0:01I'm in I'm asking him for a favor. I emailed him yesterday and I'm asking him for a favor. So, we'll see. Actually, I'm going to see if he's responded to >> like a little little pardon type favor maybe.
0:11>> Yeah.
0:12>> Little something.
0:12>> Little little something.
0:13>> There's not a payment to Giuliani involved with this.
0:16>> [ __ ] Giuliani. That's another thing we can talk about.
0:18>> What What did he do to you? Let's take that tangent.
0:21>> [ __ ] Giuliani.
0:22>> [ __ ] talk about this guy's an arch criminal >> and and I think you're probably right about I'm going to make a prediction.
0:29Rudy Giuliani dies in prison.
0:31>> That's my prediction.
0:33>> I don't know that you'll be wrong about that.
0:36>> So, you know, I have been actively seeking a pardon from before I even left for prison. I was convicted in 2012 of violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1981. It's an incredibly obscure >> uh law. I'm one of only two people ever been that's ever been convicted of it.
0:56And the other person was actually a spy for the government of Ghana. Right. So the guy that wrote the >> half those >> imagine, [laughter] imagine.
1:07>> Shots fired.
1:08>> She was she was screwing the uh she was screwing a a a Ganaan uh intelligence officer.
1:15>> Oh.
1:16>> And she gave him the names of all the CIA uh spies in Ghana.
1:20>> Oh, >> yeah.
1:21>> Nice of her.
1:22>> Yeah. She got she got far less time than I did. She got eight months. I got 23.
1:29>> And I never did anything like that.
1:30Right. The guy that wrote the law that I was convicted of violating, Morton Halpern, former assistant secretary of state, assistant secretary of defense, and senior director of the National Security Council, um Mort wrote a letter to President Obama saying that this is not why he wrote the law and that I should never have been charged in the first place.
1:49So, I've asked several important people, >> and we'll come back to that story later, by the way. I want to let people out there know. I just don't want you to get off this.
2:01>> Several important people to uh, you know, put in a word or sign a letter.
2:05I've had some success this year.
2:07>> Uh, that's an ongoing process. But anyway, at the uh during the Trump years, a friend of mine said, a Republican friend of mine said, "Oh, you should talk to Rudy Giuliani. Rudy's got the president's ear. If anybody can get you a pardon, it's Rudy. Do you have a path to Rudy?" And I said, "I might."
2:28Um, the former New York, what was he?
2:30The police commissioner, >> Bernie Car.
2:33>> Yeah, I think that was what his position was. When I first got out of prison, he emailed me and he said, "Hey, um, I think you and I should go to college campuses and do a like a speaking tour together." I said, "Hey, that's a great idea." Nothing ever came of it, but it was nice of him to reach out.
2:49>> So, I I emailed him. I said, "Bernie, I know that you're still in touch with uh with Giuliani, and I'd like to apply for a pardon uh from Trump. Can you put me in touch with him?" So, he says, "Yeah, I'll put you in touch with this guy." So he [snorts] puts me in touch with Rudy's guy.
3:07>> His guy.
3:08>> Yeah. And I I email him. The guy calls me. He says, "Actually, we're going to be in Washington next week. Why don't we meet at the Trump Hotel uh on Tuesday?"
3:17And I said, "Okay." I get off at 2. How about if we meet at 2:30? And he said, "Actually," he says, "Rudy is not very good by 2:00." And he makes this motion.
3:30>> Yeah.
3:32>> And I said, >> "I can't believe I'm surprised by that."
3:34>> Yeah. I was like, "Oh, okay." He says, "It's going to have to be earlier. Let's call it 11."
3:40And I was like, "Oh." So, I took the day off, right? So, my attorney and I, my attorney is also one of my best friends in the world. He used to be the deputy attorney general under Reagan.
3:52>> What's his name?
3:52>> Bruce Fine.
3:53>> Shout out Bruce.
3:54>> Shout out to Bruce. Harvard Law, Berkeley, deputy attorney general, general counsel of the Federal Communications Commission. And the guy's done everything. He's an awesome guy.
4:05So Bruce and I go to the Trump Hotel and and this is 2018.
4:14>> 20 Yeah. 2018.
4:18And I had hired Bruce introduced me to a to a Republican lobbyist who had run the 2016 Trump campaign in Florida. So, I hired her and I go to I go to see Rudy and it's Rudy and and his guy and then some other hanger on that I I don't I don't even know who it was.
4:35And we're sitting there, you know, thanks for seeing me. Nice to meet you.
4:40So, we're sitting there and he Rudy's like, "Uh, oh, the weather's great today in DC." It's like, yeah, yeah, it's really nice.
4:50How about those Mets? It's like, yeah, great. I'm a Pirates fan, but the Mets are really good this year. And I'm thinking, what the [ __ ] is he doing?
4:58[laughter] So I said, "Mr. Mayor."
5:02>> Oh, M. You hit him with Mr. Mayor.
5:04>> You have to, right?
5:05>> I said, "Mr. Mayor, there's this issue of a pardon?" And he says, he goes like this. "Anybody know where the pisser is?" And he stands up AND HE WALKS AWAY.
5:16[laughter] And I said to the guy, "What just happened?" And he says, "You never talk about a pardon to Rudy. You talk about me. You talk to me. And I talk to Rudy.
5:26>> Oh my god.
5:27>> And I'm like, "All right, all right."
5:28And the guy says, "Rudy's gonna want $2 million."
5:31>> Isn't this illegal?
5:33>> Absolutely. This is a felony.
5:36Absolutely.
5:38Yes. So I go, "$2 million?" And I laughed. I go, "Look, first of all, I don't have $2 million. I will never have $2 million. Secondly, why in the world would I spend $2 million to recoup a $700,000 pension? One of, if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via
6:12the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already.
6:23I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help. And you can join my newsletter via the link in the description.
6:29>> So, John Kuryaku answer ever. [laughter] >> So, I said, "I'm sorry for wasting your time." And Bruce and I got up and we walked out.
6:37>> What did Bruce say to this? I mean, that's >> as we were walking out, Bruce just said, "Criminals.
6:42Criminals." Well, that night I was invited to a book launch at the uh at the Republican National Committee. Buddy of mine had written a book. The Republicans love him. So, I went and there was another whistleblower there.
6:54Uh Robert Mlan, who's an awesome guy.
6:57Bob is a TSA whistleblower.
7:00>> He's got TSA whistleblower.
7:01>> Yeah. And he's a serious serious whistleblower.
7:04>> Someone wasn't wearing their shoes, right?
7:06>> No, he this guy has sued TSA a million times and he's won a million times.
7:11>> What's the story there? Like what's it what did he blow the whistle on?
7:14>> They were lying to us about air marshals being on the planes. There were no air marshals on the planes. And then you know those super fortified doors so you can't get into the cockpit. They were fake. There was nothing to those doors.
