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13:01So live on Jimmy Door.
13:04Hey >> everybody, I'm here with Kurt Mexican, Steph Zambrano, and we have a guest coming in at 3:30. So let's get to it.
13:12Um, just to let you know what the Overton window is. I think everyone knows what the Overton window is. It's a very common phrase used almost uh exclusively in comedy. I mean, in politics.
13:23>> Mhm. So the Overton window is a concept in a political sci in political science describing the range of ideas or policies that are considered acceptable or mainstream within public opinion at any given time. Policies inside the window are seen as viable for politicians to support without risking their careers. Those outside it are viewed as too extreme, radical, and unthinkable. In short, the Overton window explains why certain ideas suddenly become normal while others remain taboo. It's about the boundaries of acceptable debate shifting over time.
13:59For example, same-sex marriage, right?
14:01There was a time when you couldn't be for that and then there was a time you couldn't be against it. So, the window had shifted on that. Marijuana legalization, once radical and unthinkable, now everybody's for it.
14:12economic policies like a 70 to 90% top marginal rate were within the window the Overton window in the mid 20th century but now you couldn't say that without sounding like a crazy Marxist communist fascist >> co era policies things like widespread lockdowns or vaccine mandates those were once inside the Overton window now they're way outside of it okay and so why do I bring this up because Bill Mahar uh now he I know he hates me and I know it bothers him that I make fun of his stupid take sometimes.
14:45And the the reason I know that is because the last time uh two times ago when I did Joe Rogan, he was the next guest >> and he wouldn't even come in the building until I had left the building.
14:59He sent his assistant in to scout to make sure I wasn't there so we didn't have a confrontation or he didn't have to say hello to me or anything. Make sure Dunigan's not in there either.
15:12>> Yes. So, >> okay.
15:14>> So, just to let you know, it's nice to know that I bother Bill Maher and he's afraid to meet me, but he's dumb enough to put me on his show, which is great advertising. I again, it just it just tickles me to no end that he put me on his show, but he was afraid to say my name, which even makes it better.
15:34>> So, yeah, >> new rule.
15:36>> He did it.
15:36>> I'm not saying your name. He did new rule and he did it at the end at the end of He did it like in the middle of a rant where he's literally bragging about being dumb about stuff. It's it's the stuff we used to think I used to make fun of uh right-wingers for like flat-earthers and people who didn't believe in evolution stuff like >> a Muslim cleric he would be insulting for saying it's foolishness to learn more when you already know all the stuff >> as a thing he would criticize a Muslim >> this but here he is u he it's the ultimate boomer take right it's the ultimate go so so let's watch and and in
16:15about the three minute mark he's going to come to me let's watch >> and finally Finally, new rule. Stop making me know stuff I don't want to know.
16:24>> Did you know that the human brain actually has an actual And finally, new rule, stop making me know stuff I don't want to know.
16:34>> Did you know that the human brain actually has an actual finite storage capacity? It's estimated to be about 2.5 million gigabytes. Impressive, but not infinite.
16:45>> By the way, stop making me know stuff I don't want to know. That sounds like a title of That should be the title of Bill's podcast.
16:54>> Uh, Club Random sounds too much like he actually might learn some things.
16:59>> I don't want to do that. Okay.
17:00>> Please don't make me know. I don't want to know about deadkins and gods. Huh? I hate kids. Also, >> I'm not a kid guy.
17:07>> Also, I don't need to know if my hooker has a penis. What are we getting married? Just blow me and go. Okay.
17:13Okay. Okay. So, here we go. That's why sometimes you just got to say discful.
17:27>> Now, these aren't horrible jokes, but just remember what these are all an aid of. These are an aid of defending ignorance about stuff you should know.
17:37Okay, here we go.
17:39>> Stop shoving things down my brain.
17:42Couple of weeks ago on our overtime segment, one of my guests used the term the Overton window, which up until a year ago I had heard only once every never.
17:54But lately I hear it everywhere.
17:56>> The Overton window.
17:58>> The Overton window.
17:59>> The Overton window.
17:59>> The Overton window.
18:00>> Overton window.
18:01>> The Overton window.
18:02>> The Overton window.
18:03>> The Overton window.
18:04>> The Overton window.
18:05>> The Overton window.
18:10Sorry, but I just couldn't hold my tongue anymore.
18:15>> Well, the Overton window has opened up.
18:17Um, you know about >> I don't know what that is, and I don't want to know what that is.
18:23>> I don't don't tell me.
18:28>> So, if there's one thing Bill Maher is known for, it's his resistance to any new information of any kind. even when the new information is decades old, which explains his audience. Okay, here we go.
18:42>> Yeah, I I wasn't kidding. This isn't a bit I really don't know what the Overton window is, and I really don't want to know.
18:50>> It's a really basic thing. I just explained it at the top. Everybody who watches this show knows what it is. And it's so easy to understand. People who watch CNN know what it is cuz they use it on there all the time, >> right? And even if you think it's a stupid and I agree it's an annoying term that annoying people throw around a lot.
19:07>> Keep going.
19:09>> I agree. But but you should know about it so you understand the thing you don't like. Shouldn't you?
19:15>> Should you learn as much?
19:22>> It may be the only thing that's still on my bucket list. I want to die not knowing what the opening window is.
19:32Now, maybe it's awesome, but it just seems like the kind of pedantic that triggers me. So, if you try to So, if you try to tell me on the street, I'll keep walking.
19:44Try to tell me on a plane, I'll jump out a real window.
19:48If you start to explain it to me, I'll stop you. If you write it, I won't read it. I I didn't order it.
20:00>> You know what? Well, we didn't order the Iran war either, Bill, but that's what's for dinner now. Okay.
20:06>> Yeah.
20:07>> And and I don't think I need it because I'm a strong believer in the academic theory of I kind of get it.
20:17>> He kind of get he kind of gets it, Kurt.
20:20So basically he rewards ignorance and comfort over uncomfortable knowledge which there's a that's a network prerequisite by the way if you want to work anywhere close to that kind of money because the money is made in no small part from the propagation of greater lies. Okay, here we go.
20:43Yeah, I kind of get it.
20:47Yeah, the the Overton window. It's something bad we don't want to pass through. And Trump Trump is just making it worse. And I'm sure he is, but that's enough for me. I don't need to chase every one of your manufactured buzzwords down the rabbit hole.
21:02Couple of >> But rabbit hole is fine for him to use.
21:09No problem.
21:10>> That's his joke. He's like, I learned rabbit hole. I'm not learning this is what he's getting at, I think.
21:15>> Okay.
21:19A couple of years ago, Joe Rogan and his guest some guy.
21:25>> That's me.
21:27How did he He's calling me by my my confirmation name. I'm James Patrick some guy. Door.
21:33>> I thought he said some >> Aha.
21:37Yeah, I'm just some >> Who's that guy?
21:41>> Anyway, here we go. So, there it is. I made it out of Bel. So, just by the way, this is from several years ago. So, don't think that this is hasn't been sticking in his craw for a long time.
21:53And what is sticking in his crawl? Well, it's going to show you. Watch this.
22:00>> Took me to task for not knowing what D.
22:02>> By the way, my show gets more viewers in a month than yours does. My show gets well over 33 million views a month. How many million views you think Bill Bar Show gets? less than that, that's for sure. And we don't never know cuz HBO never releases their numbers. But anyway, just to let you know, okay, but I am some guy and I definitely am jealous of his platform because his platform actually gets to influence policy and the discussion, but so does mine. Here we go.
22:32>> I don't think it does influence. I think it's the advertisement for what the policy is going to be based on the guests.
22:37>> You're probably right about that, Kurt.
22:38But here we go. WF or MK Ultra was.
