0:01No, I'm lining up here because but he would know. It wasn't No, I'm just doing this.
0:07He would like rewind the tape. No, I'm lining up here because watch how they work and I can get through there and I'll I'll have four sacks tomorrow.
0:17>> [snorts] >> Now picture a guy with all those physical skills, all those mental skills as well. Mhm. He's built like a Greek god, works his ass off.
0:26And he was living through the '80s where he might have >> [snorts] >> Oh god. for like every [ __ ] game.
0:32>> [laughter] >> I mean the amount the amount of stories I heard of of you know having to get woken up on the side of the road in his [laughter] car like dude, you have a game in like 5 hours.
0:41>> Yeah. Uh, all right.
0:43>> enough seeing Lawrence Taylor coming at you. Seeing cooked out Lawrence Taylor running straight downhill at you, that's like watching a [ __ ] man bear pig running in the wild. [laughter] Yep. Yep. And it's so you know, it it's kind of the you know, not not to the drug part, you know, but it's the it's the Mickey Mantle comparison. You know, look at Mickey Mantle with the drinking he did and the injuries he had. What if he didn't drink and and was healthy?
1:07What that guy could have accomplished and look at Lawrence Taylor.
1:10What could you have done if you were just straight up?
1:14May- [laughter] maybe. Although coke is >> not have been that bad. He might not have been that good as you say. Right.
1:19more than alcohol. Yeah. Like actually pulls you down.
1:22>> [laughter] >> That's the There is a difference there.
1:24I will say that. But he was I mean you watch that tape, it still don't even look real all these years later.
1:29>> Absolutely. [ __ ] greatest linebacker, greatest defensive player to ever play the game.
1:33>> No doubt. Right?
1:34>> Absolutely. All right. So one one thing I did want to tie back with the Upstein thing and then [clears throat] we'll move on cuz I want to talk about 9/11.
1:40You obviously like saw that that day and everything, but you know, as a long time law enforcement literal detective and someone who's done so many serious cases across all different kinds of crimes, horrific and everything in between, when you see someone like this, especially someone who is operating out of your own city getting cover [clears throat] later, after he's dead.
2:05>> [snorts] >> And the truth not being obfuscated by the most powerful people, regardless of who they are. Mhm.
2:12How much does that piss you off?
2:13>> It's infuriating. It's infuriating.
2:15Because here's why.
2:17Because both sides both sides will will will yell at their highest level the opposite.
2:27And yet there they are. Mhm. And that's what's infuriating. You know, you let you you get up there, you profess, you you preach, you scream, you yell, you come up with, you know, bills and law and all this, but yet look what you did. Mhm.
2:45On both sides. Because it depends who's where, right? Where the conversation is.
2:49Oh, you didn't do this. Well, you could do it now. No, we're not going to do that now.
2:54You know, so it there's so much it it's infuriating and it's never I mean, I'll make I don't think it's never going to come out what the whole realm of him was.
3:07>> I agree. It's not. I hate it, but I agree.
3:09>> Right. It's not. Names, books, ledgers, you know, whatever, you know, all that crap is not going to come out. Does the NYPD still have anything to do with that case whatsoever at this point?
3:22>> I don't know where you know, I don't know. The the the problem with him was there was so many different jurisdictions that his cases hit, which ended up having multiple agencies work together. You don't know what was focused here or just took place here that didn't take place on the island or Florida or something. So, to say what they just had here or what they still have open, I don't know. Mhm.
3:51All right, real quick, I got to go to the bathroom. When we come back, I want to talk about 9/11.
3:55>> [laughter] >> We'll be right back.
3:58All right, so September 11th, 2001, [snorts] you're obviously active in the NYPD.
4:05Were you in officially in narcotics at that time or That day I was actually in uh a robbery squad in the Bronx.
4:12Interesting. Okay, so before we get to the context of that, I assume you remember exactly where you were Oh, yeah. when you saw it or heard the first one.
4:21>> actually off that day.
4:23Uh and I was in the car. It was a normal day, gorgeous, you know, not a cloud in the sky.
4:30And I was in my car with my daughter who at the time was about 19 months old. And my parents were coming up to the house that day, just to visit, have lunch. So we were running out to get, you know, some food and rolls, you know, just normal normal morning.
4:47And I stopped at a red light. And it was weird that the the radio was down cuz me and my daughter were goofing around and, you know, laughing and and stuff.
4:56And I didn't hear any music on the radio.
4:59And I turned it up. And it was a DJ interviewing this woman.
5:04And she's upset. I'm like, "God, what's up?" And she starts talking about a plane that hit the World Trade Center.
5:12And the very first thing I did, I leaned out and looked out my windshield and went, "How did they screw that up?" Cuz it was gorgeous. It wasn't a cloud in the sky.
5:19Just thinking it was a prop plane or a sight-seeing, you know, plane.
5:26Because there wasn't any report of of anything different yet. Mhm.
5:30And I'm like, "Uh, all right." And I actually called a friend of mine who I knew was working down there.
5:37And got his wife on a friend of mine got his wife on the phone and said, "No, he's not even there. He's up in a different building. He's not" And I was like, "Okay, cool." You know, that was the end of it.
5:46And I pulled into the parking lot of the store we were going to.
5:50And the woman on the radio starts hysterically screaming.
5:53Just uncontrollably. And I'm like, you know, you're looking not like laughing, but you're like, "What's up?" You know, what What's going on now?
6:01And she got the words out that another plane hit the other building, the other tower.
6:06And I immediately got out of the parking lot. I Now I know what's up. Something's, you know, going on. And I called my partner, uh Carlos who I mentioned before.
6:16And he gets on the phone and goes, "Where are you?" And I said, "Well, I got Nicky in the car.
6:23Uh what's going on?" He goes, "We're under attack."
6:25He goes, "We got to get in." I'm like, "Okay, let me get settled." He knew my wife He knew my family. He knew, you know, we were very close.
6:33And my wife at the time was working in the city.
6:36And I called her. I said, "Listen, I don't give a crap if you get fired. Get in your car and get home."
6:42You know, just leave cuz you're not going to be able to get out of the city.
6:45This is going on. This is an attack. You know, you're in You're You're school where you are in between two bridges.