7:28[laughter] You don't know why we're reacting like this.
7:32>> God.
7:32>> Wait, wait, wait a minute. [laughter] Wait a minute. in there.
7:38[laughter] >> That's actually >> Please do expand on that. He actually designed a truly impenetrable door, got a patent on it, and TSA fired him.
7:53And then when the judge ordered them to reinstate him, they put him in a basement office with no windows and nothing to do. He played video games all day. So he sued him again and again and again and he keeps winning.
8:06>> What years is this?
8:07>> Oh, this is it's ongoing. He still has suits pending.
8:09>> Oh my god.
8:10>> Yeah. Robert Mlan. He's an awesome guy.
8:12You should talk to him.
8:13>> All right. We don't cut things around here. We do it. Honestly, you have no idea why this is happening right now.
8:18>> So, I run into Bob.
8:19>> Hold on. I got to cut you off, John.
8:21This has nothing to do with you. But, um, >> do you believe this?
8:26>> Then we got to write up an issue of policy.
8:28>> Yeah. No, I I I I listen I we had a podcast number 167 no 168 with Ashton Forbes where there was there were a lot of different arguments in there and ended up creating a whole internet controversy and everything and one of his claims about 42 minutes into that podcast was >> that quote he could get through he said I've sat in a lot of planes before I've seen that cockpit door I could get through that No problem. Cuz he's an investigator for the MH370 disappearance.
9:02>> Oh, sure.
9:03>> And so we had evidence that showed that these doors were [ __ ] plutonium and you can't get through them. And you are now telling me that even if they said that was the case, that's not necessarily the truth.
9:17>> So, and not all the planes have the good doors.
9:20>> All right. Unless you pop in here, >> I'll say to your credit though, the thing is he didn't cite what you're saying.
9:26>> You know what I mean? It's like he's saying this being that, oh, you can get through the door, but it's like we know for a fact from what we're hearing that the doors are impenetrable, but if he cited your source, it'd be more compelling. The fact that he did it, that's like, oh, wait, he's just running on this.
9:42>> Either either either way, like I pride myself on calling it like it is, including when we're wrong. So, if that is the case, Ashton, on that point, I apologize. [laughter] That's gonna get clipped a lot.
9:59[laughter] >> Hey, I always said I'm I'm gonna be honest with you. So, please continue this story. That's now >> Yeah.
10:06>> Yeah. Sorry about that. So, I'm at the RNC and and Bob walks up to me and he says, "Hey, how you doing?" I said, "Hey, I'm okay. How are you?" He goes, "How's your day?" And I said, "Oh, dude." I said, "Listen to this. Listen to how my day was." [laughter] >> So, I told him. And he goes, "That's a felony." And I said, "You bet it's a felony. You bet it's a felony." He goes, "Did you call the FBI?" And I said, "No, I don't I don't talk to the FBI." And I said, "Bes besides, what are they going to do? Just kind of smile politely and and send me on my way."
10:38So, um, our buddy, you know, did his book reading and and I left. Couple of days later, I'm at Bruce's office, not for any reason. We just kind of hang out.
10:49And uh and I get a call on my cell phone and it's from Mike Schmidt at the New York Times and he says, "A little birdie told me that Rudy Giuliani tried to extort $2 million from you for uh for a pardon."
11:07And I said, "Oh, that damn Rob Mlan."
11:10[laughter] I said, >> he was a real whistleblower, >> right? and he said he was so angry that night that he called the FBI and he reported it and the FBI said, "Eh, not interested >> for a blatant felony."
11:29>> Uhhuh. So, and and I'll I'll circle back to that in a minute. So, Rob is like, "Screw the FBI then. I'm calling the New York Times." [laughter] >> That's the next best thing.
11:40>> And and Mike Schmidt's a two-time Puliter Prize winner. He's a serious guy. He's a front page guy. So I told him the story and um he said, "You willing to go on the record?" And I said, "Bruce, am I willing to go on the record?" And he said, "Hell yeah, go on the record." Giuliani needs to take responsibility for what he did. So front page of the Sunday New York Times is, you know, Rudy Giuliani tried to extort $2 million for me. So Giuliani, they call him for a comment and he says, "I have no idea who this guy is. Never met him before." And I said, Mike Mike Schmidt called me back and I said,
12:18"That's funny. Then he doesn't remember us posing for a picture together."
12:23>> Oh, no.
12:24>> So I sent it to him.
12:26>> Uhhuh. And so in the article it says, you know, Giuliani denied ever meeting me, never heard of me, and then it says, the New York Times has seen evidence that the meeting took place.
12:36>> Yeah. And they didn't publish the picture.
12:39>> I don't remember if they did or not.
12:41>> They may [clears throat] have. I don't remember.
12:43>> So interesting though. Like they were that blatant about it. Just >> Oh, it it was ridiculous. Look at that Giuliani.
12:51So, uh, so months pass and it just kind of that story goes away.
13:01But anyway, this this lobbyist that I had hired said, "Forget Giuliani. I got you in with Sebastian Gorka. Oh.
13:09>> And I was like, I I don't like that dude at all. I don't like him at all.
13:15>> He wears his father's Nazi party lapel >> pin.
13:19>> Like, he's not a he's not a neo-Nazi.
13:22He's an actual Nazi.
13:25>> The the lapel thing is that blows my mind.
13:28>> And you know why he didn't last at the National Security Council? Because he couldn't get an FBI. He couldn't get a little FBI clearance.
13:36>> And I want to slap that accent right out [laughter] of him, too. I hate that accent.
13:40>> You think the accent's real?
13:41>> No.
13:42>> You don't think so? He probably talks like this.
13:44>> He probably does.
13:46>> President Trump has never made a mistake in his life.
13:50>> Ever?
13:50>> Ever? Not once.
13:52>> I am the only non-Trump family member to be followed on Twitter by the [laughter] president, which is why I went to see him. So my lobbyist says, "Sbastian Gorka's got a book coming out. There's a big party at the Trump Hotel and we're going to get him. We're going to pigeon hole him for 5 minutes." "Bring your checkbook," she says. And I go, "Oh, so that's how it's going to be, huh?"
14:15>> "Oh, to Sebastian, too."
14:16>> So I said, "You know what? I'm a big boy. I've been in Washington for more than 40 years. I'll bring my checkbook."
14:23So I said, "How much is he going to ask me for?" She says, "He's going to ask you for 1,500 bucks." And I said, "What do I get for my 1,500 bucks?" And she said, "He's going to tweet at the president." Pardon John Kiryaku.
14:35>> It's a cheap date.
14:36>> Yeah. I said, "All right, I'll spend 1,500 bucks on that." Okay, but I'm not buying his book. [laughter] Nazi. So, I go to the Trump and everybody's there. Like every Republican member of Congress and Don Jr. and Tucker Carlson, everybody's there.