22:43>> He doesn't even know what the WEF is all that he even know what MK Ultra was.
22:50>> Okay, guys. WF is World Economic Forum where the billionaires meet every year in Davos. Yes, I do know that. I just >> No, you didn't know that. Which is why Joe Rogan brought it up several years ago.
23:03>> You didn't know what You didn't know the WF was a thing. You didn't know about the Bilderbergs. You thought that was all some kind of crazy Alex Jones conspiracy stuff. Which is why Joe Rogan, who is infinitely more popular than you, which is and said that on his own show and why the la the last time you were on his show, you had to beg him to come on your show to prop up the numbers and he kept telling you no. I don't know if people remember that, but I do. He kept begging him no cuz Joe's like, I don't want to be on there.
23:35Everybody talks over. He goes, no, you'll come out as my special guest. you don't want be. He's like, "No, I'm not doing that. Come on. Please, Joe, come on my show." Joe said no. And it's still bothering him. And it still bothers him that I've made fun of him correctly for a long, long time. Okay.
23:50>> And you don't support Israel.
23:51>> And I don't support Israel. Okay.
23:55>> Okay. People >> call it the WF.
23:58>> Hang on. Let me back it up so we can get a running start at this.
24:04Ultra was.
24:09>> He doesn't even know what the WF is all.
24:12>> He didn't even know what MK Ultra was.
24:16>> Now his audience is laughing because they also are ignorant of what MK Ultra actually is. And Bill Maher is going to try to pretend it he tries to dismiss it as something that happened in the 60s and as if the CIA would ever stop doing mind control. Anyway, here we go.
24:35>> Okay, guys. WF is World Economic Forum where the billionaires meet every year in Davos. Yes, I do know that. I just don't call it the WF.
24:43>> That's what they call it. Guess who calls it that? The WF.
24:48>> What does he call it? I call the orgy I go to.
24:51>> What is that?
24:52>> I call it the orgy I go to.
24:55>> I didn't know we had a name for it.
25:00If I hear Joe Rogan say WF, I just assume it's some form of professional wrestling organization, which also gets bigger numbers than your show.
25:19>> Okay, so it's it's this should be called the people Bill is annoyed and jealous of segment, but here we go. and uh MK Ultra. Okay. The old CIA program where they experimented with LSD. Yes, I've read about it. I just don't use the decoder ring.
25:37>> So, do you see how he tried he tried to dismiss it as oh that that thing they did one time with LSD? That's not what MK Ultra was. Okay.
25:46>> What's the decoder ring thing? I don't get that at all. He's trying to make it look like we're uh whoever talks about MK Ultra is a conspiracy theorist who uses wears tinfoil hats and decoder rings. That's what that that's what that is. Okay. And >> Oh, okay.
26:00>> Too bad Bill Too bad he doesn't understand what actually MK Ultra is and that it never went away because it explains why the media uses those hypnotic phrases that he hates.
26:12>> Yeah. He's going to get into Watch what he does after. He's going to show mockingb bird to you.
26:22>> So that's Bill Bar. Couldn't I knew it he the day was going to come when he put me on a show and the day came and there it is. And God forbid he should ever become a better citizen. It's m, you know, it's much easier being a smug, lazy sofa spud like his audience is.
26:42Arrogance and ignorance dancing hand in hand without the dancing part because that's too much work. Okay, people.
26:49>> Uh, I don't need to know stuff, but I do have a show where I talk about current events.
26:54>> That's right.
26:58>> Yeah, >> why would I need to know facts?
27:00>> It'd be one thing if you were Jimmy Fallon playing bear pong. You're a guy who's bringing on editorial writers from the New York Times and presidential candidates, people. Everybody wants to come on your show cuz it's legacy media and and you don't care to know about stuff. That's who Bill Maher is. And uh that's which is why he stills on the side of Israel and gets his ass handed to him by anybody who got who's uh normal and uh when comes on his show like Glenn Greenwald and I'll show you that in a second. But here let's watch this.
27:33>> I don't feel like I need to know everything. I'm sure.
27:36>> No, you need to know most things that you are talking about, especially a term that has currently been used in political speak for at least a decade.
27:46>> Just cuz you have a politics show.
27:47That's the only reason I would say >> you have a politics show. That's why you should know what the Overton window >> fishing or something. I'd be like, keep it about fish, you know?
27:54>> Yeah.
27:54>> I was a better citizen. I would research all these things. MK Ultra and cognitive offloading and astrourfing and and shitification and the shelling point.
28:04And I will I promise I'll bone up on all of them, but not the Overton window.
28:21>> So, you hear his audience applaud like seals for ignorance. It's like he's telling It's like he's in a room full of flat earthers saying that the world is is not round. Yay. Yay. They're clapping like seals. And no wonder they're opinions are all solidly locked around decades old data because they're deliberately training the audience to never move on and keep the old lies alive. Guess what, Bill? That's MK Ultra.
28:47>> Yeah. Well, should I not go to a four-year school to learn what the Overton window is? It's a lot of work, as you know.
28:53>> It is a lot of work. very minor concept of being a the cage of the mind is.
28:58>> So here I just want to remind people when when Bill Maher does not bring on people who are smarter than him or have a critique of his stupidity. And here and here's why. Here was the last time Glenn Greenwald was ever invited on Bill Maher's show. And you tell me if you could what how is the Overton window shifted? Here we go.
29:22>> It's not our fault what came out. We didn't go into Egypt.
29:25>> We wound up with the Muslim brother.
29:26>> We didn't go into Egypt. We were supporting and propping up Mubarak for 30 years. Even as we were cheering for all the Tahir Square demonstrators as though we were on their side, it was our government that kept Mubarak in power just like we've done across the entire Muslim world. And know but and it's amazing for you to say that well look at all these Muslims. The minute you give them a little bit of freedom, they go wild and they start being all violent.
29:47How can you be a citizen of the United States, the country that has generated more violence and militarism in the world over the last five or six decades, and say, "Look at those people over there. They are incredibly violent." We play a significant role in what has been happening in the Middle East because we've been interfering and dominating that region in order to have access to their own.
30:05>> I wasn't talking about violence. I was talking about theocracy. That doesn't happen here.
30:09>> Oh, really? No. Well, okay. That doesn't happen here. But at the same time, Iran isn't invading lots of other countries and occupying them for a decade. nor are fundamentalist Muslim countries the way the United States is. So these things are interlin because we are continuously interfering in that part of the world.
30:25And so to say >> it's all our fault.
30:26>> It's not all our fault. But when you send your military for six straight decades into other countries to bomb them, kill their children and women and innocent men dictator. Yeah. You take responsibility for your actions and say to the extent of that region >> that religion goes back a thousand years before our revolution. So I don't think we can take all the blame. I don't think we should. I think we should take a lot of it. And there's lots of bodies and corpses that have been piled up in the name of Christianity and Judaism as well.
30:55>> Not recently.
30:56>> Have you heard of the occupation of the West Bank and and Gaza for the last 50 years motivated in part by extremist views of Judaism or the wars in Europe or the fact that there were generals in the United States saying we have to go and invade and destroy Iraq, a country of 26 million people, because our God is bigger. Lots of religions, not just Islam, produce violence. If I could just make one quick point about Egypt.
31:17>> A silly liberal view that all religions are alike because it makes you feel good.
31:22>> No, it makes you feel good to say our side is better. The people over there crown on your head and say, "I'm a good person. How do I >> You get You get to ignore the responsibility that your own government has for the violence and instability in the world by saying, "Look, it's that primitive religion over there that's to blame."
31:35>> All right. It's time for >> All right. I'm never having someone on who's smart again. Okay. It's always going to be Pablum spewers, establishment hacks, and people who are are so neoconservative that they make me look like a lefty. That's what's on his show. And whenever someone who actually is on the left or actually is not a neocon comes on his show, they destroy him just like that. Crystal Ball was able to destroy him on his own show.