6:51Get out of the city right now.
6:53And she did. And I got the kids all together, dropped them off at my sister-in-law's, grab Carlos, and then we went into the city.
7:02Uh In between that time is is when the buildings fell. The Pentagon Yeah, the Pentagon got hit.
7:09All as we're getting down to the city.
7:12And we went right down >> [clears throat] >> to ground zero. Uh we didn't go to the precinct. We just We drove right down there.
7:19And we ended up parking on the FDR before the loop onto the West Side.
7:25Cuz you couldn't get near there. So, we just left the car and and ran up there. And it was the wildest [clears throat] scene you could ever imagine. It looked fake.
7:38Uh it was something you just You couldn't believe you were looking at. We were in those buildings all the time. I would I've been to the restaurant, you know, up there.
7:47You know, just it was part of New York.
7:49It was part of everything with New York.
7:53And now to watch seeing 210-story buildings just a pile of rubble and the buildings around it and just gone.
8:02And figuring out how well like what are we doing?
8:06What are we going to do? And making your way through a maze kind of get to get up on the pile took a a while, too.
8:15Uh and just coming up with what are we doing? And just peak, you know, picking pieces of of rock and moving it to see if you can see something or or whatever.
8:27What time is this? Like how cuz they it was 102 minutes they fell.
8:30[clears throat] They were both down by plane one hits 8:46, they're both down at what? Like 10:00 10:12 or something like Somewhere around there, yes. I actually have the I had the time somewhere of each thing that >> it's 10:32.
8:44>> Yeah.
8:45>> Yeah. So, like what >> [clears throat] >> So, we got down there probably I'm going to say probably around 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, you know, like around there.
8:58So, it took Yeah, all this has taken a while to get to that point.
9:02>> Because it Well, first of all, there was no way into the city.
9:04>> Right. So, we had to come up with this out of the way through Connecticut down to, you know, just a totally different way to get into the city cuz every highway and every bridge was was closed.
9:17So, we uh You drove up through Connecticut.
9:20>> Yeah, we we figured a way out to get down like 684 through Connecticut, you know, just a way to get into like Yonkers. I was going to say so you came through Katonah and all that. Yep. Wow. And then made our way down there.
9:35>> [clears throat] >> That's a long time to be in the car with your partner once you know your family's safe. Like that's all been taken care of. So now it's just the thought of it's chaos. Did Were you guys radioing into the precinct to see what guys were doing?
9:48>> nothing. We just went. Nothing.
9:50>> went.
9:51So in this 3-hour, 4-hour car ride or whatever, Mhm. you're listening to the radio, I assume. Yeah. Yeah, and you just get you know, reports of of what happened and then you hear about, you know, and then you can, you know, where we are, you can see, you know, the skyline, so you see the smoke. What's going through your head cuz it's a long time to process it?
10:12>> It probably wasn't that long. By the time I got the family situated and got to Carlos and all that, it probably wasn't a three, you know, it was probably a couple hours that we were in the car making our way down there by the time we got everything settled at home and then then picked them up. Uh but it was just realizing the world changed. And the reason and the one thing that really solidified that, and I've said this so many times on on other interviews, watching military planes fly around New York City.
10:43Was looking up and watching these things bank around New York going, "All right, this is not the same. The world's not the same anymore. Everything just changed."
10:53What? Seeing no commercial airlines and seeing military just flying all over Manhattan.
10:58That was a holy crap, you know, what really happened. And then the impact of it, obviously. Then you know, more things start settling in of of what happened that day and and then we were mostly in the car and then the rumors. The rumors were horrible. Like the entire first precinct of the NYPD are all dead.
11:18You know, this is gone and that's gone and we just grabbed a truck full of explosives on the GW Bridge. The rumors were wild that day of >> Is it so much noise that it almost it's just like you're numb?
11:33>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're just like you're listening to kind of half of it uh of what's coming through, but the rumors of of other things that were going on that day were pretty wild. And then we didn't hear obviously because we were in the car, we couldn't see it until like kind of the next day of like the jumpers and and what people were really going through in the buildings at the time while they were still up. You know, it didn't really resonate with anyone until like the next day, you know, who who didn't have access to a TV.
12:06Uh people who were home watching it saw it all.
12:09Uh And it was just, you know, it was a day you'll you'll never forget just like anyone who's, you know, the JFK assassination, the Challenger blowing up, Pearl Harbor, you know, all those historical events that people will never forget where they were, what they were wearing, who they were with.
12:27Uh And then I think we went down the next day. We went down there again uh to do whatever you could do.
12:36And then we [clears throat] started then things kind of settled down and the NYPD kind of got control of all right, we got to send a group here, we got to let's do this, we got to do that.
12:45And we got detailed to different things that were going on. You had the morgue, you had uh the landfill, which was in Staten Island, which was worse than ground zero.
12:56Uh going out there was worse than being downtown. Why? Because downtown was two ground zero was two piles to really see what was there.
13:10When you went out to to uh the landfill is when everything was being taken out of ground zero, put on barges and brought out there, and you had to go through it all. Mhm. So now the reality of victims and the reality of the devastation of bodies and body parts and all that uh hit you where you didn't see that at ground zero because of just the area. Covered. And now having to go through it and having, you know, you're on a line and then you have like three buckets next to you.
13:42You know, when certain things go in one bucket and certain things go in another.
13:46And and dealing with that on top of the air quality issue that went on of breathing in the crap that >> Oh. you know, uh that was at the landfill and being dressed like you're going to the moon, you know, and going through everything.
14:04Were you all masked up and everything?
14:06Not the first time we were out there.
14:08You know, when I got out there, I think the first day I was out there was September 14th.
14:13And we were dressed like this.
14:16You know, because no one really said anything to us and then we came back like a week later and everyone's dressed like astronauts. You're like, "What just happened?"
14:24Oh, well, there's an issue. Great. What about the other day?
14:27>> [laughter] >> Uh >> You get checked all the time?
14:30>> All the time. Yeah. Yeah. All the time.
14:32You know, so that was Yeah, yeah, that was a That was a rough day. When when you first get there though, arrived that afternoon on the 11th on the scene and you're just, you know, the city just got blown out.