14:56So she takes me up to see Gorka and he says, "So you're the man who wants me to tweet at the president." And I said, "If you're so inclined." [laughter] And he says, "Give me $5,000."
15:14And I said, "Seriously?"
15:16He goes, "Give me $5,000."
15:19And I said, 'You know, I've been around for a long time and I understand the nature of Washington, but I'm not going to let you shake me down like I'm some two bit guy off the street. I go, [ __ ] you. I turned around and walked out. And she's like, that was just his opening price. He would have gone down to,500. And I said, [ __ ] him. I'm not doing this. I said, these guys are all criminals. I'm not doing this.
15:46So I walked.
15:48Time passes and have you heard of Noel Duny?
15:53>> I don't believe I have.
15:54>> She was an aid to Rudy Giuliani and he tried to get in her pants and he Yeah.
16:00>> And she went to the New York Times with her story. He tried to get me in bed. He he sexually harassed me. He sexually abused me. He did this. He did that. And [laughter] And she She's she's very very bright. [sighs] >> But most importantly, >> she's she's bright. All right.
16:23>> Most importantly from my perspective is that Giuliani went back to New York after our meeting and he said, "Uh, I tried to get $2 million out of this guy for a pardon today." And she kept that to herself until Giuliani put the moves on her >> and then she called the New York Times and said everything John Kuryaku said was true.
16:45that he had confessed to her that night.
16:47>> Oh my god.
16:48>> They tried to shake me down for $2 million.
16:50>> All the years this guy's been around and he's still dumb enough to get trapped by some by a nice red dress.
16:57>> Yep.
16:57>> Look at the title of this.
16:58>> Yeah. Could you honestly could you imaged [laughter] oral sex while on the phone to Trump?
17:06>> Could you imagine? Just scroll down so we can see that picture. Hold on. Could >> like like from a female perspective, could you? You can't give me all the money in the world to touch that. No.
17:16Sorry.
17:17>> Not a chance.
17:18>> Not a chance. [laughter] >> He's disgusting.
17:22>> She also claims >> I can't get it up either.
17:24>> That wouldn't surprise me at all. It says there she also claimed he went on alcohol drenched rants.
17:30>> Yeah.
17:31>> Yeah. If if the guy's wasted by two in the afternoon, then yeah, sure. I could see his alcohol-drenched rants.
17:37>> Unbelievable that like that's the case.
17:38Yeah. his wife when he when his wife divorced him she like put it in the court papers like can't get it up like as part of the [laughter] reason >> you know those she she or somebody close to her leaked those papers to the New York Times and some of the things that were in them were revoly for example he is a member of 16 country clubs >> can you imagine he spends $10,000 a month on cigars >> on cigars >> you don't get them for have a guy in Cuba.
18:10>> See, and he can't stop himself from defaming people and now he's lost everything.
18:15>> Yeah, he really is just a caricature, man.
18:18>> I I told you I was going to circle back around to something.
18:20>> Yeah.
18:21>> Um, this is not apppropo of anything that we've talked about so far, but in 2020, I was offered a job, the job of a lifetime, being the chief operating officer of a small investment company.
18:33And so, I accepted it. It was split time between Washington and Athens. And so I'm so excited. I'm meeting with important people and I'm six weeks into it and I realize these guys are committing bank fraud and money laundering. And so I downloaded 15,000 pages of documents onto a thumb drive and I resigned. And I went to the FBI.
19:02has said, "I have evidence of a massive fraud, [snorts] about $150 million worth. I've got all the documents, and I need to talk to an FBI agent." H not interested.
19:14So, I said to Bruce, "What do I do here?" He said, "I'm going to call this friend, a mutual friend of both of ours who used to be the deputy director of the >> Talk about Bruce Fine, the lawyer."
19:25>> Yeah. So, we call this friend and he says, "I'll get you into the Washington field office." So, he gets us an appointment with this FBI agent and you know my position on talking to the FBI, right?
19:35>> You're not a fan.
19:36>> I'm not a fan, but this was important enough to me that I needed to swallow my pride. [snorts] >> So, I go into the FBI with Bruce.
19:43>> This is before you're arrested, right?
19:44>> No, no, this is this is uh 2022.
19:48>> Oh, this is I I misheard that. I thought you were saying 2012. I'm thinking this is right before [clears throat] they're going to arrest you. 2022.
19:54>> Recent.
19:54>> Got it.
19:55>> So, we go to see this guy. Oh, Bruce is calling me right now.
19:58>> There you go. Answer it. Yeah.
19:59>> Let's say hello. Shout out to Bruce.
20:01We're on air.
20:03>> Hey, Bruce. How are you?
20:04>> Tell him we're on air. He's got >> We're on the We're on the air right now.
20:07And I am just talking about you and your name just now came out of my mouth when you called.
20:13[laughter] >> All good things, Bruce. All good things.
20:24>> Oh, I think something's I'm just going to commentate here because I can hear it a little bit. I think something good is happening.
20:30>> Oh, you've made my day.
20:31>> I think there's a pardon.
20:32>> You made my day.
20:33>> That >> Uncle Joe's going to wake up for Johnny.
20:36>> He's going to wake up, rise up, and pardon.
20:38>> Oh, Bruce, man. Thank you. Thank you.
20:40Thank you. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. [clears throat] Fantastic. I'll call you from uh from the road.
20:48>> All right.
20:49>> Thanks, Bruce. Bye-bye.
20:51>> So, Giuliani accepted your 2 million?
20:53>> No. Listen, my my [laughter] I I have a reputation for being a latigious prick >> because I've realized that >> nobody's going to give you justice. You have to seize your own justice and so I sue everybody.
21:06>> Good for you.
21:06>> And that was one of my suits. It's going forward.
21:09>> Oh, good. So, that wasn't the pardon.
21:10>> No, no, no. That's an ongoing process.
21:12>> Okay. So, um, so I go to the Washington field office with my thumb drive with 15,000 pages of documents and I said, "Well, you know, I was hired to be the COO of this investment company." And, and the guy goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait one second." He goes, "I'm going to save you a little bit of time. If this doesn't have the words terrorism, Russia, China, or January attached to it, we're not interested."
21:40>> Oh my god. And that was the end of the meeting.
21:44That's the FBI.
21:46>> Yeah. So, one one of my good friends is this guy Jim Dioro, who's been on the podcast between like co-hosting with me and everything like 11 or 12 times now.
21:56But Jim was he was a West Pointer 86.
21:59Went into the special forces for eight years. His roommates at West Point were Mike Pompeo and Mark Esper.
22:04>> Wow. And he was he while in the forces he one of his things was he was an undercover guy which is like >> that's a very big deal the best of the best.
22:14>> Like they're not going in there to capture you know that's right going in there to take care of business. So he gets out he gets offers from he's the most connected guy I've ever seen at all agencies. He gets offers from everyone.
22:25He decides to go to the FBI.