32:02Yeah.
32:02>> Which is why he's not which which is why she hasn't been back on.
32:06>> Oh, I guess you're the most moral person in the world. Oh, look at me. I don't go to prostitutes constantly. I guess I'm Mr. Morals.
32:13>> So, these these are the kind of people.
32:15This is who he had on that show. These were his other guests. So, he could look like a a progressive hip cool lefty, but he's not right. He's a neocon, right-wing Zionist maniac, bloodthirsty.
32:29>> Theocracy, Jimmy. I hate theocracy except for one.
32:32>> So, here's Yeah, except for one. Here's the people who are on his show. Brett Stevens, he's a Pulitzer Prizewinning opinion columnist for the New York Times. And Gileian Tet, she's a columnist for the Financial Times. You want to know the last article that Brett Stevens just wrote for the New York Times? 20 years on, I don't regret supporting the Iraq war. That's the kind of people he brings on his show. The other columnist says, uh, how bots could help revive democracy. These are the people he brings on his show. So he could look like the hip, smart, cool person because he has to bring on creatins and neocons so he does so he
33:13doesn't look like the Neanderthal he actually is. That's Bill Maher's game.
33:18But Bill, thank you so much for putting me on your show and showing me talk about how dumb you are because you don't know what the WF is. You don't understand what globalism is. You don't know who actually runs the world because what you say is, "Well, I read the papers." Yeah, that's why you're so ignorant and misinformed. You know the people who read the paper who don't read the papers are uninformed. People who do like you are misinformed. He will always cl he'll always quote well it's not in the papers. I read the I read three papers a day. I read the New York Times.
33:53The LA Times the Washington P. And that's what he thinks is news. Ladies and gentlemen, he doesn't also, >> which is why he has a show on establishment TV because if he actually knew anything, he wouldn't have that show. He'd be relegated to YouTube like we are and like Glenn Greenwald is and like the Grey Zone is and everybody else in between. What you want to say something?
34:17>> I don't know what bots are, okay? I just know they would help democracy. Uh I like the Brett Stevens guy. Why I don't regret supporting the Iraq war 20 years later? uh is is the answer because you didn't lose a limb over it.
34:30>> Yeah, probably.
34:31>> That's probably why.
34:32>> So, thank you again, Bill Mar. We have to get I wish I could talk about this all day, but let's see. We have to go.
34:37We have a guest coming on.
34:38>> I don't have enough room in my brain.
34:40Okay.
34:40>> Okay. I don't have enough room in my brain to to understand why. Oh, that by the way, that video he did with Glenn Greenwell. He goes, "Yeah, well, not lately. We've been chalking up by Are you kidding?" So, that was right before Israel started doing a genocide. Well, it was about 10 years before. Not lately. He had a show complaining about how we were doing that back when he he sounded like he knew something.
35:01>> Yeah. That back be when they kicked him off ABC. He got his mind right.
35:05>> And he'll never say anything honest about Muslims. He'll never say anything honest about uh uh what's happening in Israel, Palestine, the greater Israel project.
35:15>> Each religion except one religion for some reason. And >> it's funny. It's cuz religion causes all the violence. Does it build?
35:22>> Israel is their whole justification for Israel's existence is the Bible.
35:27>> But it keeps the Jews safe. You have to admit that.
35:30>> Yeah. Okay. All right. We got to go. We got to get Ray McGovern on. I'll be right back.
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37:49Ladies and gentlemen, very excited to bring back our next guest, Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst who served for 27 years under seven presidents from JFK to George Herbert Walker Bush. He's best known for co-founding Veterans Intelligence Professionals for Sanity in 2003 to expose the falsified intelligence used to justify the Iraq war and for returning his intelligence commenation medal in 2006 in protest of the CIA's use of torture. Today he is a political activist and writer who leads the speaking truth to power section of the Church of the Savior of Washington DC. Please welcome back to the show Ray
38:27McGovern. Hi Ray. Thanks Jimmy. Good to be back.
38:31>> And I see you all the time on Judge Npalitano show. So let me give you a Judge Npalitano welcome my good friend Ray Governor Governor. I appreciate you.
38:39You always make time for our show.
38:40Thanks for accommodating my schedule and you always have great insight and I appreciate you bringing your analytics with it. Please please play go safe sir.
38:48>> Okay.
38:49>> I forgot to mention my my gold ring.
38:51>> Oh what is that? Tell me about that.
38:54>> No it's just my college ring but >> Okay.
38:56>> But that show sells a lot of gold. Oh, that show does sell. It moves a lot of gold. Uh, well, today is the So, we're we're we're around the 20 year anniversary of when you confronted Donald Rumsfeld, the one of the best liars in the business. Uh, and one of the best wararm mongers. Uh, you confronted him. Uh, and it I I want to play that now. Should Can I play it now?
39:23We could talk about it or do you want to set it up anyway? Well, let me just say that I was down in Atlanta uh to receive an award, a national civil liberties union award for that year and I I was told all of a sudden that uh Rumstro was in Atlanta same day I was and I was not really occupied till the evening when I spoke at that dinner with the awards ceremony. So they said we can wangle you a ticket. these very progressive women who were in contact with people I know.
39:55So, they got me a ticket, 65 bucks it was, but and I paid them back, but it was worth the show because it was prime time. It was 1:00 in the afternoon. Uh, this was a almost exclusively white southern proar male uh, little think tank where they thought Ramsalt was completely safe and had good reason to believe because I got in on the flu. I got in because they pirated a a ticket for me. Anyhow, >> oh, okay.
40:30>> That's it. So he was not expecting me, but he decided that I was some punk that he could certainly debate with. So uh the rest is in in the in the video if you have it there.
40:41>> So let's So let's play it. This is about three three or four minutes long. It's worth the listen. Let's listen.
40:50>> I'm Ray McGovern, a 27-year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency and co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
41:00I would like to uh compliment you on your uh observation that lies are fundamentally destructive of the trust that government needs to govern. A colleague of mine, Paul Pillar, who is the top agency analyst on the Middle East and on counterterrorism, accused you and your colleagues of an organized campaign of manipulation.
41:23Quote, I suppose by some definition that be called a lie. Atlanta, September 27th, 2002. Donald Rumsfeld said, and I quote, "There is bulletproof evidence of links between al Qaeda and the government of President Saddam Hussein.
41:42Was that a lie, Mr. Rumsfeld, or was that manufactured somewhere else?"
41:46Because all of my CIA colleagues disputed that and so did the 9/11 commission. And so I would like to to ask you to be upfront with the American people. Why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary and that has caused these kinds of casualties? Why?
42:04>> Well, first of all, >> first of all, the boozen tells us that this is a whole lot of people in the audience who rely on one single source of income, if you know what I'm talking about. Okay, here we go.
42:15>> But that was by the way, you should your name should be Buster McLights out. That was nice. That was very nice.
42:21>> I I haven't lied. I did not lie then.
42:33Colon Powell didn't lie.
42:37He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate. And he presented that to the United Nations. The president spent weeks and weeks with the central intelligence people and he went to the American people and made a presentation. I'm not in the intelligence business.
43:01They gave >> Well, first of all, let me stop it there, too. Of course, the defense department has their own intelligence week. Are you kidding me? There's called military intelligence, which used to be the old joke. That's an oxymoron. Of course, the the Pentagon has its own intelligence wing. It's not just the CIA. Is that correct, Ray? of course that that the defense department spends more on intelligence than the CIA and other other uh agencies.
43:30>> So while while being called out for lying us into a war, he has to rely on another even bigger lie. Okay, here we go. I'll keep going. I'll try not to stop it.