14:45>> Yeah. And you're a a lifelong New Yorker growing up on the island at that point many, many years, you know, a decade over a decade in the NYPD. Like you're a New Yorker's New Yorker and you can't even process the fact that all this just happened, but you see, you know, the two staples along with the Empire State Building of the skyline of your city gone. Yeah. Dust, pieces, rubble.
15:19You know, is it similar to the shooting in '93 where everything's just kind of moving and you don't have time to process it right there or is there a moment where you're standing on the rubble cuz there's nothing to do at that moment where you're just like holy [ __ ] [ __ ] It It was the second. It was, you know, it wasn't anything you could prepare for obviously.
15:43When you get into the NYPD and and you have the, you know, you go to the range so you do fire your weapon so that's possibility. You go through tactical stuff so that's possibility of maybe happening one day. The majority of time it doesn't but that's out there. This, no.
16:00You couldn't have You couldn't have thought of this on your worst day of of planning something that could have happened to New York City. So there was a point in time where you get angry, mad, sad, upset, back to angry, back to pissed off, back to what are we doing? Like how we how we, you know, what's the response to this?
16:20Uh, and then starting to hear who did it. You know, Osama bin Laden's name came up pretty quick. Uh, you know, in in the conversation.
16:30Uh, you know, so all right, what are we doing? What When when do we get them?
16:34You know, all that. Uh, and like you said, it it it wasn't something you saw on the news. It wasn't a book you read.
16:42It happened to our city. Right.
16:45And that was the that was the the impact part.
16:49You knew a lot of people who died that day, I assume. [clears throat] >> I knew a few.
16:53Uh, good friend of mine from high school uh, died in there. Uh, a lot of the cops I didn't know personally but especially one of the ESU trucks that was from Manhattan North where we were.
17:10So three or four or five of them we've been on jobs together, you know, so I knew their faces, you know, had conversations with them.
17:19Uh you know, and things like that, but everyone, you know, then you start talking everyone knew somebody.
17:25Or knew [clears throat] someone who knew someone.
17:27You know, from that day. A lot of brave people that day who went who went up when things were Like God.
17:33>> quite literally like going down. Yeah.
17:35You know, and and again, not not having that though we talked about before, not having that, "Oh my God, what if hap No, just do it.
17:43Just do it. Yeah. You know. Uh and so many heroes and and civilian heroes uh that grabbed you know, people they worked with and got them downstairs.
17:55Uh you know, all all st- firemen, cops, you know, so many so many stories. Yeah.
18:02It's just it's also nuts to think about that it only took the time it did for both of the buildings to Oh. come down. I mean, those were monstrosities. Oh, yeah. I I you know, I even just the course of of the entire attack. I I've I've spoken in colleges and I'll ask students, "Hey, how long how long did 9/11 transpire?"
18:27Oh, a day, 12 hours, [snorts] 10 I'm like, "102 minutes."
18:33They're like, "What are you talking about?" 102 minutes.
18:35>> Yeah.
18:36From beginning to end.
18:37Didn't even United 93 crash before the towers were done going down?
18:43I think that was even before.
18:45>> Yeah. It might have been. That was >> Meaning Pentagon's hit, United 93's down, towers down, all 102 I think you're right.
18:52>> Yeah.
18:52>> Yeah. Uh I mean, listen, there there were so many bad things that happened that day, too, response-wise uh that, you know, we all wish could have could have been done better.
19:05Like what? The military response, you know, where to send jets, where to how had what, you know, the the visa the the problem, you know, and learning this from doing, you know, uh related cases to 9/11, you know, uh the visa program was exploited by the hijackers cuz they knew it was a uh you know, easy to exploit in the United States.
19:32Uh and they just walked in here, you know, uh Literally. the the problem with the information sharing FBI, CIA you know, in in the days or months, year a year leading up to it was historically bad uh and devastating because it's my football, you can't play you [laughter] know, type of crap Yeah.
20:00when the ramifications of the consequences never entered anyone's head.
20:08And and I say that all the time. You know, they all thought of the moment the instant and not, all right, if we don't this could happen.
20:19Or if this happens you know, A, B, and C didn't get done.
20:24You know, things like that. No one thought of that.
20:27Which again is is another infuriating part of of that day.
20:33Yeah, the the head of the counterterrorism unit in New York at the FBI, John O'Neill Mhm.
20:39you know, was famously somewhat of a controversial guy. It People either loved him or hated him.
20:44And he pissed some people off, but you know, if people haven't read the book The Looming Tower or seen the mini series on it, this is the guy who was pounding the table for years that they were coming and this was going to happen and this bin Laden guy was a huge problem and no one listened, including the CIA and Alec Station, who actually might have agreed with him, but just hated him so much that they let the personal aspect get in the middle of it to the point that they didn't as you said they didn't share any information and things that could have been stopped or people that could have been tagged
21:21that ended up being involved in the hijacking weren't and probably the coldest and worst [ __ ] post 9/11 quote I heard from one of our guys involved with the situation was at the I believe it was at a 9/11 commission hearing they had Michael Shore who was I think the head of Alex Station officially at CIA they had him in the testimony and for people that don't know John O'Neill was fired retired from the FBI about three or four weeks before 9/11 very ironically and in a sinister nature as it would turn out was took the job as the head of security at the World Trade Centers and so the very thing that he had predicted
22:10[clears throat] for so long he died in the towers that day trying to help people and so fast forward to Michael Shore being in front of what I believe was the 9/11 commission he was asked about John O'Neill who he didn't like they didn't get along but he [snorts] like he had been asked about whether he liked him or not or something like that and he was like well no and all that and then he piped in and corrected the record because they said they they just said like you said you didn't like him and he goes no actually I said the only good thing that came out of that day was that the two towers fell on him
22:47and when I heard something like that said after the fact just like the lack of respect is [ __ ] that's one thing but >> [clears throat] >> the fact that there was a hatred that deep and that bad of people who were supposed to be on the same team reeks to me of a culture that was so [ __ ] rotten that a million heads need to roll for that. And the fact that someone would be that egotistical to say something like that in that moment, I mean, [ __ ] you, dude.