22:27>> 25 years in the FBI 25 years >> 11 on and off undercover. Some deep cover [ __ ] >> Wow. And then his he was a major case maker, but his other specialty was he was an international interrogator. And I know this is one thing you've actually spoken highly of with the FBI.
22:42>> They are really good at interrogations, >> right? So he he was one of the guys who would be called in around the world for some of these things like Ali Sufan was >> to do that. And you know when he talked about leaving the FBI in 2018 and and like he is brutally honest about the FBI now. I mean, the first podcast we ever did, like I couldn't even get him to do it for like 10 months. [laughter] I was like so nervous to do it and two hours in he's like, "Yeah, [ __ ] Jim Comey as a staff record label and as a [ __ ] C." Like he was just going off.
23:13>> Good for him.
23:14>> But he >> it's not law organization.
23:16>> Well, he t I I don't know that he goes that far, but what he is saying is that, >> you know, there is it's not about I'm putting some words in his mouth right now, but this is essentially what he's saying. is not about justice anymore so much as it is about what is the headline for. And that is exactly the example you just gave right there in practice, which is really a shame to see because like it or not, it's supposed to be like our top police unit >> in the country and and it feels like whatever if there was any kind of culture there that some of it was good and I know there's people out there who
23:49would say it was never good. Maybe that's right, but you know that that doesn't that appears to be really lacking today. I couldn't agree more.
23:58And there's something to what you just said. You look back at things like uh CO-INtEel Pro, right? Uh in the 60s into the 70s.
24:07>> Can you tell people what that was?
24:08>> Yeah. CO Intel Pro was counterintelligence program. This was a program um that the FBI came up with in the '60s to spy on uh anti-war activists, peace activists, and black liberation groups. it with the black liberation groups, especially um the Black Panthers, uh they got violent and actually killed people in cold blood like Fred Hampton, for example. Fred Hampton was executed in cold blood by the FBI because Jed Ghouver, the FBI founder and director, feared what he called uh the black messiah, right? He was that's, you know, thus the the title of the movie recently. Um, he was afraid that that there would be one black
24:52figure that could unite black people in America and would make them a formidable force that the FBI would lose control of.
25:01>> Yeah. Martin Luther King was killed, so he was no problem. Uh, Malcolm X.
25:06>> Oh, and there are still very important unanswered questions.
25:10>> Malcolm X was killed, so he wasn't a problem. Fred Hampton was doing dangerous things like opening food banks and, you know, proposing job training programs and other subversive actions.
25:25And so they just executed the guy.
25:29>> You ever hear the Jay-Z lyric about that?
25:31>> No.
25:31>> I was born on the day Fred Hampton die.
25:34Real bleeps just multiply. I was like, that's some poetic justice right there.
25:38Right.
25:38>> It is indeed.
25:39>> Every time I hear that, I'm like, that's a bar. That's a bar right there.
25:42>> Yeah. I like it.
25:43>> But anyway, going going back to some stuff like you you've previewed a lot of stuff we we got to talk about today with with with your story. So, I'm trying to keep, you know, make sure we get some of this linear and and go back with it. So, there's some things people have heard that you're like, "Oh, I want to hear more about that." We we will get there, especially like your case and the craziness >> that happened there. But you know those eight years from like 88ish or ' 89 to 96 97 when you're working on the Persian Gulf specifically Iraq >> at some point that you're an analyst and you go [clears throat] to places as you
26:13said as John Kuryaku but at some point you get pulled into the directorate of operations which is the national clandestine service to now officially be a spy.
26:22>> Right.
26:22>> Before we get there you had said >> I think it was like four months into your career you went to the farm.
26:28>> Yeah.
26:28>> Okay. Okay. So, this is this is in that that 9 months buildup to the war. You go to the farm. How long did you go to the farm for?
26:34>> Uh the original training was 6 weeks, >> best of my recollection. But then I went for like very specific operational training in 98.
26:49>> Okay. So, let's stay with the farm for one second then.
26:52>> Yeah. In those six weeks, did you get the reason I was bringing it up is did you get like real spy background there?
26:59>> None of it. Okay.
27:00>> It was all about writing for the president. Six weeks of writing and writing and more writing to make sure one of the things that the CIA is actually pretty good at is, you know, you've got thousands of analysts and every every day you're writing the president's daily brief. It's briefed in him at 7 o'clock in the morning. And no matter which one of the thousands of analysts writes a piece, it has to sound like it's all coming from one person. So there's a very specific CIA writing style. In fact, when I wrote my first book, I gave it to my wife to read the first draft and she came back and she
27:38said, "I hate it."
27:39>> Is this wife too?
27:40>> A wife too. And I said I go, "Really?"
27:44And she said, "Honey, I have listened to you tell these stories a thousand times and this reads like a dry government report."
27:51>> She said, "You have to start back at the beginning and write the way you talk."
27:55>> Yes.
27:56>> And I completely changed my writing style.
27:59>> I can switch back and forth now.
28:01>> But >> it's like writing like a lawyer versus writing, you know, same thing.
28:04>> Mhm.
28:06>> Yeah. So, it was all about writing those six weeks. Then when I switched to operations in 97, >> what precipitated that?
28:14>> I was bored stiff. [snorts] It was clear that Saddam Hussein was not going anywhere under the Clinton administration. And every day, I'll tell you exactly what it what it did. There was one there was one precipitating event that made me say either switch to operations or resign.
28:32I got assigned to write a national intelligence estimate, an NIE. Now this is the most important document that the intelligence community uh produces and it is it is the position of the entire intelligence community all whatever it is 19 intelligence organizations in the American government. So the national intelligence officer said to me I want you to write this paper and I want it to be called Iraq Saddam Hussein's next 12 months. And I said okay. So I wrote it. I said, "Saddam could threaten the Kurds. He could threaten the Shia. He could threaten Kuwait.
29:17Big deal, right? I might as well have just taken the previous one and changed the date on it." So we he calls together representatives of all of the intelligence services, right?
29:31We're talking about the Defense Intelligence Agency, State Department, Bureau of Intelligence and Research, um Commerce Department, uh the Pentagon, you know, the the Uniformed Services, Army Intelligence, Navy, Air Force, everybody. Everybody gets a vote. So, we're all sitting around the table. I'm in the middle with the with the NIO, the National Intelligence Officer, and you go literally sentence by sentence. So these things can take weeks like okay the first sentence is the purpose of this paper is to examine Saddam Hussein's actions or potential actions over the next 12 months.
30:11DIA do you agree with that? INR do you agree with that? Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard. Everybody agree with that?
30:18>> Coast Guard.
30:19>> Yeah. Seriously, everybody's a commerce department like they know anything. And then you go to the second sentence.
30:25[clears throat] We finished this paper in four hours.
30:29And the NIO says to me, that was the fastest coordination session I have ever gone through in my career. And I said, Ben, I'm ashamed of this paper.