43:38>> The world their honest opinion. It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction. It appears >> you said you knew where they were.
43:49>> I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and we were just >> You said you knew where they were. Near Titrit, near Baghdad and northeast, south and west of there. Those are your words.
44:00>> My words My words were that No, no, no. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.
44:09>> Just a second. Indeed. Rumsfeld's words about WMD March 30th, 2003 on ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos were quote, "We know where they are. They're in the area around Toree and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat.
44:27>> This is America, huh?
44:34>> You're getting plenty of play, sir.
44:36>> I just like an honest answer.
44:38>> I'm giving it to you. We're talking about lies and your your allegation that there was bulletproof evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq.
44:45>> Did Rumsfeld make that allegation?
44:48Indeed, he did. September 27th, 2002 to the Chamber of Commerce right there in Atlanta, quoting, "We ended up with five or six sentences that were bulletproof.
44:58We could say them. They're factual.
45:00They're exactly accurate. They demonstrate that there are in fact al-Qaeda in Iraq, but they're not photographs. They're not beyond a reasonable doubt. Still, Mr. Rumsfeld again had to face his own words quoted back to him. How to do that? Change the subject.
45:17>> Was that a lie or were you misled?
45:19>> Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the pre-war period.
45:25>> That is a fact.
45:28>> Zarqawi, he was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule. He was also he was also in Baghdad.
45:36>> Yeah. when he needed to go to the hospital. Come on. These people aren't idiots. They know the story.
45:42>> You are. Let let me let me give you an example. It's easy for you to make a charge. Um, but why do you think that the men and women in uniform every day when they came out of Kuwait and went into Iraq put on chemical weapon protective suits because they liked the uh the style.
46:05They honestly believed that there were chemical weapons. Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons on his own people previously. He'd used them on his neighbor, the Iranians. And they believed he had those weapons. We believed he had those weapons.
46:20>> That's what we call a nonsequator. It doesn't matter what the troops believe.
46:23It matters what you believe.
46:24>> I think Mr. Secretary, the debate is over. We have other questions courtesy to the audience >> in the aftermath.
46:32>> So there you go. Uh well done, sir. I think you know you should be president.
46:36You got govern in your name already.
46:40>> Well, my uncle George would be proud of me.
46:43Uh it's the the almost more you expect Rumsfeld to change the subject, move the goalpost, lie, but the audience uh what C could can what what would you think when you were walking out of that place?
46:59>> Well, it's really interesting, Jimmy, because I was a little bit in shock because I knew C-SPAN CNN was all live, >> right?
47:08>> 2 o'clock in the afternoon. It had to be news that night, you know. I thought, "My god, McGovern." So, I get a call.
47:15Uh, I get a call on on my cell phone.
47:18Hello, Mr. McGovern. Yeah. Uh, this is Anderson Cooper.
47:24So, I said, "Oh, hi, Anderson. Well, you're causing quite a stir down here in Atlanta. Uh, I'd like to have you on my program, but I have to ask you a question first." I said, "Sure.
47:34Weren't you afraid?"
47:37Now, I said to myself, Jimmy, uh, well, yeah, that's a normal question. Then I thought, whoa, this guy is heir to the Vanderbilt fortune. He's not going to be out on the streets of Atlanta with his hat out collecting coin. So, I said, look, I'll be I'll be straight with you, Anderson. It was a real high. I I prepared some questions, real tough questions for you. You You might want to try that sometime. prepare real questions and get the guy to to either lie or you you'll really enjoy. Well, that's very well and good. I'll have my people get in contact with your people.
48:14No, no, don't do that. Don't do that.
48:17Why not? Why not? I don't have many people. I don't have any. Just Just give me a call back or have one of your people. You have people call me back.
48:26So, I went on the show. This is I mean this is a teaching point for I went on the show about two hours later right live first question he asked Jimmy guess what >> weren't you afraid >> weren't you afraid >> and I said to myself holy this guy doesn't get it you know you know a journalist is supposed to ask real questions and he was he's afraid they're all afraid and and when Paula had me on later that night she He said, "No, Mr.
48:58McGovern, how long have you had this animist toward the Secretary of Defense?" I said, "Aanist? You mean asking him questions? Mean I have." He said, "Well, you followed him down there to to Atlanta." I said, "Well, actually, Paul, I was there first. He gave down later. I was so, you know, it went downhill from there. I thought maybe I'd get a little exposure for having exposed Rumsfeld.
49:23It was not so even then the per even after no weapons of mass destruction were found even after the ties with al-Qaeda was shown to be contrived in the result of torture even then the press was not coming around um it was pretty distressing but we kept on just as you keep on uh trying to spread some truth around.
49:48Well, you know, of course CNN always, you know, hires those street tough reporters. You know, a guy who's a grew up at Vanderbilt on the tough streets of Saks Fifth Avenue.
50:00I mean, of course, he's going to ask you, "Aren't you afraid?" Because his whole their corporate media news hosts, their whole life is about being afraid to offend their bosses, be afraid to offend their advertisers. That's the whole thing. That's why we never get the truth about a war. We never get the truth about Israel. And we never got the truth about COVID or Russia Gate or Seth Rich or anything. That's why because he lives in fear and that's why that's why he got hired. If he actually thought like you, he would never have got hired, right?
50:30>> Yeah. You know, it's still I still don't understand that you're filthy rich, right? And you're smart. So why can you bend your mind around so that you're a slave to the to the institutions to the to the so-called mainstream media? I still don't get it. I mean I thought I had embarrassed him with telephone call and then he asked me why you afraid the first thing on on the interview. So there are afraid and I don't understand it but you explained it as as well as anyone else to me.
51:00>> Okay. All right. Well, let's move on.
51:03Um, so recently CNN has come out and actually done some reporting.
51:09Unfortunately, it's about 60 days late, but uh, as Glenn Greenwald says there, uh, so here's CNN. At least 15 American military sites have been damaged and in the Iranian strikes making up the majority of US positions in the Middle East. That's May 1st they came out, right? And I'm going to show you the video they put out in a second. Glenn says there's now good journalism on the major destruction imposed by Iran on most regional US military bases using sophisticated and precise weapons, but again, those whose understanding of the Iran war comes from Fox and the White House and Trump influencers have no idea
51:45this is happening. So, it took it took about 60 days for CNN to actually report this. And here's what they reported. And I want to get your reaction to this.
51:54Camp Buring, Kuwait.
51:57American soldiers enjoying a karaoke night at one of the biggest US military hubs in the Gulf. That was then.
52:05This is now a once bustling American micro city in the desert, nearly empty and heavily damaged after a week's long barrage of Iranian missiles and drones.
52:16One of many US military facilities in the oil richch Arabian Peninsula targeted by Iran. even as the US and Israel pummeled the Islamic Republic's large arsenal.
52:27So, what impact have Iran strikes had on America's footprint in the Middle East?
52:31A CNN investigation found evidence of unprecedented destruction. We can reveal that strikes damaged at least 16 US installations across eight countries.
52:42According to our analysis and sourcing, that's the majority of American military positions in the region, and some of them are virtually unusable. Now, a US source familiar with the situation told us that they'd never seen anything like this at American bases. That these were rapid targeted strikes using it technology. Iran's main targets, multi-million dollar aircraft like this Boeing E3 Century, which gave the US a huge amount of visibility over the Gulf.
53:11It's out of production, and in today's money, it's worth nearly half a billion dollars.