23:16>> Yeah. Yeah, it was gross. You know, and and the more information that that came out in the years later made it that much, you know, made everyone mad that much more angry uh with what could have been done. And when you look at it at the time when it could have been shared it would have been easy. Yeah. They knew where they were. Mhm. I mean, it wasn't, you know, they had their names in the phone book. The cars were registered in their names. Bank accounts were in their names. They didn't hide anything. Mhm.
23:49They didn't [clears throat] hide a thing. You know, there was this wasn't See, this is this is one thing I I've I've told people. This was not a clandestine plan.
23:59It wasn't. They didn't cover anything up.
24:01They They went online. They researched flights. They went to, you know, flight training schools. They didn't do it in the cover of darkness or with different names. They were themselves.
24:12There was nothing that was hidden. You know, so if you backed it up with the information that they had especially, you know, with the Kuala Lumpur part and then, you know, getting into LA and San Diego would have been would have been easy.
24:26Would have been easy, but it was so, like you said No, my ball, we're going to, you know, we got this. Right. crap which is never works out when you hear that line.
24:39No.
24:40>> [snorts] >> But when you see it that open that's why so many people at home go, "Huh?"
24:45>> Yeah, of course.
24:45>> There's people who wanted this to happen. And I And I And I get that.
24:49Yeah.
24:49>> But you So, if you're there that afternoon, by the way, were you there like when Building 7 went down? Did you see that?
24:54>> We No. We That was afterwards. We got there, uh >> What do you think of that?
24:59It's another one that's, you know, I don't get.
25:04>> [laughter] >> I just, you know, uh uh I didn't spend a lot of time thinking of it because it's it's I don't [snorts] know.
25:11And and, you know, I I'll be completely honest. I don't know how, why, when that all took place.
25:21That's one of those Mhm.
25:24you know, moments of of it uh The thing that Here's the problem with with just with that you're just building seven.
25:34And you just said it.
25:36When you have organizations, entities, agencies, whatever, that just don't tell you the damn truth. They're for just what Hey, yeah, we blew it We blew it up so we it did it didn't fall. That's all you That's all you had to say. Mhm.
25:48>> [clears throat] >> That's I mean, if that's what you did, then just say you did that.
25:51>> Just yeah. Yeah, we got we got a tech team in there. We blew it down before it fell and killed more people. Yeah.
25:58Done.
25:58>> That would be too easy.
25:59>> Done. That's what I mean. You know, instead of oh, well, no, it's this. No, it's this. Then you get the cover-up you like you know is always worse than than the crime.
26:08And if you just did something that led to that falling down, then just tell everyone. When when secrets are are told and non-truths are told is when conspiracies lose their mind and just take on a life of their own instead of just telling the truth. Yeah.
26:25And to people at home, like, we've seen real conspiracies play out on a massive scale, especially over the last 10 years, that then people just openly lie to you about, whether it be some of the stuff with COVID or, you know, which was on a global scale, or the stuff with Epstein. So, it's hard not to think that way about well, what you know, what else are they lying about?
26:46>> Well, right. And that's the very first question that comes up. I mean, look at, you You even go back to JFK.
26:52>> [snorts] >> Why did That's where the the term conspiracy theory started.
26:58>> And why? Because no one said anything.
27:00>> [laughter] >> So, people's imaginations just go and go and go and now in this day and age, it's it's 10 times worse because now all you got to do is get on TikTok and say one thing and it's over. Yep.
27:1410 million [laughter] views, you're good.
27:16That's it. Hey, this is what I think because blah blah blah for 35 seconds on a clip and that's it. I think it's also unfortunately it creates the opposite effect because the way you can drown out truth of conspiracy is by flooding the zone with a lot of noise. Yeah. Just every [ __ ] thing.
27:34>> Right. It's the worst possible thing you can think of and then, you know, people just get exhausted and move to the next thing.
27:40>> Right. And then it gets to a point where you can't tell the truth. That's right.
27:44You know, and that's what they get you amped up with. You know, oh, let's see how this play whatever the conversation is. It gets to a point where you can't now go, well, this is what really happened cuz no one's going to believe you.
27:59You had a very interesting post-9/11 though >> [clears throat] >> with what ended up happening with your career. I did. Because, you know, obviously and thank you for covering like what it felt like in that moment.
28:10It's always a pretty hollow thing when or not hollow uh What's the word I'm looking for? Uh like [ __ ] I just blanked out. I hate when I do that. I had a good word for that. But it's always like like a a harrowing.
28:23That's what I wanted to say. It's always a harrowing thing when I have people from different perspectives that day who saw it in different ways yep describe [clears throat] how they processed that.
28:31You know, it's it's it definitely still hits years and years later. It's not stuff you can unsee. But at [clears throat] some point there, I don't know if it's a week, a couple weeks, month, or something, there's this task force set up that involves at least some aspects of NYPD and you're one of the few guys who are chosen to be a part of this. So, what what was it and what did this look like?
28:54So, how the Joint Terrorism Task Force is actually, you know, was in existence started in 1981 when a series of bombings would take place around the city by a group the FALN, uh you know, targeting police stations and you know, a whole ton of stuff. So, and bank robberies that were taking place. So, that's when it started. Then after when 9/11 happened, it became this enormous monster.
29:22And the Joint Terrorism Task Force in New York City ended up becoming the largest in the country. You know, each each FBI office has JTTF, but depending on the manpower, it is what it is. You can have 10 guys, you can have 20 guys, you can have 3,000 guys like in New York where you have 65 different agencies that are on one task force.
29:45Uh three different branches, international branch, domestic branch, and intel branch. You know, that's how large this became. And the way I got down there uh was actually I got a call from a sergeant I used to work with on patrol who was a sergeant down in the task force. And and you know, we stayed in touch. He knew where I was working uh you know, over the years. He was a great guy and called uh the 52 one day while I was there and just said, "Hey, you know, what are you doing?" And I said, "You know, we were doing something." He's like, "You need to get down here tomorrow.
30:24Meet me on the corner uh in front of 26 Fed. I'm going to give you a packet, fill it out, get it all done, and get it back to me."
30:31And of course I was like, "All right, why Mike, what's up?" He goes, "No, you need to get down to the task force."