30:42It says nothing new. It's the same paper as it is every single year, right? Nothing ever changes. I mean, and the thing is is if you're asked to write an NIE, you're getting promoted. This is a very big deal. He goes, "No, you know, this is a policy problem. It's not an intelligence problem. You did what you were expected to do." And I said, "I'm going to either quit or change to operations cuz I am bored to tears."
31:14And then it just so happened that this job opened up in the counterterrorism center and they were looking for an operations officer who and it at the end it says um either Greek or Arabic strongly desired.
31:30>> Oh.
31:31>> And I was like, "Hey, it's like they're talking to you."
31:34>> And as it turned out, I was the only person in the entire CIA who spoke both Greek and Arabic.
31:44So I applied and I went down to the counterterrorism center and I sought out the officer who had listed it. He was a big shot.
31:54>> You said this is like 97 >> very late 97.
31:57>> Okay.
31:58>> And I said, "I don't know the first thing about operations, but I speak Greek and Arabic fluently." And he's like, "Are you kidding me?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Are you willing to be tested?" And I said, "Oh, of course."
32:12I said, "Actually, I just was tested in Arabic a couple of weeks ago, but I'll I'll take whatever test you want me to take." And it turned out his not only was his secretary Greek, like Greek Greek, naturalized American, she was from Roads.
32:27>> So, she comes out and she starts speaking to me in Greek.
32:30>> Tenants worst nightmare.
32:31>> Yeah. And I'm answering her in Greek and she says, "He gets the thumbs up from me like that." [laughter] And he's like, he said to me, "It is a lot easier and a lot cheaper to take a linguist and teach him operations than it is to take an operations officer and teach him how to speak Greek and Arabic."
32:48>> Yeah. They're hard languages, too.
32:49>> Hard languages, both of them languages.
32:51>> And they have nothing in common.
32:52>> Yeah.
32:53>> And so I got the job and uh and they sent me to the farm for the real training. I was going to say, so you've never at this point like you've learned to think the way they think culturally at Langley. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of discretion and maybe some natural good healthy paranoia you have in life because of who you are, but you've never >> had to be the dude walking in jeans and a flannel through the streets tracking another dude. Nope.
33:21>> You know, >> and I ended up being good at it.
33:23>> Oh, yeah. I I've I've heard. But like, but like was there a part of you right when they said, "All right, you're in."
33:29Where you're like, "Oh [ __ ] this is a whole new >> No, I was so into it. I was so into it."
33:36Disguises and dead drops and brush passes and it was just all the stuff you see in the movies. You know, you know, in the James Bond movies, there's always always always a scene where James runs into the CIA guy, right?
33:53>> Yeah.
33:54Because that happens every time. Like you go to a dinner party and you hear, "Hello, John."
34:02>> You're like, "Fuck."
34:03>> Say, "Fuck."
34:04>> Hello, Nigel. [laughter] [laughter] Stay away from the shake, Nigel. [sighs] >> He's mine.
34:16Like every time.
34:17>> Yeah.
34:18So anyway, I go down there and um I did not have to take, you just alluded to something that's important. I did not have to take what is colloquially known as CIA 101, right? I was already mid-career. I know how the CIA works. I know what the offices do. I know what the different job, you know, descriptions are. So, I didn't need any of that stuff where they take you, you spend six weeks in this office, then you do six weeks in that office, and six weeks in disguises, and six weeks in lockpicking. I didn't have to do any of that stuff.
34:49>> So, so we went straight into the, you know, shooting.
34:53>> Wait, you didn't have to do like lockpicking and disguises and stuff like that?
34:56>> No, cuz they were introductory. Like if you're just hired out of high school or not high school, out of gra know about that.
35:02>> I don't need to know about it. I All you need to know is that it exists.
35:06>> Okay.
35:06>> And so if you need somebody to pick a lock, you send a cable. They're there the next day. They pick your lock.
35:10>> Fair enough.
35:11>> Yeah. So, um, my first day, the the course is called Crash and Bang, right? Because you crash cars and shoot stuff. And so, my first day, we're sitting there.
35:26There's like a dozen of us. And the instructor says, "Okay, let's start." He says, "I got to ask, who here does not own a gun?" And I put my hand up.
35:37>> God damn it, John.
35:38>> I know. And I look around and I'm the only guy with my my hand up. And he says, "You don't own a gun?" And I go, "Truth be told, I've never actually touched a real gun."
35:49[laughter] Like, "Who the [ __ ] let this guy in?"
35:52>> And the guy goes, "Oh shit." [laughter] He's like, "All right." He goes, "Everybody else go pick a gun. You come with me.
36:02>> You get the wooden one."
36:03>> I did. I got the wooden [laughter] one.
36:09But only for the first day. The wooden one with the orange tip.
36:15>> They gave you that in a whistle.
36:17[laughter] >> At least I made a bulge under my shirt.
36:21>> Oh my god.
36:22>> So he's like, "Look, you know, you got to learn the parts of the gun." And I had to take the gun apart and put it back together again. It was a Browning a Browning 9mm.
36:32>> Okay. Um, which ended up hurting me because the the Browning for whatever reason has a the the hammer has a big kick and it it cut me [clears throat] here. So, I was bleeding all over the gun.
36:43>> Did you report the cut, sir? This cut me.
36:45>> I didn't say anything cuz I wanted didn't want to be a dick to everybody.
36:48But, there's a medic of course on site all the time. He's like, "Oh, you buddy.
36:51You're bleeding." I was like, "Yeah, the hammer keeps hitting me." So, he wraps my hand up and they're like, "Okay, you can't use a Browning anymore." So, I I [laughter] got a Desert Eagle.
37:01>> Yeah. Don't touch your vagina next time.
37:03[laughter] >> That's right.
37:06>> It turned out I ended up um not just testing first in the shooting. Um but one of my instructors pulled me aside afterwards and he said, "Have you ever shot competitively?" And I said, "No, these guys were ragging on me because I I'm was the only one that, you know, never used a gun before." And he says, "You could shoot competitively like ski." And so I did.
37:28>> Wow.
37:28>> And and I ended up doing well.
37:30>> So you were a natural. I was a natural.
37:31I have very steady hands.
37:33>> Yeah.
37:34>> Did you have glasses back then, too?
37:36>> No, I I only got the glasses in my 40s.
37:39>> Okay. So, you had good eyesight, steady hands?
37:41>> Yeah, I did.
37:41>> It's always the people who least want it that get the most of it.
37:44>> Isn't that the truth?
37:45>> Yeah.
37:46>> So, uh you know, we did we we certified in the in the 38 the 9 millimeter the pumpaction 12 gauge. Uh, and then we played around with rocket launchers and 50 cows and >> Oh, you got to play with rocket launchers. You doing this in the fields in Virginia?
38:05[snorts] >> Yeah, >> just chilling. Wow, >> those are nasty.
