's they call many times older Americans who either own time shares and tell them that they want out of their
53:21time share. I'm going to buy your time share for this amount, but in order for me to pay you that, you have to pay a small fee first. And then you pay $10,000, let's say, and then you need to pay the Mexican taxes. So that's $10,000 more. And you know, suddenly you're $150,000 out. And you're still want to believe that there's somebody on the other side of the line that is eventually going to buy your time share or they sell you one entirely fake time share. So it's like the double side of it.
53:49>> It's it's crazy. so many creative for this so they find a way.
53:54>> Yeah. So my my I wanted to tell you about this my latest uh story for Nigio which is not trafficked because we're not doing that anymore is um >> So you have your own company and you're working the production company goes in and makes content for Nigio still.
54:07>> Exactly. We're a production company. We do series and documentaries. [snorts] >> Uh we're also started starting to do work in the scripted world as well. But um we pitched them I pitched them a story last year um that they really liked and so it's going to where we filmed it and it's airing in September.
54:23It's called Super Scam Me and it's uh where I say yes to every single scam that comes my way. Every email, every phone call, we create a persona for me called Mary Zil. It's an older a little older version of myself. We did a whole makeover like brown long hair.
54:40We filmed everything >> and we put photos of me all throughout social media and we created a fake person basically, Mary on dating websites and everything and um and I start connecting with scammers either from you know people were texting or emailing but eventually also I start having a romantic relationship with one uh fourstar general in Syria, American four-star general in Syria. That's who he said he was. And it is the wildest journalistic experiment of my life. It was >> so catfishing and scamming all at once on both ends.
55:15>> It was so good. It was It was wild. It was wild. It was so good. It's coming out in September and I'm so excited.
55:21>> When you once they put everything on for the first time and you saw yourself in the mirror, did you believe it? Were you like, "This will pass."
55:27>> Uh you you know, I actually thought I looked too much like myself, but everybody else around me said I looked totally different. Um, so I guess it passed. Nobody I was never recognized.
55:37>> Yeah, >> I we actually debated putting my real face, but obviously we were afraid they would realize you just you do a photo search and you realize I'm a journalist.
55:45>> Um, but it just meant that everywhere I went for several months, I just had to have the >> the whole disguise with me the whole time. I was filming everything. I was in the car. I was I had I at one point I was talking to three Brad Pitts, two George Clooney, several Caner Reeves. It was the best. I was getting videos from uh Brad George Clooney saying good morning Mary Zel the love of my life.
56:09>> Oh my god. [laughter] >> Oh we are so Was it AI? I like totally AI.
56:15>> Was it the real guy? I wish it was.
56:17>> Yeah. But like when I say was it AI?
56:20Like >> could you tell to the naked eye it was completely?
56:24>> Some were really good and and we explore that in the dock. I mean we show it all and some of it wasn't very good. Um, but some of it was really good and it's only getting better and that's the problem.
56:32>> Yeah.
56:33>> Yeah. It's uh it's really it's a really scary world out there when it comes to scams. It's it's only going to get worse. And I I've become sort of a 911 call for people who have been scammed around the country just because I've reported so much on it. And so weekly I get messages from people. Um, I actually just went I can't I can't say this because it will spoil the end of the film, but one of the characters in Super Scam Me as a woman who thought she was talking to a celebrity for the longest time and gave was about to lose her house, gave her all her money.
57:06>> Oh.
57:06>> To this celebrity. [snorts] Um, >> and I can't say, but there's a great twist at the end related to this.
57:13>> So, we'll have to tune in on that.
57:14>> Yep. That's good. What what made you So you grew up in Portugal your whole childhood. When did you come to America for the first time?
57:21>> I went to Columbia University's journalism school in uh 2001.
57:25>> How old were you?
57:25>> 911.
57:27>> I was 24 25 just turned 25.
57:30>> So you spent the [clears throat] first 25 years of your life effectively in Portugal.
57:34>> I did but I started I did college in Portugal and I started applying to grad school to journalism column university um as soon as I got out of university. I didn't get in the first year. I didn't get in the second year. The third year, I flew to New York and I knocked on the dean's door and I introduced myself and I told him why I wanted to be a journalist and that year I was accepted.
57:53So that cool that taught me sort of my first first big lesson, determination, persistence, all the things you need as a journalist and I think as a human being in general.
58:01>> And then I was there a month into my program in 911 happened and I was the only Portuguese journalist in Manhattan at the time. So, I ended up doing the all the live reporting for the biggest Portuguese television station. Um, >> where were you?
58:15>> Midtown. They sent me to the rooftop of this Midtown building. I was surrounded by international journalists, correspondents, many of whom were my heroes that I'd watched growing up on television, you know, >> and I was very inexperienced. I'd never done a live story in my life.
58:29>> Wait, how did you get Hold on a minute.
58:30You're one You're one month into your program as a student.
58:33>> Mhm. And I get a call in the morning when 9/11 happened. The Twin Towers had just fallen. I was fast asleep because I'd been working really hard on an assignment the night before and my phone, both my cell phone and my landline start ringing and I'm ignoring both and eventually I can't. So I pick up the phone and the first person that calls me is my television station that I had worked at in Portugal.
58:55>> Okay.
58:55>> Because I because I wasn't accepted to grad school. Yeah, I was working there.
59:00>> Um I was working at a travel channel show by the way. Um, I was going to places like the Maldes and asking honeymooners if this was their idea of paradise, which was so embarrassing.
59:10>> You've come a long way [laughter] since then. I have >> like here on [snorts] your sandals vacation. How's it going?
59:16>> Exactly. So embarrassing. Um, and uh, yeah. So then uh, they called me and they said, "Hey, we have no one in Manhattan. I know you don't really know how to do this, but we need you to go to Midtown to this building and do the live coverage." On the other line, I had my mom crying and yelling and begging for me not to leave the house.
59:35>> Where did you live in Manhattan? Were you up by Columbia?
59:37>> I was at 76 and Broadway.
59:40>> Okay. So, up there a little bit, but like you could look out your window and see the smoke and everything at that point.
59:46>> Couldn't see the smoke cuz I wasn't that high up. I was in a tiny little studio, but uh but I could I turned on the TV immediately and saw I think I turned on the TV the second era had just collapsed. Um, and uh, yeah, my mom's begging me not to leave the house, and I'm explaining to her that I have to, and I get there as fast as I can. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And
60:17finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
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