30:38And you got to remember you think at the time JTTF was not a place you put in to go.
30:44It was very elite. It was very Not a lot of guys were there.
30:49You didn't even ask to go there. Like, "Hey, how do I get there?" There were There was no applications. There was You know, there was none of that. That's how like revered it was. So, when Mike said task force, I'm like, "Which one? Like, what do you mean?" I didn't even think of it.
31:03And then he's like, "No, JTTF. You You know, you need to get down here." So, I said, "Okay, great." I met him down there the next day.
31:11Did all the paperwork, did everything, did the interviews, you know, and all that and and then got down there.
31:16Uh And to be asked to go down there, especially after 9/11 and I knowing what we were going to be doing, not only you know, doing a worldwide, you know, investigative teams, you know, that we had, your job was to make sure that they didn't happen again. Right. You know, that was our biggest That was our biggest calling.
31:38That's not to happen again. And you're going to do everything in your power to make sure it doesn't happen again. And all your investigative knowledge and experience and all that is is why everyone is down there. Uh with cases you did and investigations you did and now you're going to make sure this doesn't happen again. And that was our goal. What What was the first role you were given there? Like, what it [clears throat] What specifically was like your job?
32:03>> I think the very first thing when we all got down there was was running down the leads that were coming in because after, you know, even a year or so after 9/11, you were still getting this car's parked here, this guy's taking a picture of this, this guy, you know, so you were running down leads like crazy all day. What kind of tech were you working with back then? I mean, now we know we got [ __ ] camera everywhere.
32:27>> lot. Right. There were There wasn't I mean, you know, still 2001, 2002, 2003, it wasn't where we are now, you know, by any stretch. You know, so you were still having people take, you know, physical pictures of the Empire State Building, which a million people did a day just because it's the Empire State Building and had no nefarious actions to it at all, but they're calling people calling the FBI saying, you know, "Oh my god, someone's taking picture of the Empire State Building." Okay. But that generated a lead that you had to go, you know, get get and then then as you started going you got on
33:01specific teams with specific missions and specific areas of the world or groups that you were into, you know, Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, and Al-Qaeda 2 team, you know, they were all different teams that that you got assigned to with different groups that were out there.
33:17Was the purpose of being assigned to [clears throat] them tracking them down to track back towards the 9/11 greater 9/11 investigation or was it all was it also or more to track down from a from a preventative measure the things that you were finding out from an intel perspective that they might be trying to do? Yeah, preventative. It was it was, you know, making sure that group and listen, every group, every terrorist organization, even today, New York's the number one target. Of course. You know, so was it going to be we had to make sure it wasn't a uh they're out doing us, we need to you know, outdo them, we need to do
34:01something bigger than 9/11, you know, so it was more preventative thing and keeping track of of these groups that were all over the world. I mean, it was the number of terrorist organizations that were operating around the world was mind-blowing, you know, and not knowing and not being in that world until you got down there and learning on the fly you know, all these groups and what they were all about and what they did, you know, you had to get caught up to speed pretty quick with everything they were doing uh depending on what team you were on.
34:32It's kind of like, you know, [clears throat] it's constantly looking at [ __ ] a million haystacks and trying to find the needle though. Mhm. Like you're dealing with the biggest city in the world. Yes, it's got a lot of resources around it now to try to protect it, but you know, breaking through breaking the seal and someone getting in there to do, you know, one dirty bomb Right. or something like that. Like you don't have like a my neck a magnetic force field around it that can stop that.
34:58>> How do you You don't have borders. You don't have I mean, you could drive you fly into somewhere drive to New York.
35:03You know, there was no How do you not lose your mind like thinking about all the possibilities all day?
35:08>> Yeah. I mean, and that was part of it.
35:09It was you know, and that's why so so many people were so on top of their game because you couldn't make that mistake.
35:17You couldn't have a bad day. You couldn't overlook whatever. Uh getting, [clears throat] you know, people in the right places and source information was was big, too.
35:27But a bigger part became, you know, uh became part of the everyday work force as opposed to before 9/11 was the information sharing got much better. Mhm. And agencies started to work together and share information, have group meetings, and and uh you know, teams that were put together with in interagency uh communications and coordination.
35:53And that made it much better.
35:55Uh Cuz maybe something you had I didn't have and now we both have it. Right. You know, so that was really really important. How did you manage like jurisdiction with stuff cuz you're dealing with FBI maybe in some cases you're dealing with CIA? You know how it is. It's like >> Yeah. Uh I mean, we were we were unique because we were we were still all NYPD detectives, but we were, you know, given federal status under the marshals. Uh so we had federal powers, but we're still NYPD detectives.
36:26>> Wow. You know, so we had the same powers as an FBI agent, you know, to get information, to receive information, to read it, to to be in briefings, you know, all that. We all had top secret clearances, uh you know, and even some above that depending on what you're working on at the time. So, getting the information wasn't something that we were excluded from because we all had, you know, the the proper clearances. It was it was finding out the right information and getting the right information to to be actionable uh to something maybe you had working or something you heard or or whatever. But,
37:07the information sharing in the group uh work workload was much better than it was. And we were able to go, you know, and then you got to know people. You got to have relationships with people in in the agency or whatever say, "Hey, I need this." Or or what do you got on this? Oh, Tommy, okay, it's you, you know, and it became easier to get information.
37:31Uh And the the good thing was the way the FBI worked and the NYPD worked, if you had something going somewhere, you went.
37:40There was no uh let's get this, you know, briefed and let's get this cleared. And no, if I had to get on a plane to go to California, go. Mhm. Just go. What was it like suddenly I mean, you'd spent your whole career basically like in the city cracking down on all different stuff. What's it like to suddenly be like, you know, we're going to Somalia tomorrow?
38:01>> Yeah, it was that was bizarre. It was uh it was inviting, it was great because we didn't I mean, a day Listen, if you went to Jersey for a day, that was a good day. You know, if you if you worked in the Bronx and had to go to a Jersey department for a day, okay, great. Uh go over the bridge, go get something to eat in Jersey and have a meeting. Awesome.
38:23Uh you know, and now you're you're getting on a plane, you know, going overseas, and and working in an embassy, and you know, dealing with high-level people of power and influence, and political figures, and you know, ambassadors, and you know, all that.