38:10>> And then we did something that was really cool. You've probably seen it on TV. You go into the shooting gallery, the shooting house. Yeah.
38:16>> So, you're you're walking, your instructor's right behind you with his hand on your shoulder and you're using live ammo and you know, somebody pops up in the window and it could be a guy with an Uzi or it could be a woman holding a baby and you have less than a second to decide whether to shoot or not.
38:34>> Oh boy.
38:34>> Yeah. So, I go through the shooting gallery and you got to have the gun down and you're like bang bang bang bang.
38:42Right. Always the double tap.
38:45I ended up getting a 97. The reason why I didn't get a 100 is because one guy I hit him in the throat and the shoulder instead of the throat and the chest.
38:53Okay.
38:54>> But if you only have half of a second to get the two shots off, you know, I declared victory and went home.
38:59>> Yeah.
39:00>> Um there was another good score.
39:02>> 97 was good.
39:04>> Um nobody else got that high. And then you you use live ammo too out in the field where you use a car. you're in a car and um and they shut the engine off remotely, right? And then somebody takes a shot at you.
39:22>> So, you have to unbuckle your seat belt, roll across the the seat, get out the passenger side, lay on the ground, try to see where the shots coming from, and then you have to shoot back. Well, it's a robot that's shooting you.
39:39I couldn't get a clear shot at the robot.
39:42So, I put my head up a little. I shot out my own windows and then I shot the robot and I I succeeded. I scored 100.
39:52>> The instructor's like, "Damn it, Karaaku.
39:55That was my last decent car. You shot the windows out." I said, "You told me I I got to shoot the robot. [laughter] I couldn't get a clean shot because you disabled my engine."
40:08>> [ __ ] THE WINDOWS, BILL.
40:10>> I know, right? [laughter] But man, that was fun fun. And then you have to crash through roadblocks. They they teach you the proper way to do that. There there is most definitely a wrong way to do it.
40:24>> What's the wrong way to do it?
40:25>> It depends on how the roadblock is set up. If it's set up in a V, which is the most difficult to get through, always hit the light side of the car. Don't hit where the engine is, right? You got to hit where the trunk is, and the car will fly out of your way. M >> but if it's in a V, even if if it's the the backs of the cars forming the V, the V will it's like a it's like a wedge where it'll it'll strengthen on its own. So you have to hit the engine it makes it more difficult.
40:57>> Yeah.
40:59>> And then we did um Wow. Um surveillance.
41:04>> Yeah. Did they drop you in a city and do that whole thing? Like for real?
41:08>> I'll tell you one funny thing.
41:09>> Yeah.
41:10>> It was the only thing that I distinctly um uh did not enjoy was um parachuting, >> right?
41:17>> So, this is well before 9/11. And um I said to one of the guys, "Why do we have to do why do we have to jump out of planes? I don't want to jump out of a plane. I'm going to be making my recruits [snorts] my recruitments at diplomatic cocktail parties. right? Like I'm offended. They're wasting my time here. I could be do something doing something uh you know, productive. After 911, I'm sitting in the back of a C12 and the back opens up and I said to this guy next to me, I can't [ __ ] believe I'm going to jump out of [laughter] screen.
41:54>> There's Listen, can't say they're not prepared.
41:57>> So, they're teaching you every bit of spycraft. And then they flew us out to the desert out west and we did advanced counterterrorist driving.
42:06>> What does that mean?
42:07>> Uh mostly sand dunes.
42:09>> Oh, so they're preparing you for the hills of Afghanistan.
42:12>> Yeah. And then I actually flew back from Athens to um to do a class called uh advanced counterterrorism operations.
42:20That was that was deep.
42:22>> Yeah.
42:23>> When you say deep, is that like you're putting masks on and learning how to do all that too?
42:27>> No, we did that in the original training. How good were the masks back then in >> Absolutely. Absolutely. First class.
42:34>> Ja Mandez in charge of that at the time.
42:37>> She's a genius.
42:38>> She tells a story that cuz she went way back with HW Bush. She knew him from the early days. Yes.
42:44>> And she went and gave a briefing to him when he was president at this point >> in a full mask and suit and he had no idea it was her. And this is like 1990.
42:53>> She made a mask for me. It was a bald head with a comb over, right? and a mustache and and really thick glasses.
43:02So, the only seam was right here on the bridge of my nose, right? And the glasses covered it up. So, they shipped it out to me and I put it on and my chief said that is the best disguise I have ever seen. And I said, they told me it was the first time they had ever done a bald head with a comb over. And he says, "We got to go to the ambassador."
43:26So, we go into the ambassador. It was uh it was Nick Burns who's now the ambassador to China.
43:32We go in, he says, "Mr. Ambassador, I have an expert uh who's visiting from Washington. I wanted to introduce him."
43:36And I said, "How do you do, Mr.
43:38Ambassador?" He says, "Well, welcome to Athens. Nice to meet you. Who are you here to see?" And I started making something up and then my boss started laughing and then I started laughing and he said, "What am I missing?" And I went like this and I pulled it off [snorts] and he's like, "Oh my god." And I said, "Pretty good, right?" And he's like, "That's the best disguise I've ever seen."
44:02>> This is in the '9s.
44:04>> In the '9s. I have no idea what they're like now.
44:07>> Now you're wearing them, right? So you go put it on alone in your room or whatever. You know you're wearing it cuz you're the [ __ ] person wearing it.
44:15>> When you naturally that means you're you you're biased to see flaws. When you looked in the mirror, did you were you like, "I don't know." Or were you like, "Holy shit." That's a great question and it's not unique to my disguise, but to all disguises.
44:30>> One thing that never feels natural is the mustache >> because you use glue. It's all real hair, right? And it's it's on mesh. So, you can't see the mesh. It looks like a real mustache. But if I have a real mustache, it moves naturally with my face.
44:47>> A glued on one doesn't. It looks stiff.
44:50When you watch TV shows and people are wearing fake mustaches, you can tell that they're fake. That's right. Because their upper lip doesn't move naturally if >> Now, how do you work against that? Do you just like try to not say anything in front of your >> Yeah. And you can't smile broadly because the glue will come will detach, you know, like it's it's pliable enough to move as you're speaking, but if you smile, it stretches too much and the the mustache will start to come off.
45:23>> You got to be careful.
45:24>> What is it made out of? Are you allowed to say that?
45:26>> Real human hair.
45:27>> No, no, no. Not the mustache. The suit.
45:30>> Like what? What?
45:31>> I don't even know. rubber, you know, it was just like like a rubber mat. It was It was finer than what you would buy at a costume store, for example.
45:40>> Yeah. Does it like adhes?
45:42>> No.
45:43>> No. So, it's not going to move at all like someone >> Nope. Nope. I recruited this one guy.
45:49>> Jesus.
45:49>> And I sent him out to a town in the western part of the country.