53:16>> Critical communications equipment. Look at these giant golf balls. They're known as ray domes, and they protect satellite dishes vital for data transmission. In this space alone, Iran destroyed all but one of the ray domes less than a month into the war. And crucially, radar systems, highly sophisticated, expensive, difficult to replace, and critical to air defense. A second US source, this one a congressional aid familiar with damage assessments, described these as the most cost effective of the targets. Our radar systems, they said, are our mostive and our most li limited resource in the region. For US allies in the region,
53:55there's a dilemma. In some ways, Iran's show of force makes the US's presence in the region even more necessary to Gulf security. But there's a new reality here, which is that US military installations, previously seen as formidable fortresses, have turned into sitting targets. As a Saudi source told me, the war has shown Saudi Arabia, that's the US's longest standing Arab ally, that the alliance with the US cannot be exclusive and it is not, in their words, impregnable.
54:27To get a sense of just how vulnerable US facilities have become, have a look at this. It's the war room at Qatar's Eard Air Base, the theater command and control hub for US air power across 21 nations. struck not just once but twice and according to a US source causing significant damage. The base had been largely evacuated at this point and no casualties were reported. Iran's visibility over its targets has never been clearer. In 2024, according to the Financial Times, Tehran secretly acquired a Chinese satellite known as the TE01B, a massive upgrade from its own satellites. That means that Tehran went
55:07from looking at images of this quality to this. This is the first time America has fought an adversary with satellites that capture high-res imagery almost as detailed as its own.
55:19As the scale of the damage comes into focus, many will wonder whether America's presence once a protective shield in the Middle East has turned into its Achilles heel.
55:30Now, uh, Rey, uh, let let me just get your your reaction to this. To my reaction is that of course the military lied about this and that this was a tried they tried to cover it up and it works because the news media in the United States is owned by the military-industrial complex and the banks which do all the wars. But anyway, so what what is your reaction to this report that came out 60 days too late?
55:55Well, well, Jimmy, it's it's Iran's fault for placing its country right in the middle of all these US military bases. I mean, let's face it, you know, I mean, if the president was not told that the Iranians were going to hit our bases if we attacked uh he he ought to he ought to get a new uh arms forces advisors. Uh if he was not told that the Iranians would close the straight of Hormuz, well, he's flying blind. Uh I made a big mistake of applying logic to all this before the war started and I reasoned that oh my god they have to know they close straight they have to know that these these bases are are
56:35vulnerable so they won't attack Iran.
56:38How wrong I Yeah. How wrong I was. And you know I could be wrong again but I think maybe maybe we're okay for the next couple of weeks for two reasons.
56:49Puchin has weighed in very heavily an hour and a half with the president just a couple of days ago in which he warned look uh this would be completely unacceptable if you continue on this this road particularly if you put ground troops in there completely unacceptable the Russian words are are the strongest you can use in diplomatic discourse and number two if Trump wants to go to China which he does you uh what's that 10 days away he's not going to go to China if he resumes this attack on now there are firefights today but I don't think the ceasefire has completely dissipated or ended and I I think that we may be safe for another
57:35two weeks but that applies logic to Trump and that's a big mistake as I learned right at the beginning before the attack on February 28th let me add one other thing Jimmy that most people say oh My god, there was no plan. There was no real, you know, no strategy.
57:53What? Well, yeah, there was a strategy.
57:56Do whatever BB Netanyahu tells you to do. I mean, it was explained by our Secretary of State/ National Security Adviser Rubio when he said, and I quote, "The Israelis told us they were going to attack Iran, and we thought that they would probably retaliate against us."
58:17And so we preemptively moved against them so that when they retaliate against us, we wouldn't suffer such terrible losses.
58:27Hello, Joe Kent. What did he say? He said there was no imminent threat. It was the Israelis both in Israel and our guy or Israeli supporters in Washington that started this war. He's in a position to know these things. I admire his courage. So if if Americans are are kind of wondering what the strategy and all there is no strategy because it's a knee-jerk reaction to what Netanyahu sort of started and I'm sure that it was pre pre-arranged but uh he he forced the uh Trump's hand and it's going to come to a no good end as the Chinese would say unless somebody like maybe the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff
59:09would talk some sense into Trump. This is a guy, and this is kind of a hopeful note, uh Tony Aguilar. I don't know if you've interviewed him.
59:19>> We know. We've had him on our show for sure.
59:21>> Yeah. Well, just a couple of days ago, he said, "I know I know General Kaine. I worked with him every day.
59:28>> He's the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, >> right?" Yeah. He says, uh, you know, there was one instance where Trump issued a, uh, uh, truth social tweet and said, uh, we're leaving. We're pulling out of Syria right now. And then he was going to send the secretary of defense into Syria to talk to the rest of us who were there in that one of those bases.
59:50And now he couldn't come. So Trump came himself. And there's sort of a council of war around a table. All two star, three star generals. And then General Kane want star. Now by pre-arrangement Tony Tony Aguilar and General Kaine had decided well look you know we got to we got to make sure the president knows what's going to happen if we just pull out of there. Okay people get killed a lot of us a lot of our troops and billions of dollars worth of So they had a little plan and it was in uh uh General Kane's pocket. So after all these guys said yes sir sounds a great idea uh Kane pipes up and says uh Mr.
60:32President, we know that you want to get out as quickly as possible. There's another way of doing this which would really lessen these these casualties and loss of material and actually I have a little and president says, "Oh, I'd like to hear about that." So, he drags out this pre-arranged little sketch and he said, "You know, this week we could hear, you know, just give us a couple more weeks and we won't suffer many casualties." Says, "What's your name?"
60:59Cain. And he says, "Yeah." "What's your first name?" "Raisin."
61:03"You mean like raisin that you eat?"
61:05"No, I'm a fighter pilot." Raisin Kane.
61:09Oh man, did that impress Trump. Next thing you know, Kane out of uniform to be, you know, honest here at Andrews Air Force Base appears with a MAGA hat on. You know, talk about sealing your fate. He's promoted from a one star at let's one two or three star. He's taken out of the National Guard into the regular Air Force given another star and all of a sudden bending the rules he becomes chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I always thought that was highly irregular and probably bad. But we have this example where he stood up and said to the president, "Look, uh we could do a better we could we could do a better
61:51plan than this." So, um Tony, uh agrees that this is a ray of hope that he knows by personal experience being there for a whole year with General Kaine and seeing him face up with all these two stars and three stars. Oh, outstanding idea. Uh we're faced up to them. So I'm hopeful that he and the and the military the the admiral who runs Sentcom and his subordinate commands have to know how perilous this would be if they landed troops or even if they continued this damn war. So with the losses that we've already accepted or suffered because of the basis and for everything else uh I think uh Trump will huff and puff and
62:37I'm in a minority here. I think he'll huff and puff, but if he wants to go to China and if he heeds the Russian warning, now the Russian warning was very strong. Uh, as a matter of fact, the Russians took the initiative and called him. That's rare. Usually when they talk, Trump initiates the conversation and it went for an hour and a half and the readout was very very strong saying look we warned the president that is the Russians warned the president that this would be a very very bad idea very dangerous not only to Iran but to its neighbors. Oh by the way we're a neighbor and there's a little
63:13Caspian sea between us but we're a neighbor. We worry about Iran. So that that business plus the completely unacceptable phrasiology persuades me that uh that Trump is going to have to take this seriously just as he did. You may remember this Jimmy in October of last year. Remember Zalinski was coming and Trump was saying we're going to give him tomahawks for sure. We're going to give him tomahawks unless Putin ends this damn thing in Ukraine. So what happens? Well, 3 days later, Poutine calls Trump. He says, "Now, this is really not a good idea. Really, really not a good idea, Tomahawks, and he hangs
63:56up 2 and 1/2 hours that time." Okay. And what happens? Sinski comes the next day, 17th of October, and Trump says, "Sorry, but we really need those tomahawks all by ourselves. You know, we're we're running short, so you're not going to get any tomahawks." Now that's that's a precedent for what I hope is having is going to h going to obtain right now. Uh Putin took the initiative one and a half hours this time. Pretty tough readout of what he said. And then there were you know sweeteners like oh we really admire Melania your wife your good wife who has such does such good work at putting displaced children and so forth
64:39together. And by the way, way to go dodging that bullet. Another bullet. And you know, so there were nice little things tucked in there. That's called diplomacy. And diplom diplomacy specifically targeted to a guy like uh well to a narcissist like Trump. They have a pretty decent relationship. Last thing I'll say is that they said we did agree on Ukraine. We both we both agreed that the Europeans are the fly in the ointment. And of course, Zalinski is is the worst and they're supporting him. So you have the US and the Russians agreeing that Zalinski is is the fly in the Europeans supporting him. So you
65:21know that these are realities. We used to read this, at least I used to read this stuff really carefully. And from the Soviet side and from the Russian side, I could discern these differences and make some sense out of them trying to analyze or trying to apply rules of logic to Trump is a fool's errand.