38:40And you had to you had to be on top of your game. And and here's why, and I don't mean it I don't mean it that the NYPD is the end-all be-all. I I I don't want it to come across that way at all. But the NYPD detective is is looked upon as all right, you better know your crap.
38:59You better know what you're talking about. Don't walk in here and say I don't know.
39:02Uh and all of us believed in that and lived by that. So, we were able as detectives to go overseas and brief an ambassador.
39:13How many like NYPD detectives were doing that?
39:16>> [clears throat] >> We had we had about 100 detectives assigned to JTTF. But actually going overseas >> on what team you were. I mean, there were there were guys who did a lot of stuff. There were there was a a you know, there were certain guys who did a lot more than others. I mean, you know, let's be honest.
39:35You know, JTTF isn't any different than any place else.
39:38>> Sure. You know, uh you know, people that have the opportunity to do other things that others don't.
39:44Whether they make it themselves or it's just the case that they're working on.
39:48Uh but you know, that's what I said before, you know, in in earlier part of the interview, Julian was your communication skills.
39:57You know, you can't walk in somewhere and say I don't know. You know, "Hey, Detective Smith, what's this in this group? Uh let me get back to you." No, you you can't do that. Uh so, I just made it a point to just make sure I had everything I had. No matter And I never The good thing about me, I never got Oh my god about someone I was talking to. I didn't care who you were.
40:21You could be an ambassador, you could be the under secretary of state, the director of the FBI, director of the CIA. To me, you were just a guy. That's I love >> about. I love that. That was you're kind of answering this question cuz what I was [clears throat] going to ask you is was there ever, you know, you got thrown right into this and it's a whole different literal environment, you know, overseas stuff, whatever. Did you ever have a moment where there's like imposter syndrome? Like, what the [ __ ] am I doing? Like that that guy's in the CIA, you know?
40:50>> Oh, you had listen, you know, there were moments, don't get me wrong, that that you took a step back and went, "Whoa."
40:57Like, all right, this I'm not in the Bronx. Right.
41:01I'm not dealing with I'm not dealing with the crackhead on the corner. You know, this is this is someone who, you know, a group wants to blow the world up.
41:07>> Yeah. Uh and you can't be wrong. And the the delicate thing about what we were doing is what you say has a tendency to become policy somewhere.
41:20So, you better be right with the information you have.
41:24And when I say you can't walk in and say I don't know I mean that in a in a certain way. If you didn't know, you had to say you didn't know. You didn't make stuff up or or think or, "Hey, this is what I kind of think." No, you know, I'll let you I'll get that info for you in the next 10 minutes.
41:42How how would from like a source developing perspective in all these [clears throat] different countries just in general?
41:48You know, you spent your career developing sources on the streets of the city that you knew. You knew every [ __ ] thing that was going on, especially within your precinct and stuff. So, you knew who people were, you kind of knew where they stood and you knew how to build that relationship, to say nothing of the fact they all spoke your same language where most of them did.
42:04You know, now suddenly you're in all these different countries in all these different cultures wherever the investigation may lead.
42:10How are you, an NYPD detective, successfully developing sources and winning their trust? Like, what did you have to change up to do that? Exactly the opposite of what you just said. I didn't change a thing. I didn't look upon See, I never made and and that was one of the things I made sure of. I never made something out to be more than it was. Mhm. And I looked at everything as and I honestly I looked at every case I did as a narcotics case in the Bronx.
42:40What would I do? What would I do then?
42:42What would I do with that case here? And I just did it the same way. I never Oh my god, this guy wants to whatever. I didn't. It was a bad guy I need to get.
42:52Humans are humans.
42:53>> That's it. Mhm. And it was a case.
42:55And I never, you know, and that's why I kind of to this day kind of pride myself, I guess, you know, to a point of not getting stressed out about stuff.
43:05And I didn't then because I just thought of it as what it was. It's case. It's a bad guy. We got to stop him from doing this just like I would stop a guy from killing a family in the Bronx. Okay, same thing.
43:17I'm going to go about it the same way and a lot of times maybe with an exception here and there because of the amount of resources we had in the in the federal government as opposed to just doing something in a precinct in the Bronx. But always kind of like, okay, we need this, obviously.
43:36We need this and we need this.
43:38Let's just get this and and see what else we need to stop this. You know, so uh that's kind of just the way I did it.
43:46I didn't make more of it than than it was.
43:49Now, there's a lot you did in these years that remains classified that you're not allowed to talk about publicly to this day. Mhm.
43:57Is there one kind of story or investigation that you are allowed to talk about that stands out? Well, going I mean, not to get into the operational uh uh weeds of it, but going over to Afghanistan as an NYPD detective was odd. In '09, right?
44:18>> In 2009. This is like the [ __ ] Afghanistan is going on. Crazy. Yeah, it was uh it was going on and you know, got sent over there on a on a case we were doing, uh a kidnapping case we were doing, uh that someone got grabbed over there. A US citizen that we had to go get. Was it in New York? Well, I don't know if I'm allowed to ask that. Were you getting it because it was a New Yorker in your jurisdiction?
44:43>> a New York area-based >> Okay. Got it.
44:45>> situation. How's that? That's good.
44:48>> [laughter] >> Uh you know, and as as different as it was, it was that took a lot of, you know, if I ever thought a lot about a case and the ramifications of it and what was really going on, it was that because it wasn't normal.
45:09You know, like I just said before, I wasn't going to the Bronx, I wasn't going to Brooklyn. I'm going to a war zone and I'm a detective. I'm not in the military.
45:17You know, I was in the military.
45:19Am I tactically okay in in what I can do? Yeah, I was comfortable with my tactics and all that, but it was mentally it was mentally getting ready for it and mentally saying, all right, stuff can go bad in an absolute blink and I'll never know it. Right.
45:41>> [laughter] >> You know, I I'm not going to know if something blows up right next to me cuz I'm going to be gone in in a millisecond and that's going to be it.
45:49So, to get mentally prepared for that was a challenge.
45:54Uh but I remember we landed in a country, stayed there for for like a day, uh cuz it was we couldn't take a direct flight to Afghanistan. Then we had to take a like kind of a commercial flight. US Air wasn't going right there?