45:53>> Yeah. That's going to be We'll be whatever.
45:56>> Excellent.
45:57>> Yeah. Um, I I recruited this guy and uh and we weren't really sure if he was dangerous. Was he a a dangle, a plant?
46:07We weren't sure. And he had only known me as the bald-head combover guy.
46:12>> Oh my god.
46:13>> And so I looked 20 years younger in real life than what this disguise made me look like. And um I told him to meet me, you know, at at an intersection in this town. and um and I walked past him like walking toward him. So he looked me right in the eye and um didn't register at all. No idea.
46:38>> I went back to the hotel. I put the disguise on. I came out and got him. I just wanted to make sure that there was nobody around him. He wasn't carrying a gun.
46:47>> He had no idea. Now when you put it on though, your eyes are still your eyes, right?
46:51>> Yeah, your eyes are still your eyes.
46:52Although you can use you can use um contacts and some cases colored contacts. I've got this I've got this thing this aging thing. It's called Arcuselis where my eyes are starting to turn blue around the edges. It's just a a function of aging. My grandfather had it. So if I were in the CI today, I would have to wear brown contacts >> because otherwise if I'm close enough, you know, that we're looking at each other and having a conversation, you can see the blue, >> right?
47:20>> And that would be a giveaway.
47:22So, you got to be careful about that.
47:24>> Is it So, is it just your head with it?
47:26>> Pretty much.
47:27>> They don't have like the hands.
47:28>> You can do a belly. You can do hands.
47:30>> And what's that? It does that look like real skin?
47:33>> Well, it's under the shirt.
47:34>> I know, but like if someone told you to take your shirt off, they >> And they'll match they'll match the color of the of the uh prosthetic to your skin.
47:43>> So, the prosthetic of the comb over matched your skin.
47:47>> Oh, there was a woman who came out. She was an artist and she spent days matching the prosthetic to my skin color. It was >> So you didn't have to wear it here or anything like that?
47:59>> No, it was perfect.
48:01>> Mhm.
48:02>> What does it feel like?
48:04>> If it's just on the head, it feels very natural.
48:08>> How th But is it like if it's thick, it can make your head look so big. So like how it's is it really thin?
48:14>> Oh, no. It's very very thin.
48:16>> Yeah, >> very thin. Yeah.
48:18>> So, it looks natural.
48:19>> Mhm.
48:20>> It really does.
48:22>> It's getting scary out here.
48:23>> Yeah. It's good. And you know, this is becoming more and more important in the age of uh facial recognition software.
48:31If you're undercover or worse, you're under deep cover or you're you're traveling in alias and you have to cross borders, go through airports. I mean, how do you do that if facial recognition software is scanning you?
48:45>> Can it scan your eyes? That's the thing.
48:47Like, can't the eyes be the giveaway?
48:49>> That's going to be a problem.
48:50>> Even with contact lenses, I feel like like the shape it'll be able to get the shaping of the pupils and everything.
48:55>> I I would be worried about that if I were still at the CIA.
48:59>> All right. So, you get you learn to shoot. You learn to use rocket launchers. You learn to jump out of planes. They drop Oh, we we got off this. They drop you in a city. I've had guys like Joe Tedy and Sean Ryan in here who work with CIA ground branch and GRS.
49:12Like >> they talk about the and Andy's talked about it where they drop you in DC or something. Were you right in DC doing it?
49:18>> Uh yeah, almost all of it was in DC. I had to fly out to San Diego at one point and got on a sub and um we went up to the uh Oregon coast.
49:29>> Oh, like a submarine.
49:30>> A submarine. Oh >> yeah. We went up to the Oregon coast and we were they took me, you know, whatever it was, a half a mile, a quarter mile off the coast and they they rose and I got into a little dinghy and I had to row myself to shore. You stab the dinghy, you bury it in the sand, you pick up the message that's hidden in the bottle and then that's your instructions for the next thing.
49:54>> [ __ ] Tom Hanks out here. [ __ ] >> it was hard. when you went when you were doing the drills though in DC is it the like the way the other guys have described it is they'll be like all right you have to steal a shirt from this store and not get caught and stuff like that >> or you've got to get uh onto into an apartment on the 10th floor of this office build or uh of this uh apartment building and come out onto the balcony and signal us.
50:18>> How'd you do that?
50:20>> Um I bought a clipboard and I bought a shirt and put a little name tag and I told the woman that I was a maintenance inspector. Don't get a ladder, too.
50:28>> I told the woman I was a maintenance inspector and I needed to check on the uh on the condition of her of her balcony. So, I went out there with my clipboard. I pretended to uh write something, gave the guys the thumbs up, and passed the uh the exercise.
50:42>> That guy I told you about, Jim Dioro, has a great quote called politeness and familiarity breeds access.
50:48>> Amen.
50:49>> And so, he he tells a story about like he he's out of his [ __ ] mind, but like he's done some he works with Booonte now. put that in perspective.
50:57But he was like right after he retired from the FBI, he was taking these crazy contracts. And so one of his guys who was like the CEO of a [ __ ] Fortune like 50 company [snorts] told him that his security for his company at their headquarters was phenomenal. And Jim's like, "The [ __ ] it is?" And he's like, "No, no, it's phenomenal." And Jim's like, "So I could test it?" He's like, "Oh yeah, you'll never you'll never be able to to get in there. Maybe we can splice in the Jim story here, but I'll tell John while while we're in here. But he So Jim go [laughter] go go go goes to the [ __ ] Starbucks
51:32outside the outside the headquarters.
51:34He's like loading his gun, [laughter] making sure it's unloaded like outside the Starbucks. People are looking at him. He's like, "All right, get in the game mode." [laughter] Walks in the front door. Like literally goes to the front desk. He goes, "Oh, oh, uh, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm I'm going to see so and so on the third floor." Like, "Yeah, yeah, okay. Go ahead." Gets up to the third floor. goes up to the front desk, has I think he had donuts or something, and he goes, "Ah, yeah, sorry I'm late with these. I was supposed to bring them yesterday, but he he's in, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's in. Yeah, it should be
52:02five minutes." Walks in there, sits down at the desk or walks in there, the CEO sitting down at the desk, goes through the door, holds up the gun to his head, and says, "You're dead. We need to talk."
52:11>> It was that easy.
52:12>> Oh my god, that is brilliant.
52:13>> It was like two steps.
52:14>> That's brilliant.
52:15>> Crazy. But like, you know, you guys have to learn how to do that common sense at CIA. I've said in other podcasts, I was always the good cop when I was in operations. Always. And I found success to be far easier than it was for the guys who were the bad cop.
52:33>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I could see that because like you the way you strike me and I've I've listened to you for years now because of Danny's show and you know I I just think the way you break down like geopolitics and stuff is so good. But like >> you have this air of obviously like you're very friendly. So that that's disarming.