65:40That's why I thought that there would be this war.
65:43So, you're saying that that to to to to be an optimist and have hope, you're hinging it on the Putin phone call and you're hinging it on the Joint Chiefs of Staff Kaine doing the smart thing and not allowing Trump to restart this war.
65:59That that's that's basically the two things you're you're you're pinning your hopes on.
66:02>> That's right, Jimmy. Plus the China trip.
66:05>> Plus the China trip. Correct.
66:06>> I think Trump really wants to go to China. It's really interesting because Puchin is going to go to China right after Trump does. So we have a graphic illustration of how the old the old trilateral relationship Russia, China, the US which used to be kind of equilateral if you remember J. Yeah.
66:28>> Now it's isosles with Russia, China on the long end of the stick and the US catching the short end of the stick. The two of them are virtual allies and they're stronger than the United States. And the sooner somebody tells Trump that, the better for all of us.
66:48Well, um, do you do you feel that Russia and China it's it's in their interest very much so to not let Iran fall because if Iran falls, it's really bad news for them.
67:04>> They will not let Iran fall. That's the new reality. Do they have the capability? Yes, they have the capability. The Russians are given all kinds of intelligence and other support to the Iranians. You know, I could just see Trump asking Putin, what about that uh what about the intelligence support you're going to Iranians and Putin saying, u karma, karma, karma, what are you doing in Ukraine? How are you enabling those proliferating uh attacks deep into Russia by these drones? My god. Uh just today Putin or the Russians warned, "Look, we're going to have the Mayday celebrations in the 8th and the 9th of May, and you better
67:50not try to mess around with them uh Ukraine because if you do, you'll have a a large attack retaliatory in the middle of Kief. So don't even think about it."
68:03Now, I was there last year, the 80th celebration.
68:08Roger Stone asked me to come with him and we were there sitting in the pretty good seats and uh and we were kind of rem reminded of how labil how delicate the situation was because we went down to Sochi for several days to meet with other high dignitaries and it took us 5 hours. 5 hours. Now I asked hey it's an hour and a half from Moscow to Sochi.
68:35Yeah, we have to go almost to China to come around down to the south of Sochi because it's it's really very dangerous what the Ukrainians might do. After all, they tried to shoot down Putoutin's plane at one point and they did shoot at one of his residences there near Valdai.
68:53So, what I'm saying here is the Russians are very sensitive to what the Ukrainians can do and it's karma because they couldn't do it and Putin has said this explicitly. They couldn't possibly do these things without the technology, without the intelligence, and all that kind of stuff that the US provides that enables these drones and these other missiles to hit their targets. So, would you agree with this? I saw this on Twitter today. So, uh, just going back to CNN's coverage of what Iran did at the start of the war. Uh, this is what it looked like. all the United States bases. I don't, you know, the Gaul of
69:31Iran to put their country right in the middle of all our military bases, but this is what it looked like after they wiped out most of that. That's pretty accurate. Would you agree or no?
69:41>> Well, yeah, it uh Well, yeah. Uh that's what happened. And you know, the deal here, Jimmy, is that uh CNN reporting out of Israel has been great, right? No.
69:55Has there been any?
69:56>> No.
69:56>> No. Why? because it's censored. Okay.
69:59What's happening as a result of the hypersonic missiles that Iran has shot already into Israel? And what should Israel expect with the sort of the big supply of such missiles that Iran could use? I think uh that the Russians and the Chinese are are leaning hard on the Iranians. Look, don't obliterate, pardon the word, uh, Israel just now. They could resort to the Samson option. They could they could say in dire straits that they would, uh, they could actually do it without even asking in the US. So, let's tamp this thing down. Uh, save those missiles for a while. see if we could talk some sense into Trump because
70:45if Trump does finally lean on the Israelis, then there's some chance the Israelis, even in dire straits, will not do the worst. That's what I think they're really concerned about, that Netanyahu would resort to using some of those nuclear weapons. Well, here's how bad of a beating the United States took militarily at the beginning of the war and the e and the the cost to our supply and to our bases. Um, present value and repair replacement costs based on 25-year outlays. It's going to cost us 44 to74 billion to fix the stuff that they blew up. This is uh this is one of 16 bomb bases. Thad and Patriot losses
71:30not included. Plenty of unknowns and assumptions. Qatar infrastructure but not runway status known. It's going to take 24 to$34 billion and 5 years to rebuild. Also equipment 20 to40 billion uh uh 5 to8 years to rebuild classified NSA NRO CIA ground systems unknown.
71:52Total Qatar and USA 44 to77 billion dollars and 10 years to rebuild. Bottom line guesstimate a trillion dollars for all of those 16 bases. And they and by the way they ain't getting rebuilt. So that's the that's how bad it was. And of course Hegathth and Trump and his administration did not want this publicized. They don't want people to know just how badly this war is going for the United States. Trump it repeatedly says, "We hold out all the cards." The cards are all held by Iran, are they not?
72:27>> Yeah. And they've got a straight.
72:29>> That's right.
72:31They've got a straight. And Trump's got a pair of deuces.
72:36>> Yeah. So, I want to play this for you.
72:38Uh this is David Pine. He's the deputy executive director for the task force on national and uh homeland security. And here he's going to talk about the because I see a lot of people on Twitter and a lot of people everywhere who are supporting Trump in this war. They keep saying that Iran is done. They're out of missiles. They've got nothing. We're we wiped them out. We Trump says we wiped them out militarily. Well, listen to what David Pine has to say.
73:04>> Well, we've heard that about 13 US out of 19 US military bases in the region uh have been destroyed or rendered unusable. I think that's likely accurate. Uh so uh the cost to rebuild those would run into the several billion if not tens of billions of dollars. Uh and that would take years to rebuild. Uh >> I mean how could that have happened? I mean you you know a lot of people now saying they have a newfound respect for General Kaine, chair of the joint chief of staff. I mean that's a 13 bases destroyed and rendered unusable. Aren't you shocked?
73:30>> I'm not shocked at all. I mean uh those bases were located, you know, pretty close to Iran. Iran is is a tremendous, you know, it's it's essentially a missile regional power, even superpower.
73:38They have a vast uh number of missiles likely greater number of missiles even than the United States has in terms of ballistic missiles and cruise missiles and uh heavy combat drones. Certainly the US has a lot of light to medium shorter range drones. We have superiority over Iran in that area. But uh you know they have uh some of the best combat large combat drones uh in the world and they were able to you know destroy uh some of our bases using uh using combat drones because uh the US uh you know drone defense capabilities are you know not what they should have been and the US prioritized missile defense
74:11for Israel rather than than our Gulf allies. So we we showed that the US military guarantee over our Gulf allies uh was really you know very shoddy and and unreliable.