46:10No, they just no. [ __ ] There was like and then like a contracted flight into into Kabul.
46:17And on that flight is when I just said, "Okay, I'm good.
46:22I'm good. We're ready. I got this. I have a game plan. I know what I want to do. I'm going to run it like every other case I've done in my career.
46:30I'm not going to do it any different.
46:32I'm good. Let's go." Any of the military guys on the ground in these places every ever like kind of give you trouble or were they like >> loved it. They're like, "Oh, you know, you you're dealing with special operators who don't who do the most wildest crap in the worst situations in the worst places of the world you can imagine.
46:51And for for them to stand in front of you and you tell them, "Yeah, I'm a NYPD detective." They're like, "Holy crap.
46:56Hey, what are you doing?" And they're like all into it. You're like, "Really?"
47:00Mhm. Like, do you know what you do?
47:02>> [laughter] >> You're like You're like, you know, your team is like the New York Yankees to me.
47:07And you're worried about me. You know, it's just, you know, it is. You know, and and that's what I mean by understanding what you represent as a detective in the NYPD, you know, and how revered you are and how people look at you. You can't overlook that.
47:25Uh because if you do, then you're you you just you're going to look like an idiot.
47:30You know, and and people aren't going to respect you. You have to understand what you represent. And when you have someone that's a a tier operator going, "Oh my god, dude. Like, tell me a story." Like, "What?"
47:43>> [laughter] >> Like, I'm going to tell you a story of like, you know, doing a search warrant and busting them. And they love that.
47:50That's cool.
47:50>> You know, so those relationships that we we got to, you know, talk to a few of the guys and them realizing who, you know, where I worked was was pretty cool. And you know, we take for granted that just because I'm from New York doesn't mean everyone else is. Here's a serious badass tier guy who's from a like town somewhere in America with 600 people in it.
48:14>> Right. You know, who's seen NYPD on TV.
48:17Yeah. You know, and now one standing in front of them. You know, so that's that was kind of cool.
48:23And you and like you said in all these different countries you're working with all different types of Oh, yeah.
48:29>> special forces operators. Be it Deltas, SEALs, stuff like that.
48:32>> Yeah. And combined, you know, on on certain task forces that set up, you know, and all that. And How many years did you spend on this task force, by the way? I didn't ask that.
48:41>> 17.
48:4317? [snorts] So, you were from '01 to '18 you were doing this? Yeah. No, from I got in in 2003 to 2020. I got when I retired.
48:52>> Holy [ __ ] >> Which was not the norm. There were like, I think three or four of us that were left there with that amount of time.
49:01That's why.
49:01>> So, 17 years.
49:05It's got to take some years off your life doing [ __ ] like [clears throat] this.
49:08>> It did. And you know what? It got to a point and you're you're exactly right.
49:12It got to a point where I had I I just had enough of the traveling.
49:19And and a particular case I was doing that I was all over the world and just traveling a lot and and down in DC and it was a lot.
49:28Not the not the case I just talked about, another thing. Right. That was really really heavy on me.
49:36Uh I mean, I I I didn't know what time it was anymore.
49:42I [clears throat] didn't know what time zone I was in. My watch was always different. I look, you know, when you get to a point where where people at work would look at you and go, "Yo, Smitty, you all right?" I'm like, "Yeah, why?" "Well, you look like you haven't slept in 4 days."
49:56You know, that adds up. And, you know, got to a point where I was like, "You know what?
50:02Time out. I need to stop doing this, go to a different team, you know, who didn't do as much stuff because it was it was it was a lot." The kids were getting older.
50:13You know, I had other responsibilities with coaching and and all that like we discussed that I was not going to stop doing for anything. I mean, I would I would fly home from overseas, land, and go do a tournament like that weekend. 17 years of it being your [clears throat] primary job, literally at like the tip of the spear for your own city to prevent another 9/11 is a lot to carry around in your head every [ __ ] day for that long like at any point, but for that long.
50:44That's wild. Yeah.
50:45>> It's impressive you did that for that long. And it what you know what? It But the thing was the thing about it is I loved it. It wasn't like it got you know, it can you get to a point like I just explained like, "Hey, I need a break. I can't do this." is different than not loving what I was doing anymore. Two different two totally different things.
51:03You know, your body's your body, you know, and there's only so much you put your body through.
51:08You know, after a while where before it starts going, "Dude, >> [laughter] >> you know, you need to take a break or I'm going to fall apart."
51:16Uh you know, just physically not you know, nothing bad. I never again never looked to do anything else or you know, it was just it was just time.
51:27And then uh you know, then the same thing with retiring. You know, then you did that a couple years later.
51:33>> 2020.
51:36Oh, so you retired right when you got out of this pretty much. Yeah, I retired from that unit. And then you retired from the NYPD as a whole all at once.
51:43>> Yeah. Yeah.
51:45Uh And I can see why. It's a lot of years in there, but you know, that's going from 100 to 30 was a nice round number. Uh, it was, you know, when You know, you know, you hear it all the time. You've heard it probably a million times on your show. You know when you know. Mhm. You know, it's just you know when, all right, enough.
52:04Uh, I'm still healthy.
52:06I still got it in my brain. I'm still, you know, I could still do stuff, you know, so get out now before, again, we talked athlete, one more year. Right. One more year and then something stupid happens.
52:18Uh, you know, so it was just it was a good It was a good time to go. Did you have some high octane moments in some of these countries where it was like, oh [ __ ] something's going to go down right now over the years? Yeah.
52:31Uh, there was a there was a couple in Afghanistan uh, that were eye openers uh, that I'm glad we got out of. He cannot talk about that because he can't.
52:41>> [laughter] >> And uh, Wild stories. I heard a couple.
52:44Yeah. Uh, but just, you know, thankful for who I was with, you know, because if you're not with the right person, those situations could have went dramatically uh, in another direction and bad. Uh, so I I just I was so uh, fortunate to be with people I was with over there.
53:07And some I still talk to all these years later.
53:09>> That's cool. Uh, you know, and stay in touch with uh, you know, about trips up to Bagram and car rides and you know, again, not thinking too much of it. Let's just get there. Uh, you know, helo rides, you know, all all stuff like that.