52:56>> But you give off this air that's completely untrue. That's an incredible tool which is you give off an air of complete aloofness.
53:03>> I don't know if you know this. I mean maybe you >> I never really thought about it.
53:06>> Yeah. You you walk in like the guy like, "Ah yeah, this place is great. Wow. How long have you been doing this?" Like you don't know a [ __ ] thing that's going on. No. But you've already charted out the whole place and you're ready to slit the throat of the family member of the guy sitting across from you and feed it to him.
53:20>> Sometimes you have to do things I I'll give you an example. I'm going to skip [laughter] way ahead. Skip way ahead. So I get to prison, right? And the judge had had ordered that I be sent to a minimum security work camp. No bars on the windows, no locked doors. You're free to just come and go as you please. You're on your honor not to abscond. and they put me in the actual prison, right? The agency just the the victim, my victim objected, right? So, um, [laughter] so I said, "Well, I got to I got to protect myself here, but I'm trained to do this." So, I had we can come back to this, but there was one incident where where the
54:03uh the Aryans just weren't quite sure what to make of me. And so somehow this rumor got started that I was an assassin for the CIA >> and I thought I'm going to go with it.
54:16So one of the Aryans uh stops me in the yard. And he goes, "Is it true you were an assassin with the CIA?" And I go, "Hey, we all did stuff that we weren't proud of. It was wartime."
54:29And that was it from the Aryans. They're like, "Oh, you can sit with us at our table." I was like, "Okay."
54:36until the the Italians said, "Why you sit with those Nazi?"
54:42>> Oh, sorry.
54:42>> Yeah. No, you're good. Keep going.
54:44>> And um and so I was with the Italians after that. But you know, you just got to go with it.
54:50>> Yeah. Yeah. Like you're very it it's a psychological power for sure. That's why it's so fascinating to listen to because I can see like guys like you. What's What's Jim Lawler's line? He's like, I have to make people trust me to be turn become a traitor country.
55:08>> Exactly. I say all the time, >> what makes this job so hard is you have to convince people that you are their best friend to the point where they love you so much they're willing to commit espionage for you.
55:23>> That's right.
55:23>> Or in some cases, they're willing to commit treason for you just because they love you.
55:28>> What's the difference?
55:30>> Espionage and treason. I mean, when you're talking to guys in foreign countries, it's I mean, it's pretty much always going to be that, right?
55:36>> Yeah. Espionage is, you know, providing secrets, >> that's not treason.
55:43>> Treason is providing aid and comfort to the enemy.
55:47>> How's So, if I if I recruit a guy from, you know, Mexico to give me information on the corn harvest, which might be important to the Department of Agriculture in some way, that's not treason. It's espionage most definitely. But treason is if I convince a Russian or Chinese, a Cuban, a North Korean, you know, an Iranian.
56:09>> Okay.
56:10>> They're going to hang for that.
56:10>> All right. So, there's a small distinction. Yeah, >> I got you.
56:14>> Yeah. I mean, there like like we were talking about earlier with the psychological tools. I could I could see where they see that in you. It's like you're >> you're like happy to be about the action, but you are, make no mistake about it, beneath there is a very serious guy. Like you you understand implic. You're not there's no real aloofness to you. You know exactly what you're dealing with. You just know how to have a a soft exterior for people so that they can kind of be taken in by that.
56:44>> And I think that's why I was successful.
56:46>> Yeah.
56:47>> Yeah. Like I remember a guy I had recruited a guy. He was in dire financial straits and something happened in his life. I don't remember what it was but he he triggered a meeting which was highly unusual. And I go to the meeting and um and he's got a he's got a shopping bag. It has all of his wife's jewelry in it. And he said, "Can you give me $5,000 for this jewelry?" And I go, "What am I [ __ ] jeweler?" Like seriously. [laughter] That's what I told him. Like what do you want me to do?
57:19I was watching on the plane yesterday. I was watching Good Fellas.
57:22>> You remember the scene where where um where Paulie is uh >> well uh Joe Peshy Tommy he's just done the what I make you laugh scene [snorts] and he smashed the bottle over the owner's head and the owner goes to Paulie and says come on you got to come in come in uh on the business take a piece to the restaurant. And Pauliey's chomping on his cigars like, "What? What the [ __ ] do I know? I What do I [laughter] know? I know how to go in the restaurant and order the meal. That's all. I don't know anything about the restaurant business. So what? You want me to take a piece of this restaurant?"
57:56It's the same situation. Yeah.
57:57>> You go in. I'm like, "What the [ __ ] do I know?" Okay. You want Listen, keep your jewelry. Keep your jewelry. What I need from you is I need two hours in your embassy's code room. How about that?
58:09>> That'll do.
58:09>> That Yeah, I'd rather have that than your wife's jewelry. They should make that a Visa commercial. [laughter] >> Priceless.
58:17>> Yeah, >> that's it.
58:18>> Right. We good? We happy, right? Let's have a drink.
58:21>> Yeah. So, you So, you get pulled the You're doing all this training in like 97. How long was the was the now spy training that first time? Not the not when you came back.
58:31>> It was like 8 months, nine months.
58:36>> Okay. So, you're in there down and dirty. Are you Your second wife was in CIA, right?
58:41>> Yeah. Yeah. She was a senior CIA officer.
58:43>> Okay. Are you with her at this point or is that >> No, I went to Athens with my first wife and then we split up at the end of the Athens tour.
58:51>> Now, was it was it hard being married to someone who you really couldn't tell anything?
58:57>> Oh my god, it was awful. It was awful.
59:00Especially in Athens. I mean, I was doing dangerous [ __ ] in Athens. And yeah, I remember my my son my son my oldest son was like six at the time and I had seven cell phones, right? I kept him in in a we had a rather large house so I used one room as a den and I kept that door locked. But he saw when I went in one time I have seven cell phones and he said why do you have seven cell phones? And I said there are a lot of people that need to call me. [laughter] What are you going to say to a six-year-old? And then he says, "Why do you carry a gun?" And I said, "Well, I have a dangerous job at the embassy."
59:41And he said, "Mikey's dad works at the embassy and he doesn't have a gun."
59:45>> Oh.
59:45>> And I said, "Well, I'm a detective at the agency." I I mean, at the embassy.
59:50And and that was Yeah. I've done that more than once.
59:52>> And uh that that was acceptable to a six-year-old. M >> but then you know I'd get a call at 11 and you know he says uh the rain in Spain falls mainly in the plane and I say Maris eat oats and dozy oats and little lambs Ivy which means meet me in 3 hours at the Marriott coffee shop and so I split and my wife's like where are you going? I got to work now. My first wife was a ballet teacher. She didn't know anything about the CIA. Was she Greek?
60:23>> Yes.
60:23>> So she spoke Greek.
60:24>> Yes. So, she wasn't miserable living in Greece.
60:26>> No, no, she loved it. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.
Read the essay version →