74:20So, do you agree with that statement that Israel uh that Iran has plenty of missiles left that they haven't used and that uh it it it's a we we totally screwed up?
74:31>> Yes. Yes. I mean, it's really pretty clear. Um uh the American people don't know this.
74:41I just hope Trump knows this. Uh because the the Iranians have an inexhaustible supply of these missiles. They create them. They produce them themselves underneath mountains for God's sake. And and so unless people come to their senses, the Iranians have the capability of sinking a carrier. I don't think they want to do that. Uh that would force Trump's hand. Now, the fil answer on expenditures, of course, is no problem.
75:13Well, borrow that from the Chinese.
75:16Well, no more. And the dollar is going down and gasoline is going up and all kinds of things are breaking out. There are no more oil shipments to Europe for God's sake. Uh there haven't been for 5 days.
75:32That's how long it takes for an oil shipment. So, things are pretty bad.
75:36whether Trump will wise up and say, "Well, this wasn't really good idea uh or not." I hope he does in time, but as I say, I've been real lousy in predicting what Trump can do. I think I know what the Russians are going to do if they're pushed beyond uh their patience. So, I just want to uh bring you let's let's talk about what's happening right now. So last week, um, Iran said they're going to remove the US blockade by military force. Former foreign minister, excuse me, Madaki says a naval blockade means a declaration of war. So when Trump was doing the naval blockade on the straight, they're saying, well, this
76:19is you're not abiding by the ceasefire.
76:21This is actually an act of war, and our fighters may act as soon as tomorrow or next week, which is right now. This is extremely bad for the markets. Here is uh uh Pekkian saying the world has witnessed Iran's tolerance and consiliation. What is being done under the guise of naval blockade is an extension of military operations against a nation paying the price for its resistance and independence.
76:46Continuation of this oppressive approach is intolerable. Here's the Ayatollah saying a new chapter for the Persian Gulf and the Straight of Hormuz is unfolding. Iran's new management of the straight of Hormuz and the corresponding legal framework will secure comfort and progress for the benefit of all the nations of the region. And so they're not messing around. They're really make so if Trump restarts this war they're going to go well and now the reports today is saying that Iran has struck some ships. Let's listen the >> state media that a US warship has turned back from the area of the straight of
77:22Hormuz and that according to Iran's Navy, it's prevented the entry of US warships into the Horus area according to state television going on to add that two missiles hit a US warship uh near Jas Island after it ignored Iranian warnings. Now, this is being reported by the Fars news agency. That's state media in Iran. I cannot at this moment independently verify that for you, but this is what we're hearing from the Iranians. We've not had any response as yet from the Americans or the White House or Donald Trump on Truth Social.
77:59I'm sure we will either get their version of events or a counter claim uh in due course. But at the moment, at this time, Iran is claiming via state media, the Fars news agency, that two missiles have hit a US warship near Jas Island after that warship allegedly ignored Iranian warnings. It says, according to local sources, far as news agency, the warship turned back from the area and Iran's Navy is being cited as saying by state media that it's prevented the entry of warships in the straight of Hmer's area. That's according to details being broadcast on state television. This comes of course as Donald Trump has said that the United
78:39States would look to undertake an operation that would ease the passage of the um commercial vessels through the straight. If you look at this map we're showing you at the moment, the straight of is is that kind of peak of of the curve there between Oman and um the the the coastline of Iran. on either side of those dots are the vessels that are at anchor. Donald Trump saying that 15,000 US troops will be utilized to enable the passage of these vessels. He's claims that it's for humanitarian bases, although uh analysts and and experts claim that there's perhaps a different rationale behind that.
79:20>> So the United States has responded. The Sencom says that that didn't happen.
79:25Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps said, it says that's false. US Navy ships have been uh no US Navy ships have been struck. US forces are supporting Project Freedom and enforcing the naval blockade on Iranian ports. So, what what is your best guess of what's actually happening?
79:42>> My best guess is that Sentcom is reporting the truth, but only half the truth. uh that Iran uh fired two missiles to interdict uh these these ships the the US ship from going into the straight. It was outside the straight. It was down in the south uh south east of the straight and they prevented the ship from going in there.
80:06Meanwhile, Sentcom is claiming that they some helicopter gunships had decimated five or six patrol boats. Well, you know, these are Evanrude, two Evanrou's on the back of a, you know, patrol boats. They have like a million of them, the Iranians, >> right?
80:23>> I think probably it would be good to try to put this into a broader context. The strait is going to be okay because Arachi, the foreign minister of Iran, went to Oman and said, "Look, let's work out a deal here for God's sake. uh we have to make sure that we are together in regulating this cuz you're in the south and we're in the north and it's not enough to have those big cliffs they can do something to you. So what happened was uh Arashi went to Oman and then he went to Islamabad where they exchanged notes with the US and then he went to Bosow.
80:59>> Yep. And that's when he was met not only by Putin and Lavarov but also by the head of Russian military intelligence Katukov. Now why is that important?
81:13Because this was an overt signal to everyone look you know karma karma remember Ukraine what you guys are doing to support Ukraine we're doing the same thing with our military intelligence outfit to support Iran. Now what came out of that I already explained the Russians are very very firm and as I say when they take the initiative to call Trump they want to make a message to him and that's one thing that gives me some hope that Trump does listen to the strong he likes to listen to strong men right to Putin and if the past president he did exactly the same thing in October and he laid off he said okay no no
81:52tomahawks to uh Ukraine for for Ukraine crane. And now, of course, they've also said that they were pulling 5,000 troops out of Germany and that we're not going to put those intermediate range ballistic missiles in Germany as Biden and Schro the previous chancellor had agreed at a NATO ministerial two years ago. So, that's big. Okay. Trump is out of Ukraine. He's out of NATO. These are these are watershed moments. Nobody understands it. There's supposed to be a NATO summit in Albania of all places.
82:32Yervan, okay. And not Yan, Tana.
82:36Instead, today there was a well not really a NATO summit. It was sort of like a EU expanded for NATO and Zalinski was there and Mattz wasn't there and of course Trump wasn't there. Now, I don't think there's going to be another NATO summit. The last one, you remember when when Matt said, "Oh, where's where's Trump? Oh, there he is. Here, here's daddy. Daddy is finally here. Oh, daddy's here." Well, daddy turned out to be a dead beat.
83:06>> Right, Jimmy? Yeah. Doesn't pay alimony.
83:08Doesn't play doesn't pay child support.
83:11And he said, "That's it, folks. We're happy to sell you weapons."
83:16But more recently, just this week, the US has said, "Sorry, we can't even sell you guys any weapons because whatever weapons we produce are going to go right into the Iran theater, and we're even drawing weapons from Asia to do that.
83:31So, you're going to be not next in line, you'll be third in line." So, what's the this is the the watershed moment here.
83:39NATO is no more. ah >> it's going to take a while for the Europeans to realize that okay that without the US NATO is is feckless okay but when they realize that and when their people sort of rebel at the at the curtailment of their social benefits they're going to say well maybe we don't have to sp spend so much on defense maybe this is a fool's errand and maybe there's not so much of it oh did somebody tell me that the Soviet Union fell in port and that they're not trying to take over Europe anymore. Against that, you have people especially in the Baltics and Poland who who are died in the wool cold war people and love when
84:25Biden said in his last inaugural and this is a quote.
84:30Anyone in this room think that Putin will stop in Ukraine or or Poland or or the Baltics? Well, anybody? No. Anybody?