53:25Uh, you know, we had one that I could tell you it was you know, we took a small plane when we were driv- going down to Kandahar.
53:33And it's a small like >> [laughter] >> It's like four seats in the thing.
53:38You know, and the [snorts] guy who's operating the plane kind of looked at us and went, "Listen, uh if there's an emergency >> [clears throat] >> Dude, >> [laughter] >> Don't mind the duct tape on the wing.
53:47>> of right right. You know, if something bad happens, I I that's the door. That's all we got. You know, and you're like, "Okay." You know, that's about [clears throat] it.
53:56Uh you know, so things like that. But but the crew and the people I got to meet, especially over there, uh are still special. I still talk to.
54:06Uh but throughout my career, I was just absolutely blessed with people I got to work with.
54:14>> Right. I mean, you know, the list is endless of of the the good people who had the same mindset as me, the same drive, the same energy, the same, you know, a either, you know, in the task force, we're not going to let this happen again, or hey, we're not going home until we catch this bad guy.
54:34You know, just things like that. And And guys I I stayed up with for for 2 days, you know, chasing guys for a double homicide around Scranton, Pennsylvania.
54:43You know, uh you know, >> interesting.
54:46>> stories like that. Uh yeah, Dwight, there were two two occasions I stayed up for 2 days.
54:53Because, you know what? That was my drive. And I And I tell this all the time.
54:59You want like visuals of what drives people?
55:03Whenever I was chasing someone, like I knew they did it, and we just had to find them, I never stop, and my partner Carlos used to get pissed at me all the time. I wouldn't eat, I wouldn't sleep, I wouldn't stop, because I had this vision of the bad guy sitting on his couch watching TV laughing at me that I couldn't find him.
55:24I had that absolute vision in my head that this guy was sitting there watching TV going, >> [laughter] >> "You don't know where I am."
55:32And that used to get me, man. You s- You've seemed like a guy all day. Like I mean this is a compliment, like you enjoyed the rush of like the chase. Oh god, yes.
55:43Oh, adrenaline junkie to the end.
55:45Absolutely. How do you How do you go from doing that though for 30 years to turn it off?
55:51Uh it took a little while to get used to and I and I and I tell the story I I I equate it all the time to people that it's like walking forwards for 30 years and then someone telling you you got to walk backwards, all right? You'll You'll stumble and you'll fall, but you'll eventually get it. And that's kind of what it's like.
56:12You know, just nope, walk backwards now.
56:14Like, oh crap. You know, it's going to take a little while and it did, you know, when when you see stories or you hear stories on the news or, you know, you hear stories from guys you worked with, you're like throw the cave on, let's go.
56:29>> [laughter] >> Uh but then, you know, then then you kind of just take a breath, go, you know what?
56:35Did that and and had a blast doing it.
56:38And I had the time of my life. Like I told you, man, I'd do it I'd do it again tomorrow.
56:41>> That's awesome. Well, your your storytelling's amazing and you have your own podcast as well, the Gold Shield Show. Yes.
56:48>> Which we'll link down below and then you also have a product that is basically like a replacement for pepper spray, too, right?
56:55>> Yes, we do. Uh it's called It's called Impact. And Dan and I, my partner on the show, on Gold Shields, uh who was my partner in the gang unit and in terrorism task force and he was my sergeant. Uh so that's how we hooked up doing the show.
57:11But we came up with this idea of an alternative to pepper spray because no one uses pepper spray. Cops on the street hate it.
57:19It's horrible to use on people cuz it has an impact on your respiratory system. You're spending hours trying to drain their eyes of of crap. So we came up with Impact and what that does is it's the opposite of pepper spray. It is a extreme eye irritant. Sprayed in your eyes, you cannot open your eyes. You can't see, and it burns. But, there is no cross-contamination. I can I can spray you and jump right on you.
57:48Nothing's getting on me.
57:50I can use it inside a car, in an elevator, in this room, and the only person that's affected by is the person you're spraying. So, it's just more targeted, basically.
57:59>> stream. And And people can buy this Absolutely. Online.
58:03>> Carryimpact.com is our website.
58:06>> let's link that down below, for sure.
58:07>> Uh and there's the on the law enforcement side, you know, like I said about the cleanup, once you get the person under control, you got to have a bottle of water, pour it over their eyes, and in about 30, 40 seconds, you're fine, completely back to normal.
58:21>> Wow. With no impact on on anything.
58:25All right.
58:25>> Uh there's an invisible UV dye marker in it, so you can hit someone with it and find them later with a black light. Uh they're >> God, that's such a cop thing to put >> covered in it.
58:36But, you'd be amazed how many don't have that. You know, so we put it in ours, and it's making its way around the country in in different departments, security services. Uh hospitals love it because they can use it in an in an emergency room or waiting room. And no one's being affected by it except the person you're spraying. And our bottles are nitrogen propelled. So, it's not air. So, our smaller cans can hit you from like 12 to 14 ft away. Ooh, that's nice. Nice little guy.
59:04>> have a key chain, you know, for the public that, you know, joggers and runners can have right in their pocket, uh that they can use. And it's it hurts, it works. That's for sure. Uh I've had it done to me many, many times, unfortunately.
59:20>> dummy on it.
59:21>> Oh, I had to. You know, it's ours. You know, we have to You have to test it out, and uh But, it's focused. It hits the one person, that's it.
59:27>> it's a hard stream. Like I could I could walk around here and spray it all over this room and you wouldn't even know it.
59:33Woah. Until it hit your eyes.
59:37Uh And and it's it's working, you know, and and departments are going to it and loving it. And like I said, it's making its way around and and we're we're pretty proud of it. That's awesome. All right, well, we'll link it down below. I appreciate all the stories today. You're an amazing storyteller. Hell of a career, man. That's a interesting pathway you took.
59:56>> It was fun, but thank you so much. It was a it was really a privilege to be here and being asked to be here. Thank you so much.
60:01>> That's it. My bedroom's right there.
60:03It's not that serious, you know what I mean? It's 7 ft outside the studio, but [laughter] I'm honored that that that you're happy to be here. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge huge help.
60:16And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.
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