84:41No, no, no, sir. Well, he did stop. And this is the message I'd like to tell you. He stopped six weeks into that damn war. They had an agreement. Ukraine would not go into NATO. There would be a ceasefire. They talk about the rest of it later. It was agreed between Putin's representatives and the representatives that were working for Zalinski at the time. It was it was initialed. But what happened was the US and Boris Johnson from the UK came in and said, "No, no, don't do that. Uh, don't cast your lot with them. Come with us. Uh, we want to kind of weaken Russia. And by the way, we'll stay with you for as long as it
85:23takes." And now, Jimmy, it's as long as it takes.
85:27>> Yeah. It's over. Uh, so that's a that's actually a good thing I think that Trump pulls out of NATO and um and and it weakens the because there's a lot of crazy wararm mongers right now in Europe. They want to ramp up the war with Russia via visa v Ukraine and Trump pulling out as you just described is the death nail for them because uh they don't have the resources that we do and they're already their economy is hurting because of the Nordstream pipeline and um so I think that's a great thing and so I do I hear you saying that there might be an end to this Ukraine war coming because Trump is pulling out of
86:05NATO? Well, it by the end of the year, I expect that the Russians will have moved and taken over the rest of the net and the other two pro other three provinces.
86:16Uh, but more worrying, Jimmy, is what's happening in Germany right now. I was talking to some very well-informed, sophisticated Germans just a couple hours ago.
86:28Uh, they have become a totalitarian state. They have been brainwashed.
86:35Everybody's afraid to say anything. It reminds me very much of the history books that I read about the Third Reich in the 30s, how the Germans could have stopped this. They had the majority in the in the in the livestock and they just were too afraid. And when I asked my friends, can you speak out? No, we can't speak out anymore. It's too dangerous. Uh what about the IFA, the uh the alternative, the hard hard party there that everybody's afraid of? Well, uh they're going to have the majority in the next elections, the state elections and other elections. So what will happen then?
87:18Well, uh, nobody knows for sure, but there's a very, very big turmoil in Germany right now. They think that they should build up and become the, you got it, the strongest army in Europe again, right?
87:32>> Oh boy.
87:33>> And guess what? When I joined the CIA, there was a Glavny Vra, okay? Main enemy. That was Russia, right? And we were Russia's Glavni fra.
87:46No more. Last year we lost first place in all the polls, decent polls done in Russia. Guess who's enemy number one on now? The Gavnak Germany.
87:59>> Oh wow.
88:00>> They have a bad bad history with Germany. And uh there has to be some sort of contact between the Germans and the Russians.
88:11There is none now. And the Germans have to wake up and say though, how did that Nordstream pipeline get blown up? I mean, was was Sih right? Well, who's Sai Hersh? They don't even know that he >> sir put the whole thing together years ago. So, yeah, that's the caveat here.
88:31Uh, I hope that the implosion of NATO is a good thing, but to turn the the Germans loose and to have every German pretend that Russia is the same threat it was during the Soviet Union, that spells a lot of trouble.
88:48>> So, one one last question for you, Ray.
88:50Um, so if Trump pulls out of NATO, which it seems like he is, does that allow Israel to attack Turkey?
88:59Because they've been saber rattling and lots of their high officials have been saying they need to Turkey is a problem and of course Turkey is part of the greater Israel project. So doesn't that kind of allow Israel to attack Turkey?
89:12And then the United States, if we're not in NATO, because Turkeykey's in NATO, we don't have to respond against Israel because we're no longer abiding by the NATO charter, right? What do you think of that?
89:23>> Yeah. Well, I think article five of the NATO charter, which obligates each party to come to the rescue of the others or at least go through their parliaments, that that's p no one expects us to to go to war with Russia because Estonia fires some missiles into Moscow or St.
89:40Petersburg. Um, the rest of it is is kind of really complicated. Uh, I forget what your point was.
89:50>> Turkey. Yeah. Uh, the the Israelis are after the Turks, but you know, the Israelis have their their hands full now. Um, they're they're digging out with Turkey and Syria now. They used to get along in Syria, but that's no longer the case. But in my view, um, Turkey is is really strong. The Israelis are not going to bite off more than they can chew there. They've got Lebanon. They've got and the Greater Israel project, you know, goes from the Euphrates to the Nile, but I think Turkey is just above that. You have the Kurds in between. So, yeah, uh, Israel is more and more isolated. I don't think they're going to
90:33go take off after the Turks. The Turks themselves are a problem for NATO because they haven't been they haven't been acting very NATOish. They've been buying sophisticated arms, air defense missiles from Russia. You know, back in the day, uh, when Kissinger was really up in arms because Turkey attacked Cyprus, took over a good quarter of Cyprus and they used US weapons. Okay. And so, oh, there's a big Greek Greek lobby in US Congress. No more arms to Turkey. This is back in 74.
91:16Okay. there's a there's a advantage of being so old. So I was one of the the directors represent. I went down the state department and they said, "Well, we have to get this embargo lifted. This is terrible." And I said, "Well, look at it this way. Maybe there's a there's a ray of light here." Light? I said, "Yeah, well, maybe, you know, if we enforce the law about using US weaponry against some other country without any authorization, maybe the Israelis will will think twice about doing that next time." My god, Jimmy, they all looked at me like I was from Mars. What?
91:55>> Of course.
91:56>> What?
91:58>> So, McGovern didn't get it, you know. I still don't get it, but I think I understand it a little better. But that's how I had these personal experiences where the deep state and and the bureaucrats just operate in this Israel can do no wrong. And one a little vignette, one extra one. Uh when I was still living up there in Washington, we we used to go to the Arlington Symphony and there one day at the intermission uh there's John Warner, white maned uh distinguished senator from Virginia, still there, head of the Armed Services Committee. And I said, "Oh, Rita, my wife, I'll go out there." And so I went
92:42out, he was all alone walking around the patio. I said, "Senator Warner." He said, "Wer, I said, Ray McGovern, no, if you know Washington, you know that nobody can risk not knowing somebody they should know." And I was all, you know, I had tie on. He said, "Oh, right.
93:00Yeah, I gave you my seat at the Baloy Balet in 1972 when we were both there for the start uh conclusion, the signing of the start agreement." Oh, that was you. He grabs me under the arm there and uh he's walking along with me. So, how are you doing now? Uh, Senator Warner, I just wanted to warn you. It looks like Israel is going to attack Iran.
93:25My God, I could get no blood flowing in this arm. The vice grip on him said, "What' you say?" I think the indications are really clear that Israel wants to and will be able to, unless somebody prevents it, attack Iran.
93:41No, no blood. And then soon as you see somebody else, oh, Bill, Bill, Bill, off to Bill. I mean, I felt that. I felt that fear from a guy who had he was head of the armed services committee. Let Rumsfeld in investigate torture done by Rumsfeld's people. I mean, he just So, what you have here is is a kind of a an ethos where you just can't do anything that that says bad things about Israel.
94:15And that's why I thought uh Kent, the uh the head of the uh terrorist or anti-terrorism, Joe Joe Kent, I thought he was so brave. for me not only said, "Look, there's no imminent threat."
94:29Okay? But besides that, this is how it went down. Israel did it. Israel, that's what I'm saying. Israel and its supporters in Washington. Whoa. Nobody says that and gets away with it. And of course, now he's under FBI investigation for >> Of course.
94:48>> Well, as Judge Npalitano says, Ray McGovern, you're always so generous with your time. I appreciate you uh accommodating our schedule and it's great insight and analysis you always bring to the show and uh we look forward to seeing you again soon my friend.
95:02Thank you so much for being with us.
95:04>> Thank you Jimmy for accommodating my schedule.
95:07>> Okay. All right. Uh we have to jump.
95:10We're going to go to Rumble right now and we're going to have Casey Puchan who's running against VC Revaswami for the governorship of Ohio and that should be a barn burner of an interview. We'll see you over at Rumble in just a few minutes. Thank you, Ray.
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